[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about the claim that it was deliberately engineered to create controversy?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've thought about this a lot during this discourse.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean like, I actually find it a really interesting conversation in general about like the pop star and its purpose in culture because I think especially for the female pop star, it does feel like a rate of passage or like it does feel almost built into the title to have some sort of controversial breakthrough.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like Madonna really helped to pioneer that concept, but like totally every time Madonna released an album there was like some sort of outcry about [SPEAKER_01]: Transgression I guess and I think that it just feels like a foundational element of the pop star and what they represent in society and I think that it always has to do or almost always has to do with some sort of sexual transgression [SPEAKER_01]: that feels taboo, that they're like breaking.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that there is a deliverance for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: People also forget like, you know, these people are the fall women for like a massive team of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a creative director that's our direction.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's like actual director that's photographer.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's like costume design.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's like makeup at all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't always have like total executive control over their image.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think more and more they do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ever since like the Brittany discussion, but like yeah, I don't necessarily think someone's sitting at the end of some long table like you're bringing their hands together and being like ha ha like and we're gonna make this the most evil malicious like taboo You know cover of all, but I do think that there's a bit of a desire to like push an edge I think there's one of like gay men in this industry to who were like, let's just make like you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know I can just imagine a team of like really talented gay men sitting around and being like let's just [SPEAKER_01]: push this.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's added to raise board room.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's all women.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Fab.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I think that like we forget that pop stars are products like pop culture is yes, they're artists, but like they are [SPEAKER_00]: products for mass consumption and I think I mean even like Taylor Swift had that documentary where like we got to look inside like her team discussing whether or not she could like write a post condemning a Republican senator and if you look at like she's probably the most powerful pop star you could imagine if you look at like this board of people who are like behind every single individual move obviously yeah there is a team sort of [SPEAKER_00]: helping work on Sabrina Carpenter's image and I think that like it was probably someone else's clever idea to have her do this which like ultimately she looks really good on this cover well and so later in that same conversation bugby continues [SPEAKER_00]: She says, at the same time, I am surprised it has been so effective at doing so for garnering controversy.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of hard for images to break through nowadays.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, why do we think that this image broke through?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because when we do think about all the different kinds of, like, sexually charged, I guess, like imagery that comes out of pop stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why did this one stick?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's such a good question.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that there's so many, it's like a multibillion thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that there's kind of the cultural atmosphere right now, which is generally pretty strange.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think it's very, it's a very fraught moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're all feeling extremely threatened, not all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some people are really happy about it, but like, you know, I think that [SPEAKER_01]: We're all feeling pretty strained and pretty threatened, and especially for women, pretty like, on guard.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that we're kind of quick to jump out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that we're looking at something to displace our anger onto, and I do think that this was a very easy thing to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying necessarily, it's completely stupid, that I disagree with it necessarily, but I do think that we feel like we have no control.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's lash our anger out at something that feels like an easy target.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also think that there was like a predisposed, like we just discussed, feeling about Sabrina Carpenter in general with her past controversies, and also with her body and the way that people respond to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's that element as well, like people are like, oh, you know, she sexualizes herself, you know, and that is kind of the going logic with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think those two things really came together in that moment, that [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's fair that we're in a period of frustration about like maybe where feminism is at or where it might be going like a fear of where it might be headed.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that that's maybe where that was coming from.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think even just like on a level of the image itself, like something that really [SPEAKER_00]: do it out when I look at it is what an aesthetic and tonal departure it felt like for her like I think just like even within her own repertoire it feels a bit more shocking not because the image is like that shocking but because although she's had these kind of like more sexual like themes or lyrics and everything like it's always been presented to us in this kind of [SPEAKER_00]: can be pastel girlish over the top way that feels like theatrical whereas the sexual undertones of this image are a bit more serious they're a bit more sleazy like we're not used to seeing her photograph in this kind of a position although like we've seen her [SPEAKER_00]: do in a whole array of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's just something about this that feels almost like disingenuous, which was kind of my first impression when I saw it, just knowing what her music sounds like, the themes that she explores, who her audiences, and I'm not talking about children.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just talking about like the Gorley setless and disappearing a carpenter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What her vibe has been?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like her vibe is a bit more pitch, and this feels a bit more, it's almost sophisticated.

[SPEAKER_01]: But not in like, oh, I think it's so, but you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: The flash photography, the kind of paired downness, the fact that I were used to seeing her with some kind of pastel or sparkly backdrop, and here we're seeing her with these dull curtains and carpet.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit cooler, like, you know, that platform.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of has an edge to it that, you know, I would love to be photographed with a kind of flash photography.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's something about that like American parallel look that is much as if you want to be critical of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still feel drawn to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that is my ideal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if someone were to take photos of me like that, it's kind of what I really like how it looks visually.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not coming from my own conditioning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I genuinely just visually, I mean, it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I genuinely visually like that look in an image.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think, yeah, maybe she's going for a bit of an edge that like, Addison Ray now has, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think so, but like what I thought was really interesting is that like, I think historically, like, she's not really been someone who's jumped on trends.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, last year during Brat Summer, every single pop star, people who have like, like, legacies that way outdated, Charlie X the X is.

[SPEAKER_00]: showed up with looks that were so heavily inspired by what she was doing that it was embarrassing and I found it kind of boring like Charlie does it because it's just her bits it's kind of like a boy don't like necessarily interesting I don't really like that look personally but I just like I was always like impressed that Serena Carpenter was so antithetical to that and like remained loyal to [SPEAKER_00]: her thing that she created for herself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me I guess so she's released a first single to the album.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's called Man Child.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of got a bit of a country twin to it, but it feels really aligned with what we've heard from her in the past year.

[SPEAKER_00]: The video is like seventies inspired, very like pastel, like none of that aligns with [SPEAKER_00]: this image.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this image doesn't actually feel like the proper cover image for the album that I expect will hear.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do we know who the creative director, like who the enthusiastic director, who the photographer are?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's like a queer photographer.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not like she worked with the Terry Richardson type.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like she was like, I'm going to do like the sleazy thing and work with this kind of weird male photographer.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like she was work.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think they were being referential to that era because like that's kind of [SPEAKER_00]: back in fashion, fast photography's back in fashion, and it does look good.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess I just, yeah, it's incongruous with her aesthetic sensibility.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's hard to deny the like orchestrated controversy accusations when it feels like this was like a very deliberate choice and one that doesn't really align with her incredibly well crafted personal brand.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do think it's deliberate for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't necessarily think it was like maliciously deliberate, but I think that they would only play upon some sort of [SPEAKER_01]: have you element origin trying to pivot maybe?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well and so the image like many people have defended it on the grounds of like satire and I I actually do think that you know [SPEAKER_00]: her being on off horse, the album is called Man's Best Friend, and if you've ever listened to any of her songs, you know that she's not actually a submissive person towards men, like, literally, like, she's never embraced that.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's not, like, a Lana Del Rey type.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her song, I'm a very cute again, is like, so...

I don't know, so it was kind of like whipping.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I found it very...

Yeah, she is a...

[SPEAKER_00]: A song about Shawn Mendez called Dumb and Poetic, where she's just like, yeah, you jerk off to lyrics of Leonard Cohen, and you like you think you're interesting because you do mushrooms, but like, you're an instrumental in Mendez.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so funny because, well, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We all know why that's funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: She loves gay men.