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Hey, everybody, welcome in.

Today we are discussing the boomerang of an episode that was season nine, episode three, Love the Way You Lie, Every date of January twenty fifth, twenty twelve.

Synopsis reads Dan helps a struggling Hayley at Karen's cafe.

Meanwhile, Quinn discovers that Clay is hiding something from her, and Chase tries to mend a broken heart.

Brooke is let down by her lunch plans with her dad, and Julian makes a life changing mistake.

It was directed by our very own Paul Johansson and written by Lenn Rosenfeld.

I loved it too, but there was a lot.

You're right, it was a boomerang of an episode one thousand percent.

It's a perfect word.

Yeah.

One of my first notes was, oh, it's just so nice to see Clay and Quinn finally having just like a chill, fun morning.

And boy did that change quickly.

So Joy, I need to I need to catch you up to speed on something because you weren't here last episode.

But I've developed a fan theory of my very own.

Okay, okay, and here's what it is.

Dan Scott is the actual mastermind behind Nathan's kidnapping.

Here's why.

So remember in episode nine oh one, it's a bit of a red herring, but because we knew it was coming, like that moment when Karen's cafe door is left open and then there's like a big there's a big shadowy figure jiggling the handle.

We were like, oh, was it the Eastern European gangsters.

It couldn't have been, because at that point in the story, Nathan was not supposed to be going to Europe.

Again, Clay was that's right, right, So it had to be Dan, right, And then he's it's made very clear to him that he is not welcome there and so Dan always needing an angle.

Maybe he's the one who put this in motion, because isn't it kind of odd that he also becomes the hero.

He figures it out and doesn't chicks up.

Okay, now here, So that's me catching you up on my theory from nine oho two.

Now here's my theory on nine oh three.

I think Dan got in the ear of the cafe owner across the street and convinced them to poach your chef.

Because when Karen's cafe suddenly abruptly loses its chef, that is obviously a deal breaking situation for a cafe.

And what is his specialty cook flippin' burgers.

Yeah, he's a line cook.

Now and all of a sudden he's just there.

You didn't even call him, He just shows up and is by the way, it's a very odd scene that you're like, who delivered that burger?

You wouldn't notice someone cooking in your kitchen for fifteen minutes.

But still, so, this is what I'm running with the so far the season is that he orchestrated Karen's cafe losing at chef, and he is the perpetrator if or he's a perpetrator behind Nathan's kidnapping, this.

Is I don't think that's a bad theory.

I will say that Dan has displayed a consistent habit of just randomly knowing when to show up at.

Yeah, so that doesn't throw me too much.

It would with anyone else.

But I think you're onto something about the cafe across the street.

I think you're onto something about the whole thing with Europe That is really interesting.

It's a really interesting shift in the plans.

And when you think about the kind of guy Dan Scott is, it would be so easy for him to wander in there.

I just wanted to see what's happening, you know.

I used to be the mayor of this town, really excited to see downtown getting built up.

Gosh, but how are you guys going to survive without Chef Jeff from across the street, you know, like like seating the whole thing, like you know you're not going to make it.

I could just see him doing it perfectly.

Yeah, because Dan needs to be needed otherwise he can be discarded for a good reason quite easily, right, And we've already seen that he is.

He's already being machiavellan.

Machiavellian because we had that one scene at nine oh two when Haley and Nathan are having a quiet private conversation in their room and we pan out to see that Dan is quietly standing in the hallway eavesdropping.

Just listening on the other side of the door, like a full creep.

Yes, so this may all be disproved, but I'm having a really fun time watching this now with my own theories brewing in the background.

I love it.

I love Rob as a One Tree Hill conspiracy theorist.

This is going to be my new rabbit hole.

Are my own One Tree Hill theories.

Also, speaking of the cafe, I cannot explain to you how seeing Jamie come around with the little busboy tray gave me the most intense nostalgia for season one, thinking about Haley working in the cafe and just thinking about those generational rites of passage when families do stay in the same place that they grew up.

And I was like, oh my god.

In my notes, it's working in the cafe is perfect.

Yeah, Like it just killed me so good.

There's so much about the space of Karen's Cafe and being back open and Haley running it, and it all just feels so good.

It's so sweet.

Although Haley was working in heels again, like running around working in heels.

That was observation from Rory and Sammy.

They go, I'm sorry she in stilettos.

Yeah, I said, oh, we were all in stilettos exclusively for nine seasons because we're all so short and the boys are all so tall that they couldn't make up for the height differences otherwise.

But also, how in the world Old has been working there and did not notice that someone is building a cafe directly across the street.

That was a huge shock.

It doesn't happen in a day, no, no, no.

And not to mention the grand opening sign is literally a billboard glued to the front of a building.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the flyer that you get shown, Yes, so many fonts on one piece of paper.

So many fonts.

I was like, I can't even read what this is because my eyes are in shock.

It wasn't good.

Also, that would be like going to a chili's grand opening and them announcing that they poached the chef from the rival Applebee's.

Yeah, Like, who do you think is showing up for the specific line cook who works this greasy spring exactly?

Yeah?

Yeah, because the guy from Karen's Cafe is clearly not a grand ackets Gormet a Michelin star level chef.

So what are we talking about?

I've phoning in not showing up to work.

Yeah.

Also, gang, how are we gonna say that you are now the only gourmet cafe when you are using the exact same chef from the non gourmet cafe.

It just sort of feels like if you're going to brag about a glow up or an upgrade, Yeah, you might not want to advertise that you're bringing the whole back of house.

Yeah, it's a weird choice.

Yeah, that was pretty fine, completely.

Unrelated to anything, but it was so weird to me.

I did not remember the Chef Jeff bit.

And one of my best friends was in a relationship with a chef named Jeff for six years and they're still very very good friends, And for the last decade our friend group has exclusively called him chef Jeff.

No one calls him Jeff, and anytime anyone single names him, they go, hey, chef, Like it's been like a bit for ten years and Jackson's going chef Jeff, Chef Jeff.

So you watch the show with your friends, did you guys all just stand up and point at the TV like, shif Jeff.

No, we all were what we were round immediately and then took a video and sent it to him.

We were like, what is this?

Did my show like manifest you into our lives?

And he was gagged.

He was like, wait when was this filmed?

Like the whole thing is so weird, that's so funny.

I loved Karen's Cafe, that all this stuff.

There were so many antics, some of the things happening.

I mean between Chris Keller and Chuck and I mean that we had so much fun on that day in Karen's Cafe.

I remember, and.

I will say, I feel this is again It's one of those instances of not realizing how much you need something until it's presented to you and you realize how great it is.

But that's how I felt watching the scenes in Karen's Cafe, when it gave us this huge area to play where we could have characters who normally would never cross paths all sitting in the same space.

Like the show with like this size of a cast needs a hub like this.

It needs a peach pit, It needs a Karen's Cafe so that we can have all of this cross pollination of storylines.

Yeah, and trick does it pretty well, but a cafe does something a bar can't.

It gives you a place to pop in all day long.

You can always grab a coffee and a scone or a burger or whatever.

It's the kind of spot too, like you think.

About where our caide.

Yeah, where our characters are, you know, I think even for me, not that I did in this episode, but I would buy that if Brooke is out running errands and has an hour between meetings, she's going to pop into the cafe and sit at the bar, shoot the shit with Hayley, see her other friends.

I'm not going to do that at twelve thirty on a Tuesday afternoon at trick, Like that's a weird thing to do in the middle of the day.

You're not going to bring your infants to a bar at now.

Really.

No, As much as much as I wish someone would do the Reese Witherspoon you have a baby in a bar?

To me at some point, I think, no, So Karen's it really does.

It gives us the energy of cheers, but it lets us have it all day and all night, and it's it's so nice to.

Have it back.

Oh, I have a question.

What is Karen's relation to Keith because at the end of the episode, Haley has that line to Paul or she or she says, you actually can't come back, and then the line is just because this was Karen's cafe.

This is Karen's cafe, and I realized, oh, I'm missing history here.

Well, you know, Keith essentially stepped in as dad for Lucas and kind of raised Maybe you don't know that, but.

He doesn't know.

Karen and Keith were best friends, like really really tight.

He basically stepped in and raised Lucas.

Nothing ever happened between Karen and Keith for all those years because the relationships, which is so valuable, They didn't want to risk anything, uh interfering.

And then when Keith, when when Dan killed Keith, Karen and Keith were engaged, right, they were going to get married.

Oh no, is.

She pregnant with Keith's baby or does she end up pregnant with Andy's baby?

No, Keith's baby.

It's Keith's baby.

So Karen is off somewhere with Lucas's brother with Keith who Lucas Keith excuse me, sister who is from Keith?

Yeah Lily, yeah.

Yeah, we never brought her back onto the show.

We did, we did every once in a while, but yeah, not enough.

But the the sort of specialness of them finally admitting they had feelings for each other when the kids were old enough.

Yeah, it was.

It was a major storyline in the show.

And Dan's jealousy sort of spurred the murder in the high school hallway.

And oh, this is so bad.

Is Karen Lucas and Nathan's mom.

She's Lucas's mom.

She's Lucas's mom.

Who is Nathan's mom?

Deb is Nathan's mom?

Barbara?

Yes?

Yeah, yeah, so Deb is Nathan's mom.

Karen is Lucas's mom.

Okay, that's good clarification for me.

Gosh, I really need to watch seasons one through six.

You really do.

That's funny.

Well, it makes sense.

I mean you probably watched like the pilot or a few episodes when you first Oh no, because you got you and Chantelle, like did you say you binged it?

Or you only watched a little.

Bit power binged like five and six, But you know, I don't remember anything from those either.

So no, literally, the only thing I've ever seen from seasons one through four is what we have seen in recaps during this podcast.

Yeah, oh like the flashbacks.

Yeah yeah, yeah, sorry, flashbacks not recaps.

Yeah, that's funny.

That makes sense that detail would slip your mind since Lucas isn't around anymore and we don't see Dead much anymore either.

There's just no reason for that to be in your brain.

And Karen has never been a part of the show since I started watching.

Yeah, that's right, Yeah, because she came back in season six.

Karen and Andy, who is the man she finally starts dating after Keith has passed.

They come back for Lucas and Mayten's wedding, and I can't really remember what else.

I don't think we've seen them since then.

I don't remember if they'd been in seven and eight at all.

And this is strange, but during the recap at the start of this episode, I was like, I was looking at something else.

My eyes were away from the screen, and it occurred to me because there was a scene between Brooke and Ted.

Have you noticed that Richard Bergee sounds very similar to Paul.

It sounds odd, right, but I don't think maybe it's not every scene, But like, if you watch the recap to nine oh three, whatever, Richard's snippett is close your eyes and they sound eerily similar.

Wow, that's funny.

Okay, I'll have to go listen.

Well, selfish narcissistic fathers.

Maybe there's a tenor right, Yeah, they have a brand, you know what is interesting.

I skipped through the recap because we had just done last week's episode, and opening the episode, I realized I was in it, and I was like, oh no, I don't want to miss anything.

So I around and my note for that top scene was, oh, Quinn finds Clay and then in all caps in the house bless like I was so happy you were okay and talk about the boomerang.

I didn't realize how quickly the storyline would come into play in this episode.

I really didn't, did I okay, I didn't know where nine oh three was gonna go.

And then when we see you and I go oh click, clearly didn't get his meds.

And then I literally wrote, well you jinxed it to myself in my notes because I'd been so happy.

Yes, so I remember that there.

I remember this beat of Clay by the way, in the world's most obvious drug deal of all time, it's in.

Front of the alley, like the doorway, like on the sidewalk.

Essentially, it was more of a cry for help than it was a drug deal.

It was like, please arrest us, please notice us doing this.

Somebody helped me.

But I thought that I thought the pill buying was part of his fugue state thing.

So when he starts seemingly very sincerely telling Quinn, yeah, I have no idea that we were talking about, oh, yeah, this is the beginning of the fugue state.

But then when I realized he did know what he was doing, I was like, oh, that was you were so good and quick to gaslight.

Yeah, it was scary.

It was really scary.

It was macary, very disturbing, I have to say.

And Rob, do you remember, because same.

I found the fight into then the admitting in the end so upsetting that I was trying to remember, trying to think like, oh, was he sort of in his fugue state, and then because he saw the pictures, was he trying to make sense of it and downplay it with her like or was he really conscious that he was doing this.

I couldn't figure out.

What was going on, nor could I I was trying to remember because up until the scene where Clay is deleting the pictures off her camera, which, what the hell so inappropriate?

I thought maybe it was that he didn't recall because it also reminded me in nine oh two, he's waiting at the pharmacy and they call his name and he kind of just seems to absent mindedly.

I thought that was the beginning of a fugue thing.

But now I'm going, did he just suddenly like wan?

Is he just going to buy more pills?

Like I didn't.

I didn't get it because the pill thing has no connective tissuy.

We haven't seen him having any pain.

He's been talking about it.

It's all behind him.

It's just odd.

But then I'm with you where it's it's odd because he has to know what he's doing, right, because if he doesn't, what is the worst lie to your partner?

Yeah?

Oops, sorry, I guess I've been hiding a serious addiction from you and buying drugs off the street.

Or Hey, I don't know what's going on with me and I'm scared.

Yeah, it just all seems out of character.

Is so out of character for Clay.

This is one of those things that they wrote it because they were told to.

But I wish it had been written in a way that was just still maintained a consistency with who Clay is exactly, had been very clear that there was some serious psychosis disconnect happening that puts the audience on its heels, like wait, what's going on?

But to have it be just straight up, like straight up gaslighting, like pathological liar gaslighting, that was really, it's not Clay.

We've never seen anything to that end with him.

It's not Clay, and it feels really disconcerting.

And to your point, it could have been disconcerting in a way that was less confusing, had it just been written a little better for you, Yeah, had there been some indication, whether we observe you doing something as an audience that she doesn't see, or you explained something a little differently.

It just felt like they got the shape of the storyline they wanted to make, and then they didn't fill in the details.

Yeah, well, just the progression, it doesn't it doesn't.

It's very abrupt, and it doesn't really flow right because it's Clay seemingly honestly saying she he has no idea what she's talking about, right, And then sincerely, so sincerely, which again is why when I'm watching it, I'm going, oh, this is the beginning of the fugue stuff, because that's Clay being earnest right there, she.

Holds up this little envelope in front of his face.

Yeah.

And then but then here's what I don't give it, but no, but between there, between those two beats, there's the scene of me deleting the picture, which I don't get is because here's the deal.

I think you either lose that moment or if you have that moment, it's got to be Clay going what the hell like if it just it doesn't make it.

If I'm deleting the picture, I thought that.

Happened after because it was the whole fight.

The fight happened in one time.

She's like, blah blah blah, your pills.

I saw you.

You're going, I don't know what you're talking about, no idea.

You sound crazy, Like what is wrong with you?

You sound crazy?

She whips a bag out in front of him and goes, I saw it.

I took pictures.

And you go, okay, well actually, I mean it's not like it's a real problem.

And then you cop to it.

And then we cut to you sitting on the couch reflecting, and you delete the photo off the phone.

That's what I saw it in the seconds I saw it happening in.

And then the last beat is the beach right, yes, yes, it's fight.

Then you solo with the camera, then you guys on the beach.

But I would have so preferred, And I mean I get that this was twenty twelve, so maybe this wasn't the obvious thing to do yet with the tech, But I would have loved to see you looking at that camera and then Google, like, how can a person, you know, how can someone who sleepwalks not remember something they're doing when they're clearly awake, Like something to go, what's happening to my brain is part of what's happening to me at night, happening to me during the day, Like.

That would have fell a consistency for his.

Yes, if I, as an audience member, had seen you trying to figure out what was happening, I wouldn't have thought, oh, you're you're a liar?

What's going on?

That doesn't feel like Clay?

And it could have been the you know, the scene could have been the same length.

It could have just been the eighth of a page that it was.

But I would know, I would I would feel to Joy's point, the consistency of this man, I think as a viewer, I.

Know, yeah.

And again it's just you have two choices, which is you could just be honest and say, I have no idea what's happening with me?

Or to me?

It seems like the far worse option.

Like one option is you have an invitation to bring your partner in and go, yeah, I'm scared, I don't know what's happening.

Help, which, based on everything we know about Clay, is what he would do.

Yes.

And then here's the other direction though, and decides to create a new lie on top of it, which is an equally scary situation.

By the way, it just I'm with you, it didn't track.

And then the fact that like he walks out on the beach.

What he did was so crappy.

It was so crummy to do to her.

And then he walks out on the beach and like doesn't even sit down, and not that he should be like eloquent in that moment, but that he didn't even like, just try harder.

I just it felt like it was the least he could do to check a box in that situation.

Yeah, I agree, though I just thought it felt out of character.

And there was a couple parts in this episode I'm like, ah, yeah, here begins here, here we go, here begins this timeline.

You're right that the episode feel or sorry that what you're talking about that they had the shape of it, but they didn't have like hammer out and chisel out the details.

And I actually felt like that with the whole episode.

By and large, the Chris Keller stuff I thought was spot on, although I really disliked a lot of it, but there was still it was It was well crafted in terms of like I understood what was happening.

It was all consistent with who the character was.

It was all moving well, most of it was moving a storyline forward, but we was like get you know, getting getting us into more of Chris and his personality and getting him into the kitchen, like I get it.

But the rest of the episode just I don't know, all of it felt a little like we're okay, we're Austin's doing the Gooni's theater in the in the warehouse or a stage which I loved, and you know, a group full of kids with like little kids show up and pregnant Alison Munn and then all of a sudden we're in a strip club.

I was just really really confused.

There's a lot of whiplash on this episode.

Or how about we go from Clay and Quinn fighting, It's like it's tumultuous, it's uncomfortable and heavy, and then we go to Mouth and Milly yelling about his weight, and then we go to Julian leaving a baby in the car.

Mind you, the same music is playing over like all of it, and I'm like, it's like, which one of these does not belong?

Like what you can't you can't go from like the high of a level of Clay and Quinn and expect us to think that this ridiculous, stupid situation with Lee and Lisa are just like doing their best with But it was like to me, I was just going, are we supposed to think that these are like on this in the same lane?

Nod to the writing, Like the crafting of it was not good.

And that's not to say anything about Lenn Rosenfield.

What that is is about what was going on in the writer's room at the time.

There are so many think pieces that are disconnected, and at some point there's one person on top just saying do this, do this, do this, And so that's the job of the writer.

They just get handed in an assignment and they just have to figure out out.

So he did the best he could with the sign that was thrown at him and the fact that we all really liked this episode in spite of all that.

I think it's a huge testament to Paul who knew how to pull it all together somehow so that you don't you're not noticing really how disjointed it is, I guess until you start talking talking about it.

I know, I'm laughing.

I'm like, God, this episode is like being in the writing labs, you know, books in the class everyone.

But I do think there's something really interesting.

I'm so relieved that the whiplash of this episode was given to all of us in season nine because by now like we can do anything with whatever's on the page, and that Paul was in charge of it to give it some stickiness between the scenes, because he was able to take the commitment of every actor in every weird situation showing up and trying their best to tell the truth, and he managed to kind of glue the scenes together in a way visually.

You know, him and.

Peter Kowalski are DP did such a great job with the transitions and things, so they you know, they they gave it a little something.

But it is interesting to watch it and be like, some of it was weird, but we really liked it, And then as we start talking about it, we're like, wait a second, actually a lot of this is insane.

Super weird.

Chris Keller that I was screaming in the I mean, come on, Tyler Hilton turning up that was so good cafe we have shrinking fun that day.

Yeah, shrieking.

You don't know how hard it was for me to keep a straight face.

I mean looking at my face on camera, like I was biting my cheeks.

The bit about him discovering what an internship is and then seemingly immediately posting an available internship listen, very funny, and kudos to Tyler because he is so good with comedy.

Yeah, but like, I feel like we dialed up the Lothario factor to about a twelve in this episode and it still would have been wonderful at.

An eight exactly.

Yeah, you know, what's so interesting.

That's a good way of saying it.

I was watching that and I go, oh god, not the hawk girl comes to intern who has to say whatever they tell me to do.

And I was like, this is literally our boss's yeah fantasy, like he wrote his fantasy.

And I had forgotten that the two girls the twins that Tyler picks at the end.

As soon as I saw them, I went, oh my god, those were the girls our boss hired to work in wardrobe that season, and then he put them on the show.

Oh my gosh.

And I remember Sweet Carol, our wardrobe supervisor, being like, I cannot believe that I have to put my employees not try to help them navigate this man off camera, but now he's going to put them on the show, like.

Oh my god.

And I realized watching Tyler he threaded the needle so beautifully because he's a great comedian.

And I was like, Oh, what I love about this is not only is he doing well with this material that's so obvious on the nose, hat on a hat misogynistic.

He's making fun of our boss to our boss's face.

Oh.

And I was like, God, you're some like, hats off to you, friend, hats off to you.

He really put a nice little easter egg in this material that I know made us all go like roll our eyes and yeah.

He did it for it to be over.

Yeah, he just did it perfectly, And I was like, yeah, wow, these were the sort of early This was like phase one of every girl's me too experience on our show, and Tyler managed to do a wonderful job calling it out and.

It was all just like male wish fulfillment on our boss's part.

But again, kudos to Tyler because he actually made it palatable.

But it was also a case of we went back to the well four times more than we needed.

Yeah, the joke lands after two.

Yeah too much.

I would have taken a lot more time with Lisa and Lee.

I would have taken more time watching Brooke and Julian be domestic or or given some Victoria some more time.

There was a lot of stuff I could have enjoyed watching a lot more than that.

It did not understand.

Yeah.

I just have one note, just all caps, poor Lee and Lisa, because I just the storyline is whatever.

Everyone knows how I feel about the Strongland.

I can't stand it for so many reasons.

But and again in One of the biggest though, besides the fact it's offensive and lazy, is just that we're wasting two really talented actors on just a joke of a storyline.

But I also don't like what they did the Millie.

I get it that she's frustrated, but again, talk about something that doesn't line up with who their character is.

She is so loving and compassionate that the fact that she would suddenly in front of an audience, a televised audience, beside a room full of people, just start ripping on him and going you're fat, You're fat, You're fat.

It's just I was No, She's smarter than that, she has more poise than that.

And then the way the sort of the fight unfolds behind she kind of throws some like really crummy punches like low like low blows at him.

Yeah, And I just it didn't I didn't feel like I was watching the two of He's also overly like obtuse.

Like again, Mouth is one of the smartest people in tree Hill that we know.

Why is he suddenly thinking that the dry cleaners are conspiring against him and Millie's.

Button version of Clay's storyline.

Yes, it's really weird.

He's not an idiot.

He knows if your stuff is getting tighter.

The first thing you do is go like, oh, it's just none of it to me.

No, it was done so hammy.

I mean, if you're going to explore a storyline about somebody who's depressed and how that's affecting them, you've got two great actors who can handle that material.

Yeah, in a real way.

And even when you think about the how incongruous it is with who she is with who he is, exactly like it being this episode being so weird for Clay.

I would have loved to see him sort of making jokes.

Maybe it's the dry cleaners, maybe it's like being in on it a little bit in the segment, and to see her get more and more uncomfortable, and when they go off the air, to flip out at him, and like for them to be fighting when they're off air for a commercial break, and to see Jerry being like, guys, you're back on.

You're back on, guys, and like trying to get their attention.

And then the thing, the worst thing she says, they realize their back on the air and everyone's like haha, and they have to read the teleprompter and figure it out, and then after they go and have this emotional conversation where she can be like, I'm so sorry, I've been so stressed, and I've been trying to talk to you, and Jerry's been trying to talk to you, and no one knows what to do.

Like it could have been the same amount of time and the same number of scenes, but but the on air incident.

Everything had to be on eleven all yeah time, the on air incident could have been an accident, and everything could everything could have felt more like these people and suddenly like the nicest girl we all know is screaming at her boyfriend, like it doesn't make any sense.

What show?

That's what I just felt like.

My notes were, like, what show is this?

I don't know what watching.

Yeah, everybody had great hair, though the hair in the episode was unbelievable, even yours, Rob, everybody had great Another.

Memory I have from this was Paul was directing it, and at this time, you know, Paul was always kind of intimidating to me, and I think part of that was also though, because I knew he was a good actor, and he was one of the very few directors who actually cared about performance, and I remember him basically telling me like he was like getting your body, like be be clear, Like I know you can sort of walk through this, but what does it look like if you like really connect to it.

And I remember being so frustrated because at the heart of it, I didn't know what the hell with Clay was doing.

Yeah, so it wasn't so much that my unwillingness or unability to connect to the character.

I genuinely didn't know what Clay was doing, but am I remorse, Well, do I know what I'm doing?

And I was getting frustrated with Paul.

I was getting frusher at the situation, but it was sort of directed at Paul, and I think he was probably frush with me.

And at one point when we're shooting that beach scene, he uh, he could probably tell I was getting frustrated, and he and the classic Paul He was like, hey, man, if you're mad, tell me to go off.

And I was like, hey, Paul, why don't you go stand behind the fucking camera and call action as like an exercise.

Of course, I've never spoken to anyone like that, but I was like, listen, you're pissing me off.

If you're gonna give me permission, I'm gonna take it.

But it was this cool.

It was just it was a nice wake up call for me that, like, because you were saying so nine seasons you you are able to sort of show up and know what needs to be nailed, what beats need to be hit.

You kind of know the flow and the sound of it.

But Paul just kind of came in just this wake up call of like, but but can you do more?

Even though I didn't really understand what was happening with Clay.

So I was frustrated because I wanted to do more, but I just genuinely didn't know what was happening.

And it's not like it was an environment we were invited to ask a bunch of questions and dive into our characters figure stuck out.

No, not to mention that this story came in with zero warning, you know, it was it made no sense to me.

Did you get any heads up or any explanation at all?

No?

No.

I just kind of called our bos and was like, Hi, just read this script, huh And he was like, yes, it's good, right, And this is obviously me pre like therapy and stuff.

So I was just like, okay, have a good one, like thank you.

Yeah, it was, it was.

There was a lot.

Yeah, so there was a lot that was going on that was frustrating and confusing about this for me.

But the wake up call was just it's easy to sort of get comfortable on a series, you know, and you know what you're sort of supposed to do when you just play in that lane and not that you're not trying, but you can't operate from a place of kind of autopilot, but you know, you know it works.

You have your bag of tricks, and Paul was just there to challenge me, going cool, I've seen your bag of tricks.

I think there's more can you show me?

And it was just a nice wake up call to have another performer go hey, man, keep keep growing, keep doing yeah, keep exploring.

And so even though you care, yes, we all care.

And even though I didn't feel like we found it in this one, because like I said, I just genuinely didn't know what the hell I was actually playing, it was a good reminder for me that I took with me of like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, like I need to I need to stay vigilant and stay curious and find, you know, new ways to be, to be different with Clay, you know, and to just explore and play.

That's really great and I think it's it's important to be reminded of that as an artist.

You know, it's easy to look around at people that work in the industry and think, oh, they know exactly what they're doing, and the irony of what we do is that it's unknown and brand new.

Every time.

Every time you go on a new set, you're starting over.

Every time you start a new movie, you're starting from zero.

And one of the disservices that happens to people to your point, Rob on a long running network show is you learn the technical stuff to the point that it can get in the way of the artistry, Like, you know, how little time we have.

You know we're losing the light.

You know that you got Sometimes you get the script five days before the episode starts shooting, and sometimes you get it the night before.

And either way you're expected to do your job and to have someone like Paul be your ally.

When you're getting nothing from your writers, you're getting no explanation for this thing that makes no sense for your character.

And without saying it, what he's basically saying is yeah, they're not going to help you right now, but you can help yourself.

Like, if you don't know why Clay is doing something, you have to figure it out, and you get to the irony is you get to make it up, whether it relates to anything or not.

You can still tell a true story in this moment, and a lot of TV directors aren't going to take the time to do that with you because they also know they're losing the light and they're in a panic.

And to get that.

It's a unique problem to television, I think because theater and film you already have the whole story, you have plenty.

Of time, and with television you have directors who just want to get asked back yeah, you know, And so what happens largely is like they're just there to try to make their days.

They're a hired gun, and they also don't know the characters as well as we do, so yeah, oftentimes it is just like, let's just make this day.

And at the time I felt like I was almost being antagonized.

I realized, of course, as I got older, that he was challenging me in a healthy way.

It wasn't a pissing match and even him telling me, hey, man, if you're mad at me, tell me to screw off.

What he was doing was he was trying to get me to connect to my feelings.

Yeah, give you permission to be angry or confused.

Yeah, exactly it And so it was.

It was very smart.

He handled it so well.

But that was for an episode that I was I didn't love that experience of working with him was the highlight for me.

I love that.

That's really special.

We got to talk about speaking of boomerangs, let's just go from that to Chris Keller saying he can do it all in Karen's cafe, talk about good direction to cutting immediately to one of the funniest screams I've ever heard an adult man make in my life at a small fire in the kitchen.

Yeah it was perfect.

Yeah, it was.

Perfect, and metaphorically especially after the hat on a hat of all the girls in the office and then him hitting on Quinn and being like I'll be whatever you need a shoulder to cry on revenge sex.

Oh, and then being like this mentor to Chock like yeah, I'm the coolest.

Yeah, I'll help you out, little guy, and then the shrieking and it's a saucepan.

It's not even it's not a big deal.

It's not a greasefire that's out of control.

No, it's contained.

It's just like a.

Little it's a little all clad pan.

You're fine, And it's so it's such a nice way to shoot holes in his bravado immediately and it Yeah, see that's that's a good writing device.

Yes, so smart.

I also did you notice the song Chase, the song he did the toaster shrutele Melody.

Yes, that was funny.

Yeah.

Their stuff, Yeah, man, their stuff is interesting.

I like where it's going because it's an unlikely friendship.

But yeah, the Chris Keller ride always kind of keeps surprising you.

I guess that's just sort of how it goes, huh, because there were some extreme in this episode.

Yeah, he can just sort of be inserted into any situation and it seems to work.

He really can.

And what I like about the seesaw of who Chris Keller is is he can be the worst and then the best him.

He's the only person who could have said to Chase that girl was never going to stick around.

She was living in a hotel.

And you see the light bulbs go off of like, oh, yeah, she'd been here for years and never left a hotel.

People don't do that if they're moving somewhere, and nobody had been able to point it out.

And it's such a in a weird way, it's a low blow and it's a gift at the same time.

And that is exactly who Chris Keller is in one person.

He is the best and the absolute worst.

Yes, which is a credit to Tyler that he nails both of those.

Yeah, so lovable Chuck adopting the Chris Keller cosplay, the.

Full outfit, so cute, the hair, the whole, the glasses, all of it.

Poor Chase can't catch a break with that kid.

Poor Chase.

And I love that Chuck not only being obsessed with Chris Keller is tormenting Chase, but he's tormenting Julian.

He's like, this is stupid, Like.

He just he just eviscerates the men in his life at every turn.

Sad.

Let's talk about Julian though for second, because that moment, this, I mean, I'm gonna say it early that he gets my honorable mention.

Because he.

I gotta say, I'm watching that thinking Okay, again, what episode is this?

Like, there's just we're all over the place and now Austin's standing in an empty soundstage reciting Goonies.

But and it's a credit of Paul too again that he wasn't just like just speed through it, this is dumb.

He was like, no, if we're doing this, we're doing it.

And he actually Austin gave a real honest performance.

I was sucked in.

I was like, do the rest of it, like, I want to hear all of it.

I'm there, I'm here with you.

And it was like and also the irony that yet again another example of our creator trying to emasculate Austin slash Julian by having him do this really stupid thing and then all the kids are watching him.

Hah hah.

Yeah, well, joke's on you, because all it does is make him look like interesting and soulful and creative and I just want to be this guy's friend.

Yeah, he's so charming.

And the fact that it's the Goonies, it's like it's what everyone you know in our age bracket loved as a kid, and he's so in it.

And you think he's so in it because he's losing his mind because he's trapped alone in a sound stage, like in a warehouse.

And then Paul's direction pans the camera around.

Him with Miss Lawren's entire class.

So he's doing it.

I go one man play it's so charming and then it's so funny.

And I had the exact same note.

I was like, God, every time they try to ding Austin, they just make him the most charming, adorable person.

Yeah, because it didn't even look like he was.

I didn't even take it like he was losing his mind.

I just took it like, oh, this is just an artist.

He's an artist that's lost in his art for a moment.

He's just enjoying his own company.

It's like, I'm so on board with this guy.

Yeah, I love it.

I loved it also in that scene, Sorry, we can keep talking about Julian, but who's baby is miss Lauren having?

Right?

Yeah, that was pretty new.

When it revealed that she was pregnant.

I was like, oh my god, oh my god, I don't know.

I don't remember this.

Yeah, I gotta say I think because I did the same thing where I didn't actually notice visually that she was pregnant.

My brain just went, no, she got pregnant at the finale of last season, so she's and so I went back and looked and realized you can tell if you look.

But I think the idea was they kept her in the background of the shot, and then when she's walking away there's sort of a lot of kids in front of her eyes.

I think their goal was to just not make it obvious, to not have to address it.

I'm remembering in this moment too.

Of of course, Alison was actually pregnant.

Yes, that's what you're saying.

She got pregnant.

She was in Puerto Rico.

She found out she was pregnant.

Yes, yes, yes, sorry Alison, not miss Lauren.

I was yesing about yeah, oh oh yeah yeah.

My brain is like, oh right, of course, split story versus reality.

But yeah, yeah, but we don't even yeah, who's she with now, we don't know any of it.

I guess you're right they were trying to hide it.

I notice it right away, but yeah, I don't know.

Maybe girls noticed that stuff at their friends.

Before we get into the really heavy stuff.

I do want to say one of my favorite lines of the episode came in the strip club when you hear Chris Keller telling the the stripper about about how we got left and all the pains, and I'm watching it going, oh my gosh, that's crazy.

That's just like Chase.

That's wild.

And then I realized, oh no, he's co opting Chase's story.

And then it just she leaves and it pans over to Chase and he says, you used my pain for a free lap dance.

I thought that was so funny.

It was great.

God, Okay, well wait, Brooke and her dad, I want to talk about that for a minute too, because that felt it was really I mean, it's sad, but it was a nice It felt it felt necessary for us understanding more about Book's dad and the connection of her longing to have that relationship.

It was.

It was just a nice tacking on because it all we've ever done is heard about her father.

We saw the moment in the church where she was really happy to see him and he showed up super late, and it's just I felt like we needed a little bit more explanation of actually how this dynamic has continued to go down over the years.

Yes, and it couldn't just be late to the church, late to their brunch.

I loved that she continues repeating her logic to Victoria, saying, look, you changed, I'm going to give him a chance.

And you know, he's shown up and he's done this, he's got an investor and all these things, and she's really excited that she's going to go.

I mean, it's wish fulfillment from childhood, right, She's going to go play a game with her dad.

And then she gets there and they've already played, and when she gets handed that scorecard.

I didn't remember that detail.

And I'm watching myself in a scene and I felt like I got sucker punched when I saw that.

Yeah, I was like, man, that's heavy, and it's such a great device.

That is good writing.

The thing is communicated without anyone having to say it, and it allows you to feel it.

And I thought that that was really well done.

And so I have a question with that.

There wasn't It wasn't that Brooke was learning any new information in that moment.

It was just putting an exclamation point at the end of the sentence of her being left out right.

Yeah, It's like she gets there and is like, wait, my dad's here with four guys.

She was thinking, I'm going to play a round of golf with my dad and then maybe meet this investor person.

And she gets there to all these men wondering what's going on.

They're already done, they can't be done.

Maybe they're what's happening here?

And then when the guy hands her the scorecard, she knows like, oh, you've played rounds of golf already.

Y'all have been here for a long time.

Yeah.

You never intended to include me or teach me something.

And I'm I've just shown up here in this outfit with a set of clubs.

Like, how humiliated.

It has nothing to do with our relationship.

You're not involved or interested in that at all.

And how sad that at the end of it, when he's getting into his car, he was like, this was the perfect day.

Out, so brutal.

Yeah, yeah, well you did a great job.

That was just hard.

It was hard to see, Yeah, but so well done.

And then then this is We've had a lot of these moments in this podcast where we have a new experience, you know, as an adult or as a parent, and that that was the case with the end of this episode.

Even knowing what was coming, Yeah, man, this was a rough, rough one.

Paul did a great job making sure that there was no foreshadowing, no hint, was just you just assumed that.

I mean even in the scene between the two of you guys, it was almost a throwaway like okay, you could drop him ari right, blah blah blah.

But it was enough that you heard it, you didn't miss it.

It wasn't so small that you just skipped by it.

So you knew he was supposed to do that.

And the next time you see him, if you just figure, oh, he's already, he's already just done it.

Storyline is about Julian right ye, getting the studio.

It was a really well edded, like well cut together and edit is in directed.

Yeah, yeah, you don't see it coming.

And to your point, Joy Austin, I'll spoiler alert too.

He's absolutely my honorable mention in this episode because he plays all of the scenes leading up to it so well.

The anxiety in the stage is the nervousness about what's going to happen, and we know this thing has fallen through.

Then he gets this phone call.

He doesn't want to seem desperate.

Yeah, not that he has to say that, but we the audience see him flipping through the completely empty date book, trying to sound like things are going great, and then saying, yeah, today, wonderful.

He runs home and when he comes in, you can see on his face that he's doing something in his head.

And in my brain, I was like, oh, he's thinking about timing.

He's running his to do list.

Brooke says something to him, and Austin makes such a great choice as Julian where she asks him a question and you can tell it didn't register, so he looks up and stops what he's doing in his brain.

She says, the only thing worse than one sick baby, He says, two sick babies.

Now they're on the same page.

And the next time you see him, he's running what you saw him doing silently in that scene out loud at the ATM.

We have this, and we have this, and here's the stats, and here's the square footage, and here's what we can give you here, and so you understand that his brain is elsewhere in such an authentic way.

It was just so well done.

And hats off to him and hats off to Paul.

They clearly had conversations about how to communicate this stuff well and they really really executed it.

I agreed, agree, Oh yeah, and.

Then he goes to buy the nice Scotch to like woo the people because clearly that's something he learned from his dad, and like, oh, then everything's just horrible.

And it's also just so relatable as a parent that you're when you're constantly doing at least two things at once, your mind is rarely where your body is, you know, and like he runs in the house and it's like, puts a baby down, Hi, picks a baby up, leaves it.

Yeah, So it's it's just it's one of those things where like this is horrible, horrible, and I also understand it, like he's yeah, he's got so many plates spinning well.

And there's little details too that I know now that we all know now that we didn't know then.

But even the fact that the boys are young enough that their car seats are rear facing, yeah, and that the baby was in the car seat behind the driver, and that's what happens when you have two kids.

One's behind the driver and you can't see them, and the other you can kind of glance over behind the passenger seat.

So the baby's in the rear facing seat behind the driver so he can't see him, and if the baby was sleeping like it really reminded me of a moment a friend of mine talked about, and I won't say who, but talking about when their baby was four months old, same exact thing, rear facing seat behind the driver.

This person stopped at the grocery store on the way home, like they do all the time, and talked about walking into the grocery store, getting a cart to pick up the food to make the dinner for the kids, and realizing, oh my god, the baby's in the car and running back out and it was probably three minutes and thank god it was winter, it wasn't hot.

But my friend was so traumatized by it that for the next year, every single time they went anywhere, like if they if they were doing something, if they were parking and getting something out of the trunk of the car, this person told me they would take one of the baby's shoes off and hold it until they were done setting up the thing with all the car doors open, and then get the baby out and put the shoe back on.

And after months all of us were like, you're okay, you don't you probably don't need.

To like do that.

That seems like a that seems like a real thing you're torturing yourself with, but it's so human.

Yeah, it's human.

And when the.

Phone your phone call comes in, your phone call comes in, and it feels it still just feels so normal.

Everything feels totally fine.

And then the words come out of your mouth that daycare called and said, you never dropped off?

Is it Baker, sorry, not Baker?

Which son was it?

I don't remember if it was Jude or Davis.

Jude or Davis.

Okay, I think it was Davis.

But anyway, you never dropped him off, And like everything inside me, I knew what was coming, and I still had this internal gasp of oh my gosh, I never saw that coming either, which is so great that you want the audience to feel the same way that Julian feels.

Yes, because you're on you're with him, Like you said, it's you feel like you're watching Julian's story, specifically his business and this big opportunity.

So yeah, we're.

Just waiting for the guys to show up for him to like make the meeting, to do the meeting, Yeah, the deal and close the deal.

And even knowing how this unfolds.

I still I was, I was, I was letting my I was forgetting as well because I was doing.

Yeah, here are the talking points.

He got the cash, he's buying the fancy booze.

It's like, oh it was.

It was very very well crafted and unfortunately very effective because it just left me with a not in my stomach.

Yeah, well, we'll see what happens in the next one.

I'm I mean, I know in general, but interesting to watch how it was actually cut together.

And the way they.

Set the scene when he comes around the corner and you see the glass, and then you see it on the car seat, and then you see it on the ground, and then you see the bystanders, and then you see the ambulance and you see a stretcher, and then more bystanders, and everyone's looking and everyone's judging in it, and you just realize how bad it is.

Somebody saw that baby in that car couldn't get in.

They decided to call for help.

Like you see every detail land on him, back and forth and back and forth.

Even the disappointment in the face of the guy closing the door of the ambulance.

It was so subtle but like, and I'm sure it wasn't even intentional.

It was just some guy that was shutting the door of the ambulance.

But he had this look on his face that was like, Oh, what a shame.

This is terrible, this is terror.

And the woman, the woman with that dark bob looking around like, oh, who could've done this?

You know, you just it.

They just poured gasoline on that shame fire.

It was so well done.

And you know what I found myself fixating on was the fact that he had a bottle of booze in his hand, and the optics of that it was weird.

My first thought was, you got to set that bottle down behind car that's right next to you.

You can't show up to this with booze.

Even though I know he's not an alcoholic, He's not drunk that day, Nothing doesn't matter.

The optics are so horrible that you can't show up to leaving your baby in the car carrying a bottle of whiskey like CPS will be all with you get say goodbye to your child if that happens.

This is also one of the things I find so interesting and what makes me so grateful to be part of this weird circus.

We're all in.

You know, if you had seen man leaves baby in car blah blah on Twitter, short form, post some something online, the how dare him?

Kim?

He's the worst dad?

Oh my god, the discourse we would be judging, everyone would be judging.

It would blow up somewhere.

And the amazing thing about TV and film is you get to know someone and you don't lose sight of their humanity when they make a mistake or they fail.

You root for people despite you know, we love we love Brooke, we love.

Peyton, we love Lucas.

If we had read the TLDR about that love triangle and that betrayal, we would hate them.

And it's like, I don't know, there's something really special.

I think about being able to represent things on camera that can encourage us to take a breath and be a little more graceful with other people.

Yeah, good storytelling all time.

Yeah, And even that thing of being like you got to get rid of that man because we know you, but we know how it's gonna look like.

That's so generous And I think I'm really touched by it because it feels like the world is less and less generous these days, everything is like quick and horrible.

And mean, and I don't know.

I love being part of something that lets our people be so human even when they fail, Even when parts of the episode are so bad, I'm still like man art does.

Good things for people.

Yeah.

Yeah, also to I have to call myself out.

The last thing that is in my list is all the details of this scene, and then I go interesting.

This is an episode of man fails.

All the men fail.

Mouth is fat and failing, Julian is apparently a drunk even though he's not and failing.

The only man who doesn't fail in this episode is Dan Scott's Chris Keller.

Did he ever fail?

But even Chris is a mess in the kitchen he was a monster, That's true, That's true, He's a fail.

He almost burns the cafe down, Clay's buying drugs like, all of the men are unhinged, and the only man who doesn't fail is damn Scott.

Yeah, and still we have to set a boundary.

There was ever a time for the female characters in Wontrey Hill to just leave their significant others and start like a new life on a compound or you know, start a coming.

Yeah, it was this episode.

Yeah, oh man, it is so funny to me.

All right, we have a user question.

Oh, Isabelle's asking if you've ever been a part of a storyline that resonated so deeply with you that you found yourself wishing it could happen in real life for you.

Oh thanks Isabella.

Wow.

I mean, who doesn't want a Nathan and Haley kind of relationship?

Who doesn't want to just love that lasts for so long, kids are happy and healthy.

Okay, there's the occasional kidnapping by the serbian moment, but you know, overall, I would say that's a big winner.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Yeah.

I have to say from my experience on One Tree Hill, no, Clay has a lot of not so great things.

Yeah, there have been other ones.

I'm like, this would be fun, but Clay.

You want Clay's car.

I mean, listen, if anything will take Clay's happy ending, I know where Clay eventually gets.

Yeah, so I would, I will.

I'll take you know, contentment and fulfillment with his his wife and his child.

Yeah.

I feel like you built that for yourself.

I did think you and Jenny really have done that.

Yeah, so sweet?

Oh, it makes me want to cry.

How about you?

So you know, even though.

It's really weird, I have a I have a big swing on how I feel about Brook's journey into being a mom because I love I love that we were talking in like twenty ten, twenty eleven on a hit TV show about how hard it can be for some people to start a family, Like even now, so much of the conversation around fertility and miscarriage and all of these things is very stigmatized.

I mean, my god, like you look at even what's happening like with the law and the way we like punish women and families.

It's it's hard.

And I feel really proud that basically fifteen years ago we chose to talk about this on the show, and it makes me sad that we also like cartoonified it in the end.

And it was like she could never do it, and then she did it, nobody knows how, and not only did she do.

It, she got two babies.

Like we we started to really have a serious conversation, and then we like we buttoned it up in a way that felt a little too squeaky clean to me, and I know to a lot of women it's it's been pretty profound to have so many people share their the depth of their fertility journeys with me.

It's like one of the things that I am the most grateful for about having played Brooke Davis.

So it's weird.

It's like, I want everyone in whatever way it works for them, whether they finally get there with IVF, whether they adopt, whether whether they become you know, aunties or uncles to someone like, however life gives you the family that you want.

I want that for everyone, and I feel I feel like it's both I feel so proud of that storyline and I wish we'd been a little more truthful about it and even getting Brooke to the point that she has these two little boys with Julian.

I wish we really are understood more of it, but I also know that we couldn't because we thought season eight was going to be the end, so we did our whole pregnancy in one episode.

So it's like, I love it, and I.

Wish we'd leaned into to the honesty of it a little more because I know how much it's meant to so many people, myself included, to have done it at all, And I you know, if I got to be the writer, or if I got to know that we were going to actually do these thirteen episodes of season nine, I would have wanted us to tell a little bit more of the truth about that.

Both and yes, you know, well a week, let's do it.

What are we going to get today?

Most likely to get caught sneaking into a concert?

Real, I don't know.

Get caught, not just to sneak in, but get caught sneaking in.

Oh, if it's get caught, I'm going to say, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, for sure?

That tracks yeah, yeah, because I'm like Peyton probably snuck into a million concerts.

She wasn't getting caught.

She always looked like she was supposed to be there.

Yeah.

And character Chris Keller, for sure is getting caught sneaking in.

Yeah, that's a point.

Yeah, but then it ends up hooking up with the cop who arrested him.

Totally.

All right, gang join us next week for season nine, episode four, don't you want to share the guilt?

Here we go, We'll see.

Hey, thanks for listening, don't forget to leave us a review.

You can also follow us on Instagram at drama Queen's o t.

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