[SPEAKER_01]: Madeline's way of seeing the detail, the tiny detail, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I notice that other people will not notice certain details.

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, if there's something hidden, I'm really good at the hidden picture books.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's where you try to find certain things that are hidden every time I can find it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host, Katie Weber.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've been looking back at so much of my life.

[SPEAKER_03]: School, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming.

[SPEAKER_03]: I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience and now I interview other women who like me discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths both professionally and personally.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD Parkest.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have a very special episode today.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've got two guests, so we're doing things a little bit differently.

[SPEAKER_03]: Before we get started, I just wanted to remind you that after this episode is over, make sure to head over to women and ADHD.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our education coaching and advocacy hub for neurodivergent adults like you.

[SPEAKER_03]: At women and ADHD.com, you will find all the resources you need to help you better understand your brain so you can thrive.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can book a free consultation with any of our fantastic team of certified ADHD coaches.

[SPEAKER_03]: And at women in ADHD.com, you'll also find tons of free infographics, recommended self-tests, my self-guided course, hey, it's ADHD and much more.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, here we are at episode 206 in which I interview Madeleine Grace Matthews and Karla Pretorious.

[SPEAKER_03]: Madeleine is 23 and she was diagnosed with autism and a mild cognitive disability in childhood.

[SPEAKER_03]: Originally from the US, she currently lives with her missionary family in Thailand.

[SPEAKER_03]: She is also the author of a brand new book, 19 letters to myself, guided reflections and prompts for hope and healing from a neurodivergent perspective.

[SPEAKER_03]: Madeline's book started as a series of letters to her younger self originally as a coping tool, and eventually as a way to make sense of her neurodivergence, as well as childhood trauma, big emotions, religious faith, and learning to see herself as different, not less.

[SPEAKER_03]: Carla is a psychotherapist and a PhD candidate who began working with Madeline in 2021, and helped to write and publish the book.

[SPEAKER_03]: In the first half of the episode, the three of us at down and discuss the process of writing the book and the healing power of showing our younger [SPEAKER_03]: In the second half of the episode, I sit back down with Carla to hear a little bit more about her research on women and ADHD and the incredible work she's doing in the neurodivergent community.

[SPEAKER_03]: Carla, who has ADHD herself, shares how she is working to bridge academic research with lived experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you are a parent of a neurodivergent teenager, or if you've been diagnosed in adulthood and you're on a journey of repairing your inner child, or if you've ever felt like you were too much or just simply misunderstood, this episode is definitely for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: So let's get it to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you so much for joining me, Madeleine and Carla.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just before we start, I just want to take a moment of appreciation for what the internet has allowed us to do today.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's 8 a.m.

where I am in New York.

[SPEAKER_03]: What time is it for you, Madeleine?

[SPEAKER_00]: 8 p.m.

[SPEAKER_03]: a p.m.

and you're in Thailand and then we have Carla who is you're originally from South Africa but you're in Portugal now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes and it's one it's one p.m.

here so Madeline also she's originally from the US and they're living in Thailand and I'm South African living in Portugal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where are you originally from Kitty?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm originally from Canada it's not terribly exotic but yes [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just think this is fantastic that this is my job and that I get to do this.

[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you both for joining me and for reaching out.

[SPEAKER_03]: So [SPEAKER_03]: Where should we start?

[SPEAKER_03]: So, Madeline, your book is phenomenal and I just really, really appreciated reading it as somebody who was diagnosed at a much older age, being able to read these letters to a younger self.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like for me is so healing and a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is this journey of [SPEAKER_03]: of healing our younger self and so I really appreciated it from even at the age of 50 I really appreciated reading some of your letters to yourself and and I so glad you had so much wisdom already at such a young age.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm curious for either one of you can answer this question how did the idea come about to write these letters to your younger self?

[SPEAKER_00]: I started writing them [SPEAKER_00]: helping me let go of things that happened in the past.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel that helps you let go when you write a letter to your younger self?

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like writing is a little easier for me than talking, so writing things out really helped me just release it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: What about you, Carla?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, from my side.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've known Madeline now for how long has it been.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're very good with dates.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going for four years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and in the beginning, you know, it's always when you get to know somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a while to build that foundation and really starting to trust somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a while, especially for neurodivergent individuals, I think that we've had a lot of trauma in our past with trusting maybe the wrong people or not always seeing the consistency of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I rightfully so it took us a while to get to know each other, but I absolutely love metal line from the beginning and you know, we, well, just her way of seeing the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: and she was really good in putting her thoughts on paper and whenever she had a thought or I don't know if you want to speak about like the thoughts that you went through at Madeline, but like writing those down and questioning those, I feel like that helped you a bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that helped me see what was the truth and what was the lie.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love how that's put.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I'm currently working in a crisis center with teenagers and most of them are self-harming, most of them are suicidal and not surprisingly the vast majority of them are neurodivergent either on this spectrum or have ADHD and I feel like, you know, one of the messages that is so powerful in your book that you really lean into is this idea that [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that makes me so sad about working with teenagers who are neurodivergent is that their idea of neurodivergence is so negative, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: That it's this thing that they're trapped with or this thing that it's the explanation for what's wrong with them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of the time it's really, you know, and they have a lot of big emotions.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I guess when you're writing this book or when you're [SPEAKER_03]: What kind of message would you like to convey to younger readers who get to read this book?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think just that there's hope for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a big question.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I mean, it's a difficult question for me as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think with Madeline's book is a book of hope and it's focusing on that whatever you're thinking of in the moment, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you can work through that in your own way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe that's through writing or sharing with somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think she did a really good job in not saying that whatever you're going through [SPEAKER_01]: you know it is there and it might be that you need to challenge those beliefs and they're not always true but it's not wrong going through the thought process.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think and I think that's what you were saying, Katie, as well as that you know we've got all these big feelings and sometimes [SPEAKER_01]: we just have to kind of sit with it with somebody or with ourselves if we're feeling safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Madeline, I did not feel you want to let Katie know about your love for animals and maybe speak about like the way that you are really connected to your dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a dog named Angel.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's about seven now, I think, but I got her from a shelter and she just chose me right away.

[SPEAKER_03]: that's wonderful.

[SPEAKER_03]: I always hear that when you're picking out an animal, let them choose you, you don't choose them.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a lot of wonderful animal imagery throughout the book too.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of axelottles.

[SPEAKER_03]: How did you come upon axelottles?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or what is it you love about [SPEAKER_00]: I love that they can regenerate parts of their body like their limbs, where the parts of their brain even and their whole spinal cords.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's pretty cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know what an axelot of us, but I made Madeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: She told me about them and I'm like, oh, these are cool little creatures.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I really like the fact that I could learn so much from Madeline and her interest and just the way she sees the world and what she absolutely loves.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, and I think there's such a lovely mascot for this idea of growing the throughout our lives, and it's never too late to really come to have a sense of rebirth or you know, a new identity or the way you can shift your perspective and look at new things, and I think that's what we talked about a lot on this podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I mean, going back to this [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things you talk about a lot in the book is this idea of different, not less them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's such an important message for anybody, but especially younger teenagers.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know there's confidentiality in the work that you do together, but I was sort of curious how your work started, you know, because you do talk about some trauma and the moves that you did and kind of having to be uprooted a lot and your siblings.

[SPEAKER_03]: how you found each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's through your mom, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think through my mom.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so her mom contacted me and we started doing sessions.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think in the beginning it was already evident that you really enjoyed writing and we would write, you would write things down in your diary.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just some of the things that Madeleine has gone through and that slowly became something more substantial.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think Madeleine's got an inclination to helping others without even knowing that she's helping others sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like just this, the, [SPEAKER_01]: the shares of wisdom that she has, you know, she'll say something and it will stick with me and at the end of the day, I'll just remember kind of like what she said.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's all we said, okay, well, why don't we just compile a book and maybe we can add some strategies and maybe that could help others.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's the one thing, Madeline, I don't know if you want to talk about a bit about your post or like when you were younger, if it was a bit [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a lot more difficult.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I felt like I would keep a lot of things to myself because I felt like I couldn't trust other people as much.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the animals helped and then maybe like writing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, animals I really connect to.

[SPEAKER_01]: me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're just so easy to connect to because they're always just giving you unconditional love and all they want is just like a little bit of attention and maybe some food and some walks, my dog and yeah, and that's so easy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to trust animals.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I also feel like they know when we are hurting even before we do sometimes.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know that my cats, if I'm crying, my cats will come up immediately and and as will me, they're really good at caring for you when you are struggling and maybe not able to talk about it or communicate with other people.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, they're very good therapists in their own right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Angel really knows like when I'm feeling anxious or something, she'll just come right to me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: They have an incredible intuition.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, now that the book is published, are you still writing letters to yourself?

[SPEAKER_03]: Is this become a tradition?

[SPEAKER_03]: What kind of writing are you doing now?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mostly just journal, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes, I'll journal, not very often, I'll have not big.

[SPEAKER_03]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love journaling and I love gratitude journaling, but I also feel like it's really difficult to remember to journal.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, Carl, if you have tips for using journaling as a way to process emotions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I actually have a spoke about this to one of our clients this morning, the one thing that I've stuck with, so I have ADHD and it's very difficult for me to stick with one thing for a long period of time, so I'll stick with something for, you know, like our sporadic two weeks, our hobbies, our new hobbies and then I'll just jump to a new hobby, which I've made peace with now, but the one thing that I've stuck with is journaling and not so much gratitude journaling because sometimes I feel like, [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay, not to be grateful, it's okay to be angry sometimes, it's okay to feel the emotion that you're feeling.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm doing daily oats, it's a free app that I just downloaded and I'm just adding photos every day on how I feel because I don't want to write every day, so I'm not as good as Madeline with writing, but I'm really good in associating a visual with a feeling.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important to find [SPEAKER_01]: the medium that you're comfortable with if it's talking for ADHDers that's usually the case so we can voice note to ourselves on a daily basis just to kind of keep track or if it's visual or if it's writing it really depends on what [SPEAKER_01]: you find easiest and then kind of sticking to that for a reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my reason is I want to associate my mood with what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to know why I had a bad week last week and that would be me looking at the visuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think if we have that reason to do something, it will make us do it for longer.

[SPEAKER_01]: but if there's no reason and it's just somebody on an Instagram video saying you should do it all every day, I'm not gonna do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think from Adelaide the book was very much like there was an end product inside, you know the book was going to be finished and she said 19 latest to our younger herself which I think is very therapeutic and it was something that we worked towards and now our next project, per se, is [SPEAKER_01]: the marketing of it and it's quite exciting to be here and for Madeleine to prepare for these interviews and all of this is such a great thing for I'm just super proud of her for doing all of this so I think find your reason.

[SPEAKER_03]: right exactly and I think like you said with ADHD, especially we might like something for a couple weeks and then lose interest and move on to something else and I think that's been the biggest shift for me since I was diagnosed with ADHD is just not having not feeling bad about that, not feeling shame about that and not questioning it or feeling like I should really stick with something right.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's so many shudds there and I feel like that's a theme throughout your book [SPEAKER_03]: like accepting ourselves and how we do things and not feeling like there's a better way or that we're supposed to be anybody other than who we are.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that that level of self-acceptance is really helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm confident.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I really like that idea of noticing what you pay attention to in the images and then kind of saying like that was my mood depending on kind of [SPEAKER_01]: So Madeline also what she would say to me later on in the process is that, you know, today she doesn't want to write a letter or let's not focus on this today.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she became quite confident in and assertive in advocating for herself through through this process.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a it's a great thing for somebody to work towards accomplishing a goal, whether that is writing a book or [SPEAKER_01]: going to gym or like finishing a course or whatever it is and then advocating more on how you're feeling that day if you're okay with your energy levels capacity and engaging at kind of and and focusing on it when you feel you're ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's how she finished it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't me pushing her.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was her telling me when she's ready and what she wants to do next.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wonderful.

[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I think is the hardest for me, especially, but also in the adolescence that I work with, is knowing that there are lots of breathing techniques, and I love the finger breathing, the five finger tracing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm definitely going to try to teach that to my kids and try that myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: But like lots of opportunities for mindfulness, it's like we know what we're supposed to do [SPEAKER_03]: getting there.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just remembering to do it in the moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything that helps you matteline when you're feeling like the big big emotions and you're really, you know, just like this really super zingy, like what triggers you in yourself to slow down and be mindful?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so just trying to sit like where it's quiet and do one of my strategies like the five [SPEAKER_00]: The five senses really helps too.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like what you can see, what you can smell, what you can hear, what you can taste, just try to be in the moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I like setting up your environment for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: What about you, Carla?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you struggle with that?

[SPEAKER_03]: I certainly struggle with like I know what I'm supposed to do in these moments.

[SPEAKER_03]: I sometimes I just want to stop around the house and or things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think for me, I just wanted to add something about what Madeleine also really does well as she will message me.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm going to try and do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just kind of narrating again because I think she's so good on writing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she'll message me when something happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think again finding like the medium that you're most inclined to use.

[SPEAKER_01]: is a good thing for me it would be visual or tactile so I would do something but I would always catch myself at the level that I'm at so if somebody tells me if I'm like hyper and I'm really upset and somebody tells me just breathe I get upset because I'm not gonna just breathe I want to do something that is at the same level of the energy that I'm feeling so if it is like a really big [SPEAKER_01]: So I always try for myself and for my clients and friends to find something that is at the same kind of energy level and interest that you're at.

[SPEAKER_01]: So or that you like.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it would be something that is high energy when I'm feeling frustrated.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I need to go run.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't just do breath work.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to first decompress and really call my nervous system.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's finding what works for you and that you like those two things are very important.

[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate that distinction yet because it's like you've got this thermometer of where you are in your distress level.

[SPEAKER_03]: And as you were talking, just reminded me of like that's why I I range clean, which is what I call it.

[SPEAKER_03]: What I'm really, really frustrated, I'll start like scrubbing and cleaning something and I realize that that's how I'm regulating myself to get to a place that I can then calm down and start breathing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had ranch, but it's the only time it's the, I always say if you want me to clean anything, give me really, really angry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even organize my like room when I feel anxious or organized a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not just that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's something very literal about like wanting order or wanting control during a moment when we might feel out of control otherwise.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's all a sort of that same idea of how we bring ourselves to a state of regulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: If the space around us is maybe more organized, maybe our brain also feels a little bit calmer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we can breathe in a space that's a little bit more organized.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's a really good analogy to, yeah, I just have to do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So Carla, how old were you when you realized you had ADHD?

[SPEAKER_03]: When you started to think, I should look into this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually, I started in this field about 21 years ago, and I absolutely loved working with kids with ADHD and autistic kids back when nobody really knew what was the difference between artistic and autistic.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was really back then when everybody just thought, oh, it's either Rainman or they didn't really know that it's such a spectrum of individuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's never been and I was telling him something about a project that I'm studying in these like, oh, it's because of your ADHD I was like wait, I like what are you talking about so I didn't actually notice I just thought everybody had so many projects and so many thoughts and feelings and sensory overload all the time So it was by accident, I think and then I went through the process and I got Assessed through him and then through another doctor and then my third time [SPEAKER_01]: lucky.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got the same diagnosis here in Portugal.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we always have to, we want to check that we're not in posters.

[SPEAKER_01]: Got diagnosed three times.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, I, sometimes I say that if you're really, really worried that you're faking it and that you aren't going to be believed when you go to talk about your diagnosis.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's usually a sign you're on the right track.

[SPEAKER_03]: yeah exactly because so many of us are so familiar with masking and also feeling like is it really so bad you know I feel like we often doubt our own struggles and you know we often are the first ones to invalidate ourselves when it comes to what we're going through and whether we shouldn't feel it so.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: The tracks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, what I tell my clients is that it's not like or friends sometimes when they don't think that I have ADHD.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, it's not like I want to be part of the DSM.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we're putting up our hands and saying, please to give me a condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's it's hard to deal with autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: ADHD with the sensory overload [SPEAKER_01]: It is a difficult thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that we're saying, oh, please, can I have those?

[SPEAKER_01]: But accepting it is different than wanting it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a clear distinction there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right and I guess also that idea of like how am I going to live a life worth living right how am I going to live my best life and appreciate myself for my strengths like you talk about in your book too.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was like I don't have it in front of me, but I'm thinking there was a line that you said, Madeline about you know you're [SPEAKER_03]: might not be smart at one thing, but you're smart at other things, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we have such a narrow view of what smartness looks like.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I really, really struggled in school, and so I just assumed because I had dropped out of university and, you know, that that I wasn't smart and that that was just the label I gave myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's the ways in which we label ourselves certain things and also I don't think it comes out of nowhere.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think we also received that label from other people, but I think, you know, such a wonderful element to your book and to the letters that you wrote to your younger self is just kind of [SPEAKER_03]: Like what Carly was saying, like, there's nothing disordered about who we are and how our brain works.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly just, you know, how much we end up in distress, depending on the situations we're in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think Madeline did a great job in becoming the main character in her book.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something that I thought was really nice with the, it's like narrative therapy, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is how she spoke about her post and then to control of it, which was really nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if you felt like that, Madeline, if you felt like throughout the process that you became more of the main character in your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I did.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I recently took part in a similar book where a bunch of adult women who were neurodivergent, wrote letters to our younger selves.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was such a healing process.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think there is something very helpful in using, like you said, a character of our younger self as somebody that we can show kindness to.

[SPEAKER_03]: If we can't necessarily show kindness [SPEAKER_03]: present day self often think you about that little girl and what she might have needed in that moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: So how did your family end up in Thailand?

[SPEAKER_03]: You've moved around a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell me a little bit about your adventurous life?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I moved to China when I was seven and then we got kicked out when I was 16 and we now live in Thailand.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the family is missionaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's why I think they're moving.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, all right, and the theme of your relationship with God is also in the book too, which is just a lovely way, can you tell me a little bit about how you understand your neurodivergence through a Christian lens?

[SPEAKER_00]: I see it like that God made me wonderfully and that he doesn't see me for my flaws.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think you were speaking about the in the book as well that you were saying that, you know, God made you a certain way and there's a reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of like leading into that reason and using also God's support as strength for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: What kind of reminds me of what's the analogy of like trying to having a fish and a monkey climate tree and, you know, yes, Einstein, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't I'm butchering that I don't remember what the analogy is, but basically like, you know, if you measure intelligence with a fish climbing a tree, you would be seen as not so smart or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was in a very good [SPEAKER_03]: Right, but that idea of, you know, that that we were all created to flourish in the area in which we flourish and so stop trying to we also talk a lot about that in the ADHD world or at least in this podcast, but that feeling of trying to put a square peg into a round hole and [SPEAKER_01]: the quote that you were speaking about earlier.

[SPEAKER_01]: Madeline's really good in giving credit where credit is there and that quote is from Temple Ground and where she says, um, I'm different that not less.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're hoping that Temple Ground's also going to read the book soon.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've sent it to her.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wonderful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so what does the marketing part of the book entail now?

[SPEAKER_01]: So speaking to you and then we're speaking to another person on Thursday.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're speaking to autistic influencer on Thursday and then Madeline, you want to do a few more podcasts and interviews, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're speaking to quite a few people just to, well, not too many, we just want to kind of take it one put cost or interview at a time and then share I think because from my personal maybe a little bit selfish point of view, it's because I can see how it has helped metal line and I can see how it could help others to other young near a divergent individuals on this journey and [SPEAKER_01]: just writing latest to themselves and maybe this book is a starting point for them to see, okay, I can also do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can write a letter to my younger self and maybe just accept and love me a little bit more for who I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, she's gotten some great reviews from people that have read it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just excited for other people to receive some help from her wise words.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, like I said, I'm 50 and I found it tremendously helpful for myself and my relationship with the younger version of me that really needed a lot more validation, a lot more understanding and a lot more help that I didn't receive.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know if you were expecting a 50 year-old to find your book as so helpful or who your audience was when you were writing this [SPEAKER_00]: I think young adults and teenagers more like, but I think because some of the content is little heavy, but I think the visuals are quite cute.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that sums up what it's like to be a teenager.

[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of heavy things that happened to you and there are a lot of very like, [SPEAKER_03]: dark adult topics in our lives that you know we want to we wish we could have been sheltered from a little bit longer, but then also like allowing that child to still exist and color and and that that playful side and that's kind of the beautiful and terrifying part of being a teenager.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I don't as well like I am fully one now and I feel like I just need shiny things around me to make myself remember who I am you know and and still have that child like view of the world absolutely love being childlike still that's why I like working with younger individuals too.

[SPEAKER_03]: Same.

[SPEAKER_03]: Same.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's new to me to work with teenagers, although I have two teenagers at home and absolutely my favorite population to work with.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like, you know, a lot of what is needed is just validation and understanding and not, you know, reinforcing this idea like you do in your book, Madeline that like you're not broken, there's something wrong with you.

[SPEAKER_03]: And and like you said, Carla, there's no such thing as bad feelings, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We can we can feel what we need to feel and it's really about how we cope and and what tools we have in our toolbox.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then no judgment.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important.

[SPEAKER_01]: No judgment towards yourself and then towards the person that you're with as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really just having a space where it's judgment free.

[SPEAKER_01]: For once for us near an average of the individuals, we just don't want to be judged.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just can say what we want to say.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that reminds me, Madeleine, I really liked what you had to say about rejection sensitive to sport.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, which I always talk about like everybody remembers exactly where they were the first time they heard that term because That is it says so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it explains so much about our experience with emotions and the [SPEAKER_03]: the lack of judgment and the forgiveness you had for yourself about, you know, apologizing a lot, or being really, you know, not, you know, feeling like you were having a really, really abnormal or intense reaction to a situation.

[SPEAKER_03]: And instead of saying, like, here's how you could not have that reaction, you really was wrote to yourself about, like, of course, you're going to have that reaction.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is, you have big emotions.

[SPEAKER_03]: It makes complete sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we could all use a little bit more [SPEAKER_03]: approach, which is that curiosity of course you're going to react this way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes I think we jump to the like, how can I be normal and how can I stop being more like myself?

[SPEAKER_03]: And actually I feel like you use the term normal in your book too.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious what you would say to somebody who a younger person who says, I just want to be normal.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's say I'm still trying [SPEAKER_00]: It's still hard for me too, but I'm learning more and more how to be myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good answer because I think like we sometimes we do want to just say like oh, I just wish I didn't have the sensitivity or I wish it was easier for me to meet new people and I don't stress this much when I do live for example.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been doing this for 20 years and I still get super anxious.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of like you're managing it, but understanding being okay with it and then working through it like Madeline was saying and something that we're trying to figure out is okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's all right, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to have all the answers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I think after that, getting to a place where you realize, oh, it's actually my intensity that is my gift.

[SPEAKER_03]: And seeing the super power side, I don't like that word, but I think there are ways in which we can start to recognize a lot of the time that the things that caused us the most suffering at one point end up being the things that we love and appreciate the most about ourselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: for the way that we see the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Madeline's way of seeing like the detail.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the tiny detail, right, of the accelerators, for example.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know like I noticed like things that other people will not notice, like certain details.

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, like if there's [SPEAKER_00]: something hidden like I'm really good at the hidden picture books.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you know what that is, but it's like where you try to find certain things that are hidden like every time I can find it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess my next question would be what do you love most about your neurodivergence, your autism, both of you, or Carly, your ADHD?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to go first, not alone or do you want me to go first?

[SPEAKER_01]: You could go first.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, I would say kind of what you said Katie with intensity, but also just that intuitive sense when I meet somebody for the first time, and I know that this is just going to be the person that I want to talk with, um, [SPEAKER_01]: I think we kind of flock together as very intuitive empathic individuals, so I love that I work in this field because I have the honor of meeting near a divergent individuals on a daily basis and learning from all of my clients.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say friends, but I need to stay professional.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think it's, it's that intense love that I'm seeing the connection with near at a virgin individuals, even if it is on a Zoom call.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like we, we really know how to connect on a deeper level, whereas I think a lot of times in the world today, we're missing that connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: and people are just waiting to talk or respond, whereas I think with neurodivergent individuals, we really do get to the second layer and the third layer of connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't know if you wanna add to what do you love about the way that you see the world's metal line?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I love that, like I'm more, [SPEAKER_00]: understanding of people with disabilities because I have a disability, so I think that's something and that just that I see the world differently through different lens.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Carlos, you were talking to your reminded me of what my son said when he was younger.

[SPEAKER_03]: He said, I'm like, you, Mom, I like the big talk, not the small talk.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I've often said, like, what I know when I'm talking to somebody who's neurodivergent because I feel like completely relaxed.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I've just like taken off a two-tight pair of pants or taken my bra for something.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just feel like we're speaking the same language and I take it for granted on the podcast, but it's when I'm kind of out in the world talking to other people that I realize how stressful it can be to just talk to other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm just noticing like my body posture, everything, you know, when I'm not doing my sessions, I start like seeing how my shoulders are growing up and I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't be doing this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, Madeline's got a nice later masking in her book too, but that feeling of that you need to pretend and smile and laugh at the right times that is exhausting.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I was just pulling up the, when I realized I'm not masking.

[SPEAKER_03]: journal entry.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have the book up in front of me now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what do you do in those moments when you are when you realize you're in like your whole body is tense of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're masking.

[SPEAKER_00]: I try just to realize like recognize what I'm doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then like I do mask in front of people that I don't know that well, but in front of people that I do know I feel free to be myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember sometimes medalline when we talk, you'll say to me things like, oh, I was just laughing there, but I felt a bit uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you would notice it and you would actually say it to me sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So which I think is quite good because that makes you more aware of when you're doing it like I would now when I start laughing in a group like because I've got social anxiety I would pause and be like I wasn't funny I don't even know what the joke was I just saw people love so I loved and that makes me more anxious because what if they're going to ask me questions about the [SPEAKER_01]: joke, you know, like I think the pastoral mark comes back.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would pause like with meta-line to sometimes with our sessions or times together and just say, that was an actually what I felt.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would step away and just take a breath and just notice how anxious I am and maybe just go to the bathroom and take a few deep breaths and then go out again.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to try that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because even like you said, just in that moment, giving yourself permission to say, that's not how I, you know, I had that reaction and I understand why I had that reaction, but that's not actually how I'm feeling and just naming that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think like even as you were just saying it, Carla, I started to relax because I've been in that situation so often where it's like, why is everybody laughing?

[SPEAKER_03]: What do I do right now?

[SPEAKER_03]: I love.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now I'm curious, dude.

[SPEAKER_03]: Madeline, do you feel like Thailand is more accepting of disability and neurodivergence or differences?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or given the fact that we're all over the world right now and in so many different cultures, I'm curious to hear your both of your opinions about how neurodivergence is viewed where you are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, Angie.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is a very limited access to help for neurodivergent people here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not many services, not much of an understanding of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually seen as a curse and they hide their children away.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or my husband teaches English in some of the schools and [SPEAKER_02]: He'll notice narrative version kids and they're just in the back of the room.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's not services for them at the schools.

[SPEAKER_02]: We work with a foundation that serves families and kids with disabilities.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we have one occupational therapy place here in the city that I live.

[SPEAKER_02]: And some of the kids that we work with, they go for therapy once every six weeks, maybe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not a lot of understanding or help for them.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I hope some of them are going to get a chance to read your book battle line and hear your perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Angie shows it to some of the kids that she's helping and she has seen some of the strategies that the kids are utilizing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's, you know, that's where it starts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like some family is helping others and then it's got this kind of like snowball effect, hopefully.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, even in Portugal, I mean, I love living here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that there are some great initiatives focusing on neurodivergence.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's definitely evolving the understanding of autism ADHD, but it's still not where it should be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're at a narrative at the moment where it's us versus them, which I also don't like.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love that narrative of like, okay, so let's make accommodations for near-a-divergent individuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas I would see [SPEAKER_01]: true inclusion as let's learn from everybody and to make it better for everybody because I still think if you're doing, let's accommodate, accommodate, accommodate, we're seen as ADHDers or autistic individuals or ADHDers are seen as we're, you know, it's a little bit of a charity feeling.

[SPEAKER_01]: to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, we'll do this for you to make it better for you, but it's actually the accommodations that we require as near a divergent individuals, better communication, a sensory friendly environment to learn in understanding curiosity, you know, those things are great for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not just great for near a divergent individuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we can optimize an [SPEAKER_01]: learning our needs per se, but then not seeing it as it's a charity case.

[SPEAKER_01]: It really is going to make everything better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our empathy towards one another in general, like just learning from people and not judging it, being curious and not [SPEAKER_01]: saying that what you're doing or thinking is wrong, staying curious with other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just a better way of being human.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, I agree.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think accommodations benefit everybody a lot of the time, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's called universal design.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that idea of, [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking about the curb at a corner and the dip in the curve, which is, you know, therefore for wheelchairs, but then it benefits everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think if we took more of that approach, like he said instead of the rolling eyes and well, if we accommodate you, we have to accommodate everybody like, well, then yeah, let's do that because they really do benefit everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I think, you know, one of the conversations I have a lot on this podcast too is the as we expand the spectrum of neurodivergence and and who is under that umbrella, a lot of people feel like it's.

[SPEAKER_03]: a disservice to those people who are in the highest need category in terms of it kind of it's watering it down or taking away services from or you know we're making it more difficult for people with high support needs who need services and I feel like how you just phrased at Garland in terms of like well we should be looking at how we can make everything as [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think if we box people this and we see it as okay, well, we can learn from everybody and, you know, we can, we can accommodate everybody's different types of profiles, I think we're just at a better stage because once we start polarizing there's always going to be this is better than that kind of narrative which I don't believe in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an ongoing evolution, hopefully for the better of all of us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Carly, your website is CarlyPertoria.com, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'll have a link to, I guess, Amazon for Madeleine your book in the show notes and on my website.

[SPEAKER_03]: But is there anything we haven't covered or anything you still wanted to talk about about the book or about your journey?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess that's it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what about you, Carlos, or anything you want to make sure we...

Well, I think we...

[SPEAKER_01]: the what I've learned from Adeline and her process is that just finding the confidence in whatever you'd like and going with it and finding a safe space to do so really makes a massive difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if it is with the therapist, it's with the therapist or if it's with the parent or a friend or finding a mentor in a in a way and I'm really honored that I've been mentoring, which has been [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the support from parents saying, look, this is your space.

[SPEAKER_01]: We give you free wool to go with the process.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her parents have been wonderful in that regard.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've given me a lot of trust working with her on a weekly basis.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it is if you don't have that, if you don't have that support from parents to find somebody that you can feel safe with.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it is an animal, start with an animal and then move over to finding a person, finding a person [SPEAKER_01]: that accepts you for who you are so that you can also feel like you can go with what works for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if it is writing or if it is drawing or if it is, you know, like doing arts or learning more in the in the fields just find something that you absolutely love and accepting yourself through that process.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it helps a lot with the confidence.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know if that made sense, but that's my ADHD way of time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was just going to say, I noticed you didn't say, find an AI chatbot.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a more big fan of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Find an animal or a human or something tangible, who can, who can, where you can feel safe to be yourself.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think with AI, I think it's great in rewriting the way that we initially want to say something to another person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I use it a lot in saying, okay, please just rewrite this in a nicer way or a more professional way.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think if we really want that true connection, a authentic connection, it needs to be with the living being that's not just.

[SPEAKER_01]: saying things that are out there already.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it needs to be with somebody that is actually just sitting with you and listening that I think is not what AI is giving because it's waiting to respond and validate whatever you're saying, which is also not always the best psychological approach trying.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that could be a whole other episode.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not going to do that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I, for one, just want to thank you for this project.

[SPEAKER_03]: And thank you for publishing this book.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was a really, it was very healing to read it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And as somebody on the other side of the world, I really, I'm just so glad that it's out there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll do what I can to help make sure as, you know, other people can get a chance to read it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I wish you both all the best.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's been a real pleasure to meet you and have this experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: you were having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you so much, Katie.

[SPEAKER_01]: There.

[SPEAKER_01]: This has been lovely.

[SPEAKER_01]: We could definitely continue talking to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been a whole hour already.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I've brought Carla back so that she and I can have just some time to kind of process the interview with that align, but also I wanted to hear a little bit more about you, Carla and the work that you're doing and the research that you're doing, especially the research with for, well, I guess your research is on women in ADHD, so can you tell me a little bit more about.

[SPEAKER_03]: what you're working on?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me back.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was lovely to speak with you in Madeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so what I do is I'm a therapist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm currently busy focusing on my PhD specifically on ADHD and woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that there is enough of a focus on women specifically.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think every gender should be looked at differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because we present so differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: My goal through research, which is a big goal, I think, is to combine academic writings and journals and what we know in academia with lived experience and because I have ADHD myself, I feel like I can hopefully bring those two together.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that as clinicians, we don't focus enough on what is actually going on, not just our inattention, but the anxiety that we feel when people say that we're not paying attention, or the low mood that we're feeling because we can't keep relationships going.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not about the symptoms as much as the feelings and the emotions that we have surrounding those kind of characteristics or symptoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I answered your question though.

[SPEAKER_03]: You did actually, you know, maybe think about, you know, a lot of what I experienced as somebody who is diagnosed with depression and the anxiety long before I was diagnosed with ADHD is the way that I think a lot of the time in the therapy world.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's the eagerness to diagnose immediately or, you know, to label what it is we're experiencing and so many of the women I've spoken to and the clients I've worked with.

[SPEAKER_03]: had negative experiences with therapy because there was a sense that like you're just depressed or you just have anxiety and you're kind of put in this box and then the treatment is based on that one presenting concern.

[SPEAKER_03]: And not kind of, you know, panning back and looking at the whole picture in terms of like what led to this depression, what led to this, I think, you know, there's such a focus on evidence based practice and like solving the issue as quickly as possible and not really thinking about the, you know, neurobiology behind some of these.

[SPEAKER_03]: move like nosies.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The neuro biology of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we need to look at the neuro divergent lens through a neuro divergent lens because if we are just going to manage or treat anxiety or depression, we're not looking at why are we going through these intense emotions and feelings.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at [SPEAKER_01]: you shouldn't be anxious in the situation because you're safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but what about before that, all of the thought process is that lead to not feeling safe or psychologically safe in that situation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the near-advergent lens that we really need to understand as clinicians and provide support for that, because otherwise we're always going to feel like we're doing something wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's [SPEAKER_01]: What did we do wrong now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Just horrible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love the way you put things.

[SPEAKER_03]: So so now you mostly work with ADHD or how did you start working with autistic clients like Madeline?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I've worked with near-divergent individuals before we were cold near-divergent individuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: When 21 years ago, I started in the field and I kind of just fell in love with the way that individuals thought differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was first in America.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually on a tennis scholarship in the States.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was a tennis coach and they used to put me always with the ADHD kids or the autistic kids and they said, Are you are good with those kids?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, now we know the reason because I connect so well with them, but I just I loved the way that they thought outside the box and I pushed the limits and they would ask random questions that wasn't that weren't really related to tennis and I was like, these minds are amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was my mission when I went back to South Africa where I'm from.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to work with an autistic child and this is back in the day when you still open the newspaper and you looked for jobs in the newspaper and actual newspaper.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just saw this ad that said, therapist needed no experience needed.

[SPEAKER_01]: We will train you on the job to work with an autistic girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was three at that point and I started working with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: her mom doesn't mind being saying her name and name is Akila.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still very good friends with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's 23 now.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's still messages me every day.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's how I started and throughout the journey, I think I realized, okay, the way the reason why I connect so well with autistic individuals and ADHD are as [SPEAKER_01]: is because I see the world similarly, and my therapist then said, yeah, but it's because you've got ADHD, and then later mentioned that probably already HD.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's always, that's the thing I'm experiencing right now as I'm in my internship is seeing neurodivergence in every single client and really have trying to figure out like, is there even such thing as somebody a client who is just depressed or just anxious and and.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it makes sense that, you know, especially work of a teenager's neurodivergence, like that's where we end up.

[SPEAKER_03]: We end up in therapy.

[SPEAKER_03]: We end up in crisis clinics, but because, like you said, there's that narrative of what's wrong with me in terms of my, my world view and always feeling a little different and other, I mean, ever worked with a client where you were, like, this is not neurodivergence.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is just depression or this is just anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: I specialize in neurodivergence, so my clients usually find me because of my socials and I'm so focused on neurodivergence, which I absolutely love working in that field.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we should specialize as therapists and become more and more knowledgeable about the, you know, the different types of conditions and profiles that we work with because it's so much to learn, but to answer your question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see it as near an virgin versus near a typical and I also think it's a bit of a dangerous narrative because then we're not seeing everybody as one and we can learn from one another.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I do see everyone as having a specific profile.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you might be more inclined towards a low mood or anxiety or [SPEAKER_01]: you know more of an ADHD type of way of working or an autistic way of working and then you have like some of these other traits like anxiety or OCD or or depression but I don't see it as like you just get this normal person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think a person masks really well but there's definitely [SPEAKER_01]: people that think that a certain way of doing things or finishing talks or interacting with individuals on a very surface level is normal and that's fine for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it is that and I don't want to offend anyone but maybe it is that they're not looking a little bit further and questioning those societal norms and really leaning into their neurodivergent [SPEAKER_01]: potential brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we know for sure other than what we know in neuropsych, where we do know that ADHD brains are differently wired and autistic brains, you know, some parts are differently lit up with certain tasks.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we can take from science and then also maybe say that [SPEAKER_01]: we're all a little bit different and we need to embrace it like and not be as scared of the differences so that we can actually learn from one another and not make accommodations for a group.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I think where where I get concerned or where I'm, you know, most curious about the blurring of the lines in terms of high support needs and low support needs and this idea of like if there's a lot of people who have low support needs who are becoming the [SPEAKER_03]: mouthpieces for neurodivergence and the autism community are they doing a disservice to the families with really, really high support needs who require, you know, this to be taken seriously, quote unquote, or, you know, there are a lot of parents who feel like that the expansion of the definition of what is or isn't autistic and what is there isn't neurodivergent and as we [SPEAKER_03]: begin to understand more about masking and the ways in which it presents in different genders, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_03]: What do you say to families that feel like their children are worried that their children are going to get about that they need or that people won't take them seriously enough in terms of their need for accommodations?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a difficult question because it's it's a very hard process for parents to know what's going to happen in the future, right, and there are so many stressors that they have just being a parent of any child, you know, and take my hat off to all parents, but to know that your your child will need accommodations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't know what that would look like or if they will receive that that's that's very stressful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say to try as much as possible to trust the process and know that there are people really.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying my best and I know so many other advocates that are fighting for, you know, a nearer affirming.

[SPEAKER_01]: environment, schools and workplaces, and we are evolving, but try as much as possible to just stay in the moment and just be with your child and go with them because they're going to they're going to surprise you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it at the time and time again with the [SPEAKER_01]: very many children that I've worked with that they surprise our expectations if they just have that space of they can just be themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of the high versus low support needs, that's a question that I think is good to have but I think we should focus more on the awareness you know like it's good to for anyone to be aware that there are individuals with certain [SPEAKER_01]: the more we speak, the better.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, you know, it is more difficult if you're a non-speaker to get your words out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are individuals there, you know, like either Kadar, there are many individuals that that write, like Madeline too, and it's good to read those writings.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's, you know, it's a difficult [SPEAKER_01]: It's, again, it's a difficult question because I feel like I present as high, you know, like highly intelligent and people think, oh, she, you know, she can eloquently sometimes say what she wants, but I have so much anxiety, Katie, like I, as I'm sitting here my neck is completely red.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I'm scratching my nails kind of off because I'm nervous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been doing this for 21 years, but people don't see that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So is that low support?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yes, okay, I don't need somebody to sit here with me, but off to this, I need like a decompression hour, you know, so I'm not comparing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that everyone is going through something.

[SPEAKER_01]: everyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe it is up to us to just know that we can give anyone and everyone a little bit of space and grace and just be curious about their journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if there's something we can do, I think people are innately good.

[SPEAKER_01]: If there's something that we can do to make our life of our neighbor, a little bit better, wouldn't we do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we would, if we know.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and as you were speaking, it reminded me of what you said in our earlier conversation too about, you know, the reminder that accommodations are a societal issue.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're not an individual issue, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so there's some like consolation in knowing that the more mouthpieces there are for an issue highlighting the societal deficits, as opposed to saying we need more individual accommodations, [SPEAKER_03]: As we widen the lens a little bit, that is actually could be argued as helpful for looking at this as a societal issue and not, you know, highlighting the individual issues and what they need and I suppose as a parent, you know, especially, you know, with my own kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: looking at like, I need them to have what they need right now and I, you know, might not have the time or bandwidth to really think about this societal issue.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, is I hope there's ways in which these different ends of the spectrum in the community can be working together for like you said for the same goal of wider acceptance and understanding.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I was speaking to two people Fred and Andy yesterday about this concept that we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: They do irregular training, which is a lot of the name for them at organizations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what they were saying is that there aren't really like specific things that we can tell people to accommodate for a narrative urgent individuals in the workplace.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what we can do is take away barriers.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's for all people really a great focus point is how can we take away barriers, you know, like when back in the day when we didn't have ramps for wheelchairs now we have ramps for wheelchairs and it actually helps a lot of people I don't want to.

[SPEAKER_01]: clump stairs when I'm really tired of the mood.

[SPEAKER_01]: The ramp is really nice, you know, and I can also help somebody that's going up with their wheelchair if they need help or an older lady that has like groceries or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's helping everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's to see like, you know, this whole design, universal design that we were speaking about as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like changing for the better for [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's less of a, this is what you need to do for my child, or for me, which I think can get a bit frustrating for the person advocating and also the people hearing it because we don't want to as as humans we don't want to be wrong right we don't want to be hearing what we did wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: but if you tell me Carla, I love coming to your dinner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do well with sound or noise.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to sit in the corner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel offended, but I might feel offended if you said as Katie, or that come, just making up this conversation now.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you said, look Carla, it's always loaded your place.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't come anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: That I feel like is a personal attack.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not personally me, but you know, that usually people would take that as a personal attack.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's the way that we communicate our needs and also stating that it's something that we can do communally together.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the connection that we're missing again, like [SPEAKER_01]: It's not us versus them.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, let's hold hands together.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like during COVID time, I honestly think that was one of the best euros for narrative urgent individuals.

[SPEAKER_01]: We felt connected, but we didn't feel like we had to do all this like social interaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I'm sorry if it was a very intense period for a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: because of the tragedies, I think, for near-eurogent individuals, that feeling of were one were connected, but we don't have to hold hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're space.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was a really nice analogy for me of how we can work together.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've often said during lockdown was the first time in my life, I ever felt regulated or remembered feeling regulated.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was diagnosed at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, because of a lot of the stressors happening in life therapists like yours or, you know, kept recommending to me that I look into ADHD and I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[UNKNOWN]: I'm [SPEAKER_03]: I can't get off the couch, I'm not hyperactive, but like realizing the quiet, and you know, I think I also realized that I was what I like to call a gregarious introvert, which I think you know, a lot of people, I don't have a lot of nerve divergence feel this way, but like, I always thought I was couldn't be an introvert because I loved talking to people and I loved meeting people and I loved [SPEAKER_03]: you know, being out and about.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I figured I couldn't be an introvert.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't really realize that introversion doesn't mean that you're shy or that you are anti-social.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so there was that feeling of like, oh, I'm regulated.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like this, I wasn't probably wasn't even termed I hadn't learned before the pandemic, too.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the pandemic offered us a lot of opportunities [SPEAKER_01]: I just enjoy that space, you know, like I enjoyed the quiet and the space and being able to do my own thing and not feel the pressure or I need to do it with somebody that I really enjoyed and I took from that, okay, I'm going to continue going to the movies by myself or going to a restaurant and having a meal by myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I feel a lot less anxious.

[SPEAKER_01]: One tip that I would say is just take a book with because as soon as we know this over and out in the wild in society, we're like, oh, should I be on my phone?

[SPEAKER_01]: pretend that my date didn't arrive or whatever, but now if you have a book there, you don't look peculiar.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are there any myths about autism, especially in adolescents that you feel like you see a lot or that you wish you could dispel?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so many.

[SPEAKER_01]: The one that always pops up for me is the friendship one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see most of my clients are lonely and most of them really want to have friends that accept them for who they are.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just want to be themselves with another person and just like parallel play and feel like they're not being looked at under a magnifying glass.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's one of the biggest ones and then [SPEAKER_01]: Also, just the, yeah, I mean, the social part is definitely one thing, but another thing is that we often believe that autistic individuals have these.

[SPEAKER_01]: Very intense statements or thought processes and it's because they believe in that and that's it and they don't think about your point of view, but it's it's actually because they have the sense of justice and they know that this is the right thing to do and they know that they're going to get in trouble or not be looked at.

[SPEAKER_01]: the right way, for example, or somebody is going to think that they're two intents.

[SPEAKER_01]: They know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We know this, but it's something that we can't help, and it's not to hurt or to be the contrary and [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're like autistic individuals really do just it's like something that they can't not state or say my ex is autistic and he would say things and he would just that is the truth and somebody would be like, [SPEAKER_01]: very much a feeling of being misunderstood a lot of times and that pushes people away so like it has the cycle of okay so then I'm not going to have friends and I'm being learned you know gonna be learnedly and something wrong with me and then it's quite a negative snow [SPEAKER_01]: try not to get offended, but to stick individuals because they're not trying to hurt you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's how their brain works.

[SPEAKER_01]: They want to get this point across for the greater good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's like, it's just factual.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just need you to know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not such a big deal, you know, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we can move on and speak about our interest and really just get to know each other and stick yours about our amazing brains.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, very well, but and I think also have some curiosity to that's one of the things that I find really frustrating for just now in working with a lot of neurodivergent young people.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like you said, it's really just about having curiosity about who they are and why they think the way they think and I'm sort of reflected on my own rigid thinking a lot of my rigid thinking shows up in curiosity where it's like, I don't I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I like have this dogged pursuit of the answer in a way that irritates a lot of people where they feel like, well, why doesn't matter and I'm like, I don't know it just does.

[SPEAKER_01]: does.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it does.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's something you can't get over it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if somebody says something that is inconsistent and I've been in so many arguments about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if my professor says one thing and then the next day she contradicts what she said, I have to point it out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have to I can't be quiet and just say, oh yeah, water from a dog's back or whatever that's saying is [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so tell me a little bit more about aims.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I love, I love your website, which has all the different organizations that you're part of.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, if the signs weren't there all along, I love that where it's like, you know, the hardest question to ask somebody with ADHD is like, so what do you do when you're like, oh god.

[SPEAKER_03]: So how did you get part of Ames?

[SPEAKER_03]: Is that how you felt metal and family are now?

[SPEAKER_03]: They approached you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that actually, they did get me through Ames' levels.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ames' levels, the initial company that I started with the network, we placed therapists to live with families.

[SPEAKER_01]: mainly of autistic kids, neurodivergent kids in general.

[SPEAKER_01]: We still do that, but that's not my main focus.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's kind of running in the background.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have our families all over and they've got their old pairs and therapists living with them, which is really nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did my [SPEAKER_01]: Masters thesis actually on the efficacy of having a therapist in the house and I mean, as you can imagine, it's really positive as a positive experience for parents to have somebody there that can just take or give them some respite, which I think parents really need.

[SPEAKER_01]: and just a moment to not worry, just go on a date night.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that went really well.

[SPEAKER_01]: But as a true ADHD, I wanted to do so many more things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I do quite a lot of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I am a clinical lead for three startups, where I help with the direction, the clinical direction, and just kind of the framework, the psychological framework of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am a therapist, I do one on one, [SPEAKER_01]: ADHD woman groups as well with ADHD doers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's an Instagram page that I work with.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then what else did I do my PhD?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm learning Portuguese.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a few, there are a few things that I'm missing, but I think it's that's I found that if I don't have all these different projects that I will.

[SPEAKER_01]: create drama in my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I did when I was younger.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now I'm so busy with all of these projects and I'm so stimulated that I love it and you know contrary to what my psychiatrist said, he said, Carla, be a very creative, but are you going to actually create something?

[SPEAKER_01]: I do, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: He's actually a nice guy, but you know, he was trying to push me to get my PhD done.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that we definitely have that sweet spot as ADHDers, where we tend to overstemulate ourselves or understemulate when we're overwhelmed.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a sweet spot where it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that I have enough projects right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've got like five big things that I'm working on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm doing Muitai and like rock climbing and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that is enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a feeling and I know as a scientist that should have been saying this, but it's not a scientific fact.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just I feel like I shouldn't add anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if I take away anything that I'm going to be bored.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm at that sweet spot right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: each person's sweet spot finding those passion projects so that it's not just a to five work that we have to do unfortunately sometimes for money but it is like okay I'm doing my own projects.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm creating and being creative and passionate about something and I'm starting something new hobby hopping.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that a bad thing?

[SPEAKER_01]: I've done so many things in my life and it's because I do it for [SPEAKER_01]: buy the gear and then I sell it and then I do something else, fine.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Don't question the process.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I've come to come to learn, which is yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know I feel that most at tax time when my husband has his one W2 and I have like 18 W2.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's from [SPEAKER_03]: all the different business ventures and income streams and all the different projects that I'm working on.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, though, that's how it works for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I like that idea of that sweet spot, because that's another thing I've often said.

[SPEAKER_03]: One of the most difficult things for me about having ADHD is knowing and understanding when to say no to myself, because I will always want to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I will always, as I'm driving home, I'll look and just be like, oh, I want to, [SPEAKER_03]: become a librarian.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go beat and do that, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or my big one is I desperately want a volunteer for the local fire department.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, no, that's not something you have time for.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I looked, you know, I'll just sort of go down these mental, you know, diversions.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it's like, for me, I found the joy in just like day dreaming about the things without actually following through.

[SPEAKER_03]: But sometimes I'll say like saying note of myself is really really hard and people won't understand what I'm talking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, well, you don't like chase after every thought as it happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and now imagine Katie, I'm working with clients and I've got about eight clients a day and then they would tell me about all these amazing hobbies and I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: I can start candle making, like, and then I have to really tell myself, like, pause, reflect, you know, like, take a breath, maybe just be happy for your client that they found something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, but it is, it's, you know, a different exposes us to a lot of ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's one of the beauties of HDS.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are so, [SPEAKER_01]: creative and curious, you know, we want to learn about everything if somebody asked me once, I should, there was the other day that asked me, do you want to live, would you live forever?

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would want to live another lifetime at least to get everything more things done.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what makes us also quite fun in our friendship circles.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well said.

[SPEAKER_03]: Great, well, thank you for coming back and sharing with me a little bit more and is there anything you're working on so the new year or anything we haven't covered.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for the new year, I am doing the ADHD woman groups with ADHD doers and I really need to I'm starting next week actually for a festive anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, you know, festive period anxiety that we all have, I feel like all these expectations and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm also doing, I really need to focus on my studies because that's the one thing that I'm not so excited about.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think for now, I'm just doing, I'm trying to carve out time and that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just if I can give one strategy, it is to have like these carved out times for passion projects and then carved out times for the things that we just absolutely need to do because otherwise we'll always go and lean towards the passion projects.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, no, I think we covered everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been an [SPEAKER_03]: Great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you have a link or anything, I will put that in the show notes for the women's group.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's a virtual group?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a virtual group.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we did weekly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's wonderful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[UNKNOWN]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they can, I mean, they can, I'll send you my Instagram page.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you might have it already.

[SPEAKER_01]: Therapy.near.org and then they can just contact me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's just a fun group for women.

[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that sounds great.

[SPEAKER_03]: So go follow Carla and sign up for the women's group through ADHD.

[SPEAKER_03]: Doers, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, take care.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_03]: There you have it!

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of The Women and ADHD Podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and ADHD.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and ADHD.com slash podcast guest and you can find that link in the episode showdowns.

[SPEAKER_03]: Also, you know we ADHD are a great feedback.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener.

[SPEAKER_03]: Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or audible.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five-star rating.

[SPEAKER_03]: Or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they may be struggling and they don't even know why.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage.

[SPEAKER_03]: Take care until then!