Where Do We Go From Here? (00:00) need help choosing my future wife. I am 30 years old. I'm a youth leader in my local church I'm not going to make this assumption about you, bro, but when I hear solidly Christian men saying they're waiting for the right one, that is a position of extreme privilege. Knowing they don't have a biological clock, knowing that they will always be desirable, potentially more so as they age. So I think you just need to start dating. Hello and welcome to Where Do We Go From Here? I'm one of your hosts, Jessica Van Der Weingard. I'm joined by Edie Jay today. Hi Edie Jay. Where Do We Go From Here is a safe place for deconstructing sex and other real life stuff for thoughtful Christians and ex-vangelicals alike. We give you tools instead of a rule book. We practice conversations without black and white answers so that you can decide for yourself where will you go from here. Where Do We Go From Here? (00:35) Bye. Bye everyone. Today we are doing a recap Where Do We Go From Here? (01:00) We have regular free episodes year round and dive deep into vulnerable deconstruction and explore the light and shade of all things in our Patreon community. Today we are doing thoughts and prayers. But before we jump in, don't forget to hit that follow button. Do it right now wherever you're listening and you can check out more of what we're doing at patreon.com slash where do we go pods. They are both amazing bonuses and benefits for both paid and free members. So check it out. Where Do We Go From Here? (01:30) Welcome to Thoughts and Prayers, a space for reflection, honesty, and grounding ourselves in something bigger. Each episode will hold space for what's happening in the world, in our community, and in our own hearts, sharing thoughts, wrestling with questions, and offering a prayer in the tradition of the prayers of the people. Wherever you find yourself in your faith journey, you're invited to join in, to listen, to reflect, and if you choose, to pray with us. Let's begin! Where Do We Go From Here? (02:00) Yes, well, ⁓ we're recording this just a few days before New Year's. I guess it's New Year's Eve Eve today at the time of recording. How was your Christmas? Where Do We Go From Here? (02:06) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty good. A little bit of family drama, but not too much. we only were in the States, so we're just visiting his side of the family and calling mine on the phone. So yeah, no drama with Australians. Hi over there. Where Do We Go From Here? (02:26) nice ⁓ and snow Where Do We Go From Here? (02:33) No, we have never, like we've been here for, I think this is my fifth Christmas in America and yeah, no snow white Christmases yet at all. It's been like up and down the weather, sometimes really really cold and sometimes Christmas Day was actually pretty warm, almost warm. Where Do We Go From Here? (02:43) Mmm. That's funny because Christmas here was almost warm as well. It felt unseasonably cold at around 20 degrees Celsius which is on the cooler side for us. I was like it's almost a cold Christmas. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (03:01) Yeah, I heard that. Yeah. Yeah, I think we actually had 22 Celsius. It was actually warmer than Australia or than like New South Wales and Victoria. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (03:13) that is crazy, that is really crazy. Yeah, who would have thought, hey? I don't know if it's global warming or what, but there you go. It feels like ages actually, since we've done our thoughts and prayers. Where Do We Go From Here? (03:21) Yes. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (03:31) been a while. We have released a lot of episodes. ⁓ I also re-released one, two, three, four, I'm looking at here, ⁓ four episodes I plucked from the archives which are always there for you to go back and listen to as all of our over 150 episodes, ⁓ all available for free just by scrolling back through our episode count. But I thought I'd pull them out of obscurity and Where Do We Go From Here? (03:34) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (04:00) them right in front of you again. So this was our On Primarital Sex series. ⁓ So I'm not sure if you listened to it either at the time or recently or maybe not at all. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah I think ⁓ I mean they're really thoughtful and interesting conversations that I'm glad we I'm glad we did and I mean the stats both at the time and Where Do We Go From Here? (04:06) Mm. Yeah, for me at the time. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (04:28) on the recent release, the most popular of the four episodes is the ⁓ episode part four which was, it a sin or not a sin? Which of course will be a very popular episode. And spoiler alert, I'm fairly sure we say you have to figure that one out on your own. Where Do We Go From Here? (04:40) Thank Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I remember there were some celibacy episodes and they were quite good ⁓ for what they were. Like, there are people that are celibate and need encouragement in their own decisions, so yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (05:06) Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think even today, even though both of us have kind of evolved our thinking, ⁓ as we've discussed in previous thoughts and prayers episodes and others, ⁓ I still maintain that like, celibacy is a great decision if it's your decision. ⁓ You know, if you... ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (05:15) Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. And I mean, Jesus and Paul, they both hammered celibacy, so yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (05:37) Yeah, ⁓ if it's a decision you're making by choice and not out of shame and you know all of this other stuff or because of some kind of prosperity gospel that like will mean that you that all of your hopes and dreams will come true because that ain't gonna happen sorry guys no matter what you do life don't work that way. Where Do We Go From Here? (05:46) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, even when you do, even if you get married or whatever else, it doesn't always, it's not always that bad of roses. Let's just put it that way. Where Do We Go From Here? (06:19) Yeah, I mean, I think no matter, like you could be the most wonderful two people in the world, but you're still bringing together two people who aren't perfect. yeah, and then you're going to try and stay under one roof for decade after decade. Stress and everything that life will throw at you. So yeah, that's just the realness of it, guys. That's the realness. But ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (06:36) Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (06:47) I'm really glad we did that series and ⁓ one of the, think we did, yeah, like the one on celibacy and there's one that I did with Matthias Roberts looking at what are the rules when there are no rules. I think that's a really good conversation, especially if people are redefining what sexual ethics looks like. ⁓ So yeah, that was a really good one. Speaking of all things sex, I talked to a somatic sexologist. Where Do We Go From Here? (07:02) you Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (07:16) I'm Where Do We Go From Here? (07:17) Yeah, what a great conversation. Yeah, I loved how she mentioned, was it Yoni massage? I googled that and went, wow, I think, you know, I might actually want to try that because it was all about healing sexual trauma and getting into your body and not just for physical pleasure or anything, but also for, yeah, for healing. Like, I thought it sounded amazing. Where Do We Go From Here? (07:26) Yes. You Mmm. Hmm. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I did some research on it and I did find a lot of that kind of because, healing is like if you're healing trauma and other things, obviously you can do that neurologically, like with your brain. But if it's in your body, ⁓ healing can include a bodily component, right? Like it would stand to reason. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (07:58) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (08:13) And yeah, I mean, I think that's what she was getting at though. Now I can't remember if she said it in the released episode or when we were just talking. She said, she would have, if she came to the state, she'd have to be very careful because certain things wouldn't be legal. Cause I think for some, mean, maybe by an American, like the legal definition under the law is that it's actually like considered sex work. Where Do We Go From Here? (08:32) Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that that would probably be true. So, yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (08:44) Which is... Yeah. Which is like, I mean, I don't, I don't think that it is in the, definitely not in the traditional sense, but yeah, I was like, ⁓ that's a, didn't think of that. Yep. So, if you, I mean, you can Google Lydia and find out all about her and her website and her work and online courses and things that she does. ⁓ but she, yeah, she said if she goes to the US, ⁓ her Where Do We Go From Here? (08:54) Mm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (09:14) Passport name is different because of her way. Where Do We Go From Here? (09:16) ⁓ Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (09:20) Yes, but I did, did honestly start to think I was like, my gosh, it would be so great for women who have like, like us who are survivors of purity culture and experienced trauma in some regard, whether it's little T trauma all the way through to big T trauma. Can we, you know, in conjunction with trauma informed therapists and someone like Lydia. run like a weekend or some kind of retreat or workshop, ⁓ I think it would be really cool. So that's where my brain went afterwards. So I don't know, would you come along? Where Do We Go From Here? (09:51) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that would be fantastic. absolutely. Yep. And I'll try to get there even if it's in Australia. I've got family there, so. Where Do We Go From Here? (10:07) Anyone else want to come along? No, I want to... Yeah, true. Maybe we can do that first and then do one in the States. ⁓ Or maybe in Canada. Maybe it's got to be up north. Don't have to ask me twice to come back to Canada. Where Do We Go From Here? (10:20) Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (10:29) ⁓ And I love the states too, but yeah. I don't know how ⁓ it would go as a foreigner if they're checking my social media before I enter the country, which apparently is a thing now. Where Do We Go From Here? (10:41) Yeah, I think that's the reason I'm lucky that I have two types of social media. That my passport is like my personal, you know, if they're looking at my personal account they're not going to see anything shocking, ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (10:48) No. Yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good. You, you, ⁓ you future-proofed the system. I did not, I did not think about that. and then we did a really cool, ⁓ no hard feelings episode, which was, ⁓ you know, thinking that it probably might be the last no hard feelings. We tackled kind of one of the big elephant in the room questions with deconstruction, which is, can you deconstruct without losing your face? Where Do We Go From Here? (11:04) Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, that was a great episode. Where Do We Go From Here? (11:27) have has this kind of yeah well has this been something that you feel like has been brought up to you or something you have felt internally like a fear around if I keep pulling at this thread will it resist at some point and there's an anchor or will this thread just like slip right through and I'll have nothing Where Do We Go From Here? (11:50) Yeah, I think I would be lying if I said I'd never thought about atheism or whether what I believe is going to sustain me. But I don't think that deconstruction always leads to deconversion and For me, when I do think of it, when I have thought about atheism, ⁓ I've gone, it's another set of beliefs. So, like, I don't feel like it's any more helpful to me than believing in God, like, believe in God versus believe there is no God. It's not, it actually is less helpful, I would say, because ⁓ I get that feeling of like, Where Do We Go From Here? (12:27) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (12:47) that there's, that it's so, for me, I feel like it's so empty without, that doesn't have the same kind of bringing purpose and ⁓ meaning and the love. Like for me, Christianity is all about love or religion or spirituality is all about love. So I feel like I'd be giving that up if I turned to atheism. So yeah, for me, it's like, Where Do We Go From Here? (13:10) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (13:17) I keep my anchor in believing that God is love more than anything else. And I've pulled on some of the questions like around who Jesus is, which is, and it's really uncomfortable. Those are the hardest, most uncomfortable questions. Like, what do I believe about Jesus? Because that's where it's... is a difference between Christianity and Islam and Judaism and other religions. And that's, I think, the that's a really uncomfortable part of deconstruction. But it's not not for everyone. Like some people will never doubt anything about Jesus that they've been taught. So they're going to hold on to Jesus is the Rock. Like I think you talked about Jesus as being a really core part of Where Do We Go From Here? (13:54) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (14:08) Christianity for you. And I think that's fantastic. and yeah, like, hold on to it. That's great. ⁓ Yeah, everybody has a different journey, pulling on different strings. And for me, it's like, I just read a book and go, no, they just brought up a question that I never thought of in my life. And I'm in my 40s going, now I'm having questions about Jesus that I've never had. So, I mean, you never know where deconstruction is going to take you, but Where Do We Go From Here? (14:27) ⁓ Yeah, you s- True. Where Do We Go From Here? (14:39) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (14:39) You see that like the thing is like I hear you say that about a book and I'm like okay tell me what the book is so I can avoid it because I just I don't have the bandwidth. Yeah but like even for me like I going to Regent College and studying theology I'd come home and start to talk to my mum about like the archaeological evidence and the this and the that and the Where Do We Go From Here? (14:47) And that's fair. Mm-hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (15:05) you know, did you know that there are only fragments and what we have it's kind of like, you know, the Bible and a lot of the stuff in the epistles is kind of like a, a, a deck of like, what are they called? A house of cards. Like it's kind of, and, my mum at some point, she just said, okay, look, I don't want to hear it anymore. Like this is too confronting. And so she just wanted to put her head in the sand. And my mum's Where Do We Go From Here? (15:20) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (15:33) lovely and amazing but I think all of us kind of reach a point of like okay I feel comfortable with where I'm at I don't need to keep picking at this or unpacking this and yeah Where Do We Go From Here? (15:41) Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me that limit is like the switch between believing in a God versus atheism. So I'm like, no, I need to believe in a God even to sustain my own life. Like I don't feel like it's worth living if I don't have the love of God. Like the love of God is the whole point for me. So yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (15:58) Right, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. Um, you said something earlier and this is a bit of a rabbit hole to go down, but I kind of wanted to play devil's advocate. Um, you said something about like, and you've just echoed it again now about love being the thing that keeps you anchored in faith to some extent because you, cause it sounded like you were saying you don't see love reflected in atheism. Where Do We Go From Here? (16:23) Mm. Oh, well that's a horrible thing to say, it? I do, actually. I've met a lot of atheists. Yeah, no. I've actually met a lot of atheists who are very loving and very ethical and I'm super impressed with how, like, you come, I don't know, I was raised with, like, the assumption that if you were to become an atheist you'd, like, lose all your morals and throw all Where Do We Go From Here? (16:45) Well, I just want to clarify because I don't think that's what you meant. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (17:09) caution to the wind, but that's not, I've seen the absolute opposite with like particularly deconverted Christians who become atheists from a Christian point. ⁓ They, the ones that I know are really pushing for better ethics. And so, yeah, and I see that as, as loving. ⁓ So I don't see atheism as unloving. I think for me, I just feel like Where Do We Go From Here? (17:13) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (17:37) I need to receive love from outside of myself and not and need a bigger community of love and that's who God is to me is this community of love like the church the church is is God's body is love kind of idea and not I guess I feel threatened by the nothingness if that makes sense like thinking that there is nothing that when you die there's nothing or Where Do We Go From Here? (18:04) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (18:06) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (18:07) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (18:07) So for me, it's not about, yeah, I'm not trying to say that atheists aren't ethical or unloving. Yeah, more of an. Where Do We Go From Here? (18:14) No, I didn't think that that's what you were saying, but I was like, oh, I might just clarify on that. And I think the same goes for sexual ethics, like the... Where Do We Go From Here? (18:18) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (18:28) Because, you know, growing up in period culture and the rules are so stringent and tight, there is this perception that people who don't abide by those rules, who don't believe what you believe, are just hooking up with everybody. They're just out there having sex and getting pregnant and getting STDs and all of these things. then when I was working at Apple, I realized that people who have not even any kind of basic comprehension of Christian ethics except they know that Christians don't have sex before marriage supposedly but they had very high ethics or no I wouldn't say high ethics they had a lot of really practical common sense ethics around sex you know you don't like Where Do We Go From Here? (19:01) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mmm Where Do We Go From Here? (19:21) you don't cut someone else's lunch. Like you don't, if someone's in a relationship, they're off limits. ⁓ And like make sure you use protection and don't just, you know, if, if, if you're looking for a relationship, like wait a little while, make, you know, make the guy wait kind of thing. And like a lot of these practical kind of common sense things, I think what my assumption is, that Where Do We Go From Here? (19:27) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (19:49) in some ways was probably learnt ethics. It was like, okay, I do this, I get this outcome, so next time I'm going to do this differently or, you know, whatever it might be. But ⁓ there's, yeah, I think ⁓ it's such a terrible Christian misconception that people who are lost, you know, ⁓ have no bearings for ethics. Where Do We Go From Here? (20:01) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (20:18) ⁓ And I think, yeah, then for me getting glimpses from the other side, just glimpses and then looking back at all the Christians thinking these guys just kind of think we're naive, you know. They're like, ⁓ sweetie, ⁓ you know, just they're naive, you know, can't blame them for, you know. Where Do We Go From Here? (20:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (20:46) thinking they feel sorry for us for not knowing any better because really they're the ones who don't know any better. Where Do We Go From Here? (20:54) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (20:55) But yeah, deconstruction is something we definitely advocate for here. And where do we go from here? But it has to be, again, like all, like what I feel like this year, one of the biggest things I've realized is I'm anchoring more and more everything back to consent and choice ⁓ and what, not autonomy, but agency. Is that right? Where Do We Go From Here? (21:03) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Where Do We Go From Here? (21:27) and you've got to deconstruction is fantastic, but you do, you do it how you need to do it, you know? Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (21:36) Yeah. I liked the mention of that book, it Stages of Faith? I it was called. ⁓ I got a copy recently and I'm actually going to talk to a guy who is a pastor of a church in Tennessee who talked about this book, the same book, ⁓ at the Wild Goose Festival. And yeah, like he had a lot of interesting things to say. So yeah, it'll be nice to have a chat to him. Where Do We Go From Here? (21:44) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (22:05) on one of our episodes in the future. Where Do We Go From Here? (22:07) That will be so good. my gosh, you should totally talk to Emily about maybe coming on for that one too. ⁓ If you guys can sort the scheduling out. ⁓ We also had another interview with Anna Rollins, which was one you did. And Anna Rollins recently wrote a book about purity culture and how purity culture and diet culture intertwine. And I think like one of the big takeaways Where Do We Go From Here? (22:09) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, great idea. Yep. Yes. Where Do We Go From Here? (22:37) for me is just thinking about like the more we peel back the layers of purity culture we realize how it got its tentacles into so many different areas of our life and because it enforced behavior or it promoted behavior enforced by a why rooted in belief in God yeah it's like just Where Do We Go From Here? (22:51) Yeah. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (23:06) not great, quite damaging, quite harmful. But yeah, can you just tell us a bit more about that correlation that Anna talks of? Where Do We Go From Here? (23:10) Yeah. Yeah, so she talked about how ⁓ we're suppressing our, like purity culture teaches us to suppress our sexual appetite and diet culture teaches us how to suppress our hunger appetite, like for food. So they're very similar and just really shrink, it's all about shrinking ourselves, like shrinking who we are sexually, shrinking our hunger, shrinking our size, particularly for women, ⁓ shrinking our voice. we're like, women have been really put into a, you know, being quiet and modest and polite and that kind of mold. So it's all, yeah, it's all very interconnected. I mean, I, for me, I don't know that Where Do We Go From Here? (23:49) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (24:07) I didn't see a lot of diet culture and I had more of the opposite experience of wanting to hide myself in a bigger body ⁓ because of threatening men. yeah, I kind of had the opposite response but... Where Do We Go From Here? (24:17) Yes. Yeah. I think that's what ⁓ Linda Kay Klein talks about in her book Pure as well. Where Do We Go From Here? (24:27) Yeah, yeah. So I didn't listen to the message of you need to shrink yourself and instead went I'm just going to get really fat and avoid men to shrink my sexuality, to like avoid sex. And none of that was conscious, that was all very unconscious until I was much older and went okay this is not working. Where Do We Go From Here? (24:39) Mmm. Mmm. That's so funny. Actually, I'm- Where Do We Go From Here? (24:48) Yeah, but I do see that correlation of like wanting to shrink yourself to be acceptable, to gain people's love, but by being small and being who they want you to be. Where Do We Go From Here? (24:52) Mmm. Mm-hmm. I might have flipped that around to got it the wrong way, but still we're talking about women's bodies and I think Linda cake line might have it might have been that reverse with her But I do remember like I had this realization ⁓ When I was like, you know really like the Where Do We Go From Here? (25:10) Mm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (25:27) cheerleader for purity culture and I was reading Dana Gresh's book and the bride wore white and she has a chapter on modesty like Dana Gresh is and she honest I've met her in person because we interviewed her for the documentary she's a sweetheart super hospitable but you know lives in Pennsylvania and is like very very much you know literally her bread and butter like her whole business how she Where Do We Go From Here? (25:34) Mm-hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (25:53) sustains her lifestyle and her family is because she runs a modesty business essentially. And so they have like, let's do fashion parades for you know what a modest fashion parade looks like and you know for tweens and things like that. I'm not sure if she's still doing it but that was like at least 20 years after I read the book she was still doing that. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (26:02) Wow. Mm. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (26:21) And when I read Anne the Bridewall White, which was I think her first book, publishers approached her to write it in the wake of the wild success of Harris's book. So that's how she got on the scene ⁓ in the space and on her modesty chapter in the book, you know, the reflection page and, you know, write down your thoughts. And I mean, my Where Do We Go From Here? (26:37) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (26:50) 15, 16 year old naive self of just wanting to love God and be a faithful daughter of God, the best I knew how. I remember writing on that page, like I'm so glad my body is bigger. So I naturally felt a bit of shame about my body and I covered my body. So thank goodness God you made me you made me a bit fat so I could be modest. ⁓ And saying that out loud now yeah saying that out loud now it's like ⁓ I just my gosh I wish I could go back like reparent myself at that age but ⁓ and just tell yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (27:16) Yeah, so did I. Yeah, I think I felt that way too. Yeah. Yeah. I also felt a lot of invisibility. Did you experience that feeling of like, they're not worried? I'm not a threat, a sexual threat, because I'm overweight. Like I really kind of thought like, yeah, no one's even worried about me like seducing a guy because I don't look like someone who's gonna seduce a guy. So. Where Do We Go From Here? (27:45) Mmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's true. But also like because of the purity culture stuff about how you act around guys, I was like wanting to make sure I reinforced at every stage a friend. Like we can talk about we're friends, like friend zoning before you even need to be worried about that. Where Do We Go From Here? (28:27) We have. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (28:32) I called all the men around me, all the guys around me or young men, whatever around me, mate, you know, kind of just reinforcing that thing, being just trying to be like a bro, because then I'm not a threat to anyone. Just so ridiculous, because yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (28:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and do you have a brother, right? Yeah, I have two brothers and I was pretty much the same, like just, you know, friends with all the boys and not feeling that same thing of like you have to avoid the boys, but also not like always assuming, they don't like me. They're not gonna like me. So, you know, there's no threat here in either direction. We're just friends. Where Do We Go From Here? (29:05) Yeah. Yeah, it's like, okay, I really didn't need to go so hard on the mateship because, you know, I was probably the way I was dressed so frumpily and no makeup and no, like, you know, people would have ignored me anyway. Because that's the thing, like, purity culture and that, like, the promotion essentially of presexual bodies in females means you, like, Where Do We Go From Here? (29:17) You Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (29:40) simple aesthetic things like yeah people might not like me saying this but okay let me cook. You know you don't necessarily wear makeup or ⁓ you know you're not plucking your eyebrows or thinking about what you look like because you have no intention of drawing attention to yourself. Where Do We Go From Here? (29:48) Mm. Yep, Where Do We Go From Here? (30:04) Right? And it's like you haven't yet had a taste of what being desired feels like. So you're not trying to meet that. You're not trying to get that to continue happening. And I'm not saying I wish I could go back in time and wear makeup and mascara as a 15 year old. But Where Do We Go From Here? (30:05) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (30:34) I think like the... what was going on in my brain and my body, the level of shame I felt was a burden I didn't need to carry. Where Do We Go From Here? (30:46) Mm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (30:47) We didn't need to carry that burden. Where Do We Go From Here? (30:50) Yeah. Yeah, we felt it in advance, like before we were even old enough to date. It's like, it's already there. All the same, ready for, I'm just going to push men away now. I think that was, that was a big motivator in losing weight for me, which is a really complicated topic because I don't want to feed into diet culture. but Where Do We Go From Here? (30:58) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (31:18) losing weight in my early 20s was around, like for me was, I want, I've decided that I'm ready to pursue a relationship with a man. I don't believe that I can do it in this body. I'm going to create a healthier body and allow men to be attracted to me, which like it was a massive thing for me. Where Do We Go From Here? (31:45) Yeah, wow. It's so like, I feel like I could have said those exact words myself at that age too. And like wanting to go to the gym and do like the 30 day challenges at the gym and all of that kind of stuff in my mid twenties. I was like, right, how do I, you know, make myself desirable? ⁓ Cause again, thanks to purity culture, I have no idea how to flirt. Where Do We Go From Here? (31:47) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (32:14) So that's off the table. Online dating doesn't exist yet, so how do we do this? Where Do We Go From Here? (32:15) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (32:23) um... yeah man, a throwback. Where Do We Go From Here? (32:28) Yes. Where Do We Go From Here? (32:30) feel like I was gonna say something off that thing you just said and I forgot. What did you just say before? That was in your twenties? Where Do We Go From Here? (32:40) Kind of like a sexual awakening, not that I used those words, but I was definitely trying to embrace my sexuality. Even though, yeah, I fell for the messages of you need to be skinny off, you have to be skinny off. Like there's no other way. Where Do We Go From Here? (32:44) Mmm. Hmm Yeah Which is so Terrible but like that's it's really hard to escape that because like that's what you know body positivity I think is really great, but It's so hard to fight the culture and just the you know, the way the culture is and what the you know Where Do We Go From Here? (33:19) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (33:23) the standards of what we think beautiful is. And then you have, ⁓ you know, people who are experts in, what do they call it? Like evolutionary biology. And they say, well, this is why women find this attractive. This is why men find this attractive. And it's like skinny waist, big boobs, big hips. ⁓ Skinny means, you know, healthy and fair, or skinny waist means, you know, healthy and fertile. Where Do We Go From Here? (33:27) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Where Do We Go From Here? (33:52) Big hips means fertility, like all of these different things. For women, it's like what we look for is broad shoulders, because that means protection. A slim waist means healthy and we'll be around to raise children and not die or ⁓ be outrun by a saber-toothed ⁓ know, because it's like that, have evolutionary biology stuff, you know? ⁓ And I mean, I don't think like, Where Do We Go From Here? (33:56) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (34:21) Sometimes like okay. Well, that's not even helpful because okay that makes me feel like I'm never gonna find someone, you ⁓ But there is somebody for everybody, you know and Yeah, it might just look look a lot different than you think it might be someone shorter than you or you know my Might be someone the different skin color than you thought ⁓ Yeah Where Do We Go From Here? (34:29) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah, our different nationalities. Where Do We Go From Here? (34:52) Yeah, ⁓ or a different religion. Even that's possible. Where Do We Go From Here? (34:58) Hmm, maybe so, yes. Where Do We Go From Here? (35:02) ⁓ Alright, do you want to do some ⁓ unsolicited advice for a Christian Reddit? Okay, I'll start and I think I've got some for you to read too. Okay, this is actually do you want to start with the short one? The first one I sent you. Where Do We Go From Here? (35:09) Yes. Sure. Yes. Is it true that girls don't care about a guy's past? I'm a girl and I definitely care about guys past. I would never ever marry someone without knowing about their past first. Usually men are the only ones who are very vocal about this. So do most girls not care about a guy's past? Am I the only one? Where Do We Go From Here? (35:49) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (35:52) definitely care, but I think the reasons change a lot over time. Like when I was a lot younger, I, you know, had my wish list of what I wanted in a husband and it included Virgin. And then, you know, as I get into my late twenties, I'm like, I don't care if he's a Virgin, but he's going to have to live with the fact that I'm still a Virgin. yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (36:00) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Alright. And then when you get into your thirties, you're like, my gosh, I really hope he's not a virgin. ⁓ Okay. What I think, I think this is like, it's a really short one. So we don't have a lot of context from informal underscore love. So ⁓ I just like, I would want to know what do you mean? when you say their past, what are you speaking about? Are you speaking about ⁓ their romantic past? You know, I think we can assume that that's what she means, but you kind of need to understand a little more about that. think, I do think knowing a little bit about someone is important. Knowing the basics of their past is important, but by that, I mean, you know, Where Do We Go From Here? (36:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (37:12) ⁓ diseases. I think that's probably a pretty good thing to be aware of going into a relationship with someone just so you can have informed consent at whatever stage of the ⁓ you know your physical engagement is. and I don't think we've ever really talked about someone's sexual history in terms of their like I don't know Where Do We Go From Here? (37:16) Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (37:42) What would you call it? Like a report, like the blood report thing. Blood test. We've never talked about that being part of informed consent, but it a hundred percent is. ⁓ And I think, yeah, it's something that we're all adults here, right? This is something to think about. ⁓ Just have that informed consent for yourself. So I think that aspect of someone's past. Where Do We Go From Here? (37:46) Yeah. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (38:11) would be important. And if a guy says he's clean, ⁓ yeah, just go ahead and take his word for it. No worries at all, you know. At that moment, he'll tell you anything. ⁓ Obviously, I'm, I jest. ⁓ But yeah, you gotta, we're all adults here. We're making informed decisions. We are, if we're engaging in sex, we are doing so with premeditation. We've planned, we have our birth control plan in place. Where Do We Go From Here? (38:13) Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (38:41) that also protects us from sexual diseases. But part of that is also before you get to that point where you're in bed with someone having a bit of an understanding about what's, you know, what's going on in their past, you know, to protect your body and theirs. Where Do We Go From Here? (38:54) Yeah. Yeah, and I can definitely attest to how purity culture will rob you of, like try to rob you of that, like knowing people's past. Because when I was finally like ready to kind of break purity culture rules, fooling around with this guy and I knew nothing about it, I mean I only knew what I'd heard about his past, which was not so great. ⁓ But yeah, not never once asked about STDs or even... Where Do We Go From Here? (39:14) Yeah. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (39:29) I wasn't planning to have sex with him, penetrative sex, so I was kind of like not prepared in any way for that. Which it didn't happen, but also, but it could have, and I didn't think hard enough about all of those things. Pleasure. Where Do We Go From Here? (39:45) Hmm and I've definitely have gone through times where I haven't really thought about it as much either so I mean in this I'm saying do as I say not as I did but ⁓ You know, I think we all we all live with the consequences of doing that. So the more, you know, the better the better you do Okay, this is from ⁓ Mexican underscore bro. How should I choose my future wife? Where Do We Go From Here? (39:55) Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (40:14) I need help choosing my future wife. I am 30 years old. I'm a youth leader in my local church and also a regional youth leader serving several churches. I currently have a really good job and a car. I could buy a house, but I would like to choose it together with my future wife. Throughout my life, I have stood out for being kind, very intelligent, handsome and tall. 6'3". I have always been devoted, obedient and disciplined, both before and after becoming a Christian. Over the years, God has transformed my Where Do We Go From Here? (40:36) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (40:44) to the point that I now see everyone with love. Before becoming a Christian I was extremely superficial and it was easy to tell which girls I liked and which I did not. Now I can see something unique and beautiful in every Christian girl. Most Christian girls seem equally beautiful to me physically because I have realized that physical appearance is not what truly matters. I value much more their love for God and their devotion to him. Still, it is difficult for me to choose the right one. Sorry. Because from what I can see or come to know about them, they all seem to have very similar levels of love and commitment to God. ⁓ Last part. I have also realized that many of them would be willing to be in a relationship with me, but I do not want to give false hope or hurt anyone by trying to get to know them. Where Do We Go From Here? (41:14) Mm-hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (41:36) One by one until I find the right person. By the way, I've never had a girlfriend and I've never had my first kiss. What should I do? All right, bro. Where Do We Go From Here? (41:43) my goodness. What a story. I kind of like when you're reading that I was thinking so he's like a baby Christian and he's you know been with other women but now he's looking for a wife. Like it sounded like he'd become a Christian maybe more recently but that could have been my misinterpretation. Yeah. But then he says he's never been kissed or anything so. Where Do We Go From Here? (41:46) ⁓ yes, okay. I'll let you start. And maybe he was a player beforehand. Well, he goes into lots of detail. well then no, no, no, not a player. What I thought was interesting, he said, before becoming a Christian, I was extremely superficial and it was easier to tell which girls I liked and which I did not. So he lost that ability when he became a Christian. Where Do We Go From Here? (42:17) ⁓ Hmm Where Do We Go From Here? (42:34) or maybe because he was only looking at the outward appearance and now he sees more nuance, which sounds great. Where Do We Go From Here? (42:40) Hmm. Yeah, except not every girl is the same. And if you think that they're all equally amazing, I don't know, that's a kind of a strange place. But you need to get to know a bit more about them, maybe, to try and assess which one you like. Like you're more attracted to emotionally and spiritually and stuff. Where Do We Go From Here? (43:00) That sounds, yeah. That sounds like the response you give your senior pastor when he asks you when you're going to settle down. ⁓ Everyone's amazing. They're all so great. Okay. All right. How do I know which one is the right one? ⁓ All right, bro. I would say you choose ⁓ and you like just Where Do We Go From Here? (43:10) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (43:29) pick someone to go on a date with, okay? You will not, you cannot know who the right person is before you start doing that. And the right person, yeah. I mean, in some ways I get it though. If you're a youth leader or you you're known, especially across a few churches, it's gotta be tricky, right? Cause everyone would know you, you know, there's pastor bro over there. Where Do We Go From Here? (43:32) Yeah. Yeah, and he sounds like he's avoiding dating, but that's not a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (43:59) I mean, he said he's tall, so he would stand out. I would say, dude, ⁓ hey bro, sign up for Christian Mingle or something like that, or Hinge with very strict filters and find women in the next town over to date. Because you actually need to know, because it's not even about who the right person is. It's about what you gel with. Like, where is the chemistry? ⁓ And I'm not just talking about Where Do We Go From Here? (44:03) Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (44:28) Do you want to have sex with this person? Not just that physical chemistry, but can you have a good conversation with them and can you talk one-on-one? And we all know how difficult it is to try and have a conversation with the opposite sex in the foyer of your church one-on-one. If you're both single, forget about it, okay? You'll get 10 text messages afterwards, people saying, oh, what's going on there? Yes, yes. Where Do We Go From Here? (44:36) Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When are you getting married? Because she had a conversation. Where Do We Go From Here? (44:59) Yeah, yes. Let me know the wedding registry details. Okay, so bro, it is, it is tough. ⁓ It's also tough being kind, very intelligent, handsome and tall and someone who, ⁓ who is a youth leader. And I'm not going to make this assumption about you, bro, but I kind of feel like when I hear attractive Where Do We Go From Here? (45:03) you Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (45:29) solidly Christian men saying they're waiting for the right one, that is a position of extreme privilege. Knowing they don't have a biological clock, knowing that ⁓ they will always be desirable, potentially more so as they age. ⁓ So I think you just need to start dating. ⁓ You have one of the best problems. Where Do We Go From Here? (45:49) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (45:58) in the world, which is you get to get to know a lot of people and know what you like, not on a superficial level, but on a, and not even a level of what their devotion to God is. Cause all of that is you will actually see that you will see the fruit of the spirit by spending time with them. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:21) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:22) If that's important to you, that's where you will actually see it. Not are they raising their hands during the worship set. Not are they carrying around a thick Bible with lots of notes written in it and the Post-Its hang it out. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:30) Yeah. and Where Do We Go From Here? (46:37) I hope that's alright bro. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:40) Yeah, definitely go on a date. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:45) Go on a bunch of dates, man. Yeah, do it. Just coffee dates. Meet at the Starbucks. know, Starbucks is nice and safe and in the States they're open late too, so it can be outside of work hours for everyone. Where Do We Go From Here? (46:47) Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (47:00) No drinking required. All right, what have you got, Edj? Where Do We Go From Here? (47:05) What to do when you don't feel good enough as a Christian? After years of analysis, Christian girls want guys who can lead them in their faith with God. For an example, a girl told me that she didn't want any further commitment with me because I wasn't focused enough on my faith. Ever since I was a kid until like high school, I always thought that I'm a good Christian because I read the Bible, knew the context and went to church just for service. unlike many other guys who were just there to see girls. However, after coming to college, I've seen many good Christian guys with way more knowledge and devotion than me. In fact, compared to them, I was none other than those lukewarm Christians I've always disliked during my teenage years. After her confirmation of my lack of faith, the realization made me humble down so much I can't even think of leading any of these college kids anymore. even though I'm older than them. Hmm. He doesn't feel good enough as a Christian. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:08) ⁓ And this is from complete purification. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:11) ⁓ Yeah, that sounds really tough. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:16) I'm really, yeah, yeah, I'm really sorry that, you know, someone saying she's not interested in you because of your lack of faith has made you lost confidence, it seems as a volunteer leader, like I think that's really sad. ⁓ And I hope you can find people who can build you up and affirm. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:37) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:44) the positive traits that you have in that capacity. ⁓ Because dude, it could honestly be that she's just not that into you. And for her, it's easier to say it's for some other reason that seems objective rather than ⁓ she's just not that into you. I remember Edie Jay when I was living in Canada working on the film. Where Do We Go From Here? (48:56) Mm. Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (49:13) ⁓ the film on Ike is standing goodbye. A guy who I knew through a friend here in Melbourne contacted me and said, my gosh, I have to talk to you because this girl that I'm friends with at church and I really like, she... ⁓ you know, I asked her out, I wanted to pursue her and she said she couldn't date me because she was abiding by the rules of Ike's dating goodbye. This is in 2020, no 2015. So not like, we're not talking 90s here or early 2000s, 2015. These are people in their 20s ⁓ and I basically told him Where Do We Go From Here? (49:49) Mm. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:01) she's not that into you. And I think especially for young women... Where Do We Go From Here? (50:04) Mmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:08) ⁓ I do think women have an innate ⁓ fear of disappointing men or rejecting men because biologically that feels unsafe. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:18) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:28) So it is easier to put it on something else. And I'm not saying that's what's happened here. Yeah, but it could be. Let's spiritualize this. So I am not in the firing line here. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:32) Yeah, spiritualize. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (50:50) Yeah, which I mean isn't great. It's not great that women do that and have done that, but it's not without reason. ⁓ And I think... Where Do We Go From Here? (50:58) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (51:06) This is just ⁓ for you who, for this guy who's received this feedback from this girl, this rejection essentially, she's just one person and it's just one person's opinion. And you might have really liked it and that could be why you've internalized it like this. Maybe, you know. just talk to God more, spend time in spaces that affirm your faith and see where that leads you. And there are plenty of fish in the sea, young man. Plenty of fish in the sea. Where Do We Go From Here? (51:36) Hmm. Yeah. Don't let Christian perfectionism and legalism push you down into, I don't know, like, I think it only brings shame and insecurity when we focus so much on trying to be more perfect and trying to get it right. Yeah, rather than focusing on giving and receiving love and building relationships. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (52:13) Yeah and I mean I just want to clarify I'm not saying she's she said she wasn't interested because you weren't focused on your faith enough because she was afraid of you it's just a general thing ⁓ just to clarify ⁓ it probably had nothing to do with you at all in that regard could Where Do We Go From Here? (52:29) Hmm. Yeah, the easiest way to reject a guy is to blame it on something else. Spiritualise or, yeah, deflect. Where Do We Go From Here? (52:42) Yep. ⁓ Edie J, I'm seeing an ⁓ episode topic in your future. How to reject a guy with honesty and no fear. There you go. We can can pin that down for next year. Which doesn't make them question their leadership abilities. Poor dude. Where Do We Go From Here? (52:53) Yeah. Yes, I like that. Hmm. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (53:10) Okay, I've got another one from informal anything evangelistic dating question mark. I'm struggling in navigating the dating pool here in the Bible belt. was born in Ray was born and raised in the church non denomination and a pastor's kid. In fact, I'm firmly rooted in my faith knowing what I believe background in apologetics and admittedly have high standards. I'm 20 years, a 28 years old female and have the typical issues. Where Do We Go From Here? (53:20) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (53:40) per my season of life. Social life no longer being met by college, student life, time energy, consuming jobs, few locations, means of meeting, singles, my age, et cetera. Some core background context, my parents, my parent was a leader in the church and lived a secret life of sex addiction and infidelity. My parents are married to this day and said parents issues still re and said that the unfaithful parents issues still rear its head periodically. My mother is a saint and has endured much. She raised me to be an independent and self-sufficient woman. What has always stayed with me is how my mum recalls meeting my dad and thinking that she could leave her past behind and life would be lovely if she married this good Christian man. She has always cautioned me against being naive to the reality of believers and unbelievers alike being sinners. Due to witnessing my parents' marriage and the prevalence of sexual immorality thriving in the closets of devout church attending Christians, I'm very wary of good Christian men. I have some truly wonderful male friends who exemplify being after God's own heart. But when meeting Christians in the context of dating, it becomes difficult to truly get to know someone. No one wants to just throw their red flags and dirty secrets out on the table on the first date. The thing that I'm especially struggling with right now is that I'm becoming very discouraged in finding a Christian husband. I've been thinking lately that with how things are looking, I might as well date an unbeliever and hope my life as a witness will lead them to the Lord and that marriage will be Where Do We Go From Here? (55:13) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (55:33) than a possibility. I ask myself if that's too risky but then I see headlines like the pastor's kid in Indiana facing despicable charges and I really start to double down on looking outside of the realm of Christians and church. Am I letting discouragement thwart my thinking? I know of couples who were not equally yoked either pre or post marriage and have to fight an uphill battle for their marriage. But there are testimonies of God being glorified. But it also seems like a difficult road to walk. What are your thoughts? Where Do We Go From Here? (56:09) that's so complicated because there's so many considerations like, ⁓ even just talking about marriage, like, Where Do We Go From Here? (56:18) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (56:22) when purity culture really pushed that, I think it's really screwed a lot of things up. I think she probably needs to talk to a therapist about, like, she needs to talk about her parents' marriage and what she really wants in her future. Where Do We Go From Here? (56:29) I th- yeah. Bing bing bing bing ding ding ding ding ding. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (56:44) so that she's not repeating the same thing, which doesn't necessarily mean she gets a monogamous marriage, Where Do We Go From Here? (56:54) Yeah, I think I would totally agree with therapy. I think there's a lot of therapy to do around not only having a parent who was unfaithful to your other parent, but what that does for how you perceive men. think there's a lot of different layers there to look at. And also how if, you know, your father was a leader in the church, as you say, there might be some spiritual healing as well that you have to think about. And honestly, I'm not really one of those people that says you got to work on yourself first before you date, because I think Where Do We Go From Here? (57:23) you Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (57:45) When do you know you're finished working on yourself and is it only then you can date? I think that's a bit silly. That's not how life works. But I think if you can build some scaffolding around what working on yourself looks like, I think that helps. And part of that would be going to therapy. Sweetie, I'm really sorry you feel like 28 years old is feeling like you're left behind because maybe it is in the Bible belt. I'm not taking that away from you, but... Where Do We Go From Here? (57:49) Hmm. Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (58:15) maybe leave town, go to a big city and you can get some perspective that might help. ⁓ Because it totally, it totally sucks. And like we would say this from personal experience, it sucks to be the last Christian girl at church. I mean the last single girl at church. You guys, you guys know what I meant. You were right there with me. Where Do We Go From Here? (58:19) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (58:43) That being said, I think you're onto something with thinking about dating outside of the space. ⁓ But I think it's, we can't be naive to think that ⁓ someone will convert. I think that's naive to hold that position. And I also, think that there's also, okay, this is the hard thing. You're taking on a project. Where Do We Go From Here? (58:50) Hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (59:11) either way potentially. You're either thinking like I can make this relationship work because on paper we both come from Christian families. There might be these things that seem like red flags but we're both Christians. I feel my family support. I feel my community support so we'll figure this out and maybe I can help him to work on these other issues. So you're taking on a project. ⁓ And women have a habit of doing this. The church, what I've heard, especially male Christian leaders say at church, is they call it a project when you're choosing a non-Christian man. But that's not the only kind of project. ⁓ Because ⁓ let's just say there are people who are Christians and who go to church every week. Where Do We Go From Here? (59:43) Hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:05) and they don't believe in therapy and they don't believe in working on themselves and they want to put their head in the sand and that's not great either. ⁓ Just being a Christian doesn't qualify you as a partner. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:12) Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:22) ⁓ And you might have a much healthier relationship with a very secure, emotionally mature man who's not a Christian. ⁓ But that doesn't, I think the first thing is leave town. Go somewhere else. If you've never done therapy, Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:35) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:47) find a way to get into therapy. I would even encourage ⁓ like a trauma informed therapist because living, going through what you did, ⁓ I'm so sorry you had to experience that and what went on with your parents. ⁓ And I think there's also stuff with the fact that your parents are still together that, you know, there's a weight there that... Where Do We Go From Here? (1:00:56) Yes. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:13) that there's secrets that the family has to keep that you're carrying as well, you know, and that's hard. ⁓ Trauma informed therapy is amazing. I've done it myself. ⁓ Yeah. And do you know what? You should find out where mexican underscore bro is. Because he's 30 years old and he's tall and very intelligent and handsome. Guys, I did not plan this. I really didn't. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:35) Hahaha Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:43) But you know what, maybe this guy could be someone to go on a date with. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:50) Yeah. Okay. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:54) And we've come full circle. ⁓ I promise I'd never play the matchmaker. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:01:57) you Where Do We Go From Here? (1:02:02) Alright guys, that's going to do it for this episode of Thoughts and Prayers. It is now time for the prayer part of our episode. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:02:14) Dear Mother, Father, Parent, God, thank you for joining us in this conversation today, for the love that you give to all of us around the world, all the listeners and us who are hosting these conversations. yeah, just thank you for your love. Thank you for your interaction with us. Thank you for Christmas. and hopefully we hope that everyone has had a good Christmas and enjoyed family and friends. Pray that your spirit will enhance the bonds of friends and family around the world, God, just teach us more about how to love one another. Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:03:03) Hear our prayer. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:03:04) And we think of the ⁓ shootings that have happened around the world, especially the, well not especially, but the Bondi shooting comes to mind. We pray for the people who have lost loved ones and are really grieving and hurt ⁓ over this horrible situation, God. provide your comfort and love and the people that they need for support. And God, I thank you for the ways that people have banded together and the way the government has tried to provide help and change some gun laws and all the things that are going on to try and ⁓ rectify this situation. We just pray that you would bring further healing and community bonding and that people would maybe even experience more glimpses of God, whether they're Jewish, whether they're Muslim, whether they're atheist Australians, that they would experience more of your love and presence even through this situation and similar situations in other countries in the United States and other, yeah, other countries. I'm sure there are other shootings that I haven't heard about. God just provide your comfort and help people to know that you are very present. Lord, in your mercy, hear our prayer. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:04:29) Hear our prayer. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:04:31) And we thank you for the new year that is coming and ask for your guidance as we record interviews and speak to new people and think more about deconstruction and about purity culture and the damage that it's done and also how we find healing in the aftermath, Lord in your mercy, hear our prayer. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:04:55) Here I'll pray. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:04:57) Amen. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:04:58) Amen. Yeah, I forgot ⁓ we haven't really mentioned the Bondi massacre on our podcast yet. And that happened not that long ago. It's still very fresh in the minds of Australians. ⁓ And I think what has Where Do We Go From Here? (1:05:09) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:05:24) ⁓ and rightfully so, kind of stole in the spotlight from ⁓ the men who perpetrated the massacre, ⁓ one who died during the event and one who went to hospital. What has stolen the spotlight is, and you may have seen the footage, ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (1:05:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:05:46) is a man who wrestled the armed, one of the armed gunmen's who was there to essentially execute Jews at Bondi Beach. He wrestled the gun off him and got shot in the process. Someone took a video of that. I think there's a few different angles of that video. People just taking it on their phone, capturing that heroic moment of ⁓ heroism from, Where Do We Go From Here? (1:06:01) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:06:16) ⁓ a man whose name is Ahmed El Ahmed ⁓ and I feel like I'm crying saying it because it's... ⁓ He's a Muslim man who... Where Do We Go From Here? (1:06:34) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:06:35) risked his life, he's a father, he's a husband, he risked his life to take a gun from a man who is actively killing people and a man who shares his faith, albeit a very extreme version of it and ⁓ Mr Ahmed has Where Do We Go From Here? (1:06:52) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:07:04) I think globally now is seen as a hero. But what that conjures in the prophetic imagination for me, ⁓ the grace of God I feel in... The fact that that moment was captured, obviously this man is a hero. He will probably get the Medal of Valour and all of the other accolades, the GoFundMe's and everything that he so rightfully deserves. But the grace of God that that moment was captured and that the fracturing of Australia's met... Where Do We Go From Here? (1:07:31) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:07:48) ⁓ multicultural and multi-faith society, what could have happened as a result of this? This man's actions and us being able to see his bravery, bear witness to his bravery and his selflessness as a Muslim man, the only person who did what he did on that day, everyone else ran. ⁓ He was the only, I mean, people were helping other people and Where Do We Go From Here? (1:08:11) Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:08:18) helping other people be safe. He was the only one to run at the gunman. ⁓ And that is, yeah, that is just, it's incredible. ⁓ And, you know, he is a great Australian. He's the son of refugees from Syria here in Australia. And it really, chokes me up thinking about it. ⁓ Where Do We Go From Here? (1:08:23) Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:08:47) And for all of our Muslim friends, know, people who love their God, they love their country, they love their family, ⁓ he represented all of them in that moment. And he took away hate and blaming of a whole religion. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:06) Yeah. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:15) in what he did. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:15) Mm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:17) And that's like, you can't put that into words. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:18) Yeah. Hmm. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:22) Hmm. ⁓ Sorry guys, didn't mean to get all emotional on you there, but it means a lot to Australians and you may not have heard that story. You may have, you may not have, but I thought I'd give you an Australian's reflection on it from being up close to it. It's probably, I know you're Australian too, Edie J, it's probably much more heavily in our news cycle than what you're getting. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:29) Yeah. Bye. Yeah, yeah, I was seeing it a lot on Instagram, but yeah, I don't actually watch American news, so I don't know. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:09:59) Fair call. Well, thank you for joining us for this time of reflection, thoughts and prayer. However you've engaged with today's episode, whether in silence and agreement or in wrestling, I hope it gave you space to pause, process and hold what's heavy with care. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:10:03) Mm-hmm. If there's something on your mind or heart that you'd like to like included in a future episode, feel free to reach out and until next time, may we all continue to find grace in the questions, courage in the uncertainty and hope in the waiting. Where Do We Go From Here? (1:10:35) And let's keep asking the question, where do we go from here? Where Do We Go From Here? (1:10:38) Where do