Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where we help Christian men outgrow porn.

Why?

So you can change your brain, heal your heart and save your relationship.

My name is Drew Boa and I'm here to show you how let's go.

Hey man, thank you for listening to my interview with Ben Wilson, who is an intensive clinical soul care specialist at Restoring the Soul, which means that he has this really unique model of working with individuals or couples for two full weeks at a time, which allows some really beautiful healing work to happen.

He has experienced that healing both in terms of healing from his wife's betrayal of him and also his betrayal of his wife.

He is the author of Betrayed and Betrayer Rescuing your Marriage After the Affair, and in this episode, you're going to get some wonderful wisdom about healing on both sides, as well as how this intensive model can help Enjoy the episode Today.

I'm so excited to introduce you all to Ben Wilson.

Welcome to the show.

Yeah, thanks, drew, and it was so good to be with you at the Restoring the Soul weekend where I got to observe.

Can you share a little bit more about what that weekend is?

Yeah, the weekend's been going on for about 12, 13 years and it's 30.

Men come in from all over the country for healing, for places that they feel stuck or maybe their lives just got flipped up down.

A number of the men struggle with porn and other sexual issues and we've created a highly experiential weekend for them.

A lot of the meaningful work happens in their soul group, with four other men that are attending and two or three other men leaders in the group, of which you came and were a guest leader at one of our weekends, and that was fantastic, and we've just seen a lot, of, a lot of transformation for men as they dig in and just take a look at their story and walk through their story and face shame and lies that they're dealing with.

That's underneath what's going on for them.

Yeah, it was extremely powerful and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to make more progress on freedom from porn and really any kind of healing.

So if I was starting recovery from day one, that's how I would want to start by going to Restoring the Soul weekend.

It really is just privilege to be a part of.

It's always good for my soul.

You know the old saying when one man does his work, every man does his work, and so just for me being at that weekend, I'm doing work as well as we guide men through the process.

And you've done a tremendous amount of work, both professionally and personally.

What has been your story?

That's a big question, my story starting off early.

Right, I learned early on that we moved around a lot, so I think I lived in 10 houses by the time I was out of elementary school, something like that.

During that time my dad was a good athlete.

He played football in college at Colorado State and I picked up golf.

He started playing golf at the end of college and then I became good at that and so that became my identity, that I was a good golfer and won conferences as a freshman and a couple of state titles and then played for Missouri and we won the big eight my senior year.

So I was blessed and I was all big eight In the meantime, right, drinking was also a theme in our family and all the things that went along with that.

I didn't know it at the time, but you learn and those families other dysfunctional families don't talk, don't trust, don't feel and there's nothing wrong here and don't you dare tell anybody about it.

So I grew up with that and that.

And there were a lot of great things in my family too.

You know I spent a lot of time with my dad playing golf and had a lot of fun times as well, just with mom and dad.

Mom took great care of us, so it's mixed in that sense.

And so my wife and I met and she ended up having an affair off and on.

The guy didn't live in the same town, so it wasn't like it was all the time.

Cell phones weren't a thing yet I'm 63, so this was a while ago.

So she started this affair that went off and on and she would get out at some times for six months or a little more, but it circled back around and then, unbeknownst to me, at that time I just thought, well, I was close to this woman at work and we never did anything physical, so it was okay.

And now I would call that an emotional entanglement or emotional affair, that my heart, a lot of my heart, was going out to this other woman, not to my wife, and that left my wife lonely.

As we did this work, we uncovered a lot of this and she made the choices she made.

And later on, even after a lot of the early affair recovery work, she realized she had been sexually abused as a teenager and she had always called it being sexually used.

She had lived a double life a long time.

Growing up she was one girl on the weekend, one girl, perfect student in all the activities during the week, and so, yeah, realized that that's how she managed her nervous system and that, unbeknownst to her, just continued on into marriage and that was it.

And it was a long, hard journey getting back.

But I realized through my dealings with alcohol and facing this that there was only so much pain to deal with and I just needed to deal with as much as I could head on every day.

And so after about 14 months got to the point where I'm like, okay, I can forgive her and I want to be married to her and that's a good thing.

And then so when I found out I was in seminary, right, and thinking about being an upfront pastor, after going through all this, my chaplain in the reserves, I said I think I'm more suited to be a counselor than an upfront pastor.

And he said we were at a bookstore and he said, well, I would go here if I had somewhere to go.

And he picked up a copy of Larry Crabb's Inside Out.

And that summer I think that was right around Christmas that summer I was starting grad school out here at Colorado.

Christian that's how I became a counselor is out of that story Because I told him I wanted to do for other people what my chaplain did for me, because I wouldn't have known where to go, what to do, anything like that.

And he said oh well, if you start telling your story, people are going to come out of the woodwork to talk to you.

So I'm like, oh, I better be ready.

And yep, here we are.

We're talking about our story still, so it's good.

Amazing.

Your book is called Betrayed and.

Betrayer, rescuing your Marriage After the Affair, and there's just different meanings to that title.

If you look on the surface and Anne's physical affair, right that she's the betrayer, I'm the betrayed.

But in every marriage there's betrayal.

That goes both ways.

And it may not be a physical affair, maybe in other avenues right In marriage.

In marriage you live with somebody long enough you're going to miss the other person's heart and it's going to hurt, yeah.

And so in that sense it's like, yeah, I was a betrayer.

I thought not getting caught up in a deeper relationship with that other woman kind of canceled it out.

But really there was a lot of damage done in that to myself and to my wife.

So yeah, I was both, I'm both and I think all of us are both at different times.

It seems really difficult for a lot of guys to be able to say okay, that they have been betrayed.

Yeah, I think there's something that feels weak about it.

I felt when I found out about Alan's affair after the initial explosion and yelling and screaming and cussing and calling her names and all of that there was an element where I just felt stupid and I felt foolish and I did feel weak and less than as a man.

It's like what's wrong with you?

Can't you keep your wife right and satisfy your wife?

And so I think it is tough to admit that there's a lot to wrestle through in that space.

Yeah, and then wrestling through your impact on her at the same time.

In that while we were looking at that part of the betrayal for me as well not betrayal, but once we became Christians right, I had the incorrect thought that, ok, we just need to have a good Christian family and I quit pursuing my wife as my girlfriend and she felt that.

She felt that, and so that's part of what we had to bring back into our relationship and it's just having fun and learning to play together again that I had gotten too serious about everything.

So, yeah, I love that Learning to play again.

Yeah, yeah.

Part of the way you work with couples is through emotionally focused therapy EFT.

How can that?

help.

It helps you get, as opposed to just some tips and practices that a couple can do.

It helps to get underneath, to what the deeper meaning, the deeper feelings are going on for a person.

So, in other words, when there's an explosion in a conversation, whatever happens and often it happens right In a thousandth of a second it's just boom and somebody goes from zero to 100 and they're off and running and it's usually tied to other things in the past maybe past from this relationship, but more often other things as well, from when the person was younger.

And so it's taking that moment of boom and that initial thought of, oh, here we go again, or whatever it is, and going deeper underneath it and getting down to the misconceptions that are going on at that point and the deeper feelings that are going on at that point for the person, and that's healing.

And then, instead of seeing the spouse as the bad person, you know, if both people are doing this process, it gets them back on the same side and saying, oh, I need to look at my stuff and you look at your stuff and we can look how that stuff comes together to get in the way of us connecting.

Is that something you do intensively in these two week couples intensives.

Yeah, that's always a part of it.

That's always a part of it.

It just depends on the format of what we're doing, but that's always what I'm doing is going for for the deeper meaning, deeper feelings that are going just like in in your book outgrow porn.

It's like that's, that's right.

Where you are, it's like hey, it's not about the action, it's about the shame and lies that you're dealing with.

And what was?

Flaws, fears, lies, origin stories, sadness and what was the last S?

Surrender.

Surrender.

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's it in some form.

I really liked that, that was really good.

I mean that's it in some form, I really liked that, that was really good.

And so, yeah, so we do that.

I do internal family systems, which is another way to get at that, and so it's always about just moving around for the best way to help that person get deeper inside to what's going on and help the exiles inside heal Right and help the protectors relax so can live more of who they were originally created to be.

Amen.

Yeah, thanks.

It's one thing to do that individually.

It feels like a whole other ballgame to do that as a couple.

Yeah, so one format we have called a blended is the first week a couple will come in and I'll meet with the husband or the wife for three hours in the morning and then the other one for three hours in the afternoon, and so doing that individual work the first week helps calm their nervous systems down and helps them get in touch with themselves and gives them a much better chance to make better use.

And really, and then the second week I'll meet with them as a couple and really helps make that second week very productive in most, most cases.

Yeah, that's awesome.

So restoring the soul is so unique in this intensive format.

Why do you take people for two weeks at a time?

It's amazing how fast 15 hours goes.

If you just do one week right, it's you're just getting started and then you're, you're, you're powering down and so really, if there's any trauma involved at all, you really need that second week and the time to explore and to pursue healing in those areas.

And you know, two-week intensive isn't going to fix and solve somebody's life, right, but you can make a big hunk of process.

It's kind of the equivalent of about eight months of counseling or more, and so that's a lot.

That's a lot in a two-week period and I like three hours a day versus an hour.

Gives you time to explore and you develop a rhythm and momentum in pursuing important issues in a person's soul, important issues in a person's soul.

I like individual weekly counseling too.

There's a place for that and it can be very valuable.

And I like this intensive model as well for individuals and couples who are more at the end of their rope and really ready to dive in in most cases.

And what do you see as the core issues underneath betrayal?

The one thing that I didn't know, that I've learned and through IFS, and that is that the deeper longings and the wounds and shame combine as a cocktail to override somebody's stated belief, and then they end up in a relationship or other area doing things that they don't believe in doing, but somehow their soul yearns forward at that moment and with the wounds and with the shame, with the lies, it's like they make those decisions to move forward with that, especially when there's another person who might be persistent, who's involved.

So I think that's one thing is just that there are good longings underneath affairs and it's easy to kind of paint that person as, oh, that person's bad, they're evil, they're sinners, they're backslidden, and it just doesn't just service and it's like, yeah, is it sin?

Of course, but that's just not the most helpful direction to go.

When starting out, especially when thinking about helping that person rescue their heart and soul, it's like, okay, really starting in what are you after?

That's good, right.

And taking a look about what was it about this direction that you went that way.

And so you're looking in somebody's story and how they were wounded a lot of times and just how they navigated life, how they developed a certain style of relating to get through life and somehow that disconnected them from their core heart in that, yeah, anytime we're wearing masks, we can't give or receive love.

That love just hits the mask and goes to the ground and so, but somehow the affair kind of runs around and around around that mask and gets to a person's heart and so you have the fantasy of an affair, you know, relationship.

You're not doing laundry, you're not paying bills, you're not dealing with all the messes of life, and it does seem like a fairy tale a lot of times, like, oh, this is how life is supposed to go.

And the truth is there's part of each of us that is built for that.

You know, there weren't supposed to be thorns and thistles to deal with, right, but we have them, we have them and we have to deal with them.

So I think that, and just, shame and lies are always there.

What do you believe about myself?

Questions, am I really lovable?

You know, can a woman really admire me?

Those kinds of things, right and acceptance.

Oh well, I was just accepted, no questions asked, and you know she didn't get mad at me like my wife does, and that felt really great.

So, and for my wife it was.

I worked a lot after we moved.

After I got sober, I felt like I've got to wake up and prove myself as a man, and so I worked a lot and focused a lot there.

And you know this guy coming from out of town, he was on his company's dime and he had all the time in the world to listen to her to do that, and so that felt great to her Like oh, here's a man who really listens to me.

Whereas I worked in a job where I listened to men and women all day long for 60 hours, right, job where I listened to men and women all day long for 60 hours, right In a transportation company, I got home I was ready to not talk and not listen, and so that was hard and we really didn't know how to navigate that or even talk about that very well at that point.

So I found out about the affair when I was almost 33.

So it was that frame for us.

The affair went on when she was like 28 to 31, somewhere in that ballpark which I think I would imagine that's where a lot of the men coming to help with porn are with you, not that there's not older men or younger men, but yeah, and my heart really breaks for men who have been cheated on as well.

Sometimes guys will say that their own behavior means that they deserved it.

Yeah, yeah, that's really difficult for somebody in that situation.

But I would say we all have the ability to make our choices.

We all have the ability to make our choices.

And, yes, being betrayed can certainly lead the deep pain and anger can lead to a desire to get even Right and to respond and do that and most of the time that just creates a bigger pile of junk to go through and it's not really helpful.

It's like, really, you just went out and had anonymous sex to get even and obviously that's not good for a person's soul, right?

So there is a place like with my wife, we didn't name my notional affair until we were in the middle of dealing with her affair and it was tough for her to be angry about it at that point because of what she had done.

So and yet there was still deep, deep damage and that I did to her in that.

And so as working through it, working through it as much as possible emotions are really raw and can go high and low a lot in the situation, but as much as possible, focus the topic down to one or the other and make it as small as possible to discuss, right, ok, are we going to talk about how you responded, or are you going to talk about what I did and keep the conversation over there and if something else comes in, to learn to say that's really important?

But we agree to stay focused on this topic here.

So let's write that down.

We'll get back to it, but let's focused on this topic here.

So let's write that down.

We'll get back to it, but let's focus on this conversation.

Seems like that makes sure that both people get fully heard.

Yeah, yeah, that's so important, isn't it, for both people to feel fully heard, especially recovering from betrayal.

I mean, there's a lot of anger and some days are good and some days are really hard, and some days are good and some days are really hard and some days are filled with hope and some days it feels hopeless.

So it's a long recovery and with lots of ups and downs and I just generally am looking for the general trend.

You know, in the ups and downs is it generally upward, and that's the way it was for Anne and I and we kept track of that, and some days were hard.

There was actually a point six or seven months in where I called a friend who was a lawyer and I said I can't do this anymore.

And fortunately I called the right guy because he he dealt with divorces Right and his work as a lawyer and he knew me, he knew Ann and he said Ben, if there's any way, stay.

He said I go through this with people.

It always gets harder and worse.

They think they'll be able to just do it, but emotions flare up and then it gets mean and it gets nasty.

He said, if there's any way, stay and keep working on it.

And those are real words of life for me and a real turning point in my life for him to turn me back in that way.

That's so beautiful.

Ben, what is your favorite thing about healing?

Just how God takes our screw-ups and our mess and our big pile of trash and dumpster fire and just brings his grace to it and make something beautiful out of it.

There's redemption and resurrection out of what seemingly had no value.

Yeah, redemption and resurrection.

There you go so good and when you're a counselor one of the beautiful things about it.

People say how can you listen to all that hard stuff all day?

Well, the other side of that is I get a front row seat to God at work in people's lives every day too, and that's worshipful when you see that right in front of you and somebody surrender right to that love and that truth that's going on right there.

So yeah, I experienced the same thing.

Yeah, exactly yeah, and you guide a lot of men to that and that's wonderful Thanks.

Ben, if people want to connect with you or with Restoring the Soul, what should they do?

Restoringthesoulcom is the easiest way to do that and they can email me at ben at restoringthesoulcom.

So yeah, and if they're interested in an intensive, they can go to restoring the soul dot com and there's an initial form on there that they can fill out if they're interested and then somebody will get back with them and start that process.

Both for individuals and couples right.

Yes, for both.

Yep.

Yep.

Sometimes we have individuals come, sometimes the couples come together.

I'll put the links to all of that, as well as the Restoring the Soul weekend, in the show notes.

Ben, thank you so much for being with us.

Yeah, thanks, Drew.

It's good talking to you again.

It was good hanging out with you down at the weekend.

Yeah, you too, not too far away, just down the road in Colorado.

That's right.

Right in Colorado Springs, so yeah.

Guys, thanks for listening and always remember you are God's beloved son and you he is well pleased.