You always see the very pro-vaccine people show the vaccines are the best thing ever and never cause an issue.

And then the people that are air quotes, anti-vax, their studies show that vaccines cause all sorts of problems.

And I think that's because epidemiology and it's malleable and you can show things how you want to show them.

And the only way to actually get a real answer is to follow prospectively and do the best kind of trials.

And until we do that, I don't know what the best answer is.

Um, so that's where you have to go with parental choice and kind of inform consent and make and doing what you feel like is best.

And lots of people in my practice do a slow schedule.

I mean, I guess, you know, for people that don't know me, I, I believe in informed consent.

I, I don't believe in forcing people to do things.

I'm not against vaccines at all.

11 00:01:17,201.633 --> 00:01:23,621.633 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Birth Lounge podcast.

12 00:01:23,732.243795455 --> 00:01:36,62.243795455 Um, let's talk about the elephant in the room, or shall I say the big baby in the womb?

Providers love to throw around this phrase, big baby.

13 00:01:36,62.243795455 --> 00:01:38,402.243795455 We think you're gonna have a big baby.

14 00:01:38,402.243795455 --> 00:01:40,232.24379545 Wow, this is a big baby in there.

15 00:01:40,232.24379545 --> 00:01:43,322.24379545 We should schedule your induction 'cause this is a big baby.

16 00:01:43,322.24379545 --> 00:01:48,407.24379545 And you know what?

Honestly, it's a great sales tactic because it works.

17 00:01:48,407.24379545 --> 00:01:49,577.24379545 It freaks you out.

18 00:01:49,577.24379545 --> 00:01:58,847.24379545 You start thinking, oh my God, what if this baby's huge?

How am I going to ever push a big baby out?

But here's the truth.

19 00:01:59,117.24379545 --> 00:02:05,987.24379545 A suspected big baby is actually one of the worst predictors in maternity care.

20 00:02:06,197.24379545 --> 00:02:07,782.24379545 If we actually break down the numbers.

21 00:02:08,257.24379545 --> 00:02:31,537.24379545 Only 1% of babies in the US are actually nine pounds and 15 ounces, which constitutes a big baby, which means the rest of the 99% of babies that are born in the US are below nine 15, which means they don't actually meet the criteria for a big.

22 00:02:32,247.24379545 --> 00:02:32,697.24379545 Baby.

23 00:02:32,787.24379545 --> 00:02:46,467.24379545 So why are you told so much about a big baby?

Well, partly because money, like everything, and partly because scheduling an induction or a C-section is easier for the hospital system.

24 00:02:46,527.24379545 --> 00:02:49,647.24379545 And then partly, yes, we're going thirds here.

25 00:02:50,22.24379545 --> 00:02:53,352.24379545 Your ob, GYN, is probably afraid of a big baby.

26 00:02:53,412.24379545 --> 00:02:58,302.24379545 You want another piece of data that may drop your jaw to the absolute floor.

27 00:02:58,362.24379545 --> 00:03:08,922.24379545 The biggest predictor of whether you are able to push out a big baby or not is actually your provider's belief in your ability to do so.

28 00:03:09,142.24379545 --> 00:03:13,882.24379545 Yeah, so the doctor you choose, they're quite important.

29 00:03:14,32.24379545 --> 00:03:21,472.24379545 You want a doctor that is not scared of a big baby, rather knows how to facilitate the birth of a big baby.

30 00:03:21,472.24379545 --> 00:03:48,747.24379545 But what if you don't have that?

What if you can't change providers?

What if you are too late to maybe go to a different hospital?

What if you just don't want to?

Then what?

Well lucky for you, I've been working on a brand new course that I'm calling Pushing Out Your Big Ass Baby, and it's going to bust through all the myths, lay out all the real evidence, link all the data for you, and hand you the ex.

31 00:03:48,757.24379545 --> 00:03:55,237.24379545 Exact advocacy tools that you need to shut down the scare tactics with confidence.

32 00:03:55,327.24379545 --> 00:04:01,957.24379545 Right now we are in a pre-sale phase, which means you are getting a pre-sale price.

33 00:04:02,107.24379545 --> 00:04:07,387.24379545 If you have been worried about hearing the words, big baby, if your provider has been.

34 00:04:07,527.24379545 --> 00:04:13,947.24379545 Scaring you about having a big baby, or you're just concerned that you may not know what to do.

35 00:04:14,7.24379545 --> 00:04:28,347.24379545 If you run into this in the end of pregnancy and you're looking for tangible tips to overcome the fear-based rhetoric and actually have the birth of your dreams, no matter how much your baby weighs at birth, then this course is for you.

36 00:04:28,407.24379545 --> 00:04:31,572.24379545 I'm gonna be defining exactly what microsomia is.

37 00:04:32,317.24379545 --> 00:04:38,677.24379545 Whether or not induction and C-section are evidence-based for a quote unquote big baby.

38 00:04:38,947.24379545 --> 00:04:46,657.24379545 How movement in labor and birth positions make all the difference, the actual risks that are involved because nothing is risk-free.

39 00:04:46,927.24379545 --> 00:04:51,307.24379545 Plus, we're gonna talk about some complications that may arise and how you can handle those.

40 00:04:51,367.24379545 --> 00:05:00,247.24379545 And then finally, I'm gonna teach you how to advocate for yourself so that you do not get pressured into a birth situation that you absolutely do not want.

41 00:05:00,277.24379545 --> 00:05:03,637.24379545 Head to the birth lounge.com/big 42 00:05:03,637.24379545 --> 00:05:07,117.24379545 baby to get your hands on this brand new course today.

43 00:05:07,937.24379545 --> 00:05:09,617.24379545 Do not wait.

44 00:05:09,767.24379545 --> 00:05:16,922.24379545 The price goes up on November 1st, so get in right now in this pre-sale period so you can take advantage of that pre-sale price.

45 00:05:17,242.24379545 --> 00:05:23,782.24379545 I cannot wait to help you have an empowered birth and push out your big ass baby again.

46 00:05:23,782.24379545 --> 00:05:26,2.24379545 That is the birth lounge.com 47 00:05:26,872.24379545 --> 00:05:27,922.24379545 big baby.

48 00:05:28,42.24379545 --> 00:05:28,612.24379545 See you there.

49 00:05:29,321.63155056 --> 00:05:32,171.63155056 All right onto today's episode.

50 00:05:32,501.63155056 --> 00:05:38,21.63155056 Just when you thought that we were wrapping up our vaccine exploration series.

51 00:05:39,506.63155056 --> 00:05:40,736.63155056 I hit you with an upper cut.

52 00:05:40,856.63155056 --> 00:05:50,576.63155056 So today's episode is one final episode with a guest who has actually already been on the show.

53 00:05:50,936.63155056 --> 00:05:54,476.63155056 If you listen to episode 318 with Dr.

54 00:05:54,476.63155056 --> 00:06:02,576.63155056 Joel Gator, who is a pediatrician, we actually talked about in that episode screen time for your children.

55 00:06:02,851.63155056 --> 00:06:25,351.63155056 And within that episode we briefly talked about vaccines, but very surface level and a lot of you wrote in and you wished that we had dove deeper into vaccines, which then pushed me to do the vaccine exploration series, which then prompted Dr.

56 00:06:25,351.63155056 --> 00:06:28,651.63155056 Gator to reach out to us and say.

57 00:06:29,96.63155056 --> 00:06:41,396.63155056 Hey, do you wanna do a episode about kind of debriefing your vaccine expiration series?

And I thought, heck yeah, let's do it.

58 00:06:41,486.63155056 --> 00:06:49,646.63155056 And so, not only is today a really fun episode, because it is unlike any other episode that.

59 00:06:49,991.63155056 --> 00:06:54,521.63155056 We've done, we're kind of reviewing a series of the episode.

60 00:06:54,701.63155056 --> 00:07:04,61.63155056 He and I have a lot of really great banter about vaccine topics that you're really not gonna find anywhere else.

61 00:07:04,121.63155056 --> 00:07:06,11.63155056 And I pressed Dr.

62 00:07:06,11.63155056 --> 00:07:10,91.63155056 Gator on some of your most pressing questions.

63 00:07:10,91.63155056 --> 00:07:15,851.63155056 And you know what?

He is so transparent with all of his answers.

64 00:07:15,851.63155056 --> 00:07:18,431.63155056 I think one of my favorite things about Dr.

65 00:07:18,431.63155056 --> 00:07:21,971.63155056 Gator is that he truly doesn't have any judgment.

66 00:07:22,1.63155056 --> 00:07:27,761.63155056 He genuinely does not care what you choose for your family.

67 00:07:27,941.63155056 --> 00:07:46,756.63155056 What he does care about though is that you feel informed and you feel confident, and that you are being supported in a way that truly feels aligned with you and your family, and I think that's pretty self-explanatory about why he and I are so aligned on so many things.

68 00:07:46,816.43243223 --> 00:08:00,561.43243223 Now, obviously there have been many headlines recently about the changes being made within the CDC into the vaccine schedule and by ACIP, which is the advisory Committee on immunization practices.

69 00:08:01,469.94512616 --> 00:08:09,779.94512616 And if you're like me, you probably feel a bit overwhelmed with all of the information that is circulating from.

70 00:08:10,764.94512616 --> 00:08:23,394.94512616 Online sources to social media, to articles being shared and group messages to the news broadcast that you watch in the evenings or early in the mornings.

71 00:08:23,874.94512616 --> 00:08:25,224.94512616 Now, today, Dr.

72 00:08:25,224.94512616 --> 00:08:29,784.94512616 Gator and I are gonna dive into a bunch of those headlines.

73 00:08:30,114.94512616 --> 00:08:35,879.94512616 We're gonna talk about why there aren't vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

74 00:08:36,330.79034369 --> 00:08:39,690.79034369 Trials when it comes to vaccine testing.

75 00:08:40,80.79034369 --> 00:08:47,610.79034369 We're also gonna talk about how concerned parents should be with the amount of aluminum and adjuvants in vaccines.

76 00:08:48,409.19104015 --> 00:09:06,554.19104015 Obviously this leads us to the topic of public trust and how that trust has been eroded between the healthcare system and parents in the recent years, and what it genuinely means to have informed consent when it comes to your vaccination choice.

77 00:09:07,74.63853028 --> 00:09:28,939.63853028 A couple of other things that I talked to him about is how do we as consumers and as parents navigate the decision around being seen by a pediatrician who does see unvaccinated children as well?

Because we know those camps are quite opposite and they have a lot of strong feelings and there's a lot of people in both.

78 00:09:29,679.63853028 --> 00:09:30,429.63853028 Camps.

79 00:09:30,459.63853028 --> 00:09:31,359.63853028 I hear you.

80 00:09:31,359.63853028 --> 00:09:38,679.63853028 If you are someone who says, I absolutely do not want to take my child to a pediatrician that sees unvaccinated kids.

81 00:09:38,679.63853028 --> 00:09:46,89.63853028 And then I also hear you very much if you are someone who is struggling to find a pediatrician to give you care.

82 00:09:46,139.63853028 --> 00:09:53,849.63853028 And then obviously that brings up the questions about ethics and morals and legality.

83 00:09:53,909.63853028 --> 00:09:57,509.63853028 Question mark, can a pediatrician actually fire you for.

84 00:09:58,749.63853028 --> 00:10:02,949.63853028 Not following the CDC recommended schedule.

85 00:10:02,979.63853028 --> 00:10:03,669.63853028 'cause that's all it is.

86 00:10:03,669.63853028 --> 00:10:04,719.63853028 It's a recommendation.

87 00:10:04,719.63853028 --> 00:10:07,509.63853028 They're not mandates, they aren't the law.

88 00:10:07,719.63853028 --> 00:10:23,40.60069035 So how does all of that work?

And then if you are fired by your pediatrician, what's the ethics behind that?

Where do those families go to get care?

And then finally to wrap up the episode, because we're headed into sick season, I did wanna get Dr.

89 00:10:23,40.60069035 --> 00:10:33,30.60069035 Gator's opinion on the RSV vaccine and I wanted to ask what parents needed to know when making that decision for their family.

90 00:10:33,30.60069035 --> 00:10:33,510.60069035 Pros.

91 00:10:33,510.60069035 --> 00:10:34,80.60069035 Cons.

92 00:10:34,375.60069035 --> 00:10:43,68.4973969 Alternatives And how do you truly keep your child the safest when it comes to entering RSV season?

If you wanna hear Dr.

93 00:10:43,68.4973969 --> 00:10:49,548.4973969 Gator's full bio, you can find that in the show notes, or you can scroll back to episode three 18 and listen there.

94 00:10:49,818.4973969 --> 00:10:54,258.4973969 But I really am so eager to dive into this episode because it's so good.

95 00:10:54,468.4973969 --> 00:11:04,458.4973969 And the chats that we have are, like I say, they're like nothing else you're gonna find anywhere else because he and I are not afraid to go there on topics.

96 00:11:04,458.4973969 --> 00:11:14,958.4973969 We're not afraid to have this respectful conversation, and we certainly aren't afraid to address the questions that so many other people seem fearful to talk about.

97 00:11:15,198.4973969 --> 00:11:17,538.4973969 So that's exactly what you're gonna hear today.

98 00:11:17,898.4973969 --> 00:11:19,848.4973969 So without further ado, Dr.

99 00:11:19,848.4973969 --> 00:11:21,738.4973969 Joel, welcome back to the show.

100 00:11:21,743.67794711 --> 00:11:22,912.68054189 Thanks for having me back on.

101 00:11:23,242.68054189 --> 00:11:24,142.68054189 Absolutely.

102 00:11:24,142.68054189 --> 00:11:37,822.68054189 You are such a good guest for the show and I obviously love your Instagram and I gotta be honest, you were kind of that pivotal person that kicked off our latest vaccine series.

103 00:11:37,847.68054189 --> 00:11:46,432.68054189 Um, and it's because I had you on actually to talk about screen time, but we did talk a little bit about vaccines, just briefly mentioned it.

104 00:11:46,612.68054189 --> 00:11:54,862.68054189 It was in passing and I had so many people reach out and say, wait, we wanna hear more about vaccines.

105 00:11:54,862.68054189 --> 00:11:56,722.68054189 Wait, we wanna hear more about this.

106 00:11:56,752.68054189 --> 00:11:59,782.68054189 Oh, I wish you guys had dove deeper into that.

107 00:11:59,782.68054189 --> 00:12:01,312.68054189 I wish you had discussed this more.

108 00:12:01,312.68054189 --> 00:12:21,412.68054189 And I thought, okay, how am I going to do this and keep things neutral and try and have people from both sides?

So I wanted to have representation of pediatricians that honored parent autonomy and freedom of choice.

109 00:12:21,542.68054189 --> 00:12:26,522.68054189 And I thought it was really important too, to have on someone that was representative of the A A P.

110 00:12:26,772.68054189 --> 00:12:43,32.68054189 And I wanted to talk with people who weren't necessarily MDs as well because we know a lot of families are getting care from nurse practitioners and people who are not necessarily physicians themselves and so it took me a couple of months to be able to put that series together.

111 00:12:43,282.68054189 --> 00:12:54,927.68054189 And so I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on the, on the series and let's kind of hash through some of the things that came up for you when you were listening to the series.

112 00:12:54,932.68054189 --> 00:13:07,972.68054189 Yeah, I, I mean I thought it was great and you know, I think it's so interesting just even in mentioning that because we talked, I dunno, it wasn't that many months ago, maybe like in, I think the early beginning of the year and even at that time things were very different than they are now.

113 00:13:07,977.68054189 --> 00:13:08,7.68054189 Mm-hmm.

114 00:13:08,87.68054189 --> 00:13:08,847.68054189 And, and was.

115 00:13:09,682.68054189 --> 00:13:16,462.68054189 Decreasing at that time, but still around and, and I don't really feel like there's a lot of censorship around vaccines anymore, which is good.

116 00:13:17,192.68054189 --> 00:13:24,872.68054189 And since my book came out and, and I started talking about vaccines, I mean, I've been doing a lot of talking about vaccines on a lot of different podcasts.

117 00:13:24,872.68054189 --> 00:13:31,62.68054189 And so it's been really interesting to see how excited people are to talk about it and how positively people have taken it.

118 00:13:31,62.68054189 --> 00:13:32,952.68054189 Because there were just so many questions about vaccines.

119 00:13:32,952.68054189 --> 00:13:33,852.68054189 We can never talk about it.

120 00:13:33,852.68054189 --> 00:13:35,22.68054189 And now we, we can.

121 00:13:35,562.68054189 --> 00:13:41,622.68054189 And, um, I, given that I always have to, I talk about like all the time, like every day I'm doing podcasts or the news or whatever it is.

122 00:13:41,622.68054189 --> 00:13:46,242.68054189 And I, so I try to keep up with all the things that people are talking about when it comes to vaccines.

123 00:13:46,242.68054189 --> 00:13:49,332.68054189 And I try to listen to as many podcasts and things about vaccines.

124 00:13:49,332.68054189 --> 00:13:51,102.68054189 And I always try to get the different perspectives.

125 00:13:51,102.68054189 --> 00:13:55,242.68054189 And when I was just doing Spotify search, I, I saw like, some of your episodes.

126 00:13:56,52.68054189 --> 00:13:57,522.68054189 Came up with the word and I was like, oh, this is great.

127 00:13:57,522.68054189 --> 00:14:02,32.68054189 And so I listened to them and I thought it was great and you really were quite unbiased, which was fantastic.

128 00:14:02,32.68054189 --> 00:14:04,792.68054189 And you, you went to, you know, kind of both ends, which I think is important.

129 00:14:04,792.68054189 --> 00:14:05,872.68054189 That's what I tried to do with my book.

130 00:14:05,872.68054189 --> 00:14:08,62.68054189 And I think you kind of did that in a, in a podcast form.

131 00:14:08,62.68054189 --> 00:14:10,552.68054189 So I thought it was great and I figured, and that's why I reached out to you again.

132 00:14:10,552.68054189 --> 00:14:12,292.68054189 I was like, oh, I, I heard you talking about this.

133 00:14:12,542.68054189 --> 00:14:19,392.68054189 Do you wanna do another episode now that it's done?

'cause I'm curious like what questions you have, or, I'm sure there's like just a lot of things we can chat about about that.

134 00:14:19,392.68054189 --> 00:14:26,52.68054189 But that, that's kind of how this evolved because I just thought like, oh well let's, let's, let's, we didn't talk about it even it was just a few months ago and this was like what I was talking about.

135 00:14:26,52.68054189 --> 00:14:28,432.68054189 So I feel like it's a good time to get into it now.

136 00:14:28,972.68054189 --> 00:14:31,522.68054189 Well, you know, honestly, it's because I was scared.

137 00:14:31,522.68054189 --> 00:14:35,482.68054189 I spent a long time really avoiding this topic because.

138 00:14:36,292.68054189 --> 00:14:37,492.68054189 It is so volatile.

139 00:14:37,492.68054189 --> 00:14:42,862.68054189 People have such big feelings, and I don't like to be the target of those big feelings.

140 00:14:42,862.68054189 --> 00:14:47,752.68054189 And I also feel like vaccines are not necessarily my wheelhouse.

141 00:14:47,802.68054189 --> 00:15:04,182.68054189 I, I like to really operate in this space of being able to provide people with resources, so humans to go to websites, to go to books and podcasts, to go to not necessarily providing the information myself.

142 00:15:04,182.68054189 --> 00:15:10,232.68054189 And so, I had a lot of like personal growth that I had to do before I was ready to take that series on.

143 00:15:10,232.68054189 --> 00:15:12,512.68054189 And so that's kind of where the hesitation came from.

144 00:15:12,512.68054189 --> 00:15:17,102.68054189 And I talked about it in the series of, like, I, it is a big honor to be able to hold this space for people.

145 00:15:17,852.68054189 --> 00:15:21,662.68054189 I really did genuinely try and, and keep it really unbiased and neutral.

146 00:15:21,662.68054189 --> 00:15:27,422.68054189 So it feels very validating and just like a big honor to hear you say that I did a, a fairly good job at that.

147 00:15:27,452.68054189 --> 00:15:28,592.68054189 'cause that was the goal.

148 00:15:28,872.68054189 --> 00:15:30,372.68054189 I did have a lot of questions.

149 00:15:30,582.68054189 --> 00:15:31,602.68054189 Oh yeah, no, go for it.

150 00:15:31,602.68054189 --> 00:15:42,492.68054189 And it's not, I think it's a really interesting, if you kind of step back, right?

You think generally for a podcast, the host is not the expert, right?

And so like, generally for the topics you're talking about, you are bringing on people that don't know.

151 00:15:42,642.68054189 --> 00:15:46,582.68054189 So the fact that same for me, like I've just been talking about vaccines, you know, forever.

152 00:15:47,197.68054189 --> 00:15:47,947.68054189 Until recently.

153 00:15:47,947.68054189 --> 00:15:53,57.68054189 And so it's weird to think that there would be a topic that people would be interested in, so interested in.

154 00:15:53,357.68054189 --> 00:16:01,67.68054189 That's that you would be like, and this isn't weird 'cause this is just how it is, but I'm just saying like, it's weird that we would be in this place where you would be like, I don't know if I wanna do a topic, it's too censored.

155 00:16:01,67.68054189 --> 00:16:02,477.68054189 Like, but that's where we were.

156 00:16:02,627.68054189 --> 00:16:02,777.68054189 Mm-hmm.

157 00:16:03,267.68054189 --> 00:16:08,667.68054189 And, and I think that's just interesting to think about because there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to talk about it.

158 00:16:08,667.68054189 --> 00:16:11,307.68054189 You're, you're not the expert probably on many things that you talk about yet.

159 00:16:11,487.68054189 --> 00:16:13,947.68054189 Those are things you bring on because that's why you bring the person on, like they're the expert.

160 00:16:13,947.68054189 --> 00:16:17,367.68054189 So it's just, it's really cool to kind of be on the other end of this now, I think.

161 00:16:17,367.68054189 --> 00:16:29,997.68054189 And having people talk about, and I'm curious before we get into like, you know, the topics, like how did people respond to, did you get a lot of hate?

I thought I was gonna get so much hate with the book and so much, and I haven't gotten almost any, which has been very surprising.

162 00:16:30,87.68054189 --> 00:16:30,177.68054189 Yeah.

163 00:16:30,177.68054189 --> 00:16:37,137.68054189 So I'm curious, like, was it similar for your audience?

It was, um, I think there were some topics that I got a lot of pushback.

164 00:16:37,137.68054189 --> 00:16:42,537.6805419 So to, in, in all honesty, our biggest episode was the vitamin K episode.

165 00:16:42,597.6805419 --> 00:16:43,917.6805419 I did not see that coming.

166 00:16:43,917.6805419 --> 00:16:45,897.6805419 I was very shocked about that.

167 00:16:46,147.6805419 --> 00:16:52,867.6805419 I thought that our episode with the pediatrician that represents the AAP would be a lot larger than it was.

168 00:16:53,227.6805419 --> 00:17:03,367.6805419 I thought that the episode that talked specifically about Tylenol use and autism with a clinical pharmacist would also be a lot larger and it wasn't.

169 00:17:03,587.6805419 --> 00:17:14,327.6805419 And then I thought that the episode with the pediatrician that was vaccine neutral and he is out of Florida, so he allows parents to kind of make their own schedule and he's really into autonomy.

170 00:17:14,567.6805419 --> 00:17:14,867.6805419 Dr.

171 00:17:14,867.6805419 --> 00:17:19,817.6805419 Thornberg, I thought that one would blow up like wildfire and it was just like mediocre.

172 00:17:19,847.6805419 --> 00:17:20,327.6805419 Um.

173 00:17:20,852.6805419 --> 00:17:25,952.6805419 Well, maybe because it's not the birth podcast, I guess is kind of the, the behind, like, you know, behind what it's become.

174 00:17:26,342.6805419 --> 00:17:26,402.6805419 Yeah.

175 00:17:26,402.6805419 --> 00:17:30,602.6805419 And so vitamin K is, is so relevant, I think to a lot of people probably listening, so that makes sense.

176 00:17:30,602.6805419 --> 00:17:34,507.6805419 But I thought the, the most interesting conversation was with Dr.

177 00:17:34,507.6805419 --> 00:17:37,387.6805419 Patel because you were me, you were pretty, you were very reasonable with him.

178 00:17:37,777.6805419 --> 00:17:42,697.6805419 But you pushed back, but not super hard, which I mean, you probably just didn't want to, but, which is totally reasonable.

179 00:17:42,697.6805419 --> 00:17:44,767.6805419 But like, I was so shocked.

180 00:17:44,767.6805419 --> 00:17:46,717.6805419 What he's, I was actually surprised.

181 00:17:46,717.6805419 --> 00:17:52,627.6805419 I mean, I'm not surprised because I'm surprised by nothing, but I was super shocked when he was saying that he thought it was unethical to do a vaccinated versus unvaccinated study.

182 00:17:52,927.6805419 --> 00:17:59,612.6805419 And I was like, like do really, A lot of doctors think that, like, I don't understand why in any way you would think that's unethical.

183 00:17:59,612.6805419 --> 00:18:00,872.6805419 Like, there, there's no logic to that.

184 00:18:00,957.6805419 --> 00:18:05,42.6805419 A a, a randomized would be maybe, yeah, you can see why that would be unethical.

185 00:18:05,42.6805419 --> 00:18:08,282.6805419 But a, something that's open label that you could choose which group you're in.

186 00:18:09,77.6805419 --> 00:18:12,17.6805419 How could that be unethical?

And I, I wish you had to asked him more about it.

187 00:18:12,22.6805419 --> 00:18:13,247.6805419 I, I know why you didn't push him.

188 00:18:13,247.6805419 --> 00:18:13,607.6805419 It's fine.

189 00:18:14,327.6805419 --> 00:18:17,327.6805419 But I mean, I'm very curious like why he actually thinks that's unethical.

190 00:18:17,357.6805419 --> 00:18:22,547.6805419 'cause he didn't really say, he just kinda said, but, but like, I don't, I thought that was, I thought that's a weird response.

191 00:18:23,867.6805419 --> 00:18:23,927.6805419 Yeah.

192 00:18:23,927.6805419 --> 00:18:36,407.6805419 I, um, so in all honesty, that is probably the number one sentence that stuck out to me in the whole entire vaccine series that I did, is that he was really like staunchly against that.

193 00:18:36,437.6805419 --> 00:18:47,67.6805419 And I can't remember if he had a conversation in one of my comment sections or if he and I had a conversation afterwards, but what I gathered, and I'm not, I'm not speaking for him.

194 00:18:47,67.6805419 --> 00:18:49,227.6805419 So everyone, if you wanna hear it straight from Dr.

195 00:18:49,227.6805419 --> 00:18:51,87.6805419 Patel, he's a really kind guy.

196 00:18:51,87.6805419 --> 00:18:52,297.6805419 He's always in his DMs.

197 00:18:52,317.6805419 --> 00:18:53,907.6805419 So like, please address him.

198 00:18:53,907.6805419 --> 00:18:55,827.6805419 Like he, he, he will definitely talk back to you.

199 00:18:56,37.6805419 --> 00:19:04,107.6805419 But what I gathered from his side was that withholding a vaccine from a group of people.

200 00:19:04,662.6805419 --> 00:19:06,12.6805419 Is the unethical part.

201 00:19:06,12.6805419 --> 00:19:17,562.6805419 And I think where he and I disconnected or were disconnected where you and I are very connected on this is that both sides would have the knowledge of what they were getting, right?

It's not a blind placebo.

202 00:19:17,562.6805419 --> 00:19:18,942.6805419 That's not what we're doing here.

203 00:19:18,942.6805419 --> 00:19:25,962.6805419 You would either, and my argument is that there are already hundreds of thousands of families that choose to not be vaccinated.

204 00:19:25,962.6805419 --> 00:19:27,702.6805419 So let's bring them into a study.

205 00:19:27,702.6805419 --> 00:19:40,272.6805419 They are voluntarily not being vaccinated and they reserve the right at any time during that study to either pull out of the study or to become vaccinated, and then we would just remove them from that group.

206 00:19:40,452.6805419 --> 00:19:42,492.6805419 And the same can be said for the vaccinated.

207 00:19:42,492.6805419 --> 00:19:47,232.6805419 Let's take a group of people who are voluntarily vaccinating their children according to the schedule.

208 00:19:47,592.6805419 --> 00:20:07,37.6805419 And at any point they reserve the right to also pull out of the study or stop vaccinating, which we would then remove them, right?

And so I think for me, that's more of my setup when I think about looking at a vaccinated versus unvaccinated group of children is, it's not withholding.

209 00:20:07,37.6805419 --> 00:20:13,367.6805419 They still have access to either vaccinations or to stop vaccinating because it's voluntary.

210 00:20:13,367.6805419 --> 00:20:13,457.6805419 Right.

211 00:20:13,747.6805419 --> 00:20:18,487.6805419 And I think he and I just were not able to, to connect on that point specifically.

212 00:20:18,787.6805419 --> 00:20:22,377.6805419 And that's what I, I mean, if I was talking to him, that's what I'd want to press on more.

213 00:20:22,557.6805419 --> 00:20:23,937.6805419 Um, because I have a lot of respect for him.

214 00:20:23,937.6805419 --> 00:20:24,567.6805419 I think he's great.

215 00:20:24,567.6805419 --> 00:20:26,727.6805419 I think he's a wonderful speaker, wonderful communicator.

216 00:20:26,967.6805419 --> 00:20:27,417.6805419 Super.

217 00:20:27,477.6805419 --> 00:20:31,257.6805419 I mean, I've never met him, but seems like super nice guy and, and like does a great job in general.

218 00:20:31,407.6805419 --> 00:20:31,587.6805419 Yeah.

219 00:20:31,677.6805419 --> 00:20:35,707.6805419 Um, And so he said that and I, you know, maybe there's something I don't know.

220 00:20:35,917.6805419 --> 00:20:38,287.6805419 And that's why I would love to, because I just don't get it.

221 00:20:38,287.6805419 --> 00:20:44,227.6805419 Like, I don't see why it would be unethical to allow people to make their choice and to follow them forward.

222 00:20:44,227.6805419 --> 00:20:52,477.6805419 And that, and in my book, I mean, that's literally what I thought we should be doing, but that's kind of in the, the last part of the book, what I'm think like what should we doing next?

Like I think we need prospective trials.

223 00:20:52,482.6805419 --> 00:20:52,502.6805419 Mm-hmm.

224 00:20:52,502.6805419 --> 00:20:52,862.6805419 That's what we need.

225 00:20:52,862.6805419 --> 00:20:52,872.6805419 Mm-hmm.

226 00:20:52,872.6805419 --> 00:20:54,37.6805419 We need a lot of them.

227 00:20:54,337.6805419 --> 00:20:59,592.6805419 I think we've had, uh, a good chunk of epidemiology and retrospective studies.

228 00:20:59,592.6805419 --> 00:21:00,132.6805419 Not enough.

229 00:21:00,132.6805419 --> 00:21:13,722.6805419 I mean, we certainly haven't done the vaccinated unvaccinated that I think we need to do, but ultimately, regardless of any of that, epidemiology is so malleable based on your preconceived notions and you can adjust the studies to find what you're looking for.

230 00:21:13,782.6805419 --> 00:21:13,872.6805419 Yes.

231 00:21:13,872.6805419 --> 00:21:25,62.6805419 And especially when it comes to vaccines, I think that there's certainly one part of the research that is you find something that's not so great about vaccines and then that person gets destroyed and they lose their career, so they just don't wanna do it anymore.

232 00:21:25,212.6805419 --> 00:21:31,602.6805419 There's another part of it where someone who's like the head of CDC vaccine safety is like, oh, I found this, this thing with vaccines.

233 00:21:31,842.6805419 --> 00:21:33,42.6805419 Oh, well here's what must be wrong.

234 00:21:33,42.6805419 --> 00:21:33,792.6805419 Let's adjust that.

235 00:21:33,882.6805419 --> 00:21:34,752.6805419 Okay, now we adjust it.

236 00:21:34,752.6805419 --> 00:21:35,772.6805419 Now there's no signal.

237 00:21:36,12.6805419 --> 00:21:36,342.6805419 Great.

238 00:21:36,342.6805419 --> 00:21:59,82.6805419 So there's no, there's no risk for vaccines where adjusting in epidemiology is correct, but you can also adjust incorrectly to get rid of a signal that should be there and so I just think that there's enough confusion and enough concern around vaccines, and we're doing this so, so frequently for our kids and we're having this massive debate that it is just time that we have 10 prospective studies all over the world, vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

239 00:21:59,82.6805419 --> 00:22:00,432.6805419 Like that's what I think we need to do.

240 00:22:00,432.6805419 --> 00:22:03,492.6805419 And so I would be curious as to why he thinks that's unethical.

241 00:22:04,122.6805419 --> 00:22:07,752.6805419 I know that it's not as good as a randomized trial, but it's as good as we're gonna be able to do.

242 00:22:08,22.6805419 --> 00:22:08,232.6805419 Correct.

243 00:22:08,232.6805419 --> 00:22:09,852.6805419 But I see why it's unethical.

244 00:22:09,852.6805419 --> 00:22:15,642.6805419 If anything, you'd be giving people more education around vaccines if they were in a study and they would be able to choose which group they're in.

245 00:22:15,642.6805419 --> 00:22:18,492.6805419 And they could, they could always get them if they wanted to, and they can always drop out.

246 00:22:18,492.6805419 --> 00:22:24,432.6805419 But you'd just be following a big group of people forward for five or 10 or 15 years and just see what they do.

247 00:22:24,432.6805419 --> 00:22:30,792.6805419 And ultimately what you'd come away with is the unvaccinated lifestyle versus the vaccinated lifestyle.

248 00:22:30,792.6805419 --> 00:22:51,15.0730059 And you won't necessarily be able to know exactly, but either way, in my mind, if the unvaccinated kids in general are healthier at the end of that study and at the end of 10 studies, then the question is, okay, why is the unvaccinated child and their lifestyle giving them lower rates of chronic disease Like that is the question.

249 00:22:51,15.0730059 --> 00:22:52,695.0730059 And it may not end be, be vaccines.

250 00:22:52,695.0730059 --> 00:22:54,5.0730059 It could be the food they're eating.

251 00:22:54,5.0730059 --> 00:22:56,255.0730059 It could be the way that they're living the toxins they are supposed to.

252 00:22:56,255.0730059 --> 00:22:57,395.0730059 It could be many other things.

253 00:22:57,395.0730059 --> 00:23:15,905.0730059 But once we can establish that those kids are healthier, then the question would be, okay, why?

And if you do tend studies like that and the groups are exactly the same and they have the same rates of autism and the same rates of chronic disease, that is the exact research that's gonna make parents very comfortable to actually go and get vaccines.

254 00:23:15,935.0730059 --> 00:23:20,795.0730059 And it's gonna be the evidence that doctors would actually really want to be able to point to, to say, look, we did.

255 00:23:21,695.0730059 --> 00:23:22,685.0730059 We took it to heart.

256 00:23:22,835.0730059 --> 00:23:24,515.0730059 We understand that people are concerned.

257 00:23:24,725.0730059 --> 00:23:28,115.0730059 We understand that people are worried about autism, they're worried about chronic disease.

258 00:23:28,145.0730059 --> 00:23:30,125.0730059 So we are running a whole bunch of studies.

259 00:23:30,125.0730059 --> 00:23:31,745.0730059 We're spending millions and billions of dollars.

260 00:23:31,745.0730059 --> 00:23:32,855.0730059 We're gonna follow kids forward.

261 00:23:32,855.0730059 --> 00:23:38,405.0730059 We're gonna have a lot better data in 10 years than we have now, and we're gonna have much better answers than we we have then.

262 00:23:38,405.0730059 --> 00:23:40,925.0730059 And people will be much more comfortable to do it at that point.

263 00:23:41,225.0730059 --> 00:23:43,475.0730059 And I think that would put a lot of the concerns to rest.

264 00:23:43,475.0730059 --> 00:23:45,125.0730059 But I, I just don't see that happening.

265 00:23:45,125.0730059 --> 00:24:01,995.0730059 And when you hear somebody as prominent and intelligent and, and really, you know, at the top of the pediatrics, of medicine saying that they feel like it's unethical to do that, then I think it's disheartening for a lot of parents to like, well then how are we ever gonna get that kind of research if you can't even study it and, and just assume that they're safe.

266 00:24:02,415.0730059 --> 00:24:08,235.0730059 Why should we assume that something is safe?

Like we should study it and we should always wanna make it better and we should always wanna improve it.

267 00:24:08,235.0730059 --> 00:24:13,725.0730059 And right now there's nothing that I see in the system that's pushing pharmaceutical companies to make their products better.

268 00:24:14,145.0730059 --> 00:24:15,615.0730059 And I don't want kids to be.

269 00:24:16,500.0730059 --> 00:24:18,300.0730059 Unprotected from disease if we can protect them.

270 00:24:18,300.0730059 --> 00:24:21,570.0730059 But I also don't wanna cause harm if there is some harms there.

271 00:24:21,570.0730059 --> 00:24:27,660.0730059 And, and I think we would have better vaccines potentially if companies were forced to make them better.

272 00:24:27,660.0730059 --> 00:24:29,10.0730059 And there's nothing right now pushing 'em.

273 00:24:29,10.0730059 --> 00:24:29,910.0730059 'cause you can't sue them.

274 00:24:29,910.0730059 --> 00:24:30,540.0730059 Not really.

275 00:24:30,850.0730059 --> 00:24:35,620.0730059 And I would, I would think if we were a little more humble in 10 years, we'd have better safer vaccines than we had now.

276 00:24:35,680.0730059 --> 00:24:37,720.0730059 Maybe newer technology, different technology.

277 00:24:38,20.0730059 --> 00:24:40,420.0730059 Maybe, you know, you'd, you'd drink a vaccine like with some of them.

278 00:24:40,420.0730059 --> 00:24:44,890.0730059 Maybe you just drink a little thing and then you get, you get your enough protection for 10 diseases and that's safer.

279 00:24:44,890.0730059 --> 00:24:48,640.0730059 I, I don't know, maybe there's a skin patch you could put, I, who knows what the future technology is.

280 00:24:48,640.0730059 --> 00:24:54,550.0730059 But you, we had a polio vaccine in the past, right?

Oral was giving more people polio than it was helpful.

281 00:24:54,790.0730059 --> 00:24:55,720.0730059 So we took it off the market.

282 00:24:55,720.0730059 --> 00:24:55,930.0730059 Right.

283 00:24:55,930.0730059 --> 00:24:56,680.0730059 We made a better one.

284 00:24:56,930.0730059 --> 00:25:02,930.0730059 We had a whooping cough vaccine on the market that was causing or contributing in, that was thought to cause neurologic complications.

285 00:25:02,930.0730059 --> 00:25:05,330.0730059 They made a newer one, a better one, a safer one.

286 00:25:05,330.0730059 --> 00:25:06,440.0730059 Like we, we've done this before.

287 00:25:06,440.0730059 --> 00:25:08,110.0730059 Rotavirus was causing intussusception.

288 00:25:08,460.0730059 --> 00:25:12,515.0730059 They took it off the market made a better one, right?

Like this has happened, but a lot of this happened before.

289 00:25:12,515.0730059 --> 00:25:14,885.0730059 We haven't seen a lot of that, I would say in the last 20 years.

290 00:25:14,885.0730059 --> 00:25:17,135.0730059 And I don't think there's a big push for innovation.

291 00:25:17,135.0730059 --> 00:25:21,665.0730059 I mean, I know they're working on stuff, but, uh, ultimately they don't have that push for safety.

292 00:25:21,665.0730059 --> 00:25:27,455.0730059 And I think that has to come from the doctors to say, not just assume that they're safe but study it.

293 00:25:27,875.0730059 --> 00:25:32,885.0730059 Uh, and I think there's a lot of assumption on safety, which I don't think is actually backed by the research has ever been done.

294 00:25:33,665.0730059 --> 00:25:36,35.0730059 So it's so interesting to hear you say all of this.

295 00:25:36,35.0730059 --> 00:25:40,565.0730059 I, I'm just like nodding my head till my head falls off because I agree with so much of it, but it's like.

296 00:25:41,915.0730059 --> 00:25:46,625.0730059 The only, and look, I know that our algorithm feeds us the things that are gonna trigger us the most.

297 00:25:46,625.0730059 --> 00:25:59,70.0730059 Like I, I totally understand how all of that is set up, but the only argument that I have seen traditional mainstream medical professionals push is that vaccines are safe.

298 00:25:59,220.0730059 --> 00:26:00,300.0730059 You should trust it.

299 00:26:00,450.0730059 --> 00:26:01,890.0730059 We have used it forever.

300 00:26:01,980.0730059 --> 00:26:04,890.0730059 There are clinical trials, we know it is safe.

301 00:26:04,890.0730059 --> 00:26:06,450.0730059 Look at this Swedish study.

302 00:26:06,450.0730059 --> 00:26:09,390.0730059 They found no rates of autism and Tylenol.

303 00:26:09,390.0730059 --> 00:26:25,410.0730059 And it's like, but when you look at those studies, most of them are not done with true placebos and or with truly unvaccinated children, right?

They are against past versions of that same vaccine.

304 00:26:25,620.0730059 --> 00:26:49,570.0730059 So for me, that's incredibly flawed because it is saying like, vaccine B is better than A, and it's like, yeah, of course you would hope that as we move forward with technology and medical advancements we're improving things, it would be a super problem if B was worse than a, and so for me, that doesn't give it too much weight.

305 00:26:49,570.0730059 --> 00:26:50,860.0730059 It just, I don't know.

306 00:26:50,860.0730059 --> 00:27:05,260.0730059 I just, um, I really struggle with the mainstream narrative because it is very few mainstream providers are willing to have the conversation of validating parents in, yes, this is scary.

307 00:27:05,410.0730059 --> 00:27:07,450.0730059 Yes, there's a lot going on here.

308 00:27:07,450.0730059 --> 00:27:09,910.0730059 And yes, I do think that there should be more studies.

309 00:27:09,910.0730059 --> 00:27:14,350.0730059 There's so many of them who are like, well, the studies exist, so you should just sit down and be quiet and trust it.

310 00:27:14,380.0730059 --> 00:27:21,10.0730059 And I think that is really ruining the trust in so many families with the healthcare system.

311 00:27:21,640.0730059 --> 00:27:21,730.0730059 Right.

312 00:27:21,730.0730059 --> 00:27:27,160.0730059 And, and I just think that I can only look at things from, from my perspective and what I've seen.

313 00:27:27,820.0730059 --> 00:27:30,10.0730059 I was trained in a certain way, and that's the way that I thought.

314 00:27:30,10.0730059 --> 00:27:32,290.0730059 And then you don't look into this until you are forced to.

315 00:27:32,290.0730059 --> 00:27:42,880.0730059 And I was forced to because I did integrative medicine and people asked me questions and I was in that space and I was really forced to because I, if I decided to write a book, which I did during the pandemic, cause I was so frustrated.

316 00:27:43,475.0730059 --> 00:27:50,715.0730059 I felt like I have to know as much as possible and be as accurate as possible because this is obviously the most contentious topic.

317 00:27:50,715.0730059 --> 00:27:55,125.0730059 And certainly if you think back to that time, like, I'm doing this, I don't even know if I'm gonna have a career after I'm done with it.

318 00:27:55,125.0730059 --> 00:28:00,895.0730059 Like, it's different now, luckily, so we can talk about it, but it had to be accurate, it had to be airtight couldn't be mistakes.

319 00:28:00,945.0730059 --> 00:28:10,740.0730059 And so I, I just didn't know most of the research and a lot of what we're told and taught is not actually what the research shows or actually is.

320 00:28:11,140.0730059 --> 00:28:14,380.0730059 And the more that you listen to the.

321 00:28:14,800.0730059 --> 00:28:18,205.0730059 I dunno, the heroes of medicine are like the big, like the Plotkins and Dr.

322 00:28:18,205.0730059 --> 00:28:23,350.0730059 Edwards, and you hear them on the stand with Aaron Siri talking about vaccines and, and going back through it.

323 00:28:23,350.0730059 --> 00:28:29,680.0730059 You're like a lot of what is said is we don't, we haven't seen any problem with this, so therefore it doesn't exist.

324 00:28:30,40.0730059 --> 00:28:34,0.0730059 But the reality when they talk about it, but there isn't a study to actually study that thing.

325 00:28:34,240.0730059 --> 00:28:39,130.0730059 So you're saying that there isn't a problem without actually having the backing of the data that you're saying.

326 00:28:39,130.0730059 --> 00:28:46,870.0730059 So you're just assuming that it's safe because you haven't seen something that shows it's unsafe and that is not a, the best way that we should be following this.

327 00:28:46,870.0730059 --> 00:28:52,70.0730059 It doesn't mean that it's unsafe, but it, it's just not, completely honest or completely accurate.

328 00:28:52,70.0730059 --> 00:28:52,80.0730059 Mm-hmm.

329 00:28:53,150.0730059 --> 00:28:58,370.0730059 And, and I, I want to see that, that data, and I don't want people to stop getting vaccines or get lots of diseases.

330 00:28:58,370.0730059 --> 00:29:00,440.0730059 I just want it to be as safe as possible.

331 00:29:00,810.0730059 --> 00:29:03,570.0730059 And I wanna have discussions and I'm totally fine being wrong about things.

332 00:29:03,570.0730059 --> 00:29:09,360.0730059 I'm totally fine to change what I, what I think depending on what pe and that's why I just thought it was so interesting because I don't know why he thinks that way.

333 00:29:09,360.0730059 --> 00:29:12,360.0730059 And I would love to hear why he think it's unethical, but.

334 00:29:13,80.0730059 --> 00:29:16,410.0730059 I also wanna know why we don't have vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies.

335 00:29:16,410.0730059 --> 00:29:26,920.0730059 Like there's so much data out there and it's, you don't wanna get conspiratorial, but it's like, why doesn't Kaiser take all their data from the last 20 years and be like, all right, let's look at a vaccinated versus un vaccinated kids.

336 00:29:27,220.0730059 --> 00:29:29,770.0730059 You're like, well, you know, there are all these things that you have to deal with.

337 00:29:29,800.0730059 --> 00:29:30,40.0730059 Okay.

338 00:29:30,40.0730059 --> 00:29:34,60.0730059 So like, figure out how to do the statistical analysis and do it, and do it like 15 different ways.

339 00:29:34,60.0730059 --> 00:29:34,630.0730059 I don't care.

340 00:29:34,780.0730059 --> 00:29:36,550.0730059 Get 10 different teams to look at it.

341 00:29:36,880.0730059 --> 00:29:40,330.0730059 Do, you know, put in different confounders, show all that stuff.

342 00:29:40,720.0730059 --> 00:29:41,650.0730059 Uh, and, and let's see.

343 00:29:41,650.0730059 --> 00:29:43,90.0730059 Like, okay, no, no confounders.

344 00:29:43,90.0730059 --> 00:29:43,660.0730059 Here's what it shows.

345 00:29:43,660.0730059 --> 00:29:46,840.0730059 These things we're including, here's what it shows how many visits they had.

346 00:29:46,840.0730059 --> 00:29:47,530.0730059 Here's what it shows.

347 00:29:47,530.0730059 --> 00:29:54,410.0730059 It's like there's, so the same thing happens over and over again with the research where there's this huge signal of concern around vaccines.

348 00:29:54,410.0730059 --> 00:29:57,260.0730059 And it's like, oh, well, you just have to adjust for how many visits they have.

349 00:29:57,260.0730059 --> 00:29:58,610.0730059 And then the whole thing goes away.

350 00:29:58,610.0730059 --> 00:29:59,540.0730059 And it's like, well, right.

351 00:30:00,365.0730059 --> 00:30:05,495.0730059 You do wanna control for visits in some sense, because if somebody never gets seen, they can't have a diagnosis.

352 00:30:05,495.0730059 --> 00:30:12,305.0730059 But also there's a real possibility that kids that don't get something or don't get vaccines could just be healthier and are not coming in more.

353 00:30:12,305.0730059 --> 00:30:23,945.0730059 And, and I don't know why in a database where you have good data, like really good data, that you would assume that you wouldn't pick up things like cancer or asthma or allergies or autoimmune conditions.

354 00:30:23,945.0730059 --> 00:30:25,835.0730059 Like those kids would still come to the doctor.

355 00:30:26,15.0730059 --> 00:30:34,325.0730059 So as long as they're still going to the doctor in general over that time period, I don't think an unvaccinated kid who has cancer is not gonna come to the doctor.

356 00:30:34,565.0730059 --> 00:30:37,285.0730059 Like they, they will get seen and picked up at some point.

357 00:30:37,285.0730059 --> 00:30:39,415.0730059 I, yes, it's possible they'd go outside the system.

358 00:30:39,685.0730059 --> 00:30:43,45.0730059 Yes, it's possible they don't come in as much, but I, I just don't think that that's true.

359 00:30:43,45.0730059 --> 00:30:46,285.0730059 If you have an asthma exacerbation, you gonna the hospital like, I think that's gonna happen.

360 00:30:46,945.0730059 --> 00:30:47,275.0730059 So.

361 00:30:48,310.0730059 --> 00:30:56,815.0730059 I I, I think that theory holds for like an ear infection, you know, something more mild than, yeah, you probably, the unvaccinated kids, they're just not as interested in modern medicine.

362 00:30:56,815.0730059 --> 00:30:58,975.0730059 They don't go in as much, they just don't take medicine.

363 00:30:58,975.0730059 --> 00:31:02,785.0730059 So probably, yeah, there, there's a lot of under-reporting of an ear infection or just ear pain.

364 00:31:02,995.0730059 --> 00:31:06,670.0730059 And more people get diagnosis of ear infection 'cause they're gonna come in more and get the diagnosis.

365 00:31:06,670.0730059 --> 00:31:09,835.0730059 But I don't know if that holds for the more serious things.

366 00:31:09,840.0730059 --> 00:31:10,225.0730059 I, I don't know.

367 00:31:10,225.0730059 --> 00:31:13,495.0730059 I don't, I know what the answer is, but I, I don't think you couldn't study them.

368 00:31:13,495.0730059 --> 00:31:27,715.0730059 And I think that's anyways where the prospective trials come in because you're then looking at kids regardless of whether they come in and you're saying, oh, do you have autism?

Do you have ADHD?

Do you have, do asthma?

Have you been to the hospital?

Like, these things can be picked up even if a kid never goes into the doctor.

369 00:31:28,45.0730059 --> 00:31:33,205.0730059 And that could be the difference of having the best kind of study that we actually need the information for.

370 00:31:33,775.0730059 --> 00:31:34,525.0730059 And that's what I want.

371 00:31:34,525.0730059 --> 00:31:35,935.0730059 I wanna know, I don't know the answer.

372 00:31:35,935.0730059 --> 00:31:37,225.0730059 I don't know about autism.

373 00:31:37,225.0730059 --> 00:31:39,625.0730059 I the, you know, we, we hear, oh, it's all debunked.

374 00:31:39,625.0730059 --> 00:31:40,45.0730059 It's settled.

375 00:31:40,345.0730059 --> 00:31:43,375.0730059 It's not like, it's just not like you look at research and it's just not.

376 00:31:44,5.0730059 --> 00:31:46,405.0730059 And that's, that's a ridiculous thing to say when you look at it.

377 00:31:46,405.0730059 --> 00:31:47,305.0730059 And that's just what it is.

378 00:31:47,305.0730059 --> 00:31:51,115.0730059 I mean, we studied MMR, we studied thimerosal, we haven't studied all the vaccines.

379 00:31:51,115.0730059 --> 00:31:52,225.0730059 There's a lot of new vaccines.

380 00:31:52,225.0730059 --> 00:31:53,485.0730059 We haven't studied them together.

381 00:31:53,755.0730059 --> 00:31:57,865.0730059 Even the studies that we have, it's MMR versus no MMR in the setting of getting your other vaccines.

382 00:31:57,865.0730059 --> 00:31:59,185.0730059 That's not answering the question.

383 00:31:59,575.0730059 --> 00:32:07,735.0730059 That's not saying that vaccines do cause autism, but it's not answering the question of if you are unvaccinated, do you have a lower chance of having autism?

That's the question that people have.

384 00:32:07,735.0730059 --> 00:32:18,355.0730059 If you're unvaccinated, do you have a lower chance of chronic disease?

And there are plenty of studies that are maybe not, the best studies are kind of been debunked that show that maybe unvaccinated kids are healthier.

385 00:32:18,625.0730059 --> 00:32:27,85.0730059 And by experience of all the people that take care of vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids, almost all of them say that they feel like the unvaccinated kids are healthier.

386 00:32:27,325.0730059 --> 00:32:36,715.0730059 So I think that that's some interesting data that should be looked at and, you know, could be just biased, you know, based on, on the individuals we're taking care of on vaccinated kids more.

387 00:32:36,715.0730059 --> 00:32:41,935.0730059 But ultimately that's enough to signal that we need to look into this because.

388 00:32:42,685.0730059 --> 00:32:47,725.0730059 We have to be able to discuss the potential complications of something that we're doing.

389 00:32:47,725.0730059 --> 00:32:49,645.0730059 It can't all just be about reducing disease.

390 00:32:49,645.0730059 --> 00:32:53,785.0730059 It has to be reducing disease, but also minimizing the long-term complications.

391 00:32:53,785.0730059 --> 00:33:03,865.0730059 And if you're decreasing your risk of, I don't know, whooping cough, but increasing your risk of autoimmune condition at a much higher rate, but that's not a good trade off.

392 00:33:04,75.0730059 --> 00:33:04,195.0730059 Mm-hmm.

393 00:33:04,435.0730059 --> 00:33:07,925.0730059 So that question is not, should we not be protecting against whooping cough?

It's okay.

394 00:33:07,925.0730059 --> 00:33:13,865.0730059 Then how do we make a vaccine that can protect against whooping cough that also doesn't have that complication, but you have to identify the complications first.

395 00:33:14,135.0730059 --> 00:33:25,625.0730059 Then you ask, okay, why?

Like, why is it increasing asthma?

Why is it increasing auto?

Is it aluminum?

Is it another ingredient?

Is it all of the vaccines together?

Is it the schedule?

Like, why is this happening?

Okay, let's do it differently.

396 00:33:25,625.0730059 --> 00:33:28,655.0730059 It doesn't mean we have to stop vaccinating, just figure out how to do it better.

397 00:33:29,675.0730059 --> 00:33:58,400.0730059 Which, you know what?

What are the chances that the better answer is to not do so many in that first year, to spread them out and to give they're little bodies longer to, you know, get all of the vaccines and maybe we re-look at the schedule altogether and say which ones are actually truly necessary and truly have the benefits of what we're trying to achieve, and then make the rest of them optional.

398 00:33:58,400.0730059 --> 00:34:09,510.0730059 Which a large question that I got out of this series was an argument of herd immunity versus, you know, self kind of, like self thought, which we'll go into later.

399 00:34:09,510.0730059 --> 00:34:20,835.0730059 But I'd love to hear your idea on a spaced out type of schedule versus shoving, you know, what is it like 80 vaccines into the first year?

Right.

400 00:34:20,835.0730059 --> 00:34:24,375.0730059 Well, I mean, the answer to that question depends on how safe they are.

401 00:34:24,495.0730059 --> 00:34:36,295.0730059 Right?

And that's something that we, you don't know, right?

Like, I think that's the hard part with this because the, the mainstream medical kind of opinion, if you would ask, you know, most doctors would be, well, why would we need to space it out like they're safe?

They don't cause issues.

402 00:34:36,355.0730059 --> 00:34:39,955.0730059 You have to prove that they're causing issues before you're gonna make any changes.

403 00:34:40,255.0730059 --> 00:34:42,895.0730059 So you, you have to be open to studying that in the first place.

404 00:34:42,925.0730059 --> 00:34:47,185.0730059 And we're, we're not studying things prospectively forward for many years.

405 00:34:47,185.0730059 --> 00:34:50,755.0730059 Like, you have to keep in mind the way that these things are studied in general.

406 00:34:50,755.0730059 --> 00:34:52,195.0730059 They're studied before they hit the market.

407 00:34:52,195.0730059 --> 00:34:55,525.0730059 They're studied on their own or maybe with a few other vaccines.

408 00:34:55,555.0730059 --> 00:34:57,235.0730059 And they're studied for a couple months, maybe a year or two.

409 00:34:57,235.0730059 --> 00:34:57,655.0730059 If you're lucky.

410 00:34:57,655.0730059 --> 00:34:59,365.0730059 They're not studied for five years or 10 years.

411 00:34:59,365.0730059 --> 00:35:02,35.0730059 They're not studied forward and they're certainly not studied with unvaccinated kids.

412 00:35:02,245.0730059 --> 00:35:03,565.0730059 'cause that's thought to be unethical.

413 00:35:03,805.0730059 --> 00:35:06,295.0730059 So we don't actually know.

414 00:35:06,295.0730059 --> 00:35:07,615.0730059 And, and they may cause no problems.

415 00:35:07,615.0730059 --> 00:35:12,895.0730059 It may have nothing through that maybe, you know, to do with all sorts of other things, but we actually don't know.

416 00:35:12,895.0730059 --> 00:35:17,215.0730059 So to adjust the schedule or to make changes based on that.

417 00:35:17,770.0730059 --> 00:35:20,830.0730059 The first step in that is to even acknowledge that there could be an issue.

418 00:35:20,955.0730059 --> 00:35:21,75.0730059 Hmm.

419 00:35:21,100.0730059 --> 00:35:31,410.0730059 Then study that issue and then if you do find the issue, then to ask why and just make changes in a scientific way based on how you prevent illness while minimizing the complications.

420 00:35:31,410.0730059 --> 00:35:34,140.0730059 But you have to at least acknowledge they could cause a problem first.

421 00:35:34,140.0730059 --> 00:35:35,400.0730059 And I don't even think we're there.

422 00:35:35,430.0730059 --> 00:35:35,580.0730059 Right.

423 00:35:35,580.0730059 --> 00:35:37,920.0730059 I think we're still at the like, oh, it causes one in a million issues.

424 00:35:37,920.0730059 --> 00:35:39,660.0730059 Oh, there's no biological plausibility.

425 00:35:39,660.0730059 --> 00:35:41,420.0730059 And then you're like we know it causes seizures.

426 00:35:41,450.0730059 --> 00:35:42,570.0730059 We know it causes Guillain-Barre.

427 00:35:42,590.0730059 --> 00:35:44,90.0730059 We know it causes encephalitis.

428 00:35:44,540.0730059 --> 00:35:46,490.0730059 We know that there's a list of things that it can cause.

429 00:35:46,520.0730059 --> 00:36:00,170.0730059 Why couldn't it cause the other things too, in a subset of population sometimes, like you, you just say it doesn't, but like, how do you know that?

How do you know that it doesn't cause it?

Because some studies show that it does, and some studies show that they don't, but they're, they're almost all biased.

430 00:36:00,170.0730059 --> 00:36:04,190.0730059 You always see the very pro-vaccine people show the vaccines are the best thing ever and never cause an issue.

431 00:36:04,190.0730059 --> 00:36:08,630.0730059 And then the people that are air quotes, anti-vax, their studies show that vaccines cause all sorts of problems.

432 00:36:08,630.0730059 --> 00:36:13,10.0730059 And I think that's because epidemiology and it's malleable and you can show things how you want to show them.

433 00:36:13,400.0730059 --> 00:36:19,370.0730059 And the only way to actually get a real answer is to follow prospectively and do the best kind of trials.

434 00:36:19,370.0730059 --> 00:36:23,450.0730059 And until we do that, I don't know what the best answer is.

435 00:36:23,840.0730059 --> 00:36:29,420.0730059 Um, so that's where you have to go with parental choice and kind of inform consent and make and doing what you feel like is best.

436 00:36:29,420.0730059 --> 00:36:31,460.0730059 And lots of people in my practice do a slow schedule.

437 00:36:31,460.0730059 --> 00:36:34,400.0730059 I mean, you know, for people that don't know me, I, I believe in informed consent.

438 00:36:34,455.0730059 --> 00:36:36,335.0730059 I don't believe in forcing people to do things.

439 00:36:36,335.0730059 --> 00:36:37,685.0730059 I'm not against vaccines at all.

440 00:36:37,685.0730059 --> 00:36:38,645.0730059 We have them in our office.

441 00:36:38,645.0730059 --> 00:36:39,935.0730059 We have people that do the regular schedule.

442 00:36:39,935.0730059 --> 00:36:41,615.0730059 Some do a slow schedule, some don't do it.

443 00:36:41,885.0730059 --> 00:36:43,625.0730059 Most do some sort of slow schedule.

444 00:36:44,15.0730059 --> 00:36:46,175.0730059 Um, and I don't have a problem with that personally.

445 00:36:46,175.0730059 --> 00:36:46,535.0730059 I think.

446 00:36:47,540.0730059 --> 00:36:50,240.0730059 You know, if that's what makes people comfortable doing it, then that's fine.

447 00:36:50,580.0730059 --> 00:36:58,830.0730059 For me, and, and I know that's not always an option for everybody, but I, I think that, you know, for the patients that they can come in as much as they want to come in, then, then that's fine if it makes 'em comfortable.

448 00:36:59,370.0730059 --> 00:37:01,800.0730059 And, uh, I, I think those are the right questions.

449 00:37:01,950.0730059 --> 00:37:04,140.0730059 Like, I, I think those are the questions we should be asking.

450 00:37:04,140.0730059 --> 00:37:12,10.0730059 And, and even simple things like, well, can we make the schedule safer?

Like maybe there are ones that we just need to prioritize on there more.

451 00:37:12,400.0730059 --> 00:37:15,370.0730059 Uh, and maybe we just don't have to do all of them in that first year or two.

452 00:37:15,370.0730059 --> 00:37:17,50.0730059 Like maybe some of them we can move to later.

453 00:37:17,50.0730059 --> 00:37:25,60.0730059 And yes, like there you might increase the risk a little bit of some things, but that goes against, well, what are the, the complication rates, right?

Like you can't just vaccinate for everything.

454 00:37:25,430.0730059 --> 00:37:30,110.0730059 There's probably at some point too much of a good thing, right?

If you believe that vaccines are the best thing ever.

455 00:37:30,110.0730059 --> 00:37:33,470.0730059 At some point there are just too many and, you know, maybe we're there, maybe we're not.

456 00:37:33,900.0730059 --> 00:37:36,510.0730059 But ultimately you can't just keep giving kids a thousand vaccines.

457 00:37:36,510.0730059 --> 00:37:37,80.0730059 And so.

458 00:37:38,205.0730059 --> 00:37:43,65.0730059 Where is that point?

And then when do we prioritize, like, okay, maybe we think measles is more important.

459 00:37:43,65.0730059 --> 00:37:48,705.0730059 Let's keep that one in, uh, polio, we haven't seen that in 40 years in America, so maybe we don't have to do that for a two month old.

460 00:37:48,705.0730059 --> 00:37:50,435.0730059 Maybe we can do that when they're 10.

461 00:37:50,715.0730059 --> 00:37:52,115.0730059 Uh, obviously if polio comes back.

462 00:37:52,115.0730059 --> 00:37:52,995.0730059 That would change things.

463 00:37:52,995.0730059 --> 00:37:59,955.0730059 But as of right now, if you haven't seen polio or diptheria, uh, or these things like maybe those don't need to be antigens.

464 00:37:59,955.0730059 --> 00:38:00,975.0730059 We give a two month old.

465 00:38:01,185.0730059 --> 00:38:10,55.0730059 Maybe we can do that later and just prioritize, you know, Haemophilus and, and RSV and things that your kid and whooping cough and things that your kid might actually see.

466 00:38:10,55.0730059 --> 00:38:12,215.0730059 Or maybe you create a different version like whooping cough.

467 00:38:12,215.0730059 --> 00:38:14,645.0730059 They gotta get five, four, or five in the first year or two.

468 00:38:14,645.0730059 --> 00:38:16,775.0730059 Like how good a vaccine is that actually Right.

469 00:38:16,955.0730059 --> 00:38:21,215.0730059 And even then you still need to get 'em every several years, right?

The immunity goes away.

470 00:38:21,515.0730059 --> 00:38:27,755.0730059 So maybe getting a vaccine with aluminum in it five times is not the best option for protection against whooping cough.

471 00:38:27,755.0730059 --> 00:38:28,415.0730059 Like maybe.

472 00:38:29,150.0730059 --> 00:38:37,320.0730059 We need a new vaccine like RSV, where it's just an antibody shot that you give kids, uh, early and then it just lasts them for that, that period in the first couple months where they're really most at risk.

473 00:38:37,320.0730059 --> 00:38:38,190.0730059 Like maybe that's the answer.

474 00:38:38,190.0730059 --> 00:38:44,740.0730059 Instead of giving kids three in the first couple months because we don't really need diptheria or, or tetanus when you're newborn in general.

475 00:38:44,740.0730059 --> 00:38:49,690.0730059 So maybe you just have to protect against whooping coughin or that could be combined with one of the other vaccines they're already getting.

476 00:38:49,690.0730059 --> 00:38:54,730.0730059 So you have like a whooping cough, homo vaccine and that's what you give the new, I don't know, I dunno what the answer is.

477 00:38:54,730.0730059 --> 00:38:59,950.0730059 Like this is what, what the smarter people are supposed to discuss, but it just seems like we're doing more and not taking anything away.

478 00:39:01,420.0730059 --> 00:39:14,370.0730059 And also we're not super improving our, our outcomes, right?

Is like the more that we're giving, the more questions parents have, the more injuries that we're finding, except these voices are being silenced.

479 00:39:14,400.0730059 --> 00:39:17,940.0730059 No one is, is going to those voices and saying like, yes, we hear you.

480 00:39:17,940.0730059 --> 00:39:19,230.0730059 We're gonna look into this.

481 00:39:19,230.0730059 --> 00:39:26,10.0730059 Um, except people like you and, and I think there are a growing number of providers out there who are starting to.

482 00:39:26,865.0730059 --> 00:39:33,735.0730059 Be more open to having people in their practice that are, you know, doing a delayed schedule or no vaccines at all.

483 00:39:33,735.0730059 --> 00:39:38,145.0730059 But it's really hard to find as someone who's having a baby in the next few weeks.

484 00:39:38,435.0730059 --> 00:39:40,595.0730059 It's been incredibly hard to find a provider.

485 00:39:40,595.0730059 --> 00:39:45,215.0730059 And I'm in the, I'm in the Boston area, so I'm in a, you know, metropolitan area.

486 00:39:45,215.0730059 --> 00:39:48,605.0730059 I am in a healthcare mecca of our nation.

487 00:39:48,695.0730059 --> 00:39:51,955.0730059 We have so many providers at our fingertips.

488 00:39:52,345.0730059 --> 00:40:14,80.0730059 And my questions when I interview pediatricians are, how open are you to, you know, having me be an active participant in my child's care?

How open are you to having collaborative care?

And it is really alarming the number of pediatricians who will say that's not really kind of our philosophy.

489 00:40:14,140.0730059 --> 00:40:21,550.0730059 And I'm like, what do you mean?

What do you mean that's not your, how can you be a provider?

And that's not your philosophy.

490 00:40:21,550.0730059 --> 00:40:36,50.0730059 It is so confusing to me when a provider believes and genuinely believes in their heart that they know about my baby or the decisions that I should make for my family better than I do when they see me every so often.

491 00:40:36,50.0730059 --> 00:40:38,900.0730059 That's just, it's a really hard pill for me to swallow.

492 00:40:39,320.0730059 --> 00:40:39,710.0730059 Yeah.

493 00:40:39,770.0730059 --> 00:40:42,105.0730059 Well, and I don't think that doctors know better than parents.

494 00:40:42,105.0730059 --> 00:40:49,5.0730059 I think mom's intuition is maybe the most important thing, but I think that doctors believe in vaccines so much, and many of them do.

495 00:40:49,5.0730059 --> 00:40:49,635.0730059 And so.

496 00:40:50,655.0730059 --> 00:41:01,905.0730059 There are many, many providers that would say, well, if you don't believe in vaccines, then that means you don't believe in science and I'm not the right provider for you, because therefore you're gonna be questioning everything else that I do, and it's gonna be more difficult.

497 00:41:01,935.0730059 --> 00:41:04,125.0730059 And also you're not, you're not protected.

498 00:41:04,125.0730059 --> 00:41:07,875.0730059 Therefore, the other patients in my practice are more at risk because you're more at risk.

499 00:41:07,905.0730059 --> 00:41:09,165.0730059 So I, I get that.

500 00:41:09,165.0730059 --> 00:41:10,815.0730059 I, I do understand that perspective.

501 00:41:10,815.0730059 --> 00:41:16,185.0730059 I just don't totally agree with it because I, I personally believe that it should be people's choice of what they do.

502 00:41:16,185.0730059 --> 00:41:19,515.0730059 And there are many things that people choose that are very different than what I might choose.

503 00:41:19,755.0730059 --> 00:41:26,535.0730059 And even if I a hundred percent agree that everybody should be vaccinated all the time, I, that doesn't mean that that's what everybody in my practice should do.

504 00:41:26,865.0730059 --> 00:41:32,625.0730059 You know, I think our job has always been to do the best that we can for everybody, no matter what.

505 00:41:32,625.0730059 --> 00:41:36,975.0730059 Like, if you're in the hospital and someone just murdered somebody and you're treating them like, it doesn't matter.

506 00:41:36,975.0730059 --> 00:41:38,685.0730059 Like that's what you're taught is like, you don't worry about that.

507 00:41:38,685.0730059 --> 00:41:39,285.0730059 You just treat them.

508 00:41:39,285.0730059 --> 00:41:39,465.0730059 Right.

509 00:41:39,465.0730059 --> 00:41:44,415.0730059 And, and I think that you might completely disagree with, with somebody's general life choices, but ultimately.

510 00:41:45,195.0730059 --> 00:41:46,935.0730059 That's their decision to make.

511 00:41:46,940.0730059 --> 00:41:50,200.0730059 And medicine's moved much more into my way or the highway and, and yep.

512 00:41:50,200.0730059 --> 00:41:51,610.0730059 It's digging it heels in right now.

513 00:41:51,760.0730059 --> 00:41:57,490.0730059 And the craziest thing to me overall is that position is actually creating the exact opposite effect.

514 00:41:57,640.0730059 --> 00:41:57,880.0730059 Yep.

515 00:41:58,280.0730059 --> 00:42:04,130.0730059 And, and I don't think that medicine really realizes yet, but they, COVID basically was the failure of PR of medicine.

516 00:42:04,130.0730059 --> 00:42:08,180.0730059 And that's why nobody trusts doctors anymore, or very few people do compared to what they used to.

517 00:42:08,180.0730059 --> 00:42:14,530.0730059 Because when you are not willing to partner, then people say, well, I don't I don't trust what happened in COVID now.

518 00:42:14,530.0730059 --> 00:42:15,490.0730059 I don't trust anything.

519 00:42:15,680.0730059 --> 00:42:16,580.0730059 And that's where we are.

520 00:42:16,580.0730059 --> 00:42:18,470.0730059 And you're seeing the highest rates of unvaccinated kids.

521 00:42:18,470.0730059 --> 00:42:20,420.0730059 You're seeing the highest rates of exemptions.

522 00:42:20,420.0730059 --> 00:42:24,425.0730059 You're seeing the highest rates of distrust in, in medicine.

523 00:42:24,425.0730059 --> 00:42:31,475.0730059 And, and you look at the latest polls and it's like 50 plus percent of parents are not sure if they want to get fully vaccinated, don't believe that they should be forced anymore.

524 00:42:31,785.0730059 --> 00:42:34,635.0730059 Or people should be forced to do it, aren't gonna follow the regular schedule.

525 00:42:34,635.0730059 --> 00:42:38,325.0730059 Like those numbers are very different than they were even 20, even 10 years ago.

526 00:42:38,325.0730059 --> 00:42:40,725.0730059 Like, where it was like most people thought that you should be vaccinated.

527 00:42:40,725.0730059 --> 00:42:43,565.0730059 And, uh, it it's not even most people anymore.

528 00:42:43,565.0730059 --> 00:42:46,685.0730059 It's, it's like less than 50% of people follow a regular schedule.

529 00:42:46,685.0730059 --> 00:42:49,205.0730059 So that's a failure.

530 00:42:49,210.0730059 --> 00:43:07,630.0730059 And, and modern medicine has to step back and be a little bit more humble and say like, Hey, where are we going wrong?

Like, why do people not trust us?

Why are people not wanting to listen?

What's going on?

And I think most of the answer is, instead of partnering it is telling, it's like it's not educating it's forcing.

531 00:43:07,630.0730059 --> 00:43:14,600.0730059 And I, I think that the most simple solution overall would be to.

532 00:43:15,5.0730059 --> 00:43:17,45.0730059 Agree that we're not gonna force people to do something.

533 00:43:17,255.0730059 --> 00:43:23,875.0730059 And I think if we came to that agreement then you would see the temperature really go down.

534 00:43:23,875.0730059 --> 00:43:23,935.0730059 Yeah.

535 00:43:24,205.0730059 --> 00:43:25,885.0730059 On the vaccine feel.

536 00:43:25,885.0730059 --> 00:43:28,945.0730059 Because I think that people are just so worried they're gonna be forced to do things they don't wanna do.

537 00:43:28,945.0730059 --> 00:43:33,595.0730059 They saw it happen during COVID and they're like, well, what happens in the next pandemic might force you something else.

538 00:43:33,595.0730059 --> 00:43:46,265.0730059 What happens if I'm forced to connect my brain to something like, are you gonna make me do that?

Like where does the line get drawn?

And I don't think we need to force people to vaccinate because the vast majority of people do anyways as you're talking.

539 00:43:46,265.0730059 --> 00:43:48,665.0730059 Like 1% of people don't vaccinate.

540 00:43:48,665.0730059 --> 00:43:49,865.0730059 It's not a high percent.

541 00:43:49,865.0730059 --> 00:43:56,165.0730059 And then there's a, a growing percentage that wants exemptions or doesn't do a full schedule, but does some, but it's not like 50%.

542 00:43:56,195.0730059 --> 00:44:01,205.0730059 I think it'd be a different conversation if you're talking like 30, 40, 50% of people aren't doing it.

543 00:44:01,205.0730059 --> 00:44:05,345.0730059 Then there is some discussion for some of the vaccines around herd immunity, not all of them.

544 00:44:05,345.0730059 --> 00:44:15,185.0730059 And I think that's also just another really crazy thing when you talk about vaccines and, and schools where you're forcing people to get things that don't even create herd immunity, which is true of a lot of the vaccines.

545 00:44:15,545.0730059 --> 00:44:17,980.0730059 So I think there's just a lot of discussion there.

546 00:44:17,980.0730059 --> 00:44:23,620.0730059 And, and I think ultimately if you were ever to even force a vaccine, it should be things that protect other people, not just yourself.

547 00:44:23,620.0730059 --> 00:44:24,760.0730059 You should have those options.

548 00:44:24,970.0730059 --> 00:44:25,150.0730059 Hmm.

549 00:44:25,900.0730059 --> 00:44:28,180.0730059 But I don't think there's a need to force vaccines.

550 00:44:28,180.0730059 --> 00:44:33,70.0730059 I, I think that most people will do it, and I think if you educated then just as many people would would do it.

551 00:44:33,70.0730059 --> 00:44:37,990.0730059 And you can look across the country and there are many states that don't force it, and yet still most people vaccinate.

552 00:44:37,990.0730059 --> 00:44:41,440.0730059 They're not just everyone's flocking to not vaccinate because you're not forced to do it for school.

553 00:44:41,780.0730059 --> 00:44:49,250.0730059 So yeah, I know the numbers are slightly increased in states where you do force it, but I'm not sure that that ultimately is going to lead to better vaccination rates.

554 00:44:49,550.0730059 --> 00:44:51,50.0730059 I think it's leading to more homeschooling.

555 00:44:51,450.0730059 --> 00:44:55,930.0730059 And I think from what I've seen, based on the it's hard to like calculate 'cause it's so complicated.

556 00:44:55,930.0730059 --> 00:45:00,910.0730059 But I tried to look into this and it, it doesn't seem like the rates of unvaccinated kids have really changed that much.

557 00:45:00,910.0730059 --> 00:45:05,680.0730059 It just seems like people are leaving the system, uh, more and, and unvaccinated or going to other states.

558 00:45:05,680.0730059 --> 00:45:12,10.0730059 So I, I don't know that ultimately overall it really vastly increases the amount of vaccines people are getting to force them to do it.

559 00:45:12,10.0730059 --> 00:45:17,870.0730059 I, I don't, I don't know, maybe we'll argue on that, but I think ultimately in the long run, in the short term, I think it does.

560 00:45:17,870.0730059 --> 00:45:19,280.0730059 Like, I think for COVID, you wa look at it.

561 00:45:19,280.0730059 --> 00:45:26,870.0730059 It's like in that exact time when people are being forced, more people did it, but five years later, most people are not doing it anymore.

562 00:45:26,870.0730059 --> 00:45:26,930.0730059 Hmm.

563 00:45:27,200.0730059 --> 00:45:27,380.0730059 Right.

564 00:45:27,380.0730059 --> 00:45:36,440.0730059 Even that option, like very low percentage of people are doing the COVID vaccines to the point where almost nobody is, and they're, you know, it's not even, uh, recommended for healthy kids anymore or healthy adults.

565 00:45:36,440.0730059 --> 00:45:42,260.0730059 I mean, you know, AAP does, but CDC doesn't, I mean, that's a whole other world, but, but ultimately most people were choosing not to do it.

566 00:45:42,260.0730059 --> 00:45:42,500.0730059 Right.

567 00:45:42,500.0730059 --> 00:45:45,110.0730059 So it didn't work in the long term to force.

568 00:45:45,630.0730059 --> 00:45:50,100.0730059 And so I think we do kind of see that with the other vaccines, and we're seeing that pushback now.

569 00:45:50,100.0730059 --> 00:45:53,100.0730059 And I think the more that there's a pushback, the more people are not gonna do it.

570 00:45:53,100.0730059 --> 00:45:56,940.0730059 And, and less medicine acknowledges what's going on.

571 00:45:56,940.0730059 --> 00:46:00,90.0730059 You're gonna see more and more people in the next couple years pushing back.

572 00:46:00,130.0730059 --> 00:46:03,550.0730059 And I think with all this stuff going with Secretary Kennedy, it's just beginning.

573 00:46:03,730.0730059 --> 00:46:10,830.0730059 And I think that the momentum is started, but the reality of the concerning stuff for the mainstream doctor hasn't even begun yet.

574 00:46:10,830.0730059 --> 00:46:13,470.0730059 It's not even like, it's just at that first step.

575 00:46:13,470.0730059 --> 00:46:17,990.0730059 Like there's so many more things that are gonna be debated over the next couple of years and, uh.

576 00:46:18,730.0730059 --> 00:46:20,800.0730059 The better solution would be to partner up.

577 00:46:20,800.0730059 --> 00:46:21,700.0730059 And I've never seen it.

578 00:46:21,700.0730059 --> 00:46:30,490.0730059 Like I've seen the AAP Sue secretary, I'm like, did you sit down with him?

Did you guys have a conversation?

Did you offer that?

Did you debate anything?

Like, I know he's offered a debate many times in the past.

579 00:46:30,970.0730059 --> 00:46:33,430.0730059 Like I think people need to sit down in a room and talk about it.

580 00:46:33,430.0730059 --> 00:46:38,305.0730059 And I would love to see like Paul Offit sit down in a room with Secretary Kennedy or, or Dr.

581 00:46:38,305.0730059 --> 00:46:43,180.0730059 Patel sit down in a room with, with Kennedy and be like, all right, here are the things that I disagree with.

582 00:46:43,180.0730059 --> 00:46:48,700.0730059 You tell me why, why?

Like, why should I agree with you?

Like you're saying this, tell me why.

583 00:46:48,850.0730059 --> 00:46:49,690.0730059 And he's a smart guy.

584 00:46:49,690.0730059 --> 00:46:50,980.0730059 Like he can remember a lot of facts.

585 00:46:50,980.0730059 --> 00:46:54,910.0730059 So he'll be able to spew off what, what he believes that.

586 00:46:54,910.0730059 --> 00:47:04,30.0730059 And I think ultimately the solution will be to have those conversations and maybe there's some middle ground there and probably people agree on, on a good chunk of so, and maybe, you know, some of the doctors will be, oh, I didn't even know that.

587 00:47:04,60.0730059 --> 00:47:07,150.0730059 'cause there's a lot that I didn't know that I learned.

588 00:47:07,150.0730059 --> 00:47:18,965.0730059 And, and I think there's a lot that Secretary Kennedy knows because he is been in that air quotes anti-vax world and he understands the autism research, he understands the literature around how vaccines were studied.

589 00:47:19,235.0730059 --> 00:47:20,915.0730059 And I don't think a lot of doctors do.

590 00:47:21,5.0730059 --> 00:47:21,665.0730059 I really don't.

591 00:47:21,665.0730059 --> 00:47:23,855.0730059 I I just don't think that they've ever looked at it themselves.

592 00:47:23,855.0730059 --> 00:47:29,175.0730059 And I think if they did, they would be surprised and they would have more questions than they actually do today.

593 00:47:29,625.0730059 --> 00:47:29,955.0730059 Yeah.

594 00:47:30,225.0730059 --> 00:47:39,75.0730059 Oh my God, this conversation is just like so therapeutic and validating for me, this is like a therapy session, so back in COVID and, you know, I'm just a, I'm just a doula.

595 00:47:39,75.0730059 --> 00:47:40,305.0730059 I am not a medical professional.

596 00:47:40,305.0730059 --> 00:47:41,445.0730059 I have no medical background.

597 00:47:41,445.0730059 --> 00:47:42,375.0730059 I'm just a doula.

598 00:47:42,375.0730059 --> 00:47:51,15.0730059 But I, I do pride myself on trying to be very unbiased and neutral and I really pride myself on seeing both sides.

599 00:47:51,15.0730059 --> 00:47:52,905.0730059 And it's something that I work very hard to do.

600 00:47:52,905.0730059 --> 00:48:22,80.0730059 And so when I have someone that thinks very opposite of what kind of, I think I always try and think about their perspective and where are they coming from and how are they making this decision and what has led them to this train of thought, right?

And so in COVID, I was very loud about this is not the way you are going to ruin the public's trust in medicine if you do not stop forcing people to do things.

601 00:48:22,80.0730059 --> 00:48:29,190.0730059 If there's one thing I know, it is when you force a human to do something, they are going to rebel.

602 00:48:29,190.0730059 --> 00:48:30,840.0730059 It is just human nature.

603 00:48:30,840.0730059 --> 00:48:33,300.0730059 There is always going to be a resistance.

604 00:48:33,300.0730059 --> 00:48:38,460.0730059 And I got a lot of pushback and a lot of people made fun of me for just being a doula.

605 00:48:38,460.0730059 --> 00:48:39,270.0730059 You're just a doula.

606 00:48:39,270.0730059 --> 00:48:42,210.0730059 You're uneducated, you don't know, you're not part of the medical system.

607 00:48:42,540.0730059 --> 00:48:48,330.0730059 And now it turns out that that was true and that you really have created this huge divide.

608 00:48:48,330.0730059 --> 00:48:56,40.0730059 And what I think that the healthcare system is missing at this point is that they no longer get unbridled trust.

609 00:48:56,40.0730059 --> 00:48:58,680.0730059 They have to earn it back because people.

610 00:48:59,145.0730059 --> 00:49:00,705.0730059 They're firm in where they are now.

611 00:49:00,735.0730059 --> 00:49:02,385.0730059 There is no more flexibility.

612 00:49:02,385.0730059 --> 00:49:08,265.0730059 There is no more of the American population going and being like, well, they did make a mistake.

613 00:49:08,265.0730059 --> 00:49:09,645.0730059 But I still trust them about that.

614 00:49:09,795.0730059 --> 00:49:12,315.0730059 People are firm, they do not trust medicine.

615 00:49:12,405.0730059 --> 00:49:19,365.0730059 They are very skeptical of mainstream doctors and they are leaving the system in droves and they feel good about it.

616 00:49:19,365.0730059 --> 00:49:33,855.0730059 That's the thing is they don't feel shaky or unsure about their confidence when, when leaving the system, they are doing it confidently and they are saying, this system no longer serves me and I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna see a naturopath.

617 00:49:33,855.0730059 --> 00:49:35,740.0730059 I'm gonna see a nurse practitioner.

618 00:49:35,740.0730059 --> 00:49:38,740.0730059 I'm going to a vaccine neutral pediatrician.

619 00:49:38,745.0730059 --> 00:49:40,150.0730059 And I feel great about it.

620 00:49:40,400.0730059 --> 00:49:43,340.0730059 And I think, so part of me is very happy for that.

621 00:49:43,340.0730059 --> 00:49:52,70.0730059 'cause I, I love watching people like stand in their voice and, and I truly believe that informed consent and, and medical autonomy is like our highest right.

622 00:49:52,70.0730059 --> 00:49:53,540.0730059 So that makes me happy.

623 00:49:54,95.0730059 --> 00:50:13,595.0730059 I feel very sad that it has eroded the trust to a place where I do think there's a portion of the population that even if they get in a situation where they need mainstream media [medicine], their trust may have been eroded so far that they don't seek the care that they need.

624 00:50:13,595.0730059 --> 00:50:16,505.0730059 And I'm, I just get a little fearful of that.

625 00:50:16,505.0730059 --> 00:50:29,465.0730059 And the other piece of this is that my heart breaks when I see pediatricians, you know, like firing or releasing patients because they don't fully vaccinate or they want to follow a delayed schedule.

626 00:50:29,465.0730059 --> 00:50:33,725.0730059 In my brain, I don't know how that's legal and ethical.

627 00:50:33,725.0730059 --> 00:50:42,845.0730059 And again, seeing both sides, I resonate with the fact that you don't agree with that person or that family's choice.

628 00:50:43,475.0730059 --> 00:50:59,105.0730059 But how is it ethical for you?

To not give them any care and to possibly, depending on where you live and the state that you're in and the laws that are in your state, you might have left that family with completely no care at all.

629 00:50:59,105.0730059 --> 00:51:12,305.0730059 I don't know as a provider how you sleep at night knowing, well, I have fired this person, and they're unlikely to be able to find another pediatrician or another doctor because they're not, they don't have they're not vaccinating.

630 00:51:12,305.0730059 --> 00:51:25,415.0730059 They have no records of vaccinations, and so are you okay with that as a provider that you might have left this family completely without pediatric care?

For me, I just, I struggle with that so bad.

631 00:51:25,815.0730059 --> 00:51:35,805.0730059 Yeah, and I think it goes back to the other, like, we kind of talked about it, but it, it's just this, there's a legal aspect and then there's an an ethical, or I guess moral or just personal choice And legally, yeah, you can fire them.

632 00:51:35,805.0730059 --> 00:51:40,95.0730059 I mean, the only reason you can't see someone in business is, is, is you can't get rid of somebody.

633 00:51:40,305.0730059 --> 00:51:50,200.0730059 Discrimination and, and vaccine status is not seen as discriminatory, but you're kind of like, if you want to like really put words to it, you are discriminating against someone for their medical choices.

634 00:51:50,200.0730059 --> 00:51:55,180.0730059 But medical choices, the class so le so legally you can't do that.

635 00:51:55,520.0730059 --> 00:51:57,95.0730059 But, morally.

636 00:51:57,95.0730059 --> 00:51:59,735.0730059 I mean, that's just a different question because that's again, where morals are different.

637 00:51:59,735.0730059 --> 00:52:03,215.0730059 Like you might think, and we, you know, I might think, I think we're on the same page.

638 00:52:03,215.0730059 --> 00:52:06,845.0730059 Like, I think it's, it's not right to just fire someone because they make a different choice than you.

639 00:52:07,145.0730059 --> 00:52:11,285.0730059 But on the other side, the doctors think, well, it's not right to have a person who's unvaccinated in my practice.

640 00:52:11,285.0730059 --> 00:52:12,455.0730059 That puts other people at danger.

641 00:52:12,755.0730059 --> 00:52:13,625.0730059 That's their belief.

642 00:52:13,625.0730059 --> 00:52:16,535.0730059 And so they think that it's moral to, it's immoral to keep them there.

643 00:52:16,535.0730059 --> 00:52:19,260.0730059 So I get, I get their other, I get their perspective.

644 00:52:19,260.0730059 --> 00:52:20,40.0730059 I totally understand.

645 00:52:20,40.0730059 --> 00:52:21,30.0730059 I just don't agree with it.

646 00:52:21,340.0730059 --> 00:52:22,390.0730059 But I, I also.

647 00:52:22,795.0730059 --> 00:52:31,435.0730059 Think to some degree that as long as there's enough doctors that are taking the patients that, that people can get their care, then you probably don't want to go to that doctor who doesn't wanna have you there.

648 00:52:31,765.0730059 --> 00:52:48,175.0730059 Uh, if you don't wanna do vaccines, you probably wanna go somewhere that you can have those discussions because what you get in a situation where you are not wanting to do that, but then you're going to a doctor who doesn't want you, you don't have good communication, and then some other thing comes up and you really do need their help, and, and then they're like dismissing you because they think you're a woo woo parent.

649 00:52:48,685.0730059 --> 00:52:51,655.0730059 And then, then they miss the diagnosis that they would've otherwise got.

650 00:52:51,865.0730059 --> 00:52:57,625.0730059 Whereas it, like, if you had good communication, you might've said the things you needed to say to the doctor so they could've figured out and protected your kids.

651 00:52:57,625.0730059 --> 00:53:01,675.0730059 So I, I think that there's a danger there without good communication.

652 00:53:01,675.0730059 --> 00:53:04,45.0730059 And so you do wanna be someone that has good communication.

653 00:53:04,45.0730059 --> 00:53:08,275.0730059 But I think from a systems perspective, I hope that we move somewhere back to the middle.

654 00:53:08,275.0730059 --> 00:53:12,825.0730059 And that's why I wrote the book, right?

Because it's about moving to the middle and like doctors like Dr.

655 00:53:12,825.0730059 --> 00:53:13,275.0730059 Patel, it's like.

656 00:53:13,605.0730059 --> 00:53:15,915.0730059 I'm on the same team to say, but like we're all the same team.

657 00:53:15,945.0730059 --> 00:53:18,45.0730059 There's no team we're on the team of, of helping kids.

658 00:53:18,45.0730059 --> 00:53:18,315.0730059 Right.

659 00:53:18,315.0730059 --> 00:53:20,985.0730059 And so, you know, we might not agree on every single thing.

660 00:53:20,985.0730059 --> 00:53:25,635.0730059 And I, and I wouldn't agree with any doctor in any single thing or anybody in politics or RFK or anybody else.

661 00:53:25,635.0730059 --> 00:53:26,625.0730059 Like, that's fine.

662 00:53:26,985.0730059 --> 00:53:34,215.0730059 But I, I, I think that if we could have more discussions and debates like this, we may not agree on everything.

663 00:53:34,215.0730059 --> 00:53:36,345.0730059 We probably would agree on 99% of things.

664 00:53:36,675.0730059 --> 00:53:40,365.0730059 Uh, and those other, you know, one or 5% of things, you could debate it and discuss it.

665 00:53:40,365.0730059 --> 00:53:45,15.0730059 Like, I would love as much as possible 'cause I'm happy to be convinced of something else.

666 00:53:45,15.0730059 --> 00:53:46,785.0730059 I just don't understand some perspectives.

667 00:53:46,785.0730059 --> 00:53:54,375.0730059 And I, it's really hard to understand the very, very, very provax perspective when they're never willing to have a discussion or debate about it.

668 00:53:54,375.0730059 --> 00:54:06,135.0730059 And it's like you never hear the Paul Offit or Peter Hotez is, or, or the really like, well I think like Paul Offit is probably the best communicator when it comes to vaccines and his books are great and I read them all for my book.

669 00:54:06,135.0730059 --> 00:54:10,425.0730059 And I think they're excellent If you want the CDC perspective, um, but you never hear him.

670 00:54:11,40.0730059 --> 00:54:41,280.0730059 At least I haven't heard him getting, like really pressed on some of these questions that, that like Secretary Kennedy or individuals of that nature, or someone even like you would have and kind of push them to be like, well, why do you think that you can have a thousand vaccines?

Why are you not worried about small amounts of, of aluminum or fetal tissue?

When someone could walk by a peanut and like get anaphylaxis?

Like, why couldn't that be a problem for some kids?

Why are you not worried that there are no vaccinated versus unvaccinated trials?

Why do you feel like it's unethical to do an unvaccinated trial?

Like what?

I wanna know those answers.

671 00:54:41,280.0730059 --> 00:54:45,450.0730059 And you never hear them because they never talk about them and they never get pushed and they don't do debates.

672 00:54:45,450.0730059 --> 00:54:49,320.0730059 They don't go on, you know, the Joe Rogans and uh, Tucker Carlsons or whatever.

673 00:54:49,320.0730059 --> 00:54:53,400.0730059 They're not going into places where they're gonna get pushed so you don't have the other side.

674 00:54:53,400.0730059 --> 00:54:55,350.0730059 And I would love to know it 'cause it might change my mind.

675 00:54:56,20.0730059 --> 00:55:01,995.0730059 But I, you know, I, like, for example, I read, uh, Paul Offit's recent book I think it's called like Vaccines in Your Family.

676 00:55:02,715.0730059 --> 00:55:02,730.0730059 Oh.

677 00:55:02,730.0730059 --> 00:55:06,975.0730059 And you go through that, the asthma and allergy section, and you go through it and you read it and it's like.

678 00:55:07,485.0730059 --> 00:55:10,485.0730059 There's no research that shows that vaccines cause allergies or asthma.

679 00:55:10,485.0730059 --> 00:55:12,675.0730059 And I'm like, that's not true.

680 00:55:12,675.0730059 --> 00:55:25,355.0730059 Like there are good studies and good journals that show that it might, and you didn't mention any of those studies and you just listed off, these 10 studies and, and while those studies may be better, I don't know, maybe they're not, but that they're not bad studies.

681 00:55:25,355.0730059 --> 00:55:30,435.0730059 It's not wrong with the studies, but it's like there is another side to it and you need to look at both.

682 00:55:30,435.0730059 --> 00:55:41,945.0730059 And why are you writing a book and saying that it's never causing a problem When there's research in like the Journal of Immunology and the Journal of Allergy that shows like, Hey, look like there with increasing aluminum, there's increasing asthma rates.

683 00:55:41,945.0730059 --> 00:55:48,395.0730059 Like these are very, both vaccine people say these things like, why aren't you quoting that study too?

You know, like, like I, I need to see both.

684 00:55:48,395.0730059 --> 00:55:55,445.0730059 And we need to be able to have both on display so people can start to understand why people that are hesitant are hesitant.

685 00:55:55,625.0730059 --> 00:55:55,685.0730059 Hmm.

686 00:55:56,625.0730059 --> 00:55:58,395.0730059 And I just don't, don't see that happening.

687 00:55:58,395.0730059 --> 00:56:01,165.0730059 And I think if you heard somebody like Paul Offit.

688 00:56:01,515.0730059 --> 00:56:09,705.0730059 Being a little bit more nuanced, it would be helpful to the middle, which I think is most people, I, I don't think most people are like, uh, vaccines are the greatest thing ever.

689 00:56:09,705.0730059 --> 00:56:10,365.0730059 I'm always gonna do it.

690 00:56:10,365.0730059 --> 00:56:11,385.0730059 Or most people are like, I'm never doing it.

691 00:56:11,385.0730059 --> 00:56:14,535.0730059 Most parents are in the middle and they're like, I wanna protect my kid.

692 00:56:14,535.0730059 --> 00:56:16,335.0730059 I just wanna make sure I don't cause a problem.

693 00:56:16,335.0730059 --> 00:56:19,575.0730059 And I what?

30 vaccines I gotta do how many today?

Six vaccine.

694 00:56:19,755.0730059 --> 00:56:20,505.0730059 That seems like a lot.

695 00:56:20,505.0730059 --> 00:56:22,905.0730059 I only did like five when I was a kid and I turned out okay.

696 00:56:22,905.0730059 --> 00:56:25,635.0730059 Like, is that okay?

That's not an unreasonable question.

697 00:56:25,635.0730059 --> 00:56:31,905.0730059 When you're like, wait, wait, what?

Like do you want to give my kid four vaccines today?

Is that okay?

You know, and then you're like, oh yeah, yeah, it's safe.

698 00:56:31,905.0730059 --> 00:56:32,205.0730059 It's safe.

699 00:56:32,205.0730059 --> 00:56:32,655.0730059 Don't worry.

700 00:56:32,655.0730059 --> 00:56:33,915.0730059 It doesn't cause any problems.

701 00:56:33,915.0730059 --> 00:56:36,825.0730059 You're like, are you sure it doesn't cause any problems?

'cause you said that about a COVID vaccine.

702 00:56:36,825.0730059 --> 00:56:40,185.0730059 And then, uh, you know, my friend got my myocarditis and my other friend died.

703 00:56:40,365.0730059 --> 00:56:42,325.0730059 So it's like, I don't know.

704 00:56:42,325.0730059 --> 00:56:45,625.0730059 I just, I'm just not sure that I trust you when you say that it doesn't cause an issue.

705 00:56:45,625.0730059 --> 00:56:46,255.0730059 Like, prove it to me.

706 00:56:46,735.0730059 --> 00:56:48,805.0730059 Uh, and I don't think that they have that proof.

707 00:56:48,955.0730059 --> 00:56:49,405.0730059 Not really.

708 00:56:50,830.0730059 --> 00:56:51,400.0730059 Yeah.

709 00:56:51,400.0730059 --> 00:57:05,710.0730059 And you know, one of the best questions I equip my clients with, or anyone really who comes to me with, with vaccine questions is ask your pediatrician if they have read the insert of what they are recommending.

710 00:57:06,10.0730059 --> 00:57:09,550.0730059 Um, now of course you're at the mercy of that provider to tell you the truth.

711 00:57:09,550.0730059 --> 00:57:11,470.0730059 You would hope that they are gonna be honest with you.

712 00:57:11,470.0730059 --> 00:57:15,940.0730059 And if they are, most of them say, no, I haven't.

713 00:57:15,970.0730059 --> 00:57:33,880.0730059 Um, and I think that is enough reason to have pause in their recommendation in and of itself is that you're recommending something nearly blindly to me because you've been recommended to give it, but you haven't gone to the lengths to actually read the inserts.

714 00:57:33,880.0730059 --> 00:57:45,555.0730059 Which leads me to my next question of herd immunity and the fact that one of the biggest questions that came from the series was you've got people on both sides of this camp.

715 00:57:46,735.0730059 --> 00:57:57,115.0730059 People who say, I would never want to be seen by a pediatrician who allowed unvaccinated or delayed vaccine schedule people in their practice because you're putting my child at risk.

716 00:57:57,175.0730059 --> 00:58:20,905.0730059 And then on the opposite end of that spectrum, you have parents who say, well, if your vaccines work, why does my child need to be vaccinated?

And then Katie, the pa, who was part of that series, she talks about on her Instagram that when you actually do dive into the inserts, many of them state that we're unsure actually how long immunity lasts.

717 00:58:20,965.0730059 --> 00:58:25,375.0730059 And we're unsure exactly when do we reach herd immunity.

718 00:58:25,375.0730059 --> 00:58:29,95.0730059 So both of those things are more like an estimate or a guess.

719 00:58:29,575.0730059 --> 00:58:33,385.0730059 Tell us what is on your mind about those two things.

720 00:58:33,385.0730059 --> 00:58:57,535.0730059 Herd immunity versus like if your vaccines work, why does my child need to be vaccinated?

How do we actually achieve herd immunity if we don't really know the hard numbers?

Yeah, it, it, it's a great question and I think one of the most important ethical debates when it comes to vaccine that we never have a debate on because it's so nuanced and it's so complicated and it's not clear cut and there is no exact answer.

721 00:58:57,535.0730059 --> 00:59:02,545.0730059 And, and you know, in my, in the book, like I, I spent a whole section on this because I think it was so important.

722 00:59:02,650.0730059 --> 00:59:06,100.0730059 And ultimately, the conclusions are, it's really nuance.

723 00:59:06,105.0730059 --> 00:59:18,800.0730059 And, and I, and I think we should get into it 'cause it's super, super interesting topic that people wanna make it so simple and it's extraordinarily complicated because first of all, most vaccines or many vaccines don't have anything to do with her immunity.

724 00:59:19,130.0730059 --> 00:59:20,540.0730059 So they only protect you.

725 00:59:20,570.0730059 --> 00:59:21,800.0730059 The research is very clear.

726 00:59:21,800.0730059 --> 00:59:24,80.0730059 It's for your protection and not for somebody else.

727 00:59:24,80.0730059 --> 00:59:26,180.0730059 They, it doesn't stop it because you can still pass it along.

728 00:59:26,180.0730059 --> 00:59:29,720.0730059 So things like the polio vaccine, it just protects you, doesn't protect other people.

729 00:59:29,720.0730059 --> 00:59:31,940.0730059 If you have the oral polio, it does protect other people.

730 00:59:31,940.0730059 --> 00:59:35,220.0730059 But we stopped doing the oral polio vaccine, so it just protects you.

731 00:59:35,730.0730059 --> 00:59:38,170.0730059 Some of the respiratory diseases like say whooping cough.

732 00:59:38,740.0730059 --> 00:59:42,970.0730059 You might get some protection in terms of your symptoms, but you can still carry, you can still pass it on.

733 00:59:42,970.0730059 --> 00:59:44,800.0730059 We saw that with COVID, right?

It's very similar.

734 00:59:44,800.0730059 --> 00:59:55,570.0730059 I think it's more in people's minds now, so maybe they understand it a little bit more, but I don't think we really recognized it, and I certainly didn't learn about this, but you would think like, oh, you're, you're protecting for, whoop, everyone's gotta get protection for whooping cough.

735 00:59:55,570.0730059 --> 00:59:56,140.0730059 Protect the baby.

736 00:59:56,140.0730059 --> 00:59:59,410.0730059 But the reality is the research actually shows that it doesn't protect other people.

737 00:59:59,410.0730059 --> 01:00:00,70.0730059 Not really.

738 01:00:00,470.0730059 --> 01:00:03,800.0730059 And it actually, you carry it in your nose and you can still pass it along.

739 01:00:03,800.0730059 --> 01:00:12,740.0730059 So there are, there's hypothetical for even something like whooping cough where you don't know you have whooping cough, so you're not gonna keep yourself away from other people and you actually still carry it.

740 01:00:12,980.0730059 --> 01:00:16,130.0730059 And maybe you're more likely to give it to other people because you didn't even know.

741 01:00:16,130.0730059 --> 01:00:18,470.0730059 And if you were coughing really badly, you would, you would stay away.

742 01:00:18,470.0730059 --> 01:00:19,520.0730059 So that's, you know, one theory.

743 01:00:19,520.0730059 --> 01:00:24,20.0730059 The other theory is you're not coughing as much as you can pass it on, but either way you can still pass it.

744 01:00:24,410.0730059 --> 01:00:27,500.0730059 So just because you get a whooping cough vaccine doesn't mean you protect other people.

745 01:00:28,190.0730059 --> 01:00:30,20.0730059 And I think people need to under understand that.

746 01:00:30,50.0730059 --> 01:00:34,10.0730059 Whereas measles if you get a measles vaccine, it works very well.

747 01:00:34,515.0730059 --> 01:00:38,445.0730059 And you very likely won't get measles and you will protect other people.

748 01:00:39,315.0730059 --> 01:00:41,505.0730059 Oh, you're not, you're never get to the point where you get contagious.

749 01:00:41,505.0730059 --> 01:00:43,665.0730059 So you don't f And that's why where herd immunity comes in.

750 01:00:43,665.0730059 --> 01:00:45,855.0730059 'cause for something like measles is pretty well studied.

751 01:00:45,855.0730059 --> 01:00:50,205.0730059 About 95% of people get a vaccine, then there's nowhere for that disease to go.

752 01:00:50,535.0730059 --> 01:00:52,125.0730059 So it, it can't be passed to other people.

753 01:00:52,125.0730059 --> 01:00:53,625.0730059 So that's where herd immunity comes from.

754 01:00:53,625.0730059 --> 01:00:55,935.0730059 And it is a real concept and it really does happen.

755 01:00:55,935.0730059 --> 01:01:00,305.0730059 And you see that, I mean the, the best example I can give is chickenpox.

756 01:01:00,545.0730059 --> 01:01:04,565.0730059 Right?

I think that's the easiest one for people to think about because it, it occurred in our lifetime.

757 01:01:04,565.0730059 --> 01:01:11,255.0730059 Like, you know, there's always this debate about like, oh, was it all sanitation?

Was it all vaccines?

And it's like, no, no, it was both right?

It was both.

758 01:01:11,565.0730059 --> 01:01:16,745.0730059 All the all of the infections basically were, were plummeting down before vaccines hit the market.

759 01:01:16,745.0730059 --> 01:01:19,865.0730059 And mortality was basically at zero before vaccines hit the market.

760 01:01:19,895.0730059 --> 01:01:21,125.0730059 So that's true.

761 01:01:21,365.0730059 --> 01:01:33,590.0730059 A lot of other factors went into play in terms of nutrition and sanitation, but there were still lots of diseases 50 years ago, right?

There were still lots of measles and lots of chicken pox and lots of Haemophilus before vaccines hit the market.

762 01:01:33,590.0730059 --> 01:01:36,200.0730059 And then you saw those diseases plummet down to almost nothing.

763 01:01:36,200.0730059 --> 01:01:43,220.0730059 When we were growing up, everybody had chicken pox, right?

But we had good sanitation and we had antibiotic, all the things, you know, 20 years ago, right?

Or 30 years ago.

764 01:01:43,460.0730059 --> 01:01:44,870.0730059 But now you don't see chicken pox anymore.

765 01:01:45,170.0730059 --> 01:01:52,880.0730059 Why is that?

Because you have herd immunity now because people got a vaccine and they're protected, so you don't see it getting passed around 'cause nobody has the ability to even get it anymore.

766 01:01:52,880.0730059 --> 01:01:56,510.0730059 Now there's a lot of discussion, debate over good, bad, whatever, with chicken pox won't go there.

767 01:01:56,510.0730059 --> 01:01:58,130.0730059 But in terms of herd immunity.

768 01:01:59,225.0730059 --> 01:02:01,115.0730059 There is herd immunity from, from chicken pox.

769 01:02:01,175.0730059 --> 01:02:04,545.0730059 So do you need chickenpox vaccine?

I dunno, most kids do fine.

770 01:02:04,545.0730059 --> 01:02:09,315.0730059 But on the grand scale of the millions of kids that get it, do a couple of kids get really sick?

Yes.

771 01:02:09,345.0730059 --> 01:02:13,905.0730059 So that's the argument for herd immunity for the kid that couldn't get a vaccine, that the vaccine didn't work.

772 01:02:13,905.0730059 --> 01:02:16,125.0730059 That's immunocompromised, that's a newborn baby.

773 01:02:16,425.0730059 --> 01:02:21,525.0730059 For the one kid that gets meningitis or a bad pneumonia and gets really sick, like it's not super common.

774 01:02:21,525.0730059 --> 01:02:23,565.0730059 That will happen, but it, it could happen.

775 01:02:23,565.0730059 --> 01:02:25,125.0730059 So you are protecting the community.

776 01:02:25,575.0730059 --> 01:02:28,215.0730059 Uh, you are decreasing the amount of illness, the amount of sick days.

777 01:02:28,215.0730059 --> 01:02:30,255.0730059 So there are reasons why, it's, why it's positive.

778 01:02:30,255.0730059 --> 01:02:32,265.0730059 And then the debate is whether you should or shouldn't do it.

779 01:02:32,665.0730059 --> 01:02:37,435.0730059 And whether you should be forced to, but, but there is a, a positive reason to have herd immunity.

780 01:02:37,645.0730059 --> 01:02:41,935.0730059 But the question then of ethics is, should you or do you need to?

Right.

781 01:02:41,935.0730059 --> 01:02:45,115.0730059 And I, and I think that people think that's so simple, like, yeah, you should protect everybody.

782 01:02:45,535.0730059 --> 01:02:46,615.0730059 You don't want anybody to get sick.

783 01:02:46,615.0730059 --> 01:02:48,655.0730059 And obviously they don't want anybody to get measles and die.

784 01:02:48,765.0730059 --> 01:02:52,545.0730059 But that still doesn't mean that people should be forced to do something.

785 01:02:52,545.0730059 --> 01:02:52,635.0730059 Right.

786 01:02:52,695.0730059 --> 01:02:55,755.0730059 'cause everybody's line of where.

787 01:02:56,490.0730059 --> 01:02:57,990.0730059 That is, is different.

788 01:02:57,990.0730059 --> 01:03:00,705.0730059 And, and, and you have to think about along that continuum.

789 01:03:00,705.0730059 --> 01:03:03,795.0730059 Like, okay, one vaccine you're being forced to get.

790 01:03:03,825.0730059 --> 01:03:04,815.0730059 Oh, okay, it's one vaccine.

791 01:03:04,815.0730059 --> 01:03:18,285.0730059 What about if you're forced to get 30 or 50 or a hundred or in the future forced to get a thousand vaccines to protect everybody else?

Where is that line?

What about if you are forced to give a kidney because there's some other kid that needs a kidney and they're gonna die.

792 01:03:18,285.0730059 --> 01:03:25,245.0730059 So you're protecting the community, you're giving, you're giving herd, kidneys, but you know, most people wouldn't necessarily give up their kidney to some random stranger.

793 01:03:25,245.0730059 --> 01:03:30,825.0730059 Or what if you have to hook up your brain to, to protect everybody in the future?

Like these are things that are possible, obviously much more than a vaccine.

794 01:03:31,335.0730059 --> 01:03:34,5.0730059 It's hyperbolic, but the point is there's a different line.

795 01:03:34,245.0730059 --> 01:04:10,80.0730059 And so when you're saying you need to protect other people, the question is, okay, well where is the line that I feel is acceptable that I should do something to protect somebody else?

Because I personally might feel like these vaccines or this vaccine is a risk for my child and shouldn't I be able to prioritize my child over somebody else?

And everyone has a different line there, but maybe your kid is the very sensitive kid who, oh, I don't know, maybe got their vaccines at two months and had serious reaction to it that you believe, and now they're a year old and you're like, ah, I don't really know if I wanna give them the MMR because they're so, you know, they're, they're so fragile, they had such a bad reaction.

796 01:04:10,80.0730059 --> 01:04:12,360.0730059 Like, I feel like the risk is really high for my kid.

797 01:04:12,610.0730059 --> 01:04:16,270.0730059 I didn't think I'm gonna do MMR when they're five because I just, I don't wanna do any more vaccines.

798 01:04:16,270.0730059 --> 01:04:18,880.0730059 'cause I'm really worried and I feel in my heart that it's gonna cause a problem.

799 01:04:19,570.0730059 --> 01:04:35,150.0730059 Who's protecting that kid?

Like, like, and so should that kid be forced to do it, even though there's a serious potential risk for that kid who's already had a reaction, like that kid is contributing to herd immunity or not contributing to it, but you're, you're, you know, you're, you're saying they should be forced to do it because they're gonna protect somebody else.

800 01:04:35,150.0730059 --> 01:04:38,330.0730059 So it's, it's complicated because every situation is different.

801 01:04:38,330.0730059 --> 01:04:43,10.0730059 And that's why I think it has to come back to individual choice ultimately, and not force.

802 01:04:43,290.0730059 --> 01:04:48,930.0730059 But on the flip side, like we do wanna protect other people and we do have laws to protect other people like seat belts and other things.

803 01:04:49,305.0730059 --> 01:04:54,75.0730059 So it, it is, you know, it's complicated and it's nuanced and it's not so simple.

804 01:04:54,75.0730059 --> 01:04:59,595.0730059 And when people try to simplify it down to, oh, you're just trying to kill Johnny, but you don't care about everybody else, it's like, well, no, I don't know.

805 01:04:59,595.0730059 --> 01:05:02,115.0730059 I like, that's not exactly what a lot of parents are thinking.

806 01:05:02,115.0730059 --> 01:05:07,875.0730059 They're thinking, I am weighing the risks of the benefits and I feel like the risks outweigh the benefits for my kid at this time.

807 01:05:07,875.0730059 --> 01:05:10,65.0730059 So I'm choosing to do something else.

808 01:05:10,615.0730059 --> 01:05:12,595.0730059 And I, I think that's not always unreasonable.

809 01:05:12,595.0730059 --> 01:05:14,125.0730059 And they're not just evil people doing that.

810 01:05:14,125.0730059 --> 01:05:20,965.0730059 I've met lots of people that want to slow schedules that are really educated and, you know, have looked into it and they just don't feel like it's a good choice for them.

811 01:05:20,965.0730059 --> 01:05:26,815.0730059 And, and I don't know that I should be able to tell you that you're right or wrong or that you're evil for making that choice.

812 01:05:27,325.0730059 --> 01:05:27,715.0730059 I don't know.

813 01:05:27,715.0730059 --> 01:05:32,425.0730059 I think again, it's like, it's complicated and, and anybody that wants to simplify it to like just, oh, herd immunity.

814 01:05:32,425.0730059 --> 01:05:34,555.0730059 Well first of all, most of the vaccines don't cause herd immunity.

815 01:05:34,555.0730059 --> 01:05:37,765.0730059 And then second of all, for the ones that do, it's still complicated, I think.

816 01:05:38,335.0730059 --> 01:05:40,195.0730059 Yeah, that is so interesting.

817 01:05:40,195.0730059 --> 01:05:42,25.0730059 I didn't know that about the herd immunity.

818 01:05:42,25.0730059 --> 01:05:46,75.0730059 Um, and I guess it does actually give a little bit more validity to like.

819 01:05:46,645.0730059 --> 01:06:01,915.0730059 The idea of, well, if this vaccine is only really protecting you, then what?

Does it matter if I get vaccinated or not?

Because if you've gotten vaccinated, then you, you should be protected as much as the vaccine is going to provide for you.

820 01:06:01,915.0730059 --> 01:06:07,195.0730059 And I'm taken on the risk of, you know, quote unquote risk of not being vaccinated.

821 01:13:14,664.9372508 --> 01:13:52,764.9372508 It's just, this is so, it's so deep, and I think this is why a lot of people actually shy away from this conversation is because they don't wanna get into these deep conversations and they don't wanna take the time to actually do the research, and they don't wanna be uncomfortable, right?

Like a lot of people don't want to sit in the discomfort of maybe having to admit that they were wrong or that they had an idea in their head that didn't end up being true, or that they've been spouting out stuff that isn't true because they didn't actually read the inserts and they don't truly know what the manufacturers say.

822 01:13:53,319.9372508 --> 01:13:53,439.9372508 Yeah.

823 01:13:53,494.9372508 --> 01:14:06,669.9372508 And, and it's also, I mean, it's an extraordinarily complicated topic because as soon as you start to get into the weeds and start to have questions, then if you're a parent and you gave your kid vaccines, you're like, oh wait, what risk did I mess up?

Yeah.

824 01:14:06,669.9372508 --> 01:14:17,169.9372508 Did I do that?

Did I cause the autism?

Did I cause the chronic condition?

You start to worry about that, and I think that's a really important, so it is easier just not to talk about if you're a doctor, you're giving vaccines, you don't wanna think that you're creating issues.

825 01:14:17,379.9372508 --> 01:14:22,749.9372508 So you wanna know that like what you've done for your career and what you believe in is not creating problems.

826 01:14:22,749.9372508 --> 01:14:24,249.9372508 So I, I think that's uncomfortable.

827 01:14:24,404.9372507 --> 01:14:28,304.9372507 I think there's just, there's so much discomfort in this discussion.

828 01:14:28,304.9372507 --> 01:14:33,614.9372507 And then let's just say we get all the research that we, we want and it does show that vaccines cause a problem.

829 01:14:33,794.9372508 --> 01:14:34,4.9372507 Okay.

830 01:14:34,4.9372507 --> 01:14:36,884.9372507 Then what?

Then people stop vaccinating and then all these diseases come back.

831 01:14:37,64.9372507 --> 01:14:39,734.9372507 Like, that's also uncomfortable because like that's, that would happen.

832 01:14:39,734.9372507 --> 01:14:44,804.9372507 Like, I, I, I would think that, I think some of the diseases wouldn't, wouldn't be so bad and some of them wouldn't come back that much.

833 01:14:44,804.9372507 --> 01:14:52,859.9372507 And I, I think we have precedent for that where there's a lot of diseases, which we don't have vaccines for that like tuberculosis, you know, you don't vaccinate in general, but most people don't get it.

834 01:14:52,859.9372507 --> 01:14:59,929.9372507 So I think a lot of them would still be not around that much, but like something like measles yeah, that would probably, if everyone just stopped vaccinated, they'd probably come back like crazy.

835 01:15:00,239.9372507 --> 01:15:01,349.9372507 And, and most people would get it.

836 01:15:01,349.9372507 --> 01:15:27,384.9372507 And then, you know, your question is, well, how severe would that be?

And, and, and is that worse than, than, than everybody being vaccinated in the complications of the vaccine?

So it is nuanced, but it's uncomfortable to think if vaccines are bad and cause problems then what happens to all those diseases?

And if vaccines do cause those problems, then, then did we do that?

Like, should we do that?

But I think the answer to that is the science and honesty And research and, and nothing is truly bad or good.

837 01:15:27,384.9372507 --> 01:15:29,784.9372507 There's no like anti-vax or provax, it's all ridiculous.

838 01:15:29,784.9372507 --> 01:15:35,634.9372507 It's there, they're just people with concerns and different people with different levels of, of understanding of different things.

839 01:15:35,634.9372507 --> 01:15:36,444.9372507 And ultimately.

840 01:15:37,14.9372507 --> 01:15:43,494.9372507 The goal should be to have healthy kids, at least for me personally, like I don't care if kids in the future get a thousand vaccines or zero, as long as they're the healthiest.

841 01:15:43,494.9372507 --> 01:15:48,894.9372507 And I've said that if it ultimately comes out and we do all the best research and vaccines, cause no problems at all.

842 01:15:48,894.9372507 --> 01:15:50,724.9372507 I'm very happy to give 10,000 vaccines.

843 01:15:50,724.9372507 --> 01:15:51,174.9372507 That's fine.

844 01:15:51,534.9372507 --> 01:15:54,864.9372507 You know?

But if that causes more problems than good, then I'd rather have zero vaccines.

845 01:15:54,864.9372507 --> 01:15:56,784.9372507 Like, I don't know, I don't care what the answer is.

846 01:15:56,784.9372507 --> 01:15:58,434.9372507 I just want kids to be healthy.

847 01:15:58,434.9372507 --> 01:16:11,64.9372507 And I think if we had that mentality with science and we were open to that vaccines having problems sometimes or causing issues sometimes, and more than we, we kind of say that they do, then we could probably make them better and probably make them safer.

848 01:16:11,64.9372507 --> 01:16:14,994.9372507 But I, I just, I don't feel like we're having those discussions in general.

849 01:16:14,994.9372507 --> 01:16:21,84.9372507 And I, I don't think that a lot of parents feel like medicine and doctors care about vaccine safety.

850 01:16:21,384.9372507 --> 01:16:25,494.9372507 They care about protecting you from diseases and they don't want your kid to get hepatitis B.

851 01:16:25,644.9372507 --> 01:16:28,524.9372507 They don't want your kid to get to die of vitamin K deficient bleeding.

852 01:16:28,524.9372507 --> 01:16:32,604.9372507 They don't want your kid to, you know, get pneumococcus opus.

853 01:16:32,694.9372507 --> 01:16:40,89.9372507 Of course they don't, but they don't really seem to care or care to discuss the safety and the possible complications.

854 01:16:40,119.9372507 --> 01:16:41,259.9372507 And instead it's, well, they're safe.

855 01:16:41,259.9372507 --> 01:16:43,149.9372507 They don't cause problems, eh, they never really happens.

856 01:16:43,549.9372507 --> 01:16:53,989.9372507 And that is pushing parents away who I think want to feel at least, like people have heard that there could be a problem and are researching it to try to make it safer.

857 01:16:54,19.9372507 --> 01:17:00,619.9372507 Nobody, I think, thinks that like vaccines are never gonna cause a problem or gonna be a hundred percent safe or never cause an issue.

858 01:17:00,619.9372507 --> 01:17:08,599.9372507 I don't think that's realistic for any medicine, but I do think that parents want to feel like we're moving in a better direction.

859 01:17:08,599.9372507 --> 01:17:10,339.9372507 We understand that they could cause issues.

860 01:17:10,579.9372507 --> 01:17:11,809.9372507 We're trying to make them safer.

861 01:17:11,809.9372507 --> 01:17:16,9.9372507 We're always gonna make them better, and we understand that they could cause complications sometimes.

862 01:17:16,759.9372507 --> 01:17:19,939.9372507 I think if that happened, most people would have a lot more trust in medicine.

863 01:17:20,389.9372507 --> 01:17:23,149.9372507 Uh, and I don't think that's anti-science or woo woo or anything.

864 01:17:23,149.9372507 --> 01:17:27,469.9372507 I, I just think that people don't feel like doctors care about vaccine safety.

865 01:17:27,469.9372507 --> 01:17:28,9.9372507 They care about.

866 01:17:28,969.9372507 --> 01:17:30,289.9372507 Disease prevention, I guess.

867 01:17:30,529.9372507 --> 01:17:30,769.9372507 Mm-hmm.

868 01:17:30,775.9372507 --> 01:17:32,419.9372507 And you can care about both things.

869 01:17:32,554.9372507 --> 01:17:39,109.9372507 I just, I think you can care about both and you don't have to, uh, want a kid to get measles to also want the measles vaccine to be as safe as possible.

870 01:17:39,159.9372507 --> 01:17:40,539.9372507 And, and both things could be true.

871 01:17:40,539.9372507 --> 01:17:45,219.9372507 So I think if, if the discussion kinda shifted in that direction, uh, we'd be in a better place.

872 01:17:45,999.9372507 --> 01:17:50,409.9372507 I think it's hard too, because when you look at kids these days, we are sicker.

873 01:17:50,529.9372507 --> 01:17:59,679.9372507 I mean, as a whole, society we're sicker than we were 10 years ago, which was sicker than we were 20 years ago, which was sicker 30 years ago.

874 01:17:59,789.9372507 --> 01:18:02,399.9372507 We, we continue to get sicker and sicker and sicker.

875 01:18:02,399.9372507 --> 01:18:06,179.9372507 Yet we claim that medicine is being more and more advanced.

876 01:18:06,179.9372507 --> 01:18:08,99.9372507 And I think in some regards.

877 01:18:08,984.9372507 --> 01:18:16,814.9372507 It is, right?

Like in cardiology, we're able to save people who 10 years ago would've died from cardiac complications.

878 01:18:16,994.9372507 --> 01:18:22,154.9372507 But when it comes to childhood disease, it's only increasing.

879 01:18:22,154.9372507 --> 01:18:30,434.9372507 And so I think parents are super valid in asking these questions and saying, why is this?

And I don't think that it's just vaccines.

880 01:18:30,434.9372507 --> 01:18:32,834.9372507 I don't actually think anybody thinks it's just vaccines.

881 01:18:32,834.9372507 --> 01:18:34,4.9372507 It's in our water sources.

882 01:18:34,4.9372507 --> 01:18:37,454.9372507 It's in our food, it's in our insecticides and pesticides.

883 01:18:37,454.9372507 --> 01:18:42,284.9372507 It's in screen time, it's in, you know, lunchroom foods at school.

884 01:18:42,284.9372507 --> 01:18:44,54.9372507 It, it's in all of it.

885 01:18:44,54.9372507 --> 01:18:48,794.9372507 I really do get, I understand that, but to say to parents, well, this is safe.

886 01:18:48,794.9372507 --> 01:18:49,784.9372507 We've always done it.

887 01:18:49,784.9372507 --> 01:18:56,294.9372507 It's like, yeah, and look at the outcomes of having all of this be put on our children.

888 01:18:56,474.9372507 --> 01:18:57,734.9372507 It's really valid.

889 01:18:57,734.9372507 --> 01:19:03,764.9372507 I also think that one of the best places we could start, boy, I hope it don't get canceled for this.

890 01:19:03,884.9372507 --> 01:19:05,834.9372507 I hope this doesn't get taken down for this, but.

891 01:19:06,434.9372507 --> 01:19:18,464.9372507 I don't know that we ever are gonna have footing if we don't remove immunity from the manufacturers until they are able to be held accountable for injuries caused from their products.

892 01:19:18,914.9372507 --> 01:19:30,554.9372507 It is almost null and void this entire discussion because what incentive do they have to make a better vaccine?

What do they care?

They can injure as many people as they want and you essentially can't prove it.

893 01:19:30,554.9372507 --> 01:19:33,644.9372507 And even if you can, so what?

You can't sue us.

894 01:19:34,754.9372507 --> 01:19:35,54.9372507 Yeah.

895 01:19:35,54.9372507 --> 01:19:35,954.9372507 I mean, we said a lot there.

896 01:19:35,954.9372507 --> 01:19:43,764.9372507 So, lemme come back to the immunity part 'cause that's super important, but even before that, so the reality is we have more chronic disease than we had before.

897 01:19:43,794.9372507 --> 01:19:47,244.9372507 A lot more, we have like 50% of kids have a chronic disease, 75% of adults.

898 01:19:47,244.9372507 --> 01:19:49,164.9372507 It's insane numbers and it shouldn't be that way.

899 01:19:49,164.9372507 --> 01:19:51,84.9372507 And it wasn't that way just a few decades ago.

900 01:19:51,804.9372507 --> 01:19:53,814.9372507 Medicine needs some humility to look at that.

901 01:19:53,914.9372507 --> 01:19:54,244.9372507 Yeah.

902 01:19:54,514.9372507 --> 01:19:56,944.9372507 You, you just hear, oh yeah, well people used to die at 40.

903 01:19:56,944.9372507 --> 01:19:57,604.9372507 Okay, that's true.

904 01:19:57,604.9372507 --> 01:20:00,694.9372507 Like there's a lot that we've done good in modern medicine.

905 01:20:00,694.9372507 --> 01:20:05,134.9372507 We're great at emergency care and, and, and birth and, and many things that we, we, people used to die, that they don't die.

906 01:20:05,134.9372507 --> 01:20:15,34.9372507 So there's a lot that's good, but also life expectancy started going back down for the first time ever, and Crohn's is skyrocketing and so I think we need to have a little bit of humility to say, look.

907 01:20:15,694.9372507 --> 01:20:18,874.9372507 There's a lot that we've done really well in medicine and we can save your life.

908 01:20:19,84.9372507 --> 01:20:28,384.9372507 We have antibiotics and a lot of great things, but also there's a bunch of things that we're clearly not doing that well and we're not doing as well as we did a hundred years ago or 50 years ago.

909 01:20:28,384.9372507 --> 01:20:31,714.9372507 And that is why chronic disease is skyrocketing and that's why life expect is going back down.

910 01:20:31,954.9372507 --> 01:20:33,514.9372507 So let's be humble.

911 01:20:33,664.9372507 --> 01:20:35,734.9372507 Let's look at what's changed over the last a hundred years.

912 01:20:35,764.9372507 --> 01:20:37,504.9372507 Everything, not just vaccines, all the things.

913 01:20:37,864.9372507 --> 01:20:38,794.9372507 And let's see.

914 01:20:39,289.9372507 --> 01:20:43,969.9372507 Maybe we could decrease our death from infectious disease, but also minimize chronic disease.

915 01:20:43,969.9372507 --> 01:20:50,539.9372507 And let's start, see life expectancy go up and maybe people can be living more healthy till 90 or a hundred or 110 or whatever it is.

916 01:20:50,849.9372507 --> 01:20:59,919.9372507 And so I think both things can be true, but clearly what we're doing as a society, is not very good for chronic disease and for living healthy.

917 01:21:00,109.9372507 --> 01:21:02,239.9372507 We are living longer than a hundred years ago.

918 01:21:02,429.9372507 --> 01:21:05,69.9372507 But we're not living necessarily longer than 20 years ago.

919 01:21:05,234.9372507 --> 01:21:05,314.9372507 Hmm.

920 01:21:05,419.9372507 --> 01:21:08,879.9372507 I think that's something that just needs to be taken into account to be humble.

921 01:21:08,879.9372507 --> 01:21:10,49.9372507 And that includes vaccines.

922 01:21:10,49.9372507 --> 01:21:11,159.9372507 'cause we're doing a lot more vaccines.

923 01:21:11,159.9372507 --> 01:21:13,949.9372507 And vaccines actually stimulate your immune system which is what they're supposed to do.

924 01:21:13,949.9372507 --> 01:21:17,279.9372507 So to assume that they can never cause a problem to your immune system doesn't make any sense to me.

925 01:21:17,279.9372507 --> 01:21:20,39.9372507 I would think it could and should do that sometimes.

926 01:21:20,349.9372507 --> 01:21:28,39.9372507 And, and we should just be figuring out why it happens, who it happens to, what are the genetics, where are the environment, what's the load?

You know, I think that, like you said.

927 01:21:28,719.9372507 --> 01:21:29,569.9372507 It's many, many things.

928 01:21:29,569.9372507 --> 01:21:33,414.9372507 I've seen kids with autism and never had a vaccine, so obviously that's not the only thing doing it.

929 01:21:33,414.9372507 --> 01:21:37,104.9372507 Or any sorts of asthma, allergies, all sorts of stuff that they never had a vaccine.

930 01:21:37,104.9372507 --> 01:21:47,374.9372507 So of course it's not the only thing but it's one thing that we're doing that's stimulating your immune system and maybe in a certain setup for certain kids, it pushes 'em over the edge or you start to see it after you get, or whatever it is.

931 01:21:48,94.9372507 --> 01:21:51,154.9372507 So I, I think that it should be included in the, the discussion.

932 01:21:51,584.9372507 --> 01:21:53,444.9372507 So that's kind of point 1, point 2, about immunity.

933 01:21:53,859.9372507 --> 01:21:55,184.9372507 I, I think that's just a big deal.

934 01:21:55,184.9372507 --> 01:21:59,144.9372507 I mean, I, I think that there's nothing else in America or really anywhere that has immunity like that.

935 01:21:59,624.9372507 --> 01:22:04,34.9372507 And, what has come of that is there's no reason for them to study things to find for safety.

936 01:22:04,34.9372507 --> 01:22:05,534.9372507 It's really about getting it on the market.

937 01:22:05,534.9372507 --> 01:22:13,304.9372508 So they do whatever they can to show benefit without necessarily having to really study things in the best way for safety, like they do for most medications.

938 01:22:13,304.9372508 --> 01:22:18,674.9372507 Most medications they study for a long time because if it causes a problem after five years, they're gonna get sued up to wazoo.

939 01:22:19,4.9372507 --> 01:22:20,684.9372507 In fact, they don't have to worry about that.

940 01:22:20,684.9372507 --> 01:22:23,834.9372507 So they study it for a year or two or six months and they say, oh yeah, it's safe.

941 01:22:23,834.9372507 --> 01:22:30,614.9372507 And then, you know, any longer term problems, you're like, well, it's on the market, so whatever, we can't have you sue, it too bad, and who's studying it anyways, so that, that is how they're doing.

942 01:22:30,614.9372507 --> 01:22:32,474.9372507 It's not nefarious, it's just how it is.

943 01:22:33,584.9372507 --> 01:22:43,34.9372507 Um, but I think that we need very in-depth discussions about what we would do about immunity.

944 01:22:43,34.9372507 --> 01:22:53,474.9372507 I, I think, you know, the first step should certainly be easier than taking away immunity, which is they should have you know, somebody actually checking up and doing their own studies and looking at safety and not trusting what they're doing.

945 01:22:53,474.9372507 --> 01:23:02,849.9372507 So I, I think you don't have to take away immunity to have the CDC or the NIH study vaccines and study vaccine safety and say that what they are actually doing is actually what we see in real life.

946 01:23:02,849.9372507 --> 01:23:04,49.9372507 Like we could certainly have that.

947 01:23:04,479.9372507 --> 01:23:09,249.9372507 And then you'd have to have a nuanced conversation about how you would potentially remove liability.

948 01:23:09,249.9372507 --> 01:23:16,989.9372507 Or maybe they have limited liability or I, I don't know what, but you couldn't, let's just imagine that you were like, oh, vaccines cause asthma, right?

Or, or autism or whatever.

949 01:23:17,139.9372507 --> 01:23:19,859.9372507 Like how could you just start suing these companies?

There'd be million, trillion.

950 01:23:19,889.9372507 --> 01:23:20,609.9372507 They don't have that much money.

951 01:23:20,609.9372507 --> 01:23:21,239.9372507 They'll go bankrupt.

952 01:23:21,239.9372507 --> 01:23:22,109.9372507 You'd have no vaccines.

953 01:23:22,199.9372507 --> 01:23:23,129.9372507 So, Hmm.

954 01:23:23,159.9372507 --> 01:23:28,79.9372507 Uh, and, and that's the other issue with right now, let, let's say that you were to prove that vaccines cause autism.

955 01:23:28,79.9372507 --> 01:23:29,849.9372507 Well, who do you sue?

Right now?

You sue the government.

956 01:23:30,209.9372507 --> 01:23:42,84.9372507 It's a fund that who, who would pay for all that?

If you were to say that something like that was caused by, we don't have all those trillions and hundreds of trillions of dollars for all those, but does big pharma not have that much money?

I mean, it, it goes not that much money.

957 01:23:42,689.9372507 --> 01:23:44,669.9372507 You don't imagine, imagine if, I don't think so.

958 01:23:44,669.9372507 --> 01:23:53,759.9372507 If every person who had autism sued for how many millions would you get for your kids?

D dying of something or having autism or asthma or allergies is so many kids around the world.

959 01:23:54,269.9372507 --> 01:23:56,529.9372507 If everyone got a million dollars or they wouldn't have that much money.

960 01:23:58,59.9372507 --> 01:24:00,309.9372507 They would just go out of business and they would stop, they would stop producing them.

961 01:24:03,159.9372507 --> 01:24:04,239.9372507 Oh, I struggle with this.

962 01:24:04,239.9372507 --> 01:24:06,279.9372507 Because it's kind of like, well, you did the damage.

963 01:24:06,339.9372507 --> 01:24:17,989.9372507 So I I I'm not saying it's wrong around, I'm, I'm just saying this is the complication because if you agree that it causes an issue, but you also agree that it has some benefit, then you also don't necessarily just want them to go outta business and nobody to make vaccines anymore.

964 01:24:18,379.9372507 --> 01:24:18,529.9372507 Okay.

965 01:24:18,564.9372507 --> 01:24:22,134.9372507 You, you I mean, I would want them to make the safest vaccines possible.

966 01:24:22,134.9372507 --> 01:24:25,554.9372507 I want them to be forced to make them good and better and protect us.

967 01:24:25,554.9372507 --> 01:24:25,614.9372507 Yeah.

968 01:24:25,714.9372507 --> 01:24:26,754.9372507 And not cause problems.

969 01:24:26,754.9372507 --> 01:24:35,544.9372507 So I, I think there's some middle ground there where maybe there's some limited liability you could have, maybe there's some, I don't even know an I don't even know that they should like not be liable for what's happened in the past.

970 01:24:35,544.9372507 --> 01:24:38,424.9372507 But I don't know that you can make them liable for something they didn't have liability for.

971 01:24:38,424.9372507 --> 01:24:41,454.9372507 So maybe it's like forward, they have liability now for new vac.

972 01:24:41,484.9372507 --> 01:24:41,844.9372507 I don't know.

973 01:24:42,24.9372507 --> 01:24:42,774.9372507 I don't know what the answer is.

974 01:24:42,774.9372507 --> 01:24:43,734.9372507 It's very complicated.

975 01:24:44,164.9372507 --> 01:24:48,49.9372507 But I think it's a big problem that they have no liability.

976 01:24:48,49.9372507 --> 01:24:51,109.9372507 And I think that that's what keeps the checks and balances in general.

977 01:24:51,709.9372507 --> 01:24:52,819.9372507 And we don't have that check.

978 01:24:52,819.9372507 --> 01:24:53,959.9372507 So there is no balance.

979 01:24:53,989.9372507 --> 01:24:57,919.9372508 And they just haven't, every incentive gets something on the market without any incentive to keep it safer.

980 01:24:58,349.9372508 --> 01:25:00,659.9372507 And there has to be some sort of check on that.

981 01:25:00,719.9372508 --> 01:25:03,89.9372508 And I, I, I just don't think most doctors would know that either.

982 01:25:03,89.9372508 --> 01:25:04,769.9372508 Like, I didn't know they have liability.

983 01:25:04,769.9372508 --> 01:25:11,19.9372508 Why would you know that?

And, and I think that's a, that's a big thing because then it explains why you study one vaccine versus another.

984 01:25:11,379.9372508 --> 01:25:18,849.9372508 Why you try to get something on the market and you're like, oh, well, you know, they, they, they, we can't study it one vaccine against nothing because then it's unethical.

985 01:25:18,849.9372508 --> 01:25:27,519.9372508 Well, what about the first time you study it?

Right?

Like they, like, I understand some of them were studied a long time ago, but like Pneumococcus was not that old and it was studied against Meningococcus.

986 01:25:27,519.9372508 --> 01:25:29,139.9372508 Like there was no pneumococcus on the market.

987 01:25:29,139.9372508 --> 01:25:38,679.9372508 They could have studied, or at least at a minimum, we could come up and say, look, the CDC, the NAH, the FDA, they're not approving any more new vaccines.

988 01:25:39,384.9372508 --> 01:25:40,674.9372508 There's no other vaccine on the market.

989 01:25:40,674.9372508 --> 01:25:41,124.9372508 Not not one.

990 01:25:41,124.9372508 --> 01:25:41,724.9372508 We already have that.

991 01:25:41,724.9372508 --> 01:25:42,924.9372508 We have a previous one, but something new.

992 01:25:42,924.9372508 --> 01:25:48,924.9372508 If we're gonna put a new vaccine on the market, like the first RSV vaccine or whatever, it has to have inert placebo controlled trials.

993 01:25:48,924.9372508 --> 01:25:50,334.9372508 We're not approving it unless you do that.

994 01:25:50,664.9372507 --> 01:25:54,84.9372508 That should be the bare minimum, because that should always be the bare minimum.

995 01:25:54,264.9372508 --> 01:25:57,264.9372508 We should study things for the best way possible for safety.

996 01:25:57,564.9372508 --> 01:26:02,874.9372508 And there's no ethics for a new product for safety testing to say that.

997 01:26:02,874.9372508 --> 01:26:06,114.9372508 There is ethics around, we're studying a new whooping cough vaccine.

998 01:26:06,114.9372508 --> 01:26:07,344.9372508 We have an old whooping cough vaccine.

999 01:26:08,244.9372508 --> 01:26:09,354.9372508 I understand those ethics.

1000 01:26:09,354.9372508 --> 01:26:13,914.9372507 I still think it's, it's very controversial because they didn't study all these things originally the way they should have.

1001 01:26:13,914.9372507 --> 01:26:18,174.9372508 So you, you're basically in this setup, which is like, all right, let's get the vaccine on the market.

1002 01:26:18,384.9372508 --> 01:26:19,704.9372507 We don't study the best possible way.

1003 01:26:19,704.9372507 --> 01:26:20,574.9372508 Now it's on the market.

1004 01:26:20,574.9372508 --> 01:26:21,654.9372508 We say that it's effective.

1005 01:26:21,804.9372508 --> 01:26:23,874.9372508 Well now we can never study it for safety because you can't do it.

1006 01:26:23,874.9372508 --> 01:26:25,74.9372508 So like there's that problem too.

1007 01:26:25,74.9372508 --> 01:26:29,274.9372508 But we can stop that problem moving forward at least by requiring it for anything new.

1008 01:26:29,274.9372508 --> 01:26:29,334.9372508 Hmm.

1009 01:26:30,354.9372508 --> 01:26:34,314.9372508 And then, you know, I don't, I don't know what the answer's gonna be for the old vaccines because.

1010 01:26:34,914.9372507 --> 01:26:37,314.9372508 It's really difficult to do that.

1011 01:26:37,314.9372508 --> 01:26:41,624.9372508 But I, I think the answer would ultimately be to do those prospective trials vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

1012 01:26:41,624.9372508 --> 01:26:42,434.9372507 Just see what we find.

1013 01:26:42,434.9372507 --> 01:26:48,164.9372507 And you're not gonna be able to do it individually, but at least you're gonna look at it globally and uh, I think that's gonna be as good as we're gonna get.

1014 01:26:48,854.9372507 --> 01:26:55,34.9372507 Now when you say inert placebo, you mean a vaccine versus a saline?

Correct.

1015 01:26:55,124.9372508 --> 01:26:55,844.9372507 So versus saline.

1016 01:26:55,844.9372507 --> 01:26:58,724.9372507 So most vaccines are studied against another vaccine.

1017 01:26:58,724.9372507 --> 01:26:59,414.9372507 That's just how it is.

1018 01:26:59,414.9372507 --> 01:27:00,974.9372507 They say placebo air quotes.

1019 01:27:01,344.9372507 --> 01:27:05,4.9372507 But that so that they can say, oh yeah, they're all placebo controlled trial, but they're really not.

1020 01:27:05,334.9372507 --> 01:27:05,844.9372507 They're really not.

1021 01:27:05,844.9372507 --> 01:27:10,884.9372507 You look at it and basically every vaccine on the schedule for kids is studied against other vaccines.

1022 01:27:10,884.9372507 --> 01:27:14,874.9372507 And that's how it was studied all the way back until the first trials, which generally were done a long time ago.

1023 01:27:14,874.9372507 --> 01:27:16,224.9372507 They don't do studies like they do today.

1024 01:27:16,584.9372507 --> 01:27:19,674.9372507 So you're like, oh yeah, let's study you against your brother and see how it goes.

1025 01:27:19,674.9372507 --> 01:27:20,754.9372507 And we're studying you for efficacy.

1026 01:27:20,754.9372507 --> 01:27:28,944.9372507 Like that's how the original like whooping cough vaccines were when you're talking about like twenties, thirties, forties, uh, you're not studying like they were today 'cause they didn't do research like today.

1027 01:27:29,184.9372507 --> 01:27:31,884.9372507 And then you take the DTP vaccine off.

1028 01:27:32,994.9372507 --> 01:27:38,274.9372507 Because you're concerned about risks of encephalitis and seizure, never proven but concerned.

1029 01:27:38,514.9372507 --> 01:27:40,704.9372507 And then you're studying the new whooping cough versus the old one.

1030 01:27:40,704.9372507 --> 01:27:43,434.9372507 And you're saying it's safe, but you're studying it only against the old one you took off.

1031 01:27:43,974.9372507 --> 01:27:50,214.9372508 So that's why it matters, because the question is, okay, but is it safe against nothing?

And now we can't study that.

1032 01:27:50,484.9372507 --> 01:27:57,894.9372507 And that's not to say, does the vaccine work efficacy?

We know we have a good understanding, but it's about safety and we don't have those.

1033 01:27:57,894.9372507 --> 01:27:59,844.9372507 And people say, oh no, we've done tons of, no, you have not.

1034 01:27:59,904.9372507 --> 01:28:02,124.9372508 They have not done a ton of inert placebo controlled trials.

1035 01:28:02,424.9372507 --> 01:28:03,684.9372507 I have looked at that long sheet.

1036 01:28:03,684.9372507 --> 01:28:06,894.9372507 I've been involved with HHS and other people who have talked about all those studies.

1037 01:28:07,404.9372507 --> 01:28:13,824.9372507 They're all, all the inner placebo trials basically are on other vaccines we don't use here for the regular schedule.

1038 01:28:13,824.9372507 --> 01:28:14,544.9372508 So they've done it.

1039 01:28:14,614.9372507 --> 01:28:16,774.9372507 There, there's one flu trial there.

1040 01:28:16,774.9372507 --> 01:28:18,424.9372507 They did some actually for COVID vaccines.

1041 01:28:18,424.9372507 --> 01:28:22,894.9372507 But, but basically any of the vaccines on our childhood schedule have not been in their placebo controlled trial ever.

1042 01:28:23,134.9372507 --> 01:28:23,824.9372507 That's just how it is.

1043 01:28:23,824.9372507 --> 01:28:24,784.9372507 That's just their reality.

1044 01:28:24,784.9372507 --> 01:28:28,324.9372507 And, and that can't be true moving forward like we.

1045 01:28:30,139.9372507 --> 01:28:33,379.9372507 We can't allow the research to be what it's like, look at the hepatitis B vaccine.

1046 01:28:33,949.9372507 --> 01:28:42,79.9372507 It's insanity, but on, in insert it says Hep B study for five days, four days with 147 people.

1047 01:28:42,79.9372507 --> 01:28:44,629.9372507 You're like, what?

That can't be true.

1048 01:28:44,749.9372507 --> 01:28:46,129.9372507 You're like, that cannot be true.

1049 01:28:46,129.9372507 --> 01:28:51,769.9372507 That cannot be the safety that we're basing this on, that that cannot be the safety that was agreed upon to give to kids.

1050 01:28:52,159.9372507 --> 01:28:52,849.9372507 But it is true.

1051 01:28:52,849.9372507 --> 01:28:53,719.9372507 It's right there.

1052 01:28:53,869.9372507 --> 01:28:57,619.9372507 And Aaron Siri sued the government foyer of them to get more information.

1053 01:28:57,619.9372507 --> 01:28:58,309.9372507 He said the same thing.

1054 01:28:58,309.9372507 --> 01:29:00,259.9372507 He was like, that can't possibly be true.

1055 01:29:00,919.9372507 --> 01:29:02,599.9372507 They didn't give him anything, anything else.

1056 01:29:02,599.9372507 --> 01:29:09,49.9372507 So unless there's some magical repository of, of, of safety data somewhere, that's what they base it upon.

1057 01:29:09,49.9372507 --> 01:29:12,499.9372507 That's what safety for giving a newborn a vaccine is.

1058 01:29:12,499.9372507 --> 01:29:17,534.9372507 And you sit here and I'm like, again, I'm not wanting anybody to get Hepatitis B, but that's not good enough.

1059 01:29:17,774.9372507 --> 01:29:17,894.9372507 Yeah.

1060 01:29:18,164.9372507 --> 01:29:20,324.9372507 Like that's good enough and it can't be good enough.

1061 01:29:20,324.9372507 --> 01:29:25,364.9372507 And doctors have to come together and say, look, if that's what Hepatitis B was based upon.

1062 01:29:25,814.9372507 --> 01:29:28,724.9372507 That doesn't mean we shouldn't give hepatitis B, but we should reevaluate it.

1063 01:29:28,724.9372507 --> 01:29:32,594.9372507 But at least at a minimum, let's sit here and say never again.

1064 01:29:32,594.9372507 --> 01:29:46,34.9372507 Are we gonna allow a newborn baby to get a vaccine that hasn't been studied in the way that we've all agreed is the most appropriate way to study it for safety, that has to be knowledge what was done because it can't ever be done again and it shouldn't have ever been done.

1065 01:29:46,34.9372507 --> 01:29:47,714.9372507 But like you can't go back and change it, I guess.

1066 01:29:47,744.9372507 --> 01:29:50,204.9372507 So we have to be able to acknowledge that.

1067 01:29:50,204.9372507 --> 01:29:54,434.9372507 So you say, look, if we're gonna give, I dunno, let's say we're gonna change the whooping cough vaccine to make a new one.

1068 01:29:54,434.9372507 --> 01:29:56,234.9372507 Like we're not gonna study it for five days.

1069 01:29:56,564.9372507 --> 01:30:00,314.9372507 We're gonna study it for years and we're gonna make sure it doesn't cause a problem before we do it.

1070 01:30:00,414.9372507 --> 01:30:01,614.9372507 That's not anti-vaccine.

1071 01:30:01,644.9372507 --> 01:30:11,694.9372507 That's, I don't wanna give my newborn baby something that hasn't been studied the best, most possible way and tens of thousands of kids following 'em for five or 10 years to make sure it doesn't cause problems.

1072 01:30:11,724.9372507 --> 01:30:13,434.9372507 'cause I'm not trying to give my baby problems.

1073 01:30:13,434.9372507 --> 01:30:14,364.9372507 I'm trying to protect them.

1074 01:30:14,784.9372507 --> 01:30:17,394.9372507 There's nothing anti-science or anti-vaccine about that.

1075 01:30:17,814.9372507 --> 01:30:20,94.9372507 That should be the standard and it's never been.

1076 01:30:20,169.9372507 --> 01:30:22,149.9372507 So I don't think that's controversial.

1077 01:30:22,149.9372507 --> 01:30:28,59.9372507 I think that's the way it should be, which is so wild that some people make it controversial, right?

That for me is where I struggle a lot.

1078 01:30:28,59.9372507 --> 01:30:34,749.9372507 It's like the fallacy and the argument of, well, if you question vaccines at all, then you must be anti-science.

1079 01:30:34,749.9372507 --> 01:30:37,809.9372507 And it's like, that is so far from the truth.

1080 01:30:37,809.9372507 --> 01:30:41,829.9372507 It, it almost for me is more pro science.

1081 01:30:41,829.9372507 --> 01:30:43,599.9372507 I'm asking you for more data.

1082 01:30:43,599.9372507 --> 01:30:48,909.9372507 I'm asking you for more science to help me understand the safety behind this.

1083 01:30:48,909.9372507 --> 01:30:53,619.9372507 And when you can't provide it to me, it makes me think you don't actually know what you're talking about.

1084 01:30:53,619.9372507 --> 01:30:58,839.9372507 Or that maybe that data just doesn't exist and you're trying to, you know, pull one over on me.

1085 01:30:59,259.9372507 --> 01:31:00,429.9372507 It's, it's literally opposite.

1086 01:31:00,429.9372507 --> 01:31:04,779.9372507 It's like how many parents who went and got a vaccine had a bad reaction and then started talking about it.

1087 01:31:04,779.9372507 --> 01:31:05,649.9372507 Were called anti-vax.

1088 01:31:05,649.9372507 --> 01:31:07,329.9372507 It's like, it's the most insane thing.

1089 01:31:07,449.9372507 --> 01:31:14,379.9372507 The person literally went in to get a vaccine, they feel like they had a problem and now they're called anti-vax because they feel like they had a problem.

1090 01:31:14,529.9372507 --> 01:31:15,579.9372507 They could be wrong.

1091 01:31:15,759.9372507 --> 01:31:20,289.9372507 They could, their kid could have had a heart attack this afternoon and got a vaccine this morning and has nothing to do with it.

1092 01:31:20,349.9372507 --> 01:31:24,189.9372507 But if a lot of people are having heart attacks the same day they get a vaccine, you should probably look into it.

1093 01:31:24,189.9372507 --> 01:31:24,279.9372507 Mm-hmm.

1094 01:31:24,519.9372507 --> 01:31:25,989.9372507 You shouldn't call them anti-vax.

1095 01:31:26,229.9372507 --> 01:31:27,999.9372507 You always say, Hey, that's interesting.

1096 01:31:28,269.9372507 --> 01:31:29,919.9372507 Uh, we don't want a lot of kids getting heart attacks.

1097 01:31:30,69.9372507 --> 01:31:31,569.9372507 Oh, they're all getting vaccines this morning.

1098 01:31:31,719.9372507 --> 01:31:34,329.9372507 Well, maybe we should study to make sure they're not causing heart attacks.

1099 01:31:34,779.9372507 --> 01:31:36,879.9372507 There's nothing anti-vaccine about that.

1100 01:31:36,879.9372507 --> 01:31:38,979.9372507 Like, that's just data that you should be using.

1101 01:31:38,979.9372507 --> 01:31:47,619.9372507 And when a whole bunch thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people will say, look, my kid went in to get a vaccine this day and then the next day they were totally different kid.

1102 01:31:47,879.9372507 --> 01:31:51,629.9372507 That should be something we should be listening to and not dismissing.

1103 01:31:51,629.9372507 --> 01:31:55,439.9372507 I mean, they could be wrong, but I don't know how many, hundreds of thousands of people said the same thing.

1104 01:31:55,829.9372507 --> 01:31:57,179.9372507 The data is and are wrong.

1105 01:31:57,509.9372507 --> 01:31:57,929.9372507 And are wrong.

1106 01:31:57,929.9372507 --> 01:31:58,739.9372507 I dunno, I dunno.

1107 01:31:58,739.9372507 --> 01:32:02,759.9372507 Maybe they're all wrong, but like, that just doesn't jive with me as a common sense.

1108 01:32:02,759.9372507 --> 01:32:08,939.9372507 I think something can happen sometimes and we're not getting that data because we're not trying to study it.

1109 01:32:08,939.9372507 --> 01:32:09,899.9372507 We're trying to avoid it.

1110 01:32:09,899.9372507 --> 01:32:19,19.9372507 And, and every time that something discusses our studies, this, it gets shut down probably by the forces that have the money to, keep the information as it should be.

1111 01:32:19,19.9372507 --> 01:32:23,149.9372507 Like that, that I I think that's not, evil, it's just business.

1112 01:32:23,579.9372507 --> 01:32:25,169.9372507 And, and that's just how it is.

1113 01:32:25,199.9372507 --> 01:32:31,979.9372507 And if you're a big pharma company, you're gonna do everything you can to make sure that people get as many of your products as possible.

1114 01:32:31,979.9372507 --> 01:32:35,429.9372507 And, and if somebody comes out and says something that like, oh, this happened.

1115 01:32:35,429.9372507 --> 01:32:38,69.9372507 No, no, it didn't it that, this, it's never been proven for that.

1116 01:32:38,99.9372507 --> 01:32:38,369.9372507 You're right.

1117 01:32:38,369.9372507 --> 01:32:39,59.9372507 It's never been proven.

1118 01:32:39,59.9372507 --> 01:32:42,659.9372507 'cause you have to study it to prove it, and they'll do everything to make sure that it doesn't get studied.

1119 01:32:43,139.9372507 --> 01:32:45,269.9372507 Otherwise, I would think we'd have all sorts of studies because.

1120 01:32:46,484.9372507 --> 01:32:48,464.9372507 You would think that'd be front page of the New York Times.

1121 01:32:48,464.9372507 --> 01:32:52,934.9372507 If you were like, look, we looked at Harvard, uh, or Kaiser, 10 million people.

1122 01:32:52,934.9372507 --> 01:32:54,764.9372507 We, we follow them for 20 years.

1123 01:32:54,764.9372507 --> 01:32:58,274.9372507 And, and the unvaccinated kids were exactly the same as the vaccinated kids for autism.

1124 01:32:58,274.9372507 --> 01:32:59,984.9372507 You could run that study in 15 minutes.

1125 01:33:00,434.9372507 --> 01:33:06,104.9372507 Uh, if as an epidemiologist and you don't see that ever so that it's a red flag for me that that's never happened.

1126 01:33:06,104.9372507 --> 01:33:09,679.9372507 And I don't know, it's, I don't wanna be conspiratorial 'cause I don't know the reason.

1127 01:33:09,679.9372507 --> 01:33:16,279.9372507 But you're like, why has, why is there no vaccinators unvaccinated studies like you?

I thought there was a ton when I started writing the book.

1128 01:33:17,599.9372507 --> 01:33:20,509.9372507 I still thought there was a ton because that's what we've always been taught.

1129 01:33:20,509.9372507 --> 01:33:27,499.9372507 Like I just assumed there was all this research of vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids and all this research on autism that, that, that is there.

1130 01:33:27,499.9372507 --> 01:33:29,644.9372507 And then you look at it and like, I could not believe it.

1131 01:33:29,644.9372507 --> 01:33:31,534.9372507 Like I spent so much time on that chapter.

1132 01:33:31,534.9372507 --> 01:33:38,254.9372507 I had to go back and work and read Paul's book and read Peter Hot's book and we all, I'm like, what am I missing?

Like, there has to be more.

1133 01:33:39,244.9372507 --> 01:33:39,304.9372507 Hmm.

1134 01:33:39,304.9372507 --> 01:33:44,974.9372507 And you're like, no one's ever done a vaccinated versus unvaccinated retrospective study with the data that we already have.

1135 01:33:45,484.9372507 --> 01:33:45,724.9372507 Nope.

1136 01:33:46,384.9372507 --> 01:33:49,94.9372507 Like that, that it's insane that that does not exist.

1137 01:33:49,484.9372507 --> 01:33:54,344.9372507 And the, the only one that kind of does now is the Henry Ford, which was, you know, still there's all these things around that.

1138 01:33:54,634.9372507 --> 01:34:01,504.9372507 But like, where is that?

Like, why has that not been done?

You're, you want to talk about silencing someone like Secretary Kennedy.

1139 01:34:01,524.9372507 --> 01:34:02,334.9372507 Just do that.

1140 01:34:02,634.9372507 --> 01:34:06,144.9372507 And they, and like, they're not stupid at the CDC or Paul off's.

1141 01:34:06,144.9372507 --> 01:34:06,654.9372507 Not stupid.

1142 01:34:06,654.9372507 --> 01:34:07,644.9372507 He is a brilliant guy.

1143 01:34:07,804.9372507 --> 01:34:10,924.9372507 Or all these people that are, that are super provax and brilliant.

1144 01:34:11,764.9372507 --> 01:34:18,964.9372507 Obviously they thought, Hey, let's look at the database that we have and let's see what vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids have they never thought to do that study.

1145 01:34:19,444.9372507 --> 01:34:19,744.9372507 Come on.

1146 01:34:21,94.9372507 --> 01:34:21,929.9372507 And that's what I wanna ask.

1147 01:34:21,934.9372507 --> 01:34:23,674.9372507 I wanna, I wanna ask them like, like, Mr.

1148 01:34:23,674.9372507 --> 01:34:35,194.9372507 Offit, why did you guys not run that study?

Like you had the VSD, where is that data?

Why didn't you do it?

Like you, obviously, if you're trying to prove this, where is that?

Like, you know, I don't, I, I, Dr.

1149 01:34:35,194.9372507 --> 01:34:37,804.9372507 Patel's younger, so probably wouldn't really be involved in that.

1150 01:34:37,809.9372507 --> 01:34:43,954.9372507 But it's like, well, where is that study?

Like, you talk to all these people, why aren't they doing this?

Like, let's get, let's get Harvard to like, run that study.

1151 01:34:44,194.9372507 --> 01:34:45,664.9372507 Do it however you wanna do it.

1152 01:34:45,734.9372507 --> 01:34:46,844.9372507 Just show people how you do it.

1153 01:34:48,104.9372507 --> 01:34:50,414.9372507 You are much better at giving people the benefit of the doubt.

1154 01:34:50,444.9372507 --> 01:34:53,444.9372507 'cause you're, you know, you continue to say like, I don't think it's nefarious.

1155 01:34:53,444.9372507 --> 01:35:00,524.9372507 And I just do, I think that there is a reason behind them not wanting, and I hope I'm wrong.

1156 01:35:00,524.9372507 --> 01:35:04,934.9372507 I hope that one day we get this study and they're like, look, we just never made it a priority.

1157 01:35:04,934.9372507 --> 01:35:11,294.9372507 Or, you know, maybe, maybe they come out and they say like, we were afraid of what we were gonna find, but we're glad that we did it.

1158 01:35:11,294.9372507 --> 01:35:13,64.9372507 And I just, I don't know.

1159 01:35:13,64.9372507 --> 01:35:23,224.9372507 I just think that there's a reason that they haven't run it and I, I really am looking forward to the day that we do have this vax versus un vaxxed child type of study.

1160 01:35:23,584.9372507 --> 01:35:25,504.9372507 We have the Henry Ford study now, right?

Yeah.

1161 01:35:25,684.9372507 --> 01:35:28,664.9372507 And you see when that says, and I dunno if you've seen the documentary, but mm-hmm.

1162 01:35:29,674.9372507 --> 01:35:32,524.9372507 We, we heard what that, that researcher said, and I think that's what it is.

1163 01:35:32,884.9372507 --> 01:35:42,574.9372507 I think that people ran the data many times and they get something that they don't like and they don't wanna be the one who has their career destroyed.

1164 01:35:42,574.9372507 --> 01:35:44,674.9372507 And, and you like that guy Seems like a very nice guy.

1165 01:35:44,674.9372507 --> 01:35:47,704.9372507 And like, you know, he's had a long career as an infectious disease doctor.

1166 01:35:47,704.9372507 --> 01:35:48,784.9372507 A super prominent dude.

1167 01:35:49,54.9372507 --> 01:35:49,144.9372507 Yeah.

1168 01:35:50,44.9372507 --> 01:35:51,904.9372507 Who was not afraid of controversy.

1169 01:35:51,904.9372507 --> 01:36:02,734.9372507 Like this is a guy who, was a whistleblower with Flint, Michigan water and like, did a hydroxychloroquine study in COVID and got lots of crap for that and still refused to publish this study.

1170 01:36:02,944.9372507 --> 01:36:08,284.9372507 And it wasn't because the data was bad and it wasn't because Henry Ford silenced it or whatever, he just didn't wanna do it.

1171 01:36:08,284.9372507 --> 01:36:21,844.9372507 Like that's, it's very obvious when you watch that film and you get that that hidden camera footage, which is like really useful because it's kind of what I thought was happening, but to get, to actually see someone, you're like, oh man, I feel bad for this guy.

1172 01:36:21,874.9372507 --> 01:36:30,379.9372507 'cause like, you know, that if he publishes that he's career's done and he's gonna be dealing with this forever and they're gonna pick it apart and, and, and see what, what's wrong with the study and whatever.

1173 01:36:30,379.9372507 --> 01:36:34,759.9372507 And like that was like, at least to me, it's one of the best studies ever been done on as a retrospective.

1174 01:36:35,29.9372507 --> 01:36:35,149.9372507 Mm-hmm.

1175 01:36:35,689.9372507 --> 01:36:39,209.9372507 And obviously there are issues with it, but those are the same issues you would always have with this.

1176 01:36:39,209.9372507 --> 01:36:46,149.9372507 And he, he tried to control for the things that, that you would try to control for better than the other studies that are published.

1177 01:36:46,149.9372507 --> 01:36:54,159.9372507 So I don't, I don't see where the terrible study part of it is, but I do see this guy who's just basically like, look, I just wanna finish my career.

1178 01:36:54,159.9372507 --> 01:36:59,79.9372507 I don't, I don't wanna be the guy who like publishes a study that shows the vaccines and I have to deal with that the rest of my career.

1179 01:36:59,79.9372507 --> 01:36:59,979.9372507 Like, that's not what I'm doing.

1180 01:37:00,369.9372507 --> 01:37:04,539.9372507 And, and I think that's probably what has happened with the data.

1181 01:37:04,539.9372507 --> 01:37:05,799.9372507 That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

1182 01:37:05,949.9372507 --> 01:37:06,159.9372507 Yeah.

1183 01:37:06,189.9372507 --> 01:37:11,619.9372507 But I don't know, I don't, don't wanna be conspiratorial because I don't wanna say something because I don't think you need to, I don't think you need to be conspirator on this.

1184 01:37:11,619.9372507 --> 01:37:12,319.9372507 I think we need to be.

1185 01:37:13,44.9372507 --> 01:37:14,64.9372507 Driven by the facts.

1186 01:37:14,64.9372507 --> 01:37:16,614.9372507 And the facts are it doesn't exist and that's all that we need to discuss.

1187 01:37:16,614.9372507 --> 01:37:18,24.9372507 It doesn't exist, so we should go get it.

1188 01:37:18,24.9372507 --> 01:37:20,184.9372507 And I don't care what was done in the past.

1189 01:37:20,184.9372507 --> 01:37:21,384.9372507 I don't care who did or didn't.

1190 01:37:21,384.9372507 --> 01:37:22,554.9372507 If they ran it or they didn't run it.

1191 01:37:22,554.9372507 --> 01:37:23,604.9372507 Like it doesn't matter.

1192 01:37:23,964.9372507 --> 01:37:26,334.9372507 Really what matters is that you actually do it now.

1193 01:37:26,734.9372507 --> 01:37:34,714.9372507 And I, I hope that because we can talk about it now, then this will start happening and you know, maybe some people will run the data or maybe Kennedy will make it happen.

1194 01:37:34,714.9372507 --> 01:37:37,904.9372507 He was gonna push it, but even he's not the right guy to do it, unfortunately.

1195 01:37:37,904.9372507 --> 01:37:40,184.9372507 Because then as soon as he does it, it's like, oh, it's Kennedy or whatever.

1196 01:37:40,184.9372507 --> 01:37:40,754.9372507 He's anti-vax.

1197 01:37:40,754.9372507 --> 01:37:40,814.9372507 Yeah.

1198 01:37:40,814.9372507 --> 01:37:42,429.9372507 You know, it's like, it needs to be like.

1199 01:37:43,184.9372507 --> 01:37:47,684.9372507 A team at Harvard or something like, Hey, look, we did this and it's totally not what we expected to find.

1200 01:37:47,684.9372507 --> 01:37:51,314.9372507 Like what do we do now?

That would be really useful for science.

1201 01:37:51,554.9372507 --> 01:38:04,124.9372507 Ultimately, you can't, I mean, Kennedy's probably gonna do it, but then ultimately, whatever they find, they're gonna just say it's bias, which isn't helpful as much as something like a Henry Ford study would be where it's like, well, we really thought we were not gonna find problems, but we did.

1202 01:38:04,394.9372507 --> 01:38:07,574.9372507 Uh, well now let's redo this study and like, let's study it 10 more times.

1203 01:38:07,574.9372507 --> 01:38:09,914.9372507 And let's see, because maybe the study does have problems.

1204 01:38:09,944.9372507 --> 01:38:11,384.9372507 I don't know, like maybe they did something wrong.

1205 01:38:11,384.9372507 --> 01:38:12,404.9372507 Maybe their data is bad.

1206 01:38:12,764.9372507 --> 01:38:17,84.9372507 Maybe the kids are unvaccinated or just they don't, not they're unvaccinated because they're not getting data.

1207 01:38:17,84.9372507 --> 01:38:20,114.9372507 'cause they're not even, they leave like they're not part of the system or so that's possible.

1208 01:38:20,234.9372507 --> 01:38:23,864.9372507 But you should take that data and say like, look, this is a pretty strong signal.

1209 01:38:24,104.9372507 --> 01:38:24,824.9372507 Let's do it again.

1210 01:38:24,884.9372507 --> 01:38:25,694.9372507 Let's do it again at Caiso.

1211 01:38:25,694.9372507 --> 01:38:26,474.9372507 Let's do it again at Harvard.

1212 01:38:26,474.9372507 --> 01:38:27,464.9372507 Let's do it again in England.

1213 01:38:27,464.9372507 --> 01:38:28,694.9372507 Let's do it again in Denmark.

1214 01:38:28,994.9372507 --> 01:38:30,164.9372507 Let's do 20 studies.

1215 01:38:30,164.9372507 --> 01:38:31,34.9372507 Let's look at this.

1216 01:38:31,184.9372507 --> 01:38:31,304.9372507 Okay.

1217 01:38:31,304.9372507 --> 01:38:35,384.9372507 What do those show?

Oh, they all show that vaccines are causing more issues than not.

1218 01:38:36,14.9372507 --> 01:38:36,284.9372507 Okay.

1219 01:38:36,284.9372507 --> 01:38:37,124.9372507 Well that's a problem.

1220 01:38:37,124.9372507 --> 01:38:39,134.9372507 Now we gotta study it forward to see if that's true or not.

1221 01:38:39,779.9372507 --> 01:38:41,69.9372507 You have, that's what we have to do.

1222 01:38:41,69.9372507 --> 01:38:41,879.9372507 That's what science is.

1223 01:38:41,879.9372507 --> 01:38:44,249.9372507 Or you do 10 more studies, like no, no, the signal's not actually there.

1224 01:38:44,249.9372507 --> 01:38:45,989.9372507 If you controlled for this, then it's gone.

1225 01:38:46,199.9372507 --> 01:38:47,39.9372507 Okay, that's good.

1226 01:38:47,39.9372507 --> 01:38:48,89.9372507 Like, that's what you want.

1227 01:38:48,389.9372507 --> 01:38:56,969.9372507 Nobody's saying that that one study proves anything, but it proves that people are not publishing the results because they're afraid.

1228 01:38:58,539.9372507 --> 01:38:59,259.9372507 That's what it proves.

1229 01:38:59,264.9372507 --> 01:39:06,9.9372507 And, and that shows you, you only have one side of the information and that's why we are here today because we don't have the other side.

1230 01:39:06,9.9372507 --> 01:39:08,769.9372507 And if we did, then we would have better answers.

1231 01:39:08,769.9372507 --> 01:39:12,999.9372507 And I think people would either be super comfortable getting vaccines or we would have changes to the vaccine program.

1232 01:39:13,149.9372507 --> 01:39:13,299.9372507 Yeah.

1233 01:39:13,299.9372507 --> 01:39:13,969.9372507 To make it safer.

1234 01:39:13,994.9372507 --> 01:39:19,599.9372507 And, and instead of people just fearing publishing the research, uh, I, I think they're just afraid to even look.

1235 01:39:20,139.9372507 --> 01:39:20,559.9372507 Yeah.

1236 01:39:20,619.9372507 --> 01:39:21,129.9372507 Oh my gosh.

1237 01:39:21,129.9372507 --> 01:39:22,689.9372507 I agree with you wholeheartedly.

1238 01:39:23,229.9372507 --> 01:39:23,529.9372507 Okay.

1239 01:39:23,529.9372507 --> 01:39:28,989.9372507 The documentary you're talking about is the Inconvenient Truth, is that right?

Yeah, it was just published.

1240 01:39:28,989.9372507 --> 01:39:30,699.9372507 We'll link that in the show notes for you guys.

1241 01:39:30,729.9372507 --> 01:39:31,59.9372507 Okay.

1242 01:39:31,239.9372507 --> 01:39:33,249.9372507 What do we know about SIDS and vaccines?

I.

1243 01:39:34,614.9372507 --> 01:39:38,494.9372507 Yeah, SIDS is a complicated one because you know, that's so charged.

1244 01:39:38,554.9372507 --> 01:39:40,864.9372507 But ultimately SIDS rates have come down a lot.

1245 01:39:41,224.9372507 --> 01:39:41,314.9372507 Okay.

1246 01:39:41,314.9372507 --> 01:39:42,964.9372507 In the last, you know, several decades.

1247 01:39:42,964.9372507 --> 01:39:57,389.9372507 So I think if you are looking at SIDS in comparison to all the other conditions, the argument is, well, chronic disease is going up because vaccines have increased, but SIDS has gone down dramatically since the back to sleep campaign.

1248 01:39:57,629.9372507 --> 01:39:57,719.9372507 Okay.

1249 01:39:57,719.9372507 --> 01:40:05,49.9372507 So that, so it doesn't hold up for that, which to me, presuming that the de definition hasn't changed, which is argument there.

1250 01:40:05,289.9372507 --> 01:40:14,349.9372507 So there's a lot of other side things that like you have to, like look at, but presuming that you just kind of leave what SIDS is versus then and now and what it's called then and now, there's a lot less SIDS than there used to be.

1251 01:40:14,349.9372507 --> 01:40:19,239.9372507 So therefore it seems less likely that vaccines would be the primary driver of that, given that it's gone down so much.

1252 01:40:19,659.9372507 --> 01:40:24,159.9372507 I have read several articles on it that say, well, it's been reclassified to other things.

1253 01:40:24,159.9372507 --> 01:40:25,179.9372507 It's called other things.

1254 01:40:25,449.9372507 --> 01:40:34,539.9372507 So that makes it really hard because that, that could then, you know, factor in, you could say, well then it could then be vaccines if you've just reclassified it as something else, and it's not actually SIDS anymore.

1255 01:40:34,539.9372507 --> 01:40:40,209.9372507 So that, that's where it's a little complicated, but at least based on SIDS being SIDS, then you would have to say it's gone down.

1256 01:40:40,209.9372507 --> 01:40:43,749.9372507 So, at least to me that that's not a clear pathway.

1257 01:40:43,749.9372507 --> 01:40:46,359.9372507 Maybe some part of SIDS is related to vaccines.

1258 01:40:46,359.9372507 --> 01:40:48,129.9372507 Maybe it's some subset, happens sometimes.

1259 01:40:48,129.9372507 --> 01:40:49,29.9372507 I'm sure it does.

1260 01:40:49,29.9372507 --> 01:40:51,959.9372507 Like any disease, you any medication could cause a problem.

1261 01:40:51,959.9372507 --> 01:40:56,39.9372507 So I, I don't see why it couldn't, but doesn't seem to be the primary driver.

1262 01:40:56,39.9372507 --> 01:41:04,859.9372507 And then the, the, there, there's always people that comment on the, the VAERS data and, oh, well, you know, this much, like 70% of of SIDS cases happen around the time of vaccine.

1263 01:41:04,889.9372507 --> 01:41:10,359.9372507 But that doesn't hold with, with VAERS data because people only report things if they think it's related.

1264 01:41:10,869.9372507 --> 01:41:13,809.9372507 So you're, you're gonna have a lot more reports around a vaccine.

1265 01:41:14,169.9372507 --> 01:41:16,179.9372507 To VAERS because you're thinking about the vaccine.

1266 01:41:16,179.9372507 --> 01:41:24,249.9372507 So like exa, imagine if you have a, if your kid dies a day after you get a vaccine, you're pretty likely to think, oh, that might be related to the vaccine.

1267 01:41:24,249.9372507 --> 01:41:24,819.9372507 I'm gonna report it.

1268 01:41:24,819.9372507 --> 01:41:28,569.9372507 But if your kid dies 30 days away, you might not be thinking it has anything to do with the vaccine.

1269 01:41:28,569.9372507 --> 01:41:34,59.9372507 So you're not gonna necessarily report it to VAERS, but it doesn't mean a whole bunch of kids don't die 30 days from now, they're just not reporting it to VAERS.

1270 01:41:34,419.9372507 --> 01:41:41,649.9372507 So that research to me is not as clear as it would be on a prospective trial, which you would need.

1271 01:41:41,649.9372507 --> 01:41:56,799.9372507 And, and the better research in general shows not a huge difference with timing of, of vaccines and generally doesn't show any increase and SIDS is easier to study than some of the other things because obviously it's like a, a severe thing and it's really, you know, imminent and it's only in the first couple months.

1272 01:41:57,99.9372507 --> 01:41:59,859.9372507 So I, I think we have better data on it than almost anything else.

1273 01:41:59,969.9372507 --> 01:42:08,849.9372507 So I'm not, I'm still not saying that it couldn't cause it, but I, I think that a lot of SIDS is related to other things and that's why we've seen it decrease so much.

1274 01:42:09,254.9372507 --> 01:42:18,954.9372507 And less, less so with, with vaccines, just given how much has gone down in comparison to all the other things, which has skyrocketed, you would thinks would just skyrocketed as well if it was related to vaccines, which it hasn't.

1275 01:42:19,14.9372507 --> 01:42:19,44.9372507 Mm.

1276 01:42:20,304.9372507 --> 01:42:21,129.9372507 I had Dr.

1277 01:42:21,129.9372507 --> 01:42:29,664.9372507 Greer Kirschenbaum on the show, and she's the founder of the Nurture Revolution, and, and she was, I had her on to talk about sleeping close with our babies.

1278 01:42:29,664.9372507 --> 01:42:39,534.9372507 So we talked about co-sleeping and we talked about bed sharing, and we talked about room sharing, and we talked about the data behind, you know, the good, the bad, how it is construed, misconstrued.

1279 01:42:39,534.9372507 --> 01:42:43,734.9372507 And she talked specifically about something that I, I did not know.

1280 01:42:43,734.9372507 --> 01:42:53,254.9372507 And it was that when we look at SIDS in a lot of the studies, they don't differentiate between true SIDS versus ASSB.

1281 01:42:53,274.9372507 --> 01:42:57,774.9372507 And for anyone listening that is accidental strangulation and suffocation in bed.

1282 01:42:58,54.9372507 --> 01:43:00,934.9372507 And so it's all, it all kind of gets lumped in with sids.

1283 01:43:00,934.9372507 --> 01:43:16,564.9372507 And so when we look at true sids, there are deeper questions that haven't been answered yet because we don't do a great job of filtering out ASSB and it's all kind of lumped in, which was super interesting for me to learn.

1284 01:43:16,654.9372507 --> 01:43:19,894.9372507 I had just never, I guess I had never looked into it.

1285 01:43:20,164.9372507 --> 01:43:22,894.9372507 The SIDS is just so scary and it's very real.

1286 01:43:22,894.9372507 --> 01:43:27,844.9372507 It's obviously rare, but it is, um, you know, it's something that's on every new parent's mind, I think.

1287 01:43:28,624.9372507 --> 01:43:29,374.9372507 Yeah, it is.

1288 01:43:29,374.9372507 --> 01:43:34,684.9372507 And, and, and again, I I just go back to this is such a severe, it's such an important thing.

1289 01:43:34,684.9372507 --> 01:43:35,464.9372507 I mean, obviously mm-hmm.

1290 01:43:35,974.9372507 --> 01:43:39,4.9372507 Like the worst possible thing, so we shouldn't rule out vaccines.

1291 01:43:39,4.9372507 --> 01:43:39,724.9372507 Like that's just simple.

1292 01:43:39,724.9372507 --> 01:43:41,884.9372507 Like it should be on a list of things and that's it.

1293 01:43:41,934.9372507 --> 01:43:46,974.9372507 I don't think we should assume that it is, but I don't think we should count it out and we should continue to study it.

1294 01:43:46,974.9372507 --> 01:43:48,834.9372507 And I think there's a lot of nuance.

1295 01:43:48,834.9372507 --> 01:43:55,304.9372507 SIDS is very complicated, just like you said, because it's, it's so based on the who's diagnosing it and what you call it and what you document it.

1296 01:43:55,304.9372507 --> 01:43:57,494.9372507 Because I mean, SIDS is literally like sudden infant death syndrome.

1297 01:43:57,494.9372507 --> 01:43:59,534.9372507 Like it's death that you don't know the cause.

1298 01:43:59,834.9372507 --> 01:44:04,289.9372507 So everyone's kind of gonna write that differently.

1299 01:44:04,319.9372507 --> 01:44:04,409.9372507 Mm-hmm.

1300 01:44:04,979.9372507 --> 01:44:08,279.9372507 And what we know is causing things has changed a lot over the years.

1301 01:44:08,279.9372507 --> 01:44:10,469.9372507 We're much better at diagnosing things for sure.

1302 01:44:10,829.9372507 --> 01:44:12,149.9372507 Now than 50 years ago.

1303 01:44:12,149.9372507 --> 01:44:16,529.9372507 So a lot of stuff that might've been called SIDS before might not be called SIDS now because we have an answer to that.

1304 01:44:16,919.9372507 --> 01:44:20,189.9372507 Um, but it also doesn't mean that that death still didn't have anything to do with the vaccine.

1305 01:44:20,189.9372507 --> 01:44:32,649.9372507 Like, you could label a death heart attack, right?

But it could still be from a vaccine vaccine that caused a heart attack, right?

Let's just example, right?

So, you know, we all like know about myocarditis, right?

So imagine a person dies from that.

1306 01:44:32,649.9372507 --> 01:44:45,519.9372507 You could label it as myocarditis, but it still could be, ultimately the myocarditis was caused by the vaccine, right?

And so if you're talking about sids, if you have a heart attack that you know is a heart attack, you're not gonna label it as sids, you are gonna label it as a heart attack.

1307 01:44:46,779.9372507 --> 01:44:50,709.9372507 So the better that we get it, diagnosing those kind of things, the less it's gonna be caused from SIDS.

1308 01:44:51,129.9372507 --> 01:44:54,729.9372507 But maybe that still could be related to a vaccine potentially.

1309 01:44:54,729.9372507 --> 01:44:57,309.9372507 So I, I think that's why it's so complicated, because it depends.

1310 01:44:57,819.9372507 --> 01:45:01,329.9372507 How you define SIDS and, and what you label and how good those people are.

1311 01:45:01,809.9372507 --> 01:45:01,899.9372507 Mm-hmm.

1312 01:45:01,899.9372507 --> 01:45:07,149.9372507 So, yeah, it's super complicated, but I, I, I just think ultimately we should be considering vaccines too.

1313 01:45:07,929.9372507 --> 01:45:11,919.9372507 But then I, I think it's, it's a very plausible mechanism to me mm-hmm.

1314 01:45:12,519.9372507 --> 01:45:19,359.9372507 That you're giving kids a bunch of vaccines and the next day that something happens, or maybe it's vaccine plus the kid gets sick or vaccine, plus they're super susceptible.

1315 01:45:19,579.9372507 --> 01:45:19,759.9372507 Yeah.

1316 01:45:19,759.9372507 --> 01:45:29,719.9372507 Maybe it's not the vaccine, but it's like a mixture of things that just pushes a kid over the edge or affects their heart, or I, I don't know, like maybe you injected it into a vein or an artery and they, they get more load.

1317 01:45:29,719.9372507 --> 01:45:31,69.9372507 It's, who knows?

I don't know.

1318 01:45:31,69.9372507 --> 01:45:35,629.9372507 Like, like maybe that's why we don't know what says is because it does something to you that, that we can't even study.

1319 01:45:35,989.9372507 --> 01:45:37,849.9372507 Uh, and maybe that's just 5% of SIDS.

1320 01:45:37,849.9372507 --> 01:45:43,769.9372507 But, but again, that's, that's what we should be studying to try to minimize because we, we shouldn't care that it's from a vaccine.

1321 01:45:43,769.9372507 --> 01:45:47,9.9372507 We should care that we're trying to minimize SIDS from anything.

1322 01:45:47,69.9372507 --> 01:45:51,599.9372507 Yeah, whether it's a vaccine medication, a toxin, the way that they sleep, I don't care.

1323 01:45:51,599.9372507 --> 01:45:54,329.9372507 Like, again, it's, I, we're not, we're not trying to get more kids vaccinated.

1324 01:45:54,329.9372507 --> 01:45:55,379.9372507 We're trying to get healthier kids.

1325 01:45:55,379.9372507 --> 01:46:01,909.9372507 So yeah, ultimately you shouldn't rule out something that you're doing around the time when a kid has sudden infant death syndrome.

1326 01:46:01,909.9372507 --> 01:46:06,869.9372507 It should just be part of the discussion, and we should always be thinking about it because maybe there's a mechanism we haven't even explored yet.

1327 01:46:07,799.9372507 --> 01:46:15,109.9372507 What about aluminum in vaccines?

So we've got a lot of you know, vaccine skeptics that say aluminum shouldn't be used.

1328 01:46:15,109.9372507 --> 01:46:23,869.9372507 And, and then you have the, I think medical, the mainstream medical people who say like aluminum is necessary, it has to be in vaccines.

1329 01:46:23,869.9372507 --> 01:46:31,249.9372507 And then you've got people who are part of the r and d teams for vaccines who say there's actually not a lot in vaccines that actually get injected to you.

1330 01:46:31,249.9372507 --> 01:46:35,659.9372507 They're more like adjuvants and it's used for the r and d, but a lot of it is filtered out.

1331 01:46:35,869.9372507 --> 01:46:40,9.9372507 Then you have the camp that says, well, even breast milk has aluminum in it.

1332 01:46:40,39.9372507 --> 01:46:50,389.9372507 So what do we need to know about aluminum in vaccines?

Yeah, I, I would say it's the most controversial ingredient at the moment.

1333 01:46:50,389.9372507 --> 01:46:52,309.9372507 I think it's the thing that most people are concerned about.

1334 01:46:52,309.9372507 --> 01:46:56,119.9372507 And, and there's finally, I think, more discussion on it.

1335 01:46:56,749.9372507 --> 01:47:00,79.9372507 It's not unreasonable in my mind to be concerned about aluminum.

1336 01:47:00,349.9372507 --> 01:47:00,829.9372507 Totally.

1337 01:47:01,129.9372507 --> 01:47:02,209.9372507 We're worried about metals.

1338 01:47:02,209.9372507 --> 01:47:08,359.9372507 We've always been, you go back to lead, you know, we weren't worried about lead and then we were worried about lead, and then we're like, now you shouldn't have any lead.

1339 01:47:08,359.9372507 --> 01:47:09,139.9372507 'cause you know, it's bad.

1340 01:47:09,139.9372507 --> 01:47:12,439.9372507 And then we were not worried about mercury, and you could just drink it and it was fine.

1341 01:47:12,439.9372507 --> 01:47:13,969.9372507 And then we're like, oh, you probably shouldn't have mercury.

1342 01:47:14,179.9372507 --> 01:47:16,969.9372507 And then we realized there's mercury in vaccines, then we took it outta vaccines.

1343 01:47:16,969.9372507 --> 01:47:22,39.9372507 And, you know, whether it caused an issue or not, it's still debatable, but they took it out cautionary.

1344 01:47:22,39.9372507 --> 01:47:25,929.9372507 But, I don't know that I want mercury vaccines, even though it's a different one than what's in fish.

1345 01:47:25,929.9372507 --> 01:47:27,169.9372507 But either way, so probably want it.

1346 01:47:27,169.9372507 --> 01:47:28,639.9372507 And now there's aluminum in vaccines.

1347 01:47:28,639.9372507 --> 01:47:35,959.9372507 So the argument for mainstream medicine is the same as it always is, is it's a small amount and it doesn't cause an issue and you shouldn't be worried about it.

1348 01:47:37,519.9372507 --> 01:47:37,739.9372507 I don't know.

1349 01:47:37,909.9372507 --> 01:47:40,249.9372507 It just, it doesn't sit right with me.

1350 01:47:40,429.9372507 --> 01:47:40,939.9372507 Totally.

1351 01:47:40,939.9372507 --> 01:47:41,119.9372507 I.

1352 01:47:41,629.9372507 --> 01:47:45,709.9372507 It is true that it's very little, right?

It's a very small amount compared to what you ingest.

1353 01:47:45,709.9372507 --> 01:47:46,519.9372507 That's for sure true.

1354 01:47:46,939.9372507 --> 01:47:51,889.9372507 It's been studied to some degree but we're giving a lot more vaccines with a lot more aluminum cumulatively.

1355 01:47:52,249.9372507 --> 01:47:54,739.9372507 Uh, so I don't think we have the research quite like that.

1356 01:47:54,739.9372507 --> 01:48:04,249.9372507 I, I don't think the logic flows in my mind that orally ingesting is exactly the same as injecting something and it's injecting in a mixture of other things.

1357 01:48:04,249.9372507 --> 01:48:13,874.9372507 So that's not to say that it can't be detoxified or isn't, but it's not the same evolutionary mechanism we've always had of, of, you know.

1358 01:48:13,874.9372507 --> 01:48:17,324.9372507 'cause yes, there's aluminum everywhere and we are ingesting it, but your body's evolved for that.

1359 01:48:17,894.9372507 --> 01:48:22,634.9372507 Um, and, and not necessarily evolve for injecting it into your muscle and then dealing with that.

1360 01:48:22,634.9372507 --> 01:48:28,244.9372507 It doesn't mean it can't, but I just think that when you are injecting something, it's a different mechanism.

1361 01:48:28,244.9372507 --> 01:48:34,874.9372507 So why, again, if you could just walk by a peanut for some people and have anaphylaxis, couldn't you inject a little bit of aluminum?

And for some people.

1362 01:48:35,414.9372507 --> 01:48:41,624.9372507 That couldn't cause a serious reaction, couldn't go to your brain, couldn't cause brain inflammation, couldn't, you know, cause inflammation in your heart, whatever.

1363 01:48:41,624.9372507 --> 01:48:44,894.9372507 If it just goes to the wrong place or gets dealt with in not the best way.

1364 01:48:44,894.9372507 --> 01:48:48,104.9372507 I don't see why that couldn't cause an issue sometimes, it probably doesn't.

1365 01:48:48,104.9372507 --> 01:48:54,224.9372507 Most of the time it's, it is a very small amount and your body can't handle it in general based on what we think we know.

1366 01:48:54,654.9372507 --> 01:48:57,564.9372507 But I, again, it's, I just don't think it's an unreasonable question.

1367 01:48:58,494.9372507 --> 01:48:58,554.9372507 Hmm.

1368 01:48:58,554.9372507 --> 01:48:59,484.9372507 Reasonable fear.

1369 01:48:59,964.9372507 --> 01:49:06,594.9372507 And I think it's something that we should be continuing to study, given that it does benefit the vaccines.

1370 01:49:06,594.9372507 --> 01:49:07,464.9372507 It does help them work.

1371 01:49:07,464.9372507 --> 01:49:08,214.9372507 So that's why it's in there.

1372 01:49:08,214.9372507 --> 01:49:09,654.9372507 And then they work much better because of that.

1373 01:49:09,654.9372507 --> 01:49:15,484.9372507 They can use a lot lower of an amount of antigen because it stimulates your body, to actually do an immune response.

1374 01:49:15,484.9372507 --> 01:49:17,674.9372507 If without it in there, it might not actually stimulate immune response.

1375 01:49:17,674.9372507 --> 01:49:18,844.9372507 So the vaccine might not work.

1376 01:49:18,844.9372507 --> 01:49:19,774.9372507 So that, that's why it's in there.

1377 01:49:19,774.9372507 --> 01:49:21,214.9372507 Like it, it helps and it does work.

1378 01:49:21,554.9372507 --> 01:49:33,69.9372507 But then the question becomes, okay, does it cause a problem?

If it does, how often?

And then if it does cause a problem, are there other alternatives that we could use that are safer?

And until you can ask those questions, until you don't just say, oh, it's just safe.

1379 01:49:33,129.9372507 --> 01:49:33,609.9372507 Don't worry about it.

1380 01:49:33,609.9372507 --> 01:49:34,359.9372507 It's just a small amount.

1381 01:49:35,49.9372507 --> 01:49:36,489.9372507 Well then you can't find alternatives.

1382 01:49:36,519.9372507 --> 01:49:41,409.9372507 And maybe there are alternatives that will work just as well, that are, are safer, that aren't of metal, that our body can handle better.

1383 01:49:41,409.9372507 --> 01:49:45,549.9372507 And there are other things that are being studied and are somewhat used in other vaccines.

1384 01:49:45,549.9372507 --> 01:49:53,754.9372507 Not so much in the childhood vaccines, but even in, in some of the adult vaccines, because I haven't been asked this before and I looked it up and I didn't, you know, I don't know too much about it.

1385 01:49:53,754.9372507 --> 01:50:01,864.9372507 But there are other adjuvants that are used and, and they have like weird names but chemical names, but they're out there and, uh, you know, maybe those could be studied and they're safer or we could use 'em.

1386 01:50:01,864.9372507 --> 01:50:07,264.9372507 So it, it is not like just 'cause you got rid of aluminum, there could be vaccines, but they're not tested.

1387 01:50:07,304.9372507 --> 01:50:20,594.9372507 And once again, it goes back to, okay, what the companies have no reason to do this, right?

Like if they, if they can't be sued, and let's say aluminum is the problem, if they were able to be sued, they might've changed 'em a long time ago.

1388 01:50:20,594.9372507 --> 01:50:24,284.9372507 If aluminum was the issue, they found that and they'd be like, oh, let's use like sip 1714.

1389 01:50:24,284.9372507 --> 01:50:26,294.9372507 I'm just making up a thing, right?

Like let's use this other adjuvant.

1390 01:50:26,294.9372507 --> 01:50:27,134.9372507 It works just as well.

1391 01:50:27,869.9372507 --> 01:50:33,119.9372507 Why would they go and spend billions of dollars to study this to see if they could find a safer alternative?

Hmm.

1392 01:50:33,479.9372507 --> 01:50:36,809.9372507 One, it proves that there's a problem, and two, then, then they have to do all this research and change it.

1393 01:50:36,809.9372507 --> 01:50:45,629.9372507 Like why would they do that?

So unless we identify that aluminum is a problem, then you can go back to 'em and say, well, we're not getting your vaccines anymore unless you change it.

1394 01:50:46,739.9372507 --> 01:50:47,669.9372507 But they're not gonna do that.

1395 01:50:47,819.9372507 --> 01:50:50,369.9372507 And who's making 'em do that?

So no one's studying them that way.

1396 01:50:50,729.9372507 --> 01:50:55,289.9372507 So it doesn't mean that aluminum causes a problem, but it does mean we don't really know.

1397 01:50:55,289.9372507 --> 01:50:59,579.9372507 And when people say, oh no, it's safe, it's been studied, like really?

Like, I, I don't know, man.

1398 01:50:59,579.9372507 --> 01:51:06,239.9372507 I've looked, I, I can't say that I've seen like this strong body of research looking at all these kids with no aluminum versus aluminum.

1399 01:51:06,269.9372507 --> 01:51:08,399.9372507 Again, we haven't studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids.

1400 01:51:08,399.9372507 --> 01:51:10,559.9372507 So how do you know, like most of the research is in animals.

1401 01:51:11,59.9372507 --> 01:51:13,669.9372507 And even that's not like super clear that it couldn't cause problems.

1402 01:51:13,669.9372507 --> 01:51:15,709.9372507 And some of the animal research shows that it goes to the brain.

1403 01:51:16,339.9372507 --> 01:51:17,119.9372507 Other places.

1404 01:51:17,119.9372507 --> 01:51:28,739.9372507 So again, it's like, what do we really know?

Like we say that we know, but do, are we saying that we know or are we saying it hasn't been proven to cause a problem, therefore it doesn't cause a problem?

That's what I think most of vaccine research really is.

1405 01:51:29,249.9372507 --> 01:51:29,339.9372507 Yeah.

1406 01:51:29,339.9372507 --> 01:51:30,779.9372507 It has not been proven to be a problem.

1407 01:51:30,779.9372507 --> 01:51:34,429.9372507 Therefore it is not a problem, which is not the same I the same.

1408 01:51:34,429.9372507 --> 01:51:37,49.9372507 It's, it's, the answer is, I don't know.

1409 01:51:37,169.9372507 --> 01:51:38,369.9372507 I haven't, I don't know.

1410 01:51:38,369.9372507 --> 01:51:39,509.9372507 I haven't seen it cause a problem.

1411 01:51:39,539.9372507 --> 01:51:41,609.9372507 It's a very different answer than it does not cause a problem.

1412 01:51:41,639.9372507 --> 01:51:49,949.9372507 And when you hear Plotkin, Edwards, all these mainstream doctors on the stand talking about these things, that is their answer.

1413 01:51:49,949.9372507 --> 01:51:53,849.9372507 Their answer is, we don't have any research to show that it causes a problem.

1414 01:51:53,849.9372507 --> 01:51:54,929.9372507 That's why I'm saying this.

1415 01:51:55,649.9372507 --> 01:51:56,969.9372507 But that's not what they say.

1416 01:51:56,969.9372507 --> 01:52:00,629.9372507 They say when you ask them on the news or whatever, it doesn't cause a problem.

1417 01:52:01,79.9372507 --> 01:52:02,729.9372507 We know that it's safe, it's been studied.

1418 01:52:03,599.9372507 --> 01:52:04,769.9372507 It's not the same thing.

1419 01:52:04,769.9372507 --> 01:52:07,439.9372507 And that's not actually what the data shows and it's not what they say under oath.

1420 01:52:08,39.9372507 --> 01:52:10,109.9372507 So I don't know.

1421 01:52:10,139.9372507 --> 01:52:11,549.9372507 That's just what I've heard and what I've seen.

1422 01:52:11,549.9372507 --> 01:52:12,899.9372507 And so I, I just think that.

1423 01:52:13,304.9372507 --> 01:52:18,104.9372507 Again, it's like these people should be questioned about these things and they should be pushed harder on those subjects.

1424 01:52:18,104.9372507 --> 01:52:24,884.9372507 But only really Aaron's theory has pushed them and only when they're on the stand and his job is not to like get them to expand on this information.

1425 01:52:24,884.9372507 --> 01:52:29,444.9372507 It's to, you know, prove his case and, and people need to debate and discuss those answers.

1426 01:52:29,804.9372507 --> 01:52:31,874.9372507 Yeah, and they've, I've never heard it pushed ever.

1427 01:52:31,874.9372507 --> 01:52:41,864.9372507 I've never once heard any of these people be like, okay, well you said this, but okay, what do you mean?

Like what?

You said this here, but like this is what you're saying when you're on the stand.

1428 01:52:41,864.9372507 --> 01:52:44,114.9372507 So which one is it?

We know which one it is.

1429 01:52:44,144.9372507 --> 01:52:52,394.9372507 Okay, so why are you saying this then?

Like why does the CDC website say this when it's not proven like that?

That needs to be out in the open so it can be changed, I think.

1430 01:52:53,54.9372507 --> 01:52:54,434.9372507 Yeah, I agree with you.

1431 01:52:55,364.9372507 --> 01:53:07,4.9372507 Oh my gosh, I have really enjoyed this conversation and I have just one last question and it is about a brand new vaccine and it's because I keep getting a bunch of questions about it and I don't know how to direct people and I don't know how to support people other than like.

1432 01:53:07,784.9372507 --> 01:53:11,834.9372507 You know, look into it, here are the inserts, and ask your pediatrician about it.

1433 01:53:11,834.9372507 --> 01:53:16,94.9372507 Which most people are like, I did ask my pediatrician and they didn't give me an answer that I wanted to hear.

1434 01:53:16,94.9372507 --> 01:53:21,644.9372507 They, they refuse to actually have a conversation with me that is about the new RSV vaccine.

1435 01:53:21,644.9372507 --> 01:53:22,634.9372507 So it's brand new.

1436 01:53:22,634.9372507 --> 01:53:24,644.9372507 We've got a lot of skepticism around it.

1437 01:53:24,874.9372507 --> 01:53:27,4.9372507 Rightfully so, right?

It's new.

1438 01:53:27,4.9372507 --> 01:53:34,54.9372507 We now kind of have a better understanding as a society about the lack of research that goes into vaccines.

1439 01:53:34,54.9372507 --> 01:53:38,994.9372507 And I think a lot of people are really skeptical about how fast it hit the market.

1440 01:53:38,994.9372507 --> 01:54:00,834.9372507 And they're saying that it is safe in pregnant people, although we've never truly studied it because, you know, again, and we've got this question of ethics there, what do we need to know about the RSV vaccine since we are headed into sick season?

And this is something that obviously all families are kind of having this discussion with their healthcare team, whether you're pregnant or you have a new baby.

1441 01:54:01,554.9372507 --> 01:54:01,704.9372507 Yeah.

1442 01:54:01,704.9372507 --> 01:54:03,174.9372507 RSV is interesting because.

1443 01:54:03,654.9372507 --> 01:54:12,294.9372507 Of the diseases that you see as a pediatrician, if you're seeing something bad, it is often RSV, like RSV does actually cause a good chunk of serious disease.

1444 01:54:12,294.9372507 --> 01:54:17,184.9372507 And when you're working in the hospital, you see a lot of kids with severe respiratory issues from RSV.

1445 01:54:17,544.9372507 --> 01:54:23,694.9372507 But you have to understand that into perspective of how many kids get RSV.

1446 01:54:23,904.9372507 --> 01:54:25,764.9372507 Basically every kid gets RSV before they're two.

1447 01:54:26,364.9372507 --> 01:54:30,834.9372507 Almost all kids are fine, right?

So most kids have a cold, it's maybe not a great cold, but they're okay.

1448 01:54:30,834.9372507 --> 01:54:35,484.9372507 But if a kid gets really sick with a respiratory disease, it is often RSV.

1449 01:54:35,484.9372507 --> 01:54:36,354.9372507 So you do see it.

1450 01:54:36,354.9372507 --> 01:54:37,434.9372507 There are a lot of cases there.

1451 01:54:37,464.9372507 --> 01:54:40,794.9372507 There aren't too many deaths from RSV, it's, it's on the lower end for deaths.

1452 01:54:40,794.9372507 --> 01:54:47,514.9372507 But there certainly are a lot of kids that go to the hospital, uh, every year for RS V and need, need extra support and oxygen, uh, to get over it.

1453 01:54:47,514.9372507 --> 01:54:48,654.9372507 'cause it inflames the lungs.

1454 01:54:48,654.9372507 --> 01:54:49,884.9372507 And that's really the big issue with it.

1455 01:54:51,204.9372507 --> 01:54:54,564.9372507 So if you were to give a newborn vaccine.

1456 01:54:54,624.9372507 --> 01:54:58,974.9372507 RSV is one of the ones that you would consider and would make a lot of sense.

1457 01:54:59,274.9372507 --> 01:55:07,24.9372507 I would say in terms of all the vaccines that we have, it's certainly way up there in terms of the disease which you actually see and actually could be deadly or severe.

1458 01:55:07,234.9372507 --> 01:55:12,574.9372507 So I, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider having an RSV vaccine if it worked really well.

1459 01:55:13,364.9372507 --> 01:55:17,864.9372507 I think that you have to realize that R RSV is not a vaccine in the classic sense.

1460 01:55:17,864.9372507 --> 01:55:19,4.9372507 It's, it's an immunization.

1461 01:55:19,4.9372507 --> 01:55:23,834.9372507 It's you're giving antibodies, you're not actually, you're not actually vaccinating them.

1462 01:55:23,834.9372507 --> 01:55:29,264.9372507 So a vaccine, by definition, you're supposed to be stimulating the body to create an immune response.

1463 01:55:29,264.9372507 --> 01:55:30,524.9372507 That way you can protect in the future.

1464 01:55:30,794.9372507 --> 01:55:32,274.9372507 You're not doing that with RSV.

1465 01:55:32,274.9372507 --> 01:55:33,674.9372507 RSV, you're giving them the antibodies.

1466 01:55:33,674.9372507 --> 01:55:35,204.9372507 It's passive, it's like breast milk, basically.

1467 01:55:35,204.9372507 --> 01:55:41,394.9372507 You're giving them basically a medication and it gives you the antibodies that circular on your body for a couple months, and that protects you.

1468 01:55:41,394.9372507 --> 01:55:50,34.9372507 So if you do get RSV, then you have those antibodies in your system, which is why it only works for a couple of months, uh, as opposed to a vaccine, which theoretically, you know, it's supposed to last for life or last, you know.

1469 01:55:50,604.9372507 --> 01:55:51,864.9372507 Ideally if, if you're getting it.

1470 01:55:51,864.9372507 --> 01:55:57,714.9372507 So it is, it is not a vaccine, it's a immunization, but it's, it's kind of lumped under it because it's, similar and it's injected.

1471 01:55:58,134.9372507 --> 01:55:59,754.9372507 Um, so most people think of it in that way.

1472 01:56:00,234.9372507 --> 01:56:05,574.9372507 It's from what we've seen thus far, and again, it's like, this is data from the companies, but it's pretty effective.

1473 01:56:05,574.9372507 --> 01:56:10,134.9372507 It's not like super duper effective, but it, you know, 70, 90% reduction in, in hospitalization.

1474 01:56:10,134.9372507 --> 01:56:10,764.9372507 So it's pretty good.

1475 01:56:11,74.9372507 --> 01:56:16,684.9372507 Again, there's not that many deaths, so it doesn't really reduce death all that much because there isn't much death to begin with.

1476 01:56:16,684.9372507 --> 01:56:23,614.9372507 So in the trials it doesn't really reduce death because there aren't like a lot of kids dying of RSV, but that's not the only issue that we, we deal with with RSV.

1477 01:56:23,614.9372507 --> 01:56:25,804.9372507 So that's just something to, to understand The long-term risk.

1478 01:56:25,834.9372507 --> 01:56:27,844.9372507 We haven't seen much in the way of, of long-term risk.

1479 01:56:27,844.9372507 --> 01:56:33,94.9372507 It doesn't, again, it's more like a medication, so it seems a little safer in, in theory.

1480 01:56:33,574.9372507 --> 01:56:43,204.9372507 But it hasn't been long enough to really know and, and certainly like, yeah, we have no idea 'cause it's just in the soup of getting all these other vaccines that we kind of have no idea how that's, it's affecting you long-term.

1481 01:56:43,514.9372507 --> 01:56:43,784.9372507 But.

1482 01:56:43,839.9372507 --> 01:56:50,559.9372507 I was also very skeptical, still am just given the timing of when it came out and they were always trying to get an RSV vaccine and they never did.

1483 01:56:50,559.9372507 --> 01:56:53,619.9372507 And then it kind of came out on the heels of COVID when everyone was worried about diseases.

1484 01:56:53,619.9372507 --> 01:56:55,419.9372507 And so they were like, oh, let's get this out now.

1485 01:56:55,719.9372507 --> 01:57:01,629.9372507 Um, and, and the trial data was fine, but not like Amazing, not robust.

1486 01:57:01,629.9372507 --> 01:57:01,959.9372507 Yeah.

1487 01:57:02,194.9372507 --> 01:57:05,959.9372507 And, and it wasn't like this is a super good vaccine that's like really reducing your risk.

1488 01:57:05,959.9372507 --> 01:57:12,949.9372507 And, and again, like the risk, like absolute risk of serious disease is very low considering basically every kid gets RSV by how many kids are in the hospital.

1489 01:57:12,949.9372507 --> 01:57:13,519.9372507 It's not many.

1490 01:57:13,519.9372507 --> 01:57:18,739.9372507 So you're talking millions and millions of kids get RSV, A few go to the hospital, you know, very small amount will die.

1491 01:57:19,109.9372507 --> 01:57:24,549.9372507 So it's a real benefit but not a huge benefit from severe disease.

1492 01:57:25,269.9372507 --> 01:57:28,329.9372507 So that's just something you have to weigh with, with a new, a new vaccine.

1493 01:57:28,329.9372507 --> 01:57:39,9.9372507 And, and also if you're getting it during pregnancy, you have to weigh, preterm birth which is really the main concern around, the RSV vaccines and has always been, and most of the trials that looked at RSV.

1494 01:57:39,534.9372507 --> 01:57:42,204.9372507 Vaccines had major concerns around preterm birth.

1495 01:57:42,234.9372507 --> 01:57:42,294.9372507 Wow.

1496 01:57:42,504.9372507 --> 01:57:44,94.9372507 And that's why it was never hit the market.

1497 01:57:44,124.9372507 --> 01:57:53,614.9372507 And then even in the studies that they found with the ones that are on the market, they still found signals, but just wasn't bad enough, I guess, to be a full concern.

1498 01:57:53,984.9372507 --> 01:57:56,54.9372507 And the same thing with the new one that hit the market from Merck.

1499 01:57:56,384.9372507 --> 01:58:01,34.9372507 You know, there was a whole big thing from Robert Malone and, and ACIP because they, they, they just started on asip.

1500 01:58:01,154.9372507 --> 01:58:04,404.9372507 They were just presented this new, Merck version of the RV vaccine.

1501 01:58:04,404.9372507 --> 01:58:05,514.9372507 It was shown to them to be safe.

1502 01:58:05,514.9372507 --> 01:58:11,694.9372507 So they voted it in and then like a few weeks later, they like did their, had more time to do more research and they looked into it and like, oh, you didn't show us all the data.

1503 01:58:11,904.9372507 --> 01:58:13,824.9372507 You combine these things, it looks like it's more of a risk.

1504 01:58:13,824.9372507 --> 01:58:13,914.9372507 It.

1505 01:58:13,914.9372507 --> 01:58:16,914.9372507 And so it's really very, I don't know.

1506 01:58:16,914.9372507 --> 01:58:18,354.9372507 It's very interesting to kind of go through that.

1507 01:58:18,354.9372507 --> 01:58:20,334.9372507 But again, like the RSV vaccine, I think works.

1508 01:58:20,664.9372507 --> 01:58:21,594.9372507 I think it does protect you.

1509 01:58:21,594.9372507 --> 01:58:23,154.9372507 I think RSV can be very severe.

1510 01:58:23,154.9372507 --> 01:58:26,784.9372507 I think of the things you get when you're a newborn, it's right up there amongst vitamin K.

1511 01:58:26,784.9372507 --> 01:58:28,134.9372507 I think it's more important than Hep B.

1512 01:58:28,584.9372507 --> 01:58:28,674.9372507 Okay.

1513 01:58:28,674.9372507 --> 01:58:32,934.9372507 Um, if you're, you're weighing the two, I think Hep B, unless your mom has Hep B, the risk is low.

1514 01:58:33,679.9372507 --> 01:58:37,349.9372507 But to do a new vaccine, I think it's always good to be skeptical.

1515 01:58:37,629.9372507 --> 01:58:47,349.9372507 If you want, you have to decide if you want, how long you wanna wait, how much data do you want, and are we gonna ever get the data that you would want to make that decision?

Not super easy to me.

1516 01:58:48,189.9372507 --> 01:58:50,49.9372507 I would probably not get it during pregnancy.

1517 01:58:50,49.9372507 --> 01:58:59,479.9372507 This, me personally, I would give it to the baby, but, I just think doing things during pregnancy is, is so complicated and the research is so nuanced and oftentimes not really done as well.

1518 01:58:59,479.9372507 --> 01:59:02,389.9372507 So I, I, if I was gonna choose between the two, that's what I would choose, but I don't know.

1519 01:59:02,389.9372507 --> 01:59:05,569.9372507 I think it's a really tough decision and I think still most people don't do it.

1520 01:59:05,909.9372507 --> 01:59:08,609.9372507 But a lot of people are doing it because RSV is severe.

1521 01:59:08,609.9372507 --> 01:59:20,259.9372507 So yeah, there it's, it's not simple, but I, I would say of the things that you can get when you're young, vitamin K can be really helpful and RSV could certainly be really helpful, whereas Hep b, unless you have Hep B, is not doing anything.

1522 01:59:20,679.9372507 --> 01:59:24,99.9372507 If you're weighing between those, like I would pick RSV over hep B personally.

1523 01:59:24,399.9372507 --> 01:59:24,939.9372507 Must have Hep B.

1524 01:59:25,509.9372507 --> 01:59:25,989.9372507 Yeah.

1525 01:59:26,349.9372507 --> 01:59:33,999.9372507 And then if your child does get RSV and your hospitalized, what does that medical treatment look like?

Mostly there's not that much to do.

1526 01:59:34,204.9372507 --> 01:59:35,769.9372507 So you mostly would be getting oxygen.

1527 01:59:35,769.9372507 --> 01:59:38,29.9372507 So it's supporting their in general.

1528 01:59:38,29.9372507 --> 01:59:46,309.9372507 I mean, if you have a pneumonia, you might get antibiotics, it may be steroids if you're having a lot of lung inflammation and, um, that, yeah, that, that's kind of the main thing.

1529 01:59:46,309.9372507 --> 01:59:49,459.9372507 So usually it's more supportive because it's a virus, so there's not a lot you could do.

1530 01:59:49,459.9372507 --> 01:59:52,849.9372507 You could give antivirals, but not really for RSV, so it's usually just more supportive.

1531 01:59:53,359.9372507 --> 01:59:53,419.9372507 Okay.

1532 01:59:54,244.9372507 --> 02:00:00,784.9372507 But yeah, I mean, like, worst case scenario on like a respirator and you need a tube in your throat and you're breathing, but that's like the worst case scenario.

1533 02:00:00,784.9372507 --> 02:00:02,494.9372507 Most kids, it's just they need a little extra support.

1534 02:00:02,824.9372507 --> 02:00:04,24.9372507 But it also depends how young you are.

1535 02:00:04,24.9372507 --> 02:00:06,424.9372507 Like the concern really for the most part is the really young baby.

1536 02:00:06,424.9372507 --> 02:00:11,224.9372507 So if a baby gets RSV like the first month or two months, then then that's a pretty high risk.

1537 02:00:11,224.9372507 --> 02:00:16,114.9372507 They're gonna have severe disease versus if you're, you know, one and a half or two, it's possible, but just not that likely.

1538 02:00:16,774.9372507 --> 02:00:22,624.9372507 And when is it recommended to give an RSV vaccine to a newborn?

Right away, really at birth.

1539 02:00:23,734.9372507 --> 02:00:25,534.9372507 So it's, it's another one you can get in the first couple days.

1540 02:00:25,954.9372507 --> 02:00:26,434.9372507 Okay.

1541 02:00:26,854.9372507 --> 02:00:27,484.9372507 All right.

1542 02:00:27,634.9372507 --> 02:00:34,174.9372507 So the, the recommendations for RSV are anytime in the first eight months during RSV season.

1543 02:00:34,174.9372507 --> 02:00:36,604.9372507 So you starting in October Okay.

1544 02:00:36,604.9372507 --> 02:00:38,44.9372507 Until March or whatever.

1545 02:00:38,334.9372507 --> 02:00:47,794.9372507 So if you're born in that time, you could get in the hospital, you can get it your first visit with the pediatrician or if you were born before, but then it enter to RSV season.

1546 02:00:47,794.9372507 --> 02:00:49,144.9372507 So let's say you were born in, I don't know.

1547 02:00:49,579.9372507 --> 02:00:54,679.9372507 June, you could get it in October for the first year if you're younger than eight months, unless you have severe comp.

1548 02:00:54,679.9372507 --> 02:01:00,979.9372507 So if you have like lung issues, lung concerns, you could, you could still get it after eight months, but generally for a healthy kid you don't need it after eight months.

1549 02:01:01,369.9372507 --> 02:01:01,819.9372507 Got it.

1550 02:01:02,119.9372507 --> 02:01:02,569.9372507 Got it.

1551 02:01:03,169.9372507 --> 02:01:04,399.9372507 Oh my gosh, Dr.

1552 02:01:04,399.9372507 --> 02:01:07,519.9372507 Joel, you have no idea how much I enjoy our conversations.

1553 02:01:07,519.9372507 --> 02:01:11,779.9372507 Not only is it like so stimulating for my brain, but I feel very safe with you.

1554 02:01:11,779.9372507 --> 02:01:23,659.9372507 I love the way that we are able to kind of mentally spar and I love the way that we're able to sit in that discomfort and have these conversations that I think so many people are really longing for.

1555 02:01:23,659.9372507 --> 02:01:37,489.9372507 And I just, I want, I know I said this in the last episode that I had you, but I just wanna say thank you so much and I just wanna share my gratitude for you always being so transparent and being willing to go there on the topics that a lot of people just aren't willing to go there.

1556 02:01:37,489.9372507 --> 02:01:37,849.9372507 And.

1557 02:01:38,479.9372507 --> 02:01:44,519.9372507 These are the conversations that I think are gonna bridge the gap between healthcare and, and our nation again.

1558 02:01:44,519.9372507 --> 02:01:46,709.9372507 And so, um, I know that that's your goal.

1559 02:01:46,709.9372507 --> 02:01:47,639.9372507 That's my goal.

1560 02:01:48,59.9372507 --> 02:01:53,339.9372507 Um, I, I really, I want families to be able to have a trusted relationship with their healthcare providers.

1561 02:01:53,339.9372507 --> 02:01:56,999.9372507 And I think right now we're just in a really bad space and I'm hoping to mend some of that.

1562 02:01:56,999.9372507 --> 02:01:59,189.9372507 But it's gonna take work on both sides.

1563 02:01:59,189.9372507 --> 02:02:02,819.9372507 And I really appreciate you and, you know, during this conversation, I'm.

1564 02:02:03,389.9372507 --> 02:02:12,779.9372507 Had this, like, that's so Raven moment where I kind of envisioned you and I and a couple other people sitting on a committee for the White House.

1565 02:02:12,779.9372507 --> 02:02:22,559.9372507 And, and we're able to have these respectful conversations and really move the needle forward when it comes to public health in our nation in a really respectful way.

1566 02:02:22,559.9372507 --> 02:02:33,359.9372507 But one that is challenging of the system to say, we're not trying to take you down and we're not interested in punitive measures, but we just want a healthier nation and safer alternatives.

1567 02:02:33,359.9372507 --> 02:02:40,529.9372507 And we want to have a conversation that you have shied away from for so long, and we wanna meet you where you're at and have this conversation.

1568 02:02:40,529.9372507 --> 02:02:42,329.9372507 So that's my dream world.

1569 02:02:42,329.9372507 --> 02:02:49,739.9372507 Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanna leave our community with today?

I mean, I'd just say congratulations, you know.

1570 02:02:50,99.9372507 --> 02:02:50,669.9372507 Oh, thank you.

1571 02:02:51,509.9372507 --> 02:02:56,464.9372507 We didn't mention that, but you, we, we got right off topic to vaccines, but, uh, thank you for having me on.

1572 02:02:56,464.9372507 --> 02:03:01,919.9372507 And, uh, I mean, this is why I reached out because I, I listened and I was like, oh, this is, you had really good conversations and it was really, thank you.

1573 02:03:02,539.9372507 --> 02:03:05,479.9372507 One of the better things I've heard in vaccines.

1574 02:03:05,479.9372507 --> 02:03:10,519.9372507 I mean, there's just not, no, no one's really done what you've done and, and venturing, even just talking to Dr.

1575 02:03:10,519.9372507 --> 02:03:13,119.9372507 Patel, I mean, he's, it's not like it's, it's not crazy.

1576 02:03:13,119.9372507 --> 02:03:14,259.9372507 It's like he's such a nice guy, you know?

Yeah.

1577 02:03:14,259.9372507 --> 02:03:14,859.9372507 He's so smart.

1578 02:03:14,949.9372507 --> 02:03:25,609.9372507 It's like there's no reason why, you couldn't have conversations and we couldn't have these kind of conversations and we should, and you know, I'm hoping that the more of these that we have, the more it's gonna trickle into mainstream.

1579 02:03:25,609.9372507 --> 02:03:30,439.9372507 The more times I can talk to, you know, air quotes mainstream doctors, which has started to happen and Yep.

1580 02:03:30,439.9372507 --> 02:03:34,9.9372507 Nobody's gotten in a fight and no, they haven't been yelling and we've been totally fine.

1581 02:03:34,9.9372507 --> 02:03:34,909.9372507 And it's been, this is fine.

1582 02:03:34,909.9372507 --> 02:03:35,959.9372507 Like, I don't have, it's fine.

1583 02:03:35,989.9372507 --> 02:03:36,469.9372507 We could do it.

1584 02:03:36,469.9372507 --> 02:03:38,899.9372507 Like, I'm happy to talk debate with anybody on vaccines.

1585 02:03:38,899.9372507 --> 02:03:41,719.9372507 'cause I don't care what the outcome is like, it's just to talk.

1586 02:03:41,719.9372507 --> 02:03:41,779.9372507 Yeah.

1587 02:03:42,259.9372507 --> 02:03:48,169.9372507 But I hope that some of those individuals will have those discussions and will sit down at the White House and I agree with you.

1588 02:03:48,169.9372507 --> 02:03:54,729.9372507 Like that is the ultimate, or, or, you know, on Joe Rogan or on, on whatever platform they want to do it or, or you know, Huberman or whatever.

1589 02:03:54,729.9372507 --> 02:03:58,779.9372507 Like somebody needs to like, take the reins and like get some people on that wanna debate.

1590 02:03:59,424.9372507 --> 02:04:03,204.9372507 And do it respectfully, but it has to be on like a big stage where people can watch it.

1591 02:04:03,204.9372507 --> 02:04:06,564.9372507 But those, the individuals that are very pro-vaccine seem to never wanna do it.

1592 02:04:06,994.9372507 --> 02:04:09,664.9372507 And I hope that they will be you willing to do it in the future.

1593 02:04:09,934.9372507 --> 02:04:12,784.9372507 And I think that will move the needle.

1594 02:04:12,784.9372507 --> 02:04:20,164.9372507 And, and I hope that the more of these conversations that are listened to, the more that people are like, well, yeah, we could have a conversation, we could do it.

1595 02:04:20,164.9372507 --> 02:04:22,24.9372507 It doesn't, it doesn't have to end the world.

1596 02:04:22,24.9372507 --> 02:04:24,994.9372507 Like, it's okay, it's just a vaccine, it's not a religion.

1597 02:04:25,24.9372507 --> 02:04:27,164.9372507 Even though, you know, that's, that's why Aaron Siri's book is so good.

1598 02:04:27,164.9372507 --> 02:04:29,404.9372507 You know, it's not a religion it's just a radical product.

1599 02:04:29,884.9372507 --> 02:04:30,524.9372507 And, uh.

1600 02:04:31,314.9372507 --> 02:04:31,594.9372507 I dunno.

1601 02:04:31,594.9372507 --> 02:04:32,294.9372507 We're all on the same team.

1602 02:04:32,294.9372507 --> 02:04:33,424.9372507 So anyways, thank you for doing it.

1603 02:04:33,424.9372507 --> 02:04:34,54.9372507 That's why I reached out.

1604 02:04:34,54.9372507 --> 02:04:35,824.9372507 I thought it was gonna be good, and it was, this was super good.

1605 02:04:36,4.9372507 --> 02:04:37,774.9372507 This was great conversation.

1606 02:04:37,774.9372507 --> 02:04:40,414.9372507 So I, I appreciate that and, and thank you for having me on again.

1607 02:04:40,654.9372507 --> 02:04:41,674.9372507 Yeah, absolutely.

1608 02:04:41,674.9372507 --> 02:04:44,134.9372507 You're welcome back on the show anytime.

1609 02:04:44,184.9372507 --> 02:04:44,664.9372507 All right, Dr.

1610 02:04:44,664.9372507 --> 02:04:53,169.9372507 Joel, before we leave, can you tell us a little bit about your book and where people can find you, where they can connect with you and how people can learn more from you?

Sure.

1611 02:04:53,169.9372507 --> 02:04:55,749.9372507 So you can find me on Instagram or X at Dr.

1612 02:04:55,749.9372507 --> 02:04:59,109.9372507 Joel Gator, or the book is between a shot and a hard place.

1613 02:04:59,109.9372507 --> 02:05:03,159.9372507 You can get it, you know, Amazon, all the normal places, or the shot book.com 1614 02:05:03,699.9372507 --> 02:05:05,499.9372507 or if you want on Substack.

1615 02:05:05,529.9372507 --> 02:05:10,169.9372507 That's been a lot of fun on Substack chatting about vaccines and it's doing great and a lot of people love it.

1616 02:05:10,169.9372507 --> 02:05:11,969.9372507 So it's pretty surprising to see how much that's grown.

1617 02:05:11,969.9372507 --> 02:05:15,39.9372507 It's been like the number one many times on health, which is cool.

1618 02:05:15,39.9372507 --> 02:05:26,79.9372507 So on Substack it's also called Between a Shot and a Hard Place if you want to, uh, dive into the controversial topics that you can have on Substack but not always on mainstream media, though you can have it here now, which is good.

1619 02:05:26,439.9372507 --> 02:05:26,739.9372507 Yeah.

1620 02:05:27,899.9372507 --> 02:05:30,929.9372507 All right you guys, I will see you in the next episode.

1621 02:05:31,229.9372507 --> 02:05:32,699.9372507 Be sure to follow Dr.

1622 02:05:32,699.9372507 --> 02:05:38,339.9372507 Joel on social media and you can find me at Tranquility by HeHe and at the birth lounge.

1623 02:05:38,459.9372507 --> 02:05:47,39.9372507 Until next time, head to your app store and download the birth on app for evidence-based childbirth education and data-driven postpartum support delivered straight to your phone.

1624 02:05:47,369.9372507 --> 02:05:48,29.9372507 Bye.

1625 02:05:48,639.9372507 --> 02:05:50,259.9372507 Thank you so much for tuning in today.

1626 02:05:50,259.9372507 --> 02:05:55,539.9372507 I love hanging out with you, and it is an honor to be your go-to gal when it comes to preparing for your baby.

1627 02:05:55,749.9372507 --> 02:06:02,349.9372507 If you've enjoyed today's episode, please leave a five star review and tell others why they should be listening to the Birth Launch podcast too.

1628 02:06:02,709.9372507 --> 02:06:12,399.9372507 You deserve to have a birth that you love with a provider that values your autonomy and respects form consent without all the trauma that you so commonly hear about on social media.

1629 02:06:12,639.9372507 --> 02:06:15,219.9372507 New episodes, air every Wednesday and Friday.

1630 02:06:15,294.9372507 --> 02:06:17,814.9372507 Hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.

1631 02:06:17,904.9372507 --> 02:06:20,724.9372507 I'm Hei and this is the Birth Launch podcast.