Hello, everybody.

Hello, darlings.

This is a special episode for me.

And a very special episode for me because Darling Bishes.

This is a drama Darling YBT collaborative v Hello.

Welcome in, everybody, Welcome in.

Hi Melissa, Hi Amy.

How are you, my love?

I'm great.

I'm so happy that we get to come together at the end of the valley.

Well poised to go into three episodes of the reunion, but to kick off Reunion one with you is going to be really exciting for me, really exciting for the Darling listeners because you always have you know.

I mean, you've got a therapeutic, incredible take on all of this and there's so much happening, so I cannot wait to talk to you about it.

Yeah.

Same.

I love podcasting with you.

And it's amazing how many they call themselves the Darling Bishes when there's you know, crossover between the two names, so you know, because I don't give names or anything like that, but I've picked up on that's what people say.

So for all the Darling Bishes listening, Hello.

Thanks you see, we love you.

Thank you for being here.

Yeah, thank you for being here.

As I put on a little gloss It's eight thirty my time, so I'm ready to rock.

You really are.

When you said you could do it that early, I was like, oh God, bless Amy you are.

I couldn't do this that early.

Really, No, I'm not a morning cow.

Okay, no, no, Well, let's well before we get into the Valley Reunion Part one.

I know that you watched Watch What Happens Live last night.

I did not.

There was just I don't know, like maybe a quarter of the cast members on from next Gen.

So please fill me in on what happened, because I want to hear.

I love that show.

Okay, Honestly, I was talking with Ryan Bailey about this.

I love the show too, and I actually thought it was better than Ronie.

I thought it was better than like the New whatever.

I think whatever.

These kids, there's just like real authentic relationships, and that's what I miss about Housewives.

That's just something that I've been thinking about why I think that I liked it better because it seems more genuine, more real, as opposed to these women who are now cast and it's you have to wear all these it's just turned into a different animal.

But anyway, so.

Gia, Judice, Emira, and Brooks Marx were on and they revealed a couple of interesting things.

Number one is that Charlie has left the Group Chat and seems like he has left the show.

Wow, did he buy any chance join the boys chat in place of Danny over on the Valley?

Well, can I tell you?

I joke that Charlie is the Jacks of next Gen?

So I'm sure he was welcomed into the group Chat with open arms.

Well that's open, Yeah, that would be amazing.

Yeap.

Jackson is ready to invite anybody in there.

Well that's a bummer.

So he's obviously if they come back for a second season, he won't be there, and that's gonna be a real problem because he was definitely I mean, you need these villains, so what are they gonna do?

You know?

Yikes?

You know, listen, I'm happy to see him go because I just felt he was just the worst.

And I have no I'm allergic to men like him, if I'm being honest, So for me, I'm happy.

But at the same time, you're right, it's like, well, he was the source of all the drama, So what's gonna happen?

But I guess we shall find out.

There's always a new budding villain somewhere.

Oh, especially in New York City.

Honey, there diamond doesn't right.

So and then the other thing that was really interesting is that Gia was asked, you know, Andy loves to ask the shady questions, and he asked you to rank the New Jersey Housewives Melissa.

Gorga, Dolo, jen Aiden.

Jen Aiden, thank you, Dina Manzo okay, And Gia's response was Dolo first, okay, then jen Aiden, which I was like, girl, please, girl bye.

Jen Aiden is number.

Two, stop that right now, okay, and then.

Dina was three and Melissa Gorgo was last.

And it's funny because when I saw it, they someone had posted all of their Instagram followings in response to Gia's question, and Melissa Gorga has the most followers.

It's like, Melissa Gorga has the most and then Dolo jen Aiden has the least, or maybe Dina does, but either way, you know, it.

Was clearly a very shady response.

But it's like, hey, you know she had been indoctrinated.

A safe question to know a safe answer, because you know that she's going to put it like that.

You know, I just find listen jen Aiden has been on the rocks quite a bit lately, even when she's off the show, I mean, even when they're not filming.

So perhaps Gia's trying to look for a little collab with Jen Aid and bring her on next Gen as a friend.

Of can I tell you?

Andy asked the group who they would love to see, like, are there other Housewives kids you'd love to see on the show?

And je immediately said my sister, and then Brookes Marx immediately was like, yeah, Chloe, who was in the audience, his sister Chloe.

And I was like, you know, listen, I give it up to these people for supporting their family and having their back.

But I'm like, and you know, I have to say, that would be fascinating, right It would be like a Real Housewives Kids two point ero very I don't know.

I can't say I would hate it, but I just thought.

And then Andy joked that they were all nepo babies.

All nepo babies.

Yeah, yeah, it would be the end of the Judaice Girls' relationships from here on out.

They would, yeah, because that's what happens when any Judice Gorga family member gets on a reality show.

They split.

So I mean, I would be very concerned that the girls would, you know, succumb to the the beckonings of the dark side of reality television, where you know, that becomes more important than their relationships.

So I would be very concerned about that, and I would say, no, don't.

Also, well, Arianna wasn't on last night, but I wonder how she would feel if Brielle was on.

And I'm also been curious about how Brielle has been feeling not being a part of it.

But it does make sense that she's not.

I mean, like Arianna had more of a story to tell and more of more going on.

You know, she was willing to move to New York.

You know, I don't know if that was part of her journey before the show presented itself, but and her relationship with Riley and such.

So, but I did love the books on the show, and Chloe was on quite a bit, so she was already Chloe.

But Meredith and Seth, it was like you really got to see so much of their family behind the scenes, which is interesting because I couldn't stand Meredith on Salt Lake City, but on Next Gen, I'm like, oh, I love her.

Oh that's so interesting.

Yeah, I love death too.

I feel like on Salt Lake City, she's so histrionic, you know, there's so much drama.

But on Next Gen, you know, it's like she's quirky, but she's such a wonderful mother and she's so her and Brooks are so close, and you know, I know that people say Brooks isn't the most dynamic television, but I just feel he's such a funny, wonderful person and I love like because he's not super outspoken.

You know, they'll do the thought bubbles with Meredith inside being like di engage and it's so funny.

Really gold.

Yeah, it's gold, good as gold.

Okay, well, shall we move on to the valley?

Let's okay?

Yes?

All right?

So Reunion Part one, right out of the gates, you know, we get a little bit of a dip in with Jackson Brittany, and then of course at the end, so you know, obviously they're gonna bookend this entire first episode.

So how do you feel about talking about Jackson Britney first with what they share in the beginning and then what happened at the end.

Are you cool?

Just yeah?

Absolutely?

Okay, Well, with this whole vasectomy thing.

I mean the immediate moment when britt was.

Like, he got a hay have twenty baby bumbles, if he builds a night for sick the bike get get gig, which.

It's like, Oh my gosh, it's so funny because on my show recently we were talking about like what's going to happen to Jacks if he's not on the show, Like what do you predict?

And I was like, well, he'll have like ten kids from ten different women.

And it didn't occur to me once that he could actually get a asectomy.

So I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a great idea.

So I was happy to hear that he's considering it.

I don't know if it's too late for that.

But and then for Brittany to really say that she would touch that dirty dick La Tabe foot pole.

But my jaw dropped Melissa when Jack said, well, you said you wanted to hook up one last time at the aquarium four months ago, and the way that she responded made me think that she did allude to that.

It did sound like she was like.

Well, I didn't know what was going on then, but a night.

I just thought, oh, Brittany, because but it shows that she really did, probably even still to this day, struggle, you know, with wanting to be with him.

Do you think that she, like at four months ago perhaps, And is it a normal thing to you know, reach out to your ex that you're getting divorced from to have a little something.

Uh yeah.

So here's the thing, Jacks, I am so angry.

I could spit nails about him at this whole reunion.

He did that to purposely like distract.

Look away, look away, look away, look at her.

And what I want to say on Brittany's behalf is that's absolutely a normal thing.

How many people listening to this have had sex with an X because you know, when there's divorce or breakups, those feelings don't just go away.

Also, people have sexual desires and you know all those other things.

They have a child together.

So he weaponized what is a very normal Listen, I think it was Brittany in a bad moment where she clearly probably again he reponized her being drunk, which you know he loves to do that.

Because he can't drink.

So therefore now he's the alcohol police, except with himself.

Could you know, whatever, that's a whole other thing.

But I think that.

In my perspective, it's yeah, I mean it's very normal to want to believe that the father of your child could maybe be a better person.

Or if they have the aquarium, you're at the aquarium with Cruse.

I imagine it's not like they were just meeting up there, so she's probably feeling, you know, a sense of family.

And I mean it does make sense.

You took the words out of my mouth because imagine that right you're you're Jax has been terrorizing her for months, but they're at this aquarium, probably with Cruise.

I bet her ovaries are swooning, and you know, she probably thought, well what if, or you know, maybe this could work.

And again, you know, sometimes just people have physical needs.

So I think it was a very normal, understandable thing.

I'm grateful now that she is completely out of that because what Jack's I believe wants to do is bait her and then use those things against her continually.

So I think for her own good, she needs to step out of that dynamic permanently.

Yeah.

Absolutely, it was very It was nice to hear actual facts about where they are with their divorce, with the settlement, and quite frankly great to see Brittany expose him continuously with having she will have she has full custody now and after the divorce is final, she will allow Jax to see Cruise if he passes the drug test Wednesdays and every other weekend.

And then I love that.

She's like, and if I get my nails done and I need a quick bitey sitter, if I need the good help good to get some bore sets for mahiasid pillows, it's an outleated do they.

I was like, oh my god, I thought, actually in that moment, Melissa, I was a little worried because I thought, the second that you start using him as like a babysitter, things are gonna get tricky.

Am I wrong about that?

Like I feel like with Jack's in a situation like that, you have to have very strong structure that you can't you know, like you know sway from Because the second that she's like, can I just drop a ball for real quick, well I'll get some jails, He's gonna that's gonna cause some problem.

He's gonna be like, well I would there was that wasn't part of the thing.

I'm going over here, And then she's gonna get mad at him because he has plans, he doesn't want to see the kid.

So what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I tend to agree with you.

When I heard that, what I thought was that was Britney.

So Brittany is awake and she is reading him for filth, which I love.

But I think that was her anger coming out.

I think she's trying to assert dominance over Jacks because she has felt so dominated, so abused.

For so long.

It was one of those things that in my clinical brain said, Oh, she's saying that because she wants people to know that she has control over this, and she wants Jax to know, yeah, he has control over it.

But I agree with you in terms of with Jacks, it has to be very You have to have very secure boundaries, like you know, like the Pentagon.

I mean, they have to be in a regular situation.

Would that be, of course a beautiful thing to be able to just say, hey, I'm running an error.

Can you take him for a little bit?

Right?

In a perfect world, that should be what you can do.

But I agree with you, the Jacks that we all saw on this reunion is not capable of not weaponizing that holding it against her.

You know, all of that other stuff.

So if I were her therapist, which I'm not, I would encourage her to stick to the scheduling until Jack's his behavior has told us that he's actually making some changes, because right now, that's not what it's telling us.

Right, yeah, it's so can we talk about the drug testing and stuff.

Well, first, it was interesting to find out that he had like one hundred and fifty nine days or something sober, well sober quote.

Because he can't he said, and I quote, I can't and won't stop smoking weed.

Which listen, you know, it's I never want to judge how people move through their sobriety, but I can speak on Jackson particular, and it's just another it's just another way for him to avoid, you know, and deflect and not get to the root of his stuff.

So to me, I don't think that's great.

But you know, and the California sober is been so normalized that now people who are trying to get sober see that as a strong option, and I think that is not a good thing.

I mean, I hate to say it, as much as I support THCHC and the least supation of it.

When you know, and everyone there, it seemed like on the couch they were like, oh, we were fine.

Even Janet was like, that's okay with us, And I just thought, but it's really not not for someone like him, And it's not a negotiation.

You either are you aren't.

And when you say sober, I mean and that is considered a drug that alters your your mind so.

You can't spell like in person.

Like it's just weird to me when people claim sobriety but are completely you know, in bibing in THHC on a regular basis, because I just don't see that being sober, right.

And so here's the thing I'll say.

I worked in an impatient rehab for drugs and alcohol, and I have kind of it all in terms of people's sobriety journey and things like that.

What I can say is that when you are using anything to detach or to prevent yourself from feeling something, it is impossible and it's not even necessarily a substance.

People can use shopping, they can you know, people get sober and then they overutilize shopping or they overutilize sex.

And that's why people say in the program not to date for the first twelve months because it's really easy to replace those addictive processes, right, Right, So with Jack's I think that this in particular, I can't speak of how it works for everyone but for him, because Brittany was really clear saying his behavior hasn't changed at all, well because he's not getting to the root of things, because he's still self medicating in ways that are now more quote unquote socially acceptable.

Right because everyone was screaming at him about the alcohol and the cocaine, but now people are like, oh, yeah, you can smoke weeds.

So of course he's like, well, yeah, so that's what I'm going to do.

Yeah.

For him, I just I don't see this being a healthy choice, and I think it keeps him really sick and really stuck.

But I think you take one, if you take steroids, will that show up in your drug tests?

You have to do specific testing for steroids, because what Brittany was talking about is when you move from impatient to outpatient, it's like you decrease the level of care and you have an outpatient counselor who's part of the recovery process is weekly drug testing.

So it's not like Jacks's volunteering for that that's part of his program.

I guarantee it.

And those tests will only test for they'll test for all the you know drugs, they'll do a whole panel, But steroids is something completely different.

Okay, And I'm glad that it was brought up because Jax.

Did anyone hear him say that he gained thirty pounds?

Oh, that's right.

He yeah, he was talking to Janet about that at the brain.

That's right.

And does Jacks look thirty pounds heavier or does he look a little bit more muscled?

That's steroids allegedly allegedly, Okay, people who utilize steroids will gain intense amounts of muscle, weight and bulk.

And if he had really gained thirty pounds, he would have looked a lot different.

So I think here's my thing with Jack's he told on himself throughout this whole reunion.

You just have to have the right ear.

Wow, Yes, he told on himself inadvertently and deliberately, like he did come lean on a lot of stuff.

He's like, well, I'm not gonna argue with that.

That is pretty true, you know, But then the other things that he's completely lying about.

You're right, he showed his hand, but I was actually pretty not shocked, but it took me a back.

I was taken aback with the steroids situation because I thought, well, here, Brittany, I didn't know she was going to turn in that direction when she was like, well, you know why you know here you are?

You're you're supposed to be sober.

Your your attitude and personality are so sporadic, so it's not the drugs and alcohol.

Why are you still just as crazy as before?

Are you taking steroids?

So when she said are you taking steroids?

I thought she was going to say, so, are you really sober?

But then I was like, but she's been doing the drug test with him, so that is It sounds like an answer, but I didn't know.

So steroids obviously are they composed of like a lot of testosterone, So then that makes you have it triggers some Can you speak on that?

Yeah, I can speak on this definitely.

So steroids, there is there are different just like with medications, there's different applications.

So you can do like TRT, like hormone replacement for men, if you have low testosterone, that is totally appropriate.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But so if we're talking about legal things that's really well managed by a doctor, and you're not going to be getting human growth hormone and all these other wacky things.

Now there's a whole other part of the steroid community where it's ordering things from Mexico, putting things in your body that have permanent impacts on mental and physical health, which, unfortunately, there are a lot of people who make those choices because they care more about how they look than about how they feel, behave, or really about their health.

And so I think what she's talking about with Jack's is not the legal part that we're talking about.

I would assume that it's some of these other really intense steroids that absolutely have psychological impacts in terms of they can make you feel rage.

You know, if anyone who's listening to this who's ever done hormone replacement.

I had to do it when you know, after surviving ovarian cancer and I felt bipolar, like I felt like I had bipolar disorder.

It was such a swing in my mental health because my hormones were completely off.

And so I don't think this gets talked enough, talked about enough.

Is that a lot of men who are on these medications I think their mental health really suffers, but I don't know that they care because they look good and that's xikes.

Yeah, and when they are displaying these fits of rage or anger, it probably makes them feel, you know, somewhat confident, powerful in control, and you know, manly if for lack of better words.

And so do you think because when he came out of rehab, the rehabit he said he went to that.

We know he went to the mental health facility.

We understand that he relapsed the first week.

He tried to say two weeks.

Isn't that just perfect?

How like people lie, They're like, he's gonna admit it, but not what it really is.

But on his terms, yeah, he had three dice.

You about three dice?

You were like eighty.

And that was so obvious because remember that dinner that that like boys dinner he went to.

And then he was immediately after I think Danny or Jesse, I don't even remember who, but he was attacking the men at the table and he was it was like the same Jackson.

I just thought, well, he's back at it.

I mean, he's clearly, you know, allegedly on something.

At this point, he is not sober.

It looked so obvious.

But then now that Britney said steroids, I'm like, okay, I wonder if that was what we were seeing.

Yeah, And here's the thing.

I don't think Jackson needs steroids to continue to behave like an ass.

I think that's just part of his personnel, if I'm being honest, Because sometimes what happens is people get sober, but sobriety is a transformative process of internal change, personal growth that requires accountability, rigorous honesty, and the change can be seen in behaviors.

When you see someone come in sick and then they get sober, they're usually a completely different person.

And so when you have someone take the substance away and they're still having those same personality characteristics, well, that indicates that we're kind of encroaching on another issue.

Here, Okay, right, which is it anger?

Because he keeps saying it's well, I mean it kind of sounds like you're agreeing with Jack's Melissa.

It's not the drugs or the alcohol, it's something else.

No, I'm joking, I'm joking, But what I mean is it?

So he keeps saying anger, anger, But obviously it's the pain and the trauma and all the issues that he's had that he hasn't dealt with.

But what is it?

What is what are the underlying issues?

Okay, well you can't.

Be really careful here, No, So here's what I said.

Narcissistic behavior he said, he said bipolar, hasn't he hasn't he said he's bipolar?

Or have I said that?

Okay, that's not okay.

So here's how I'm going to explain this.

Okay, when we look at personality disorders, we look at them on a spectrum.

Right, every personal live amy you included me, everyone, We have narcissistic traits and tendencies.

Everybody does, okay, But if you look at things on a continuum, over to the left is going to be less traits and tendencies, in the middle is going to be, you know, kind of statistically maybe where more people lie.

And then to the right is going to be people who have personality disorders, where there is a pervasive and persistent pattern of inflexible behaviors and tray that continue to create problems.

So let's give him sometimes airhorn for that explanation.

Yes, bish therapists.

So I have to be cautious about how I say this because you know, I'm not diagnosing Jack's.

I don't know him.

I can't make that, but what I can see is that and from my clinical experience, when you have people come into treatment and they take away the substances and the problems still exist, it's usually an underlying personality issue that needs to be addressed and focused on.

Anger is what's called a secondary emotion.

So Jax likes to focus on anger because it makes him feel powerful, and a lot of men fall in this bucket, right that anger can make people feel really powerful, and he doesn't want to give the only power he feels he has a way.

So, but anger is a secondary emotion in that it's a symptom and there's always under other stuff underneath, which can be guilt, shame, which you know, I'm sure Jacks has some of that.

It can be you know, depression, anxiety.

There's always something underneath that anger.

So the fact that he's over focusing on the symptom that he's most comfortable with tells me that he's not ready, that there's still some denial in minimization.

He's not quite ready to say okay.

You know, when people fully accept, you know that they have a disease.

To me, to kind of finish out the discussion about this piece, is that I think that to me, when I look at Jax's behaviors and the fact that he's still engaging in the same behaviors tells me that he still has a fair amount of denial and minimization that he's living under that perpetuates these same unhealthy behaviors.

What is Jack's rock bottom?

Well, the interesting thing I can tell you from working in impatient rehab is I have met people who their bottom doesn't come and they die.

Unfortunately, there are some people that something happens and it's their bottom.

So a bottom is subjective for every single person experiencing it.

Because you would think at this point that all of the stuff should have or could have been his rock bottom, but it clearly isn't because he hasn't made real change.

He's not ready to make real change.

So could it be getting fired from the show?

Maybe?

I don't know, because to me, it seems like the only thing that Jack's really cared about is being fired from the show.

He told on himself again at a point in the reunion where he said, well, I went to treatment because I wanted to keep my job.

He said.

Yeah, he was like, yeah, I went to treat.

He goes, I went to rehab because of Cruz and because the show made me do it.

Like, well, at least he does, no, But he.

Said the show first, and then he goes, oh yeah, and my son and my son and my son, and it's like, well, you just told on yourself again.

Yeah, yeah, he really all I think Jax cares about Jack's I think Jax cares about his image and his career more than he cares about anyone or anything.

And I just think he hasn't been able to be honest about that.

But his behaviors tell me that that's kind of how he's moving.

And I just I wonder if being kicked off the show could be a bottom for him, because that's the only thing he really cares about.

Well, getting you know, fired from vander palmp Rules was in fact the first bottom for him that made him spiral worse than ever before.

Because that's when Brittany was saying, you know, we really got the timeline here, which I thought was very important because this whole time I was thinking, you know, when he was in the valley and they had this house and you know, she's pregnant and they had a child, and it's COVID and here we're just I'm thinking, Wow, Jackson and Brittany are really doing well.

They're off camera, they're having this little life in suburbia.

And who would have thought, Remember we all were like, who would have thought Jacks would be the one to have like an actual relationship that's successful.

Remember when we were all saying that, and when we were watching scandall and all that happening.

But really what was actually going on was, you know, all the things that Brittany was saying, he started to, you know, lash out at her because he didn't have the job.

She was making the money, and he was, you know, essentially diminishing her and scolding her for that because of his resentment.

And it was a horrific scene and not at all what we imagined it was, or rather at least I did thinking the best.

And so that was a turning point when things got bad.

So now cut to Okay, he's fired from Van the Valley again.

He's not coming back, I mean, I imagine, and yet in the I don't think he will.

I think he's too much of a liability.

Is he really the most compelling part of the show.

I mean, perhaps, but there's also other things going on.

We can live without Jacks, yes, but remember when he said he was going to prolong the divorce until he found out if he was going to lose the job on the Valley so that he could get alimony.

Yes, that again, Like you know how you said he told, he told on himself so many times.

I mean, that's just a perfect example.

You can look at that one dimensionally and say, well, that's just an asshole thing to do.

But at the end of the day, it's so calculated and it's so narcissistic because and here I am trying to pretend like I'm a bish therapist, which I'm not.

But let me just let me try, Okay, let me get this try.

So what I'm seeing, and I'm not diagnosing, but what I'm seeing here is that he feels entitled to money because this is his show and she wouldn't be there if it weren't for him, So he's entitled to the money that she would make on that show because ultimately, when she goes on camera, I would say seventy five percent of it is going to be about him.

Whether he's on camera or not.

And he's not wrong.

But do I think he deserves alimony?

Absolutely not.

He can fuck straight off.

And I think it's really disgusting that he would even threaten her for that and play that hard.

And we saw it even when and they had that argument on camera earlier a few episodes ago.

It's so gross because when he is like, you know, going, he's trying to keep it together on that couch and being like, it's so hard, it's so hard.

I'm a person too, And I remember Andy being like looking at him, like what are we seeing?

Here?

Are we getting?

What are we getting?

You know, like we see any tears and we seeing anything?

And no, I mean it's just not there.

It's just not there.

He's just trying to put a lid on and he's trying to cork it.

He's doing the best he can.

He thinks he's doing the best he can in that situation.

He is, because he's just not showing what he's feeling, you know.

Anyway, that's my diagnosis.

Can I tell you, yeah, Oh my god, thank you so much, thank you.

No, I'm not kidding.

I fully agree with you, And to me, everything you said is accurate and to take it one step further is that it's another extension of he feels entitled to financially abuse Brittany.

He feels entitled to engage in financial abuse because because that's what it is.

It's an offshoot of continued financial abuse to say, this is my show, you got me fired, so now you're going to pay.

It's all in line with the other abuse of behaviors that he's been perpetuating on camera in front of people.

And my therapist brain is exploding because I'm like, how are we all just breezing past this?

Wow?

Is everyone just breezing past?

It's insane to me.

But you're right, he feels entitled to her in every way, shape and form, and that says everything you need.

To know about him.

And when she was making money and saving their ass, he was coming down on her for that.

So she makes money, he's angry, right, what if she didn't make money?

But what is what would have happened?

Well, don't you remember how many times Jax tried to hold it over Brittany that I'm the one who supports this family and I'm the one who pays for everything.

We've heard him say that.

So to your point, there's nothing that Brittany could have done to have pleased Jack's nothing that personality with you that is not someone who's just an active addiction or whatever.

That is a personality issue that is showing a pattern of inflexible and persistent, you know, issues over time.

And let me tell you what.

So all of these things that we're talking about, to the steroids, the entitlement, the financial abuse, these are all through through lines with a certain personality type with men.

And the reason that Jacks is doing this is because he has a teeny.

Tiny little ego.

Oh you were going to say, B B Yeah, I know, I know, I'm not, but the ego is teeny teeny tiny.

And you know, men who have these really small egos, they really need to do things to make themselves feel powerful and strong and so.

Everything that I'm like, when you say small ego, that's like blowing my mind because all we hear is, oh, he's got such a big ego.

He's got such a big ego.

So I don't This concept to me is completely new.

I don't even know what you're talking about.

What do you mean?

I mean, I know you were going to explain it, but I have to put my question in there, so the darling bushes, no, I'm on your side.

I don't know what she's talking about, and I don't know what she's gonna say.

Small ego.

Yeah, okay, here's why I say that it's very small because usually, you know, a big ego is consistent with some of Jack's behaviors, and we hear that a lot, but really in actuality and I'm kind of being sassy too.

You know, I'm not being my best clinical self.

But hey, we're here to do a fun podcast, and so you know, I'm not here to like be my best clinical self.

But the small ego is referring to that when men, when you perceive them to have a big ego, when you perceive them to that he people think that Jax thinks he's larger than life.

I actually think Jack's thinks very little of himself.

There are two groups of men in terms of when you see this ego stuff.

There are people and not just men, women too, and all people right, irrespective of sex or gender.

But when you see someone that has a big ego, there's either two ways that it goes.

Is that they do really have this kind of delusional belief that they have their grandiosity.

That's kind of the clinical term for it, that they have a sense of grandiosity that they are greater than other people.

But then there are people and I think Jack's into this bucket where they actually feel very small and they actually feel very you know, when Jack said something about Danny, he compared him to a serial killer.

I talked about that's defensive projection, meaning that's likely how Jack's feels about himself.

So in reality, Jack's I think, is doing all this stuff to make it seem big and you know, bold, But I think he's really just a very small, insecure person who needs to put other people down to make himself feel great.

I don't think he really believes that he is great.

Does that make sense, Yeah, yeah it does, And that's sad.

I could be wrong, but.

I just like, at the end of the day, you know all this, it's like you watch somebody for so many years and you think, Wow, he's finally going to go to rehab, even though I knew at that point it's not going to work because of the state that he was in when he was in rehab and how short of a time he was there.

Like, you know, I wasn't very hopeful, but I feel very very bad, you know, And there's a part of me which I know you probably I don't know if you feel the same way, but as a recapper of this show and watching these shows all these years, it's like, you know, I am guilty of like delighting in this villainous behavior for the sake of entertainment.

And it's just a gross feeling, because when you get down to the ugly parts, the really dark parts, and the truth of what's been going on, you want to disengage entirely, shut down your computer, your TV log off, and just be on your merry way because to be a part of the web of what's happening, and then to you know, talk so specifically about this human being who is an absolute mess, who has destroyed his own life, his his wife's life.

You know, at least at this point she will rebuild them, and I hope that he will too.

I'm concerned, and you worry about about Cruise, you know, their child, And it's just a weird, weird feeling, you know.

You know, I had I fully understand.

And Ryan Bailey when we podcasted, he said the same thing.

He said, it makes me feel uncomfortable to know that, you know, you think that someone you watch on TV can't possibly be like a really terrible person or in the use of Perth, right, we don't want to believe that, we want to believe that these people who we have have grown to kind of love are just flawed humans, right, And because that you can forgive, right, that you can move on from.

But fortunately Jax is an example of someone who everyone you know, that that Housewives drop of, we were all rooting for you, we were all rooting for you, and he is just incapable at this point of being who everybody.

Wants him to be.

And I understand that feeling of feeling duped, of feeling icky, because I just I totally understand it.

But I don't think anyone realized how significant it was until recently.

And so you know, you can only go with the information that you have at the moment.

But I do hope this is kind of an awakening for all of us, for Bravo, fans, for Bravo, because this isn't making people feel good, it's triggering people.

It's causing people a lot of trauma, survivors a lot of legitimate issues, and that's not what this thing we love so much is supposed to be.

So I understand where you're coming from.

If it had a happy ending or if we saw it going in a different direction, it would be a different story of how I'd be feeling, because it would be like, well, this is real life we're watching.

You know, this is an unexpected turn.

But look at what's happening and what a journey that could be.

But you know, at this point it's only darkness.

And really, at the end of the day, I wanted to ask you and then I want to take a break.

But when Jack said to in response to Britney saying like, but you knew we were filming and you still did these things, and Jack said, I'm not thinking about filming.

That's why our show is the real shit, because I put everything out there.

What is your take on that?

M he's full of it.

I think again, it's his way to try to make himself the lynchpin of the show because he didn't want to get fired.

It was completely manipulative.

Yeah, okay, I was vacillating, Honestly, sure I was aiming.

Can I say, to your defense and everyone listening to this, is that empathetic humans want to believe the best in other people.

I certainly do.

Right, that's my job as a therapist to be a cheerleader, to believe the best in these people who are trying their best.

But unfortunately there are just some people who are going to disappoint you.

And as an empathetic person, that is really disappointing.

Yeah.

Well, when he said that, I was like, Okay, just like you said, that was a great pitch to Bravo.

Yeah, perfect pitch, a perfect log line for why he should still be on the show and why this is the greatest reality show right now on Bravo.

And it is because of him and the others, but mostly because of his relationship with Jackson Brittany, because it's so polarizing, because it's so compelling, because it's so destructive and you can't take your eyes off the car crash, right.

But I also was like, he's also so delusional that he's coming into these shoots and he's not even thinking about the cameras.

Yeah, he is just showing up before he goes to rehab, and he's like, you know, trying to take some of his stuff or he's like, you know, he's doing this all with actual, genuine authenticity, regardless of the cameras being there.

So it's kind of like horror.

Yeah, so it's a little bit of both.

It's a little bit of both, right.

Well, because also it's like imagine, you know, well, now we know what happened, but if he's willing to do that when cameras are up, what is he willing to do when cameras are down?

I mean, that's her and I'm glad that, Brittany.

Do you okay, Well, I don't think she's telling us everything, obviously, do you.

I don't either, No, because I've had the honor of or with and treating survivors of domestic violence and abuse, and there I would guarantee our secrets buried under there that yes, I would guarantee that that's not all that has happened.

I was proud of her that she even shared what happened that day, you know, when she went through and it was really brave, and the things that he said to her, the things that he did, the way he acted.

Really truly it's amazing how what a strong person she is and what a good person that she is.

And she has her her issues too, you know, I mean she signed up for this and thought she could change this guy.

And that's that.

But all right, well, are you okay if we take a break and then come back and talk about other people?

Yes, okay, we'll be right back.

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Okay, we're back talking the valley.

So it's me Amy Phillips from Drama Darling and obviously.

And it's your besch therapist Melissa Reich.

Yay, Well, just to cleanse the palette.

It was really nice to have us have them tell the story of you know, fertility journeys, welcoming babies, the pregnancy, you know, having two goals on the couches being pregnant, Kristin and Nia.

It was really nice to see and I love what they shared.

Me too, And you know, it really warmed my heart because so many women have fertility issues.

You know, I lost my ability to have children after overary and cancer.

And I just love when it's a discussion, it's a true, honest, raw discussion, because I think it makes a lot of women feel seen and validated and heard.

And it also brings me.

So it's like the only part of the valley that brings joy, right, seeing these two people expand their families in ways that they've been wanting to do, and you know, it's just such a much needed happy sorbet to this very dark, very intense show.

I'm so glad that they dropped into that and really let us sit with that for a while, and because we really that is you know, what is this show is about, with expanding families, making families beyond working at sir, even though you know, we didn't know Nia and Danny, but it was just really really great to see.

And I also love that Kristen just popped off at the very beginning and just put it out there and apologize to Janet.

You know, I have to say, I thought, this is the Kristen that I love, right, this is the empathic Kristen who does take ownership and accountability and realizes that you know, I call Kristin like a misguided empathic avenger right when her That's what I call her.

When her friends are hurt, she'll like put on this avenger costume and then try to come to their rescue.

But in the process she just acts like such an asshole, and then she becomes part of the problem, right, but it comes from this really good place.

So I think that kristin getting ready to become a mother, is starting to understand and grow right, She's growing up and starting to understand that, Okay, I can't just say whatever the heck I want when I'm angry, and I have to own that this was a wacky thing to say.

But my the thing I was most oppressed about is that how Janet was very receptive to it, which I was, Yeah, that's very interesting.

That was shocking.

Yes, I mean they both surprised us.

I mean they'll probably get into it later and yeah, but but at least off the bat, it was nice to see them do that.

It really was.

What about Michelle and Jesse and God, you know, to go from Jack's and then to head on over to this next junior so disheartening.

I was so proud of the women on this show.

Britney standing up to Jackson in front of the entire world, Michelle standing up to Jesse and telling her freaking side in front of the entire world.

He couldn't even argue with her truth, he really she tried, and then he had to just sit back.

That's right, that's right, which I loved.

I loved that Michelle and Brittany just ate up these men and they were like, we're not keeping your secrets anymore.

This is and both of them had to sheepishly like at first they'd be like, no, that didn't happen, and then they'd be.

Like, okay, fine, it did right, And.

It's like, so what bothered me with Jesse because it seemed like at the last episode that he was like vulnerably taking accountability.

But what I found so fascinating is that Michelle really called Jesse on how he uses crying to manipulate, and I was like, she is a thousand percent right.

And you know how I know that she's right is he does this same old stick song and dance of crying and saying I lay down my sword, but he's engaging in the same behaviors.

So when you are claiming that you're making changes but it's just words and you're not actually changing behavior, that's a sure sign that it's manipulation.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

He even tags these these crying statements with a giveaway, which is like I'm just so tired.

It's like it's all about you again, you know, and she's like, yeah, I'm tired too.

And you know, I loved Janet said one thing that I just thought was so perfect.

She was like, Wow, those tears dried up really quickly, you know, And that is true.

Like every single time we've seen him kind of break down to Michelle to just like lay prostrate and just be like, have what you will?

I surrender, you know.

You know, the second that she calls him out on that, those tears go away and he's immediately back on defense mode.

They were never real it is.

It's so true, the fact that he manipulates with these tears.

I've never believed it for one second, to be honest with you, not once, because I know someone like that.

I think we all do, and I think we all know several people like that.

But my gosh, I loved it.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's you know, and here's the thing.

Jesse knows how to women, so as I just talked about, when women see a man cry and feign vulnerability, when you're an empathic, loving person, you're gonna want to believe it or think the best of someone.

But I think it's very clear that it's literally all manipulation because he's doing the same thing over and over.

And you know, the same thing with Jax is when he was like he was like putting his thumb up to his eye and it's like, there's no tears, there's no tears there.

But Jesse actually is able to squeak out some real tears.

It's just like when he's done performing, he shuts them off.

Because that's I don't know if anyone knows, that's not how tears work, but it isn't.

It really isn't.

How about when he was like, you're you're weaponizing our daughter read the comments online and and he was like, ah, it's not about the commenters.

I was like, tell me that you have no credibility without telling me that you have no credibility.

Right when he put that out, I was like, bro, you just completely like derailed.

Yeah, yeah, derailed your point and let us know that you're a complete moron.

And section Frank Dremmen too.

Too.

Oh what should we name Jesse?

He named him.

Uh, we'll find another like pseudonym for him, but yes, And I think that's why Jesse and Jack's they get along so well because their very similar personalities just acted out a little bit differently, Yeah, same bs underlying it.

Though, absolutely, and the whole issue with Michelle's dying mother.

Oh my god, So did you catch that?

They said they hired a therapist to talk about mortality with Isabella, which I of course Jesse tried to say he did it, and then Michelle was like, know, we did it, we did, we did, we did.

What did you think about, Honey, them hiring a behavioral therapist to talk about mortality.

I thought it was brilliant because what I've talked about on my podcast is that that kids are empathic, intuitive creatures.

They can't they understand things on a level that sometimes I think adults have completely checked themselves out from right.

And so I believe that Isabella had more of an idea in understanding of what was going on.

But the problem is what kids do is they have magical thinking that makes them believe that they are the problem.

And so what I loved about them doing that is kids need to have adults explain to them very tough things because their brains physically cannot process it.

They don't have the cognitive capacities.

They're brains aren't formed enough, you know, until basically twenty five, and even some research studies suggest for neurodivergent people it's closer to thirty when we have full brain development.

So when you're looking at a yeah, when you're looking at a small child, she is going to sense the tension and.

But just believe that it's her.

So my hope and my thought is that hiring this person to talk about it helped Isabella immensely, which makes my soul sing because she's ultimately the one in this who's getting hurt the most.

But they did note that the therapist said that she did need to see Michelle's mother and that Jesse needed to give Michelle grace, which of course did not happen, surprise, surprise.

It was really great to hear Michelle's side and to actually hear what was really going on.

This reunion was so important for the healing of both Brittany and Michelle.

I feel like.

I fully agree it was the first time that they were able to have people hear them, validate them, see them, understand them, and support them.

Because these two men have gas lit for probably their whole relationship that they were the problems.

Yeah, so it made me super happy.

And also there was a chorus of people on those couches going no, we saw the text.

No, we saw the text.

Now we know, we know, we know what the truth is.

Okay.

Now.

The only thing that Jesse has going for him in these moments is that he can make a joke, which is that he's representing himself and he's like, I've watched Suits three times, which was very funny.

And that's the difference between Jackson and Jesse that I always argue that Jesse is just more charismatic.

He knows how to smooth schmooze a little bit more than jack does.

Jackson is just like done with schmoozing, He's done with pretending.

Jesse still has that schmooze part of him that you know, it's it's part of a greater pattern that's concerning, But in the moment, I think it's hilarious.

It's part of a greater pattern that's concerning.

But it's funny as hell in the moment.

Oh my gosh, the way of therapist mind works is really funny.

That's funny.

Well, I mean, I completely agree.

Also, Jackson has never had any other job, you know, so it's like Jesse has been well, I guess he's kind of been working as an adult as a real estate agent right up until who knows, like COVID or whatever.

So he does have that wheel and deal.

Let's throw some humor on it to close the deal.

Oh this is this needs a new roof and all new electrical But hey, listen, you know every house has its thing, right, you know he's going to have that humor on it.

So I, you know, I did not realize that that house was rented.

I don't know.

I guess I just because the way that Jesse talked about that house near the Chateau Marmont and that's such a great location all this stuff.

I thought that that was the home that they owned.

So to find out that it's a rental when Andy's like, there are no assets, why is this so difficult?

I was like, but the house?

And then I was like, oh my gosh, did you realize it was rented?

No?

Absolutely not.

And I think that that was a wild realization for me because I was like, wait, so if there's right, if there's no assets, how it just confused me greatly and it also to me made it more significant that Jesse.

So Jesse wasn't willing to move out of a rental, right, I guess so he was even your home.

He was so committed to staying in this place that he put himself at financial risk because he couldn't afford it.

He's trying to sing this Swan song or this sad song that Swans whatever, some sort of song, you know that he Michelle, he was like, no, you can't, you can't have this place.

I'm going to die in here, and you you go, you sleep downstairs.

And then she she said it was so it was unbearable to live there, so she went and got another place.

And then he whinds about, well then it was double the rent with only one income.

It's like move, move.

Literally, it's that simple, just move, Just move somewhere that's a better fit for you.

I don't I do not understand.

And it's clear that Jesse at first was trying to say that he didn't have money issues, and then all of a sudden, like when Michelle said it, he was like no, and then Andy said it.

He was like yeah, okay, fine, and it's like, really right, did you catch that?

I was like, are you serious?

So you know, I just think Jesse creates his own issues, and he wants so badly for Michelle to be the cause of that, because wouldn't that be easier if Michelle was his problem instead of him being his problem?

Yeah, but I'm too late, too little, too late.

When you keep explaining you try, you try, you try, you went to these men's groups.

You know you're trying.

It's too late.

What you've done is done and done.

She's gone.

Whatever you're trying, whatever you tried to do to bring her back, was still nauseating and still not working.

And in the meantime, to hear how painful it was to be with him is just really sad.

And then oh the other thing about the rent, She was like, yeah, he's like, I'm paying my rent And she said, well, who's loaning you the money?

Oh?

I got that?

Da is it Quentin Tarantino?

Well is his gay friend from Venmo?

You know that venmoed him all of this money?

Remember that was a whole thing.

I think they talk about it in another Andy asked him like, who's the gay person that set you this money?

And I think they're going to talk about it.

But clearly Jesse has trouble managing finances and that's not a Michelle problem.

That's fully a him problem, and to me, I don't understand how he cannot easily resolve that by just moving to somewhere he can actually afford.

Okay, yeah, it could be solved.

All right, Well, is there anything else that you want to speak on with Michelle and Jesse?

I don't know if I have anything else.

There was something that came up in my brain.

But then was it the Baywatch the season Desist any event?

Yes?

Okay, yes it was that.

Oh no, here's what it was.

Okay, it was how Jesse really I think Jesse the men's group chat, it seems like a real men's rights sort of algorithm type nonsense, and he really thought he had something when he talked about that his daughter could meet his girlfriend because they're both females and you know, because vaginas, but he couldn't meet Aaron because he's a man, and I love that.

Checks they were, you know, both these men's rights guys were like yeah, fulk ladies, And it's like everyone else was like, no, that's nonsense, Like that might make sense in your men's group chat of horrors, but that's not a thing at all and makes literally no sense.

Yeah, I completely agree and the other thing that was very manipulative and controlling.

I don't even I don't know if I can slap sexist on it or not.

But this it just inspired me because the men's group thing.

You know, he's been going to so many men's whatever's hand on heart's type stuff and he's all about like boundaries, said boundaries, And when he allowed his girlfriend of one month to call Michelle to set boundaries with Isabella, you know, he told her to do that because like some men's group was like, oh yeah, I think it's really healthy to have someone set boundaries, you know, make Michelle feel like she's got control if you call her and say, can I have some boundaries?

What are you doing?

I mean Michelle being like, yeah, this isn't between you, this is between us.

Why well, okay, I'll tell you why Jesse triangulated his girlfriend.

So triangulation is a something that happens that people use to try to manipulate and control the narrative.

So Jesse involved, and it involves so like when you're having a conflict with two people, triangulation means bringing a third party in to triangulate that drama and try to manipulate and control.

And I think that's exactly what Jesse was doing.

The hubris of this man to tell his girlfriend of one month to call the mother of his child.

That is the dumbest thing I think I've ever heard of.

And I and the fact that she did it, she's probably perfect for Jesse.

Yeah.

I wonder if they met through one of those groups the men's Yeah, No, I don't know.

Is that that's the bay Watch gal?

Right?

Yeah, And it's like she's so she doesn't want Michelle talking about her, so she sent a cease and desist.

But then it's like, you're gonna call her and say your.

Boundaries please write both Jesse and.

His girlfriend please go far away from us with that, because that is insane.

Wait.

That other thing that when Sina got brought in was I had to laugh because you gotta love a Sheena pull in when I guess Andy was like, so, by the way, when he was talking to Jesse, he had this smirk, that this smirk on his face that was like, I got a deal with this fucking guy.

He was like, so, what do you say about the rumors that your girlfriend says negative things about you?

Which was very strange.

I don't know, like too much about the background about that, but he was like, oh, I don't believe it.

Well, she holds my feet to the fire, and I love that.

I was like, what do you think Michelle has been trying to do for years?

You idiot?

But then he says that Sheena called his girlfriend and said that no one will like you as long as you're with Jesse on the show.

Yeah, it's gonna like you.

I don't think it's gonna work out well for you.

And I feel like that's something personally I could totally see Sheena saying.

I could totally see her being like, listen, you know, I understand you wanting to have this platform, but you know, I just could totally absolutely see it.

Yeah, it was very funny.

Well, is there anything else that we want to touch on before we wrap up this Valley episode?

I think, okay, one thing I did want to touch on the last thing that I'll say, because this really stood out to me in terms of Nia's body image stuff.

And so Andy was talking to Nia about some of her body image stuff.

So I think that you know, Nia talked about it really being a balance with you know, you live in California, right, so I'm sure you know.

Santa Ana Clarita Oil near Danny.

That's right, Are they your neighbors?

Kind of?

I guess that's wild.

But so she just talked about the honest difficulty.

LA is like a different universe, right in terms of how women body their body image, and you know, she's like in entertainment and so it's finding this happy medium between what works for her body and then like the intense rigors of the It's just it's not great in terms of like how things are in LA and body image and all of that.

You know, it's a it's there's a lot of unrealistic expectations with women.

But the one thing.

That really bothered me was like everyone's talking about how great Janet looked, and she did look great, but she said she lost seventy pounds including the baby.

Okay, so what's a baby?

I don't know?

Eight ten so and what she joked that it was from adderall and pilates.

I didn't like that.

I don't like any of that because I think I need people to understand.

I just want to tie this through line.

Is that Nia's on the couch talking about how hard it is to have four children.

What that does to your body, right, Women give their bodies for their families, literally, and then what they get in return is shame and guilt and you know, societal expectations.

And I just felt that Janet perpetuated that a little bit and I just didn't I just wanted to say I didn't love it.

I didn't care for it.

That's an intense amount of weight to lose for somebody.

I just I just want people hearing this.

It's like, we got to be healthy and mindful of feeding our bodies appropriately and having self compassion and self love with our bodies, which means you know, feeding them appropriately, not treating them badly and things like that.

And so it's just one last thing that I wanted to say because.

It didn't agree.

I mean, seventy pounds is a really shocking thing to say.

Now, I will, I will try to massage those numbers a little bit, because doctors usually say and Darling Bishes correct me if I'm wrong.

And my experience is like you would gain like twenty five pounds normally, twenty to twenty five pounds normally with a baby, Okay, that's including like the placenta and you know, your breasts are getting bigger, and the blood and the actual weight of the baby.

So when that baby's out boom, twenty pounds, you know is goneotentially, So if it's like twenty five then but it's like that, So then if you do the math, fifty pounds past that from what we saw her last year and we did see her stand up, but I'm like thinking, that can't be healthy.

You know, that's that is like a really extreme, too extreme, and and it also shows a little bit of her hand, which is like, why did you do that so extremely?

Because you're on TV?

You know, like clearly right, and do you understand I mean, I'm sure you understand this, But how thin you have to be to look really thin on TV, like for example, Heather to grow in real life she must be invisible?

Yeah, I don't, you know.

And so I just think that we have to be really careful how we internalize those messages when we're watching something like this on TV, because that expectation I don't think is realistic.

It seems extreme to your point, and to me, extremes are a sure sign that something isn't super healthy for us.

Right.

At least she was honest about the adderall.

That's that's true.

And I guess, like, how do you get so so what how do you get adderall for weight loss?

I don't under like is that why she was taking adderall?

And does I adderall have that effect on you?

Yeah?

So adding all?

Yeah, adderall.

I'll explain too quickly.

It's basically one like molecule away from like methamphetamine.

It's just like a legal version of that that has a different molecules of differences.

And so an amphetamine is going to decrease your appetite and it's going to Yeah, it's it's an appetite suppressed.

So that's why sometimes you see people who use amphetamines they get really skinny and things like that.

So my beef with that is that is a psychotropic medication that should only be utilized for folks who have ADHD or add and it should be used appropriately and ethically with your doctor.

It's not a medication that should be used for weight loss.

And it just does happen to have that effect.

So I also didn't like how well it's like, do you have ADHD where you prescribed that?

And we have some questions?

Yeah, I do.

I have some questions.

And so while I appreciate the honesty.

I think that people in LA two there's a lot of medications used to perpetuate unhealthy food behaviors, which is not healthy for anybody.

So yeah, absolutely good, good stuff good.

That's well, that's a lot, and I'm just so delighted that I can talk to you about this.

Thank you so much.

I'm so glad we could do our collab together.

Me too, Thank you, Amy.

I always love chatting with you.

I love connecting with the Darlingbishes.

It's one of my favorite things to do.

And this has been a whot.

So thank you with me.

Thank you.

Okay, Well, Melissa Reich, where let's tell you tell my listeners and I'll tell your listeners where they can find.

Us, Okay, So check me out on Patreon please at your bish therapist.

You can find me on social media at your bish therapist.

But specifically, if you're looking for ad free extra content full video of Amy and I, that will be on my Patreon and it will also be on my YouTube be your bi therapist, so please check that out.

Yay.

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