This is the first time I've gotten something right.

And I don't mean just this show Campsy Media March Rory.

If you were arrested for a serious crime, let's say, armed robbery.

Okay, what's the best alibi you could possibly.

Come up with for armed robbery?

Yeah?

Well I probably couldn't say I needed the money.

Oh wait, is the alibi is where I was?

Yeah?

Exactly.

I guess the motive would be I needed the money, which everyone's motive.

Oh I thought you said motive.

I believe you confessed we got you got him?

My alibi I don't know.

I guess my alibi could be I was.

I was in another country.

I was in Europe, so it couldn't have been me.

I have the hardest thing to prove.

What were you doing in Europe?

What people do there?

Cigarettes?

Wine, bread, cheese?

Fall in love with psych?

I fell in yes, felling in love with psych.

It's like, who cares?

It's like whatever.

I mean, It's not bad, but it's not as good as the one a guy in Texas gave after he went through a trial, was convicted of armed robbery and sentenced to life in prison.

Already Texas, So it's already gonna be bigger.

It's already gonna be bigger and better.

So that whole time, the poor guy insisted on his innocence.

He was not the masked figure in the video footage prosecutors used, not the guy an eyewitness swore was the suspect.

But this dude never once played his trump card that he couldn't possibly have done this very serious crime that risked sending him to prison for the rest of his life because he was already in police custody.

He was in jail when it happened.

Oh oh, interesting, that would be the best alibi.

I'm already a pretty I'm already in jail.

Feels pretty ironclads, Yeah, literally and figuratively.

This incredible story of the Texas man who was convicted and sentenced to life in prison because he flat out forgot that he had the best possible alibi available.

After the break This week on Crime Liss, ironclad Alibis and the people who just won't believe them?

Where was the dun un done?

Oh sir, Do I do it every time?

No?

Not every time?

Hello, and welcome back to Crime List, the podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals and teaches us valuable lessons about remembering where we were at all times in case that information should later become important, like when you're wrongfully accused of a crime.

I'm Josh Deine and I am Murray Scovil, So Rory.

This is a story that follows an unusual path for a crime narrative.

It starts out sad, it's a tragedy of sorts, but has a happy ending.

Oh okay, I just need to say all that here at the top, because we're not a show that aspire us to tug heart strings or to inspire emotional campaigns to free the wrongfully convicted.

But we are a show that aspires to give happy endings.

Hey now, I mean it was right there.

So we're here to talk about weird crime stuff you almost couldn't make up, and this one certainly qualifies.

Let me set the stage for you.

Okay.

Back on December thirteenth, two thousand and nine, a young man enters a T Mobile store in Houston, Texas, armed with a gun, and he robs the place.

In the process, he struck a clerk, So you got armed robbery and assault cops pretty quickly center their investigation on a thirty four year old dude named Ladandrel Montgomery, and there was good reason to look at La Dondrell.

He'd a long record and was a suspect and several other armed robberies.

Less than a year after his arrest.

In November twenty ten, Ladndrell is put on trial and convicted, largely because of the testimony of the shop clerk who idd him.

The judge gives him a life sentence because the violent nature of the robbery and because of his record.

Then, while preparing his apeace because he's been convicted, Ladndrel's attorney, Ronald Ray, discover something amazing, something that proves his client was innocent.

He literally could not have committed the crime because he was in jail.

Oh Man.

He'd been arrested on a domestic violence charge on December eleventh, two thousand and nine, two days before the robbery, and was still in Harris County jail on December thirteenth.

The problem is he forgot the release was apparently so close to the date of the crime that he simply couldn't remember that he couldn't possibly have done it, and neither could his attorney nor the prosecutor, neither of whom bothered to do the simplest fucking research checked out my police record.

I was about to say, isn't that kind of where you start with your client, like where were you?

If your client's like I didn't do it, You're like, okay, well then where were you?

Like, isn't that kind of the next question did you do it?

And if the answers know, then where were you?

And if he's like I don't know, then it's your job to go figure out figure out where they were.

Yeah, which in this case, all you had to do was look at his prisoner for criminal record.

He was in jail.

Yeah yeah, yeah, Oh my god.

So Ronald Ray files for a new trial, and on December eighth, the twenty eleven judge Mark kent Ellis overturned his conviction and had some pretty stern words for pretty much everyone else.

The judge said, it boggles the mind, frankly that it took this long.

Both sides are spectacularly incompetent.

Wow, not wrong, I mean yeah, he was ready to roast that day, honestly.

The prosecutor, Alison Bainbridge, blamed Ladndrel, saying that he testified in court in his own defense and proclaimed his innocence, but never once provided the alibi.

Ronaldray said this, he just couldn't remember, Yeah, which I have to say seems like some terrible loitering.

Like when you.

Sit down and set up a defense, isn't this the very first thing you look for?

Yeah, a viable alibi.

I don't blame this guy, because if he did have an extensive rap sheet, he maybe would be like, you know, I don't know when I've been in and out of custody, you know what I mean, he might not even have thought.

He might have even thought, oh I can't even I won't even able to proclaim my innocence anyways.

I mean, he could have an extensive rap sheet for other things he didn't even do, and he's just like, yeah, I tried to prove that I didn't do it, and it doesn't get you anywhere.

Yeah, we do know.

The system's not great for everybody.

There's a world where he was just like, ah, fuck it, Yeah, maybe I did do it.

I don't even know.

It feels like kind of what happened, he doesn't even care.

Yeah, I mean, thankfully, in this case, they finally realized it, but here's the asterisk.

Rather than free Ldandre.

Once they realized he literally could not have committed the crime, they convicted him of.

Prosecutors refiled five other robbery charges and said the Ladandre still could get life if any.

Of those stuck.

Yeah, so they just were like, let's get this guy right, which kind of defends his point.

He's just like, you know, what, what am I gonna do?

You keep bringing me in here, whether I did or didn't do something.

And most worries about the case make one point that's sort of hard to deny if you can't remember you were in jail because you've been in jail so much, maybe you should use this freakish circumstance where you got your life sentence tossed to turn over a new leave.

Yeah, yes, yes, well we don't know.

We'll have to check back in in a future episode to see if the Dondrel has managed to stay out of jail.

I'm rooting for him.

Oh, I thought that was going to be the crazy, intense happy ending that he started a foundation.

Not yet, but maybe he'll be inspired by this episode of Crime Lak.

Yeah, guys, don't forget even at Crime List we're assuming happy endings as well.

So yeah, you go into the wrong massage parlor and assume maps, you'll get yourself in jail.

Rory, all right, on the subject of incredible alibi stories, I want to tell you about a different guy with a wild tale.

This one is a man from Chicago who is exposed for his incredibly effective lying after an investigation by Pro Publica and the Chicago Tribune.

And it's a banger man.

Oh nice.

It's about a guy I named.

Jeffrey Creeve who got a whole mess of moving violations, speeding, running red lights, you name it, and starting around twenty thirteen, according to pro Publica and the Tribune, he began to beat those tickets by using one very effective alibi.

The Tribune story opens with three anecdotes from three different traffic court appearances at which Creeve was sworn in under oath and then stood before a judge.

The first one is from January twenty twenty one, for running a red light.

Well, that morning I broke up with my girlfriend and she stole my car, Creeve told a judge in August twenty twenty one.

It was a speeding ticket.

Yeah, I broke up with my girlfriend earlier that morning, had a knocked down, drag out fight.

Verbally, of course, she took my car without my knowledge.

And then in May twenty twenty two, another speeding ticket.

I broke up with my girlfriend that day and she took the car without my knowledge.

I didn't get my car back for three days, but it was her driving the car.

Creeve didn't just make that claim that his girlfriend did it in every case.

He also produced police reports, oh signed by real cops the judge each time dropped the ticket and crime.

How did he pull it off?

I have I'm dazzled by this.

What do you think he well had to do?

The red flag that's popping up for me already is wouldn't the arresting or the ticketing officer be like, well, no, I know that I gave it to him.

I pulled him over, I gave him a speeding ticket.

So right there, you're close to the truth.

Rory, right there.

I'm kind of like, wouldn't they be in court to go No, that's not true, or unless they were bribed and these cops are bad, in on it, in on it, that is correct.

He was a cop himself, is this the first time I've gotten something right.

And I don't mean just this show.

I feel like you often get inside the mind of the criminal.

Once we're in the once word, we're in.

The throes of it.

So he was a cop himself.

Yes, God, I wish I would have said that.

That's the ultimate, like put me on at any escape room we're getting out.

So the first occurrence reporters could find of this was December twenty thirteenth, that's nine years before the last one, when a judge asked Creeve why he was contesting a ticket.

Here's the first one they could find on record.

My ex girlfriend, well, I love this took my car two days prior after I broke up with her.

I filed a police report that it was stolen, and they recovered it approximately a week after the fact.

He said, here's the police report that was done.

I did have her arrested approximately three weeks ago, and I got a court date coming up in January.

And as any of that slightly true, like wouldn't they look into that?

I think his buddies were just like he was making up fake reports and people were signing off on him because it's isn't Chicago to corrupt to the core.

Lane lives there.

So that tells you.

All you need.

Yeah, yeah, especially.

Yeah corrupt place, great restaurants, good, great comedy scene.

Love the lake, Love the Lake.

Soldier Field is beautiful, Soldier Field, Come on jazz, Thank you show.

This is very kind of you.

See a show, Frank Lloyd write, architecture We've got.

If there's one thing we can tell you to avoid in Chicago, it's don't get caught up with an ex girlfriend.

Got to steal your car every time and break a lot of laws.

Yes, in your honor.

So the pro public investigation revealed that between twenty fifteen and twenty twenty two, Creve got fifty one traffic tickets and paid only two of them.

Not every one of those dismissals was thanks to my girlfriend did it excuse?

But reporters found that this particular excuse worked forty four times in front of twenty three judges.

Wow.

And it's even.

More astounding when you hear that just four percent of tickets in Chicago are contested and only one in ten of those who opts to fight a ticket actually wins.

So he was totally busting the curve.

This guy's like, well, some insider trading, you know what I mean?

He did?

Yeah, he's he's a Martha.

He's one of Martha's.

He's a Martha.

She's not.

She's not though, But he was lying, and that's what Martha did.

He did so.

Finally, in twenty twenty three, after the pro public a Chicago Tribune story, prosecutors announced perjury and forgery charges against Creeve.

He had to pay his badge taken, and he was pushed into retirement, and investigators announced that any cases that Hinge on his testimony over his twenty six years on the Chicago PD could be in jeopardy.

Some were immediately tossed.

It's such a classic dark night situation.

Also filmed in Chicago, was it?

It was?

My mother in law was in that movie.

Okay, braggy in the background, which scene.

A big one with a lot of people.

Oh good, Yeah, she was so good.

It might have gotten cut, who knows.

Yeah, at some point, at some point, why couldn't this guy just obey the speed limit?

I know that's the thing he needed.

He was so bad at just a violating not just any rules of the road.

Yeah, are all these minor infractions.

Was there one that you would say, I couldn't remember if you had given one where you're like, whoa, that was pretty severe.

No, it was like blowing a stop side, like you couldn't just be And maybe he just he knew he'd get forced into retirement and that was the ultimate goal.

I mean, this is I think pathological behavior.

So I feel like it's it must have been a game to him.

Yeah like that.

I think you're right he enjoyed the getting out of it.

Yep.

Yeah.

And I think he also wanted everyone to think he had a lot of girlfriends, crazy girlfriends.

They're funny.

He was pretty insecure at this guy.

He likes a crazy lady because they're more fun anyway, So he left the force.

But you know what they say about leopards, Rory, Oh no, I don't.

Shortly, they never changed their spots.

Oh okay, all right, yeah, I didn't know that people ever referenced leopards to such a degree.

Well, okay, you thought I was going to bring back the wet owl.

You know what they say about wet owl.

You know what they say.

So shortly after retirement, according to the Chicago Tribune, Creve got three more speeding tickets and he paid them all.

What just drive like a normal.

Then he got three more tickets.

He's probably out there some more speeding right now.

I can't believe you can't just make one adjustment, take the take your foot off the pedal just slightly.

Nope.

I hope these are all minor too.

I hope it's like going sixty and a fifty five where where you're kind of on his side about it.

After the break, the one where Larry David saved a guy by taking a hooker to a Dodgers game.

Oh yeah, stay tuned.

This is Colin's Larry Daven.

I've worked with Larry David.

I did a scene in the very last episode of Curb that was cut Oh man, it was cut out.

What were you gonna do?

What were you?

I was the manager of a hotel and Susie was, uh for some reason.

I don't actually know the full story because you don't really get a script, but she was like dressed like a prostitute, like a sex worker, and I was kicking her out the hotel because that's what I thought was going on, and Larry's like, no, just my friend, and I go client, you're one of her clients, and we improvised the whole scene and then it got cut.

Damn.

But I saw the scene with me in it, and it's trimmed down so much.

I was like, oh, even if you left it in, it's kind of like I got cut.

So either way, well, this is a story about hookers too.

Oh good.

You know you've been.

Covering crime stories for too long when you have a favorite alibi story.

But that's where I am.

Have you heard the one about Larry David?

I have heard this?

Yeah, all right, good?

So this one is so good that it became a Netflix documentary called Long Shot.

So maybe you saw that.

I did not see that, but I have known about this, which almost feels like an urban myth, but I do know.

I know it's true.

It is, indeed so the nutshell, and I will trigger warnering you here, Rory, because the crime that precipitated it all is a bad one.

Back in two thousand and three, a sixteen year old named Martha Pueblo was shot and killed outside her La Area home, just a few days after she appeared at a preliminary hearing about two other murders allegedly committed by her ex boyfriend, a local gang member named Jose Ledesma.

Cop soon arrested a suspect in Martha's murder.

His name is Juan Catalan, and charged him with her murder under the theory that he was acting on Ledesma's orders to keep Martha quiet.

An La County prosecutor charged Catalan with first degree murder and planned to pursue the death penalty if she can convict him, which seemed likely because this lawyer had literally never lost a murder case.

Oh I like that even more.

A little bit of yeah, a little bit of juice to it, stakes razor.

I think they say, yeah, that's the phrase I was looking for.

Cards are stacked against her.

Yeah, I went with juice added, But you're right, your phrase is better.

I know.

This feels like we've probably wandered pretty far from the friendly pastors of Larry David.

But hang in there, because Wan Catalan had an alibi.

He couldn't have murdered Martha because he was at a Dodger's game with his six year old daughter when it happened.

His attorney, Todd Melnick, did find some foot that seemed to show Catalan, but it wasn't clear enough to be definitive, not even in combination with a ticket stumb from the game, which he had.

Catalan was crestfallen.

He'd been in jail for months.

Then the unlikeliest white night arrived.

Larry Davis LD you see Rory.

Larry's show Curb Your Enthusiasm was also shooting at Dodger Stadium that night.

It was the sixth episode from season four, which aired in twenty seventeen.

The episode is titled The Carpool Lane.

Do you remember it?

No?

I don't?

All right.

Basically the plot, Larry's supposed to go to a Dodgers game, but the traffic is at a standstill except for the carpool lane, which is wide open.

He calls Cheryl, who suggests he take the carpool lane, but Larry doesn't want to get a ticket.

Okay, I like this setup lane.

He got a clip for us.

Oh my god, Oh you just see the traffick.

The only thing movie is the carpooling.

I'll love him make it.

I'm just gonna go home.

I'm not gonna use the car pooling by myself, because I do I don't want to.

Just then, a prostitute approaches his car her name is Monina.

Hey, daddy, you want a date with Mom?

Get in the car.

I love it all right.

So anyway, at some point in his quest to prove his innocence and literally saved himself from a life in prison, Wan Catalan remembers there was.

Something being filmed at the stadium that night, and his.

Lawyer, Todd Melinick, calls the Dodgers and finds out it was Curby Enthusiasm.

He contacts the producers, gets all the raw footage, and dives in coming every second of every shot in a stadium filled with fifty six thousand fans, until he finds some frames of Larry walking through the stands and there's Wan Catalan with his daughter.

Oh my gosh from the snack bar.

Oh that's incredible, and that footage is all he needs.

He's cleared of charges in Martha's real killer is later.

Caught and convicted.

Oh man, Larry, bless his heart, appears in the dock and delivers as you would expect him to.

I think we have that clip too.

I met him in the office a couple of weeks ago, and he's a delightful and delightful man, and I actually do anything for me right now, anything anything I want.

Let me tell you.

To have somebody that obligated to you for the rest of their lives.

This gives me a good feeling.

That's the whole reason to want to save somebody's life.

To have someone obligated to you, that's great.

I'm not sure what the lesson this is, Rory, what's the lesson?

The lesson is try to see as many Dodgers games as possible, because you never have any clue when someone out there is going to accuse you of murder, and you want to be like, no, I was at Dodger Dodger Dog Night, Free Dodger Dog.

There's always going to be a celebrity nearby too.

Jason Bateman's always there.

You always have an alibi, You always have someone to say, hey, look I I Jason Bateman saw in that game.

I mean, pretty incredible of all the people because it it just feels like it like that should that would be a curb episode, right right, Like Larry accidentally saves a man's life, yes, happening to run into him at a Dodger game.

Yeah, It's amazing how often there's some circumstances.

I'm like that was a curb your enthusiasm.

That was a curb your enthusiasm.

This one specifically was art imitating life, life imitating art, a convergence, and Larry's right that man ows him forever forever.

I would love to find out what Larry made him pay up on.

They're probably best pals now.

Yeah, well that's that.

We ended a happy ending this week.

Oh no, sorry, not that kind of happy ending.

Oh okay, great, great.

After the break our world famous final segment now in Dolby technicolor.

I don't know what that means.

You wrote it, I.

Know, Hello and welcome back to Crimeless.

You're one stop shop for ridiculous album.

I just want to say for the record, Roy, they would be an honor to provide an alibi for you.

Should you ever need one, and I it would be an honor for you to provide one, double honor.

Like, if one of these episodes inspires you to go big, just call and I will tell the cops you were at a Nickelback show?

Is that a data joke?

Is Nickelback too old of it?

What's today's Nickelback?

Oh?

Good question?

Benson boon Benson boone, Yes, good one.

He does backflips he does, Laane, good choice, Thank you.

Ory.

Do you know are you familiar with the oover of Benson Boone?

I'm not.

He had a pretty big moment.

He was pretty big at the beginning of the summer.

I think he's Mormon, he will yeah, well he checks all the boxes for me so far.

He wears like silver one piece like jump suits.

I think I've seen clips of him doing a backflip.

You have, yeah, you for sure have yep.

His his jumpsuits are a little tight for my liking, and they're usually like shiny yep.

Some people like them kind of what I have on underneath what I'm currently wearing.

What if we start wearing silver one piece?

Look, Tapings, this show can go anywhere.

It can only grow from here.

It has to grow all right, Lane, what do you have for us this week?

Today?

So we've heard some some good alibi some of the best ones, and I want to do a roundup of some of the worst ones, the flimsiest ones.

Today on Lane's Games.

Waiting for that.

So I'm just going to read you some some setups and you have to tell me what their excuses or albis were for why they didn't do it, and they did do it as a as.

A close, Oh so they did do it.

We are making up albis that.

You're trying to guess what bad alibi they Okay.

Which ones they provided?

Yeah?

Okay, all right.

First one, an Indiana woman was caught in bezzling fifteen thousand dollars worth of benefits from the state Department of Education.

What was her explanation?

What was her excuse?

How do you embezzle benefits?

I'm confused already.

Do we each get one question?

It's not fair if Josh is allowed a question.

A question she stole money?

So she so she did agree that she did do it.

We're answering she said, this is why she said she did it, or she's saying I couldn't have done it because.

She said she couldn't have done it because oh, okay.

She couldn't have done it because she has religious for religious reasons, she doesn't acknowledge money, the existence of that.

And my guess is because she forgot her passport and couldn't log into her computer.

Oh interesting, Both those are wrong.

She said it was her evil twin oh.

So much better classic great one.

Yeah, and Josh, it's because somebody at the Department of Education noticed that there was fifteen thousand dollars missing from the Childcare Development Fund.

So she just stole it, well, from the kids fund.

Yeah, that's always what gets you when you steal from kids.

Next up.

In twenty eleven, the police were called on Thomas Stroup, a twenty year old who had been reported drinking too much in picking fights.

They found him pass out in his trailer.

When he woke, he slurred his Albi in a fake Russian accent.

What was it?

So he's being accused of getting in fights?

He was just the Yeah he was.

He was picking fights, being disorderly conduct.

He couldn't do it because he can't walk.

He's handicapped.

Disabled.

Interesting, Josh, always taking it to places no one expected.

He couldn't have done it because he doesn't speak the language of combat.

Take that, Josh, that's very interest.

You can use the word eloquent if you Okay, it was eloquent, well done work.

He told cops he was a werewolf.

He was scratched by a wolf on a trip to Germany and he was changing in the moon.

Oh so he did do it, but he was a were wolf.

It was his werewolf.

Is that a I need to see some legal precedent.

Is that a albi?

My werewolf other self did it?

Yeah?

I guess this is just like excuses.

I don't know what what what would you call?

What's the legal term for saying like lies?

These are?

This is a lie?

These are called aliblies, all right?

Another one a twenty eight year old man in Sweden who's known as the Lama Man because of his signature move spitting in folks faces like a lama.

During one of his outbursts at a hospital, he strangled one guard and dislocated the leg of another.

What did he blame on this outburst?

Shit, it wouldn't be an alibi.

I guess this is one of his excuses.

Aliblies.

Dislocated a leg, improper medication he was given.

He was given the wrong pills in its broadest terms.

I don't.

I'm in the past.

I don't.

Story is a good one.

Well, I like your answer.

I was gonna say he was drunk or something close.

I mean he it was a nutmeg induced frenzy, he said.

The nutmeg contains a psychoactive drug, which the Lama Man blamed for his rage.

He was eventually sentenced from a multitude of charges.

Hard to not believe him.

You know, it wasn't him, It was the nutmeg that did it.

Yeah, I mean, think about the holidays.

That's when you're ingesting the most nutmeg, and that's when you get the most furious at your family.

True, that's when I dislocate the most legs.

There you go, same relatable.

I believe him, I for one believe all these people.

What there's so many specific weirdos out there, Like someone has spit so many times that he's been named the Lama man.

Yeah, and like kind of proud of.

Its Yeah, yeah, all right, got a couple more railroad air say that ten times fast.

Harry K Thaw shot famed architect Stanford White in nineteen o six.

He pleaded not guilty on account of what.

He thought the gun was a was a blank?

Was a stage gun?

He God, I actually really liked that.

Like he just came from a production of something.

Rusted, produced by Alcobahala okay, Josh, always taking it to places no one wanted it to go.

Can we edit that part out lane?

No, have to keep it in legally, we legally have.

To leave it in no cuts.

Nos video, Josh, this is the future.

You're listening to lanes Games raw edition.

I don't know what he did.

Maybe he was possessed.

He was possessed by the ghost of a murderer, and it wasn't his fault.

Technically, both of those are wrong, but Rory is a little closer.

His lawyer said that he had dementia americana, which is the species of insanity which makes every American man believe the honor of his wife is sacred.

Wow, that's because Stanford White was cheating with Harry Cathee.

Okay, we could have used that information.

Yeah, yeah, not.

That I'm reading that, I probably should include that in there.

You also could have said Americana dementia my favorite punk rock group.

You could have said they're going to be referenced.

Yeah, sorry, but yeah, he just loves his wife so much she killed somebody else.

Yeah, that's true love, all right.

Last one, and I think you guys this could you could get one of these.

It's kind of a popular popular crime infamous Lizzie Borden.

She was acquitted of murdering her father and stepmother with a hatchet in eighteen ninety two.

What was her story.

I'd accept many many alibis.

Wow, Okay, I want to go.

I want to reuse my possessed card because I feel like something's going to add up here.

She she had a psychotic episode and she thought there were trees.

Because she was also a butcher.

Hmm, a bunch of trees.

Yeah, that's a let's call a lumberjack.

Well, call it what you want.

I'm old fashioned.

Final answer, locking it in, locking possessions.

Okay, I would have accepted.

She was looking for sinkers for a fishing trip in the barn.

Not a fishing trip in the barn, but a fishing trip.

The sinkers were in the barn.

Uh, she wandered off and ate four pairs.

She had gone to look for iron to fix the window in their house, and she was actually in the house when it happened, but she just didn't hear anything.

She couldn't have been there.

She couldn't have murdered them because she was like looking for fishing, right.

Except for the except for the one where she was there but she didn't hear it.

Yeah, because that one was an alibi, not an alibi.

Yeah, the real thinker of a game.

You're right, I think we were right about that.

I was confused throughout.

Yeah, mission accomplished.

Confused generally how I feel throughout the day.

I feel generally confused.

So yeah, all right, I think it's clear that I want the truth, want truth lost the truth?

Yea, the truth will set you free, although not in this case.

They were acquitted and they were lied.

Yeah, like the great, No, what's gonna say.

Like, we're not lawyers.

That's what I'm learning.

Yeah, we will be soon.

You get a degree at the end of season one.

Yeah, if you're listened every episode.

God, all right, well, uh until next week.

Crimeless is a production of SmartLess Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

It's hosted by Rory Scovel and me Josh Dean.

Our senior producer is Lane Rose.

Emma Stimenov is our associate producer.

We're sound designed and engineered by Blake Brook with support from Ewan letrim Ewen Mark McAdam composed our theme song.

The executive producers at Campside Media are Vanessa Gloriatis, Matt Cher, and me Josh Dean.

The executive producers for iHeart Podcasts and Big Money players are Jack O'Brien, Lindsay Hoffmans, and Matt Appadaca.

For smart Let's Media.

The executive producers are Will Arnette, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and Richard Corson.

Bernie Kaminski is head of Production.

The Associate producer is Mattie McCann.

A special thanks to our operations team, Ashley.

Warren and Sabina Marra.

If you have a question, comment, or confession for the Crimeless team, email us at Crimeless at campsidmedia dot com.

And if you enjoyed Crime List, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.

It helps people find the show and also makes us feel validated, unless you're mean, in which case keep it to yourself.

We'll see you next week.

Crime List Nations