Hey, everyone, it's Sophia.

Welcome to Work in Progress.

Welcome back to Work in Progress this week friends, happy holidays.

As a gift to you, I have one of my best friends coming on the podcast today.

We are joined by none other than Rory Uphold.

You see her on Instagram at I Could Be Blonder.

She's either giving you incredible advice on dating life or skincare.

She is an incredible writer and creative who I've been lucky enough to call my friend family for almost two decades now, and she's here to talk about her new best selling book, A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating.

What is a final Girl, you ask, Yes, She's a popular horror movie trope, the movie's soul survivor, the last one standing to confront the killer, the only one left to tell the tale, and the one you root for.

She is all of us friends.

With her signature wit, vulnerability, and voice, Rory is inviting you to survive and thrive as the final girl of your own love story.

Let's dive in with Rory Uphold.

I like that you're in the hut seat now.

Yeah, because I did the first season of your podcast.

Thank you you were you were episode two.

I was too, but you were the first one I ever recorded.

It was fun, It was very fun.

Yeah, when we talked about the orgasm gap, people really liked.

That and that gap is wide.

Well, now we're going to talk about your best selling a book us before we jump into this for our friends at home who might be like, what's going on?

Why are these.

Two women just shooting the show?

Friends and guests.

We happen to be here today with one of my best friends.

Rory Uphold is here.

You have listened to me on her wonderful podcast, Crimes of the Heart.

She just wrote this incredible book, A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating, which we have discussed online.

But we're going to.

Discuss on the show today.

But before we do that, and we definitely tell some stories that will wind up on the cutting room floor because they're just for us and not for the people.

Sorry, I'm not sorry.

I want to go backwards because we've been friends for like a decade and I your producer.

Just asked me that.

She was like, how long have you guys known each other?

And I said, I don't know, like twenty.

Ten, I think twenty twelve.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I'd have to really go back into like.

I'd have to actually go through my camera role to figure it out, which I don't even know if I would know how to do?

You have to go back to homyphones right?

How phones back?

Yeah, I don't know.

It's been a minute, It's been a very long time.

I'm I'm going to settle on a decade and a half.

I think it's about there.

But I'm furious.

That you haven't been in my life since birth because I feel cheated, and I'm so glad you've been here for fifteen years.

But I want to know if our adult selves got to hang when they were little, like eight or nine years old, what would the vibe have been.

Oh, I was like, yeah, I think we would have liked to show a hundred percent we would have.

But who was rory?

I'm a little kid.

I fear for whoever was you know, with us, because I have a feeling you and I would have been running like no, no, no, no, the playhouse needs to be built this way.

Yeah, please do.

That be like that's two in the sun mood in the shade.

No, I was I wasn't into sun protection until later in life.

I used to be like, so tan, you wouldn't even recognize me.

Yeah, yeah, I had white hair, super super tan, like the color of your tack it.

But yeah, by on my phone I would show you a photo.

It's crazy.

The palest, most sun protected friend was in the sun as a child.

Wow, yes, yes, And my mom was always really dialed in on that.

But it wasn't until I got malasma that I got hashi motos and then I quickly developed malasma.

And the two really do go hand in hand because of the relationship with hashimotos and the liver and how estrogen gets processed and malasmas related to estrogen.

But nobody knew this when I got diagnosed.

I was just told, oh, you have malasma, can't be cured, and that's that's it.

And so then I was like on my own to try and figure out all this out, which is how I became so obsessive about all.

Of this stuff.

Guys, if you have a question about dating or medicine, royce or girl.

Maybe well if you have like weird ronic illnesses that others can't stare out or skin related stuff, because those are the two things that I feel like I've had to really overcome.

Yeah.

Yeah, but what about it acame at eight?

Set the scene for me?

What was the vibe?

What were you into?

What did your days look.

Like at eight?

Well?

I was really gosh okay wait at eight okay?

Or maybe the way to ask the question is do you think if you could interact with your eight or nine year old self, would you see some of the traits of your adult self in her?

Yes, Although I feel like that question always makes me really sad because I think something that happens in life to all of us is that as we get older, we get beaten down.

Yeah, and we collect trauma and baggage, and that there was like a sparkle and a joy and an innocence that I had back then that I don't have anymore.

And that part makes me sad.

Yeah.

Working on that with my somatic therapist.

We were talking about that.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

I just think that, like, okay, I put it this way, So imagine you get into a car accident in an intersection, like you're going through a green light and a car from the other direction t bones you.

Right.

The next time you go through that intersection, you're probably gonna be scared, and maybe it's just all intersections where you're like, this wasn't supposed to happen, and it came out of nowhere and it totaled my car and it injured me and whatever.

That would be normal people wouldn't look at you twice, but don't.

We don't have the same sort of treatment when it comes to emotional hurts and relationships.

And so many people have t boned me in my personal life.

And that's sort of what I mean.

When I was eight, Like I didn't know that I was in for like a world of hurt, yeah, And I didn't know that I would be as resilient as I am in all of those things.

But I think sometimes when I think about going back to the younger version of myself, that's the part where I'm like, oh my god, yeah that was exciting because like I just believed in fairy tales and hope and all of these things, and I still do, but it's on top of a lot of deprogramming and reprogramming.

Absolutely, it's not as pure, Yes, that.

Was the word that came to mind for me.

It's so pure before you know, and it's not that you can't cultivate magic or joy or sparkle, but we are were imprinted by loss and suffering and all of those things.

And I was talking about this the other day, thinking about, you know, the holiday with family and just being like, man, I'm so I'm so grateful and this was so hard one.

And I think there's a there's an element of how deeply I cherish things in my life because of how hard they were to get to.

Yeah, And there's no way to not be like shaped by the hard.

One hundred percent.

And I think that that's, Yeah, that's sort of what I That's what I meant.

Yeah, is it?

Is it that thing, like that kind of connective tissue that you can draw across time?

When you started thinking about how to use the hard for something?

Did it?

When?

Did it morph into the idea of being like a horror movie.

Oh oh with with love and dating?

Because I didn't say like, yeah, I always wrote as a kid, like when high school got rough.

Yeah, I have.

Hundreds of journals and diaries and I wish I had hundreds.

I would go through one a.

Week full a full, yeah.

And I was the ahead of your book and the head of photography, so I was never without a camera, videotaped my entire senior year.

People just like, let me do.

That, so you just haven't.

So I was just, yeah, just just have all of this stuff.

So I was always used to like documenting and when things would get rough, like I would just write it all out.

So I think that was always an outlet.

But then I don't know the way.

There was a couple things like I had been the person that had these like wild, crazy stories.

I've always been really comfortable talking about sex or things that most people kind of shy away from, Like I'm like, oh, let's talk.

About that, like I'm curious, let's dive in there.

And then also some of my experiences like really shaped future relationships.

And so that piece coupled with what I was seeing in media, like the way people talk about dating.

It's a horror show.

It's a nightmare.

It's a healthscape.

And I thought this is crazy because we say till death do us part in marriage.

Yeah, I fell in love, she took my breath away.

Those are horrific statements.

Even an orgasm means a little death in French.

So there's this weird, like intertwined relationship between love and death in the way that we speak about it, and I thought, yeah, that's crazy that I've never seen that played with.

And so I kept kind of teasing that out and thinking I can do something with that, and then terms like ghosting, orbiting, zombieing, all of that came into the forefront bed death and I realized like, oh, okay, yeah, I just need to like now go through my experiences and figure it out, because I've definitely dated.

Some like serial killers of love.

And you know, like had me kind of yeah, like horrific experiences.

And then the more that I dug, the more I realized, Wow, like the interplay between kind of love and death is really close, just even in like the history of werewolves as a.

As lore and like you say more about that, Well, they're.

Cursed creatures and sometimes they're the victims and sometimes they're the villains in the same way way that like, you know, zombies were regular people before they were bitten by another zombie.

R hurt people, hurt people, this idea of that.

Yeah, and and then horror just as a as a as a genre has always been used as a metaphor, right, like most people I think at this point of seeing get out I would I could use like other classics, but you know, get Out is obviously a metaphor for racism.

Uh So I was Dawn of the Dead.

Uh and there and and and like it follows was definitely an examination of sex and STIs And I think that it's really interesting to me that this genre gets used as a metaphor and I wanted to do the same and the idea of the final girl.

Carol Clover came up with that term because male.

Audience, well audiences in general, don't identify with scared men.

So in order for a horror movie to work, we need to root for the person who survives, right, right, And if you think about your favorite horror movie or a horror movie that you know, if you don't like horror, think about the survivor.

It's generally a woman.

Yeah, the final girl, the girl who survives in the end.

And that's because the movie doesn't work if it's a man, because audience.

She noticed that audiences didn't really relate to a scared or screaming or terrified male.

They were more apt to relate to the killer.

And that just doesn't work in terms of like the filmmaker needs you to root for the person who's going to survive, and that I think says volumes about the book about dating, about everything, and just like how we as a society view gender and sexuality and relationships and marriage.

And once I started to dig into that, I really realized, like personally, a lot of my problems stemmed from the fact that I grew up in a really complicated patriarchal society where like bubblegum misogyny was like peaking when I was coming into my sexuality.

It was very confusing, this idea of like what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a sexy woman, or wanted, what successful relationships look like, just marriage, kids, all of it.

Yeah, it is a really interesting thing to think about, Like this notion of being wanted, Like of all the words that you just said to me, that jumps out because we grew up in the era where like the greatest thing you could be was chosen.

Oh, we were never taught so dark.

To choose yes, And that has been Like I would say, there are a handful of things that I wanted to do with my book, and one of the at the very top was to teach women stop trying to be chosen and learn how to choose, because you really are the decision maker, even though we grew up in a world that has like conditioned you to believe that you need to be picked.

Yeah, everything from like the way that dating books speak to women.

Why do men love bitches?

I don't know, I don't give a I don't like, I don't care.

Like I stopped trying to perform for men right Like that is the thing that just drove me nuts.

Like I looked at all of these dating books and realized they all had that in common.

It was like predicated on the belief that women needed to be a certain way in order to get the love that they wanted.

And I just fundamentally don't believe that's true.

But where do you think the shift came from in me?

Or Yeah, because we've all listen, like our group of friends, our generation, our friends' friends, everyone is having to, as you said earlier, unlearn a lot.

And I know I said this to you recently, but you know, personal example, for the friends at home, I realized, even when I thought I was choosing for a lot of my life, I was choosing from the options I was given.

It was very much like here's four works, pick one, and like there's a whole ikia full of forks, Like there's hundreds of thousands of forks.

What do you mean I get to choose from four?

Yeah.

Like, I think sometimes in our generation, certainly what we've believed were our choices were also kind of an illusion.

So we seek out what's familiar.

And when you grow up in a world that is only showing you certain types of love, it might be hard to imagine that there's a.

Different love outside of that.

And I think the more that I learned about, like neuroplasticity, brain chemistry, rewiring your I call them inner demons because that fits with the book, but some people call them limiting beliefs, the negative thoughts that hold you back the story that you're telling yourself.

A lot of that stuff is predicated on like experiences you had, but also what you grew up with, and part of it is giving your brain new data, new information to create new beliefs, right, So I think it's a little bit of that.

And then also it was recent it was me realizing like, oh, yeah, women have had fifty years of financial and bodily autonomy, financial freedom and bodily autonomy and that has like had cataclysmic results in both good and bad ways.

I mean like bad depending on who you are.

You know, if you're a man that is under the men really don't like it, and you're single, you know, and you are claiming male loneliness epidemic, then yeah, I can understand why you might be bummed.

But like, in the seventies, ninety percent of women in their thirties were married, and now thirty percent I think maybe it's thirty two thirty thirty two percent, So you're telling me in fifty years close to sixty percent of women decided I'm good on marriage.

Guys.

There's that.

That's yeah, those are crazy numbers.

Yeah, And so I think there's like a huge shift.

And I credit a lot of it to my parents and therapy and introspection and just curiosity.

Yeah, and also kepting my ass handed to me.

Well, that's one of the things that as your friend, I'm also so impressed by, and like I get that clenchy, like, oh, there are things you put in this book.

It's so funny and it's so painful, and it's so eye opening and it's so vulnerable, Like.

Was it so scary?

How did you decide what went in the book?

Like walk us through how this happens.

You start to realize, Okay, the way we talk about these things, the weird mementomory of love and dating and all of it really does sound like a horror movie.

We've all been in the horror movies.

Like when the idea starts to crystallize, how do you actually begin this and how do you decide what to put in the book.

It's so interesting because when I first said the idea, I told my manager who's no longer my manager, and he did didn't get it, and.

I tried to.

I tried to talk about it to a couple of people and they didn't get it.

And it made me realize, like, oh, I'm really going to have to to like dig deep and figure out a way to make this crystal clear, because like I felt it, I saw it, but I couldn't articulate it in a way that it lead the people were gravitating toward or understanding interesting.

So that was like part one.

And then I just started writing and I didn't know what it was going to be, and it was just like a collection of stories.

And then I worked with my friend Sophie Flack, who sometimes works with people on books, like on a book by book basis, and I had this essay that is now Monsters about how I went on a very bad date to Halloween horror Night and I realized that, like, and I hate being scared because I have, I've been attacked.

So the thought of like paying a bunch of money to recreate that trauma, like literal worst nightmare and what.

But you know, the guy that I was dating was like, I'll be there for like a whole your hand, It'll be fine whatever, And I'm like, I was at a phase of my life where being single seems scarier than Halloween hornites.

So I just did it, and like that's on me, That really is on me.

That's on being a blonde in the horror movie.

So I like kept walking down that dark hallway and then what he left me, Like he left me I had to walk through the park by myself.

The experience was so horrific, so traumatic.

The biggest monster was one hundred percent my date.

But the scariest thing was like how much of a willing participant I was.

And in writing about this, Sophie was like, this could be the whole book, and I knew that that wasn't it.

But as I was driving like one day, it just hit and it just kind of all crystallized.

And then it was just cataloging the stories and figuring out, Okay, this is this this is this monster.

These are these stories, and like, these.

Are these lessons and this is what I can give to people.

And when I wrote it, I honestly made a rule that like I was going to write it as if no one was ever going to read it and be as honest and vulnerable, because what's the point like for me, Like I didn't write this book for any other reason than I really did genuinely want to help people.

Yeah, and you can't like hold back.

Oh it's so hard though.

Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

There's a few things I think about.

There's like a few buckets of experience.

There's the one weird thing where for some reason, as women were supposed to just like get over everything, but also everything that happens to you shapes you.

You know.

Then there's this idea that if you have done the work to actually get over something and you are reflective about it, that like you're not letting it go or you're obsessed and you're like, no, I've literally processed it.

I can talk about it like a grocery list, like I'm giving you my grocery list.

And then there's also there's the fear I think of letting people into heartache, hurt, and on top of that vulnerability.

It's part of the key to me is in what you just said about going to that Halloween horrorights, it's oh, I was a willing participant in this.

That's the worst part.

Like the worst part is having to go, oh, I ignored my gut when or I got talked into compromising because that's the mature thing to do, and really I was compromising myself.

Like what I've had.

To realize going through my own version of your book, reading your book, and you know, going through life is like, oh, I have to own where I put up with that.

I have to own where I let myself be treated that way.

I have to own where I went back for more thinking I could fix it, and like I was a participant in my own erasure or torture or silence or harm.

Yeah, even even sometimes just being good, like being a good girl.

Which is a huge thing for you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

I think the thing is, though, it's like, so accountability is like one of the absolute superpowers of any final Girl.

And by the way, anybody can be a final girl.

That's the genderless title in my opinion.

But the thing is is that on the other side of realizing your participation is the the answer.

And it's like, underneath, you know, wanting to be good is probably I'm just I'm gonna just like I guess, wanting to be loved, And then underneath that is that love is conditional.

And when you realize, oh I have a fear that love.

Is conditional, you can work on that.

Yeah, and I have love it.

Love is conditional.

Was it is a thing for me, But it was more in being good enough and being hot enough or pretty enough or palatable enough, like all of these things.

So the thing is is if you don't take the accountability piece, which is very hard and very embarrassing, like there are a lot of very embarrassing things that I did and wrote about.

Yeah, but that's because if I share my embarrassing things, maybe you'll share your embarrassing things.

And then and then no one has to be embarrassed.

A and B, then you can do something with it, Like, you know, if you're if if you're so afraid of being the villain and someone else's story or being the villain in your story, then like you might never actually get to heal, And then.

What's the pointof Well, you make a lot of points in this book, my dear.

One of the things I think is really interesting about it is you go so far to deconstruct shame your own and how as readers, and to encourage us to do the same as you were just saying.

I like that you talk not just about like surviving the horrors, but you talk about thriving in a modern love landscape.

So doing this kind of inventory, taking this kind of accountability, also reading some people for philth who deserved it.

How do you now think about love?

Like to you on the other side of all of this, what is a modern love landscape?

Oh that's so interesting.

Well, I think the crazy thing about that is that my answer will be different than yours, which will be different than anybody's.

And like, that's the most important part is that instead of growing up in a world where we were all taught like love looks like this and this is what is successful that ultimately it's about really going inward and figuring out, like, what is your version of.

Happily ever after?

Hey, that would be my official answer.

Yeah, And then I think, like for me personally, like I grew up with parents who are still married, you know.

I grew up with the father who.

Comes home with flowers just because he wants to make my mom happy, and who on their twenty fifth wedding anniversary reproposed with the ring twice the size and asked for another twenty five years of marriage without anyone's help.

Like, I also grew up with the man that gave my mom a salary to be a mom.

You know.

I grew up in a really traditional, meet very progressive household.

Yeah.

So my ideas of love and feminism are a little like different, and I one hundred percent believe it's out there.

I know that it exists, and I will say that after writing this book, I do think that my relationships have improved and I haven't had any kind of like horrifying stories since.

I love that you.

Say this has really changed the trajectory of your dating life.

Hmmm, it's like that thing about you can't like you can't heal what you can't see, and I think.

Can't tame what you can't name.

Yes, I like, I.

Think you writing this book was such an excavation of self.

I'm curious why on the other side of it, you think that heartbreak can be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Because you'll never have more inertia in your life than after you have your heart broken.

And sometimes like we fail to start over and we need someone to restart us, like it's a full reboote.

And I think that when you can understand that life happens for you, not to you, you can start to really rewrite your own story and like step into your power in your future.

But again, that's so much.

Easier to do when you have like all of the momentum and inertia that heartbreak brings.

Like nothing will level set your life in that way.

That's it's it's a kind of loss.

And like heartbreak also goes with death, right, Like you can feel heartbroken.

Sometimes breakups are because they've quite literally left earth, we don't necessarily call them breakups, but like that is a part of it, right, Yeah, And you are never going to love without loss.

That's the that's the gamble.

Yeah, and just knowing that it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity to like reset, and we would never choose that because as humans were wired for comfort.

Yes, so you're never going to like decide to throw yourself into the most uncomfortable, destabilizing circumstances of your life.

But if you can get on board with that, you'll the most powerful.

Changes on the other side of that.

And I think that that's really exciting, which is not to like toxic positivity, like a terrible situation.

Yeah, obviously it can still suck and it can be awful, but you can take the suck and the awful and turn it into something that becomes your whole life.

Like I never would have written this book if I hadn't had my heart broken.

And that's not because of what the contents of that book.

It's that like, right before we met, I thought I was getting married and spoiler that did not.

That did not happen.

But in the aftermath of what was arguably one of the most traumatic experiences of my life, I wrote my first short film and I had been in music.

Yeah, and I had a whole career writing in TV and books and all of this other stuff that I never would have had.

Yeah, I probably would have stayed writing music and that would have been or.

Who knows thats what I would have done, But like I probably wouldn't made you.

I mean, I don't know who I would have missed out on mee day, missed out on dating.

I was also like at a film festival for that short film that I made that I met my next boyfriend who I dated and lived with for like three years and who isn't in this book because he's not a monster.

And you know what I mean, Like, there's there's so many things that came from that that never would have happened.

Like I just I just wouldn't be here.

Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a really good lens because you know, when when we talked at the top of the hour about how it's kind of hard to look at our sweet little, pure, never heartbroken selves, it's also like the things that happened do propel you into purpose, into a future that was more meant for you.

And you know, sometimes I think, like, oh, it would have been nice if it didn't have to be so intense, Like I would have preferred to have not been dragged here like the PG version.

But at the same time, it's like I also, I think when you're really happy where you you are, you wouldn't want to risk missing it to like fix something before you know, I don't know.

It's something I sort of toy with a lot.

I try to figure out the things that are still the hardest for me to think about or.

Carry.

Like I every so often I'm like, if I can figure out a way to be thankful for that, if I can figure out a way to understand that, like it is part of the sum total of what's good.

Also, it's like it's sort of a tortuous exercise, but I do try.

It's yes, And Okay, everybody that's listening right now, think of one thing that you've wanted to change.

There's something, there's something that you want to change.

It's either a skill you want to learn, something about yourself, a work thing, a friend thing.

And I'm talking about the thing that you've actually wanted to do this whole year, maybe the last five years, maybe the last ten years.

Well, why haven't you done it?

Yeah, that's not a judgment.

That's just a Sometimes breakup sometimes that hurt, that pain can be the catalyst to finally do the thing.

Yes, And that's I think what we're speaking about.

That like pain is awful and growth is really hard, and nobody's going to actively choose that.

Yeah, but when you're given Oh it's like that Mary oli our poem, like I realize one box of darkness.

I realized that too is a gift.

And it's like that, that's what that's what we're talking about.

Yeah, absolutely, And it's it's big stuff.

It's like it's heavy and.

And we're not taught at I wasn't.

Uh, not at all.

We are taught to model things that aren't even real half the time, like I and I, you know, I think about this all the time.

Like I pursued a perfect model of what I thought happiness was to fix what I'd missed in my life and my childhood and to like keel my you know, generational inheritances and whatever.

And then I was like, oh, this is this isn't that, this is this is actually more of what I was trying to heal.

And it was a very traumatic.

I don't want to like use the trauma word too much.

It was a very unsettling, like it was sort of like being in an earthquake on the inside.

You know, it really destabilizing, Yes, very destabilizing, very confusing, and also really profound.

And I needed to know that the thing I had subconsciously, you know, in conditioning and all of it believed was the answer.

Wasn't that?

Like that my joy is the only answer, Like, the only thing that's going to bring joy into my life is actually finding joy.

I can't build it.

I have to find it.

Yeah, you know you can.

You can work toward it, you but you have to like, you can't build it like you can build a house.

It's not a thing.

Oh, I know, I've tried.

Oh haven't we tried?

And that it's It's something I love about you and I love about our friendship is I can have the deepest conversations with you and also the most inappropriate, hilarious.

Conversations with you.

Like there are things I have said to Rory you guys that I'm like, well, we're carrying this to the grave, And you have a term in your book that makes me cackle.

So for our friends that are like, give me a moment of levity, please, can you talk to people about the perils of dixand oh oh yes, yes, tell the people what Dick Sand is.

Okay, So Dick Sand there's a whole chapter in the book.

And I feel like I grew up like obsessed with quicksand thinking like, oh got at any moment, the world underneath me could just like sink.

And then I found out now when I was writing this book that it's actually not real, Like you won't die in quicksand unless you appen to get in quicksand in a flood or something like crazy like that.

It's just not something that you're going to die from.

But Dick Sand might kill you.

Dickxand is the relationship equivalent of that.

So I talk about the four different types, and it's like textual relationships any kind of digmatization, chronic breakups, things like that.

So relationships that keep you stagnant, like forward motion progress is the goal.

And look, sometimes you want to date somebody just because you want to date somebody, and like that's fine.

But if you are saying that knowing that you also actually do want to like have kids or get married or move in together, and you're in this casual thing, well, like that's you're actually not in alignment.

And what you're doing is just wasting time.

Yeah, and nothing hurts more than getting out of a situationship and looking back and being like, wow, that.

Was too years of my life that most crazy.

Huh.

I can't get those two years back.

Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors that thing you said to the chronic breakups, like, I don't.

I'm really trying.

To think of if I know anyone who's gone through a breakup and then gone back and been happy about it.

I can think of one person.

Ooh okay, yeah, there's always an exception to one person.

Yes, yes, it's like but rarely.

And think about this.

There is a protocol for when you break your arm, right, yeah, you said it, and it heals, and if it doesn't, then it's a chronic break Now, I'm like, if a doctor is listening to this, they're going to be like, this is not really the terms that we use, because my sister who's an NP, was like, that's not super accurate.

It's just like let me go, please, yeah, please please.

But if something isn't making progress healing within five to six weeks, it's considered like problematic.

And I think the same thing is true of breakups.

And actually studies show that the initial sting wears off around six weeks.

But we don't have like a proto call for how to set a broken heart.

We don't have like standard procedures.

I think no contact is like really important.

I think like you have to I talk about throwing a funeral and building some of these systems in place to help you heal, because otherwise it does become kind of infected, it does become this like malignant chronic break, and it'll create like a deformity on your heart.

But think about it, like we don't really have You have to be your own kind of physician and the person that is setting your emotional heartbreak because otherwise, like your brain wants to protect you from making the same mistake.

Yes, so it will repeat memories and stories.

And if you got ghosted, well that's.

Even that's even worse because you're going to be trying to search for an answer or reason why something that you missed, which is really just like a lot of self torture.

Because the reality is like when somebody ghosts, it's never a reflection of you.

It's always a reflection of them.

It's their inability to have an uncomfortable conversation, which is truly tragic.

That's why we're in a communication crisis.

Like you got to be able to have uncomfortable conversations even if this isn't the person you want to be with.

Well, what happens when you are with the person you want to be with?

But you've practiced, because all relationships are as practice, And so if the way that you practice is by ghosting or avoiding, that's only going to be perpetuated in the relationships that you actually do care about.

Anyway, I have like really sidetracked, But no.

I love that.

But how do you think how do people start?

Like how do you start learning to really speak up?

Because I know, at least for women, you know, we're always so worried about like saying too many things, having too many complaints.

Being a nag, like those sort of tropes.

So like having done as much research as you have and having had as many experiences as you have, like, how do you encourage people to start shifting those paradigms.

So first it's like with yourself.

You can practice with yourself before you practice with others.

I in the advice part of Werewolves, it's I talk about like agency and learning how to say no.

And for some people who are really like huge, huge people pleasers, which this relates to having uncomfortable conversations, but huge people pleasers, just saying no when somebody asks you do you want to receive or would you.

Like to see a dessert menu?

That might feel really risky, so start there.

For other people, it might be a lie more advanced, like when your coworkers ask you to go get drinks after or your friend says, hey, do you want to get dinner or something.

Learning how to say no to people that you care about or dynamics that feel kind of scary, and just practicing that muscle.

And maybe you need to have a script like an actor where you recite the lines until it's like in your bones, in your body.

There's different kind of tactics to practice that.

And then I think, you know, bravery encourage is a muscle.

Yeah, you're not going to build it like overnight.

I mean I wish, but it's it's just small steps incrementally.

So it is identifying I feel really uncomfortable in this relationship, whether it's a friendship or a romantic situation, and getting really clear with yourself, like you don't need the other person.

To do that.

Why and what is it And if.

I could take all of the repercussions off the table, what is it that I would say and write that down and then think about whether or not you have the car to say that, and if you do, do your best to try and put it into like an eye statement and not use statements, and do your best to shift it so that you take all of the vulnerability and the accountability.

Where I could say, like, it really makes me uncomfortable when or I know this wasn't personal, but it really hurt my feelings when I wasn't invited to this thing and I saw you with all of our friends and I just I know that that's probably silly, but I wanted to express that because it's how I've been feeling, you know, and I love you, and it.

Just makes me feel bad.

Sometimes, Yeah, that.

Could be scary, but also then you give that person the opportunity to say, oh my gosh, actually that was like really last minute, we didn't even plan that.

And by the way, this is truly off the top of my head.

I have no idea that scenario might sound silly or stupid to somebody, but you, sometimes we rob our friendships and our relationships the opportunity to show up for us because we're too afraid to say the thing that is scary.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a really big lesson.

Is not wanting to be a bother can actually be such an isolating.

Behavior because bother to who?

Yeah, you don't know if it bothers me at all?

Yeah?

Right, it's so interesting And I think you know, certainly true in friendships, certainly something that needs practice to your point in relationships, Like, what do you think that is about?

Do you think the fear of speaking up or expressing need falls under that the less I need the more the more I might be chosen, the more appealing I might be.

Yeah.

Look, I have like a kind of a hot take that I think is I don't know, maybe will be disagree, disagree if you'd like.

I just think that women have been conditioned to.

Be palatable to men and to perform a certain way in order to be loved, and that I do think marriage is dei for men, or has been for a really long time.

That's not to say that it can't be great or that you can't have a great one.

And like, yeah, honestly good on you, Like that's so amazing.

But I really do think that just even in the way that like think about rom coms, what do all rom coms have in common?

Well, somebody does something kind of messed up and they break up, and then one of them makes a grand gesture, realizes they can't live without each other, and they get back together.

So what does that do.

It's basically conditioned us for romantic disappointment, for romantic pain.

Yeah, and to excuse it.

Yeah.

And I know that that, Like there's various realm comms where maybe that doesn't make sense, but also just the trope of like you can be successful in work but not in love, and those things kind of like get into our brain and that becomes information that we store and it plays into stories that we have.

So then maybe you're a boss at work, but you've had trouble with your romantic life, and then all of a sudden you're like, well, see, I guess I'm just that girl yeap when that girl was written by a bunch of men in a writer's room, you know, forty years ago.

Like it's just yes, I really do think that a lot of it is conditioning, Like the whole idea of what a slut is the fact that we don't have there's a himbo.

But like other than that, it's really like a word for that.

You're a boss, you're a player, you know, and those are seen as good things.

But for a woman, you're run through, you're a whore, you're used up like trashy, all of these things.

Why do you think we're taught to fear slueds?

Do you think that that's just men because it's running your cabric of the patriarchy, say more about it.

It just does.

I mean, chastity has its roots in religion and on agriculture really.

And agriculture and the fabric of society.

I mean, the whole idea of the Salem witch trials goes back to, yes, agriculture, but also the patriarchy.

The puritanical, patriarchal nature of the society at that time was being threatened by outside stressors like smallpox, famine, and indigenous people were finally fighting back against colonization, and so it was weakening those structures.

So then all of a sudden anybody could claim which and they did, and that tightened the women have always paid the price and they'd take their land, and.

Then they would take their land.

And that's how the agricul Yes, that's how the agricultural piece fits into it.

But women have always paid the price for the shortcomings of the patriarchy.

And I think we've really seen that a lot in sexuality.

Yeah, and so if women are made to feel shame and made to feel smaller around sexuality, it's easier to control.

Because also, if you can control the birth rate, you can control the economy.

If you can't control the birth rate, you can't control the economy.

So a lot of the things that we feel are so much bigger than just the shame of like the Walk of shame, right, the Walk of shame is about the larger structures of society staying in place.

It is about the economy, It is about the patriarchy.

And I know that that sounds so hyperbolic, but it's the truth.

And I think once you understand that, I'm not saying you have to like rail against it.

And like, here's the thing, I still want to get married.

Is that like the dumbest financial decision of my life?

Yeah?

Probably, whatever, I mean, Like, ask any divorce lawyer.

They'll be like, yeah, it's really not a smart move.

Still, I still believe in love.

I still believe in all of these things, but I come at it from a totally different perspective.

And I refuse to be held in a prison that is shame because that shame isn't mine.

Yeah, I collected that from other people, from other stories, that those aren't mine.

Well, other people put it around your neck.

I will never forget this.

I interviewed Monica Lewinsky recently, and she is so lovely.

Oh yeah, like, she's so lovely and god, I enjoy her company.

And I was reading a bunch of older articles trying to kind of contextualize what it was like before I knew her, and how the world treats her.

And she had written an article for Vanity Fair and she talked about how people will hang she called it the scarlet albatross around your neck, and once they've put it there, it's almost impossible to take it off.

And she's done an incredible job at removing that.

But society also finally started to catch up.

Well, yes, and society has started to catch up and has started to say, oh, we treat women so terribly, all of them, by the way, and that is a universal truth.

And there's also a reality that if she starts doing too well for society's liking, they bring it up about her down.

Yes, if someone has a big successful moment, let's bring up this sty thing a man did to her, or that she was put through or And now I'm talking about you know, so many more of us, and I think that there's something.

I just think that there's something about it.

It's not the job we should be doing, having to refuse other people's shame, but it is I think incredibly important work for us to do, and for more and more women to do, to maybe turn the tides.

I have my brain is like I want to say four hundred things at one time.

That's not going to be humanly possible.

I think that if you don't push through shame, you're going to have a really hard time accessing your pleasure.

So that's a conversation about sex.

I think that we were raised and taught to blame other women for men's behavior.

I certainly was.

It's the idea of a Monica Lewinsky.

It's the idea of a fem fatale getting government secrets out of men.

The thought of you know, which is like just all of that.

And I think we also live in a world where everything is driven by clicks, and that is kind of not the most important, but the most salacious tag of her life.

Yes, and so I think there's so many things.

It's happening people can use her for for one hundred percent gain.

And like there's someone in our industry who has a you know, big show, series of shows that like, I just won't do anymore because it was a not once but twice, and I was like, there are so many more interesting things about me than something a guide did to me once.

I am not.

I just won't be in this environment anymore.

And I think shifting those things, like you said it, we're taught to fear or obsess about, or villainize women the other woman rather than the man making the decision.

I mean, we just yeah, we just had like a wild holiday when a friend of ours realized that another woman in like part of my story is in the friend group and in my house at the holiday party.

I love our friendship.

I love the friendship we've built, and I love that the two of us got to undo mm hmm what we were put through when we were young.

It's like it doesn't have to be like this, No, it doesn't.

She was a kid, yeah, and I was essentially a kid.

Yeah, and all these years later, like we have a friendship and I get to see her baby all the time, and I love it.

Right, she was never the bad guy, right.

But she was the bad guy for a certain period of time because that is what we were taught.

Yeah, there's a woman right now that has been ordered to pay I believe it's it's either one point twenty five or one point seventy five million dollars in North Carolina because she is a home wrecker.

Oh how much is the man ordered to pay?

You might ask zero dollars?

So no, yeah, this is you can google it.

This is.

I did not make this up.

I couldn't even fathom this because there is like a home wrecker law in North Carolina.

And I think that says it all right, that it's easier to blame the other woman than the man.

Is you if you can take my man, he is not my man.

Yep.

You cannot wreck a home that was never fully built.

Nope, if if, if you can take it, if it, if it walks freely.

You can't steal something that walks away freely.

So this idea that it's the other woman, just in the same way that like, I should be able to walk out of the iHeart building into Burbank fully naked and not be assaulted.

Right, I should be able to.

Hit on some guy and him not and not not to be perceived as me trying to steal him.

Like he assuming that he's you know, I don't know, he's married whatever.

Well, yeah he should.

He is a contract with the other woman.

Yeah, he's got.

Enough agency to say, oh, thanks for the compliment, I'm not available, correct and move on with his dead.

Move on with his dad.

You're not a magician, you're not a hypnotist.

But also, like my assuming that she's not your best friend or that there's something else going there, Like, it is really hard to into the eyes of a person you loved and trusted and to realize that they did you dirty.

It is a lot easier to be like that whore, that bitch, that skink.

It feels easier, and we were conditioned to do it, so I understand why it happens.

I just think we're so much better than that, and we have to get to a point where, like we don't blame other women for men's behavior.

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.

Do you think part of the reason though, that people get so obsessed with like and listen, whether it's the man behavedly and when cheated and by the way, told that other woman some crazy story sure clearly, or some version of a story that ain't true, whether it's that where it's like to your point, relationship, it's ending like staying too long and realizing you shouldn't have whatever.

Do you think part of the.

Reason that there's so much volatility around endings is because we've we've been so conditioned to think that a relationship is is a measure of our value, like, oh, I'm worthy of this, so if it goes away, I'm less valuable.

Do you know what the definition of a spinster is.

It's just an unmarried woman in her thirties who makes her own money.

Spinster was a financially independent woman who was not married in her thirties, right, But that was seen as a negative.

So singletom has always been branded as a negative.

Why again, threatens the fabric of the patriarchy, threatens it more.

Than a single cat lady and it's because a woman.

And by the way, it's never a single dog lady.

And it's like when you actually start to think that dogs, like, if you think about like a single dog lady, meetly, picture a woman with a golden retriever.

You gender that golden retriever as a boy is a man.

A single cat lady is like a woman who has cats, cats or feline like feminine, you know, like, oh, her and the cat.

She doesn't need anything.

She doesn't think she needs a man.

She doesn't need a man.

She's good at home with her cats.

I also just like, I don't know why that's such a bad thing.

I don't either, And it doesn't mean that you can't like I guess what the we're a theme that we're bumping up on this conversation is, it's like, it's totally not embarrassing and it's one hundred percent great cool punk rock to want love and to crave love and to want to be love.

I get that.

That's great.

I'm not trying to say no to that.

I think it's like the way that we've positioned relationships as being this ultimate goal, this marker of.

Success, yeah, rather than a piece.

It's like exactly.

That's why I talk about never shop hungry.

But but that is a construct.

Yeah, we need people to get married and have kids for our society to be like functioning as it is, right, but there are like so many socio political roots to the way that we approach relationships, and when you stop to kind of deconstruct that and look at it as it's related to your own life, you'll start to realize, like, there isn't anything shameful about being single.

I mean, that's why we're in a single renaissance right now.

It's this sort of outsized slice of pie in the Bye chart, and if we can shift it, things change, Like this idea that you're supposed to pursue something that like once you have everything on the checklist, you're going to be happy.

Like I got everything on the checklist and I was miserable totally, like yeah I built it, and I went like, oh, it's but it's it's it's hollow.

And that was really really hard and really really sad.

Like you know, there's there's a there's an interesting thing about like especially going through things in public, Like God, I envy people who get to get divorced anonymously, but like, especially with women and the way they're shamed and the way they're judged, Like, you have to you have to really like hold on to the to the victory part.

You have to hold on to the I chose myself like and yes, and that doesn't mean it wasn't absolutely like decimating and painful.

And it literally got to a point where I was like, this is this is like my life or my death.

I think there's something so sad about realizing that the fairy tale you were promised doesn't actually exist.

That that is it's is hurtening.

I mean that's also what men are going through right now.

Well.

But also I think, like to what you were saying, if you are thirty five and.

And say single.

And you feel anxious about that, Yep, you are are more likely to settle.

You are far more likely to compromise on your boundaries.

You are far more likely to end up in a dynamic that doesn't actually suit you.

Yeah.

A situationship is a is a dynamic where one person has a compromised sense of tety and the other person is a compromised sense of self worth.

Yeah, and we see.

That a lot because uh, feeling less than feeling single and feeling less than is very scary.

That that circling back around that was what that chapter Monsters is about.

It was safer to be single and dating this guy who kind of sucked than it was to be single.

Yeah, And that's really why, like I wrote the book, is to try and get people to realize, like you can have the relationship of your dreams.

You can have the love that you want, but it starts with.

You well, and it it starts with not settling one that I think is a really big thing.

And like, you know, one of the reasons that, aside from your brilliance, I cherish our friendship, like you through like everything that's been very hard in the last couple of years, Like you've been one of my best friends.

That was like this isn't good enough for you.

I remember like when I was like I cried in front of all the lesbians and like, oh my god, I like said how bad things are and you were like, I also think you're a lesbian.

I was like hmm.

Rory really just was like, hey, hey, I've got thoughts something I don't know.

I mean, yeah, you know, when you're you see enough relationships, you pick on certain pick up on certain dynamics, and I was like.

Almost like when your friend is writing a book about how relationships work and studying the dynamics of love, they're really really smart at it.

I think that's why some instincts.

I think it's why so many people, though, are like relating to the book in such an intense way, like makes me so proud to be able to brag about you, because You're right, some people didn't get it, Like when you first had this concept, a few people were like huh, And within what four days of the book coming out, it was a bestseller in its category.

I mean we were sobbing on.

I was like on the flint face.

You know, It's just it's really amazing.

And I really hope that the folks at home, if they haven't read it, go and get a copy of it.

I I want to know why there's like there's seven thousand topics.

Just like you said, like, I have four hundred things I want to say.

I'm like, I have four hundred things I want to ask you questions about, but I'm also watching the clock.

Why do you think what does it really mean to be your own best friend?

Because the phrase can sound like a cliche, but the way you talk about it isn't.

Yeah, So that is a absolute mantra.

I think I wrote that three times or four times in the book.

It's a personal life mantra.

And if you can take one thing away from this episode, be your own best friend, and that is think about your relationship right now and put your best friend in it.

Your daughter, your sister, your mother.

Are you rooting for them?

Are you happy for them?

If you are not, why and then why are you settling for something that you wouldn't want your best friend in?

And the same thing goes for like when I was really go very deep on this in a chapter called spells, but when I was really deep into unwinding my beliefs, because I do think like the words words are like spells, and you have to be very careful and the way that you cast them and the way that most of us talk to ourselves.

We would never let anyone else talk to our best friends like that.

No, Like some of the things that I have been the biggest monster to me out of anyone in my love life, the person that has hurt me the most is me, full stop.

And I think that like sometimes it helps to put another person in your shoes and someone that you deeply care about.

Yeah, because if you would never or let somebody speak to them that way or treat them that way, why do you do that to yourself?

That's an incredibly illuminating exercise.

And you're right, like a very excellent takeaway for people.

You also talk about a relationship graveyard.

Yeah, and like why you actually have to have one or make one?

Yeah?

Why?

Well, this idea that they always come back is a very popular trope in horror movies and also in love and dating.

And that is not a flex that's a reflection of this person's selfishness and their opinions of your weak boundaries.

They come back.

Because they think they can come back and that you'll take them.

You gotta prove them wrong.

Keep them in the graveyard.

Keep them in the graveyard.

And this is not like a casual thing.

This is for like situationships, This is for real periods.

At the end of sentences, you screenshot what you need, what you want to keep, then you delete the thread.

You change their name to three tombstone emojis, and the more people get added, then you literally have no idea who they are.

You cannot contact them, and if they hit you up, you have no idea which person in the graveyard they are genius, they're gone, genie.

Because when you're dead, you're dead.

When you're dead, to me, honey, you're success.

Like you are not yet, there's no haunting me.

No thank you, no thank you.

I think being able to put down the ghosts, yeah, is a big deal.

Yeah, that's that's a big one.

It is a big one.

And ghosting is like a true epidemic.

And I obviously have a whole chapter on that.

I mean, I was ghosted by the guy who got me pregnant, So yeah, we talk when we talk about hurtful and embarrassing things, I've truly been through it.

But I think if you are ghosted, you have to see that as a blessing because ultimately, communication is the bedrock of all great relationship and if you have somebody that can't simply have an uncomfortable conversation, that's not that's not a good foundation to build a life on.

And by the way, to your point, I think it's really important to take that a step further, Like when I've thought about some of those dynamics or things that have been hurtful or ways I've hurt myself or ways people have hurt me, or ways I'm I've hurt people.

It's like when you're not ready or they're not ready to show up in their full self, Like they're going through something you might be going through something they don't deserve you, you don't deserve them, whatever, it's.

What you don't want is to rush a process for you or someone else.

It's gonna be a mess.

But what I like about your book and the way you talk about this stuff and the way you're shifting conversations for women in particular, is you're like you're defanging it a little bit and saying like you're good, move on.

Rejection is protection, Oh like thousand and I think like the biggest thing is rejection is protection.

But also be very very mindful of the stories that we write.

Yeah, because there's there are the horrors that happened to you, and there are the horrors that happen inside of you.

A lot of times the call is coming from inside the house and it's like, you know, two, we could both be in the same the same thing could happen to both of us, and we can walk away with two totally different stories.

Mine could be so traumatizing and you could never think about it again.

And I think, like, that's what's so important to me.

And yes, I do.

I do write for women.

I do speak to women.

Like if men read the book, I love that and that's amazing.

But like, I really do care about women, and that's why I get up and make content and write and do things just because I am a woman.

And I feel like there's a lot of trauma that comes from just simply existing in a.

World that was not meant for you.

Yeah.

So, oh, honey, you know I agree with that.

I don't.

Well, clearly, all of our listeners need to pick up their copy of A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating.

You can get it at your local bookshop.

You can order them online.

Rory, Before I let you go, I want to know what your work in progress is.

I have a couple things, and they are a real left turn.

Okay, one, I really want to dial in on malasma and experiment.

I'm experimenting with my own body.

I am injecting some things currently to see about that relationship and experimenting with topicals and internal stuff.

So like that is a work in progress and not something I can speak on yet, but I'm.

Very very curious about.

That because it relates to your liver and your autoimmun.

Because I have malasma and I care so much about skin and wellness and all of that, and so that is a definite, definite work in progress.

And then I am also always I've been on low dose now trek Zone for my cfsmy CFS since twenty eighteen, and I recently got off of it because I started microdosing to GLP one, and so that is another.

Work in progress.

I feel like my two works in progress are one is more vanity health related and the other one is just strictly like health and wellness related H and GPD.

Wow, look at you, you hack the chronic fatigue.

I'm going to be so thrilled about it.

I've the next podcast, next, next.

Next podcast, we'll we'll get into Rory's health and wellness.

I mean, but obviously you need the book and to be following her skin recommendations.

I've told you I need a full list.

I know we're supposed to do that the other night.

I know.

I love you.

Thank you for coming today, thank you for having me, thank you for writing this book, for us.

We really needed it.

Yeah,