What happens when religious trauma collides with sexual empowerment?

That is exactly what we're unpacking today with a therapist and author Ann Russo.

And we are so excited to dive into this really important conversation Ann is going to enlighten us on so many levels on so many things.

So we're thrilled to have her.

I'm Dr.

Willow Brown.

I'm here with the One and only Leah Piper, and we are the Sex Reimagine Podcast.

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Oh baby.

Get turned on and fall in love with Ann Russo.

Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward.

Let's get into the show.

Hi Ann.

Yay.

Welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you.

I'm so excited to be here today and talk about religion and sexuality and all the good stuff.

So

Oh man, it is such, it's like, it's so systemic, you know, even in, in, in our client, like we work with a whole range of clientele and even clients who, you know, have been on the sexual healing path for a long time and they have a great relationship with their sexuality.

It's like it still comes up.

The shame and the guilt and the trauma around.

Sexuality.

I was just working with a couple yesterday and it was sort of their first time stepping across the threshold into Tantra land where, you know, where essence and sexuality are celebrated and like pleasure and being in your, your Shakti or divine feminine essence is like, is, you know, the point of it all.

And, um, it was just so phenomenal and beautiful to witness this woman re.

Organize her synaptic pathways from her brain to her body down to her womb, and to like bathe in the, in the reality that her body was made for pleasure.

And you know, she, you know, when we did the intake, it was all About this like, well, I, I think my mind is all fucked up from, from religious upbringing and society.

and all of that.

So take it away, girl.

I know you got a lot to say.

Yeah.

I wanted to actually say, just kind of piggyback on that.

I mean, I think we just heard Willow's version of sexual empowerment and I know that that's a real theme with your clinic and uh, with your work.

So maybe define sexual empowerment for us.

Oh, great question.

Yes.

So sexual empowerment, and I, and I admit that I do work more with with women, but all around, I would say sexual empowerment is the ability to define what works for you sexually and not because it's pushed on you by society.

And I mean that in, or religion or family dynamics, right?

It's honoring yourself and honoring your body and honoring your journey.

And that can look like opening yourself up to pleasure.

And it can also look, uh, look at, uh, adding b, putting a boundary to what's okay with you sexually too.

Because I think it works both ways, right?

Like women are kind of taught like, no, don't be sexual, but when your partner's ready to be sexual?

Well, you better be ready to be sexual too.

So no matter how you look at it, women are kind of in this place of, uh, ambiguity and not really being allowed to listen to themselves and their sexuality.

So empowerment can mean anything from asexuality to someone who enjoys sex with a lot of different people and feels totally okay with it.

I love that.

That's such a great definition because, you know, even, even when, you know, when we're teaching Tantra to people or we're teaching sexual empowerment, they, there's, there's a lot of times people can still come in with this idea that it has to look a certain way, it has to feel a certain way, it has to sound a certain way.

You know, the performance stuff that we all are conditioned with and it's, um, it makes such a huge difference to, to get more authentic.

Like just what is it for you, what is right for you?

Like find that sexual sovereignty in the moment.

It's gonna change from day to day and year to year as well, right.

Absolutely.

So learning how to listen to yourself and Yes, like being authentic.

You know, I ran a class of, uh, female sexual empowerment and we actually did talk a lot about the systemic issues around religion.

And one of the, uh, members of the group was like, you know, I wanna learn how to have more pleasure.

And I was like, heck yeah, that's awesome.

Because, you know, the class really focused on more about putting up boundaries from unwanted sexual advances.

And when she brought that in, I was like, you are so right.

Like, we need to talk about what it means for, for us to allow ourselves to in, to truly be pleasured sexually without any guilt or shame wrapped into that.

Yeah, and I would go so far as to be able to think about our pleasure and consider our desires and have a place to parse those out, and the courage and the bravery to say them out loud.

Even the, I don't even know where to start because I think it's been so not normalized to female sexuality that, that it's like, it's like we hand it over to other people to figure out for us instead of considering, well, what would the journey look like if I figured this out for myself

Yes.

And do I know I'm on the right track?

Yeah.

Totally, totally.

Well, and I think the conversation about it, we just had an another, um, guest on our podcast who were saying, you know, the people who have the, the best sort of sexual relationships ongoings are the, are the ones who can talk about it.

You know, and, and Leah's always talking about like, you know, even if you've got a.

C or some kind of like, you know, sexual desire.

It doesn't, you could talk about it, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to play it out and do it.

But having a more open conversation around sexuality, it just opens a pathway for possibility and, and it's exciting too.

I mean, sometimes you can talk about some super dirty shit and not actually do it, and it's a turn on.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's, it's, it's owning yourself.

It's owning your pleasure, owning your boundaries, and, and, and your, and your consent, like your authentic consent into those experiences.

So,

how did you get like kind of it, uh, you know, on this, on this path of, of healing the, the shame and the systemic, uh, stuff from religion were, did you, were you raised in the Catholic?

Like we were both rai raised in religion as well, and so we've got our own stories

Yeah,

Okay.

Yeah.

yeah, yeah.

I was born again Christian, and then went to Catholicism, so

okay.

Okay.

Yeah, so, so I have a, a very opposite story, so it's like, how did I get here is a great question I was raised in a household that was very polyamorous actually.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So sex and sexuality was

Normalized.

as very healthy in a very young age, but I was raised by, um.

Gay men, and then my mom, and you know, my, my father and his partner were just very open and I saw sexuality and understood sexuality through the eyes of men, not really through the eyes of women

And gay men at that

and gay men.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So trying, so for me, I thought, well, this is what sexuality it is supposed to look like.

Um, but it didn't really work for me or make sense for me.

So I had a, a long journey into figuring out more about what my boundaries were and what pleasure meant for me and safety meant for me, and I had to do a lot of that work on my own.

And to see that it was not what the world was telling me it was.

And that more conservative, you know, we are an a Christian nation, whether we say it out loud

Right.

Whether we agree with it

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

So what that was teaching me about sexuality and then what my household and none of neither of those made any sense to me.

So I had to kind of come into my own.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's why I really.

Studied, uh, sexuality and through all those life experiences, and then watching what was going on with, you know, my friends and my peers, and then finally my, my clients.

Hmm.

am, I'm curious, this is a personal question so you don't have to answer it, but, you know, growing up in a polyamory household, um, do you, are you attracted to more of the non-monogamy, um, philosophy?

Or are you in fact more attracted to monogamy?

What, where do you stand in your personal life?

So I, that's a great question because it has changed throughout my life.

Mm-hmm.

I think I'm attracted more to.

and the more of an emotional context than a sexual context.

But my partner and I are monogamous.

I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, sorry if you do, but we're pretty, we're pretty open, so we talk in depth about every possibility they could ever be.

And so it's like we have these conversations regularly, and at this time in our life, uh, we are, we are monogamous, and I don't know if that will always exist that

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

But we, we do talk about these things and we're very open about these things.

So I think that that helps us because we can have a conversation like all the way through, what are the consequences?

What are the positives?

What if this, what if that?

How do you feel about this?

And I think that helps us always be very authentic and what we need at different points in our life.

I am sure it brings a lot of closeness too, because when you can talk at, at a depth about these inner workings and of love and exploration, you're being transparent with someone who you really care about and respect.

And that conversation I think, uh, exemplifies that.

You know, I'm really curious'cause Willow, we haven't really touched in on you lately.

Yeah.

Yeah, we have.

Come on.

I was in tears the other day on the

wait, wait.

No.

This is a different question.

This different question for you because in the beginning of the show a few years ago, you were definitely exploring non-monogamy and had a lot of passion about kind of open relationship, and then it felt like you did a couple of turns.

And I know like right now you're, you're dating and exploring, but I've kind of heard whisperings in our conversations that like monogamy might be in your future.

So I just wanna like take the temperature right now with you if you don't mind.

And of course you can say, Leah, cut that shit out.

Temp check.

No, no.

I don't mind sharing.

I love to be open, um, and vulnerable.

So, you know, I think that I have always sort of, the relationship that I want is the one that works basically.

Um, but I have always sort of held a more, um, stood more in the Monogamish category, which is like, this is my partner and we're, you know, we're together and we can lean into each other and we're solid.

We like to play with others, you know, together, um, or in some kind of container that feels safe for both of us that's agreed upon in advance.

Um, so I think that's, that's my answer

where you're, where it's okay.

You know, uh, and I was, um.

I was really into open relationships early on, but I, I realized a lot later that I think that was in.

Reaction to my parents' divorce and my dad cheating.

So it was this.

I don't ever wanna be in that position.

I would rather be in a relationship where there was transparency and honesty at all costs.

And everyone can have their desire and we will negotiate how to allow everyone to have their pleasure.

You know, like I'm more, don't lie to me.

Reaction than anything else.

And then I found myself in a series of open relationships.

And then, you know, the last one I had was pretty brutal.

And then I was like, swung away the other

You're like, I'm gonna go into a

that was eight years of hell.

Like, I don't ever wanna feel jealousy again.

So, um, so anyways, just to kind of give you a, I, I looked like you were about ready to say something, so I wanna kind of turn back to

I lo No, I lo, I lo I love what, what you both are sharing because I think that that's any relationship we should be able to navigate as honestly and as authentically as we can.

And I don't see any, I don't see anything wrong with any of these versions of relationships.

If everyone involved, that's really what's working for them.

Right.

But I, I think the challenge is that we're given this handbook.

Here, this is monogamy.

Now you do this and this is what this looks like as you're doing it.

And then no one talks about it, right?

So like I, you know, I know many people, whether professionally or personally, they don't have these con types of conversations around feelings and actions and how do we actually have a relationship together.

So I feel like with the exploration of non-monogamy, it pushes you to dig deeper into yourself and should push the people you're with to dig deeper into themselves.

Like, like you were saying, Leah, it's very different than like a reaction to something negative happening versus like, you know what?

This, this may work for me and I wanna understand what that means.

Right, and you're doing it with someone or people who are approaching it in the same way.

Because there's many times where I work with people and I'm like, that doesn't sound like non-monogamy.

That sounds like someone being super, super selfish and not respecting you.

Right.

So it's like, so like there so it's so really like it comes down to.

Highly respecting some others, respecting yourself, having insight into yourself, working on any triggers that you may have, and being able to talk through, through those things in very vulnerable ways.

It's not being selfish and doing whatever the hell you wanna do without considering other people.

Yeah.

of your clients, are a lot of your clients kind of navigating, um, non, non-monogamy?

Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna ask the same question, like how many people are entering your office that are really exploring a new kind of relationship from what generations before adopted?

Many, many, many, many, many.

I mean, I also advertise, I also advertise that

Right,

know, but many, and most do come in feeling like something's a wrong with them, that they want this, or you know, B, how the heck do I actually do this and have it work?

Right?

So that must be like a, a starting place that you have to work people through is like that.

It's even okay to want what they want and that it is, and that it is possible to have it, you know.

Yeah.

You know, I, I think in many ways non, non-no, the non-monogamy for some can be like an orientation.

I think

Oh, say more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause I think, you know, it's like some folks are like, you know, this seems interesting to me.

I wanna explore it.

I wanna see if this is something for me.

You can kind of, maybe you can take it or leave it.

Right.

But for some folks, you know, and I had a client that I was speaking to about this recently.

They're shoving, shoving, shoving this part of themselves down to try to make monogamy work.

Mm-hmm.

And like, it's like making this person physically and mentally unwell to try to push this down and that, and so I think some people are truly oriented

Yeah.

to a form of non-monogamy.

Right.

I think so too.

It's like it's inside of them.

It's a part of like their essence and how they cultivate connection and closeness, and it's not this like pair bonded.

You know, path.

It's, it's broader than that.

And you know, it's such a complex in so many ways.

It's such a complex piece, right?

Because we love who we love and we don't want our partner, we love and respect them to suffer.

And so we want them to live in their truth.

And at the same time, if their truth threatens the shit out of us and now we're tying ourselves up in a pretzel on one hand or the other, on either side of the sidewalk, then we are moving towards suffering and you know, so here's, okay, how do you know?

'cause I've been listening to, I've been telling everyone, I've been listening to a lot of Esther Perel, uh, her podcast lately, and it's been really interesting, um, when she's working with couples in this particular dynamic, or she's just working with one person, right?

And they're exploring something.

And when attachment style arises and you have someone who has, um, a more what's, um, avoidant attachment style, and it's like they find themselves sort of on the hunt because it fills them with all the, that energy and that excitement.

And then as soon as they catch the person and they start receiving love back, it's like they push it away and then they're onto the next chase, even if they stay in that relationship or they end up cheating.

And so how much, I guess I'm curious, and you may or may not be able to answer this, but how much are you seeing that avoidant attachment style being placed in sort of the open relationship desire where they're just sort of avoiding whatever block they have to closeness And it may not even be about polyamory as much as it's about, you know, childhood shit.

yes.

Yes.

So I do think that it is about childhood shit, but I also think that it shows up in some non-monogamy spaces because that's the way the person is choosing to deal with it.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

That makes sense.

Yeah, because I think that person has also been, is being said, you're the selfish one.

You know, you're the one that's dysfunctional, you're the one that is, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Name your judgments.

Um.

so I thought that was kind of interesting and just, it just adds another complexity to all of this.

I, I, I think that, you know, when I, when I ran the group and, you know, I had a member say something to me and I was like, yes, yes.

This is it right here.

And I guess if anything, this is what I would wanna get across.

Exploring non-monogamy is the hardest work you'll ever do for yourself on your mental and emotional wellbeing, your childhood, your attachment style.

Like you can't do it in a healthy way without tackling all the bullshit,

Right,

That that resonates.

yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Truly right.

So

deep and you, gotta pull up the roots on the consciousness that you were imparted as a child and yeah,

culture that you grew up in, the religious construct, your family, your caregivers, you know.

But what's also, I think, kind of unique is it can change from partner to partner in our connection from partner to partner, because I have felt very unsafe with some partners.

And then in incre, incredibly secure with other partners where I feel like, oh, we could actually do this Well now.

So, okay.

I have a question for you on that, Leah.

Did you find though, that where you felt unsafe versus safe, the amount of work that that person had already done on themselves?

I don't.

I just, that's a hard one to answer because there's not proof that they did a ton of work.

But what is, there is proof is a ton of curiosity and a, and a, and a deep seated desire to also be like met and want this.

We were, we are in, um, agreement and our values line up probably in a way that those other relationships weren't as much of a match.

Um, so, and there's a flexibility in him that I think other relationships did not have as much flexibility.

And I would, I would even question then that some, some work had to be done because how many times do you sit with clients or people and you're like, well, how do you, what do you value?

And they don't know.

right.

All the time.

People don't know their deepest core values ever.

Yeah.

Which is like part of their essence.

It's part of who they are at their most authentic, true self.

I mean, your husband, Matt, obviously has done a lot of work on himself.

He kind of can, some people come in just like having a, a more of a connection to their essence and their truth and their authentic self.

have to say he was working with a fabulous therapist when we met.

He is an avid reader, like no one you've ever met, and we started therapy right away.

So as we were in the ULA laws and falling in love, we had a foundation of support and therapy so that there was a translator when we got stuck in communication.

And I think that really set us.

Mm-hmm.

To, to be at this stage in our relationship and to be all, to be very transparent.

We're not really, we are monogamous, but there's

You guys

my work is hands-on with people.

Like I touch people's bodies.

Um, there are things that are off the table

Mm-hmm.

and what I do with people somatically and sexually, but it's, it's outside of your traditional monogamous structure that I certainly grew up in.

Um,

I would call it Monogamish for sure.

yeah.

Fair.

Fair.

So, so, okay.

Anything else on this topic before I change gears?

Oh cha.

I just wanna say that I love this and I just love how open that you both are because I, it's sharing just how this can look in so many various ways because you're just coming in as yourselves and your partner or partners is doing the same thing, so it's not like, do it like this, this, this, this.

It's just like you said, aligning as are you aligned with that person and how you do that.

So that's so cool.

right.

I love too that the work around polyamory, swingers, um, non non, um, non-monogamy, ethical, non-monogamy, monogamous,

Yes, yes, yes,

all of these terms, like I think what's really cool about the therapeutic world and how many therapists are now available to work within this structure is so beautiful and so awesome.

I love to see that growth in our culture and that it's really about not putting people in boxes, but helping them figure out the right formula for all of this.

'cause there's some people that are like, do whatever you want, but, but cover it up in terms of a condom and don't tell me, you know, like that's valid too.

You don't have to be full transparency the way I think we always thought polyamory was, it was, you know, full transparency.

Everyone's in communication.

Everyone knows everyone, you know, that's just one model.

Exactly, exactly.

It's it knowing yourself and then.

yeah.

Getting clarity about yourself and then maybe experimenting to kind of keep finding clarity.

Yes.

Okay, so now I'm curious about religious recovery.

Um, because so many of us, uh, me in particular, um, that I, I've certainly talked about this on the show, felt like I had a lot of religious recovery to go through to find, um, myself and to kind of strip away what I was raised to believe about being a woman, you know, which was different.

The rules were different than the rules my brother had.

sure.

And all of that.

And, and I'm also curious about like, different religions, you know, um, not just Christianity, but people who might be recovering from really strict Judaism or Islam or Mormonism or, uh, you know, growing up as, um, in the Amish faith.

So

Mm-hmm.

can you, can you enlighten us a little bit about what you're seeing?

Sure, sure.

So what my focus is on is what I call, uh, high control faith systems or religious systems.

And that's not, uh, a term coined by me, so I just wanna put it out there.

It was by, uh, Marlene Winnel, and we're not talking specifically about a religion, like we're not gonna say, okay, Christianity, okay, Judaism, right.

We're speaking specifically maybe even just about like a church or a sect of that particular faith.

And how that sect will is, is more controlling.

Over who you, who you are.

Uh, very, uh, for like a better term.

Like if you look at like a very evangelical belief system as a, as a Christian, right?

Like this is the word of God.

You cannot question the word of God.

The pastor is the one who explains to you what the word of God means.

Uh, you go to hell if you don't believe this, or you're punished if you don't believe this.

Right?

And there's a very strict way to comply always within that.

Within that

Very defined roles as well.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

So I'm looking at, if you, if you try to leave, you can, you know, be shunned even by your own family members.

Right.

Like, it's so, it's, it, it, it just creates a situation where there's no real self, there's no autonomy, there's self worth, everything is just tied into this system.

Right.

Right, and just like you kind of alluded to, there's tremendous risk in going against the grain, like major cost

Yes, yes.

need to belong as human creatures, right?

And, and it takes, you know, we're going up to that level of like, now we're talking about your soul too.

Right, right.

Right.

So, so it's like, yeah, yeah.

Like, so it's like, mm, you're,

Existential

you may leave exact Exactly, exactly.

Right.

In that fear of the divine.

I mean, that's really rough and you will see that in any faith.

You can see it in Buddhism, in Hinduism, you know, faiths that we may not necessarily even think about

Oh yeah.

They have a lot of like structure, like you gotta

Yeah.

many times and not this many times.

Yes.

Yes.

I like that.

High, high, that terminology, high control.

Um, that makes, makes a lot of sense.

And, and even like, if it's, if it doesn't have a spiritual component, there's a lot of, you know, uh, what's the word?

When somebody's in a cult.

There's a lot of cults these days that are, you know, uh, just have so much,

High control.

high

I control.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so what makes the work that I'm doing a little bit different, one is I'm putting no judgment on a, on a religion.

And I think that's really important because so many people have religion, have faith.

Clinicians do.

I mean like we can't just be like, well, this is bad.

right.

And that nonjudgmental space I think is really important for building trust between you and a client.

Totally.

And then to take it a step further that this is something that hasn't really been done in the therapeutic world yet, is what do you do for people that wanna remain within their faith?

Right.

Okay.

Because right now, and as, as you mentioned, uh, Dr.

Willow is, we usually work with folks who've left cults.

Like you can't be like, well, you're still in a cult and we're gonna help you.

You know,

Yeah.

You just need to realize, yeah,

yeah, yeah.

You can't, you just can't.

They have to be gone.

Right.

And so with this, it's like, okay, so people may show up in therapy who very much are, are happy in even the high control system, but they're struggling with maybe obsessive compulsive praying.

So it's like you can still work with them around the obsessive compulsive praying without them having to leave the faith.

Yeah, I like that.

I, I like the, um, the, that kind of come as you are approach

Yes.

I, you know, I was reading your bio and like the, the.

People that you work with, like you, you are really serving a very specific, um, population, which I think is just so valuable.

So tell us a little bit about what is this, um, what did I say?

Reading about in your bio, a MR or something.

Oh, okay.

So that's the practice that I, uh, started and that works with all, uh, folks that are part of marginalized communities.

So there's like 15 therapists there, and they all, you know, we work with queer folks, non monogamy, um, BIPOC folks, you know, folks that don't really feel like they're being served,

Right.

right.

So I.

such a huge service.

It must be like you're, I'm, I'm envisioning your office space like a mecca for people who are like, I finally feel seen.

Hallelujah.

I'm coming every day.

I

Yeah, I know, and I love that because the therapist, like, you know, we have a very strong mission there.

You know, we're also sliding scale because, um, unfortunately.

Not everyone can afford therapy.

Exactly, exactly.

What do you love about serving, uh, marginalized folks who, you know, really need this?

I mean, what's, what's the candy for you in that?

I think it, that it's just always been in my blood.

I mean, because, you know, being raised in a an in a queer household when you're young, in the eighties, you are, the impact is pretty high.

The negative impact.

would

sure.

In the eighties.

Yeah.

How do you think it's different from, from then to today?

I.

I think it is better because it's talked about more, you see more families, uh, and I you it's just more, it is definitely more open.

I mean, I, I have some concerns of course here or there.

But I, but you can talk about it like, before you couldn't even really talk.

I mean, we were, we were not allowed to talk about it.

Like me and my sister, we couldn't even say like, we had to act like we were a heteronormative family because my, my parents, my dad, his partner, my mom, you know, they were all scared.

So we all lived in the same house.

there was like this living in secrecy and living in,

Like could you, could you say you had two dads?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I can now.

okay.

Yeah.

couldn't

and dad and a roommate.

Gotcha.

How painful.

It was, it was really hard.

it hurts my little heart to hear that.

so we, so it was like, you know, we just had to live this lie because of fear and.

I finally was able to say something, I mean, I shook like a leaf.

I was crying.

I was freaking out.

You know, like it was very hard for me to learn how to share my feelings because I was kind of taught to just silence and, you know,

stoic Yeah.

So that must have been a huge healing for you.

Like when did that healing begin?

At what time in your life were you out of the house?

What age and how long

High school.

It was actually high school because we moved to an another area.

We moved to Long Beach, California.

Uhhuh

And that

bit more open.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, um, you know, I was struggling with my own sexuality because I didn't wanna be, uh, a queer person because of what I saw with my dad.

right.

wanted anything but that people, you know, I'll get the question a lot like, oh, must have been so much easier for you.

And it's like, no, it wasn't.

I was scared to death of being a queer person.

And when when did you kind of, like, at what point did you, were, were you able to own that and come to

I did in high school, believe it or not, because I started meeting people that were like, oh yeah, I have a girl, you know, other, I have girlfriends.

I was stunned.

I'll never forget how shocked I was.

like my

Yeah, I know.

I'm like, what is happening here?

Right.

And then I started the, uh, gay straight.

Uh, what is it?

Club in high school, we were the first high school to ever march in the Pride parade in

wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, it just was like in my blood and it always had been, and I always thought that my work would be around queerness.

And then I started to understand the impact of religion on queer people.

And then that's when I went to school and I got degrees in theology and, um.

Yeah.

What made you get a a degree in theology?

uh,

you a person of

Can you define

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

So it's the study of God

Uhhuh?

and my focus was, uh, queer liberation and understanding like the times of Jesus, like I studied other faiths, but that was really my heavy focus and it was because of my own experience when I joined a church.

Ugh.

I could go on.

I had so many weird experiences.

Yeah,

weird experiences.

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I joined a church.

I joined a evangelical church when I was 18.

'cause I was like, what is going, why do these people hate us?

Like, I don't get it.

So I just jumped in and you know, I felt very hard for an evangelical girl and

What was that like?

It was torturous.

Oh God.

Honestly.

It was torturous, but it's really what propelled what I, the, the work that I do now around religion and, um, the religious trauma.

At first I was like, I'm gonna focus on queerness, but then I saw how religion have, have, has impacted so many people, not just queer people and the, and the pain and the hurt, and people feeling like they can't have spirituality or it has to look like it's, it, it's just been a tremendous learning experience.

So I'm like, I need, I need to expand this, uh, to more people.

You, you know, from a political standpoint, I imagine you're also seeing a lot of people, especially since uh, this recent administration.

I know my sister and her wife, and she's from Canada.

Um, have been, it, it's like their anxiety levels have skyrocketed, uh, to the point where my sister cannot watch any like news.

She, she has turned off so many things because she was really starting to get sick.

This fear of deportation, this fear of, um, gay marriage, uh, you know, going away.

All, all these things, they've got a new baby.

Um, will their families be separated?

You know, it's, it's been really, I think, rocked the queer community in a really significant way that I don't know is really talked a lot about on the news.

So I'm sure you're seeing a lot of that fear walk into your office and how are you helping people with that?

Oh my gosh.

Not just walking into my office, but in my life personally

Right,

I'm Sure.

Right,

Yeah.

but it's right close to home.

Right inside your home, I imagine.

Yeah.

You know, my partner and I actually just recently drove across the country.

We were, we were moving, uh, back to California because we wanted to be in a place where we felt more safe.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and I had never, I mean, it's like, you know, there's certain places within the country where it's like, well, this is really not my people.

But I actually had fear.

I hadn't experienced that before, you know, I was like, I can't be here.

Like panic was like setting in, in

Wow.

Where were you?

a few places in Texas

Mm

and then go driving through Appalachia

mm

and I'd been through there before, but it was really different this time because, you know, something that, and I'm sure that you can relate to, to this on in different ways, is there certain things that as a minority you scan for,

Mm-hmm.

you know, and you, you scan for, if someone has it is terrible to say, but it's really true.

Someone has an American flag.

You think, oh shit, if someone has some kind of religious symbol, you know, you're like, oh shit.

Yeah.

Certain bumper stickers.

yeah, yeah.

So it's like you're so like, you're literally like so hypervigilant in your environments because you're always scanning for, for safety.

Lawn signs, signs that are in gas stations.

I mean, there's all sorts of little things that I don't think you don't think about but are, um,

right.

portraying This is what we believe and so you, you have the instinct of going, then you might be against me.

yes.

Yeah, exactly.

And so it's, it's, it's anything like you said, you go into a gas station, you're seeing like the merchandise that they're selling.

What does it say?

God, guns, country.

You're like, oh my goodness.

Like, these people may be the most wonderful humans ever, but, but it's, but the trigger is real.

The hypervigilance is real,

Yeah.

Right.

And you're left in mystery because you don't know if they're the type of people who are gonna invite you to dinner or if they're the type of people who are gonna get their shotgun out.

Exactly, and that's a really, really difficult way to move in the world,

Mm-hmm.

you know?

So, I mean, obviously I'm very lucky to be in a place where I don't feel that as much here, but for for clients, you know, and even my client's friends that are in certain areas in the country, I mean, they're scared to death.

Yeah.

scared to death because your body can't stay in a state of hypervigilance all the

all the time.

so hard on the adrenals and it just drains you constantly.

You can't sleep.

You're like always, you know, on guard and, and that, and then you're always in pattern.

I mean, we talk about.

On our show a lot like the places that we don't feel safe in our lives a lot of times is sexuality, finances, you know?

And now like this is a huge, huge piece of the conversation of not feeling safe.

And when you're not feeling safe, you're usually in some kind of protective strategy or pattern, which means you can't just be in presence.

So it's like automatically taking you out of a Tantric state.

You know?

It's taking you out of presence.

It's taking you out of being in a relationship with whoever is right in front of you.

Like the guy at the, you know, at the checkout counter.

Can I just be eye to eye with this soul?

You know, and you, and there's a, you're coming in already guarded and already holding.

It's challenging.

it, it, it, it really is.

It really is.

I can only relate to it really, like as a woman, you know, like, like even this morning I'm in Montecito where it's just like, okay, it's fucking Disneyland around here and everyone's super wealthy, you know?

And I'm walking down the beach.

Yeah.

And, and I'm

it's like Disneyland.

yeah.

Talk about privilege.

Totally privileged.

And I'm walking down the beach and I see these, like three older dudes and they're just having their coffee and shooting the shit or whatever.

But even there's a, there's something inside of me that a guard goes up, you know, like, am I safe?

Am I okay?

Three men, you know, it's just, it's intense.

So I can only imagine the intensity that.

so many are going through around the country right now.

And you know, and Oh, go ahead.

I'm

no, no, no, please.

No, I was just gonna say, you know, when I think about people of color or I think about trans people of color

Or immigrants.

or oh my gosh, and that, you know, that's another.

Big reason why, why we moved back here is because so many of our friends are immigrants or they're just, they're brown folks and we're like, do we have to be here to do, to run errands or do things for them or to support them?

Because like while, yes, I feel all the ways that I feel right now, I don't, I don't have a fear that I'm gonna get, just get picked up for walking down the street, you know?

So.

I, I saw something recently where this woman was just pulled right out of her car and thrown to the ground.

Um, you know, and I have to tell you, the impact that it had on me was just, it was so intense.

And I went to go eat at a restaurant and it was, you know, Spanish, Spanish speaking.

It was Mexican restaurant and i'm looking around and I was afraid that ICE was just gonna come up in there and try to take people, you know, things that you never, I never would've

You never thought what was gonna happen in the us?

Yeah.

No, no.

And it, and I, and I think, how are these people, I know they, they have to survive, but I'm like, my God, I can't even imagine what their systems are doing as they're here day in and day out.

And ICE literally was just down the street and had wiped out the entire, uh car wash and like, it's just you're destroying generations of people

You can't help but think, what if that was my dad?

Yeah.

And then how

little sister?

how is that impacting, you know, the kids, uh, uh, uh, who are like their nervous systems, which are like little sponges, you know,

Whi, which leads me to this question, bringing it back to sexuality, because when we're dealing with those kinds of stresses in our, in our environment, in our hearts, in our bodies, in our minds, how is that affecting sex?

How can you even have sex?

You're so

How can, yeah.

Right.

Like how can you even be safe enough in your body to be vulnerable and safe and ready for pleasure?

Like your system just won't even allow it.

Right.

And you might, you might just wanna, bang one out to get some cortisol out of your

yeah.

Yeah.

oxytocin in, but that's about it.

yeah,

to feel a little better.

You know, we might not have all the answers right now, but if you wanna feel a little better, let's shoot for an orgasm.

yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Oh my gosh, that's hysterical.

Yeah, so,

An antidote,

Maybe we all just need more

Quick antidote.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

That is so funny.

Yeah.

I mean, it's,

an orgasm a day keeps the anxiety away.

yeah.

Hey, I like that, but yeah.

Yeah.

You're, no, it's not gonna be loving vulnerable sex.

It's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No connected.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That primal, right?

Yeah.

The primal sex

right, right.

Yes,

Well, this has been such a fun conversation.

Um, I

What a pleasure, what a treat.

We love you, Ann.

Tell us about your book.

Oh, oh.

Yes.

Yes.

So it's a pub.

It's gonna be out in 2026.

And it's being published by Pesi,

sy, P-E-S-S-Y.

I'm looking for a

P-E-S-P-E-S-I.

And they publish, uh, books for mental health clinicians, and they do a lot of trainings for mental health clinicians.

So they're, they're, they're top-notch folks.

So I'm really excited to be published by them.

And it's a, it's.

The book is about the religious trauma treatment model, and it's really to teach therapists how to work with people that have religious trauma, who may want to stay in their faith or leave, like meet them where they're at and like honor that experience

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Great.

and, um, yeah.

So, and it's also, you know, just for folks that maybe are interested in learning more about religious trauma

Mm-hmm.

and the impact of it.

Yeah.

Great.

Well, best of luck with that.

Thank you

Where else can people find you?

Website.

Yeah, they can find me@annrusso.org

Okay.

and I love people to connect with me.

It's my favorite, so please reach out.

Yeah.

Great.

Well, uh, thanks for being our sex expert today.

Thank you so much.

I had such a lovely time talking to you both.

Great.

Awesome.

Okay.

My friends, my lovers are beloveds out there listening out in time and space.

The show's not over.

We still have the dish coming up, so stay tuned.

Now our favorite part, the dish.

What a treat.

What a pleasure.

I

that was a fun territory and landscape

We really haven't had that many, um, queer

Experts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

more on here, I

Would would love that.

Yeah.

So if you are a expert out there and you specialize in, um, alternative lifestyles, especially in the queer community, we'd love to get your take on, uh, life and love and relationship and sex and all the things.

Um, so we all have a greater understanding of what our neighbors and family are living.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

What I loved about Ann was her, her, her very clear, empathic like, uh, nature.

You know, like, did you notice how many times she'd be like, whew.

Yeah.

Yeah.

just like, yeah, she's really, she really feels like you can

right along with

She's so safe to be with because she is present and really feeling it with you.

I think so.

She's probably, I'm sure her clients just love going to, to work with her because that is so valuable to, I mean, it's one of the things that we all really want as human beings is we want to be seen,

And gotten

and gotten in there just so many, like it's all feels so unsafe to like share ourselves, but to.

Step into someone's office, step into a safe container.

Someone like Ann, who's just right there with you.

I mean, what a gift.

Yeah, especially when you feel isolated and you, your story is so different from maybe your friends or your neighbors.

And so where do you confide, um, when you already feel like you are a pariah in some instances?

I think her story, I was really grateful.

That.

'cause not all therapists are willing to talk about their story.

And I really love it when they do.

I just feel like it brings so much humanity and, uh, to the conversation and to hear her story of growing up and how she had to keep this family secret.

a

God.

And then, and then like the assumption, I mean, even in my mind I was kinda saying, oh, I wonder what her, you know, outing story was.

It must have been, you know, she must have gotten approval from her family.

Right.

But like.

How like her story of coming out was just as scary as many,

If not more.

Yeah.

Despite having, you know, a queer parents like really, I was really touched by that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

You can really feel in Ann like how much, how much deep work she's done on herself in order to be able to have a conversation like we just had with her.

Just really open, vulnerable, and, and clear and deeply felt so.

Y.

You know, I also really loved her answer around the religious faith and where you start in therapy of that and how you support someone who's, it could be anywhere along their journey and they may not be ready to cut that part or change that part of their life in a significant way.

You know, they may not be ready to leave Mormonism.

They may not be ready to go to a different church other than the church they've been going to since they were kids.

Um, I was listening to, uh, another Esther Perel episode, and she was working with this lovely gay man whose dad was the leader of the Muslim church, um, that, uh, he goes to.

So his dad is like the leader and his faith is so strong, and he talked about wanting to meet someone that he could marry and who was, would be a hundred percent, you know, monogamous and, you know, ideally a virgin and, um.

you know, it would be this man of faith and th that that was so important to him, but even though his dad knew that he was gay, he'd gone, he's out.

But there is still an expectation that just because you're out doesn't mean you're gonna live the lifestyle.

Like trying to get married is gonna be a whole nother hurdle.

And he's the oldest son and like the significance of like the family order and how his parents did all these things to try to kind of pray the gay away.

Um, so close to sending him to foreign countries and other institutions to try not to be gay.

And then as the episode is ending, it comes to light that he was sexually abused.

okay.

Um, his parents knew about it, but because of the scandal, so dad, they think he's gay because of what happened from being sexually assaulted, then like they can't out it because that would bring too much attention to them as the leaders of the church.

So it's not like they can persecute the persecutor that hurt their kid.

a fucking double

Oh.

Oh my gosh.

I know.

I know.

I was just like.

And so, and he's not ready to leave his faith.

It's, it's so a part of the fabric of his soul Yeah.

And who he wants to be.

And then you can also just see like the attachments to not wanting to disappoint your parents, but also

Esther episode.

Yes.

The conviction of going and I'm gay and the bravery it took to like come out, even though you're still have this sense of disapproval.

So what Esther was sort of bringing it to was.

The double bind.

No wonder you are, you're actually looking for a partner, that may be, there's so many qualifications of who they have to be.

That person may not exist, and that's why wanting that person is safe.

Because you get to stay in your family.

You get to want this thing that will probably be really hard to find.

You're looking for a needle in a

Yeah, so.

you might not like them when you find them.

Like they might check all the boxes, but you don't have the Chi with them.

You

Right.

And in order to have them, you don't get your family, so you have to pick.

So instead of not picking, you find something impossible to find.

Oh, oh, oh.

Oh, I know, right?

Like gut wrenching, so you

Oh, prayers to that man.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to all the people out there who you know, who are in a compromised or marginalized position, and we just want you to know that our hearts go out to you so deeply and, um.

You know, there is support.

There is really

that's right.

to get, to be seen and to be supported and to be helped.

So, um, don't give up on looking for what you need in order to be your full self in this lifetime.

Yeah, and please go to www.sexreimagined.com, click on the podcast tab.

We have resources in all of our show notes, and we really encourage you to go click on those links and you might just find more episodes that you're excited to listen to.

So thanks everybody for being here.

We'll catch you on the flip side.

Love, love, love.

Thanks for tuning in.

This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr.

Willow Brown.

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Let's realize this new world together.