Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are you a Charlotte?

Everyone welcome.

We have the amazing Tamara Toney joining us.

She plays one of Charlotte's power lesbians, and you will know her from Law and Order Special Victims Unit.

She played the medical examiner and she did two hundred and thirty episodes.

Wow.

She's also been on Broadway.

She's a director, actor, an incredible person.

Such a joy to have you.

How are you doing.

I'm fantastic and thank you for having me?

And yes, pleasure.

I love that episode and I just love saying power lesbian.

I know right, It's fun, isn't it.

It's fun.

It gives you a whole sense of like why Charlotte was interested in trying to pretend to be one?

You know?

Yes, still feels that way today.

I love your hair.

Can I just say thank you?

Yes?

Incredible.

I appreciate it.

It's its natural state color and curl.

And I'm just happy that I put away the die bottles and going on naturrel.

I dream of that.

Someday.

Someday I will do it as well.

Are you still playing that same character on all of those SUV and whatnot?

Law and Order.

No, no, no, no.

I haven't done Law and Order for a few years now.

A couple of years now, I did twenty three.

Seasons unbelievable, I mean as the same character, correct.

As the same character.

But however the past two years I did pop over into Chris Maloney's version of SBU Organized Crime as Melinda Warner with my natural hair color.

Yes, that's amazing.

I mean, how wonderful and rare and what a joy that you've gotten to span all of those different iterations.

Of Absolutely, I mean, and it's not unlike your show in that it's the gift that keeps on giving, and I am very very grateful for that.

Absolutely, Absolutely, I love that.

I love the You're kind of just the quintessential New York actor, where you know, you've had these incredible opportunities on these incredibly New York shows.

Absolutely, And the beauty of being in New York also is while I was doing Law and Order as THEU, I was also doing As the World Turns Back in the Day and at one point appearing on Broadway and Julius Caesar all at the same time, and only in New York City can an actor do that.

Incredible wow.

I mean, it's just a that's just like a dream.

It is.

It is it's a pinch yourself moment, you know.

Well, I do know, I absolutely know.

And that's one of the things that we have loved so much about doing our show in New York.

Not only is New York a character, as everyone always mentioned, but you have access to these incredible actors, and especially in the beginning of the show, you know, it was another show added because there were the soaps, the old, old fashioned, old standing soaps.

Then there was a phase like in the late eighties nineties of sitcoms.

You remember there was like Michael J.

Fox to say yes Cosby of course you know previously, but that was kind of would come and go.

And I don't feel like sitcoms lasted.

They were.

They moved more to Los Angeles for a while, and then of course Law and Order started, which started you know, many versions and SVU, you know, so many versions and so many actors employed there, which was wonderful.

But we were a comedy that got to come in single camera comedy as opposed to the sitcom.

But the level of actor who's available to come onto the show was so high, you know, so impressive.

Absolutely.

I mean, come on, it's New York City.

It's the cream of the.

Crop, right, and you know those shows like Sex and the City, like Michael J.

Fox's shows, and even the soap opera.

I mean, most of us in New York City.

Come for theater, and you know, theater just doesn't afford you the opportunity to you know, pay for your lifestyle in New York City.

Right, So then all the film and television, of course was I always considered it like the subsidy in order for me to do my theater.

Absolutely, absolutely, and such a dream for any actor.

Absolutely, yeah, no question.

What do you remember before we actually recap the episode, what do you remember about coming on the show?

Like, had you seen the show?

Did you know the show at the time that you came on?

Okay, of course, who didn't know the show?

Right?

Well, because it was early days.

It was early day.

Season season two, right, it was season two, and yes, and so of course you know the show was a juggernaut, and you know, everybody loved the show and everybody knew about the show.

And I just remember remember, you know, coming to read for the role.

I remember it distinctly, coming to read for the role and sitting outside the casting office and Sarah Jessica kind of coming through to go on her way somewhere, you know, and how she stopped and said hello to me and to whatever other actor was out there with me.

There weren't a lot of us hanging up, you know, but you know, she.

Stopped and said hello, you know what I mean.

And I just thought, yeah, that's classy, you know, nice and you know, and that's what I do.

So I love that that's what she would do.

So that was that was my first encounter, right.

So then you know, coming onto the set and then meeting you, and the first scene was in that art arts gallery and you know that was on location somewhere down and soho right as I recall, and then meeting you and you with your charming sweet self you know who you know, just like Charlotte is just a deer.

Yeah, and you were so warm and welcoming and you know, we just had such a great time shooting it.

So and then you know, I.

Just loved the I just loved the reveal of the power lesbians right and under, you know, underlined by your voiceover when you wear our backs are looking at some artwork and then we turn and we so good.

Yeah, but you know, it was incredible.

It's good, it was so good.

I had forgotten that part.

I remember the episode for for a few obviously very odd reasons.

One is that I got to wear flat shoes, which was like so exciting, okay, a loafers loafers, which I still have, Okay, and I was just like beyond excited, and Pat let me wear pants.

But that was also very unusual.

So I was having just the most relaxed and best time hanging with the ladies.

And then I loved the idea of the story.

And I think that, you know, people think of Charlotte, especially in the beginning, as being this prude, and I of course understand why compared to some of the other characters.

But at the same time, she's so open, you know, and she's really wants to, Like she says numerous times during the episode, it's just so great to be surrounded by this energy and not have to be worrying about men.

Yes, okay, I love that so much, and I personally feel the same way.

Absolutely, And I'm sure so many people can identify with that, you know, so many women can identify it with that it's just a different vibe being around women, especially just.

All women, you know.

Yeah, so yeah, so it was really cool and not concerned about men or talking about men.

You know, I'm sure it was very refreshing.

For sure, it was great.

And then it's just kind of so sad when the super super powerful okay Cawa lesbian asks her if she eats you know what, and she was like no, and she goes, well, you know, then you're never going to get to what does she say, You're never going to get to come to veil or something like this, which is literally like you can't hang with us, you know what I mean?

I mean, are we allowed to quote what you can?

You can't.

I am Charlotte.

So it's hard for me to say you can't say whatever you want tomorrow.

Because it was a total drop the mic line, I mean, and it was out of nowhere and it like cut to the chase and she said basically because Charlotte, Charlotte was saying, oh, you know, I just love being a wild woman and it would be so great to come and hang out with you on fail and you know, et cetera, et cetera, And basically she said, listen if you don't eat pea, you're not a dyke, and what.

That's right, that's right, that's right.

I love that you can't say either.

It's so exciting to me, I know, because you think you can, and I know that this is also how it is when you're acting right, Like so many times I would have some crazy line to Charlotte when she's like trying to say something to the girls that has happened, and I would just.

Be I know, you get that little stutter.

Yeah, twenty five years later, it's still true.

And I had Meghan d Stellion on and she doesn't say the pe word right, And I was like, well, you have a whole song, and she said, but that's when I'm rapping.

It's like a different personality.

It's a persona.

That's right.

That's interesting.

Isn't that funny?

Because if I were the character, I would so easily it would just flow off my tongue.

But of course, right right now myself was.

Like, I know, me too, me too, me too, which is why it's great that I play Charlotte.

But I mean, it is funny.

It is interesting and funny.

And someone said to me.

I went on another podcast.

We were talking about my podcast and Rewatching, And one of the reasons that I wanted to rewatch is to see what was still true in terms of the themes and the storylines.

Was still true in twenty twenty five versus when we did it in nineteen ninety seven onward.

And a lot of things are still true.

And occasionally there's things that we got wrong or that aren't true anymore or whatever, right, but there's so many things that are still true.

And one of the things that someone said to me was, you know, thank goodness that the show came along and freed women to speak more freely, and don't you think that that's why women can speak more freely now?

And what I said was, I do.

I do think that.

Obviously we were a cultural thing.

I get that, but I also feel in my gut that you know, those old rules were ready to fall, yeah, and we were just at the right time, you know, we were like speaking something that was already kind of happening.

Yes, I agree, I totally agree, or.

It wouldn't have been such a big, you know thing, Like I think it was a timing.

And that's totally ridiculous, you know.

Because if the social climate wasn't right at that time, you all wouldn't have been able to get away with what you were able to get away with.

Right, totally, yes, yeah, I mean I do.

So, yeah, I totally agree with you, absolutely.

And I do think it's interesting that still here you and I are many years later can't say the P word.

That's just because that's how my mama raised me.

I mean, yes, my mom would be like shocked, you know, which was a stress in the beginning of the show, because she'd be like, oh am, I gonna like this week and I'd be like, yeah, no, mom, don't watch it right.

Right right, you know.

But at the same time, my mother would tell you I cussed like a sailor.

So you know, we all there, we all live in complexity.

Yeah, well put, well put.

I also think it's you know, what you're comfortable with, Like some things you might be comfortable within, some things you might not be in.

That's as it should be, right.

Yes, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

All right, that was fun.

That was kind of fun.

I like that.

All right, let's dive in.

Let's dive in.

Okay, So this episode is called The Cheating Curve and it is directed I believe it's the first episode directed by John David Coles, who ended up doing I want to say five or six.

Maybe you guys could look that up for me.

He did a number of episodes and he was a really fun director.

I don't know if you remember him so well.

I do remember him.

He was wonderful.

Yeah, and he does that incredible thing.

I had forgotten that the show begins with the power lesbians, which I love so much, and the scene that you were talking about the reveal, where you know, you see this empty gallery and it looks a lot like the gallery we're using in and just like that, but I can't imagine that it is, but it looks very similar, and the gallery is filling up with art and filling up with people slowly.

And so just because giving the voice over about Charlotte, you know, doing a art opening, and that this particular art opening surpasses a regular you know, wine and cheese cracker thing because it is a lesbian artist and the power lesbians are there, at which point you guys turn into camera and as you said, strutforward and it's just so powerful and fantastic.

Yes, yes it was.

It was amazing, And you know what, I also loved because I'm a director as well.

And what I really loved is, as you said at the top, it was an empty gallery and the way it was peopled where people just started appearing.

First there was one person, then there was set five person, then there was more.

And it wasn't like they walked in the room, you know.

It was like the magic of yes of filmmaking.

Yeah, where they just magically appeared.

It was cool, it was really hot.

It's interesting because this in my mind, our first season, nothing had aired right, so we were just kind of working in a vacuum.

We didn't really know what we were doing exactly.

We had a tiny budget, you know, compared to later on, and we didn't really have such strong directors in a way, like we had a lot of kind of indie film directors.

I remember them being like someone who had the hot movie at Sundance or whatever.

And second season we start to get other HBO directors like Alan Coulter who had been the episode before he came from Sopranos, John David Cole's and here friends.

We started getting kind of more seasoned, not in ass necessarily episodic TV directors either like a kind of cut above you know that HBO was kind of cultivating these relationships with these directors, and they really made a mark each one.

And the way they shot the chefs, you.

Know their style and absolutely and you can see it, you can really.

Definitely, definitely, And I think it's so interesting because we don't always think of or talk about the directors.

We talk about our writers so much because obviously there are also our executive producers and very close to us and we're, you know, intimately involved in all of it.

But our directors also, especially in the beginning, really made a mark and John Davicole is definitely one of them.

And one of the things I love was is out of order.

But when I so, I go out afterwards to the bar and he films through like a keyhole.

He filmed through a p.

And this is that word I can say because it is the proper word for it.

It was like a vagina, right.

Ah way, yes, look at it?

How did I look at it?

And it was like.

I'm so dense and so.

Yeah, and you remember I'm dancing, and I remember him really having some very specific ideas about how I should dance because I was kind of going to do the kind of like Charlotte goofy dance.

But he wanted me to do this kind of slow dreamy dance.

And I feel like he shot it in slow Moe, which was very cool.

And you're such a creative, very creative.

And I remember anytime way back then that we had anything dancing related, even like tangentially dance ish.

Sarah Jessica would get our choreographer to come in because she was so nervous because it was like her Broadway self, right, like she read direction like specifics, right, yes, yes, Oh my god, I'm seeing a picture.

See I'm seeing a picture of what do you think.

I totally see what you're saying.

Oh my god, it's pinkish red too.

I don't know how.

I missed that.

Good lord, good Lord, that's hysterical.

Wow.

Go date John David Coles, really hysterically funny wows.

Sometimes I'm very Charlotte.

That's a very Charlotte moment that I didn't realize that.

I'm sure I was so nervous about the dancing that I just wasn't even like paying attention.

Well, I don't even think we saw it.

I mean I didn't.

I didn't see it.

Until it aired, So I don't even know if you saw what was being shot at that cool.

I feel better.

I feel better, yes, yes, because I was not aware.

I was not aware for sure.

But go him.

You know, that's a great idea.

I love it so much.

It's very brilliant.

Okay, I'm going to get back to my paper and try to rewatch.

Sometimes it's just more fun to talk.

So we were at the art and then oh, then, okay, it's funny because they cut to Miranda, who's everyone's at my art opening.

That's how the show starts, right, And Miranda's with this guy, Ethan Watson, who is a documentarian, and we're just gonna go into some funny places.

And Samanda sees her a guy from her gym there and wants to go pick him up, which she of course successfully picks him up.

And Carrie wants to leave because she's going somewhere she doesn't want to tell us where, and she is going to Bigg's house.

And the thing that I love about this when I rewatched first season, all my listeners know this.

I was kind of horrified by Big because he is so withholding to Carrie and I hadn't remembered any of that Also, it was the nineties and I think we as women were just very used to this, you know, withholding men.

Wasn't like something that we would necessarily think about.

So from twenty twenty five you look back and you're like, oh my gosh.

But what I love about second season is number one, I feel like he's much more out of his shell.

They have broken up, they're kind of slightly getting back together now.

I find it's so charming and much more like in terms of just in the moment with Carrie.

But also I love the voice over here because as she's sneaking out to go back to Biggs, she's saying in her voice over that she doesn't want to tell all of us because she feels bad about it because she knows it's a bad decision because he's a withholding man.

And I'm like, yeah, see, we just need to name it.

And I feel better now that it's just straight out like that's who he is.

Let's just admit that's who he is.

We know this is not smart.

That doesn't mean she's not going to do it.

We all do stupid things.

Well, also, we all you know, it's kind of like if you know, if you know what you're getting into and you choose to get into it.

Then you know that's empowering too, you know what I mean.

Yes, it's because it's like you can always choose not to absolutely.

I think that's why I like that she's naming it like.

It's not like she doesn't know, right, you know, she's saying, I know this is stupid.

I know this man may not be able to give me what I want, but I'm going back because we have this incredible, incredile do connection and I'm so drawn to him.

And whatever she says in her voice over, it's, of course more eloquently said that I just did.

But I had such a sigh of relief.

You know, Yes, I look better now.

Yeah, I can get behind this now.

In a way, that first season I felt a lot of anxiety watching it, you know, but of course I know where it goes, but still in the moment, I was feeling too anxiety.

And let's not let's not forget that Big is incredibly handsome and sexy, so let's just not forget.

That part one and definitely now okay.

I think that was my other issue was when I looked back at the first season, I didn't really feel that because he's so pulled back that I was like, She's she's so giving an emotionally present, and I feel like he's not even sexy to me because he's so covered.

You know, well you know for me, I mean for me, yeah tomorrow, you know, I wouldn't waste my time with that.

Kind of you.

They would waste my time.

Yes, you know, for Carrie, it was what she needed for whatever reason she needed it.

Yes, absolutely absolutely, I think for me at the time, and again complicated by the fact I was playing Charlotte and Charlotte was always pro big So as an actor, you don't really give it a critical thought if your character's not giving in a critical thought, you know.

Absolutely yeah, And you can't judge your character.

You can't judge a character night.

You can't judge a character.

Your character make choices and you figure out as an actor how to support those choices.

But that's right, stand in judgment.

Right, Definitely, not definitely not so.

I did not give any kind of critical thought to the Big Carry relationship.

But I do love in this episode once she does confess to us, Charlotte is like what I was like, Oh yay, yay, I'm so glad because a lot of this I don't remember.

I remember some things, and then some things I have no memory, and I'm really just kind of genuinely getting to rewatch it again, which is so much fun because it's so good.

So then we go back to the gallery and uh oh yes, yes I'm talking about the power lesbians.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and I sell out the gallery, which I have never done in my whole life.

So Charlotte is doing well at her job because of the ladies, which I love so much.

Oh and then I go back to the storage room and find my you know, kind of eh date making out with this young model, which is so ick, but I think that also fuels Charlotte's whole like I don't even want to deal with men around these powerful women.

Exactly makes perfect sense, perfect, perfect sense.

Then we go to the flea market.

This is a scene that I remember so vividly, and yes tell me, and this.

Is the scene that I love.

Oh do you tell me what you love?

Well, this is exactly where I was going because I love the conversation about what is cheating?

Yeah, what I remember about it.

I think it's a fantastically written scene.

I loved every bit of it.

I love everyone's point of view.

But the thing that I remember about and as an actor, this is also John David Coles making his mark.

It's a very scene.

We're at a flea market, We're looking at things we were always trying to be realistic, which is sometimes really hard as an actor.

Then we sit down on the bench and have the more in depth conversation that's begun as we're looking at elements of the flea market, and he is able to shoot that conversation on the bench, which is not easy.

But the hardest part was the flea market part, because I remember it was this very elaborate dance where you know, different ones of us would move forward at different times, and Alan Culture remembers kind of starting this trend with us of like find the lens, which is hard when there's four of you and then extras right very mixed, and you're having to like, oh, yeah, I have to move over here so that I'm ready to lean my head forward when my line is ready, and not slow down, right because Michael Patrick never wanted you to slow down because it kills the comedy, right.

I remember that being like, oh can we do it?

You know, what I'm saying, Like, when I look back, I'm like, oh, we're doing it.

We're doing it, We're doing it, you know.

But it was David Cole is really kind of upping the game of how to block those scenes so that it's not boring.

You know.

And it's a dance.

I mean, it's choreography right at the end of the day, right.

Yes, And so I love.

Then they sit down on the bench and then everyone has an excellent point to make, which is that cheating is a very subjective thing, and of course Samantha, Samantha.

Everyone keeps reminding Samantha, like, well, you think the cheating is fine because you cheat, And she can't really argue with that, which is interesting.

She doesn't say a word.

She she just SIPs her her lemonade or.

She rips her glasses off.

At one point says something which also I was interested because Carrie and Samantha keep their sunglasses on, and Brandon and I don't have her sunglass on.

But I think it's because the sun is behind our head and they couldn't open their eyes looking at us, you know, those days you're just like I can't open my eyes exactly.

And then when she has some important line and she them off, you know, because they're large, like glamorous sunglasses, and I remember all of that a lot.

But so we sit down and Samantha says, men cheat the same reason why dogs lick their balls, because they can.

It's part of their biology, which you know, I think that people do, still kind of feel and I just feel like that is like such a cop out.

I agree, wouldn't that be true for women too?

Like why can't women cheat?

Well?

And of course women do, of course.

Yeah, Like it's such a weird, like outmoded kind of a thing to say.

I feel like, I mean, everyone can cheat, and some people choose to and some people don't.

But there's not really an excuse to say that.

But also the line was funny.

It was funny, of course, the line was no good point, good point, good point, good point, good point.

And then Carrie points out the women cheat too, of course, like we're saying and that it's different because we aren't driven by testosterone.

But I mean, testosterone to me is like a very lame reason to cheat.

I just feel like, do you have a brain.

Do you have a brain.

I think the answer is yes.

Let's use the brain.

You know, in a perfect world that would be fantastic, so so true, so true.

And then so we all have our different you know, the viewpoints on the cheating.

Of course, Charlotte is like, no, you know, it's not okay, which I agree it's not okay, but I mean life is complicated, of course.

And then Carrie says, someone's definition of what constitutes cheating is in direct proportion to how much they themselves want to cheat, which is pretty funny, yes, and very relevant I think to the Big conversation, because that's that's kind of part of her struggle with Big.

You know, there was the scene in the first season where he tells her he has a work thing and then she sees him out to dinner with a woman after she's spent like eight days at home with him, which to me, I would just I would just be done, I think.

I mean, I don't really know, I guess, but you know what I'm saying.

I mean, that seems a struggle.

That seems a struggle to me.

That's part of why I didn't like Big in the beginning.

But it's okay, I'm working through it.

Then we go back to Carrie's apartment and she's sitting writing and like a torn T shirt and or underwear, Like it's so quintessential.

I feel like this is the phase of the show where we're really solidifying certain kind of elements of what will be known as iconic in the show.

We don't really know that at the time, of course, but like you know, we're I think, feeling bolder about our choices.

You know, she's sitting there, she's not glamorous, but she's also not totally clothed.

It's very intimate.

It's her thoughts, you know.

I just there's so many things that I love about it.

So she's sitting there writing and she's wondering, was Samantha right, is cheating like the proverbial tree in the forest?

Oh?

This is so good that that it doesn't exist if there's no one around to catch you.

Is it a gravity free world of anything goes?

And what constitutes cheating?

Really good questions, yes, and really hard to answer.

Even still absolutely I agree.

What do you think I mean, does it matter if no one catches you?

I think it matters.

Well, I think it matters if you are someone with any kind of conscience.

You know, yeah, that doesn't mean you make that doesn't mean you won't do it, but real.

But you'll feel bad.

It'll be an issue for you.

You'll carry it.

I mean, you'll.

Carry it, you know, whether you get caught or not, whether you get caught or not.

Absolutely I agree with one.

So then we see Samantha.

She goes to the gym.

She has this kind of adorable thing with this big beefy guy.

Oh my gosh.

Well he was the trainer, right, he was the trainer, and.

She was training with the trainer and she gets him to train her, and it's kind of very h you know, sexually laiden at the gym.

And then more happens later, and it just made me laugh because man, I relate to all that stuff.

Don't get me started.

They were back with me in the galleries the next morning, and you guys come to get the painting, which is adorable, and I find out that you're no longer a couple, but you're good friends, which I really like.

And this is so true when you look at gay women, I think.

And gay men too.

Gay man two, that's right, Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, I mean, and it may not be always the case, right, but certainly I have friends who have remained friends with their exes and good friends with their almost members.

Right, yeah, I love that so much, And what a perfect world that would be if we could all be like that.

And that's when you guys out me up, asked me up for drinks.

And this is when I go out all night and dance, I think, and I make wonderful new friends, which is really fun.

And then Miranda's on this day with this guy Ethan.

Oh my good lord, so they're oh, I just love this scene there walking down the beautiful village streets at night and he's talking in depth about shoah versus Schindler's List, and she has the absolute most serious face and she is quiet for like an entire block, which literally never happens with Miranda, Like she just has no expression on her face and nothing to say, as this guy rattles on, rattles on, rattles on, but passionately rattling on.

And then she just kisses him, which is so cute and very innocent in a way.

And then they end up back in his apartment.

They're making out, making out, and then he turns on the TV onto a porn tape, as she calls it that, and he says this, it's okay, and she's like sure, and then come to find out that this is like a deal breaker for him, that it must have porn.

But yeah, I think this whole thing is funny because at that point in time, I don't think that porn had kind of reached the you know, kind of common ground that it is now, where like porn you're just like, oh, yeah, porn, you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Yeah, it hadn't happened yet.

Like this guy had porn tapes, he had ready in his TV.

And what he later says to her, which I think is kind of heartbreaking and sad, when she's like, no, I want you to be having sex with me, not these women on the television, and he goes, well, but I just met you, and some of these women on the television I've had relationships with for years.

Yeah.

He just feel bad for that guy.

Yeah, yes, he has a porn addiction.

He totally has a porn addiction, and it's kind of pathetic.

But at the same time, there are so many people who have relationships that are are you know, virtual if you will, Yeah, you know on that level.

You know, I know it was ahead of it's time that episode.

I think it really was.

It really was.

It was really like so much so that you have to think back, like, oh yeah, porn used to be like shocking exactly.

And you know what, I'm going to digress for a minute.

Just go for it.

Go back to the cheating part.

What I also loved about the exploration of cheating was that Carrie felt like she was cheating on her friends with Big, you know, and that that's another that was just another little nice nuance.

About I know.

I love that too, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and I think it's so good.

The confession scene, which we're coming up on pretty soon, well, first word, we have Carrie at Biggs, which, oh my god, this scene I love so much.

She's cooking for him, which is not her thing, and he's got that black turtleneck on, and this is like very This is a theme that's going to go on for quite time with them, like into the movies where you know, they cook and they dance at one point, do you remember this, Like it's so beautiful to see the first version of it, and they both look so great and you can tell because you know when you've broken up with someone and then you get back together.

It's like so fantastic in the beginning, you know, just look at them, you know, like she's just looking at him with just such passion, and you know, but she's trying to keep a lid on it, but it's like so good.

It's just I thought it was fantastic and so great to see them.

And he also is just so much more fun than he used to be, Like it's so much more relaxed, you know, And so I was pleased for her.

I feel like please for Carrie in the scene.

But but oh yeah, there all.

Then we do quickly kind of get back to her trying to get him to say something, which of course he doesn't want to basically do what I mean, which is kind of annoying.

And and I mean, I guess, like you said, she has chosen to go back, so it is you know, she is more kind of aware of her choices and that she is going to get in here and try again.

But I'm also like, oh lord, because the whole debate is should they go out in public, should they tell their friends?

She says, should they make it official?

She says, well, what are you going to tell your friends?

And he says nothing like she's an idiot, right, because of course he's not going to talk to his friends about her.

And she goes, oh, right, because you have no friends, which I thought was a very good comeback.

And then he goes, well, what would you want me to tell them?

Like it's all very familiar.

I have to say, guys.

You know, yeah, yea.

So then we have this scene walking Oh god, oh this is so good.

She's walking on the street after she was at Biggs and she runs into Miranda and at seven in the morning, oh.

Yes, the Walk of Shame.

Yes the walker.

Shane fully lies to Miranda that whole scene, and I was like, wow, First of all, I can't believe Miranda fell for this.

Well, I was going to say, right, and I was like, did she really buy that?

Really?

I know, I know, I know, I know I felt the same way.

I mean, I think it's because I think it's because so sometime has passed, right that that Carrie has not been with Big, So we wouldn't be thinking like, oh big, you know what I mean, and Randa wouldn't be thinking oh big.

But I think Miranda would have been thinking like someone else, like of.

Course you're coming from somebody's apartment.

You're not coming from the dentist, like really.

And you're not on your way to the dentistam no.

Like it's crazy.

It's crazy, but it's kind of adorable also at the same time.

And of course Miranda has her poor an addiction boyfriend on her mind, so she talks about that.

Then we go to Samantha.

This scene adorable.

His name is Thor the trainer, and the trainer basically says that that he doesn't that he's never slept with the client before.

This is a fantasy of his, and she's like, oh, fantastic.

And then he says, you know, let's shower because I think they've just come from the gym, right, So they go in the shower.

He's washed her legs, which is quite fascinating, and then he says, are you a dirty girl?

And they got to Kim and she has just the best look on her face.

She just looks up.

She's like, well, that depends how you define it, I guess, And then he said and then she says, oh, had I known we were going to be doing this, I would have shaved my legs something like that.

And he goes, oh, well, you know, I can do that, like it seems very organic how it happens.

You know.

So he's shaving her legs, which she seems to find sensual.

I have never let a man shave my legs.

I was I'd be scared they were going to cut me.

I mean, I was like, wow, she's very trusting.

Well, I never thought of it as as four plays, So no, no, I would think of it as for play or even just like something that I would be like, oh, yes, go ahead.

I don't think I would do that.

I don't think I would do that.

I would be very scared that I would have a lot of cuts on my legs and uh, private parts.

Because as he goes up, he's like.

Specially right, yes, I mean.

Geez lo wais.

So he's going up and he says something like, you know, I don't even know if he asked.

He just keeps going and she looks like it's exciting, which I'm just like, joh, I'm scary.

So we find out later cuts a lightning bolt into her pubic hair.

And the thing that I love the most about this is that she then goes and talks to Miranda and carry about it.

I guess carries in the bathroom at her apartment, but she's telling Miranda about it, and she says something to the effect of, you know, this is a big thing now.

People are really you know, changing how they take care of that area down there, And man, is that an understatement?

Like this was the beginning, okay of that whole waxing situation that we went through for quite some time, and then I thought it went away, and then it seems like it's back.

I'm not really sure.

I would love for some young ladies to tell me how they feel about it on the Instagram page.

So she's telling they're in Carrie's apartment.

Oh god, I forgot about this scene.

Carrie's in the bathroom, she's not coming out.

Samantha and Miranda are discussing this the shaving situation, and then I show up in my headband and and also a weird tube top.

I'm like, whoa, so nineties very rare, very rare.

I have a code over it, thank god.

And at a certain point, Carrie has not come out of the bathroom, so they're like, uh, what are you doing?

Is everything okay in there?

And she says, no, actually not.

You know, I have this new diaphragm and it's stuck.

I remember this so well because there was a lot of stress about this.

There's a lot of conversation and stress if this would ever happen in life.

I believe that one of the writers did have a story that it was based on, which was always our thing that the writers had to have some personal experience or a friend with personal experience for it to be considered plausible, I mean enough to be in the show.

Were there advocating, yes, this could happen.

And so it is decided that Samantha will be the one to go into the bathroom and help her, and all of us are like, oh yeah, you know, I have like a crazy look on my face, and then it's over.

But it was really something that people do seem to remember, and I think it's really funny and great.

You know.

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if it's realistic or not, but I think it's funny and great.

Well, it's like, you know, what will your friends do for you?

That's right, that's exactly right, that's right, and they should do whatever you need.

And Samantha is there for her, you know, that's right.

Yeah, So then we walked down the street and it's one of the first walk and talks that I remember, with all four of us walking multiple blocks and having an important scene, and that came to be also a staple and so hard to do because everyone has to be perfect in the master and that might take many many blocks, and you have to walk and then you have to stop and go back right and do it again, and you have to hope that no one drives by and honks at you.

And usually it's the wee hours you know that we're doing those, which is why there's like no especial.

Times square yeap, which is where that scene takes place.

Exactly exactly, and you couldn't generally.

I don't remember this particular time, but I remember later on we filmed the I'm Square and you couldn't start till ten or eleven at night.

They wouldn't give you a permit.

So that's when you're beginning those scenes, that's right.

So we would be there, oh night, oh the night long, all the night long, all the night long.

That was the job.

So this is when she Carrie confesses to us that she was with Big and we all stop and we're just like what and we say, all kinds of really funny, funny things she tells them about Big.

They get upset.

We say our opinions, he's an whole I say that.

I say carry he was such an ould to you.

So I'm like, yes, Charlotte, Yes, that's great.

And then we say, you know, why are you sneaking around behind us?

And then Carrie walks away because we're so upset.

And then she goes back to apartment and she says, the problem is my friends are right, and you see her walking back and forth kind of struggling inside herself with the fact that she knows that we're right, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't want to do it, which I think is so relatable.

Obviously, we all do things that we are not one hundred percent about, but we're still driven to do them.

That's her life is.

Then we go to Charlotte going to that very very fancy mansion with that crazy statue with all the lesbians, which I love so much.

And I'm sure that this Patty Aston, who's supposed to be like the Queen Bee of the power lesbians, I'm sure she was based on someone, but I don't know who.

I think Darren wrote this episode.

I should check back.

I'm pretty sure Darren wrote it.

And I love it.

I love everything about it that she's you know, so powerful and so rich and it's only women in this place, right, love it.

And then I finally meet Patty and then oh, tell your ride.

It's not veil, it's tell your ride.

And they're like, oh, her house, and tell your it's so amazing, and I'm like, oh, I'd love to go, you know, because I'm just like, yeah, yeah, I want to be a part of this group.

And then Patty asks if I'm gay.

That's a very funny way that my producers wrote this down.

And Charlotte says that I'm not, and then I say, you know, but I just love the company of all the women and it's so safe and warm, which is so true.

It's so true.

And then Patty's just like, no, if you don't eat the pea, he can't be in the group, basically, and Charlotte looks really sad.

Then oh, poor Samantha goes to the steam room at the gym and there's a naked lady in there with a lightning bowlt shaped into her private area, and lady is all mad and she gets up and she says he's such antole or some such and then you know, Charlotte, Samantha realizes that, yeah, she it was all an act on this trainer's part.

He was just going through all the clients, right.

Never a good feeling even for Samantha.

The Then Miranda is back at the porn guy and she's decided that she's had enough.

She asked him to turn it off.

This is when she says, it's either them on the TV or me, and he says, you know, the ladies on the TV I've had a relationship with for years.

And it's just kind of sad.

And she leaves and he turns the TV back on.

Yes he does.

Gosh, I wonder what happened to him.

Then we cut to this beautiful scene with Carrie and Big and they're dancing and I don't know where they're dancing.

It's such a glorious like old School.

That's a supper club that was such a staple in New York City.

Absolutely great, so great, beautiful, and they're dancing beautifully.

There's not many people there.

It's kind of intimate, and she's talking again about how, you know, are they seeing each other again?

Officially, and he's like, what does it even mean?

And then he says, well, why don't you tell me why we broke up in the first place?

And she says this great monologue that he doesn't hear, but we here the audience hears about how, you know, could he ever love her the way she wants to be loved?

You know, it's really deep.

But then she says, but I but I took the easy way out, and I said, I guess I was afraid, right.

I thought that was so good and I feel like I have done that in life so many times.

You're basically putting it on yourself, you know what, it's actually questions you have about them.

You're making it seem like it's your own, your own issue.

Yeah, you're responsible.

Right, You're responsible for it.

And it's about your you know, lack of strength or or you know, insecurity, your insecurities absolutely, which kind of hurt me to watch that.

And then then he says, but I did miss you a lot, and that seems to make her happy, you know, And then she says, did you cry, which I love so much?

He says, no, but I did listen to a lot of Sinatra.

Right right, right, right right right.

So like the thing that I think about it is like that is his way of answering.

That's what he can do, you know what I'm saying.

He can't cry, and he certainly can't tell her that he cried, but he can tell her I listened to a lot of Sinatra, right, that is who that man is, right right right, and she wants to be there with him exactly, And I think that's good.

So I love the episode so much and I just think, I just think it's beautiful, like and so, you know, there's like such a kind of an innocence about it, you know, even though we're dealing with these topics you know this, you know, porn this and that and shaving public pubic areas, you know whatever, like things like this, But at the same time, there's like a like a sweetness about it that I I love to see and it takes me back to kind of the newness of it all because a show, you know, it's nice, it's a good one.

I'm so happy that you were on it with me.

I was so happy to do it.

It was it was a pleasure.

It was such a joy to do, so much fun.

It was so much fun.

I know.

I wish Uchreloe could have just been a little bit bolder and stayed in that group a little longer somehow.

But you know, one thing we miss.

One of the friends asked her if she told the lesbian she was not a lesbian, and she was like, well, you know, no, it doesn't matter what the right right?

I love that, No, I know, and they're so right where they're like, no, you need to tell them you're leading them along and she looks like, what I can actually be leading women along?

And wait?

Also, doesn't Miranda have something really funny where she says like when I was fourteen, I kissed this girl blah blah blah and it was really fun.

I was like, oh my god, did we remember that?

And just like that, I don't think we did, because yes, there was something there.

Should have taken Miranda to the Power Lesbians party.

Little did we know where we would all be going many years later.

Many years later, so many years later later, which is so fabulous.

Congratulations to you all.

You know you we're so lucky.

Yeah, I mean you never thought, you know, when you first signed on to that show, that the legacy that is created.

You know, we never would have dreamt.

Yeah, never amazing.

It is amazing, and we're so thankful to the fans really, you know, because we could have gotten canceled.

I mean, anything could have happened.

Yes, you know, this business, I mean, even if the show was popular, if new leadership comes into a company and they decide, well, that's not my baby, you know, I want to put something else there.

You know, you're out.

So true, it's really been through many a leadership.

Also, yes, so that's fantastic.

It is, it is, it is.

And also I just remember so many things about like you know, like I remember there was a time where they said, you know, you're the show's not going to make it to syndication, partly because we were HBO, which didn't have a track record in this way, and partly because they said, you know, women led shows don't travel.

And then we became this huge international.

Yes, right, Yeah.

There's so many rules, so cold rules that we ended up breaking, thank god, and then they very quickly forget.

And then the next thing comes along and breaks and they're like, oh my god, and they're like no, you guys, Like there's this, and then there's this, and then there's this, like oh my gosh.

But it's hard to change things.

It is, but something always comes along.

I mean when you say that, you know, I think about Black Panther, and I think about the myth of how you know, black lead films, et cetera, Yeah, don't do well internationally or whatever, you know, and then Black Panther comes along and just blows it up out of the water.

Yeah.

And then look at Cinners and now.

Centers and now Centers and now Centers, you know, which is just incredible.

And then again they're like, oh my god, and you're like, no, not, oh my god, like.

It's a surprise, you know.

Unfortunately, what we have and have had now is.

We don't need to necessarily rely on the marketing departments of the studios because that's where black lit things or women let things get stuck because they don't put the finances behind marketing it, you know.

And so now that we have social media and the word of mouth is now you know, digital and all over the world, then you know, they're not necessarily in control anymore how a film or TV shows received, because the audience really.

Has the steering wheel.

So I think that's amazing.

I think that's a really good point I think the thing that's still frustrating to me is when you're pitching the things.

They're like.

Yes, and you're like you guys, come on.

And that boils down to leadership, who's making the decisions, you know, and getting more women, more people of color in leadership positions who can green light stuff.

As we know, as we And also there is the thing now too where you can also make your own thing.

It may not be in such a huge way, right, but as a calling card, as a way to get your foot in the door.

You can create your own content in one way or another.

Absolutely, and people are doing it now with their cell phones.

So yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

All right, I like that happy note to end on.

It's been so great having you.

Thank you for having me.

It was a pleasure going down memory lane with you.

It was a pleasure.

I love to see you, sending love to you in New York.

Continue on.

I will be watching thank you.

Actually I'm in Atlanta because you're in Atlanta.

Yeah, I'm shooting the new Daytime drama Beyond the Gates.

So that's what's keeping me here.

Yes, amazing, are you baking?

Baking?

It's a thousand degrees.

Yeah, I'm from South Carolina, so my mom has been keeping me updated on the temperature.

Well, the temperature is the same here as it is in New York right now.

Oh wow, yeah.

It's like one hundred degrees.

It's one hundred degrees in both places.

Oh my gosh.

Well I would never know.

You look fresh as a daisy.

Thank you that I'm in their conditioning.

I love it, love it, love it.

Well, good luck on this job, fantastic, thank you, thank you so much, thanks for being Oh good, good good.

I look forward.

Okay, so next time, yes,