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So, as many of you know, I'm as a huge sports fan, even worked in the briefly helped found a publication focused on sports.

I'm always obsessed with the nexus of sports culture politics in general.

Obviously, I think many of us now realize politics is downstream from culture as it is.

I also am a huge believer that sports is something that actually is a way to knit the country's polarized communities back together, particularly on the local level.

I still think it's the answer on local news.

I say all that as my way of trying to give all of us the excuse who are focused on the political world every now and then to focus on my next guest.

It's your own Weitzman.

He's author of a new book called Hollywood Ending.

It's the Dreams and Drama of the Lebron Lakers.

And yes, it's going to be a bit about the drama of all things having to do with the Lakers, basketball, Lebron.

But I think we all it's fair to say Lebron is part of the larger zeitgeist of America and perhaps the same way Taylor Swift is part of the zeitgeist of America.

People do want to know what does Lebron think about Donald Trump?

Right?

Type of thing?

And oh, by the way, what does Lebron think about Michael Jordan?

Right?

And in that sense, that is sort of the world we live in.

And that's part of my goal of this podcast is to sort of always have an aperture that's wide enough to include all aspects of that.

So there's my rationale and excuse for taking a break your own.

It's good to meet you.

You too, you too.

I love you know, I like that You're making me feel better about myself.

So there you go.

Thank you well.

You pitched Look, you pitched me on this and you did probably say it's a lot, but I have.

I've always been you know, I know a lot of people know that that follow me through politics, know that that, uh, you know, a better than average sports fan is how I'd like to present myself.

That I'm not a I'm not a moron about it, and I do have strong feelings about it, but I am.

I love the culture and if if I could have trade trade careers with you, Roman, I would have done it.

I'm guessing there's a lot of sports writers and reporters I know that would love to be political writers and reporters, and there's a lot of political reporters and writers that would love to be sports reporters.

Always greener, right, But I started in local news, right, So when you talk about your local news stuff and I know what you're doing, now, you know my first I still joke that nobody was ever meaner to me than the Scarsdale to this day, including NBA people, than the Scarsdale New York cheerleading moms who thought I had something out against their children who I weren't featuring enough after a meet.

So, yeah, you you were born with a BIA seconds cheerleaders is trying to naturally, yes, correct, correct, Well, In fact, let's spend a couple of minutes tell me about how you you know, how you got to being a book author.

That's always the goal of a lot of reporters.

Can you get to the point where you don't have to do the day to day grind as much, where you can do the long form reporting, the eighteen month projects rather than the eighteen hour projects.

Yeah.

So for me, I mean, so I started, like I said, local news covering in the Journal news in Westchester, Rockland area, local sports out here, and yeah, I mean NBA was always my sport.

Basketball is always my favorite sport.

And just for me, I learned early on that the sort of my brain works, I like diving into subjects and kind of honing in on things and not being day to day.

I also saw sort of where the business was going and thought that, I mean, now it's maybe kind.

Of the other way.

But you know, ten years ago there was this whole long form thing and feature writing, and there was a bit of a renaissance around it.

In a way, if you can do good stuff that reporting in it, that's part of the other part is it's more importing its But I'm Actually, you know, I'm a Sabbath observant jew, so I knew that being a beat writer was not necessarily gonna be that wouldn't lend itself.

Out fun Friday nights.

We taught that some stuff that happened there, so I had to sort of adjust around that.

So a mix of it.

I just I just even the way I mean, it's more of a media conversation too, but sort of so much as sports.

Reporting, I think other reporting in general, but.

Sports reporting now has gone into the insider, right.

You have these main ten pull insiders.

Adrian wol Janowski, it.

Was a name not there anymore, but these are you know, if you're not big sports fan, who recognized somebody's names, Adam Schefter and the day to day scoops go to them and just it's just it's been did basically otherwise.

Well it's access, you know.

I always say this, you know, I go to a lot of journalism schools.

Yeah, particularly after I left Meet the Press as we try to figure out how to how to you know, how are we going to fix this sort of this next generation A little bit of of of whether it's a trust issue and all of that, and I talk about the different forms of journalism.

There's accountability journalism there, and you know, in politics, when you're an access journalist, that's as negative as it comes.

Oh, you're just you're just being spoon fed.

You're the Trump reporter, or you're the or the Schumer reporter or something like that.

Where in sports, if you're not if you don't have access to the building, you can't do your job as the beat reporter.

It's not fair.

So you sometimes have to pull a punch because these are private organizations.

Right in politics, I'm covering a taxpayer funded organization and.

They need you, right, they need you to get the message out like well, I don't know, like left.

So I would argue that that less on that, it's more of we at least have the Freedom of Information Act, right, we have things that we can use because it's taxpayer funded and they can't really, you know, we have that First Amendment right, and it is about the First Amendment is about government getting in the way.

A private organization can decide who they talk to any anytime they want.

And I remember we locally, we got a taste of this when the then Washington Redskins now Commanders, when Dan Schneider opened him.

He just barred the Washington Post from being able to cover the organization.

So the Washington Post could cover the controversy around Dan Snyder, but they couldn't tell you who was injured this week and who was practicing this week because they weren't allowed in.

And that was a disservice to the readers of the Washington Post.

So I always struggle with this issue in sports of just you know, there's no doubt you just identified there's like three or four guys that get all the handouts.

But those are handouts.

Let's not pretend they're anything.

Other than for sure one hundred percent.

That's a big part of it, right, And I mean, now we're not and it becomes you know, anonymous horses for reasons I'm not really fully sure why.

And so so for me it is kind of figuring out, Okay, I'm not going to be one of those guys, So what's the other lane?

And the other lane is sort of this more in depth reporting.

I mean, what you're saying is so true, and it's this is not me selling the book in this way, but like one of the three reasons I thought I could write the book I'm a New Yorker.

I don't cover the Lakers a lot, and there were issues with the Lakers at me, but I don't rely on them like the arena I go do.

Mostly I go to the Masive Square Garden.

That's the team I deal with.

With.

It's their own problems.

We could talk about the.

Nick separately, but if the Lakers, if the Lakers got annoyed in me, and they did, like, I'm not dependent on them for a credential to do my job, and I thought that was a value I could bring to the to the book specifically, because exactly what you're saying.

Yeah, no, one hundred percent.

And in some ways it's always been the case in any news organization that if you're going to do an investigative piece, don't don't actually let the Beat have the Beat reporters do it, because you're going to cut off your nose despite your face exactly, go get and go get somebody who who is it there all the time, right, who can go in and sort of in some ways it's a fresher set of eyes, like if you're with a team data day to day, weird stuff comes across as normal to you because you don't know the alternative versus you're coming from a farther away, so you can see the weird.

You have a better shot identifying the weird than the average beat writer of the Lakers.

For sure.

And like I say, you know, part of it is I've taken a few shots in this media tour, maybe at Lakers beat writers necessarily, But part of it is also that it's different jobs.

So if you are a Laker beat writers, what you were saying about the Washington Post, right, if Lebron's not talking to you, you're failing your job.

Like you are that your job is to tell get that access.

That's part of the job, and you get part of the dirty war.

But but that's literally your job is to get Lebron and tell fans what that is.

Right, So I I make fun of it sometimes, but I'm also sym that I can understand it too, and that's and that's and it's okay, right.

I think that that's the thing.

Like I look at it as saying, hey, all, there's all there's a lot of different flavors of journalism that we need.

You need your accountability, you need your access, you need your service.

Like we could sit here and go through it.

So you you went.

About this.

How many?

I'm guessing this is not the first iteration of a Lebron book you.

Pitched, No, I had a uh the first all I wanted to do we start is Lebron Big Three, the Miami Heat, the Big three Heat.

And actually for the reason my grandfather, my grandfather moved.

He was not a basketball fan, but he moved to of course when New York jew so what he'd do when he retired.

He moved down to a century village in Florida, right, and became.

A We've all had a grandparent in century village in South Florida, my great grandmother and grandfather where I think they were the founding residents there in the late seventies.

I love it right in the clubhouse at Alray.

Beach was our was our was our century village.

But so my mine was Deerfield.

So he became a later in his life, I think through me because he saw much I love sports.

He became a huge Heat fan.

Huge where he would he would watch, he would call me, he would watch first take, he would want he would get angry all the media guys who picked against the Heat.

This was when there was the big bat near the backlash.

He was just he was he.

I always compare him a little bit to a Jewish version of Miami.

People might remember Dan Lebtard and he had his father on TV.

Oh yeah, rappy hoppy, right, So it's a Jewish version of that.

So that Heat team had like a special place in my heart because I was talking about them a lot.

I had tried doing a book on the my order.

So the first Lebron idea I had and I always say, you know, I like books and I'm the journal of the Big but it's also a commercial endeavor.

Uh, so you need to have something I could sell, So Lebron is obviously that doesn't mean you have to be interested in the topic too, but it has to be the commercial aspect to it.

And so I pitched the Uh what I wanted to do was that I had to proposal on everything the Big three Heat and uh, it just didn't work.

Someone else was gonna do it, and I heard about it.

They ended up not doing I don't actually genuinely don't know what happened there, but I had to.

Uh, I had to pivot, and we ended up with Lakers.

You know, it's tough you know with sports books is you know, I sit there and like, my favorite sports books are a variety of different types.

Like October sixty four is just an Alzheimer for me, because it's a book that's not really about baseball, right, it's about the civil rights movement and sort of the beginning and the end of it, and then sort of the role sports played.

And it's just obviously Harbert Stamm is sort of the He's the north Star sports right, like, you know, nobody does it like him, so I'm not going to say there's that.

But then I love some oral histories.

There's a great one about the ABA.

Called Loose Balls Falls.

Yep, oh my god, it's it is one that I My fandom for that book only grows.

I mean, it was just like a terrific It's a reminder that there are certain recent histories are sometimes better told via oral history than trying having one writer's voice to try to capture the moment.

But the larger difficulty in sports books is getting out of a region, right or getting out of a metro area, which is why I mean I've I've pitched some sports and politics books and have struggled to get publishers to buy it because of this issue.

Lebron obviously is somebody that's bigger for the reason that I stated in our introduction, Lebron is a cultural icon, not just a basketball icon.

And then you merge it with the Lakers, also a cultural icon, and suddenly I now see where you have a commercial vehicle.

Yeah, I mean Lebron, Like listen, you could be it's not even any sports fan.

But even tho they're not sports fans.

If you say Lebron, people have opinions.

It's interesting because they they don't all necessarily like him, and that's an interesting thing that I find about him, Like would the obviously compare him to Jordan always and it seems to elicit a different emotional rest It's.

The strangest are are And I guess that's where I want to start.

Yeah, because I've I've I will confess I've started the book.

I've not finished the book, but it is it is a This feels like a Lebron book, not a Lakers book.

Yeah.

I think that's probably true.

Or the way I the way I've sort of thought of through is it's like on the so what I like to do one of the things I like to write about.

In the way I sort of approach my job, I think is in the way I summarize it is I like writing about.

I describe it the things that happen behind the scenes that we don't see that impact what happens on the court that we do see.

Right, And so for me, this is sort of a look at the I'll call it the merger really because it's more than a merger between these two iconic sporting institutions of Lebron and the Lakers and what that looks like together.

But Lebron is sort of the you know, everything goes through him and him and his agency and what that means.

And later I do a lot of his political stuff, which around the Bubble twenty twenty, around the Bubble, and a lot of stuff he did there, and then sort of his retreat from political life in recent years, which we've seen and I have found really interesting.

So yeah, I mean, that's I would agree with you on that.

You know, it's interesting this merger that I like that you described it as a merger between Lebron and the Lakers, because when I think about all the other superstars that the Lakers have acquired, right, Kareem was an acquisition, Shaq was an acquisition.

You could argue Kobe was an acquisition because it was a trade on on on Draft Night, but I don't know.

I put Kobe in magic.

We're sort of Lakers for life versus Kareem, Lebron, and Shaq, who were sort of the hired guns, right.

But in the case of Kareem and Shack, the Lakers, the Lakers made them bigger deals.

Lebron arguably was a bigger, bigger brand before going to the Lakers, and in some ways he's still a bigger brand than the Laker brand.

Is that Yeah, it's so It's so interesting.

I completely agree.

And one of the things I looked at is like, why did Lebron go to Lakers?

Right, And to this day you don't get a clear answer, And it.

Seems like an obvious answer, I'll just.

Move hit.

The business of Lebron needed to be in La So all of Lebron's post basketball life was going to be based out of out of southern California.

Even if it was going to be in Vegas, he was probably going to live in southern California.

So it seemed to me it was just him preparing for the next chapter, and the Lakers were just the most viable way exit strategy.

So the second part, there's why I think is interesting becuse that's I was going to say that, like it's almost like, Okay, I want to do this, and I'm so big, right, the brand of Lebron is so big that what team can what there's no I can't go play for ninety nine percent of teams.

It's basically Lakers or Knicks were basically it like those are the two that would work.

And he wanted to go out west because it just Nicks one because.

He's never been a New York guy.

No, for whatever reason, I have a I'll ask you about it later.

I have one theory as to why he picked the Heat over the Knicks back in the decision.

Okay, I want to get to that with you, but go keep going.

Yeah, So it's and it's so I agree with you.

The post basketball stuff.

What's interesting.

It's been sort of a mix of what that looks like and maybe that's part of it.

So at first we thought it was gonna be movies and he did space Jam, but then that sort of disappeared a little bit, and they have his his his longtime business manager friend Maverick Carter sort of had this spring Hill Entertainment which maybe people have heard of, and the reporting on that is.

That's basically it's I don't want to say a failure, but it's not.

It's not doing great financially.

So you had that, you know.

He there's about his wife, like the weather, and he wanted his kids to be out there, and just he was done with Cleveland.

And again we're talking about that post business stuff, the post playing career in his businesses.

Ownership is definitely something he's interested in.

I cover that a lot, and and he feels like las big.

I mean, it feels like it's an inevitable ownership group that that he gets to lead, right for sure.

And he's uh the things to cover, like he's made trips to Saudi Arabia, which most people think I can't.

I don't know, he hasn't said, but most people in these circles believe those are not coincidental.

Right, He's invested in like a sell boating thing out there.

I don't know, but he did some minister of culture, one of the princess which I whose name I'm not gonna even pretend to remember, but one of the princes hosted an Instagram picture of Lebron there Maverick Carter, So most people kind of joined a connection that like money and face of the ownership, right, that's kind of where we're gonna end up with the uh with that stuff.

But he is so big, that's the point.

Like the Lakers, it almost feels like the only team that could absorb him in that and not be swallowed by him.

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Quents dot com slash chuck use that code well, But I could argue I say this as somebody who like, you know, I'm I'm even though I'm in my mid fifties, I was probably the first generation of NBA fans that were fans of a player, not a team.

Yeah, I grew up in Miami in the seventies and eighties.

We didn't get the heat until I was literally graduating high school.

That's when we got the heat.

You know.

Ronnie Cyclee he was the big first star that that we had.

And so I was a magic guy, you know.

And I had a friend who was a bird guy, right, and I had another friend who became it was the Jordan guy, right, and we you know, that's how we rooted for basketball in the seventies and eighties, and and it's in some ways it's still what basketball is today.

Right, it's more player And then Team German and the Lakers were one of the Lakers and the Celtics Roys the two franchises that most of the time were bigger than their players, right, or at least were the same size as their players see Magic Johnson.

The Lakers have been good for Lebron, but it's Lebron been good for the Lakers.

So it's it's so interesting.

So the short answer is yes.

So this is one of the So the short answers yes, because you have to remember the dark period they were in before they got in, right, So this is people remember.

So anyone who's watched the HBO show Winning Time, which is based on another great Lakers book.

Show called Showtime, and HBO couldn't couldn't green light a TV show called Showtime now.

Correct, which is hilarious exactly.

The book was Showtime by Jeff Prowlman, who's like the best sports author going right now, Hey football.

For a buck.

I had him on this podcast talking Trump and yeah.

I'm sure, so he's like the best at this.

So that book gets on the magic Kareem Lakers, this show gets made to bring it up.

So that's Jerry Buss, right.

Jerry Buss is people know him, his iconic owner, just larger than life figure.

All that builds the Lakers into the thing that.

We all know they are he dies, leaves leaves the.

Children, leaves the Lakers to a trust of six children, and when I you know, the term it's like succession but is a cliche, but it really is that, like this is really sports succession, where like Jerry Buss is I guess Brian Cox's character, except he goes to the payboy mansion a little more and he had a little less money.

I mean, the dirty little secret about the Lakers and the Bus family is how basically, and that's what Winning Time did a good job of explaining.

Bus was sort of like the Donald Trump of his era.

He always used other people's money, correct to pretend he was wealthy, like he didn't really have well correct.

And so he leaves the team and he's got his children fighting over it and they're not it's not a good situation.

He basically leaves it where he leaves a trust in a way where Jeannie the daughter is in charge of the business side, jim the son is in charge of basketball, Genie's actually in charge.

Of it all.

It's sing you mean the former presidential candidate Jimmy Buss.

That's, by the.

Way, the succession that was when really it went to succession because he is was a connor whatever.

Yes, literally, I mean, I mean, I I'll never forget getting that press release like May of last year.

You know, you're like, wait, what, he's a filed exactly exactly.

Oh wait, though, I'm gonna I'm gonna confirm.

Sorry, it was Johnny Buss.

Johnny Bus, Johnny Buss.

Sorry, Johnny, this is the third, right, Jimmy, there's Jeanie and there's Johnny.

There's Jimmy, Jeannie, Johnny, Janney, Joey, Jesse.

Now I remember if you can get all those kidding, it's all jays.

Yeah, among the ones we know, all the same mom or no, no, no, that's the okay, the original four or the four older ones with one mom, two younger ones with a second mom.

One came out later with the third mom.

I don't know what else is that.

So there's the there's another TV show that's out there that's also about the kind of about Genie Buss.

Yes, that is yeah, nobody is watching that show.

Yeah, and that they did do the storyline of Hey, look, one of the concessions guys said out of wedlock brother of yours, Genie.

I have to tell you, nobody has watched that show with a more critical eye than me because some of it, so much of it is true that I'm.

Watching it and being like, oh my god, who came up with this idea?

Wait?

Do I have to look into this?

Is this something real?

Because there's enough that is true there that I'm thinking like, Okay, maybe she's an executive producer.

I thought Leani.

I was just gonna say, Jenny Buss is an EP on it, right.

Yeah, she's execut producer.

So that's what I was, literally like, I was taking notes on that show.

I'm not even I'm not even like nobody else watched a show like it's passive.

It was decent.

It's a passive entertainment show, right.

Right, the woman from Almost famousson, Yeah, thank you.

But I'm watching it like you know, people watch like The Wire and like college courses.

You know, I'm just taking notes on it.

You can find exactly So they said, those kids and it's a disaster.

I'll go the full quick version.

It's a Genie has to fire her brother.

Her brothers then try to take the team from her in a boardroom coup that doesn't work.

She keeps the team and this is and.

Then they give Kolby this ridiculous contract, sort of a golden parachute of a contract, end his career and sort of bring back to your question, like what mattered more they needed Lebron was this lifeline sort of this we are in this dark period and Lebron comes and it's like, no, the Lakers are back, eye Genie Buss and like my father, I can get stars too.

We are back.

So that's where he had an immense impact on them and her specifically.

Well, that's interesting that you say that, because when you really look at it, if you take away the bubble title, Yeah, the Lakers they've been I guess was it two years ago they were a three seed or a two seed or was it last year that three seed they made?

Last year of the three seed they made the conference finals.

Kind of like you know back in they backed in a couple of years ago.

Right, but they've really not been a factor, right, They just you can feel that they're not a factor.

They just don't have enough depth.

And it goes to, frankly, just a total mismanagement of their front office, right, mortgaging so many of their draft picks where they were I mean, they had some draft picks.

They just sort of peed them away, right, you know, yeah, you look, you know, whether it's Lonzo ball or whatever.

Correct, the kind of as I've been doing.

This is the way I describe it is like you can't say they want a title, so you can't say it was a failure.

So the way I say it is, it was the Lebron ten year in LA was a success.

Butt.

And the butt is if I told you when he got there in twenty eighteen that you would get eight years.

And I think this is like I joke, it's going to be a trivia question people get wrong in twenty years.

This is Lebron's longest consecutive stretch with one team.

It's the Laker, this current Lakers stretch.

Right, that's the team he spent the most consecutive years with.

Right, So you told you you're gonna get yeah.

Go ahead, No, no, No.

That's interesting because it then brings up the question of what logo does he go in the Hall of Fame with?

Right, It's fascinating and the idea of being so he's there eight years and he's been mostly healthy until now, basically mostly healthy and not just one title.

It was in a bubble one finals run like just one finals appearance.

And the fact that makes it even more interesting is the fact that the title and the main high point happened in a literal bubble with no parade, and they then have this sort of robbed fans of his ability to emotionally connect to these moments, these things that fandom is built on.

And I just think it's going to make his legacy in LA really interesting and honestly diminish.

It when we look back on it in twenty years and going to be like, wait, what happened there?

What was this?

It's a strange.

No, it's always going to be the third Yeah, it's never going to be the first or second part of Lebron's career.

It's always going to feel like the coda.

It's always going to be the coda.

No, I agree, I agree, but just strange.

It's strength to that point.

It's strange that like that is the long like I said, that longest stretch, right, that that is not a three year period but an eight year or maybe nine we'll.

See what happens stretch.

That's the part that makes it strange.

Let me ask this, why do you think Lebron wasn't a ring chaser.

You know, there's always been this thought, is he a ring chaser or not.

He's clearly not because if he wanted a ring chase, you and I you tell me, But I think if he wanted a ring chase, the Warriors would have found a way to make room for him.

They called, out of my mind that they called it, right, they asked, and he said, And it's really interesting.

It shows you where his relationship was with the Lakers in twenty twenty four.

He was in one of his passive aggressive tweet streaks or whatever when he does.

And so they called.

They figured, okay, we'll call Geni Bus And they called, and Genie Buss in a really interesting answer and she gets censored about this, but she didn't say no.

She said, call Rich Paul Lebron's agent, call him and find out, which is not a no right for like for her, that's a big okay, Like, I don't know if call him And he said no.

So he made that.

Yeah, he's made a choice.

He's made a choice to sort of keep his roots in La Maybe goes back to what we were talking about before.

For whatever reason, whether it's a family thing, whether it just deciding he doesn't want to play for a random team, you know, I just yeah, he hasn't done it.

He hasn't done it.

I don't know if he's still sensitive about you know, the Miami Super Team winking up and he doesn't want that associated more than like, look I do that.

I don't know, but I agree with you.

Well, let me go back to Miami because this one is a little more personal to me.

You have the Bill Simmons version of events.

Okay, right, and look, I don't know if you listen to him, yes, yeah, of course, so you well, I mean, then you know where that he believes it was a peeing contest between pat Riley and Lebron James.

And there was no way Lebron James was never he was never going to stay somewhere where he wasn't the alpha, and pat Riley was never going to keep somebody and play second fiddle to them.

Is that the reason why that that relationship ended?

I think partly, yeah, I would say the part I would Riley did try like the and this is but Riley did try to keep him right, and part of it is that he was offended the way Lebron treated him in the pitch meeting, like the the story about I forget maybe Riley went up to Vegas to pitch them and Lebron some of the guys like a soccer game on the background, and Riley just felt, you know, offended because this is and he's right, he's pat Riley and thought he deserved a little more respect.

The answer to that is probably what you're saying is probably like that was the build up to that, where sort of this contest about who actually gets to run things, who's in charge, who gets to do it, whose way.

I always compare the heat to like Lebron's graduate school almost right where yeah, Cleveland.

I'd heard him call it college before, right.

Okay, so yeah, it's just like he learned how to win.

Yeah, yeah, he learned how to win and how to he needed it, and then he sort of took the things he got there and took them out into the world with him into Cleveland.

Then, I mean the reason he left and this is but the reason he left he wanted to fix the Cleveland narrative, right, they wanted to fix the decision narrative.

They want to go back win a title in Cleveland, Like that was I mean the fact that they went back to tell you about him.

What does that tell you about Lebron?

What do you what do you take away?

Not everybody would feel that because he's never really going to live there again, right, his kids may never live there.

You know, I have an attachment to Miami that my son has no attachment to, right because he's never I don't think his kids really have an attachment to Acron in Cleveland.

But it meant something to him to do that, for sure.

What does that tell you about him?

That maybe we we we we overlook sometimes in our in our sort of cheap descriptions of these ubers.

I mean, I mean one, it's you care people think, which I actually think is not a you know, guess someone as a negative.

Like I always I always laugh, you know, in my job, I always laugh when people say, like when the athletes sad will pay attention?

You all do, and it's fine, like we all do.

It's the most human thing, Like what are you kidding?

And so it's caring right care of people think that's a big thing.

I think that like is it more about legacy and caring what people think as opposed to the hometown thing.

I actually think a bit of it, but it's also intertwined, and I think at that point it's probably hard for to separate those two.

And obviously bringing the title, I mean that was looked Cleveland.

You know, they haven't won an NFL championship since the fifties.

They haven't won a baseball championship since the forties.

It was a b fd on.

Hundred, like the way the way I kind of said, he went back to a team it mattered so much to him, and because he recognized how much it had mattered to Cleveland, he went back and was willing to take checks and play for Dan Gilbert.

I remember, Dan Gilbert's the owner of people don't know he's the owner of the Cavaliers.

After Lebron goes to Miami, he writes, and I might even use the coded like it might be.

No, it was a racist letter.

It was a racist letter saying basical, how dare Lebron leave?

It was terrible.

It was terror right, just like it was.

I forget who used but.

A plantation like letter was a phrase thrown around a lot by people who by like you know, historians and people who all throw that language around lightly.

And Lebron was willing and he's still in the cast Lebron went back and it's not like it's not like he it wasn't that because I always forgiven it because that was so important to him, and it was so and he thought it mad it would matter so much to the city.

Whether that's for an ego for the city, probably mix them both right, that he was willing to go back and say, you know what, I'm gonna eat it this, I want to do this.

Of the three franchises, which one would build a statue to them?

Well, so, I joke, the Lakers, I think are going they just do that, right, even though it's weird and La has.

Weird if the Lakers do it personally because it's not he's the only one one.

Sorry, But wouldn't it be weird if they didn't?

That's the thing think about like that, Like would it be weird if they didn't do it?

Because you have Lebron again, a top five, if not better player all time eight.

Years on your team.

It's almost like a statement I agree with you, but it's almost like a statement if you don't do it.

All right, the Washington Wizards don't have a statue of Michael Jordan, but.

That was two years, right that we didn't own it, so it's different, but about two years it's not the eight like, that's the thing.

I mean, the LA relationship again, the LA's relationship to Lebron is so interesting.

It is the one place he went there and he was not welcomed, like it was not cheering.

There was there were murals of him that were de face with pictures of Kobe.

A lot of this goes back to the Kobe Lebron rivalry.

A little that was a little between them, but I'm in a more macro sens was between sort of fan their respective fandoms, and so.

Going in I never thought of it as much of our because basically Kobe, you know, his last championship is right, but the year before the decision.

Right yeah, And they and it never went up each other.

They never faced each other in the finals, which is too bad.

But they were pitted against each other and by Nike and by marketing machines and media, and it became a thing where Kobe's fans.

Which are Lakers fans, who are I mean the Lakers Kobe fans.

Fans are not all Lakers.

The thing I've learned about l a and I have a my best friend lives out there and he will he vouches for this too, which is not all.

Not all all Laker fans are Kobe fans, but not all Kobe fans.

Are Kobe's ahead in the hierarchy.

Yes, Kobe is higher up in the hierarchy.

And this is double.

This was true before he died, but it cemented after he died.

Yes, And it's fascinating because then you think about it, and then you think about Kobe and Lebron and they are polar opposite in so many ways in terms of their approach on the court, where like Kobe, it's like I shoot over four guys, Lebron passes the open guy.

Lebron's you know my all kinds of a good teammate, Night's guy.

Kobe was a bit of a bleepole, right, Kobe want to be friends like Kobe would to link up with our players on their teams.

Lebron obviously does.

And it sort of becomes like, that's the quote Mamba mentality, and his fans then go to war for that quote Mama mentality being correct as opposed to Lebron's approach, and then all of a sudden this guy you've been arguing arguing against is dropped into your city and it just creates these weird mix of emotions.

Well, you know, it's interesting, this this the persona of Lebron.

You know, I think about I.

I I'm a Lebron defender generally.

Yeah, meaning I look at a kid at fifteen who's on the cover of Sports Illustrated, who's told he's going to be the next greatest basketball player of all time, that this guy's the heir apparent of Michael Jordan.

And it's true.

He lives up to an absurd set of expectations that were set for him.

And oh, by the way, there's no major scandal around Lebron's life.

You've never you know, we can, I'm sure you there's plenty of rumors that you've had to deal with that you know that people would say, hey, did you know this about him?

There's rumors about every celebrity.

Ninety percent of them are not true or so exaggerated they're more not true than true.

But you know, I'm one of those, you know, you sort of crowdsource somebody's life.

If he was a bad dude.

After twenty five years, we'd have a parade of people telling us how bad of a duty he was.

Right, he's clearly a good guy.

He's a pretty you know, he's he's a good family man.

He's very protective of his mother.

I think that's why he never was going to go to New York.

He didn't trust the New York tabloids to leave his mother alone.

I've always believed that that's Miami.

Is this safe space.

Yep for that.

We Miami has never had a New York post culture is what I'll call it.

Right, there's no Page six.

Celebrities are allowed to live in Miami and people malone.

It's very similar to La.

There's just not as many celebrities in Miami as or is in LA.

But it's that same thing.

Oh, everybody leaves them alone, you know, nobody.

You know, we're all we're all hiding from something here in Miami.

That's why we're here, right, That's that's okay.

And yet he seems polarizing, Like I understand why Kobe's polarizing, But why the hell did Lebron?

How did it hell did Lebron end up polarizing?

It's it's it's it's not a good it's the decision, the original decision, that's what does it And it's so strange.

I mean, this is a harsh way to put it, but it can take the Kobe comparison more.

It's said, people seem to have less of a problem getting over a sexual assault allegation and they do a pr uh thing free agent thing, which I don't buy this, but like I could spin it that worst thing he ever did was do an awkward free agent thing that raised money for charity.

Like that's the worst thing he did, right.

Right, And again, I know the charity thing is a bit of a cop out.

I don't know full but like, but on its surface, that's what it.

That's what it is.

And and yet and I think he's never recovered from that, and it's I mean, it kind of goes through your intro the second about sports and what people feel like they're entitled to as fans and what we expect, how we expect athletes to.

Serve us, and it taps into all these greater things.

You know, It's interesting the decision.

I would argue that was the last moment where a majority of fans took the side of franchises over players, because ever since then, fans are more pro player than franchise.

I mean, he sort of that and that's sort of like that's part of the part of his legacy.

Ran Usher, you need this so called player powerment that right.

Right, he brought it in.

He made a hell of a lot of money for Kevin Durant.

Right, he blazed a trail for Kevin Durant.

Sure, he blazed a trail for Chris Paul and some of these other guys that made money ended up being able to sort of demand what they want or a Kyrie Irving, right, James Harden.

We can go on and on.

None of those guys are able to do with get what they got if Lebron hadn't done what he did right and he changed so changed the game.

And yet this pioneer is not even held up in high esteem I think among NBA players.

I agree.

It's strange, Like obviously all respect his, no one, there's no everyone respects the greatness and the longevity, which is part of it, and the fact that he's forty or forty one, and like this is the first time we're seeing a little slip up.

It's insane he.

Treats I mean, look, I also think he shows, you know, to be great, you have to work at it.

Yeah, and you have to make a choice.

You can't be a you can't live the lifestyle.

Look, Michael Jordan could live a high roller lifestyle and be great at basketball Lebron.

But guess what, Michael was still only great for a shorter period of time.

He was done by high thirty.

He was done.

He was done.

Lebron trained his body and mind to be able to essentially last like Tom Brady.

And you know it's funny, is like Brady.

You know, Brady's also not beloved outside of New England.

He's respected, he's acknowledged.

But there's this weird versus a Peyton Manning.

Who's the more lovable guy?

Right?

All love Peyton Manning.

I want Peyton Manning to sponsor this.

Brady was, you know, but Brady was so he seemed to be so obsessed with football you didn't care about the outside world.

I think Lebron's mostly the same way.

The Brady is the guy I always compare him to, right, just because there is no take tennis out of it, but the four major American sports, like, there's no comp to what these guys do to be this great, that great at.

That age, it's unheard of.

It's unheard of, and like the way one of the things I dolivings, I loved this kind of like talk to people about how Lebron has got him like this and the way has explained to me.

You know that he's mapping out every minute.

It shows you the discipline that every hour of every day's mapped down.

So they'll be filming space Jam and then it's like two twenty and his trainer potnay joke, he pops out a trap door for like his two twenty seven in Kinwa, right, or things like that, just knowing every hour.

Michael Beasley told me his stories Lebron's longtime friends, saying it's like a bleeping NASCAR pit stop around them half the time.

Just these guys are always around there, and yeah, it's something about it.

But I agree.

So the respects there, But he's not the loved the same way I think Kobe's probably again it's a Jordan thing, a Kobe thing.

Like these are guys who you hear people talk about people meaning fans, media, but also players talk.

About in a different way than Lebron, And it's fascinating.

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This is this Lebron's last year.

I do I know, I mean, you know this is it'd obviously be really good for your book.

If it was, he would try to hitting that moving target.

My answers, I don't know.

I genuinely I don't think he knows.

That's my read on it is.

I don't think.

I think he's sort of he's a free agent now they left.

He says, sorry, he's on expiring contract.

He has for the first time in his career he is on expireing deal.

I think he's It seems to be he's wreckon reckoning with no longer being the power player that he once was and no longer being in total control.

He also like there's a lot of things he wants to a lot of boxes he wants to check.

Like most assume he's gonna want a farewell tour.

He also has made clear talk about the player empowerment stuff.

So he doesn't have a farewell tour now, correct, So let's make good have announced it this year?

Correct?

That makes me think where it's going to get at least one more year.

He doesn't take CAF of Cleveland right, It does right because it comes back to so where is it going to be.

It's like, if you're doing a farewell tour, it's gonna be a Lake Lakers or Calves.

That's it.

Anyone else, that's it.

Yeah, it doesn't even make sense for Miami anymore.

Right, you can't make a Miami case.

Yeah.

No, And and and he doesn't take pay cuts.

That's the part he's gonna have to be interesting.

It's going to be interesting.

So since Miami, he joined Miami, he took a pay cut to join them, And since then we talked about the player empowerment.

He's been very big on like, I don't take pay cuts.

We take the max deal.

And I don't think it's for like selfish reasons.

I think it's more of representing the player for us and sort of being you know, union guy for lack of a better term.

And if you're not willing to take a pay cut, your options are limited right where.

You know, if I was advising him, I might say, no, one's going to call you a scab at the age of forty one.

You take ten million dollars instead of thirty, right, Like that's okay, go where he wants.

But I don't know what he wants.

Well, I mean Cleveland is a fascinating destination right now because he might be able to win a title too in this farewell year, if he chose to do that next year.

I mean, this is a team that is it is, it is in it's the best version of the Cleveland Cavaliers without a guy named Lebron James on it as it is for sure.

I thought he should have gone there like he because he's kind of put out again some passive aggressive statements this year, and I remember being like talking to some people in NBA and just be like, do what you want, Like, do you want to go home go to Cleveland then it's fine, or you want to stay do what he wants?

I agree, well, And as a player, you know the beauty of Lebron And just to me is why you got to give it to him as a as a teammate, is that he he'd understands, he knows how to play a role if that's the best way to win a game.

Yep.

I mean he could be an important role player and oddly that Cleveland could use for sure.

And the part I joke is like we talked about it, but you know he's not top five player anymore.

Last year he was second team o MBA, which means he was top twenty, top ten.

Still, like, it's still incredible.

If he wanted, he won't do it.

We had, you know, most old guys you get to the point where they're kind of the bench guy playing fifteen minutes a game.

Like he could do that for seven more years if he wanted to.

He's so good and so smart and talk about the role player stuff, So I mean anything would take him for next year for sure.

Well, look, the other issue here has to be Brownie yep right, and and and the role of and then his middle son who some argue who's a little bit taller than his brother.

Right, correct.

So my understanding is Bryce was Bryce is the other one.

He was once a better prospect.

It seems to be unclear now Bronnie's condes is why.

So I always thought, you know, and as you're writing it, you're like, oh, that's what I want.

But I always thought this would be the last year because Bronnie's he's no, his contract is no longer guaranteed after this year.

So that's part of the equation which I find really interesting.

And so we not talked about much.

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if another team would take Bronnie if the the reason Lebron was able to force that through last time is because he was still good enough to force that through.

You know at this point, at the point is at the case I don't know, well, is.

It would any of us?

Would any other team have drafted Bronnie Smith?

No?

No, I mean I do think a team would have drafted Bronnie James.

I do actually believe that another team would have because I think that was always another rumor.

Hey, does a team who wants Lebron and the for for two for like sort of a two year farewell tour, do they draft Brownie as a way to bait him?

Right too, and clearly and clutch for Bron's agency was worried about that because they they they they forced Bronni, they would basically turn other teams away from himself.

Another told them don't draft because he was ended up drafting the second round.

They told other teams do not draft.

They said, you know some team that heard stories about teams on asking his agent Rich Paul, would Bronnie played the G League and the answer was, he ain't know if it works with the NBA schedule, which is not what they were really implying.

Right, That wasn't the reason the.

Question was asked that or they have draft telling teams if you draft him, he's going to Australia like they really they were forcing it through to make sure that he would end up.

With the Lakers.

What does Lebron want out of this for his sons?

If I get if I get critical at all, and I'm always I don't like to be I don't like my parenting to be back seat driven, so I don't.

I'm hesitant to backseat drive another parent.

But man, i'd like to think I wouldn't put that much pressure on my kids, and he's put some He's put some serious pressure on brown I feel nothing but empathy for Brownie, and I know that that seems odd, but I do no.

You know, it's so interesting, So I agree with you.

So that Lebron Brownie think is really interesting because he's said he's been in locker rooms saying things out loud when he knows reporters are around, like, oh, Bronnie could play, he's better than half these guys in the NBA, or tweeting out about my drafts being bad.

All these things where I would say, as a parent, too, like that seems awful, that seems bad.

And then and yet clearly they've done something right because Bronnie.

By all accounts, is a really he's.

I mean not by he's well liked, he's respectful, he works hard.

Everyone loves him actually really and he's just like his father, pretty high basketball like you.

He may not have the abilities, but he knows what he should be.

Doing, correct, So everyone loves Brownie.

So the fact, whenever I find myself saying that seems like awful parenting, right, Whenever I find myself saying.

That, fine, I sit there too.

Yeah, right, And I.

Kind of count the saying, you know what they raised in basically on the celebrity spotlight, they raised a kid and it seemed to have worked out.

So I don't know if that's luck or they knew what they were doing.

So that's kind of how I defer.

But it's funny you say that because I've had these same conversations with people and with myself, you know, internal dialogues about this stuff.

And I guess that that's that's going to be a factor.

What what do we think his middle son is at Arizona that he arizonated into.

So are they Is he going to play this year?

I it was that game was on last night and I forgot that there was a James on there.

I should have checked it out.

It would have been good, good, good prep for this.

But is he gonna play?

They don't, They don't.

They don't know from Bryce's perspective, and Lebron Lebron and Media Day was asked, you know you're gonna wait for him?

And I forget exact Well it was basically no, you know, I'm not waiting for him.

You know we're not going to get to that point.

So there's a world where Luca and Lebron could be a fascinating version sort of a twenty first century version of Kareem and Magic, sort of one guy at the in the sunset of his career, one guy getting ready for his peak powers.

But why do I get the sense that there's just no chemistry between these two?

So the funny part is, well, they haven't played a lot together.

That's the short answer.

Lebron loves Luca.

Like Luca is one of these guys.

First of all, all NBA players respect him.

He's sort of Lebron like in terms of his you know, the chess master moving pieces around years ago.

Lebron hadn't played defense.

Lebron plays for sure.

For sure, but so years ago, well, lebronch was going to build out or was building out his own Jordan like Lebron line for Nike, and Luca was one of the guys he targeted and that was way before.

So like, Luca's always been a guy he likes, and he talks to people around Lebron now and they say, now Lebron loves Luca, the Lakers he might feel differently about, right, So like the la I think anything you're seeing is if you see a passive aggressive or maybe see a clip of Lebron watching a game and maybe not being mister raw ra guy.

I think that's more about Lakers organizational and the fact that they haven't given him that they didn't offer from a contract extension last summer, as opposed to any issues with the Encourt guys.

But in fairness to the Lakers, my god, what I mean they can't keep I would argue, I mean, I think, and this is the real question is when you ask basketball people, has keeping Lebron around?

Actually you know, certainly pre trade of Luca.

Look, the Luca trade falls into their lap, which is you know why, there's why why our friend mister Simmons wants to have a conspiracy theory about somehow this helps the It is amazing how often the Celtics and Lakers end up with of course, oh boy, just when they need a player to it.

Of course their legacy going.

They find it right, But it it doesn't.

It doesn't seem as if that keeping Lebron has actually been good for the Lakers for the rest of this decade.

This isn't the right way to prepare for a post Lebron Lakers.

No, I agree with you.

I don't think they're wrong.

And the most the interesting part is they were doing this.

They were moving on before Luca.

So if you look back, if you're you know, the Lakers hired JJ Red to be the head coach before last year.

There's always been a question that was not Lebron's first choice?

Correct it was?

It was.

It wasn't that Lebron was out of it.

It wasn't necessarily his first choice.

Like he They floated that they had floated they want some other guys, and everyone assumed because Lebron and Jji Redick were hosting a podcast together, because not really, since it's twenty twenty five, why wouldn't that be the case.

Of course, that's what.

By the way, Rich Paul apparently is going to have a a a podcast with Simmons right and in that world.

And if you want to, if anyone who wants to do a fun google now that you know Rich Paul's, you know, going to be working with Bill Simmons, look up what Rich Paul said about Bill Simmons in an interview with Isaac Channer in The New Yorker, and that'll be a fun nun.

Tool to Simmons gredit.

He kind of alluded to it when he in his podcast earlier this week.

What he said, he goes, Yeah, when we had the first meeting, it wasn't clear whether there's this question.

There's Rich like Bill, there's Bill like Rich.

Get ready yeah soon.

I'll say this about Rich Paul's this is separate.

I like Rich Paul.

I find like he is a professional's wrong word, he just gets it.

He's not sensitive like he can he can.

He's okay if you criticize him, and then you can talk about it.

Talking out and he's cool with it.

You know, sometimes people in the sports world are uber sensitive about things, and he is not one of them.

But we were saying to the JJ Redick, the Lakers hire JJ red to be their head coach.

And you listen to that press conference, it's hilarious because they're talking like they're the Oklaho City Thunder.

They're talking about it's a new world.

We were into player Development's talk about they're going to make a player development app, which I don't know whatever happened to that.

You know, there's new salary cap structures.

We don't do superstars anymore.

Luca then falls to the lap and they change everything.

But they were moving on from Lebron before last year.

Let's do two more items here before before I let you go.

One is Magic Johnson's relationship with the Lakers.

Is it?

Is there one anymore?

Or you know, after the debacle of his role has sort of head of basketball operations and now that he's you know, I see him in most Commanders games now hanging out with as a part owner of that team.

He's a part owner of that.

He was all over the Dodgers like of course, it seems like he always knew where the camera was.

There's a camera, there's a camera, there's Magic finding his way into it.

Right.

What's the relationship between Magic Lebron and Magic and the Lakers?

Okay, so the most interesting part is that the Lakers just sold recently to Mark Walter, who owns the Dodgers.

So Magic Johnson, I guess is it's it's actually interesting question because people don't know, and people are around the NBA are really curious.

So Magic it ended.

The background is him and Genie Boss were basically like brother and sister, so close.

She brings him in for a year to run or two years he's there and it ends, like you said, horribly, just a flame out.

It's embarrassing to her, embarrassing to the franchise.

And then he goes on TV and he accuses Rob Polinka, a general manager who's still the general manager, of backstabbing him.

He says that that's not even He's not like sources say.

He's saying that the Steph N Smith that rap Polinka backstabby on first take.

Right, So Rop Polink is still there, he's still the general manager, right, He's still there.

Lebron was not thrilled with how the Magic stuff, and then Lebron also they him and his group were really accommodating.

Maybe that's the wrong word, like magic after they saw Lebron was very big.

I mean, wasn't Magic credited with recruiting Lebron and so this is to be credited.

This is what I say.

They're accommodating.

They were very accommodating to Magic.

Telling the setting him there going on Jimmy Kimblell talking about how he's outside Lebron's house at midnight or whatever, and that was, as someone explained to me, I think I put this in the book, like Lebron was going there whether Magic was there or not.

But they were okay to let Magic do that.

So Matt, they do that.

And then Magic, besides being bad at the job, just to leave in this ridiculous way of announcing in a press conference without telling anyone he's leaving and just basically walking out the door.

It's embarrassing.

So I don't think the relationship between him and Lebron is I think everyone respects Magic and what he was.

I wouldn't say that's particularly close the him and Genie Bus.

Their relationship is still there, but it's not what it once was, but again repeating what it looks like when Magic's partner now buys the buys the Lakers and what that means.

It's I can tell you people asking me that question and I don't know.

Well, are the buses keeping a piece of the team.

So the genie is fifteen percent, which is the minimum amount required to still be officially the governor.

And she's the governor, he's the governor of the rep.

Yeah.

Correct, that could always change.

And we've seen other example and like where we told, you know, Mark Cuban sold the team and said he was going to be running in It wasn't the case.

This seems to be more locked in than that.

But it could change any minute.

Politics, right, and Lebron has It's funny, It's like, I actually don't think he's weighed in that often in politics compared to I could argue, compared to even Shack at Magic, Shack at Magic show up on events, they do stuff.

When they did stuff for Obama, you know, Lebron, it was always more the Obama people wanted more Lebron, and Lebron was you know, felt like Michael Jordan in nineteen ninety when he refused to endorse Harvey Gant in the Jesse Helm Senate race in North Carolina.

He never actually said the quote, well Republicans by but you know, it's always been the line, no shocker, right, But the legend of that quote sits out there, and I always got a sense that Lebron at least there was always a piece of him that heard that, and he would he certainly made you know, he did not want to seem like he was unsupportive, particularly of the concerns of African Americans.

So he never wanted to be seen is not supportive there.

But he never I never, I've never thought of him as as active in politics as the reputation that is out there in the right in particular is that he is.

I think that's a great way to put it.

And I think the way you put I think the real what you just said, the ending part there, right, how he gets framed by the right and sort of in today's world where you just you know you're good or bad, everything's by it doesn't matter.

It's sort of what the different we we live in these different ecosystems, and the right has decided he politicizes everything, and you're like, really, because correct he really doesn't.

When you when you look, I mean, you know, he does not.

He does not get actively involved.

He doesn't write big checks, he doesn't show up in TV ads.

Magic Johnson does all of those things right and always has.

Yeah, no Lebron, I mean even the first ones he did.

It's interesting.

So he never did anything until Obama two thousand and eight.

I think it was j Jay Z was at a thing that basically brought Lebron in, brought Lebron with right, it was correct, correct, you'll member the Trayvon Martin.

He had a statement with the heat.

But the interesting it was it wasn't him, it was the whole, all the teammates, the whole entire team.

He's with the group, hooded sweatshirt on.

And then there was another I'm gonna forget it might been Eric Garner.

I don't know.

Maybe in New York.

I can't breathe, and he wasn't sure if he was going to do a T shirt.

He was sort of in and out in twenty twenty two.

Things.

What twenty sixteen with Trump seemed to ignite him a little bit.

I mean is the famous you bum tweet, which is pretty funny because.

Trump went after him, and of correct, you know, Lebron it's funny.

He is just like us in that he lets social media get under his skin everyone.

So, for sure, one hundred percent he's very much in on social media.

And then the most involved he got was twenty twenty in the bubble, which again I mean that's we'll look back in that fifty years from now and just a million.

Everybody did this was George Floyd.

This was sort of right.

It's like people getting involved in the civil rights movement in the sixties.

It just wasntrect like everybody was getting involved on and it wasn't specific.

I mean again, they were very specific what they did.

Him and his guy.

He had this guy, Adam Mendelssohn, who's uh, who's Donold Schwarzenegger's communications Guy's his communications guy.

And well Lebrons group are really good at They're great at finding experts what they want to do, and that we find the experts to execute it.

So they get all these people from the political field.

I'm gonna forget there.

You would if I told you the names, you would know all them.

No, But I knew about Mendelssohn and a few others.

No, he's he's careful.

He doesn't do stuff, but whether it's business or politics or culture, he does seem to be calculating and careful.

And they're right.

It wasn't about there was not voting.

It was there very specific.

It wasn't about a specific candidate.

It wasn't about vote for Joe Biden.

It was let's mobilize and let's vote and make sure we can vote.

That's an American right.

There's nothing political, which whatever, but there's nothing political about getting out to vote.

And that was what the how they pushed it.

So I and and since then, honestly, it's like you said, he might have endorsed.

He might have endorsed Biden his last I don't remember what.

He did, and I'm sure he endorsed Commel.

I'm not saying he didn't.

I mean, my goodness.

The NBA, you know, I always say this.

You know, the NFL is the truly the only equally divided fan base.

It really looks like America.

It is, Yes, it is fifty to fifty.

NBA leans left, golf lean's right, Baseball leans right, Hockey leans right, like you know, you know, show me your fan base and I'll show you which way they lean exactly, you know, and you know, so there certainly is an assumption of Lebron's politics, but I've always thought he was put it this way.

He wasn't nearly as front facing as Kareem was in his heyday.

No, not even close, not even close.

And the only thing is, I would say, so there was one point around twenty twenty where it seemed like he was thinking he wanted to maybe position himself as that get that where he has like he's walking out with Malcolm X books and again, but this is twenty twenty, and like he's I mean, twenty twenty, he was just we could throw it out the window in terms of what people were doing and how people are approaching things.

But he did seem to sort of be sort of be dabbling in some of that stuff.

I think he rightfully.

I don't think that's his specialty, and I think he's been smart to sort of pull back on that a little bit.

So that's the only thing I would say.

But the other part is the Laura Ingram shut up and dribble right now.

Was the other thing, which was again we talk about coded and not even coded right and now that cross that across the line, and that also ignited and that sort of set them off.

In a way too.

No, it's always I've always thought Lebron was a reactive political person, not.

A It's a great way to put it in person.

I like, that's a great way to put it.

Yeah.

Yeah, well let me get you out of here on this.

In twenty years, Lebron is going to be we know, Look, we can have the goat conversation.

I actually somebody who thinks that Magic Johnson should be in the in a three way conversation with with Jordan and Lebron.

And my argument is, you know what Jordan and Lebron didn't do.

They didn't win a title in their first year.

They didn't take a team that didn't make the playoffs and win it.

And I love it.

And oh, by the way, if not for HIV, does Magic have six rings and Michael has five?

And what's the conversation?

Right?

Like, we could?

I could, I could have that, so I will.

I'm and I've always thought Lebron is if you if you went to a lab and you and you your two ingredients were Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, you would get Lebron, right, Like Lebron is the best of both them.

So legacy stuff aside that the six titles versus ten finals, that's you know, that's always going to be the marker that one person makes one argument to say it's Lebron, another person makes the Ergan sage Jordan.

But the one place he has a chance to surpass Michael and Magic is in being a front office guy and a right Magic was terrible as a coach, terrible as a GM.

Michael terrible as a GM, terrible as an owner.

We have first head experience here in Washington and we've watched the debacle that is Charlotte.

Is that what Lebron is?

There a competitiveness in him that he sees an opportunity that he gets to have a legacy that that nobody else of the NBA all time greats have had.

He can also be as successful on the business side too.

That's a great question.

I don't know if he's comparing to Jordan.

I do think that's something he cares about, right, I do think being remembered in terms of as a success.

And we see he's a billion dollars, like he's already been there, and you know, he's sort of approached the business.

He's been one of these guys who's been into like we get equity and companies.

That's going way back already since you know, since he was twenty, which was insane.

If you think of all the mistakes Magic made early on, he's.

Correct, right, Yeah, just I mean the the the IQ just it's through the charts, off the charts.

I do.

I think the legacy is gonna be maybe different the ownerships.

I think the legacy is gonna be an all time great who was different than everyone else, right in terms of being remembered as between the longevity, the player empowerment stuff, that's gonna be a huge part of it.

I'm like you, I joked that there's like forty top ten players, right, not top three, but like if you start naming top ten guys and you named Jerry and Magic and Kareem and Shack and you get to thirty five of them, right, So it's kind of like he's I don't know how to discern between any of them.

Yeah, Like, well, look at baseball, how do you have the show hate conversation versus A's and and you know we all had the official line back in the day of May and and and and Ruth and now you're like, well, what do we do with shohek?

You know, totally changes that conversation.

Right, So the ownership part is interesting too because it also maybe and this is I'm thinking about it, like if it went poorly, it would really I think it would hurt him, maybe more than it hurt Jordan and magic as well.

And that's also interesting.

Interesting, huh just because the expects It's because that expectations bar is so high.

Yeah, and almost like again talk to some of this stuff where we talk about and for whatever reason, he's not the love necessarily the same way.

It's like you're starting at a low.

It's like you're starting at a five instead of a ten, right, and it cannock you lower, you know, you have It's almost like more to lose or whatever.

As opposed to Jordan.

I mean, the Jordan thinks, wow, nobody cares what he did any point he can like he speaks on NBC Now for three minutes, and people think it's the greatest interview of all time, right' I.

Don't get it.

I mean I don't find Jordan's you know, I find Jordan's criticism of of players not playing every game to be totally naive of what the game is today.

Of course, Like it's just like it's just he feels like a guy that doesn't even watch the current NBA if this is what he thinks.

No, it was so predictable.

Also, like you knew, like with Jordan on load management, they would like they kept hyping that and I could tell you I was going to say, then we knew what to say.

Right, he's wearing the same suit.

It seems like they talked him once for like twenty five minutes and chomping exactly what they did.

Yeah, right, and everyone but people are eating it up.

So I don't know.

The Jordan thing is the whole sid I don't know.

It's like this aura around.

Now there's a Greta Garbo.

I mean not to go back way.

I mean he's in a super old reference, right, but that was the old joke.

She stopped talking to the press.

So anytime you heard a quote of Greta gar oh my god, we've heard from it's like with Jordan's weirdly, he never talks, so whenever you know it's By the way, this is a good reminder if you're super famous with holding your comments on things could then make whatever you say down the road more interesting than correct.

So yeah, so it's just I don't know how anyone competes the Jordan.

I get that's I guess that's what I'm saying.

I don't know how you compete with that, right, It just I don't know.

All right, you do a book tour.

We were in the midst of it, in the midst of it, yes, yeah, is it?

How much of it is physical?

How much of it is most virtual?

Yeah, most is virtual?

And you say this year's year of twenty twenty five.

You know, well, I know you you what kind of reception are you getting from a lebron world and what kind of reception are you from Laker world?

So the Laker world, I mean it's gonna open.

The Lakers threatened to ssue me before this book came.

Out, So that was that was fun before the book came out.

Over what not checking the well, they hired this guy, but they they hired Marty Singer, who was a famous defamation lawyer before they got the fact check, so they would claim it's a fact check, but they doesn't line up.

So yeah, so that was good.

The Laker world is.

There's nothing that gives a book more promotion than some Yahoo threatening to sue it.

I agree, and I joke that I should thank him for the marketing, you know, I kind of I was going to send Geny Bussey thank you note, you know, and uh, Lebron World.

They're fine with it.

It's fine, you know, Laker World's interesting.

I'll get a quick it's been interesting.

Lakers fans seem less interested in learning behind the scenes of the family.

The book's doing fine, it's not, but like, it's been interesting to hear Lakers fans not interested in learning about I wrote a book on the Sixers.

Sixers fans want to hear every single thing that's happening in front office.

Right.

You wrote thinks process and that wra why things might not go well.

Laker fans get very defensive, which is it's interesting sociologically.

Well, I think if you're a Laker fan, frankly, you always know that it always works out.

That's what I think.

That's what it is.

I mean, I'm sorry, you're like, wow, they picked they picked eight and got Kobe Bryant.

You're like, I mean, I'll never forget that.

You're like, oh r, what does Jerry West know about this?

Like the minute they drafted the guy, You're like, oh, Jerry West must know something that none of us know yet.

Joe Bryant's kid must be that good, you know, of course, right, and he gets them eight?

Right?

Seven?

What is it?

Seven teams passed up on Kobe.

It's wild, it's and then that's gonna Yeah, it's it's wild.

It's wild.

Yeah, So yeah, I think I think you're right.

Always works out for the Lakers.

They always get shocked, they even if they don't get the guy the first time, right, yep, exactly, No, not like we're the looved Knicks who never get that guy.

No, and yet Knicks fans always think they're going.

To get that guy coming.

Lebron is coming.

They never come for sure for sure, And like Lakers even Luca fell into the lap last year.

Now they're set for ten years, you know.

So all right, why haven't you done the why can't the Knicks win book?

I've been told that, Uh, people like positive books, That's what I've been told.

That's uh, that's interesting.

We're right, you got to get people hope.

Right, So the right you know, Jim Dolan is the kind of a buffoon is not.

Gonna the Knicks though, or it is amazing the amount of devotion they have for a franchise that really is one of the most failing franchises in the history of the NBA.

It's wild, it's kind of it.

It's like special about it, you know, it's it's it's it's yeah, it's like a it's they they hate the ownership, they love the team, but they know there's a fatalism to it.

Is a mix of fatalism and hope, which is really strange.

Yeah, it's wild.

No, I mean it's funny.

You know.

It's always supposedly, you know, Knicks fans are also Yankees fans and Giants fans supposedly, while the Nets fans are more likely to be Jets fans and Mets fans.

And to me, the Knick's history feels more like the Jets and Mets than.

One hun hundred percent.

It lines up with that for one hundred percent.

Anyway, Well, this was great.

You think Lebron would ever run for office?

Oh?

Great question.

I've not been asked that.

Uh No, I don't think so.

I'm gonna say no, that's interesting.

No, I don't think So do you think he wants to be a.

Kingmaker literally in the world of politics?

Does he do?

Because that's what Arnold would do for a while until he finally got dragged in that.

You know, Arnold is an interesting model for how you can be a celebrity dabble in politics and then maybe do it for a small period of time but still keep your celebrity.

I Arnold's been the best at that compared to celebrities turned politicians.

I think we're going to see Lebron I think almost.

I think Magic Johnson is almost the closer.

The come more of the comp in terms of the business, the business stuff, and we're seeing.

A little of the media and pot.

I mean, he's only DraftKings ads now, which I don't really understand.

But I don't either, But can I just tell you, man, the Kevin Hart Lebron ads are really good.

I mean they humanize Lebron in a way that nobody else does, which.

Might be the point, right, but just I think it seems like to me, even that weird Hennis, which we need to the Hennessy ad or the fake Decision thing, which was not great, it seems to me we're we're reinvesting in uh in brands and you know, business side of things in an interesting way.

So that's what I would guess we're headed.

In terms of the post playing career.

Does Lebron write his own book hm I or does he instead do a big documentary.

I was going to say this is again it depresses me, but this is where we are these days.

I mean, he's got cameras following him around already.

They'll do they already have that, like they'll do their version of the Last Dance again.

We'll compare it to Jordan.

It's gonna be a documentary.

Uh yeah.

I hope we get a book like again the guy the writer reader and me wants but you know again twenty twenty five.

So yeah, But then there's some things.

You know, sometimes you don't want a book written until after the person dies.

And I hate to put it those ways, but it's, you know, will people around them tell you the real truth while the person is stolen.

Oh for sure from another.

In terms of someone doing the biography on him, correct, yeah.

In terms of him doing his own one, yeah no, I I he doesn't participate in any long form interviews now, like they don't do it basically for the most part, because it's why would.

You do that?

Well, I don't call him a white whale, but I've probably I've you know, gotten close to striking up a Relationshipip Maverick a number of times in order to try to get Lebron and it's it's it's it's even in the you know, and he's certainly at some point suddenly didn't want to be interviewed by a political journalist, right like that just that was not the image they wanted.

Yeah, So, like I said, they have, I think we'll see Netflix documentaries and things like that.

Yeah, this was great.

I appreciate it.

Congrats, you're on.

This was This was terrific and uh, I can't wait to finish it.

Thank you so much.

It's a lot of fun.

I love this.

It's great.

Thank you, Chuck excellent.

Well, good luck with it.

And if nothing else, we're in November.

You don't know what to get your NBA fan in your life?

There you go get them the book and get them a hard copy of it.

Anyway, did you do your own audio this time?

I did not.

I did my last one and not to sound spoil it was the.

It's the whole I found doing your own audio and a book is painful.

It's so hard.

I think it's really hard.

It's and then I'm catching typos and it's making me angry because you're reading that.

That's what I hated about it.

It's a terrific exercise.

It really frees.

But you sit there and you're going, oh my god, how many times did I use this phrase?

Oh my god, we got to fix it, and then they tell you it's too late to fix.

Really torture, right.

It'd be great if, though, you know, if you weren't where, if writers weren't all the statement going up against the deadline, if you gave yourself like, okay, i'll do the audiobook.

I'll read it outloud now because I have a two weeks extra until and that's obviously never the case.

So it's aside from the actual torture of reading it over and over, like it's your torturing yourself, seeing mistakes and bad phrases and just you walk out there and be like, oh this is awful.

What is this?

So yeah, no, not this time.

Well, I hope you enjoyed.

My guess is you're going to hear people use nuggets of your book like during Lakers games by guys like Mike Breen and Tarrico who probably are all devouring it as we speak.

So that'll be a lot of fun for you.

I hope, so, I hope.

So.

Thanks Jock, my friend, it's.

Good to meet you.

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