Welcome to Zero.

I am Akshatarati.

This week what happened at COP thirty.

For the last two weeks, tens of thousands of people have taken to the city of blen at the mouth of the Amazon River to take part in the annual United Nations Climate Summit COP thirty.

These COP meetings last two weeks and involve tense negotiations among all the world's countries.

In Brazil this time, there was a lot more than that.

There were indigenous protests, daily rainstorms, and even a fire at the COP venue.

So at the end of it all, what did COP thirty achieve?

That's what we are going to discuss today.

And joining me to do that is my Bloombergreen colleague Gender Louis, who was at COP thirty till the very end and has just come off a long night watching the negotiation.

Strap up, Jen, come back to Zero.

Thank you, Akshad.

Glad to be here.

So before we get into all the substantial things that happened at COP thirty, let's start at the place where most people were a few months ago, still talking about logistics and the challenge of hosting a COP at the mouth of the mighty Amazon River.

How did it all go.

I think it went better than expected because months ago we were talking about, you know, the cruise ships that were going to be moored here to host tens of thousands of delegates, you know, the people who would have to live in shipping containers, the lack of infrastructure to really support this COP.

There were challenges.

There was some concerns about security.

There were concerns about flooding in the venue and how that might interact with wiring at the site that was of course hastily constructed before this whole COP.

And you know, in general, I think it actually went fairly smoothly.

Delegates were able to get to the site and do the hard work of COP.

The folks on cruise ships and there were many delegates and others on cruise ships had a long haul to get.

To the site.

But in the end they were able to do so, and they were able to find lodging for Saturday night those that needed it as the talks went into overtime.

Of course, I can't not mention the fire that occurred in the penultimate day of the official COP schedule, which happened to add a pavilion and of course opened up the tent that hung over all of us, and really for a few minutes there looked like I was close by, and for a few minutes there I could see the smoke but not the flames.

It looked like something that could become very bad, very quickly, had the officials not responded so quickly.

You know, you had tons of officials running by with their fire gear and with the extinguishers and really quickly taking care of that.

But of course it, you know, was a difficult thing.

On the penultimate day of cop halting, a lot of negotiations at a tricky time for about six hours while they inspected the venue, got things reopened again.

Yeah, and it's been the first cup in a while in the Southern Hemisphere in November, which means it's getting into the hot period.

And we've always thought, you know, going to cops over the last few years, why do they host a cop during winter and talk about global warming.

Well, this time they did feel the heat and the fire, as it turns out, and a little bit of the flooding.

You know, I grew up in a city of two million people in India, which is about the same size of Villain, So I had like this deja vou, like I'd been to a place like this before when I was going through the city, but the heat in the humidity was quite a lot.

Then.

The other thing about doing this at the mouth of the Amazon was to give delegates a flavor of what it is like to be in the rainforest.

You know, you and I along with our bloomber Colley's got a little bit of that taste.

Going into an island nearby.

What was that like?

Oh yeah, we had a great encounter, and many of the delegates actually took the same trek over to an island, you know, just a short ride away essentially from the city of Blame, you know, where you saw obviously the lush rainforest.

We happened to see a cacao farm and talked with the proprietors who are doing really interesting things to not just grow cocaw, but preserve diversity in the region, not just grow one species, and really deal with actually on the ground the changing impacts, you know, the impacts of climate change that have made their growing seasons and the weather patterns in this region.

They believe different in their harvest, even different, they told us.

Anyway, that's their perception.

But you know, it was a flavor, and it was a moment to see a little bit of life in this region.

Of course, Belome is a city, it's a relatively poor city with so many people in this region.

And yet you know, with this visit, with the rides across the river, with even those daily thundering rainfalls, you really just got a sense of just a little sense of what it is like to live in a place like this, and that I think is something that many delegates from around the world wouldn't have experienced otherwise and really drove home some of the things that we're talking about in these negotiating rooms.

Now, let's come to the headaches that the negotiators had to deal with these rooms.

Coming into COP thirty, we knew this was the tenth year of the anniversary of the Paris Agreement.

We knew that all the major items under the Paris Agreement had kind of been agreed upon already, and the Brazilian hosts had talked a little bit about forests that they wanted to make sure, because you're coming to the Amazon, that we try and figure out how to stop deforestation, a really important thing.

But beyond that, the only main agenda item that I could think of was that, look, countries have to submit their climate plans for twenty thirty five.

This is the cop at which those plans will be summed up, and we will know for sure that those plans are nowhere enough to keep us on the Paris trajectory, and that Brazil and COP thirty and its presidency will have to stand up and make sure to show in this time of geopolitical tension, that the world still cares about this and the world wants to get back on the trajectory.

So we'll talk about for us, we'll talk about these climate plans.

But before we do that, were there other items that were of interest to you, Jen?

Yeah, absolutely, you know there were On the technical agenda, I will just say, you know, there's this prescribed Paris Agreement work schedule, and and those items seemed a little tedious at times, in lackluster, and yet were of great importance.

That includes, you know, really narrowing down the indicators for assessing climate adaptation and how we're doing, and that which you know started somewhere north of one thousand at one point and got down to under one hundred, and that's considered a success by some.

The global goal on adaptation as it's called.

And then we also had some separate work both on mitigation and adjust transition.

There was workaround gender.

These are all kind of in the prescribed pathways of Paris.

Like I said, there was also a clamor at the start by some countries to talk more about trade and what they perceive as unilateral trade measures that are slowing the transition away from fossil fuels and raising the costs.

Well, the obvious one at that point, I would think is Donald Trump's tariffs, but they weren't talking about Donald Trump's tariffs on that case, right.

You're right, this was much more you know, some folks might have had Donald Trump's tariffs in mind, but this was much more an assault on the EU's carbon border adjustment mechanism, which has drawn a lot of ire from developing nations, and it really put the EU on the back foot and kind of defending this throughout the two weeks.

I would just note there was also obviously there's it's not a COP if there's not discussion about finance, and there was a push by some countries early on to make sure that we discussed finance at this COP and that it had a place on the agenda.

There's always this talk of trade offs at COP, so all the developing countries want to make sure that they're going to get finance from rich countries.

That caused this problem to both cut emissions but also really to adapt to the warming that's already occurred.

And then rich countries in response say, sure, we'll try and figure out if there's any money in our pockets, but we won't give you any money unless you actually cut emissions.

And so when it comes to looking at the gap between where the world is going and where the world committed under the Paras Agreement to go, that gap needed to be filled with ways in which the climate plan could be made ambitious.

So what was Brazil's response to try and bridge the gap between climate ambition of trying to keep warming below one point five degrees celsius and the climate plans which currently say we could be going beyond two point five degrees celsius.

Well, I think it was actually twofold, and you saw it right from the start when Brazil's President Lula came to the COP it was actually two days before the COP and made this really remarkable and surprising call for road maps as He called them to help countries not only transition away from fossil fuels that are the biggest driver of global warming, but also to combat deforestation and so on one level, he was trying to muster financial support for a new tropical Forest Forever facility, a fund to deal with deforestation.

You know, it was a challenging push and originally, you know, supporters of this were aiming for twenty five billion dollars in support.

Then they had to reduce the goal to about ten billion dollars in the end.

At the end of cop they have about six billion dollars committed, with the hope for more.

Some of those commitments are conditional on more support, but that is an ongoing effort and something that they can still look on as some level of success.

Then you also had, you know, this push to deliver roadmaps or set up some kind of formal process for creating guideline for this energy transition commitment that countries made two years ago in Dubai when they said, you know, they supported a just orderly transition away from oil, gas and coal.

You know, that's left folks two years later countries wondering, well, how do I do that?

What do I prioritize, is cole the first thing I should be getting out of my energy mix?

Where does gas fit in?

How long should this take?

All those questions really are are tough on an individual level, and there was a clamor and there has been a clamor to discuss this, to kind of create a formal process.

This roadmap, if you will.

It was announced by Lula again at the start of COP essentially, and then Marina Silva, Brazil's environment minister, made an impassioned plea a week later, kind of echoing this call.

And what's interesting is over the two weeks you just saw this thing snowball.

You had, you know, Columbia lead its own declaration for road maps, UK and the EU also got involved trying to push this through.

You know, for a COP that was was really starting on some more routine items and had far less negotiation.

It ended up being, you know, a pretty all consuming and defining work over the course of two weeks.

And as you and our colleague John Anger and Fabiano Maisinavi followed in the last couple of days, like the very tense moments when this kind of negotiation brings the big powers to head, we know what happened in the end, but how did it all play out.

It was really quite fascinating because you saw countries, particularly the UK and the EU.

Being willing to draw a red line on this issue.

You know, they wanted to see some more ambition reflected in the actual text.

And again this reflects that discontent and frustration with the looming gap between what needs to be done to keep temperature rise and check whether it's two degrees or one point five and what is actually being done and what is committed.

And so you saw that frustration born out in these final hours, really the last day and a half of the COP where these countries, some of them said, you know, this is a red line for us.

We are willing to veto this final text if we don't get some more ambition.

You also had pushback from Saudi Arabia, Russia and other countries behind closed doors that created complications around this.

At the very really the final hours of the COP there was some kind of compromise negotiated.

It's far from what roadmap supporters want, but it creates a pathway to that outcome, which is to say that the final text included a reference back to countries implementing NDCs, or rather Climate and Carbon cutting pledges under the Paris Agreement that reflect the Dubai Agreement to Transition away from fossil fuels, and then a separate presidency initiative where over the next year there will be work by the Brazilian COP thirty presidency to address road maps on forestation and on fossil fuels.

It is often said that what happens at cops because they are run by consensus and all parties have to agree, all countries have to agree, what we get is the lowest common denominator of what everybody can agree on.

And it did feel like, you know, this roadmap to transition away from fossil fuels came quite last minute for how things happened.

You know, a prior example I would have is maybe COP twenty six, where the UK presidency was very keen on trying to finally get a mention of fossil fuels at a COP meeting in the final declaration and started to talk about, you know, moving away from coal, which the UK itself was doing a phenomenal job at, but trying to get all the rest of the world to agree on it, and it started to do that like months in advance, nine months in advance, it was getting people and getting countries to be open to the idea of transitioning away from coal, whereas the COP thirty presidency it felt like it was a bit too late, right.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

And actually your example is perfect because you know, you did have that sex tesful inclusion of language around coal at the COP in Glasgow, but that discussion around fossil fuels didn't lead to a broader fossil fuel declaration or commitment.

We didn't see that for two more years until Dubai.

You know.

And in the process of these cops, it does feel very much like not only do you need to do your homework early and try to set the stage for agreements, which you know didn't really happen here with the roadmap, but it also is something that can take years and years to get this text into you know, final agreements.

You have to kind of build the support.

Lula's call surprised a lot of people, and it was two days before the COP began.

We got to a remarkable place in two weeks, and of course the presidency is I think hoping that they can get this to a place where it becomes on the table for next year.

Join us after the break for more of my conversation with Jender Louis about what happened at COP thirty and if you're enjoying zero, write a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Recently, a listener with an unpronounceable name wrote, these podcasts regularly lift my mood on climate change challenges, clever, fun, hopeful, but also pragmatic.

Thank you, dear listener.

You typically in the very last moments of the cop require the big powers.

I've been there in the past four cops on the very last day, and I've always seen like the US negotiator meeting with the EU negotiator, and then India hurdling with other lease developed countries, or Saudi Arabia coming in having agree words with the EU negotiator.

What was the scene like in the last last hours of Cop thirty?

In the very final hours the actual plenary, we actually had fewer huddles than I think I've seen in the five years I've been covering cops, mostly because the outcome at that point had been kind of pre negotiated.

Around six am, seven am, and that final plenary was about four or five hours later.

But you know, you couldn't escape the absence of some big folks.

You didn't have the US there.

Obviously, President Donald Trump has made no secret of his disdain not only for the notion of climate change, but the whole apparatus for combating it.

He calls it a scam, a great hoax, you know, And he didn't send anybody down to this conference, not even the lowliest of negotiators, and so that was pervasive.

You felt that in the room, the lack of the US.

After the US has in the past worked with the EU and with China to forge not only the Paris Agreement but some other landmarks along the way.

But some saw that as a relief.

Given what the US had just done a month ago at the International Maritime Organization by throwing its weight around to try and delay this vote on a global contact on shipping, the absence of the US in this case seemed like a blessing.

No, you absolutely had that sense from some delegates, some of the US officials that came to the conference to kind of show, you know, we're all still in it in America.

They said the same thing that you know, we're embarrassed that the US government isn't here, but it's probably a good thing given the way things went down at the IMO and given the president's commitment to kind of tearing down some of these institutions.

But this absence of the US not being around to actually push China to be more ambitious kind of played out, right, you know, there was this hope that with the US gone, there's this void in leadership that's been created.

You know, EU would typically come into it, but this time the EU has a bunch of far right parties that are rising across its governments.

They had to fight last minute before COPP to actually get their climate plan approved that it's not the EU, is that it's China that's going to rise up to the leadership rule.

But that also didn't happen, right.

Yeah, it was kind of remarkable because we did have those expectations going in.

To be sure, we saw the EU kind of push on mitigation, but you didn't have what a lot of folks were predicting, which was the EU working with China in the way that the US used to work with China to create pathways to deals at this COP.

So not only was the EU kind of not really stepping up in a big broad way in the absence.

Of the US.

China also kind of kept its head low.

I mean, they had this very splashy pavilion, you couldn't miss it.

At the entrance to the COP they handed out you know, pandas and like panda ear headbands that were really a hot ticket for some of the delegates based on what I could see of the clamor to get them in the mornings, you know, and they mounted really engaging and well attended dialogues and forums on the sidelines of COP, but in the COP negotiating rooms they had a lower profile.

And you know, I think that reflects the concern really with trade measures, with Donald Trump's tariffs with you know, some of the things that they see as barriers to clean energy trade, to the sale and export of the wind turbines, the solar panels, the battery tech, the evs that they are producing in such a large number, and so that seemed to be a higher priority for them than actually stepping up in a very big and visible way to land a bigger deal.

The other thing that people were looking out for in this COP was the presence of protesters.

It is something that typically climate conferences have plenty of but we just have been to have three conferences prior to this one in authoritarian regimes and protests were really far to come by.

The last big protests had happened in Glasgow in the UK.

This time around, there were huge protests.

You saw many of them inside the blue zone, which was a rare treat for us as climate reporters.

How much difference do you think the protesters meet.

Yeah, I'd say we do normally see protest inside the blue zone, but they're in these smaller areas they have to adhere to, you know, rules of decorum that are established by the UN and this body.

And what you saw at this cop was was, you know, just a flow of protesters through the city at the cop venue outside and indeed in the blue zone, and you just couldn't escape it.

You know.

I wasn't outside in the streets the day the big march happened through the city of blem but I couldn't escape it.

I heard it before I left my hotel room in the morning.

I heard it at the site.

Those calls for action were played on videos inside the facility.

You just couldn't escape it.

And I would just say that you know, it was everywhere, and it was a visible reminder of kind of the human element of this in a way that we, really, like you said, have not seen at the most recent cops, indigenous people's, religious activists, you know, any assortment of people who care.

You know, they were among the tens of thousands that took to the streets to kind of push this roadmap idea and help add fuel to that effort.

And then you also just had Indigenous people walking through the venue and joining some of this activism.

At one point they were activists to storm the venue site one evening, and that also brought it home right that this was a cop in the Amazon in the presence of Indigenous people who bear a lot of the weight of climate change that they had no role in creating.

And we saw this passion from the protests, one because they were allowed to protest, which is great, but also because there is this frustration with cops and it kind of came to a boil by saying, this gap continues to be huge between where we need to go and where we are going, and cops talk a lot, which is necessary, but they don't do very much.

And so for the past few years we've been hearing this idea that cops should become implementation cops, and under Korea the Lago.

The COP president was also keen on it.

You know, just days before the COP began, when I got a chance to interview him, Sapolo that he would like to make this an implementation COP.

Did that happen?

I think you can say that this was the first real implementation COP, even though it falls well short of course of what needs to be done.

But you know, the the nuts and bolts of implementing the Paris Agreements, Marquee Promise, as well as everything that's come from it, we're discussed in deeper ways than I've certainly seen in five years of covering cops.

You had a lot more attention to what the Brazilian presidency called the Action Agenda, which really is about taking these diplomatic words and turning them into action on the ground.

You know, it felt much more real and much more tangible.

It is still a place forum for discussion at the highest levels for climate diplomacy, and yet you did see this substance of work and discussion around you know, really making these changes that need to happen on the ground.

Cops happen every year, and you know, sometimes what happened at one cop can kind of bleed into the other one.

Was it twenty seven?

Was it twenty nine?

Save from five years now, you're covering Cop thirty five.

What is Cop thirty going to be remembered for.

I think Cop thirty will be remembered.

Oh I hate to say it, but as much, if not more, for where it happens, for this rainforest setting, you know, for being in Brazil in a challenging but very real location than the actual deliverables then the actual Muterrau decision.

I don't want to tell the Brazilian presidency that, but maybe actually that's That's exactly what President Lula.

Wanted, right.

He wanted to draw attention to the Amazon, to the rainforest, to the lungs of the world.

And I suppose in that Cop thirty was a success and actuat if you're judging COP thirty five years from now, what are you going to think about?

Well, I missed the very end of COP so you know, I missed the fire, I missed the tension, But I will remember it for the atmospherics too.

I mean, I've never been close to a rainforest and experiencing that daily deluge that happened in the afternoon was stunning to me.

But substantially, I think Cop thirty made me really reflect on what is the value of COP.

You know, we're going into the tenth anniversary of the Paris Agreement, and the conversations were getting harder to have about what is this process delivering on the outcomes?

And if, as Andre told us, if we do not remember this COP for making any difference to that trajectory, that would be the real failure of this COP.

But before we end the show, we do have to talk about the next COP, because there will be one next year and the year after.

And in typical fashion, you know, countries kind of know that they're going to host the COP.

They convinced the other people in their membership group to let them do this.

But for next year's COP, there was an actual fight happening here in Cop thirty.

That's absolutely right.

It was a fight that actually caught a lot of attention over the course of the two weeks.

So, you know, you have the substance of the COP where everyone's deliberating over the important you know, language around climate mitigation, but you had this other almost side show you know that unfolded over the course of about a week and a half where Turkey was essentially challenging what had for a while been perceived as Australia's bid to win the COP presidency next year.

Ultimately, you know, it came down to, as so many of these things in COP do, a compromise, but quite an unusual one where Turkey and Talia.

Turkey will end up being the physical host of next year's COP thirty one and Australia will serve as president for purposes of negotiations, you know, leading the agenda, working on text, really working to land some kind of outcome.

It's an unusual split.

We'll see how it plays out, but it's a reminder that nothing at COPS is easy, even picking where they should be.

Well.

Luckily, if you do know that COP thirty two, which is a year after, will be in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa, and they were confirmed too at this COP, so at least we are not looking at another fight for the next Cup.

Jen, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, always a pleasure to cover COPS with you, and I look forward to covering the next.

COUP absolutely thanks at shat.

Thank you for listening to zero.

Find all of Bloomberg Green's coverage from Cop thirty at Bloomberg dot com, Forward slash Green.

If you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

This episode was produced by Oscar Our.

Theme music is composed by Wonderly Special.

Thanks to the Cop thirty team Amanda Hurley, Simon Casey, John Ainger, Gendiluis Fabiano maisanab Daniel Carvallo, Vanessa Desim and Diani Susa.

Thanks also to Anamazarakis, Samersadi, Moses Andem, Laura Milan, and Sharon chan I am Akshatrati.

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