[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where did the boobos come from?

[SPEAKER_01]: I hate to say, I think I'm incredibly, actually, I don't hate to say it, but it's just weird to be completely out of the loop that, like, by the time I learned what the boobo was and the Roberts was posting about them and they were like over it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you're weirdly on the pulse because you're on Twitter and so you'll know but something before me but then often you're so behind and I know I can't keep up with your social media consumption because I actually just I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know that I'm behind on everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually stopped using Twitter like I never check it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's definitely why.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I know anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Take talk detox and like Instagram Reels are so late all over the place and they're not like viral really in the same way like the viral ones that show up on my feet are some goats with big asses or something and I'm like why is this being shown to me?

[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely definitely.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also, it's just like the backwash of TikTok basically.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is the murky backwash.

[SPEAKER_00]: Food bits and all floating in there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it was an Instagram reel of Emma Roberts doing a libubu unboxing that maybe go like I obviously seen those little freaks around because they've been around.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually did see that too and I really was like oh [SPEAKER_00]: That's brutal.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's brutal for several reasons.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think Geek culture is made it really appropriate for adults to play with toys.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, yes, embrace your inner child, be whimsical, but sometimes as to the point where I'm like, alright girl, maybe they're for her kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's for her, and I was, I was for her right now, and there's, I think it's pop, it's the name of the store, and it's for another place as they sell a boobo, and there's a crazy line outside of it in the middle of the day, yesterday.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the new Sunny Angel, and Sunny Angel was the new Bini Baby.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, it's really just like Disney adult for, it's like, Kuntie Disney adults.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kuntie Disney adult.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's like okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you just say this really quickly is that I went to a WNBA game.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was so awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was in New York Liberty team.

[SPEAKER_00]: All the girls have their gorgeous ponytails.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're whipping the fuck around.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was taken there by a good friend.

[SPEAKER_00]: Also YouTuber.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was giving me all the dates.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's like an avid.

[SPEAKER_00]: Attendee, but they have this mask all it named Ellie the elephant and Ellie the elephant is like a cuntie stuffy like she's like cuntie She has this like gray that she whips around and she like torques on everybody and I was like a men sports could truly never like she truly was so cuntie had several outfit changes She's an incredible dancer.

[SPEAKER_00]: She had back at these two male backup dancers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god amazing [SPEAKER_01]: Who's that one hockey mascot that's like terrifying?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the Pittsburgh Steelers or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they have this, no, like because he went viral because he's a freak.

[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I fell into another dimension here and you say those two words.

[SPEAKER_01]: He went viral because he's a freak.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because he's a freak.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but anyway, it's back to live.

[SPEAKER_00]: He actually was like the other country stuffed animal, Kenty does need all anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've described my taste as cute.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like cute things.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've always liked cute things.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's why I love Muffy and Hello Kitty, but I love that over the years.

[SPEAKER_01]: But suddenly it just became like this other thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It went beyond like Hello Kitty's ubiquitous.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, everyone likes it and like it's a fun way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's become this like whole aesthetic I guess is like the trinket core.

[SPEAKER_01]: thing, which I know that's been happening for a few years, but I thought that when we were like, oh, how are we gonna change our spending habits with the recession, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, [SPEAKER_00]: tapping all over it and it has like several stuffed animals everywhere.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're kind of like, haphazardly just tapping all over it to stimulate our ears or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that visual makes me want to rip my eyes out.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I am also like, if the booboos are getting you through, I guess whatever end times were in, I suppose go for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is me trying to be really even killed about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I guess it's just like, look, we as Gen Z again, we've talked in so much shit about millennials and their obsessed with Disney and it's like at least those things are like tied to some bigger sentimental meaning like all those stupid trinkets and like sometimes good or attached or like movies attached to it but libubu you just like because it looks funky and again, I'm saying this as a girl who loves miffy [SPEAKER_00]: Well, abusers are kind of giving monster high though, like when they started introducing those kind of alt versions of things where it's like, no, this isn't, isn't cute anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is for cool girls because it has sharp scary teeth.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's like, I don't know, just I find it kind of cringe.

[SPEAKER_00]: As someone who has, I have two stuffed animals in my bed.

[SPEAKER_00]: I still continue to wonder whether or not I should have those on my bed, but I have my little birthday bear care bearer from when I was five, and I have my little new friends with bearer from when I was eight.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're very cute.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're just earnestly cute.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're kind of dirty.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't need them to be old.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need my stuffed animals to be old.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then that's just how I feel.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, speaking of alt-suffet animals, whatever happened to ugly dolls.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be the next kind of nostalgic thing that comes back.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm forgetting what this is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, all of my friends with hipster parents growing up had ugly dolls.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you knew whose parents had them drink like skim milk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those were the friends that showed me be York when I was like four and they all had ugly dolls.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, these, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt that way about, um, groovy girls.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was like all the kind of crunchy parents that a groovy girl's cause they didn't approve of how slubby Barbies were.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, my grandma has a story of buying me a groovy girl for my third birthday and when I just discovered Barbies and all I wanted was a Barbie.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a terribly traumatic moment for me apparently.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: I had a couple of groovy girls and I was like, I guess this is fun, but like, I can't make these dolls have a lesbian sex.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's inappropriate.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think where is my Barbie's?

[SPEAKER_00]: I could just smash together and that's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't change their outfits either.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Movie girls are at the least country stuffed animal there is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't really cut their hair, the threads are just gonna all come off.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their hair would sort of look like untie it a little bit, because it's like yarn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yarn.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's up with that?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then like, you couldn't really own things for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like, I think this is great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm like, yes, I love that they can't buy all these plastic trinkets, whatever for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in the day, I was like, give me my plastic trinkets, God damn it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want some shoes that I'm gonna lose in two days.

[SPEAKER_00]: Please, or like, probably pocket rubber clothes that I could rip in half, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: One other reason I am a Robert's having a little bit lose is sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what the celebrities are doing these days?

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she's a bit higher caliber than that, but I guess like a lot of them are sh- I mean Sidney's sweety-shilling for whichever company she had.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, she wasn't doing it as sponsor.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was she was just like, oh, these were sold out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I finally got my little booboo set and she just like unboxed it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even in- Oh Hannah, don't be naive.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I genuinely don't think that they need Emma Roberts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Emma Roberts is not the girl who's going to be the face of the booboo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me honest.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, girl.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: All I got to say is sometimes the advertising is baked in and people are not being honest about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm dubious.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is a very great opening conversation for today's episode, which is on Glossier.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Hannah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is Rehash, a podcast about the internet phenomena that strike a nerve in our culture only to be quickly forgotten, but we think are due for a revisiting.

[SPEAKER_01]: This season is about beauty on the internet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Social media may have snatched our faces, but has it also snatched our souls?

[SPEAKER_01]: If you like our show and want to hear more from us, you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash Rehash podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: where we have bonus episodes and early access to our regular programming.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't want to join the Patreon feel free to rate and reviewers on Spotify and Apple podcasts because that helps us a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: The year is two thousand and seven, the place, the LA branch of the Teen Vogue offices.

[SPEAKER_01]: In turn, Lauren Conrad is minding her own business at her desk when she's confronted with a powerful destabilizing force.

[SPEAKER_01]: Straight from the New York office is Emily, the super intern, whose brown hair, black turtleneck, and east coast elegance immediately threatens California girl Lauren.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now that I've set the scene for you, [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and it was a beautiful scene you have said.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you asked anyone in two thousand and seven, which of those two girls would be the founder of a makeup brand valued at over a billion dollars, they would probably say Lauren Conrad, the then it girl and star of the Hills.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they would be wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: because Emily, the super intern, grew up to be Emily Wise, the founder of Glossier, who was partially credited with changing the beauty industry as we know it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So herdled neck and all that she lives at her neck or she keeps it on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would say she went even further down the, you know, Steve Jobs rabbit hole.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like Elizabeth Holmes style?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like if Elizabeth Holmes had an idea that was competent and then she actually executed it, then yes, I actually do think there's slightly sisters.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that Holmes is like Emily Wise is like weird mirror double a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, her dark double.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a member of what Spotify has informed us is our main demographic, which is young women living in an English-speaking country, then you're probably very aware of Glossier as a brand.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, sometimes people outside of that demographic listen.

[SPEAKER_01]: My dad has a friend who listens.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there are people in other categories who might do an explainer for what Glossier is.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for those who do, Emily Wise launched Glossier in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, [SPEAKER_01]: My yeah, what words would you use to describe glossier's vibe?

[SPEAKER_01]: Not the shoppers, but like the actual vibe of the branding in the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd say they have a very streamlined aesthetic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was very cohesive, a lot of like whites, which I don't think were that present and a lot of like makeup branding at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was a lot of just like white branding, which now you kind of see a lot with, you know, Ilia, for example, or like coach cosmetics, like milk.

[SPEAKER_00]: I find also kind of have that, but glossy, it was really the forefront of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of cool girl, like I remember thinking it was really cool back in the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember, you know, I was like, I ain't got to get that seven dollar boy brow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I grabbed y'all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was seven dollar.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was seven dollars when I bought it back another day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, inflation, or was that kind of expensive?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's expensive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you not expensive?

[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, inflation.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's inflation.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's expensive.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was inflation.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is inflation.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably more expensive now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Seven dollars, yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd say just genuinely quite kind of sophisticated or more sophisticated, seeming than a lot of other brands that were targeted towards young people around that time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Very stripped back kind of like minimalist vibes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely like of that sort of early internet brand minimalist marketing and packaging for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think again, I kind of alluded to it, but like there's definitely an influence of tech companies like Apple and their sort of simple branding.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then kind of, I think influence not just Glossier, but a lot of DTC brands that were sort of trying to align themselves with this more tech futuristic, like, pair-down look.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think a lot of what Apple's innovation was was this kind of, like, one really easy user experience, but then also to this very, like, it's sexy.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's sexy packaging.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cool capitalism.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's we forgot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it's also the makeup itself is kind of cool girl makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's no makeup makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's [SPEAKER_01]: Do we?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's glossy, it's lightweight.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the advertisements were sort of these beautiful but like slightly quirky looking models who had freckles or like tooth gaps and who were people that really didn't need a lot of makeup anyways to like look gorgeous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually once modeled for a friend of a friend for their jewelry brand.

[SPEAKER_01]: And James was plugged.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was in unpaid model.

[SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: The shoot was like clearly very glossy and inspired because it was like back in that era and I remember having like Vaseline put on me to like hit the light in this like very juey way and so yeah that was sort of what became like the look like bright lighting yeah it was a very dramatic it was very just kind of like simple bright photo shoots etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, I think the point was that it was supposed to almost feel natural, like not natural in a green crunchy way, just their whole branding was like, you but better.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's like this innate beauty.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not natural, like a hairy pet, it's kind of way.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like also, just like the glossy a girl probably just magically has hairless armpits anyways.

[SPEAKER_00]: Probably.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she uses aluminum free deodorant because her armpits don't stick.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she is not gonna have a really unsettled time where it's gonna say that much.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, never.

[SPEAKER_01]: Me?

[SPEAKER_01]: But the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Glossier comes around in, in, in, fourteen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do we want to describe the landscape of beauty up to and around this point?

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, maybe also talk a bit about how we were doing our makeup in this time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think around twenty fourteen, it was kind of creeping into this era where I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was kind of like the early beauty guru era of like Michelle Fawn and juicy star of seven.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was watching and it was a lot of like elaborate eyeshadow techniques like a lot of different like layering of colors kind of like painting on the eyelids type vibe like heavier winged liner [SPEAKER_01]: All this like on-brah shadow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, on-brah shadow, putting like a lighter shadow in your inner corners, putting a lighter shadow under your eyebrows, like experimenting with that kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was also coming around that era of like heavy mascara, no eye shadow, and then really thick eyebrows, like the Lily Collins era.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was huge for me, and like red lipstick.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember that being like a huge thing at that point.

[SPEAKER_00]: In high school, kind of like, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, kind of like a bit more experimental paint on the face type makeup that probably was a bit of a predecessor to that like drag beauty guru era.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that there was the full coverage like heavy contour look.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was looking at articles about beauty trends from twenty-fourteen and a lot of them mentioned like very thick brows.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a contour almost like drawn in brows.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Urban Decay Naked palette, which is like a choke hold on the girls.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still have mine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I'm probably expired, but I've had it since twenty-twilth.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a thousand percent expired, but you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: They discontinued those and then brought them back for a limited release.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how powerful do you still have yours?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it still works, so yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for reference, I found a Reddit post that's like R slash make up addiction in two thousand and fourteen starter pack.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's like, you know, when people used to do almost like face painting, special effects looking makeup, you remember like the polka dotted like almost art.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's it called pop art looking?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, did people doing like body paint types, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then like the Lord era like really dark purple lipsticks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cupid's bow was like actually big.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know that we hate Cupid's bow now.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to get rid of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The abasure of the Cupid's bow is a cause I'm deeply committed to because I think Cupid's bows are like the most beautiful thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love my cupid's bow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Breonna, one of the most beautiful women alive, has the most incredible cupid's bow you'll ever see.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just find these children need to stop getting rid of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, in the year Glossier launched glamour had published a list of makeup trends that they were hoping to leave behind that year, and this included like orange lipstick, white eyeliner, statement nails, and heavy contour.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you can kind of see like, yeah, that's a landscape that was like continuing on a bit, but that's also like the landscape that I think maybe left a lot of people out within the beauty market, because you know, if you weren't willing to kind of do like a full beat, maybe like the beauty trends weren't really speaking to you at the moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you just gonna have a skills like, you know, well, me trying to do the winged eyeliner on my wrinkly hooded eyes, it's not happening and I like they tried to give me hacks for it and I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: That looks stupid and I do not have the skill set.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not have the skill set.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did I still do a wing to eyeliner every single day before school for twenty minutes?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you have great real estate on those eyelets if you're as so.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would also be doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've improved my eyeliner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Put a big mansion on those things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I were you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of mansions, so I'm going to tell you a bit about Emily Weiss.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to mention Marissa Meltzer's, in my research, it's like a very extensive profile on Emily on the business side of Glossier and like a lot of the kinds of issues that have like come up over the years.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I definitely relied on it a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just think it's good to put it out there and [SPEAKER_01]: Also, like, if you listen to this episode and you want to learn more, I would definitely say listen to glossy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like I said, up to top, glossy A is the brain child of Emily Weiss.

[SPEAKER_01]: Emily grows up in a fairly wealthy family and Connecticut, and it's clear to those around her that she's meant for bigger and brighter things.

[SPEAKER_01]: She talks a lot about not fitting in with her peers, because they were more like those classic American Abercombe kids, and [SPEAKER_01]: She used to dress up and wear designer clothes and so she was very precocious.

[SPEAKER_01]: Find me like some sort of autobiography or biography that isn't like, I just didn't fit in and you're like, and fortunately, I feel like the way they're telling is like, unfortunately, she was too rich to fit in with her pure as basically in Connecticut.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, which, that's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, she's very precocious and, like, aside to have always carried herself, like, a little adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this precociousness leads her to get her first job in the fashion industry, which is when she was babysitting for someone who worked at Ralph Lauren, and she just asked them if she could have a job as a teenager, and they did, and she began working for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so during this time at Ralph Lauren she then kind of ends up being passed on to have an internship at teen folk which is how she ended up on the hills as like Emily the super intern.

[SPEAKER_01]: And basically like if you haven't watched the Hills, Lauren Conrad and Whitney Port were interns at the LA Office of Teen Vogue.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Teen Vogue didn't really have like a prominent LA office.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're really just like watching them like answer phone calls and having fake tasks to do because that show was scripted.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have Patrick literally.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think Emily really stood out when she came on the show because she actually knew what she was doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you can watch like Lauren Conrad be like, [SPEAKER_01]: So confused at the fact that someone's asking her to do her job.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I have not seen a ton of the hills again.

[SPEAKER_00]: I only want to do when I was at my cousin's house because she was older and cooler and was watching it, but I did not realize that Emily was actually had screen time.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a three episode arc.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she comes in from New York and I think it's like [SPEAKER_01]: It just kind of comes to like make the girls like undermine them at their jobs, but because they're basically fake interns, obviously, they're not competent, but Emily's there in her little black turtleneck, and she like knows for the names of flowers, and she like knows how to write an email, so she kind of stands out.

[SPEAKER_00]: She does look really cool in that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like the black glasses on the head and the turtleneck are really making her come back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thousand percent, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so as a college student in intern, [SPEAKER_01]: Emily's New York Life is obviously being ruled by her parents and so people told Meltzer a lot about watching her have that flexibility that like her family's wealth afforded her to have a nice apartment in the city and to kind of run in the right circles and meet the right people in network for like very little pay in the fashion industry so that like she could get those types of jobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also this flexibility eventually allows her to stop working in fashion publishing and start going freelance, working for a stylist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's while she's working for this stylist, and she's working behind the scenes on fashion shoots that she begins picking up beauty tips from makeup artists and models and has an idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we covered this in our Amanda Polar episode, but the very early, twenty-tenths were the peak of fashion bargaining.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Emily, like any style conscious millennial, was obviously watching this space, like a reading a lot of these blogs.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she realizes that there's a gap in this space for blogs that covered makeup in the same way that high fashion was being covered.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so in twenty ten, Emily lodges her blog in the blog.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we covered this in our mandrapella episode, but the very early twenty times were this sort of peak of fashion blogging.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Emily was obviously reading a lot of these blogs, like keeping an eye on the space.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she realized, like while she was working behind the scenes with these makeup artists and like around all of this, that there wasn't really any blog dedicated to covering makeup in the same way that fashion was being.

[SPEAKER_01]: covered.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even if you read like a major fashion magazine, makeup is sort of like a very small section within the greater narrative, but she realized there was all these like tips and tricks that were being passed around and that like people would probably like be interested in reading about.

[SPEAKER_01]: She decided to launch her blog into the gloss in twenty ten.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is, you know, a few years before like the YouTube beauty gurus really take off, but we are seeing the beginning of like makeup tutorials online.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like as far as like online makeup consumption, it was mostly stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what Emily was doing with like into the gloss was a bit different.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her former collaborator, Nick Axel Ross, described it as beauty street style.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she was really just like looking at what women she thought were cool or interesting or like in that industry were doing and like asking them [SPEAKER_01]: What are your actual tips?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, not what the magazine selling is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, not what's in the store is like, what do you wear?

[SPEAKER_01]: And what she found was that like a lot of these women were wearing sort of an array of high and low end products and realized that like she could sort of integrate that into the blog.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, understand out column from into the gloss is called top shelf.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where she would interview cool or influential women from inside their bathrooms.

[SPEAKER_01]: And basically like you'd have someone from Kim Kardashian to Emma Watson to Alice and Roman and they would just like break down their makeup routines go through all the products that they wore.

[SPEAKER_00]: So very early like Vogue makeup routine videos.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever heard the term shelfie?

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a photograph of your shelf showcasing like what you have.

[SPEAKER_01]: on there and, like, basically, this idea almost of, like, a self portrait of your belongings.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was coined by Into the Gloss, or, like, popularized at least.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll send you a couple of these just if you want to take a look.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've got one from Carly Clause and one from Leandro Medine herself.

[SPEAKER_00]: What year was this event?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, uh, the website changed a lot, so it's not as clearly Andro Medine.

[SPEAKER_01]: This might be the very beginning of mandipolar, like, this is, [SPEAKER_01]: early early days like she's living at home with her parents still?

[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Claus uses crest, three-d-white, just like me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she has a melatonin.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Oribe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know it was around that long.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, she really does go high low.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to like the clean and clear and the Oribe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they saw.

[SPEAKER_00]: And LaLabo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Twenty-fourteen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just like obviously have come onto these things way too late because like what?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because you weren't reading into the gloss obviously.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, clearly freaking not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Carlycloth is a lot of products that are extremely ubiquitous these days.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, do you have the Andra?

[SPEAKER_00]: I sent it in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lots of nars on the Andra's shelf Maria Badasque, which didn't we find out they had like stairroids in them or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Maria Badasque, like a face spray or whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm alleging Daisy by Marc Jacobs, especially more boring than I was expecting from the Andra.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi everyone, so about three quarters of the way through recording this episode, Hannah had kind of mentioned, oh, something weird just happened with my computer and we were like, oh, that's strange and her mic had gotten disconnected, so we were like, hey, reconnect your mic, let's keep going.

[SPEAKER_00]: We reconnect the mic, finish the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's an hour and a half that we had recorded.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I went back to edit it, we realized that Hannah's audio had dropped off at minute twenty five and did not pick back up again till basically the hour mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: And after the hour mark, our audio has been completely misaligned.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was like a huge delay.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were talking over each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were foolish enough not to record back up audio.

[SPEAKER_00]: So here we are re-recording the final portion of the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we hope this can explain if there are any differences in the sound of our audio, but we're happy to be back.

[SPEAKER_00]: More of an excuse to freaking hang out with each other and take it away Hannah, back to Leandra Medine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wasn't ready to stop talking about Glossier, just couldn't move on yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: I orchestrated the whole thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you just described the photos to me, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this specific article was done before she really took off the way she did with Amanda Peller.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was so like living with her parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think she was the college student.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess she is also kind of the girl who doesn't wear a lot of makeup either or like wouldn't really care as much about makeup.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like there's like the fashion girl leaves the makeup girl leaves and sometimes they overlap.

[SPEAKER_00]: I sound like a person on TikTok, but I do think there's a bit of truth to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I also think that her whole thing was sort of while still caring about a lot of feminine conventions, also denying certain ones almost arbitrarily.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, and also, yeah, kind of these funny rules of like, I like red lipstick, but I won't wear heavy eye makeup with it, and all of this kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think because men are probably supposed to almost feel like, oh, I care about fashion, but not like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I care about it in a different way, and I think it just would extend to makeup as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also, yeah, I don't think I've ever seen her wear a full beat in the history of my reading that website.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so get ready with me or product breakdown content.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've kind of seen versions of this pop-up more recently, especially on YouTube with the Vogue Beauty Secret series and videos like that where, you know, you'll have famous people again in their bathrooms going through their products.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I remember there was one of Zoey Deutsch, who was she was like, this is a cover girl [SPEAKER_01]: I shadow palette that I loved so much that when I found out they were discontinuing it I bought like twenty of them and that's what I use every day even though I'm like mega wealthy and I think it's kind of people showcasing that but then also dropping in some like much more high brow or niche products [SPEAKER_00]: This is coming at a great time too because I actually saw this video pop up on my YouTube for you page yesterday homepage that was literally following Madeline or it's Madeline clients or Madeline.

[SPEAKER_00]: Madeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: Madeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is a part of pop culture that has evaded me, but I've never seen the outer banks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's just call them Matt.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's call them at a line.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maling lines facial routine and it's basically like they're following her into a facial appointment and then tracking what they do for facial.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've completely lost the intimacy aspect.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have any of the relatability and it has nothing to do with her skill set or what she's learned and makeup.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's literally just some professional doing it on her, but she is the focus.

[SPEAKER_00]: So strange.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, this is a course where this wouldn't inevitably lead to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, there's this sort of orchestrated intimacy because you're like, oh, she's getting facial.

[SPEAKER_01]: She probably doesn't make up off.

[SPEAKER_01]: She, you know, is letting you in on one of the steps that it takes to look the way she does.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the appeal of what into the gloss was doing with top shelf and then yeah, with this like later vote videos was that [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably the closest you're ever going to feel to a celebrity.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the closest you'll get having a slumber party with Emilia Radikowski, watching her put on her smoky cat eye or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: At the slumber party.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what I mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's definitely a bonding ritual that happens between women sometimes when you get ready together for something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, do you ever had this feeling like as a kid where if you didn't feel like you just inherently knew how to do certain things or what kind of routine you should have or all of that stuff I felt like a bit of an inadequacy in that capacity so then when I started having sleepovers with friends in high school and like we'd get ready for party together I could kind of see oh so this girl does this and she wears this product and she does this and it kind of makes you feel a bit closer to them and this very weird obviously like you know consumerist way [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there is a bit of a language spoken within women's culture, I guess, and I think that is one of the languages of women.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same thing as, you know, bonding in the bathroom.

[SPEAKER_00]: These intimate spaces, they're kind of between public and private that I think, let's say, the club bathroom that I think women really thrive in, or that's where a lot of connection happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: Somehow, I think this ties to kind of this concept of like gossip being like a woman's tool.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, that which I've always been like somewhat dubious of, you know, but I do think that that's exactly what they're trying to replicate here for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: totally.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also I think there is a real benefit as the public figure to doing it because at the end of the day as much as yes this is this sort of intimate almost like fourth while breaking moment between audiences and in figure it's also something that you still do have a degree of control over and I think you can tell just by looking over a lot of the kind of content that into the gloss was doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even the Vogue videos is that there is an orchestrated related ability there, and I think that it's a very good PR move, I would say.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and also because a lot of them are like, oh, let me show you this makeup trick.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's something that I learned from my makeup artists.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a bit of a degree of remove their you're not the person showing me I had much rather watch Lisa Eldridge You know teach me how to do makeup.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's an actual makeup artist, you know, then whoever you are although I have been using Sydney Sweeney's lip liner tutorial basically ever since I saw that video here we are [SPEAKER_01]: Well there you go.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's also I was reading an article that a woman wrote about her experience of getting ready to be profiled on top shelf.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she just like talks about how she got a facial beforehand.

[SPEAKER_01]: She got her hair done.

[SPEAKER_01]: She let it all of these things so that she'd look her best naturally when photographed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which again I think just speaks to this, come out of like effort and money that goes into natural quote unquote beauty.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so top shelf is what really helps into the gloss launch as a site.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also kind of what sets the tone for the vibe that would eventually be Glossier.

[SPEAKER_01]: So another very key part of into the glosses success was the website's active and engaged comment section.

[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't access the comment now because they changed the interface of the website.

[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose since then, but from all accounts that I've read, it was extremely active.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was almost a Reddit type forum.

[SPEAKER_01]: where people would talk about different products or you know asking advice and because this was a community of makeup and beauty lovers and people who followed all this stuff and who were always trying out new products there was a lot of actually very good personal like evidence and trust being built between these consumers and then between them and Emily as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: for like what products were really worth their money.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it just became a very trusted resource for readers.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in the book Glossy, Merissa Meltzer also likens it to what made Amazon so successful initially, which was that it had customer reviews on products.

[SPEAKER_01]: which helped consumers cut around advertising and bullshit and know what actually worked and what was going to be the best choice for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like peer-to-peer, like spreading of information essentially.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I definitely trust more too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Although Reddit can be really overwhelming sometimes because, you know, get on some of those healthcare subreddits and you're like, whoa, you hear like the worst of everything in the best of everything and you're like, yeah, it's too much information.

[SPEAKER_00]: But no, I totally agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's also, I think, especially with the beauty industry.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually very hard to know what's going to work because everything is being advertised as a product that will achieve a goal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is like, this is for this and this is for this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you never actually know if it's going to say what it's going to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I always find it very overwhelming to shop for beauty in hair care because I never really know what to trust.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this was also really useful for Emily as she starts to develop Glossier because in these comment sections she basically has a market research group [SPEAKER_01]: at her fingertips.

[SPEAKER_01]: She has the people that she knows are going to be buying her products and her first customer base, telling her exactly what they want in different products.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, base off of those needs and base off of the discussions she was observing on into the glass.

[SPEAKER_01]: She starts developing her first line of products.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also it worked out for when she eventually would launch Glossier because there she had this embedded enthusiasm, the consumer base that wanted to see what was going to come next from her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this enthusiasm from the into the Gloss readership grew even more once Glossier went to Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because before they even started selling products, she'd started curating the brand's grid with all these aesthetically pleasing photos that weren't even related to the actual products that were going to be coming out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that [SPEAKER_01]: kind of set the tone for what the brand's identity was going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is like very early days in social media marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this wasn't really something that you'd seen a brand do.

[SPEAKER_00]: That works for me though.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the way that images operate on Instagram and the way that they make it to your explore page.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I actually do think that makes a lot of sense to make it kind of more disparate, aesthetically pleasing images that would circulate easily and kind of build a foundation from there.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that became very evident from [SPEAKER_01]: into the gloss and like from operating that was the amount that consumers were identifying with the products that they were using and with the brands.

[SPEAKER_01]: that they were picking and the draw that they had whole brands and what the brands said about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was really, really wise of Glossier to kind of send their message as a brand like where cool, interesting, hip, tech savvy girl before they even launch the products because I think they knew that the story was more important than what they were gonna be putting out.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a big part of that was also Glossier pink, which is this key shade of almost the salmon like baby pink.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not millennial pink.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Glossier Pink is kind of absorbed within the trend of millennial pink because there was a few brands that were employing baby pink in their marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And aesthetics at that time, acne was also using a lot of baby pink.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of director consumer brands that were targeting millennial women started to kind of adopt that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That term was actually coined by a writer named Veronica Highland.

[SPEAKER_01]: She went millennial pink because she'd been seeing the random popularity of this shade so it's not the same pink as millennial pink, but I would say millennial pink [SPEAKER_01]: is more of just an umbrella of baby pinks, whereas Glossier had a specific color code they were using, which they first made part of their brand when they chose it as the profile picture for the Glossier Instagram page, like before any products were launched, and then they decided they liked it, and then to kind of build up hype, they started incorporating it into their brand, and people started [SPEAKER_01]: taking photos of baby pink things out in the wild and tagging Glossier.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was again just like a really smart example of early social media marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also because Emily had this voice and this rapport with her readers, she was also wisely adopting this friendly, almost school big sister like approached to her copy.

[SPEAKER_01]: in the Instagram and then like in the brand's general marketing which again helped kind of establish this sort of dissonance between Glossier the company and Glossier the sort of idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it just gave again an identity to the brand that felt outside of the products and felt like there was like a more of a personification going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which is how you establish the cult's idea, I guess, how people can kind of wrap their identities into something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is by seeing it as a person?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cult brand is the exact way to put it.

[SPEAKER_01]: In his book, The Culting of Brands Douglas Atkin refers to a cult brand as a brand for rich, a group of customers, exhibit a great devotion or dedication.

[SPEAKER_01]: Its ideology is distinctive, and it has a well-defined and committed community.

[SPEAKER_01]: It enjoys exclusive devotion, that is not shared with another brand in the same category, and its members often become voluntary advocates.

[SPEAKER_01]: And can you see evidence of that in Glossier?

[SPEAKER_00]: For sure, I mean, I think that there was an insane amount of cult value just in the object itself.

[SPEAKER_00]: The concept of boy brow, vastly, I weighed what boy brow actually was as a product.

[SPEAKER_00]: It felt like boy brow took on a new meaning and whoever owned it took on their own meaning as well and took on their own identity.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like when the product has like an innate spiritual value, which we've talked about on this podcast a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think certainly.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a type of person that owns Glossier.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like a Glossier girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like even just watching from the companies first round of releases.

[SPEAKER_01]: the way that people were responding to the products.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'd watch these YouTube reviews where someone might be like, ah, this foundation is very low in pigment or there's not a lot of product in this tube of eyebrow gel, but they're like, oh, but I love this bubble wrap baby pink ace that it's coming because Lossia used to put their products out in these reusable little baby pink [SPEAKER_01]: cases or you know with the first launch they're like they came with stickers that you could put on the bottles and they're like oh but the marketing so cute the branding so cute and I think it's just interestingly enough even though the makeup itself is very minimalist the marketing part and the packaging kind of became a way for it to participate in conspicuous consumption a bit without like the makeup itself having to be very conspicuous.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well yeah, because you're collecting, it's like having collectors items basically, like I've collected the, now I have the cloud paint, now I have the boy brown, now I have the whatever the fuck that horrible eyeshadow is from Glossier Play.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was side of Glossier, can you think of any other examples of cult brands?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, first that comes to mind is Disney.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: The concept of to be a Disney adult, you have to buy membership into that identity.

[SPEAKER_00]: Buying the membership is way like purchasing a ridiculous array of Disney's never ending supply of merch, you know, rides, or like entrance to their theme park, et cetera, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess Harley Davidson would also be an example of, you know, there's a type of Harley guy and the brand becomes synonymous with that kind of person I suppose.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's tied to a certain kind of lifestyle, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you're a proper biker, and then, yeah, with Disney, it's also, it's not that you're a theme park person, or it's not that you're an animated film fan.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's that you're a specifically a Disney fan, and that arcterics feels like a huge, oh, I'm a Vancouver guy, and I go hiking.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like, it's like elevated camping, or elevated hiking.

[SPEAKER_00]: People who have a money to buy the gadgets, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's the kind of person who, [SPEAKER_00]: feels like an entitlement towards wearing our terrics in a way if you don't do those kind of things people kind of judge you if you wear it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I find in Canada.

[SPEAKER_01]: Except I feel like our terrics has become such like a fashion brand in and of itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's become a fashion staple.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of but it's very a real heads, you know, who actually live the lifestyle that earns the ability to wear our terrics or the only ones who are allowed to wear it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was that was in the zeitgeist for a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it still is now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely think different sporting brands could probably fall into that as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think, oh, thrasher.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when girls sort of bring thrasher to usher's back in the day, they would get hella roasted.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cause it was like, oh, do you skate?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cause it used to be a sublonged to a certain type of lifestyle or group of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, [SPEAKER_01]: be kind of disseminated until that's the culture.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Apple's a really famous one, but especially Apple also in like the early days because it kind of represented something about your values because they've done such a good job with their marketing that you know, they were more sleek and futuristic looking but also they used a lot of important revolutionary figures or thinkers in their marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: that sort of sold this idea that they were challenging something.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were breaking norms.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was like something.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a Democrat, but I'm also kind of a rebel.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a libertarian.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I absolutely love UX, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I don't know if you remember those Apple ads from when there were kids where there was some guy dressed up as a nerd and then you had Justin Long, who I guess was supposed to be the cool guy spokesperson of the team.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a Mac and the other guy was a PC and it's just the PC's being a totaled weave and then Justin Long kind of comes out and is like buttoned down, sure, or whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, yeah, I'm gonna be a Mac.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is kind of a good example of Bill Gates versus Steve Jobs, I suppose.

[SPEAKER_00]: Steve Jobs was, as we know, a grateful dad, listener, and boyfriend of Joan Bios.

[SPEAKER_00]: People would be telling me, I look like a lot recently, and I would say you're like Steve Jobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's turtle decks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Good one.

[SPEAKER_01]: You do kind of have a Joan Biasi look.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if your faces look the same, but you have the same kind of aura of look.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think our faces look the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I have to pull up another photo.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean Glossy also just did kind of mold itself a little bit off of Apple because Emily was like every sort of young internet based entrepreneur did idolized Steve Jobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now that we've kind of talked about Glossier's brand identity, and maybe now is a good time to talk about the actual products.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Glossier first launched in October, twenty-fourteen with a line called phase one.

[SPEAKER_01]: This included their priming moisturizer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Vom.com, which is a tinted lip balm.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're soothing face mist.

[SPEAKER_01]: and the perfecting skin tint.

[SPEAKER_01]: The perfecting skin tint immediately did cause a bit of controversy because it only came in three shades, light, medium and dark, and the dark was not very dark at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: The argument that they were making was like of course they were in new company and we cost more to have more colors available.

[SPEAKER_01]: but they also tried to say that if they had more options and people were buying online, people would be less likely to buy because they wouldn't know what the right color would be or they'd be more likely to return it because they'd have more options to go through.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really think that either of those answers are very satisfactory, especially when it was when he was fourteen and people were starting to demand more color ranges out of [SPEAKER_01]: brands like I think it was just a really bad decision on their part.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is that is very bad and then Fenty came along and released like five trillion shades and you're like damn you guys are kind of bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know when Fenty came along I was like oh, am I not the palishade of makeup?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so used to the palishade being too dark for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a world of translucent girls out there who are indeed paler than you babe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was a relaxing powder.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen powder.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they followed up that first line with a product like boy brow, which would become their biggest seller at such a cult favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cloud paint, which is a liquid blush.

[SPEAKER_01]: Generation G, which is another tinted lip balm, but it's like a bit more of a lipstick.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then HaloScope, which is a highlighter, have you used much if any Glossier products?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mostly just had the boy brow, which was seven dollars when I bought it back in my university days.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was why I bought it because I had like two dollars in my bank account at all times.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I bought, I never had the cloud paint.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just were powder blush back then.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I had this horrific liquid eyeshadow that would just immediately conceal on your eyelids.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was disgusting from Glossier Play.

[SPEAKER_01]: RIP.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glossier Play was sort of a failed experiment from Glossier in trying to appeal to a more creative makeup consumer base.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like going against the very thing that drew its customers to it by offering up more pigmented and fun colors.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, rest in hell, Glossier Play, because that shit was disgusting.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was really bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think they like quickly learn to stick to what they were good at.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would definitely do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Boy, Brown was not seven dollars today, but I did buy it in the pandemic and my immediate thought was, oh, I have to be sparing with this because I'm going to run out of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So quickly because that that little tube comes with so little product which was fine when it was seven dollars Kind of but it also it dried out in the second.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and that was also my experience with cloud paint is like I found the tube kind of broke quickly and pig the blush itself I put it on my face and immediately it would dry it gave me very little time for blending it [SPEAKER_01]: But hey, to say it, I am a devotee of the rare beauty liquid blush, and that never fills me.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the kind of...

I've used rare beauty with liquid blush, and you will know.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've had that for two and a half years, and it's like not empty yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: What I see, babe?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I bought a few Glossier products.

[SPEAKER_01]: I honestly wasn't very impressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of bought it at the beginning of the pandemic when I had served money and was just like, I guess, maybe I'll play around with makeup and I just found them all very underwhelming, especially for the price point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also kind of just felt like even in that moment that maybe I was lying into this idea of what the products represented and like what it meant to own those specific products because when I would put on a face of glossier I'd be so excited to look cute and then I was like oh I just looked like myself but a tiny bit shinier is how I would say [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and I love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see you glow a bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I recently spoke to some friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: The one who actually recommended these Glossier products to me about their thoughts on Glossier in retrospect.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was also the general consensus that they gave me as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just this idea that we kind of knew that the products weren't necessarily worth the money.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we still felt compelled to buy into the brand.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so like I asked what they felt like they were actually paying for when they bought Glossier.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them said, quote, it was just for the cloud of having Glossier products more than the actual payoff of the makeup for what it was supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that in the end it was that out that was ultimately the key to like glossier's success overall.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so like what my friends and I were admitting to and what that kind of cloud says was symbolic consumption.

[SPEAKER_01]: So symbolic consumption is when something is purchased for what it signifies rather than its functionality.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in some cases it might be something that you buy because it very obviously indicates wealth.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it could also be something less obvious in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think an example I would [SPEAKER_01]: Go to is books that people choose to read on this subway.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, when you go into the bookstore, are you not thinking about what it's gonna look like when you read this book over this book?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the books I read are all, I'm pretty good with them, actually.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like pretty fine with those.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, back in the day when I was really really game of thrones, yeah, I probably wouldn't just whip that out and hold it up in front of my face.

[SPEAKER_00]: For sure, for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just mean the books these days, I'm like, everyone can know what I'm reading.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wanna know what I'm reading?

[SPEAKER_00]: I could tell you right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Follow me on Goodreads, guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a goodreads.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what I'm saying is that when you go to the bookstore, you're definitely at least a little bit considering is this a book that I want to be seen with in public.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kidding.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was just saying that my Harry Potter, but now I would really say that about Harry Potter, but that would have been my pre-JK losing her mind being bad era.

[SPEAKER_00]: I used to be like, yeah, I'd be embarrassed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even as a teenager to read Harry Potter, you know, won't transit.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, everyone's kind of like, I'm a baby.

[SPEAKER_01]: The only gem I, well, I read Harry Potter for the first time in COVID when nobody could see me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I, I got randomly curious about Harry Potter cancelled.

[SPEAKER_01]: So sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was your copy.

[SPEAKER_01]: From when I was a child.

[SPEAKER_01]: But can you think of any other kinds of symbolic consumption, things that people buy to send a message, or like, where you're thinking about it like that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Lillabo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sorry, not a lot, though.

[SPEAKER_00]: A stop.

[SPEAKER_00]: ASOP Handsop.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think ASOP Handsop is the new status symbol.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think if American psycho were to be written today, he would be named dropping ASOP Handsop.

[SPEAKER_00]: That shit is sixty dollars in Canada.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it smells amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love it when I had more money.

[SPEAKER_00]: I used to give it to my mom for Christmas, along with some other ASOP products.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I would definitely say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I'm trying to signal something.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there was actually an era where I would buy ASOP for me in hand as a department.

[SPEAKER_00]: put it in and then when we ran out I would just put soft soap from the dollar store.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, I just want everyone to see my gorgeous ace-all bottle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, if my year was going through either like a really good or a really rough time, there would be like the occasional bottle of ASAP, and then yeah, we would just keep reusing it, and then it would just be dollar store soap.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, that's definitely symbolic consumption.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, you weren't wrong with the Lobo.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I'm in public, and I smell the Lobo, I can identify immediately who the person is that's wearing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every bitch in Brooklyn is wearing central and that is why I don't wear central.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wear a fragrance from them that I won't say because I like to gay keep.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think gay keep a little law bow.

[SPEAKER_00]: You might like most people a lot of people aren't buying mine mine.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's more like ult a lot of fragrances.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like smelling a little bit different.

[SPEAKER_00]: Guys, I have different little love out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, last so long, like I don't want to switch brands, but I do not want to smell like I'm wearing Centelle, because it's like I can smell it around every street corner.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't smell bad, it smells great, but I'm just like, you know, sometimes I like to smell a little bit different, and so I get my fragrance.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure many of you wear it too, but usually people can't idea when they sniff me.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so funny.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually not that crazy bitch, and you went and bought your maize on Margella Vanilla Firewood.

[SPEAKER_00]: By the fireplace.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, I'm all of them at Twitter.

[SPEAKER_01]: I ran out, though, it's built, it's built all over my back, so now I'm gonna make a product smell like it, but I have no perfume.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now their example is thinking about what people choose to drink.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think your beer of choice or like your wine of choice also says anything about you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you're Caribbean, you're out here drinking corzlight, at least my Trinidadian uncle is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Versus a lot of Canadian guys are like, [SPEAKER_00]: Doc, it's for posties, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or everyone in London loves order kinds of Guinness.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think they try to say something with that, because I don't remember going to speak that popular until recently.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's good for your stomach.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're like better for your stomach.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or honestly, sometimes I want a better wine bar.

[SPEAKER_01]: All I do is I just get the second cheapest orange wine.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not gonna think about wine.

[SPEAKER_00]: That has the cheapest orange wine every time always.

[SPEAKER_00]: Always the cheapest orange wine if you're confused.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you don't know what to do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Cheap is orange wine on the menu.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I'd buy the glass.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the other people and they're like, that's what I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a hat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it says, but it's like, it says something.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, I know what this is.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, I must know something about wine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: This wine imported guy for a while and he was like, oh.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's making a fat out of orange wine, but it's been around forever.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to take up that mantle, too, of being like, uh, except that I don't have enough information to do so.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do drink a lot of orange wine, and I have bought into the fad.

[SPEAKER_00]: The fad I have not bought into, and this was a big fad, of also shout a simple with juicy, farmy wines.

[SPEAKER_00]: Juicy, farmy wines, and fruity espresso.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just think both of those things should be banned, disgusting.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's something like North American about it in a way that makes me grossed out, but maybe it's not North American, but it just kind of grossed me.

[SPEAKER_01]: My rule for coffee is that I want my drip coffee to be fruity and I want my espresso to be nutty and chocolatey.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it should be nutty and chocolatey and everything else is blasphemy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really revealing myself as like a commodity fetishist.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that the smallest entire episode is about.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's like this thing in Toronto where they have events where they pair wine with glizzy hot dogs and as a snob, I'm like that is that is so offensive to my sensibilities.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's stupid.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not burnt out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we elevating hot dogs?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the great thing about a hot dog is that it's actually the least sophisticated food in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think anyone who tries to make a hot dog sophisticated is a douche.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the blast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're, I'm a huge hot dog fan.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're trying to meet, make hot dog and wine meet in the middle.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think wine is too good for hot dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think hot dogs too fun for wine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Stop trying to make them meet in the middle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Stop trying to make them kiss.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want to kiss.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're either, you're like some like bougie snob and you're trying to seem relatable and humble by being like, I'll eat a hot dog, which is like fuck off.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't get to just adopt this symbol and take on the hot dog to make yourself seamless bougie.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or the opposite is that you're ashamed of being a hot dog eater and you're trying to make it more sophisticated by pretending to care about wine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think both cases are dumb.

[SPEAKER_00]: A hot dog should be eaten with beer.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be a dumpier shame.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I did?

[SPEAKER_00]: I went to the rockaways recently to go to the beach.

[SPEAKER_00]: Besides the beach, there is one of those genched markets where instead of like all I wanted was a god damn hot dog and instead they had poke balls and like rice and lamb or something and then like or not even rice and lamb because that even sounds a little too bg it was the most anti bg food just give me garbage and then there was like a DJ playing kind of techno music [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, where is the Latin music?

[SPEAKER_00]: Where is any musical lyrics?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is July fourth.

[SPEAKER_00]: How fucking dare you?

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, why are there seventeen dollar pokeables on this beach when all I want is a fucking hot dog stand in an ice cream truck?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not one to be like celebrating American patriotism, but if it's July fourth, you should have a hot dog dish.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone should have access, easy access to a hot dog.

[SPEAKER_01]: That seems like it should be embedded in the constitution.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's messed up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, get me back on track.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think then Glossier symbolizes?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who was the Glossier girl to?

[SPEAKER_01]: Did she eat hot dogs or did she drink or in twine?

[SPEAKER_00]: She definitely drinks orange wine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to use the term that girl because I absolutely fucking hate that term and I think it's [SPEAKER_00]: bring raw it, but I will say she is Rosedale girl and what I mean by that is that in Toronto they were these two warring high schools there other like art high schools as well but they were these two warring art high schools art art high school and the other art high school rosedale and sometimes we got along and sometimes we were like which is better than the other yes I had better arts rosedale had sexier people that was just the tea okay not sexier rosedale had cooler people [SPEAKER_00]: And so you say it was very like they black winged eyeliner, septum ring, many piercings, a little more funky, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then Rosedale, we used to call them the Rosedale girls, and the Rosedale girl look.

[SPEAKER_00]: They all worked at American Apparel.

[SPEAKER_00]: They all had middle parted.

[SPEAKER_00]: long hair, kind of wavy hair, and we're absolutely no makeup at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're stunningly gorgeous in a really interesting way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, that is kind of the predecessor to the glossy egg roll.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think a little bit of the American apparel girl was a bit of a predecessor.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the American apparel girl's a bit raw and cheer for obvious reasons.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd say the Glossier grows a little more.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Glossier grows a little more refined and adults.

[SPEAKER_00]: She has the sensibilities of a woman in her thirties, but she is young.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think she has that vibe.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Roseville Grove vibe is just kind of this effortlessly beautiful and interesting looking vibe.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're interesting looking.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to look at you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel compelled.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're beautiful and also you're very low effort.

[SPEAKER_01]: We get exactly, I think it's this idea of she doesn't care and she doesn't really have to because she's just like naturally beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, her features are interesting, but not interesting in a way that doesn't still appeal till people's aesthetic sensibilities.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that sort of, you know, at the end of the day, if you're a makeup company and you're selling low pigmented, almost like watered down makeup to people, it's because those consumers either don't feel like they have to wear a lot of makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: or would like to buy into this idea that there's someone who doesn't need to wear a lot of makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I say this with heavy quotations that no one actually has to wear a lot of makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, if we're talking about people who are shopping for cosmetic products, I think even just from watching, again, those YouTube videos of people reviewing their first product line.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember a girl being like, [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess this is for those kinds of girls who like don't really need a lot of makeup, you know, that kind of naturally cool effortless girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you could tell that this girl didn't consider herself one of those girls, but she was such a big fan of into the gloss, a big fan of like Emily herself that she wanted to sort of bite into the glossier brand ideology.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though I would say like for makeup fans, there's something like pretty antithetical about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think too to agree.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do like the concept of, oh, letting your natural self kind of shine through, which I do think was part of their marketing and I thought was kind of smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt kind of alienated by the earlier era of like, kind of more drag beauty group era of makeup and and also even before that kind of a heavy brow on brave skillful eyeshadow play smokey eye like that kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt pretty alienated by it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I put it eyes.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're like kind of oily.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to do makeup on them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I also just didn't have the skillset.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I did really enjoy this era because I did feel really low on the eyeshadow part, really low on the eyeliner part.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did feel like you're kind of working with what you've got a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that you're still wearing makeup at the end of the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I do, I do like the concept of, oh, this elevates your natural features kind of.

[SPEAKER_00]: even though I don't actually love glossier the product.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's that's so much tied into the distance between products.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like a brand into products, but I didn't mind it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was actually kind of relieved when I came about.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually like really liked the advertising.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I thought I was smart and really visually compelling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh for sure it was really good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean all of this is a testament to what really great marketing can do because obviously there are people who actually just love the Glossier products and I'm not trying to say that those people are wrong or that they've got gas lit into believing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really just speaking to people who were like maybe make up fans and people who did wear a lot of makeup but wanted to kind of fit into this Glossier girl mode or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could just see moments of [SPEAKER_01]: these reviewers sort of trying to get on board with something that was maybe not their actual style.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that maybe makes people dubious about Glossier is just this idea that they're really selling this concept of embracing your natural beauty embrace your actual skin by using models that have naturally perfect skin who are quirky looking in a really pretty interesting way.

[SPEAKER_01]: and who, yeah, you could probably put Vaseline on them and they would look great because they just genuinely woke up like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, look, they're a makeup company and they're using models.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like gonna actually criticize their models for not being ugly enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, like, I think they look like a casting sheet.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, looking for busted models.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying out where you planned.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you busted?

[SPEAKER_00]: I just think that this push for...

I popped as fuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: the push from skin care as makeup and skin care first and all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It did, you know, as someone who's got a face that's covered in acne scars.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't wear foundation, but like I also don't love the way my skin just naturally looks and I think that perhaps this kind of changing trend.

[SPEAKER_01]: for people who had aspects of their skin that they personally just weren't as comfortable with embracing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe felt alienated by the sort of change that Glossier made on a lot of the makeup industry at large.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, there's kind of no winning or there's no, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder how those people would have felt.

[SPEAKER_00]: if they felt so little by their products to the extent that the products actually were good or like worked.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because there are glossy derivatives that have come out that I do actually think do a really good job of certain things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that a lot of people have bought into the endless feedback loop of put makeup on skin bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're like, I'm covering my skin up, product actually makes your skin worse, clogs your pores, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost impossible to find the line between those things if you're a makeup brand.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess the closest that's come to it is dove being like embrace your skin or like an acne company being like look at [SPEAKER_00]: This model with acne but I don't know I don't know because they all are trying to sell a goal right and so it's hard I did think glossier was a step in a direction that I liked personally away from the oh I need this thing to like cover myself You know what I mean and instead there's other thing and yes, I think the models compromise that a bit But I did like the underlying sentiment even though it was trying to obviously sell a product to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I pretty sure you brought up with that [SPEAKER_01]: What do we think about a brand that hold the whole ethos right of this company is no makeup makeup?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like makeup that you're not supposed to know is there.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do we think about no makeup makeup?

[SPEAKER_01]: What is the point of it?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm saying this is someone who wears what I would call close to no makeup makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do we as consumers get out of wearing something that does almost unnoticable things to our faces?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think part of it for sure is the comfort.

[SPEAKER_00]: I stopped wearing makeup as much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said in the last episode, I was kind of struggling with acne, then I went on spurn a lactone and then my acne kind of went away.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, for the time being I went off the spurn a lot of time, but it kind of went away and then I was like, oh, like, you know, I actually really want to experiment with not wearing [SPEAKER_00]: blush for example I would wear blush every day do the same thing as you right in it I like do my eyebrows with some gel and then I wear a bit of lip like I've basically worn lip liner on my lips since I was fifteen and I recently decided to just stop wearing any of that at all it feels extremely liberating I asked my friend if I look at me different they're like [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, no, you literally look the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I see you with that makeup and I see you with makeup and you basically look the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I had bought into the idea that I looked so weird without it because you kind of started to get this just more thick thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or once you kind of add something to your routine, it's hard to take it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I started wearing this tinted SPF that had this kind of air brushy look and I just changed to a non tinted SPF that doesn't do the same thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, I'm gonna look so weird and different, and I don't.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it is so in your head, I think it's a comfort thing, I think it's a ritual thing, and that's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: I look forward to like, you know, putting my makeup on in the morning.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, once again, we get asked the perennial question, is that conditioning?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think when we try and suggest anything other than, yes, we are slightly kidding ourselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not to say that I do think that there are people who like make artistry out of makeup, and for them, like, there's a million [SPEAKER_01]: Other reasons why we put on makeup, but I just think the very initial act of first starting to put it on is because we've been conditioned to.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's because we've ingrained it in our concept of femininity so intensely.

[SPEAKER_01]: that it feels like part of the performance of womanhood.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which obviously, yeah, I think what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a routine aspect to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just wake up in the morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wash my face, do my skincare, and then it's just instinctually I'm going to put on blush.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to like do all of these things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And often I am like, maybe I'm the only person who notices the difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: I get told someone I wear a little bit of bronze every day and they're like, you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, that's so interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you notice if I didn't have it on or am I just that good at blending in my bronzer?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it is such a performance femme in it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I find I wear a lot less makeup when I have long hair, for example.

[SPEAKER_00]: Versus when I have short hair, I wear a lot more makeup to kind of signal something else.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, hey guys, I'm still a girl.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like gender affirming.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: My friend told me she got her eyelashes permed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, that was the most gender affirming thing I've ever done.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, that's just so ridiculous, but it's true that that's what it makes you feel.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to embrace, ever since Mia Goth came on the scene, I've really been embracing my less long eyelashes, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is a big day when I leave the house without mascara on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been doing that since I was twelve.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I have experimented with not doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I just still don't feel right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if I should continue to challenge that or just honor it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel really cool when I have no makeup.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, I don't care.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel almost confident because I'm like, hey, I didn't bother to do any of this shit.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that to me feels no effort.

[SPEAKER_00]: I put a no effort.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you still think I look good, haha.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess the fear is someone doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, someone doesn't but then what happens, you know, and I think that that's the conditioning.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happens?

[SPEAKER_00]: Someone doesn't think you look at what happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is the harm?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is the, and I think that as women is coming out the harm is like, I will lose all dignity, all self-perception, et cetera, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just to wrap up our story as happens with every girl boss figure which Emily Weiss very much ended up becoming as a woman owner of a director consumer brand from millennials.

[SPEAKER_01]: She did get caught up in [SPEAKER_01]: twenty-twenty's girl bossalips as I will call it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glossier fell under criticism by former employees who created an Instagram account called Out of the Gloss and it was a lot of criticisms from BIPOC and queer employees who felt like the brand was using their identities for marketing purposes [SPEAKER_01]: without actually doing its part and establishing a safe working environment for retail workers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like importantly, this pertains more to the actual flagship shops that they had in New York.

[SPEAKER_01]: and not so much within the corporate side of the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: But retail workers had had negative experiences with customers, experienced microaggressions, and felt that management hadn't handled it adequately.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they've voice a lot of their frustrations on the out of the gloss Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say within the greater scheme of the girl ball solips and you know, the people like Leandro Medine or Sophia Amaroso who had much more damning direct criticisms towards them [SPEAKER_01]: and who I would say had their companies experience much more monumental hits through that criticism.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glossier and Emily relatively speaking did okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think part of the has to do with the fact that the criticisms were less geared towards Emily and more so toward the retail shops, but also maybe just speaks to like the mass popularity of the brand at that point.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for Glossier's part, their criticisms to be made about the way that adopted a lot of progressive social politics as part of its marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so for her part, Emily did actually end up stepping down as CEO.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't necessarily think it was a direct [SPEAKER_01]: consequence of this but more so the company growing and her not really being the right fit to run a company of its scale since she left the company finally enough has begun being sold in retail shops like Sephora.

[SPEAKER_01]: which as a director consumer company, it was sort of started on this ethos of cutting out that middleman, but it seems that like strangely in a world where the internet seems to be placing everything in person for some reason, like the director consumer brand is not one that's [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily been able to thrive without the help of in-person retail.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I would say all in all, companies still doing all right, generally, like it's kind of hard to ignore the overall impact that Glossier has had on the makeup trends of the past ten years, really.

[SPEAKER_00]: Truly, and I don't know if they had any hand in encouraging me to raw dog the world with my face the way I have been.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think it's fun to experiment with just going outside with actually the things on your face.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that under consumption core?

[UNKNOWN]: you