Welcome back to Spill the Tea, everyone.

Today we're continuing to talk about our theme of rising, and underneath that, what we're going to talk about is preventing burnout so that you can rise.

And so when we were preparing for today's episode, I was thinking about burnout a little bit and I wanted to pose this question to everybody.

So I wonder, when thinking about burnout, do you think it's easier to recognize burnout in someone else than it is yourself?

And if you were to like call it out in someone else, do you think you'd call those same things out in yourself?

Wow, that's jumping right in Keri, I think as a supervisor, I've had to call it out.

So yes, I would, because that's part of my job duties.

What do?

you think you were calling out?

Like what led you to call it out?

Like what were the actions or things you saw?

Lack of effort, lack of being engaged.

I work with youth workers, so engagement's a big thing.

And the energy level when their energy level is down, frustrated, snippy, irritable.

So, as a supervisor, yes, that's an easy thing to say.

Hey, I noticed some things are off and do you want to talk about it?

Do you think that's the only time you recognize burnout in someone else, like in a supervisory capacity?

Well, that's probably unlikely, but that's the easiest low hanging fruit.

Can I be honest?

I will say that you all have probably been able to recognize the burnout within me.

Um, I obviously attended a lot of the podcasts, a lot more from the beginning and then, between life and mothering and my new job and so many things and dedicating my time to the podcast, I 100% got burnt out and it slowly led me to I don't want to say draw back from the podcast, but it felt like sometimes Mondays were my only day to actually have that day to myself and to have that break.

And, okay, if I'm not going to snap today, I need to set that boundary for myself and I feel bad because I did make that promise and responsibility to this group of women, but at the same time, I need to present myself in the best way because we are leading up to this retreat about rising and we're going to be guiding these women towards that goal.

So I need to best prepare myself, whether it be taking a step back from a responsibility or promise that I made, but in the long run it's for my best good and the good of the whole like that and I wouldn't say I recognize that in you.

I just thought you were taking care of yourself.

It's a mix of both burnout and taking care of myself.

Right, I don't love the term burnout because I feel like it puts a lot of the blame on the person rather than the situation that led them to feel that way.

Them to feel that way Personally, I have noticed, you know, I don't even want to call it burnout, but just fatigue, and fatigue from the system that we're in.

Especially, I feel like it's easy to relate it to work, like mom was saying you notice a coworker maybe isn't laughing as much as they were the day before or the week before or or the month before, or they're not as interested in sitting at lunch with everybody and, um, I think that's totally fine and everybody needs to find their own way to survive and enjoy life.

So, like I said, don't love the term burnout I don't either I would.

I'm glad you talked about that, erin, because I was thinking that I was trying to think about what.

What happened when I feel burnout?

Like what is it really?

What does that mean?

That's such a weird like term and so like.

If I try to erase like all of the like little things out of like I was burned out because of this or I was burned out because of that, and get like underneath all of that, it's when I lose joy in something I'm doing, like that seems to be that's the thing.

Like you just cause you stop caring, you like lose joy in whatever it is and you get burnout right Because you're doing something you can't find joy in.

Yeah, and what it sounds like you're describing, that instead of burnout, it's boundaries.

What Brooke is describing is setting boundaries and you can make a commitment to something and then realize that I'm now overextended because of these other things and so I need to reassess and reboundary, and so maybe when the joy is lost, you are unboundaried and just need to reassess and draw those lines up again and say I can no longer commit to what I said I would and be okay with that.

Right and not apologize, like.

What I heard from you, brooke, is that you're sorry and I don't want you to feel sorry.

It's okay to have your own boundary.

It's okay to realize I'm overextended and, like Mary said, I need to re-boundary.

Can I say I don't feel bad for apologizing.

I apologize because I want to take responsibility for the lack of attentiveness to the promise that I've made, but at the same time, an apology was owed because there was a lack of communication on my part.

It was just a quick, sudden pullback.

I felt like and it wasn't fair to the group, but at the same time I know that there's so many amazing women in this group that will step up when I have to take that step back and I'm thankful enough that, like Erin, you 100% noticed it.

So just makes me feel better apologizing at the end of the day for it.

Well, we love you no matter what.

As long as the apology is to benefit you, because it isn't required.

I appreciate that you guys.

I think that it's socially acceptable to be burnout at work, but when you start saying I'm burnout with my friends, or I'm burnout at home, or I'm burnout as a mother, or I'm burnout as a sister or a daughter, I think that those types of burnouts are not socially acceptable.

Where it is socially acceptable to complain to everybody that'll listen that you are burnt out with how crappy your job is.

I think you're right.

I think you kind of hit the nail on the head.

I think it is socially acceptable to be burnout with work, but in our roles is in our other roles, it doesn't seem as acceptable, whatever that role is, maybe as a wife, as a daughter, as a mother, you know all of those things like then it's like, well, what's wrong with you, with you, like, step up to the plate, which isn't fair, like everybody.

That's why, like I said to you, brooke, like I feel like you were taking care of yourself sometimes that's what we need to do, and if that's what you need to do, I'm, I'm, I'm glad you did that, I'm glad you took the time to take care of yourself, even if you feel like there, you know, you felt like you needed to say you were sorry for it.

I don't feel like what you saying you're sorry was more like you trying to show, like respect to the people you care about, which I appreciate.

I don't think that the I'm sorry was necessary, but I appreciate what you said and why you said it.

I think we also talk about friendship boundaries.

Interestingly, you talk about like a high maintenance friend or a low maintenance friend.

I see that a lot on social media being low maintenance and I think just being a low maintenance friendtenance friend I see that a lot on social media being low-maintenance and I think just being a low-maintenance friend is being a good friend, understanding that your friends are going through things and they may not be readily available to you to, I don't know, go get coffee.

Sometimes your friend is too tired or is overstimulated or doesn't want to leave the house, and that's okay.

But picking up where you left off when both friends are feeling completely, 100% in is nice and that's that quote-unquote low-maintenance friend.

I think there was a time too in the past 20 years.

There was a time that T went on hiatus for a little bit and part of that had to do with my burnout and not being able to rectify that or communicate my needs as eloquently as you just did, Brooke.

So I appreciate that and I think that, as women, maybe we are helping younger women like yourself be able to communicate when we need that space and that breath.

I 100% agree.

Something that I've realized also in the last little bit of my burnout, is that sometimes we really want to hear what we want to hear, but it's not what we need.

We need to be told the truth and the hard truth about the situation, and sometimes it's uncomfortable.

But those boundaries are required and those conversations are 100% necessary for you to move forward and not feel stagnant in a situation, not fall into repeated patterns, and that will lead to burnout as well.

So it's just really having awareness for situations as well and accountability for yourself.

Absolutely.

Mary used a word overextending and I think that, for me, is the primary thing leading to when I burn out from something, I start to overextend and commit too much and then I just need to go hide.

I know that we were on a podcast schedule initially.

Wasn't it the first two years really, of every Monday?

And I reflect back on that and think, wow, that was every Monday.

And I reflect back on that and think, wow, that was.

It seems like that was a lot to do and when we took a bit of time to assess where we were going with it did we want to continue.

It was really nice to come up with a different schedule that didn't feel as frequent.

It was tough to do every Monday.

It was when I think of things that I do weekly.

My goodness, that is a huge commitment.

I can't believe that we did that.

We were gangbusters.

That was sustained for a long time.

That was sustained for a long time.

But those were signs that we listened to and as a group decided to try to change, to see if it would improve on the number of people showing up for the podcast and all of that.

And I really like how we moved to the Rise theme connecting it to the retreat and all of that.

Just, it seemed to make more sense in what we were doing and what our purpose was for doing the podcast.

Yeah, I think it's a great example of overcoming burnout.

As a group, we were definitely burnt out and at a breaking point of do we even continue to do this?

And, as we did, some soul searching.

Everyone that's on here was like no, I really enjoy podcasting.

It's the schedule that we're trying to keep and it's just not sustainable and it's overwhelming.

It's just not sustainable and it's overwhelming.

So we reconfigured that and we added some structure and I think that that's been really a great testament to how we could overcome burnout, and I think it's a good example of that, so re-identifying those boundaries, having really hard conversations.

Re-identifying those boundaries but also your priorities.

I think it's really hard to prioritize when there are so many things that you love to do Personally.

There's just so many things that I would love to do every single day.

I love music, I love crafting, I love healthcare.

I love everything.

Yeah, I completely appreciate that, Erin.

You know, and I was thinking, this week things have been busy.

I was sharing with the group before we started recording that.

I moved and got back from Germany and I just have had a really crazy schedule and I hurt my ankle oddly Well, I didn't oddly hurt it, I fell down the stairs, I fine, no they're always having an accident.

There's always a moving accident and it always involves a foot or a ankle.

Anyhow.

I was thinking yesterday or a couple days ago like, oh, there's this podcast lingering and I have to edit it, and I don't know if I have the time.

There's this podcast lingering and I have to edit it, and I don't know if I have the time or the energy to do it.

And I took a minute and I was like, oh my goodness, there's this person I know that is really skilled at this and would enjoy it, and I'm going to ask this person if they want to do it.

And when I asked, they were like I'm looking for some things to do.

So, yes, I will do that for you.

And then I just listened to the episode with Jonathan and it was so good.

Like it is such a good episode.

It might be one of my top three favorite episodes.

There were so many good things.

If you are raising a young boy, or if you have a brother or a husband or know anybody that identifies as male, it is so good.

And again I was like, oh, that was an easy thing.

That never occurred to me until then.

So, Carrie, your original question also was if you see it in other people and if you see those same behaviors in yourself, do you have a critical?

eye towards that as well.

And gosh, I think it's easier to see it in myself than it is necessarily to see it in anybody, in other people.

Certainly, I feel like friends will come and they'll tell you that they're feeling overwhelmed at work.

They're not going to do that if you're not necessarily, if you're not an open leader, but but it seems like when you're in conversations with friends, you can.

You can be a friend and help them through that.

You can be a friend and help them through that.

But when Tracy was describing behaviors, I definitely, when I am under stress, my tolerance gets really low and I feel really snippy, really snippy, and Carl might even say, geez, you're in a mood and it's usually because I have put too much stuff on my plate and feel like I need to get all the things done at the same time rather than giving myself time to accomplish the things in a reasonable amount of time, and and quite often it has to do with hosting people at my house, you know, like family, it's about getting all of the cooking done at the right time.

The house has to be clean and, anyway, that's where I find that, that's where I trip up with my overwhelm.

I'm the same way.

I get a very short fuse, I like to call it.

I also wanted to say recognizing burnout in others.

I feel like when you're an empathetic person, it's very easy to see it.

Just in their mannerisms you can tell the vibe is off.

So you know, checking in with people is just so important I think, in terms of group process, when a group is storming, it's so hard to not burn out and just throw your hands up and say, fuck it, I'm done.

That is so true.

What?

are other signs of burnout that you guys have noticed in yourselves, like how do you know I'm not in a good place, I'm feeling burnt out, or I'm feeling tired, I'm not feeling joy in what I'm doing.

For me it's definitely procrastination.

I will start procrastinating doing things because I don't I know I really don't want to do them and then I get to a point where either I just have to decide I'm not going to do them, or I've got to decide why I'm not wanting to do them, or I've got to decide I'm going to do them.

You know, like I've got to get to one of those points and I don't think I usually get snippy.

I think I usually kind of withdraw a little bit and I try to self reflect about, like, what is going on when, why am I not finding joy?

And, like when I tried to think about that like related to work, because, like you said, that kind of seems like the buzzword around work more than your personal life.

Usually, like at work, it's because it's usually like one little thing that's super annoying and I've been lucky enough in my career to work at places where I really have always truly felt like the work I'm doing makes an impact and that is why I go to work and something about a piece of that work becomes annoying or something has happened, some external piece of that work becomes hard or unjust in some way in my mind and I am out, and so I have to make peace with that in some way.

Yes, I also work in a mission-based job.

The mission provides a lot of fulfillment.

So when there is nonsense going on, it feels like that balance of this feels really, really good and I love having this impact on humanity and my community and the people.

But then when the drama and nonsense gets so ridiculous and constant, that is the thing for me.

When it's constant and it just I cannot figure a way around it, over it, under it or through it, when that nonsense is so constant, it makes that Peter Totter move so that all I can focus on is the drama or nonsense and that love of a mission goes down and it's trying to balance that.

It's your bullshit meter it is my bullshit ommeter, bullshit, ommeter you're no assholes motto.

Thank you ave no assholes.

I have a bullshit ommeter I received a bullshit.

You know the the staples easy button.

It's a bullshit.

You know the the staples easy button.

It's a bullshit.

And I think I was.

I received it as a white elephant gift from one of you, perhaps.

Oh I, yes, it carries house.

I think it was from Jennifer.

Okay, all right, and so that's what makes me think of it, your story.

I have a bullshit button and it has four different phrases.

It's really funny.

Phrases Do you know?

I do have a favorite one, but now it's it's uh, it says something like that's a five gallons of bullshit and a one gallon bucket or something, something like that.

It's really funny, but but trace me for the desk whatever I've done, it um, with the dog's paw on it and I'll send it to carl when he's late to come home and either walk her or feed her, when it's like his duty to do that.

So I think we all need bullshit buttons.

I think we do.

And the more fatigue, the more tired, the more burnt out you are.

I feel like your tolerance for bullshit goes way down, way, way down.

You want to be pressing that button every minute.

Yes, way, way down.

You want to be pressing that button every minute.

Yes, and then just like an engine too, when that stays in that red zone for too long, it can't come all the way back, it just comes back a little bit.

It doesn't come all the way back you know when you're describing work, and I reflect back on my work when I worked where Jodi hired me back in the day and we worked in foster care therapeutic foster care and what makes therapeutic foster care unique is that the children that are placed have a mental health diagnosis, and so it's a little more challenging for sure, and I remember after about four years of working there and the hours weren't great, it was working in the evenings and traveling all over, and it was getting to the point where I was feeling like I need to move on from here.

And it was very difficult to read the biographies of the youth.

What brought them into care?

And it would be, you know, extreme abuse and neglect, and it was all those stories just would pile up.

And so I found that it was time to move on and I wanted to get into something that was preventive instead of after the fact, because it felt like I could have a bigger impact that way.

Impact that way, so and so that's.

And so then I started asking around other people where they work, you know, getting curious about what my other options were.

But that was, that was a significant moment of recognizing burnout and and doing something about it.

I can't sustain this.

I can't sustain the schedule, and doing something about it.

I can't sustain this.

I can't sustain the schedule.

I can't sustain these stories, and so then I moved on on my career journey.

Yeah, I think that sometimes burnout does lead to different career options, and that's okay, it's healthy.

I remember when I left the place that several of us worked together.

And I remember when I left the place that several of us worked together and I remember having a conversation with the CEO there and in the middle of the conversation I paused and I was like I think I might be done.

Is that, okay, I had had a horrible year.

We had shut down a program that impacted one in four kids in the county and we had laid off.

I don't even remember, carrie, how many people did we lay off?

We had a team of 42, and I was what was left.

I think, I think I thought we were had a big division at the time.

Like I, feel like it was 42, I think.

I thought we had almost 90 that was huge, uh, yeah, and then.

I was left there for a year by myself to clean things up and help button up programs.

At the end of that I just remember thinking why I'm so burnt out.

I need to leave western New York, leave the area.

Then we had a snowstorm that was horrific and then I was really ready to just go.

And you did, I think.

Since you're talking about that, I also think for me, for a long time the mission did sustain the work I was doing.

Long time the mission did sustain the work I was doing and then I felt like the work wasn't making the impact I had hoped it would, maybe and maybe because of the loss of funding.

And you know, I stayed at that agency doing many different jobs and bouncing around and I just kind of felt like the work wasn't upholding the mission anymore and because of that it was time for me to go.

Yes, yeah, I think that for me, that's the bottom line.

That is the litmus test of is this the right place for me?

Yeah, I don't think that that's a bad thing to say, carious.

I think it's actually very vulnerable and a true thing.

There are times when well, even in marriages or relationships, when you're burnt out Well, like Brooke had said.

Like Brooke was talking about, one of the things I thought about when I was leaving there was that when I first interviewed, I interviewed with someone who I think we would all call a friend and I had told her in that interview I said, if you hire me, I will be a lifetime employee.

Like I wasn't looking to flip around.

The organization was located in my town that I live in and the work was meaningful and I had parents who had, you know, 30, 40 year careers in certain fields and I was going to do the same.

And so when it came time for me to decide I was going to leave, one of the hard things for me was that I had said that thing, that I would stay, and so I rumbled with that for a long time because I did appreciate I was a single mom getting that job.

When I got that job, there was a lot of baggage attached to working there that I was grateful for, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I was ready to move on and there was a reason.

Sometimes the burnout is a symptom of something that is bigger, and the appropriate reaction is to move on, and that's okay.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think, like we are, we find ourselves in different seasons of our lives and it's only fair that, as our lives change, that a commitment that we made, you know your word, that you will be loyal forever, forever.

Don't make that promise ever Right Future you doesn't know what's in store for future.

You Right, carrie.

Your situation changed.

That's a lot different than if you were going to go in there and say, hey, I'm going to be a lifetime employee.

Yeah, I just told them I'm going to be a lifetime employee, so they'll hire me, but I'm out of here as soon as I.

You know that wasn't your intention.

Your intentions were pure.

I think you need to give yourself some grace on that one.

Oh, I totally do.

Okay, I'm just saying, when I was making the decision, that was one of the things I rumbled with, because that is something I.

What you said, though, is something I grew up with.

My my parents were farmers, you know, I know that all of you are connected to farmers and people from this area too, and, like that was some, uh, a value that, for sure, my mom instilled in me, that you don't have a lot of things, but one of the things that you have is your word, and so your word is important, and you know, that's kind of how my grandfather taught her on the farm a handshake, and your word is all you need.

You don't need a contract, you don't need a lot of other things.

You have your word, and you should honor that.

So it was a hard move for me, but I was able to come to terms with it and realize that all the things that you said, mary, like I said that when I was 25, and I am now 50.

So almost 50.

So it was okay to like see that I had done what I could and my time was going to be better served elsewhere so meaningful and for them, you had done the work that you were called to do there.

Yeah, your time there was very meaningful.

I think we do a really good job at starting things and we do a really great job at building them up and we do a good job in the middle and we as a society even do a pretty crappy job putting things to bed, even with death.

We don't do the best job of it, we're just not good at it.

And we're not good at putting things to bed and I think that that for me, was an important lesson when we let that group of staff go because we still had, I think, four or five months and it was important that we did those four or five months with integrity and grace.

And I remember leaving or putting that program to bed, feeling like, wow, we did that right and we didn't really have a guide or a map to do that.

And quite often I don't think we do have a guide or a map to put things to bed in a way that would give it the respect that it deserves.

Yeah, I came into tonight thinking, oh, I'm not really sure.

I have a whole lot to say.

I guess we did.

I didn't know that we would talk like about the podcast too so much.

But that's good so really quick, I have one question when you guys do feel that you are within a state of burnout, what are some self-care practices that you can implement for yourself that work to get out of that burnout?

holding my boundaries.

I need to organize things, Brooke, like I need all of a.

I need to organize things, Brooke, Like I need all of a sudden.

I need to organize everything.

I need to just start tearing things apart closets apart, refrigerators apart and start putting things in order.

And when I start physically putting things in order, then I feel like my brain gets into this cycle of okay, I'm putting things in order, I'm putting things in order.

I'm going to get to the point where I can put this in order too.

So for me, I start to organize, restructure.

Yes.

I'd say I do the same thing, maybe a helpful list to put things to help prioritize.

And if it's like I spoke earlier about hosting something at the house, I ask for help.

I'll ask Carl, he'll do anything.

I ask Will you?

I need to scrub the toilet, would you go?

Would you go do that?

Would you take care of these things that are making me feel this way?

And I don't know why I don't think of it sooner, why I come to the to to be stressed out about it, and I don't know why I don't think of it sooner, why I come to be stressed out about it.

And I should have just asked in the first place.

I'm thinking about a time last week and we're at work.

We're very busy and I find myself distracting myself with email and I start taking care of something that came in email and I'm distracted from the thing that I was supposed to be doing.

And so I noticed that I was doing that a lot last week and feeling like, oh my God, there's so many things that I have to do.

And I started doing it today and I shut down the email.

You know the email, so I wouldn't look and just focus on getting this one thing done.

This other email can wait.

I know it's really important because it's somebody that wants to be a work site for us, and but just stop it.

So I was really assessing in the moment look, I'm doing it again, you know.

So that was something that I just did today.

That's awesome.

I also, brooke, do a four quadrant agenda, so the first quadrant is agenda.

So the first quadrant is the things that are immediate, that need my immediate attention.

The second quadrant is things that should happen this week.

The third quadrant is things that I want to focus on this month and the fourth quadrant is I will get to these things and what will happen to me if I am burning out is that fourth quadrant will start to take over my life and I'll start doing things that have nothing to do with what I need to do.

So, very similar to Mary, that's very helpful.

It's a tool I've used for maybe 15 years.

Trace.

I know you use that tool.

Do you use that tool in your personal life and your work life?

I do yeah.

I've never used it in my personal life, but I've used it in my work life.

I have to uh.

As I have started going through menopause, the ADHD syndromes that I had 10 years ago and wouldn't have called them that then are more prevalent now.

So I have to.

I modified the four quadrant I remember getting that from you and because in my current job there's four main funding streams that I have to work in, and so now each of the quadrant is one funding stream.

Okay, that works too.

I don't know, but I don't think it's working.

No, you know what Quadrant needs a quadrant.

What does that works too, I don't know, but I don't think it's working.

No, you know what quadrant needs a quadrant?

What does that make it?

You know.

You know what, mary, I do the same thing.

I do that with my work.

So I oversee a grant but I have like each of the like major components in a square.

I've got a whole sheet that's got like I don't, I think it's got got like 10 squares on it, so that I know what I need to do under each task, like where I'm at with each thing and like what's pressing with this project and what's pressing with this project and what's pressing with this.

Do you have a?

template.

What's that?

You sent me the template.

It's just a bunch of squares.

I got to see it for myself.

Email it to me tomorrow.

All right, there's what I have a square on there that's like personal stuff too, so that when I'm filling it out, if, like some personal issue pops into my head, I can write that down.

And, like, I have a meeting with my supervisor every couple of weeks, so if there's stuff I want to talk to that person about, I put that in there, so that I have a running list and I don't have to bother them, like with 80 million emails, like unless it's really pressing, I can just put it in that box and I will remember to discuss it.

Yes.

So if you could spare a square, send it to me.

I'll send it to you it's not that exciting.

You see it, you're going to be like a bunch of boxes with one title at the top they're life-changing.

I think that's how to make tea this week, carrie, as you start your own quadrant tool I think that's great yeah brooke.

Is that helpful?

I think that's great.

Brooke, is that helpful?

I think that's very helpful.

It allows for our listeners to recognize burnout within themselves and within those around them, and it also gives them the tools needed that when they do fall within the burnout.

Here's an output.

Try some of these tools and find what works for you.

All right, did we just spill the tea?

We did.