Rhiannon McAleer (00:00) do you think sometimes we're a bit afraid to talk about the Bible with people who are less familiar with it? Peter Wynter (00:05) I think it's really important that we're saying and giving confidence to the church, wake up, this is a moment to start speaking. it's almost like the ear of the nation has turned to say, hold on a sec, do we need to pay attention to this in a new way? And I think that the ear of the nation has turned towards who is Jesus? Yesterday I was just preaching from Matthew 16, where Jesus says to Simon Peter, who do you say I am? And I think that's a question of our time right now, where it's the sense in which I think the nation is beginning to say, hold on a second, who do we say Jesus is? And the church has got to find her voice in proclaiming who he is and what he's doing. Andrew Ollerton (00:39) gospel, finishing with, you know, these things are written so that you might believe. So even the text of scripture itself is claiming to be a mission resource, it's not just for those who need discipling. for those who also need to find the truth for the first Peter Wynter (00:51) Mm. There's a moment culturally where we can be full of courage in holding out the word of God and saying, this is worth engaging with and go after this. Rhiannon McAleer (01:01) A third of non-churchgoers aged 18 to 24 would attend church if they were invited by a friend, while one in four are interested in learning more about the Bible. There's a new openness to faith and the Bible. How should the church respond? Hi, I'm Rhiannon McAleer and with me today is theologian and author Dr. Andrew Ollerton. Andrew, you've spoken repeatedly about this in churches, how you're seeing new openness and telling the most amazing stories about how people are curious about the Bible. We're so excited to get stuck in. Andrew Ollerton (01:32) Thanks Rhiannon. Today we're going to have a fantastic conversation with a good friend of mine and we're going to talk about how the Bible is actually our best mission resource. Far from being a problem for mission, actually all across the nation right now people are finding that there's a new openness to the Bible and it's a great way to help people experience faith. So let's get stuck in. Andrew Ollerton (01:49) It's delightful today to welcome Pete Winter. Pete is a great friend of mine over many years. He's a brilliant leader. He's a senior pastor of St. Paul's Church in Hammersmith in the centre of London. And he's also the director of the Leadership College in London and founder of One Life. I don't know what Pete hasn't got up to really, but he's an amazing guy, a great friend. And in this episode, he's going to help us just think about the role the Bible plays in mission, especially in this cultural moment that we're in. So Pete, thanks for joining us. Peter Wynter (02:06) Yeah. It's a real privilege. It's great to be with you all and yeah, excited about this conversation Rhiannon McAleer (02:20) Well, Pete, we'd love you to start off telling us a little bit about what are you seeing at the moment in your ministry? And our research in Quite Revival points to a renewed interest ⁓ around the Bible in culture. And are you seeing that on the ground? And what does it look like? Peter Wynter (02:37) Yeah, Rhiannon, thank you. yeah, it's been a wild ride, really, the last couple of years. And I just just want to shout you guys out. And we were so grateful for the research that you've done and published because I think, as I'm sure many are, and probably everyone who comes on this podcast, there's a similar thing, because it's, it was just kind of almost bringing together a whole load of pieces of a puzzle that we thought we are actually seeing this on the ground. And actually to be able to then look at that and go, hold on a second, there's others that seeing this and we I was conscious of that. I've got lots of friends who are leading churches, part of various networks and watching various things going on, thinking there's something bubbling here that is different to how it was before, something else is going on, and particularly amongst young people. we're here in West London in Hammersmith and love Hammersmith. It's great. It's kind pretty central London for people who perhaps don't know the context. So we're just right in the mix of everything and in a really kind of Sarah and I have been leading the church here since, really since COVID. So we've just into our sort of, we've been here four years, we've been leading the church for about three and a half years. We've seen some extraordinary things and extraordinary growth amongst particularly young people, particularly at a Gen Z age group. And I would definitely say, I mean, I can tell you story after story, but I'd definitely say there's a deep connection to the Bible in it all as well. And not only that, you know, obviously the Bible drives all kinds of elements of mission and we see it all happening there, but there's this hunger in understanding what's going on, what's happening, people reading their Bibles before they become Christians, but then turning up and saying, I've been reading the Bible, I've got loads of questions, walking through the doors, you know, it's... There's not a week that goes by where people are not coming to Christ. There's not a week that goes by when there's random people walking into the church who are like either got some kind of distant context to faith, like I grew up in a, you know, some sort of Catholic context, or I went to some sort of Christian background school, or I've got nothing at all. You know, I'm from an atheist background, my parents are atheists, but I've been reading the Bible, I'm interested in what's going on. So those sorts of stories are happening all the time, and we've seen this extraordinary growth. So in terms of being on the ground, we are seeing what you are describing in that report. I know that's not happening everywhere, but we are seeing it in remarkable ways and it's been extraordinary. I can tell you all sorts of stories if you want me to. Andrew Ollerton (04:48) Yeah, we do want you to. think that's, I mean, one of the things I love, Pete, is when we caught up a little while ago, you you were just talking specifically about how some people from your church, I think, have just been going out in Hammersmith, just offering the Bible as a gift, you know, free copy on the street, not in the church, but on the street. And so, I mean, with that in mind, but anything else, yeah, tell us some stories. How are people perceiving the Bible on the street? and how is that impacting you as a church? Peter Wynter (05:05) Yes. Yeah, totally. mean, yeah, I mean, that you mentioned, I mean, there's several, I'll tell a few stories, you then interrupt me, okay. But I think, but I hope this will encourage people as they're listening and just kind of almost grow a sense of that. I think we need to take hold of a moment. There's a moment culturally where we can be full of courage in holding out the word of God and saying, this is worth engaging with and go after this. And I think people are saying, I want to, I want to. And that's probably most illustrated by that kind of Bible ministry. There's a... ⁓ Andrew Ollerton (05:19) Yeah. Peter Wynter (05:41) of an evangelism team here at St Paul's and it was kind of begun by one of the guys in our discipleship year and another young guy in the church who were like, just we want to go out and give out Bibles. This was like, I don't know, 15 months ago, something like that. And there's like, we want to go out and give out Bibles on the street. Can we do that? And we were sort of like, yeah, well, yeah, go for it. I, you know, if you know, hold my hands up in the missional moment, I was like, you can try, but it'll probably be hard work. And, you know, people will think, those weird people over there trying to give out a Bible and not that interested. And I think I suppose that had been my experience 10 years ago. If I'd tried and did something like that 10 years ago, it would have been kind hard work. I'd have watched maybe people from other faiths trying to do something like that. I won't necessarily name certain ones, but there might be other faith people trying to do something on the street and people just walk past and they're not interested. So then I think we were just surprised that people really wanted the Bible. And these guys invested some of their own money to get this going and bought the first 100 Bibles, whatever, and they were gone in no time. So then it's like, okay, well, we need to start funding this because people really want this. And so they are getting people walking up to them wanting the Bible. And so here we are 15 months later and we've given out well over 7,000 Bibles on the street just here in Hammersmith. Just last Sunday in particular, I just talked to the team as I was walking past, how are you doing? All right. Yeah, they were like, we can't believe we've had to keep going back and getting another box of Bibles. They've given out like four or five boxes of Bible, which was over 400 Bibles in a single hour on a Sunday afternoon. So this is not like, and they're not, they haven't got necessarily like a clever strategy, but they're just literally saying, hey, would you like a Bible? And many of those turn into conversations and opportunities to pray for people. They lead people to Christ on the streets. But the interesting thing is that people want to take it. They want to take it. And then there's a regular story going on in the church. It's a regular story where somebody will come and say, ⁓ I got a Bible on the streets three weeks ago. and I want to find out more, I've got some questions. And they jump into an Alpha course or they jump into a service or say, I've chosen to follow Jesus. They've already made a commitment to follow Jesus. There was this beautiful, beautiful one of a, yeah, of a lady who just actually picked up a Bible on a bus. It was one of the Bibles we had given out. So somebody had taken it, they'd got on a bus, left it on the bus, decided not to take it, obviously. And this lady had then picked up the Bible and in the front it said, hey, if you've got questions, you wanna find out more, come along to church, this is when we meet. And this lady a few weeks later had come along and jumped into Alpha course, gave her life to Christ. So she's now walking with Jesus. And that was all because there's an interest in what's this message, what's going on, what's happening. And that ministry particularly is being led by the Gen Zers. you know, those, that age group that you kind of highlight in the quiet revival as being a kind of leading age group that going on, they're the ones who are like, we want to give this out because they're finding life in scripture. They're finding life in the words of Jesus. They're finding life as they interact with the... with this ancient script that is alive and cutting to the heart. And they want to give it to people. And so that's what they're doing. And so we're seeing some beautiful things from that regard. I've got a friend who's a vicar in Stanford, sort of Peterborough area, and they actually have just decided, I think, he heard what was going on and they just thought, actually, we're celebrating however many hundred years, I think it's like 800 years since the church there was opened or something, I mean, it's like years. And as their celebration, they decided we're gonna print a Bible specific to that with a load of notes from us at the front of it. with an invitation at the front saying this is to celebrate 800 years of our church being in this village or in this market town. And they have decided they want to go and visit every single door in that town and offer them, every single one of them, a Bible. And they're having some beautiful conversations as they're just confidently going to people saying, hey, we want to celebrate with you. Here's an opportunity. Why don't you read this? It's going to provoke loads for you. So those stories are starting to spark as well. And I want to encourage anyone who's listening, you know, Get confident, start putting out there and people want to take the Bible. Andrew Ollerton (09:25) Hmm. Rhiannon McAleer (09:28) Pete, I love what you're reflecting on here about how it's opening doors to conversations because I think it's fair to say anyone in Britain could get access to the Bible if they wanted one, right? Like if you've got a smartphone or access to a library, you can get hold of a Bible. So this availability isn't our kind of missional challenge But what you're pointing to is that kind of the presence of the physical Bible that is attractive. But it's that relationship, isn't it? And again, it comes back. We've been exploring this for the last few episodes about relationships being that key to ⁓ unlocking the Bible there. And I wonder in your kind of experience, do you think sometimes we're a bit afraid to talk about the Bible with people who are less familiar with it? Peter Wynter (09:52) Yeah. Yeah, I think we have been, and again, think it's important right now that we recognise the change in season and grow in that confidence. that, yeah, mean, rewinding for me personally, there were, there's been a couple of invitations to speak at things that I've sort of avoided speaking at things for a little while because we starting in Hammersmith and it was right just to get our heads down and go. And I felt like the Lord said, no, no, build here. You need to open wells here and build here. And that's been the right thing. And that has still continued to be the case. But there were one or two things I was asked to speak at. I will always pray before that happens and before I say yes or anything. And I felt like God speak to me in relation to this, which was. These one or two things that went to speak at. So one of them was like New Wine Leaders gathering. But I felt like God say, I want you to go and speak to those things and your primary purpose in going obviously is to glorify Jesus and bring a sense of expectancy and hope in his presence with us. But was to provoke a confidence in awakening in the church. And that was my primary thing. I was like, we have to up our awareness I think, as a church in this nation of God is doing something, he's breathing in a new way, there's something happening. And I wouldn't say we're in wholesale revival. wouldn't say, you know, description you've given of quiet revival is quite a clever one in a way in the sense that it's, I don't think we're in wholesale revival. I don't think, you know, I read the pages of revival in the past, I read the impact, the social change. comes as a result of when God moves in a significant and powerful way in local communities and nationally. I don't think we're there, but I think we are in the birth pains of awakening. And I think it's really important that we're saying and giving confidence to the church, wake up, this is a moment to start speaking. This is a moment to step into confidence. This is a moment to say, do you know what, there's actually, it's almost like the ear of the nation has turned to say, hold on a sec, do we need to pay attention to this in a new way? And I think that the ear of the nation has turned towards who who is Jesus? What's the gospel going on? What's happening? Yesterday I was just preaching from Matthew 16, where Jesus says to Simon Peter, who do you say I am? And I think that's a question of our time right now, where it's the sense in which I think the nation is beginning to say, hold on a second, who do we say Jesus is? Who actually is he? And what is it he's actually doing? And the church has got to find her voice in proclaiming who he is and what he's doing. Otherwise, all kinds of other people would proclaim who Jesus is and what he's doing. And that's going on a little bit in our cultural moment because there seems to be this awakening moment going on. And so there's all sorts of influences and things going on over who is Jesus? What would he say in our moment? What's he doing? So the church has got to find her voice and start speaking confidently. And I would encourage everyone as well listening to kind of get more confident in the conversations you're having. Andrew Ollerton (12:34) Hmm. Peter Wynter (12:55) You know, I've had, it's not just Gen Z as well, in terms of the quiet revival, there's something going on. Just yesterday, a mum from the school gate gave her life to Christ in church. I hadn't actually invited her to come to church, not yesterday, I had before, and she had come a couple of times. But yesterday, there she was in church, and she's like searching for something. She's like waking up to this spiritual reality. Is God there? Is something going on? She's seeing stuff happen in the political realm, in the media, everything. Andrew Ollerton (12:58) Hmm. Hmm. Peter Wynter (13:21) And thank God she's come to church and she's heard a clarity on what is this gospel message and she gave her life to Jesus. It's so amazing. But she's there and she's wanting to kind of learn and understand. Obviously we're giving her the Bible immediately saying this is where you need to dig into it, begin to get the words here. It was so lovely because then immediately after, you know, she got linked up with another person who's another mum from the school gate that we interact with with our kids who gave her life to Jesus last year. And she was immediately able to say, let me tell you, let me show you. And the mum who gave her life to Jesus last year, who connected in with this mum yesterday, her story, interestingly, I wasn't going to plan to say this in any way, but her story was that the minute she became aware of God at work in her life and present in her life, before she really made a commitment or knew what was going on, the minute she did that, she ordered a Bible online and began reading it. And so that was the beginning of her journey, even before she talked to other people about it. Andrew Ollerton (14:07) Yeah. Peter Wynter (14:11) People are wanting to know and we need to have a confidence to declare it and to speak about it and the church must find her voice in this moment in order to declare something and we can, I think, be more confident in this moment. People are more open, like, okay, tell me about it, what's going on? Andrew Ollerton (14:26) I think specifically that's so helpful, Pete, and I think confidence is one of the things we've been lacking. Ironically, it's almost like, have you ever had that experience where you come out of your house and it's like, gosh, it's warmer outside than it is inside? It happens a bit at autumn, doesn't it? And I sort of feel like sometimes you come out of the church to the world and there's more interest. There's people who are asking deeper questions. Peter Wynter (14:38) Yeah Andrew Ollerton (14:46) listening and searching online. And as we've been saying on this podcast, often people who are seekers, they're in the Bible long before they're in church, months before. They're searching, they're researching, and when they turn up, sometimes they're slightly surprised that the church doesn't seem to be quite as engaged with the questions as they are. So, know, and I guess part of that is our challenge, isn't it? How do we raise confidence in the Bible in the church? Do you have any thoughts on that? What are you doing sort of Peter Wynter (15:04) Yeah. Andrew Ollerton (15:11) What are you doing inside, if you like, so that when people come, you know, they feel like, yeah, there's a pathway here, there's a way on. Peter Wynter (15:13) Yeah. Yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, so much is sparking in that. I think just to comment on that before I bring you back to your question, so I don't ignore you. So I think I think there is that we have been in a missional time. I think probably, you know, crudely speaking, pre covid. there was this missional season where the church, I think, felt like it was on the back foot. It was a little bit in like, you know, managing decline. It was a bit in kind of like, just sort of batten down the hatches and see if we can keep the lights on. And that was almost a definition of the missional moment we were in, which was a bit desperate really. It has shifted now. And that changes the way we go about things. Again, there's a descriptor to this. There are all sorts of courses, there, like Christianity Explored or Alpha or whatever. We run Alpha in our context and that's really important. And there are definitely a whole bunch of people searching on our Alpha course now, but increasingly people are coming to Christ way before they come on Alpha. It's changed, something's shifted, something's changed. We find, particularly the Gen Zers who have suddenly got a confidence about it, they are bringing their friends to things like our worship rooms. which is like a three hour deep dive into worship and intercession. And I'm like, that's not the sort of place you bring somebody who's not a churchgoer. Don't do that, that's silly. But that's where they're coming and people are coming to Christ in the worship rooms. Then they jump on Alpha to ask all the questions and work it all out. But they've had some sort of encounter or they've had some sort of, wow, this is real. Something's going on here, I need to respond to it. They're much more open to responding to the spiritual atmosphere, the climate, to they're encountering, I would say, the Spirit of God. Andrew Ollerton (16:29) Mm. Mm. Peter Wynter (16:46) might not describe it like that but that's what they're encountering and then they're saying I need this I'm in this I'm let's go and then Alpha almost comes as a follow-up so it's just important to notice that there's a change I think in the missional moment that before we were sort of perhaps on the back foot and therefore less confident to be speaking boldly about the Bible or interacting with those conversations outside the church. We were treading so carefully to try and warm people up to the idea that they might just come to church. If we could get through the door, maybe they would be all right. But now they're like, get me through the door. I'm in, show me the real thing. So it's important to notice that that change has happened. And I think it's good to notice that. And then we have to really, I think one of our responses is we have to work out how do we do discipleship really well. I hope that, and I hope people will reflect this, who come to St. Andrew Ollerton (17:13) Hmm. Yeah. Peter Wynter (17:30) Paul's in our context, but we're big on the Spirit and big on the Word and teaching the Word of God, making sure that we're really delving into Scripture. That obviously is seasoned through our Sunday services and our sermons, all those sort of things. But we're also trying to engage people in different ways to really dig deep into the Bible and go after it. One of our reflections, one of our responses to the quiet revival, I suppose, has been we've established what we call our discipleship year, the DY year. And that started a few years ago because we were recognizing there's a whole bunch of 18 to 25s coming to know Jesus who don't have even the cultural grid or the biblical grid but do are encountering God and are hungry for more. And so we started this discipleship year which is high investment. It's like a full night, three or four hours worth of input lectures every week, serving and then getting alongside a department to kind of watch how other people are outworking scripture, outworking. theology and thinking, getting alongside one-to-one mentoring and kind of trying to help people like grapple with scripture, grapple with the themes that are there and teach them from that point of view. So it's a high investment. We started that two years ago, I think with like eight people. And then last year, it sort of jumped up to, we did this hybrid thing where there's a full-time version and a part-time version, recognizing again that, you we don't want necessarily everyone to come into the church. Lots of them are students or creatives or musicians making their way in the city. Andrew Ollerton (18:26) Hmm. Peter Wynter (18:51) How can they do all of that alongside getting some robust discipleship? So we did this part-time or full-time hybrid. So we jumped it to 25 last year, I think 12 full-time and the rest were part-time. And then this year, we've managed to scale that up to 47. So there are now 47 discipleship year students who are on a kind of deep end discipleship process where they're gonna learn scripture, they're gonna think theologically, they're gonna get robust training. And that's part of the response to this moment because... Andrew Ollerton (19:05) Wow. Peter Wynter (19:19) You know, and I'm sort of shocked by it. I mean, they all went away on a retreat this weekend and one of the teams sent me a kind of video of the coach load of them all going off this weekend and all committed into it. And, you know, if anyone thinks, this generation, they're not committed to something. Well, here are 47 who are committing to a full year of like deep in-depth training and development. It's slightly overwhelming looking at this excitable busload of Gen Zers, many of whom have come to Christ in the last couple of years, who've got extraordinary stories of God meeting with them that totally fit with your quiet revival research. who are then saying, right, get me to grips with this and go. And what we're finding by that, that's one tiny thing we can do. But what we find is what I talked to the team about here is the glow effect. Because if you're really investing with those 47 at a deeper level, those 47 are suddenly like breathing that out. They're serving with youth and kids and they're serving in the church in different ways. And they're bleeding that out. So their own walk with, in terms of being discipled. reading the Bible, understanding stuff is then glowing around the whole church. And I mean, just to say statistically as well, this is your quiet revival stuff. When in January, 2023, we had a PCC report that said, we're delighted to start a small group called The Fold with 10 to 12, 18 to 25s. And that was the first kind of discipleship group of its time where they starting to sit down and learn the Bible together. like a life group or connect group, you know, a cell group, whatever the church you call it, but it's that, it was that. And that was January, 2023. And that was the first one. And it represented that age group, the first kind of few of that age group getting serious about wanting to learn and grow together. There are now over 400 of that age group on the WhatsApp community here in, where are we? 2025, who are interacting with church life here. And that, guess, there you go. If people are questioning, oh, what's going on with this quiet revival? Is that actually happening? That's what, that has been our experience of it here. Are they all flying with Jesus? No. All 400 on fire? No. But they're all circling around it and many of them have come to Christ in that period of time. They did just a straw poll last week. So about 160, 170 of them got together on one of the fold nights. Just, we do them once a month and they can gather in. and they just did a short poll, how many of you have come to Christ in the last, since COVID, and over 50 % of the room put their hands up as people who have given their lives to Jesus in the last, since COVID. So there you go, and that's it. So that's one little thing we're doing as well, discipleship-wise, to try and invest in this generation. Andrew Ollerton (21:32) Wow. Rhiannon McAleer (21:35) Yeah. Andrew Ollerton (21:40) ⁓ put it in. Rhiannon McAleer (21:42) thank you so much, Pete. mean, phenomenal. And a story that I've heard to greater and lesser degrees over and over again. And there's so much to unpack in what you just said that really resonates with what we've been hearing as well. And one thing I just really want to zoom in on there is this kind of exploration before church, right? And this... Peter Wynter (22:03) Mm. Rhiannon McAleer (22:03) deep, deep hunger and the people turning up are not there because they're just searching for community. That's important. That's part of it. But it's coming from a deep seeking and formation place as well as well as well. And, you know, we've got to jump on board and really prioritize that discipleship because exactly as you say, for many of these new seekers, whether they're Gen Zed or you spoke about Mums at the School Gates, that is another kind of peak point that Peter Wynter (22:12) Mm. Mm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Rhiannon McAleer (22:32) we see in data. If there aren't those kind of roots that were put down in childhood, we've got to really help people grow deep quite quickly. And one of the things that I'm wondering about is if people are kind of lacking in familiarity with the Bible, and it's often said that biblical literacy is at an all time low. Peter Wynter (22:56) Hmm. Rhiannon McAleer (22:57) Where do you start? And what are the opportunities and challenges in this new missional moment when it comes to encountering scripture for the first time? Peter Wynter (23:07) Yeah, well, mean, literacy may be low, but I think, yeah, the thing to notice even from your question is the sense that there is a hunger to learn. And I would definitely say I'm seeing that on the ground. There's a hunger to open the Bible and to learn it and understand it. And I think, you know, that is a wonderful thing. And I think that is, you know, the spirit of God is fueling something. that is an interest in who God is and people then are accessing an awareness of who God is through his word. So it's like the Holy Spirit working to point people to his word again and again. And as people are kind of beginning to explore stuff and get stuck in, know, and sometimes, you know, I hear stories of people who have, you know, coming saying, well, I've started reading the Bible and I just began at the beginning, what do I do? And all of that, you know, there's some basic things around trying to help people navigate scripture, which is important. But I think, There's this. It goes back to this confidence thing that if we as the church and if church leaders could be confident in saying it's going to revolutionise your life and your walk with Jesus if you get stuck into his word, then that's where it begins. It's like that confidence to proclaim that. So going back to that is super important and pointing people to that. Then sort of building all the structures like I talked about with our DIY year and stuff is going to be super important for then helping people to then start navigating, OK, how do I engage with this stuff? We're pointing people to resources all the time and there are some great ones out there to help people engage with it. In fact, and this is to plug you, I got handed your book yesterday, Andrew, I don't know if it is out yet or not. Is it just been released? There you go. So there you are, shameless plug. You didn't need to do that on your podcast. I'm doing a shameless plug, but that's really interesting. You're kind of the seven big themes from the Bible. Andrew Ollerton (24:33) It is. It is out, yeah. Thank you. You Peter Wynter (24:43) I think people are really interested in that, where you can make it bite size. It's not that your book is bite size. I'm not belittling that. But it's like, seven big themes, let's go after it. I've read a book by Rebecca McLaughlin, 10 big themes that every teen should be engaging with from the Bible. When it's made accessible like that, I think people then really want to read that and go after it. And of course, we mustn't underestimate the power of, and I don't know what you guys are doing from a Bible society point of view, but. Andrew Ollerton (24:49) Hmm. Peter Wynter (25:10) you know, the power of the internet in all of this to give people access to understanding scripture. But, you know, young people particularly are online all the time and they're watching stuff all the time, you know, YouTube channels, YouTube shorts, the Instagram stuff, which is, that has definitely been an impact in this quiet revival in terms of mobilizing, communicating what's possible. And people are reading on there and going, I want to understand scripture, I want to see it. And when it's well presented there, you know, I love things like the Bible project, all these different resources that have been so helpful. And that is been a front door for a lot of people before they've even got to church. They've integrated with a huge amount of stuff already because they've gone after it. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's again all sorts of stories that could tell of different people who have integrated in that way. There's a lad called Will who's on our discipleship year who came to Christ, I must be 18 months, two years ago. But again, Will was not living for Jesus, has got no Christian background at all. And he began sort of... he got into a world of drugs and alcohol. as a teenager and was more and more in that world. He boldly talks about doing edibles all the time. There was this moment where he felt like he encountered evil when he was high on one occasion and he felt like this tangible sense of evil in a room that really provoked him. And again, want to notice there, it's like God is by his spirit. sovereignly doing all kinds of things. Now if there was a tangible sense of evil, I'm not suggesting the Holy Spirit was doing that, but what he became aware of is if there's evil, maybe there's good. So he goes searching for where's there good and he does that online. He does that in spaces where it's going on. He begins to talk to his parents like there's something going on, I need something and they are connecting, going back to your relationships thing, they connect him to an auntie who is a Christian. They're not Christians, he's not grown up in Christian home, nothing. You should talk to your auntie about that. She sends him something online. So she sends him a story online and he describes his story as in his own bedroom, he begins watching films about the gospel, about who Jesus is, what the Bible says about who Jesus is. And weeping gives his life to Jesus in his own bedroom before he's ever crossed the lintel of a door, sorry, not a lintel, whatever, a door frame of a church, getting mixed up on all that. But before he's ever crossed the doorway of a church, Andrew Ollerton (27:05) Hmm. Threshold. Threshold is what you're after. ⁓ You're such an Anglican, honestly. We don't have threshold. Peter Wynter (27:20) Threshold, there you go, thank you, I need help with the words. the threshold of a door. Rhiannon McAleer (27:21) Yeah. Thank Peter Wynter (27:27) There we go. So before he's even crossed into a church or anything, it's all happened online and he's been presented biblical literature online. And he just describes, he runs downstairs having watched these films and stuff, crying, saying to his mum and dad who are not believers and don't have any context, I've given my love to Jesus, I've given my, it's Jesus, it's true, it's true. And they're like, what, what, what? You better talk to your aunt and. Andrew Ollerton (27:31) Yeah. Peter Wynter (27:48) and then somehow he finds his way to our church and he's just discovered faith in a massive way. Now he's full-time discipleship year student, so he's like working with us, he's on the staff team here, he's getting stuck into youth and all that's going on there and it's just amazing to listen to his story. But it all began in that sort of online space, looking for scripture, learning. So the more we can do to make the Bible accessible in the online space, it's gonna open the door for many in that generation particularly. Andrew Ollerton (28:06) Hmm. Yeah, that's brilliant, Pete. think, you know, back to the point you're making throughout this, which is that the Bible, you know, in that sense, people encountering it outside church as well as inside the Bible is like a swing door, isn't it? It opens both ways. It opens out to culture. It opens into the church. And I think we've got to get our confidence back in both directions. And I suppose, you know, if I'm honest, and I, you know, I think you resonate a bit with this, Pete, because your evangelism team, they persuaded you, didn't they? Yeah, go on. You can give it a go. don't think... I'm the same, I thought. Peter Wynter (28:40) Yeah. Andrew Ollerton (28:42) When I was a pastor for many years, I thought the Bible was a barrier to mission, almost something to hold back. Like it's too big, it's too complicated, bits of it are controversial. You know, bring people in through other means, through Alpha, through guest services. And almost only when they're signed up. We only used to give Bibles to people when they were baptized, almost as if to sort of bring it out at that point and say, look, sorry, you're in now. Yeah, yeah. We didn't want to tell you in case you pulled out, but now that you've committed, you've got to read this, I'm afraid. ⁓ Peter Wynter (29:02) Right, now you're baptized, you can cope. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Andrew Ollerton (29:10) But I just think, you know, we've all, I mean, actually, I think whatever temperature that culture is at, that was wrong anyway. That's always wrong. The Bible is always a mission resource, actually. And I think that's actually built into the fabric of the thing, isn't it? You think about John's gospel, finishing with, you know, these things are written so that you might believe. So even the text of scripture itself is claiming to be a mission resource, not just the, it's not just for those who need discipling. It's for those who also need to find the truth for the first time. the Bible, in a sense, it's always a mission resource, but never more so than now, I think, is what I'm thinking. It's just the appetite, the shift of public perception to the Bible, the sense that it's not something to sort of pull away from, but something that would be a gift, you know, like that. What you're describing, know, thousands of Bibles given away to people who just say, I'd love to have one. And it's like we're almost we almost can't quite believe it, can we? But a couple of times I've said this before. Peter Wynter (29:37) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Ollerton (30:05) couple of times my sons have said, dad have you got a spare copy of the Bible? And the reason is because one of their mates wants one. know, lads they play football with, nothing to do with church. Peter Wynter (30:11) Yeah. I'm in such agreement with you. I would say, particularly in this emerging generation, there's a greater open to spiritual dynamics. And that has swung back. Again, I think some of your research saying that there's less atheism in this generation coming through. And it's almost like they're open. Like, ⁓ there is something. I know that there's something. I know that there's something. And they're discovering that. And so they're like, okay, let me help you find that. they're open to more spiritual reality and they're open to greater challenge as well, I think. Yes, we live in a world that feels a bit more polarized. And we see that in our headlines all the time, shockingly on occasions. There's this kind of polarization going on and belief and like all those sort of things. But there's almost, I would notice, I'm noticing that the congregation here respond to greater challenge. They're like, they're more open saying, tell me how to live, tell me what it looks like. they're more wanting like, okay, what's the Bible say? What do you think the Bible says? Tell me that. And it's almost like they're not upset if they even disagree with that, but they at least want someone to tell them. It's almost in kind of broad terms, it's like they're departing from anything goes your truth, my truth, we'll all just work it out. They're a bit like, no, that doesn't actually work. It doesn't work. It's not doing our mental health any good. It's not giving us direction. What we need is ancient wisdom. We need understanding, tell me what you think. And if that's what the Bible says or what God thinks, even better. there's almost that, that is the feeling rising up in, I would say in that emerging generation in a new and a fresh way, which is again, part of the change in the missional moment. So I have no doubt that there was a moment where we really, perhaps the church needed to swing to see, seeker sensitivity and all those sort of things. know, I personally, I look at that now and I think there will probably was a missional moment where that was needed. Andrew Ollerton (31:36) Yeah. Peter Wynter (31:58) And maybe there'll be a missional moment where that's needed in the future. But right now, I don't think that's where we're at. I think people need presence and encounter. think people need like, I've sensed God's presence. What do I do with that? well, this is what scripture says. This is what God promises. This is the Holy Spirit at work. Look, here it is, here, here, and here. What, you've been healed? Well, no surprise. Let me show you where Jesus heals people in scripture and the patterns for those things. And I think there's a... I know that won't necessarily be everybody's theology of what's going on, but I think there's a generation who going, we're experiencing this, we're encountering something. Will had an encounter with God in his bedroom, he had an encounter with evil. I could name multiple other people who doing that. There's another girl on our DY year who, not Christian, not Christian background, not in church, she has what she describes as a toxic relationship with a guy. She finally gets out of it, breaks up. That night she goes to sleep and in her sleep she has a dream and in her dream Jesus comes to her and washes her feet. So she wakes up thinking, who is this Jesus? I need to go and work out who this is. And she turns up in our church and she's now like on the D.Y. year again. these are like people are encountering God and having, guess they're open to the fact that there's a spiritual reality that's very true and real and present. And it feels like God is on the move in a fresh and a new way by his grace and in his mercy. And that is. Andrew Ollerton (33:00) Mm-hmm. Peter Wynter (33:15) That's what's going on. And that's why I think they're coming to Christ in a worship room. That's why they're much more ready to walk into a normal church service that feels a bit deep end. teaching full on for, I'm doing sermons for 40 minutes from scripture. Again, like you rewind five years ago and they would be like, oh, young people can't listen to a sermon. Please don't talk for more than 10 minutes. Don't talk for more than 10 minutes because you'll lose all the teenagers. They won't come. Well, that's just not true. They are coming. More teenagers, more young people are coming. and they're listening to 40-minute sermons about the Bible. Andrew Ollerton (33:44) We have a mutual friend, Bob Wallington, down in Exeter. Bob was saying the other day that he had some teenagers come to church for the first time and he preached the Bible, preached about repentance, preached about Jesus' death. They have two services and he starts the second service and they're back. They were sitting in the second service and someone explained to him, think, Peter Wynter (33:47) ⁓ yes, love Bob. Andrew Ollerton (34:07) It's actually a repeat and they're like, great, we want to hear it again. So I just think you're right. It's almost like we've overcomplicated as well. In our loss of confidence, we've tried to go in all sorts of directions to find some traction, whether it's over entertaining, oversimplifying. And actually what I'm sensing and you're reinforcing this Pete today is actually... Peter Wynter (34:11) Amazing. Andrew Ollerton (34:28) I don't mean certainly not going back to the past. I don't even mean, say, being old school, but there's something about just preaching the Bible right now. There's something about giving out the Bible right now as a gift. There's something about Bible study. I was speaking to someone on the weekend and she said that there was a whole group of young people, all young adults who were doing the Bible course right now. She said these two guys, she said, pointed to two guys, she said these two guys, started the course and they weren't Christians. They're both Christians now. And I said, what stage of the course you are in? said, week four. So, you know, and they told me their story, you know, in two weeks. And one of the young men called Sammy just said, I want to be all in for this, you know. Peter Wynter (34:59) Ha ha ha. And I'm getting just I'm hearing that all over the place as well, just to affirm that. So working with young people, there's a young there's two young people in this congregation who actually come from quite a long way away. They travel from Kent every week. That's mad, isn't it? So teenagers getting on a train traveling and they travel in from a long way and a number do. But they they've launched a Christian union in their in their school. It's never had a Christian union ever in the history of the school. And they had, in their first meeting, they had about 25 people turn up. First ever meeting. There's another young man here who leads the Christian Union in his school. And again, that Christian Union, it's been really good if they've had like 20, 25 people at the Christian Union. That's been like revival in the school. Now they're getting every single week, 60 to 70 people. And they have literally got teenagers standing outside the doors, listening in to what they're doing. And they've got to change, got to find a change of room. I mean, So this is like, there's a young generation wanting to learn, wanting to find out, wanting to go after it. I mean, just, you know, not to highlight my own daughter as such, but I have a 14 year old daughter. I just find it interesting that she's sort of swimming amongst that age group and she's on a Zoom call a couple of times a week studying the Bible with teenage friends, self-starting. We haven't done that. It's not like a clever church program or it's, you know, it's not like, ⁓ please, would you all do this? ⁓ There's no one organising that, they're just doing it. We had this bizarre moment where she had to sleep over with a few friends, one of whom has also just started another Christian union in Bristol, so don't know if that's the same teenager as you're talking about, but he's just starting something in his school. But anyway, there were four friends staying and they ended up staying for sleep over. It got to 11.30 and I was like, oh guys, do think it's time to start turning in now and I'm ready to go to bed? And they're like, oh dad, we're just gonna actually do a quick Bible study, is that all right? Yeah, the faithless father and vicar was like, they are up to something, what are they doing? They're not doing, but genuinely they sat down at half 11 and they're pulling out the Bibles together, these group of 14, 15 year olds to study for half an hour before they go to bed. I'm like, what? Andrew Ollerton (36:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Their confidence, the confidence they've got compared to... I was lying about what I did on the weekend when I was at school. never... You know, I thought about you. was making things up to avoid saying I was a Christian who went to church. Yeah, amazing. Peter Wynter (37:04) Enough said, I think. Yes. ⁓ Rhiannon McAleer (37:07) Yeah, it. Peter Wynter (37:14) Yeah. Totally. Rhiannon McAleer (37:20) Yeah, mean, times are changing. And what I really love, Pete, is how clearly you've articulated for us the nature of the change that we're seeing, as well as the incredible impact of the Bible. Just to plug a different piece of research, Evangelical Alliances, Finding Jesus research, really recommend everyone reads it. It shows so powerfully the importance of the Bible in bringing people to faith. And if we can ask you just one more question, if that's okay. Peter Wynter (37:43) Mmm. Yeah. Rhiannon McAleer (37:49) For those church leaders out there who are either experiencing new people coming in, maybe not to the extent that you are, but still enough, or even just want to get out there with the Bible and respond to the spiritual moment, perhaps are stretched. know that church leader burnout is a real risk. Not everyone has resourcing to start new programs. What are your top tips for bringing the Bible into mission? Peter Wynter (38:08) Mm-hmm. Wow, gosh, big question. Well, mean, think firstly, I want to acknowledge that, you I know that not everyone will be seeing all these things. I can sort of, you know, share some of these stories and they're way beyond me. They're partly, you other people at the team, other people doing stuff. And I want to encourage you, if you're listening in today and you feel a bit like, it's all really great, you know, this stuff's happening elsewhere, but what about our church? And we're struggling away here. We've got no young people and all those sort of things. I just want to encourage you, just... faithfully pray in this moment. I'd genuinely say the stuff that we've seen going on here hasn't been because of clever strategy or some secret that has happened. It really is just, it's the grace of God and wanting to honor Him and honor His presence and to say, well Lord, we want to lean into you at this time. that's as clever as it gets. It's not, there aren't other clever things there. So I just want to encourage you, faithfully pray. that God would breathe life into your community, into the ministry that's going on around you. And that he would do things like he's done in Will's life, or he's done in the mum of the gates life, or other people. Just pray that God would do something. So start there. That's the greatest strategy of all, isn't it? Just pray and just partner with what I believe God is doing in the nation. And he wants to do, despite our abilities or our resources. he wants to do something and he is doing something. So just have faith for that and go after it. And then I think, if you're leading a church out there and you're kind of like, wanna do this, I wanna encourage you to grow in that confidence to advertise the Bible, because it's gonna point people to Jesus and encourage people to get stuck into it. So, we'll often say in a talk, like yesterday, turn up Matthew chapter 16, we're gonna read from this thing. I'll often affirm at that moment, bring your Bible to church, carry it, write notes in it, interact with it. Make sure you've got it there. Or if you're on a device, then make sure you've got it there. For those of you who don't have it today, there's one at the back or you can get it on the screen. But it's just trying to subtly, all the time, affirm, kind of live with this thing. Let it live in your hands. Interact with scripture and start going on with it. And then, last thing I'd say is just tell stories of how the Bible has changed you or how you've heard. You've got a load of stories from listening to this podcast now. Start telling those stories. Andrew Ollerton (40:16) Yeah. Peter Wynter (40:22) about, know, God seems to be doing this and God's done this here. And provoke others, you don't have to carry it all. others do. That Bible project, you know, the handing out that started here, that definitely wasn't me and it wasn't anybody on a paid staff team here. That was a couple of Gen Zers who were like, we're hungry to do something and all we needed to say was, yeah, go and have a go. You know, and I said, go and have a go, don't think it's gonna work. So, you know, there you go, advertise that. Andrew Ollerton (40:41) Hmm. Yeah. Peter Wynter (40:47) So if you're an overstretched church leader, I want to encourage you try and be open-handed with the kind of missional impulse that some of these young people are feeling and try and say yes where you can. I know that we have to be wise with that and we don't want to sort of upset our communities or all those sort of things. But where you're able to release vision that others can carry, then go for that and seek to do that. And then gently train them as they go. They'll get too overzealous at times or be... say something they shouldn't have said and but you I think we just have to go with some of those risks to be honest I'm I'm all over trying to kind of you know mop up a bit after some of the risks but but I'm always surprised how few there are like I think you just need to say yes give permission speak life tell a few stories and see what God will multiply as you faithfully pray that others will carry this into your local community you don't have to do it all try and provoke others to do it by telling great stories Andrew Ollerton (41:37) Pete, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. You've just been amazing. The stories you shared, the passion with which you shared it, the honesty as well. I'm sure it's done everyone a lot of good. Done me a lot of good, actually. I feel like I want to go and do something now. Get out there and share God's truth. So why don't we all do that? Would you just pray for us, Pete, maybe just as we bring this podcast into land, you pray for leaders, especially who are listening, just to have confidence to, just to share the Bible at this moment? Peter Wynter (41:53) Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to. Thank you. Father, thank you so much for all you are doing and the way in which you're drawing many people to know you. Thank you for this moment we find ourselves in, in this particular moment in history. And we pray, Lord God, that you would continue to call people to yourself. Lord, thank you what you've been doing amongst that Gen Z, that emerging generation. But thank you, God, for what you're going to do across the generations. And I pray that you'd find us faithful in this moment. Would you would you fill each person right now as we're listening would you feel each person? With a fresh sense of your Holy Spirit at work in their hearts come and presence yourself in each person whether they're leading a church or they're just listening in on this podcast or They're hungry to find out who you are and what's going on I want to pray that you'd meet them right now by your spirit and that you would as you fill them with your spirit flood them with a confidence that could only come from you not from themselves or their abilities or their clever strategies, but Father would you fill us with a confidence that could only come from you. And Lord as we boldly proclaim your name in this moment, in this missional moment, Father we pray that many, many more would come to know you. Lord these birth pains of awakening that we're sensing and seeing and even spotting in the data, Father we pray that it wouldn't stop there, but that God you'd bring it to full fruition, that this nation and other nations would move into. Wholesale awakening and revival where many many tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people would discover who you are would You'd reveal the truth of who you are by your word by your spirit. You do something extraordinary in our day we say yes to that we pray for it and All God's people in agreement say amen in Jesus name. Amen Andrew Ollerton (43:39) Amen. Amen. Pete, thanks so much for joining us. Peter Wynter (43:41) Thanks for having me. God bless you guys. Keep up the great work.