Welcome to the Play-Based Learning podcast.

I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher bestie that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants and teach you all I know about play and childhood.

I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity.

Curiosity and joy in the children that you care for.

Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning.

Let's get going.

Welcome to the Play-Based Learning podcast.

Today I have the beautiful ika.

She shakes her head.

Every time I say that, I gotta build you up.

Thank you.

And we gotta build women up, right?

Yes, we do.

We do.

Yes.

So welcome Ray Pika.

Thank you for being on the podcast.

We're gonna chat about your new book.

Thank you Kristen.

I'm always glad to talk with you about anything amazing.

Me too.

It's always such a joy.

I, everywhere I go, I should, I mean, I've probably told you this before, but you are on my list of must read books for early childhood educators.

So anytime I go into a room of people, your name comes up multiple times as well as the names of your my two favorite books, which are what If everybody Understood.

Child development.

Child development.

Yeah.

What if we taught the way children learn something like that.

Yeah.

I think what if we taught the way children learn?

Yes.

That's it.

I, yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome.

They're my, they're my faves and they're on the shelf behind me as well, so.

Oh, yeah.

So I appreciate you always in the work that you're doing, so Thank you.

Today we're talking about kind of a, a.

I feel like it's a little controversial among early childhood educators, which is the topic of rough and tumble play.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that it is really misunderstood because in my experience going into on stages and speaking in front of people about early childhood education and play, when they hear rough and tumble, people think, whoa, we can't do that.

We can't.

We can't let children wrestle.

We can't let children.

Roughhouse with each other.

We can't let them engage in risky play.

They'll get hurt.

And so I guess what I would love for you, in your words, to describe like how can we debunk that?

What's the best way to like let people know that that's not the case and that it's so essential for growth and development?

Yeah.

I spent so much time these days debunking myths, you know, that there were just so many of them floating around out there and, um, there's so much fear.

Floating around that, uh, you know, the myths, the, the, the, they feed on each other, right?

They do the myths and the feet and the fears.

So, um, and the control of the adults in the room also doesn't help things at all either.

And it isn't just the teachers who are afraid of risky and rough and tumble play.

Um, I, I've got those in two separate chapters in, in the book.

Um, because I mean, there, there is a lot of overlap, but yeah, I would say risky, rough and tumble and big body play are the three that.

Children are not experiencing enough of, um, particularly the risky and the, and the rough and tubble.

But you know, if of course if we're going to be banning tag, and there was one article I read where they, they banned balls of any kind and any size on the playground.

So apparently even a playground ball is, is as danger to children, you know, if we're going to be banning that, of course we're not gonna allow something like, yeah.

Risky or rough and tumble play, you know, of course they're going to get hurt.

I tell a story in the book about the little boy who was my neighbor for, um, a number of years.

When I lived in New Hampshire, and he was six when I moved in, you know, and Clark, he, he, he had bloodied body parts and broken bones and, you know, he was a typical boy living a typical childhood.

And, you know, it wasn't that his parents went, oh yeah, okay, so what, he's got a broken bone.

I mean, you know, they took him to, for medical attention, but nobody freaked out because it was, it was.

What boys did, you know what children did, they fell down and went boom.

They scraped themselves, you know, got bruised and bloodied and, and all of that.

And it's just part of going up now.

That's not a very good argument for allowing children.

It's good enough for me, perhaps.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the word typical, but, uh, typical childhood is, is what we would like.

For children, the, the kind of typical childhood that, that I grew up seeing.

Um, but yeah, they, I don't know, how do we convince them?

I mean, we convince them by pointing out the number of ways that that rough and tumble play, you know, is, is good Yeah.

For them.

Um, it helps them explore their personal boundaries, you know, and become aware of.

What touch is, um, playful and what touch is painful.

And, and then they learn how to control their strength and, and better interact with one another.

And, you know, I didn't realize until I was researching, I.

Well, the book that even wasps and spiders engage in Rough and tumble play.

No, really?

Yeah.

I mean, we know about puppies and kittens and pandas, right?

Yeah.

We've all seen that, but yeah.

Yeah.

Wasps and spiders.

It is.

It is really prevalent in nature.

It is.

Something again, just like play in general is what nature intended and we just keep stepping in the way of mother nature and saying, no, no, we know better.

We know better.

Right?

Which is kind of crazy, isn't it?

Um, but yeah, you know, voice.

In particular, although Mike Huber in his book, which I can't remember the name of it right now, um, uh, wrote that it's the girls in his class who most often ask him to bring out the, the rough and tumble mat, which is, I think, pretty cool.

Mm-hmm.

It's pretty cool.

But boys typically lack the type of interaction, you know, that buff and tumble play allows for them.

Um.

Touch, touch is so incredibly important.

Francis Carlson wrote a wonderful book about the need for touch in children.

And, uh, and boys don't get enough of it, you know, um, sometimes it's not the right kind of touch that they get.

Um, and they also, it teaches them how to regulate feelings of aggression.

Now you might think, well.

My child doesn't have feelings of aggression, but every child has feelings of aggression.

Um, yeah, they do it.

It develops naturally in children, right.

At the extreme, Dr.

Stewart Brown, who's founder of the National Institute for Play mm-hmm.

He discovered in his interviews with like 26 prison inmates that the most aggressive among them, the most, um, the ones who had committed the most egregious crimes had never engaged in rough and tumble play as children.

Really?

Yeah.

Now that's not to say that every child who doesn't engage with is going to grow up to be a murderer.

Right.

Um, but it's, you know, it's, it's something that they need.

Yeah.

And you know.

There's the possibility that they could get hurt, but there are ways to tell Yes.

Your child, right?

You've seen it, right?

Oh yeah.

We, I call it play face.

Ah, yeah.

Like you can tell.

So at at Butterfly Hill, the program that I founded, we had wrestling mats and we would bring them out and let children wrestle.

And we just knew as the adults in the room to look for like the signs of.

Play like happiness, joy on their faces, and if we saw something switch, we could then step in.

However, that never happened in my time at Butterfly Hill being the teacher in the classroom.

It never happened where all of a sudden somebody switched and was like aggressive during their roughhousing, their wrestling.

Yeah.

Was.

Joy on their faces.

They were laughing.

They were smiling.

And then if like one accidentally, like if somebody was like, oh, and something hurt, it was really cool because you could see their empathy starting to build like their compassion for others.

And they, they would stop right away and they'd be worried for the other child.

And like oftentimes children get worried that they're gonna get in trouble, but.

You know, over time with their trusted teachers at Butterfly Hill, they knew that they were gonna get in trouble for accidentally hurting somebody.

But we have to like walk through the steps after that of like checking in with them and making sure you know, they're okay.

And so, like that's, that's what we did at Butterfly Hill, and it was never an issue.

There was no punching, no kicking.

But the kids also set up like the guidelines, the boundaries.

Yes.

Ahead of time.

We had a discussion with all of them, like, this is wrestling and, um, the goal is really to just like, get one of you on the ground.

Like that's really it.

Um, so like, and then they would come up with, well, no spitting, no hair pulling, no.

Um.

Kicking things like that and it no biting.

Right.

It's fine.

Right.

And I think it's brilliant that you said the kids came up with these rules.

I mean, when they take part in the rulemaking, they're much more likely to wanna abide by them.

And because they understand the need for them when they've created them themselves, you know, they take that ownership of the rules and protocols.

Um, yeah, we will not bite, we will not grab above the shoulders.

Um, we will not.

Hit others with objects and we'll stop as soon as someone isn't having fun.

You know?

Yes.

Yeah.

Those are the four that I outlined and, and, and, but as you said, observation is the simplest and, and most effective way to ensure.

That it's, it's safe and fun.

Yeah.

If a child is smiling, it's probably okay.

You know?

Yes.

If a child is crying or frowning or you know, then then you know, you may have to intervene.

And sometimes that doesn't have to be a complete stoppage.

Sometimes it can just be a reminder to be gentle with one another.

Yep.

Oh, and you mention empathy.

My gosh, isn't that one of the most important?

Traits a person can have.

Yeah.

The ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes, we sure could use some of that.

Yes.

Um, more of that.

Absolutely.

Well, and empathy, from what I've learned, empathy, it, it, it's really not fully developed until, well, I think it starts getting more developed around the age of seven or eight.

So like true empathy.

I mean, you're practicing it when you're younger.

Mm-hmm.

And rough housing is a great way to practice it.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are the, so like if children, we know they're not gonna grow up to be murderers if they don't have rough mostly, I mean, there might be like one or two that grow up to be murderers, but.

What, what are the downfalls of like completely taking all like roughhousing, big body play, risky play?

Like what is the detriment?

What are we doing to our kids when we take those things away?

Well, we're not giving them all those opportunities I was mentioning, you know?

Um, but in addition to those like with risky play.

We are running the risk that they will not be able to assess risk.

You know, that's kind of a redundant sentence there, but Yeah.

Um, it's so important that they, they.

They understand that some risks are willing, you, you know, you, you're willing to take and some you aren't.

And they learned that by determining for themselves whether or not they should climb that next rung, you know, whether or not they can make it safely over the big puddle or, you know, whatever it might be.

They have to judge those things and they kind of have a, a, a built in sense of judgment for them.

You know, they're, they're meant.

To, to try things out and see what they can and they can't do, you know?

Now some people might say, you know, so what's the big deal?

They don't learn to assess risks.

Well, gee, there are a few of those in life.

As you get older, when you are an adolescent, you know, what's the risk?

Oh, you know, what's the harm of trying this cigarette or this beer?

You know?

I mean, they, they say that even, you know, it, it.

There's fewer incidences of pregnancy with, with kids who understand risk assessment.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

And, and yeah.

I mean, they have that, they have that, that sense of self and self-control.

Yeah.

And then the big body play.

Oh, I mean, I, I don't even know where to start.

Okay.

Well first start with, let's start with what are some examples of big body play?

Oh, well, you know, you, you use the large muscles of the body, um, running, jumping, climbing, uh, uh, all of those wonderful locomotive skills.

Um.

Uh, they're leading such sedentary lives these days that they're not getting to practice all of those things.

So yeah.

Hanging, swinging, um, spinning, all of that Yes.

Comes under the heading of, of big body play.

I'm, I'm actually.

Creating a new online course about big body play.

So, Ooh.

It's funny 'cause that's where I, I mean, I started as a movement person.

Yeah, you did.

And it was all about the physical back in the day.

And then I came to realize the importance of movement.

I.

As a tool for learning, you know, active learning and all of that.

Um, and just all of these other aspects to it have kind of taken over and now I'm going back to my roots and creating this new online course.

So Amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and as I'm reviewing all of this, you know, I'm just, I'm thinking, wow.

Uh.

Wow.

Kids are just not, they're, they're leading such sedentary lives.

Yes.

And they're not getting all of this anymore.

And, okay, so yesterday I was, when I was working on the course, I was writing about, you know, how they require the, the big body play to build and maintain healthy bones, muscles and joints.

You know, those things don't just happen.

Hmm.

I mean, they don't grow healthy bones, muscles and joints by sitting in front of screens or, you know.

So true.

Um.

And I often there, you know, I, and we've said, we've said the term childhood obesity crisis so often that it's become kind of, it goes in one ear and out the other Yeah.

At this point.

And, um, but it's getting worse, not better.

And, and the, the list of, of ailments that come from that, um, you know, there's just, I mean, even, even in terms of fine motor skills mm-hmm.

The large muscles develop before the small muscles do.

Yes, yes.

So, you know, we stick a pencil in the child's hand at four years old and, and think that that's gonna work when, first of all, the hand isn't fully developed.

No.

And secondly, you know, they haven't had, they haven't been climbing and, and swinging and hanging and all of that stuff.

That, that, I mean, the shoulders, the upper torso, all of that is involved in, in writing.

I think I'm, I'm getting, my brain is just getting all scattered here.

I get all crazy about all this.

Yes.

Well, rightfully so.

We care about the children in this world and we care that they have the opportunities to develop and grow the way they're meant to the, the way they're meant to.

And that's what I was gonna say.

It's like we are emphasizing imagined fears.

Yes.

To the point that we are keeping them from doing, you know, things that, that nature intended for them and thereby ignoring the very real fears that they might not develop physically, that they might, you know, become a victim to type two diabetes.

Yeah, I mean, back in the day, the CDC sentence for disease control said that.

Children born in the year 2000, faced a one in three chance of developing type two diabetes.

Yeah, I mean that, those are not good odds and no.

And then we know all the repercussions, possible repercussions of, of diabetes.

I've witnessed it in people, you know, um, the, the, the illnesses and death that can result from that.

So there are some things that, and.

You know, I don't have like a whole bunch of obese murderers on our hands.

Right.

You know, there are some very real things that's we care, we shouldn't be afraid of.

Yeah.

You know, that we're not, and instead we're making op stuff about stranger danger and, and the possibility of, you know, they banned cartwheels at the school, not because they had, um, there had been any incidents.

Of injuries with cartwheels.

Right.

But it might be, you know, they might be right.

So yeah, we've gotten a little cuckoo.

We have, well even at my son's school, um, he came it, we live in Minnesota and snow is here.

It's snowing right now.

And so that it does snow accumulates and it's fun to play with when you're a kid.

Like you should be allowed to play with the snow.

But he said that they couldn't pick up snow.

They couldn't pick it up off the playground.

Uh, are they afraid that they'll make snowballs?

Yeah.

And throw them.

Throw them?

Yep.

I saw another, this one drove.

This one drives me bonkers too.

So at my daughter's middle school.

Chil, they don't have, they don't go outside hardly ever.

They, sixth, seventh, eighth grade.

And I mean, we know that you still need to move when you're sixth, seventh, eighth grade.

Right?

You also need natural light for the pineal gland and for more productivity.

And I mean, there's so much research and, and yes, and, and, and there's research about, you know, the role of physical activity and learning and in the brain and all of that, but also about the need for breaks.

You know, the learning brain can only absorb like 10 minutes of stuff at a time.

Yeah.

So, oh boy, how I know.

Okay, lemme, I'll finish the story about Yes, do.

Sorry.

So she was outside.

Wait, I, the children who are getting picked up by their parents wait outside the back of the school and then we drive around and wait in a really long line to pick up.

Oh yeah.

I'm seeing those lines.

So then there's.

All the kids out there, and there's maybe like two adults kind of monitoring, trying to keep kids all wrangled in one spot and there was ice chunks like on the sidewalk and there was a kid kicking 'em around.

I.

Just kicking it with his foot, like they were playing like a little made up game of soccer between these couple boys in this as children do.

Sure.

And some teacher just, no, don't, you don't need to kick the ice chunk.

Like shut it down.

And I was like, why?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

You're in control.

All these crazy examples come into my mind.

They just pop into my mind when you're telling me things like that.

Uh, the story I heard about the woman who called the police because children were sledding down a hill, you know, speaking of snow, oh, you know, flooding, iconic.

Childhood activity.

Yes.

And she's calling the police.

Um, oh my gosh.

Then I used to live, um, when I lived in New Hampshire, I had, there was a house I lived in with a big steep hill that went down the backyard and next door was the same steep hill and I was out on my deck one day and they had rented that, that place out, the place next door to me.

The children were running up the hill.

Now mind you, I could barely walk up the hill without, and the fact that children could run up that hill is a miracle.

And it's a beautiful thing.

It's incredible.

And of course, what did the mother yell?

Don't run.

Yeah, don't run.

It was grass.

Oh my gosh.

And you're going up the hill.

You're going up the hill running.

Even if they ran down the hill, you know, and fell and rolled, that's really good for proprioceptive vestibular senses.

Rolling.

You know, it's, um, it wasn't like they were running on broken glass, you know?

It, it was, yeah.

Um, I, I like to say that.

The, like the last greatest risk in life that we allow children to take, like when they're a baby and they're learning how to walk, like we cheer them on, we stand there and we're like, come on, you can do it.

You can do it.

You can do it.

And fall down.

And we're like, get back up and do it again.

Like we celebrate it and then as soon as they start to run, we're like, no, stop.

Slow down.

Yeah.

Be fall.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so like learning to walk is really the last big risk that we let children take.

Oh, that's really sad.

If you think about it, it really is many years after that they have to learn.

And you know the two words that.

Should not be uttered as often as they are or be careful.

Hmm.

That's what children hear all the time.

Be careful, be careful, be careful.

Of course, we want them to be careful.

Yeah.

But they will learn to be careful if we allow them to engage in.

Childhood play the way they're supposed to, you know?

Absolutely.

You know, girls here it far more often than boys.

Of course.

Yeah.

Um, there was one study where the children were climbing and you know, the boys were encouraged.

Of course, you know, mom and dad were right there to catch 'em if they fell, but yeah, you know, you can do it.

You can go a little higher.

And the girls were told, be careful, be careful, be careful.

Which.

You know, doesn't lend itself to, um, growing up courageous.

Yeah.

It doesn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So at Butterfly Hill, you'll love this story 'cause we're gonna bring it back around and, and throw some positive stories in here.

Okay.

At Butterfly Hill, the kids.

Go out to forest school, excuse me.

The kids go out to forest school in the mornings and they spend two, two and a half hours out in the woods.

Just nice romping around, climbing trees, all the things.

So, um, I just came across this video from back when I was leading forest school and teaching for a school of these three little girls.

They have their full mud suits on like rain suits.

'cause it was kind of damp out and we're in what we call the mushroom forest, but it's, I don't know why we got that name.

There's no mushrooms.

Okay.

But it's like red and white pine trees.

So there's not a lot of underbrush because of all the pine needles that fall down.

And the trees, the branches start, like the big branches start.

15 feet up in the air.

But below that there's all these like little nubs from branches that used to be there.

And so I have this little video of three little girls working together.

Two of them are trying to teach, so two of 'em were like four or five years old and one was three years old and they were trying to teach the 3-year-old how to climb the tree, and they were like cheering her on.

They're like, you can do it.

You can do it.

I know you can do it.

Just put your hand on this one and then put your other hand here and then put your foot right here.

And they were like, like helping her feet put like on the little branch nubs and they were like, like clapping for her and cheering for her and it was like, it just was the best.

I have so many little videos like of children cheering other children on.

Taking risks.

I love that.

And doing hard things that they didn't think that they could do.

And I think that that's another, that's what's so special about taking risks is that, and big body play and rough and tumble play is that you do things that you might not be comfortable doing, but then.

You like grow so much self-confidence because of it?

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I tell the story in the book of, of, um, when I was a child, um, we lived in this house, it was stucco and there was a big concrete or cement or whatever they were Yeah.

Steps leading up to the door.

Um, and there was this concrete platform sort of, I don't know, whatever.

And you could jump down into what was this very small, concrete space.

Okay.

I'm quite sure that that's perhaps why my knees don't like me anymore, but oh my gosh, I would climb the stairs, climb up onto that, that ledge thing, and I couldn't think about it for too long and then just jump.

Yeah.

And it was a long way down.

Oh my gosh.

And you know, you were surrounded by concrete or cement or stucco or bricks or whatever the heck was there.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but you know.

I did it.

I did it.

Yes.

I also learned to cartwheel down the middle of the street, you know, and, and I, oh, I had to practice, and practice and practice, and practice before I finally got it.

And I mean, just between the persistence and, and I.

Um, and the bravery that I had.

Yeah.

A child, you know, when you're an adult, you can look back at those things and, and, and remember that, that that person's still inside of you.

Yes.

Still there, you know, you can still persist, you can still take chances.

Yeah.

And it will be okay.

And we, we all need that feeling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What is the, what's the, as an adult now, like what.

What is the last like risk that you took that you, afterwards you were like, oh my gosh, I did that.

Oh, well, on May 2nd, it'll be 15 years, um, since I moved from New Hampshire.

Okay.

I lived on this beautiful little lake in this adorable little house, but I needed more social and cultural experience and it was a very isolated little house.

Um, and so I took my two cats, packed us all up, and we moved to Northern Virginia, just outside dc and honest to god, Kristen and I still can't believe I did it.

My family doesn't move.

We don't go anywhere.

Yeah, mine doesn't either, but I'm gonna someday.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, they're still in Massachusetts and New Hampshire and, and here I am down here and, and I still can't believe I did it, but I did because it was what I needed to do.

And you know what?

It was the best decision I ever made.

I.

Oh good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm just so proud of myself.

I mean, I love that, you know, I know women who've been in China in the Peace Corps and all this sort of thing, and that heck of a lot bigger deal than moving a few states south.

But I don't care.

It's it, that was like my Mount Everest.

Yes.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

That's so good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is scary.

That's a big, huge, and, you know, huge thing.

I mean, think about it.

You take a risk anytime you apply for a job.

Yeah.

You take a risk every time you're in a social, social situation and, and you decide to talk to someone you don't know.

Um, you know, children take a risk when they, they try to make a new friend.

I mean, there are just so many ways in which if, if you haven't ever taken them.

You, you're gonna stay in a job you hate because you're afraid to, to leave, you know?

Yeah.

Um, you're not gonna move to that new city.

Yes.

Yeah.

We, we, that's so essential.

Need to be less risk aversive.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think as a child growing up, I took a lot of risks.

I mean, because I grew up in the eighties and nineties and it was like.

It was okay to play outside your house and not have your parents know where you are at all.

Oh, never.

They never knew.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I rode a bike, so like I would ride my biker around the neighborhood all day.

There was one time where I was riding the, a bike in my best friend's driveway.

I was like a fifth grader, maybe fourth grade.

I don't know.

I fell, I broke my wrist.

Oh, but.

I didn't wanna go home because I, I would have to go to the hospital and so I just played all day.

I rode my bike all day with a broken wrist.

Wow.

And I, I know, I just like, and I, when I had to stop, 'cause you know, like back in the nineties or early nineties, there was only like one hand break.

On the bike and I had to reach over, I remember with my right hand to squeeze the brake going down the hill so I wouldn't crash.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then my mom, I got home and I was like, I think I broke my wrist.

And my mom was like.

When, and I was like, well, like at eight o'clock this morning.

And she's like, you did not break your wrist if it's, if it was eight o'clock this morning.

And then, um, I, she ended up having to take me in a few hours later 'cause she got home and it was like swollen.

Yeah.

And oh my gosh.

And I had to have cast and everything.

I mean, sometimes we do pay consequences.

We do, we take, you know, but we learn from those.

Yeah, I, um, I was remembering as you were talking about that I was remembering, um, I was down the road, you know, around the corner.

My parents had no idea where I was and I had climbed a tree.

I.

I didn't know that I was afraid to climb back down.

Oh no.

Which has taught me not to climb ladders in my, you know, yeah.

Later years.

Um, I couldn't get back down.

I was just stuck up there and paralyzed and, oh, the grouchy neighbor from across the street came running over, what are you doing up in that tree?

And, you know, she, she really laid into me.

But, you know, um, now I have a funny story to think about.

Absolutely right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, oh my goodness.

I took a risk.

It didn't pay off quite to the extent that I would've liked, but I did get up.

It was a 50% success.

Oh my goodness.

Okay.

So if you could, so like if you had an early childhood educator who was like.

Okay.

Listen to this and said, okay, I know it's so essential.

Now, what baby steps would you tell them to take to, let's just go with roughhousing.

Like what are some baby steps that they can take to ensure that children have the opportunities to roughhouse?

In their programs, you know, just bring out the mats and, and see what happens.

Um, uh, it, again, it's, it's Mike Huber, I think, who says just take those baby steps and, and when nothing terrible happens, you know, you'll be encouraged to go a little further with it.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's, it's okay.

It's gonna be okay.

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, it, it, and we, he also.

Um, videotapes the children.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, in the book, every chapter has a, in my book, why Play Every Chapter has partnering with Parents, which was my wonderful editor's idea because we so often have to, um, you know, convince parents of the need for things like this, right?

Yeah.

And so he, um, videotapes them on the mat playing rough and tumble.

And the parents end up really moved by the joy and excitement they see in their children.

So whenever you can show parents or another teacher or a director or whatever it might be, um, how much the children benefit from these things, how much they enjoy them, then.

You've got, you know, a lot on your side.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yes.

I think that that's so important in order to have buy-in from the parents.

Yes.

And I think that that's like a Butterfly Hill.

One thing that I made sure is that parents in the parent handbook know that children take, like we.

We embrace risk at Butterfly Hill.

Yes.

And we embrace rough and tumble play and we embrace big body play.

And so they don't, there's no surprises when Exactly.

When we do pull out the mats and send them videos of children wrestling.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Yeah.

And these days, you know, it might not be a handbook or a brochure.

But it should be messaging on a website, on your website, you know, if, if you own a private preschool or childcare center.

Um, so they know what your philosophy is, you know, because you don't want them to walk in and see the children wrestling like a bunch of little kittens, you know, all over a mat and have them say, why are they not learning to read?

Right.

You know?

Um, yeah.

But then you can use that as, as an example of how they have to develop their large muscles before their small muscles and, you know, reading and the writing and all of that.

So, absolutely.

Oh my goodness.

Um, okay, so your book is called Why Play?

How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education.

Yeah.

Um, where can people get it at?

Uh, well, you know, the typical places Amazon, but it's published by Teacher's College Press.

The, um, the price is the same, I think.

So I would go to Teacher's College Press.

However, your listeners, if they go to Teacher's College Press, will get a 20% discount between what, March and June, March 1st and June 31st, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And just use the discount code.

PB 20.

Yes.

All uppercase PBL two zero, and I'll put it in the show notes as well with the link to Teachers College Press so that you can find it.

That's pretty easy.

Remember, PBL Play based learning?

Yes.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, Ray, it's always a pleasure.

Same here.

And uh, I'm sure I'll have you back 'cause you know, there's probably another booking in there somewhere.

I don't know think, I think 23 is plenty, don't you?

Yeah, that's a lot.

One was a lot for me.

Yeah.

I don't know how you can do that many.

I love to write and when, when Sarah, my editor contacted me from Teachers College Press and asked me to do this, I thought, eh, you know, I don't think so.

I think I'm done, but.

There's that little yeah.

Writer in me that can't seem to say No.

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do.

You've just got so much knowledge and so much.

Oh, you know, it's just that I'm old passion that like I'm really old and I've got a lot of experience at this point.

You need to maybe think about full retirement instead of semi-retirement.

That would be nice.

Yeah.

My ship's coming in.

I can feel it.

Yeah.

What are you gonna do to play when you retire fully?

Oh my goodness.

Oh, well, one of the reasons I moved here, as I said, was for most social and cultural.

Yeah.

Um, now, see, I, yeah.

I, my friend and I, my friend next door, Paul and I, we go to the theater a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Live theater.

I love live theater.

Yeah, I do too.

I've got a pond down the road that I will walk around and the ducks and the geese and the birds to look at and all of that.

And you know, I mean, I like some sedentary things, like reading.

I lot of novels and I crochet and, you know.

Yeah.

Um, there, there, there are lots of things.

What's your, what's your favorite, um, musical that you've ever seen?

I.

Uh, we went to the Kennedy Center to see the Lion King.

Mm.

I've never seen the Lion King.

Oh, it was astonishing.

I bet.

And these great big.

Animals.

Animals, you know, they just make them, I mean, there are people under them.

Um, the elephant, I was sitting on the aisle and the elephant showed up right beside me.

They come down the aisle and I was like, oh my, my gosh.

It was just, oh, it was just incredible.

I'll have to go, I'll have to see that at some point.

Is it still on Broadway in New York City?

Do you know?

I don't know.

I have no idea.

Yeah.

Hmm.

My favorite musical ever is Moulin Rouge.

We saw that at the Kennedy Center also.

So good.

It fell head over heels in love with the head guy.

The plain guy.

He was brilliant.

Oh, it was so good, wasn't it?

Yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And we're going for what might be the last time, um, in a couple of weeks.

Oh.

Which one?

Maybe this.

We're gonna go see River dance.

Ooh.

Talk about joy.

Yeah.

Um, so much life and, and, and just we saw them last year.

Just, yeah.

It just, it made us so happy that we had to go again.

Oh my gosh.

And those river dancers would not be doing what they're doing now if they did not have rough and tumble and big and bo big body play when they were little.

No.

That, that's the thing, you know, you can't just, um, decide at age 12 or something to start moving and, and, you know, yeah.

And, and develop all those skills and muscles and, and joints healthy.

It, it has to start in early childhood.

Absolutely.

You know, we have to remember how excited we are when they take that first step.

Yeah.

And there's a reason why we're excited.

It's because they're developing as they should and that development doesn't stop after they take their first step.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ah.

Well thank you so much, Ray, for being here.

I appreciate you always and just love, love spreading your knowledge out into the world 'cause it needs to be out there.

Thank you.

Thank you for being willing to do that.

I appreciate it.

Oh, you're welcome.

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