Modern world doesn't acknowledge, but in our time many yearn to break free of a prison of flat secular materialism.

Wait, wrong podcast.

But if you aren't already listening to Lord of Spirits, you definitely should be.

The modern health paradigm is just as beholden though to materialism.

We're constantly bombarded with Wellness trends, diet fads, and self optimization strategies, but very few consider health through the lens of Orthodox Christianity.

This podcast, Here to Change that, will dive into topics like fasting, prayer, stress, nutrition, and even physical training, and while staying rooted in the timeless wisdom of the Church.

Each episode will break down key health topics from an Orthodox perspective, bringing in guests, whether they're priests, health professionals, or experts in traditional wisdom, to help us navigate the practical and spiritual aspects of true.

Well-being welcome to Orthodox health the podcast.

We explore the intersection of Orthodox Christianity, physical health, mental well-being and spiritual growth.

I'm Doctor Michael Christian, joined by my Co host John, and we're excited to take this journey with you.

So grab a cup of coffee, lots of cream, coconut for fasting and let's get started.

Blessed.

Is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked?

For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Welcome back to the Orthodox Health Podcast.

I'm Doctor Michael Christian.

And I'm your Co host John, we're glad to have you here with us for a continuation of our much needed arc on feminine orthodoxy.

That's right.

You've been tracking with us over these last few episodes.

You know that we just wrapped up a powerful entry point into our women's arc.

We opened with Catherine Phillips diving into healthcare access, prevention, and how public health shapes what women are actually experiencing in the system.

But today, we're pivoting from policy to the personal the newborn cries, diaper changes, the spiritual dryness and liturgical grappling matches.

Absolutely.

We're going to be talking about new motherhood, Orthodox conversion, and what it means to try and fast or pray when your entire life just feels like one big holy blur.

That's right.

And to help us do that, we're joined by a friend, Gwen Hopmaster, a recent convert Orthodoxy and a new mother walking through that beautiful, chaotic season.

Firsts first baby, first Lent, first Paska, and First time trying to survive Divine Liturgy with a wiggly infant in arms.

And she's graciously agreed to open up and share what that's been like for her.

Absolutely, Mike.

And as you mentioned, Gwen is a recent convert and is a neophyte in the best sense of the word, New in the faith, new in the rhythms of the church, and learning what it looks like to find Christ not just in the stillness, but in the exhaustion, the mess, and in the motion.

And honestly, same here.

John and I both have toddlers, so this episode is not about coming from the mountain top, it's about coming from the back of the nave next to the diaper bag with snacks on the floor.

So whether you're a mom trying to pray between feedings, a dad pacing the narthex with a fussy baby I know all about that, or someone who's just trying to make sense of how spiritual life adapts to the real world, this one is for you.

That's right.

Let's get into it.

Hi, Gwen.

How are you doing tonight?

Hi, I'm doing well.

How are you?

We're doing great.

So we always start with the question, and this one in particular is in a new convert is how did we get here?

What made you look into Orthodoxy, and in particular, since this is the Orthodox Health Podcast, was there anything on the health medicinal end that was really driving you in this direction?

Yeah, so I guess I had a long and crooked path towards the Orthodox Church.

I was raised in more of an atheist household.

I really experimented spiritually through university and through all sorts of different spiritual experiences until finally I reached a point where life was just so hard that I started to read the Gospels and I started attending some Protestant churches.

And when I found out that I was having a son with my husband, I started thinking about how to raise him, how to give him the best life possible, and how to avoid any of the tumultuous things that can happen in a Protestant church.

The church I was at had a priest or not a priest.

I've been Orthodox long enough now that I think everybody's a priest.

I guess they had a pastor who he would leave like one Sunday out of the month because he was in some sort of military reserves.

And on that Sunday there would be a guest pastor.

And those feeling of the church was so completely different.

It felt like a different church entirely when the pastor wasn't there.

And I became really frightened by that.

And I wanted something that would be steadfast and unchanging for my son so that he wouldn't be LED astray into something that we hadn't tried to teach him or bring him into.

And so I started looking into the Orthodox Church and the rest is history.

Thank God.

I mean, it is scary when something so would say fundamental as the liturgical worship.

I know a lot of Protestant churches aren't necessarily liturgical, but the engagement and the community life and all the things that center on our life with each other in the church can hinge on that one person like that.

And in Orthodoxy, thank God, we have a strong foundation that's timeless, and it's for everybody, regardless of who is wearing the vestments or who's in the pews.

It's Christ eternal.

Oh, John, let's not be talking about pews in the Orthodox Church.

We're going to open a can of worms there.

And my church doesn't even have pews.

I was actually struggling for the word to use for that because there's chairs but they're not really.

Pews.

That's fair.

Yeah.

So you have some benches around the edges.

That's about what we have.

Here we recently actually did have to explore what it's like to be in an Orthodox Church with pews.

We went to a Greek church because we moved not long ago and it is far harder to have a toddler in the pews.

I've learned then actually, actually in the traditional standing churches, Oh my gosh, he went wild.

All of our church toys didn't work anymore because they were wood too so.

That's interesting.

I had always assumed that it would be a little easier because I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church with pews, and I always felt like I was kind of confined as a kid.

And I know my son is a little ball of energy and with no pews he's just zipping and zooming and it's hard to keep track of him and you don't want to lock him down because then he gets frustrated.

But I don't know, I always assumed the opposite would be the case.

Oh.

Yeah, that's an interesting experience.

We actually found that in the pews.

My son just wanted to escape the pews constantly and wanted to bang on the pews.

And then they have books, they're actually with the liturgy in them.

He's learning about flipping pages in big boy books and he's not always using his gentle hands.

And so there was just so many more elements.

Whereas when we're standing, he's up, he's down, or he's being held, things like that.

That can be exhausting.

But at least it's carpet.

It's not as loud.

There's a rug under him.

There's other kids that are nearby and they're able to move more freely, which I actually, it's been a massive relief for me to have him back at a church without pews.

Absolutely.

So to that point, what was it like entering the church then while also becoming a new mother for the first time?

Yeah, I started attending the Orthodox Church when my son was six months old.

So it was this interesting transition of trying to figure out like, OK, do I wear a baby carrier?

Do I throw him on the ground?

He doesn't want to do that yet.

He couldn't crawl.

He couldn't do anything.

And my husband was working on the weekend, so I had to tackle it alone.

So a lot of it was just trying to feel comfortable actually having your baby in the service with you and seeing all of these other people who are being so kind.

That's the wonderful thing about the Orthodox Church that I found is that there's going to be all of these grandmas in the service.

We look back when your baby makes a noise and says don't worry about it, it's fine.

Or when the my baby for a while, when we would sit down for the homily, we would all sit on the floor cross legged.

And he started discover that he could bite people.

And so he leaned over and bit the knee of another parishioner sitting next to me.

I was horrified.

Just Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

And they just laugh.

And obviously I restrained him after that.

And we've learned not to bite other parishioners knees.

For now.

Yeah, now he has more teeth.

It'd be so much worse, but it's a more relaxed atmosphere.

And I cannot tell you how many times I heard when I was still inquiring.

Even if the church isn't crying, it's dying.

And it was this comforting phrase over and over.

I'm like, what do we want you here?

Like this is a good thing.

Like you should be here and so should he.

Beautiful.

Yeah, I know.

At least for us, it was always the same sort of experience because when our little one was born, it was like the whole church was in anticipation of him coming.

And there was this great joy that he was born.

And when my wife was waiting to be churched and him come in, everyone was always asking how is she?

How is he doing it?

It's just like you said, there's just this real U swell of love and care that's just so organic.

It's not forced and you really do feel like being a parent in the church is just so welcoming and natural.

It's not like you're a disruptive force there at all.

It's like you said, if it's not crying, it's dying, you know, and thank God, that attitude, you know, at least in our parish, a lot of people are getting married, people are having kids, you know, the, the church is growing because of that love.

So thank God.

Amen.

And I can cosign to that because when his son was being born, I happened to be up in New York during Western Easter visiting family and got to go visit the church at the time.

And his wife was still get about ready to pop any day now.

And everybody was super pumped and she was getting the superstar treatment there.

So I can cosign on that that's.

So wonderful.

It really is a massive difference, I think.

And one of the big things that changed for us as being new to the church is that no matter where you're starting out, it's awkward in the beginning and you don't know anybody and you don't know what to do.

But when we were preparing for baptism, I asked a lovely couple in our church to be the godparents for my son.

And that was just the most massive difference.

It was immediately being welcomed into a family at that point.

They would take him around the service when I was overwhelmed and show him the icons and help him learn how to walk in the service and everything.

Maybe a tiny bit disruptive in some ways, but they were so overjoyed to be a part of his life and to help his life be a of the parish life.

And it just is such a warm feeling being so connected to a community like that, especially cross generationally.

And I felt like that was something we really gained from that godparent dynamic that you don't necessarily gain when you're just attending another Protestant church, something of that sort where you just attend and you're 1 of many.

But this really connects you deeply into the family life of the church.

Absolutely.

At this point, I've accumulated quite a few godchildren, way more than I should for having been in the church for by the time this episode drops, actually six years, it'll be the day after my six year anniversary.

I was received on the elevation back in 2019.

And so to that point, there's something about that where both the godparents for our children and then being them ourselves, it's such a special relationship you have with them where you're helping them to grow.

And I have, we've got children from a year and a half years old to 41 years old.

So it's even a joy for those ones.

And get to shout out Kyle all the time there.

Although we did say the next time we brought him up was the fact that he's punched now one, half, two out of four of my family members in the face in the last two weeks.

That's right, he punched me in the face and then he punched my daughter in the face at church.

Mind you, man, I don't know what I was thinking of accepting him as a godson.

He may have been opening the door to prevent another child from running out and she just happened to be behind him and whacked him.

But I had to pull out the dad voice and be like, why don't you punch your God sister?

Enough of that.

Oh.

My gosh, he was the one.

That said, I had to bring it up again next time on the show, so he knew it was coming.

Ours happened at jiu jitsu.

So OK, so you said that you was almost six months old when you came into the Church, so you didn't really have a chance to experience the liturgical life prior to becoming Orthodox.

During your inquiry phase, have you been doing any kind of fasting or anything else?

So myself, I had a really long Inquirer phase before I actually stepped foot, and I do not recommend that to anybody.

I always try to tell people no, don't try and get the book knowledge.

But as I've repeated on the show before, is that I found about Orthodoxy while I was working my doctoral thesis and was like, I want to learn about this stuff.

I'm going to switch my thesis to this and I'm going to read all the things I don't need yet.

Because of that, I then started doing the fasts and I'd have been intermittent fasting for 10 years at that point.

So for me it was like, all right, well, this is what we do.

OK, cool.

I'm going to start doing this.

So the fasting, the prayers, I started doing all that.

Any of that.

Was there any part of our rhythms that you were trying to incorporate yourself prior to come to the church?

No.

Absolutely none.

Honestly I had no idea what to expect.

I did 0 research, all I did was look up on the Internet where an Orthodox Church was in my area because I had just this inkling.

And I went and I met with the priest before attending and I asked him some questions.

But really I went in open minded but with absolutely no idea what I was getting into.

After the first liturgy, I completely was enamored and I knew at that moment I wanted to convert, but I had no idea what that meant.

And it really was a long process of I just started catechesis.

Catechesis started like the week after I began attending too.

So it really was well timed and I just started learning everything through the natural process of attending the classes and learning and asking questions.

But even at the point when I began attending, I was still breastfeeding and I still am.

So my fasting life has been nothing like I wish it could be.

And I've had to navigate that a bit where sometimes I get a little over zealous and I really want to start fasting more than maybe I should.

And I feel the repercussions pretty quickly and then I have to renegotiate again.

Because when you're converting, you're so excited, you want to do everything.

You want to do it to the fullest.

But there are some things in life that you have to take slowly, and you can't compromise your health or your child's health in order to just be really excited and do everything to the fullest.

Because that's not always what it means to be a woman in the church either.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

No, it's beautiful.

I think to that point about breastfeeding specifically and that that not being able to fast during that process of those years, that's probably months, I suppose.

How long do children breastfeed?

No.

It's years collectively between the pregnancy and the postpartum period, and depending on how long they're able to produce milk for, it could be upwards of two years after.

So that's a three-year swing per kid.

Theoretically.

Potentially.

Wow.

OK, Yeah.

See, I don't have a very good grasp on that because my son didn't latch, so he did not want to breastfeed.

So I don't know exactly, but yeah, three years.

I mean, that's a three-year period of being on call on demand.

You have to be there to feed your child and that's a really serious form of asceticism, serving the other.

When you're sick, you're not expected to fast the same way because you're already suffering in this other way.

And I mean, I'm not saying that breastfeeding is suffering, although I know it is very difficult, but it's very hard and it's ascetic in its own right.

Well, and.

That's it.

With our fasting, we are trying to create that suffering such that we're able to handle it at a later point.

Now it is not hormesis in the sense we've talked about it before, but it essentially is like it's not just about the Physiology, but it is a way of tempering the body to use our jujitsu and striking analogies like we do all the time where it's hardening the body.

It's getting you used to suffering.

We're not a prosperity gospel kind of ideas that it's not always going to be sunshine, rainbows.

Christ did not promise that.

He promises a cross that we have to pick up.

And so that's the part we always trying to be into our Protestant friends that would know we're not earning our salvation by this.

If we're not doing this, we're hurting ourselves.

It's such a ability to grow into that.

Then that comes with the caveat, like you said, with sickness, especially as we're getting older, the elderly populations who have some real chronic things.

Fasting can be very beneficial for those particular issues, but it doesn't have to be the extended time fast.

It doesn't mean you have to deprive yourself a nutrients.

We're not trying to be anorexic here.

We're not trying to starve ourselves because that gets into pride in a whole bunch of different areas.

But what we are trying to do is be mentally and spiritually tough in that spiritual warfare such that we are able to handle suffering when it's presented otherwise.

Because if you are always being handed things on a silver platter, when you end up getting that sickness, you're not prepared for it.

So now you're a turn around and curse God because how could you let this happen?

Jumping.

Off of that, I actually have another question that I'm interested in from your perspective because this is an area where I know during my wife's pregnancy and postpartum, postpartum specifically is what I want to ask about.

She did a lot of research into that before having to go through it.

And I'm curious to know your perspective on the church's hospital, in what way that it had an effect on your postpartum recovery and how being in the church, participating in the liturgical rhythms helped you deal with that.

Or, or I'll leave it to you to explain, but I'm interested to know that certainly.

Yeah, I would say since I started going to the Orthodox Church when my son was six months old, it is a little bit of that later postpartum period that you're looking at there, which I know can still be a time when women are adjusting, when it's lonely, when it's hard, especially in this modern day where a lot of women who decide to stay home with their children and very isolated.

And if you're going into an Orthodox Church, you're attending liturgy, perhaps there's other services you're also attending.

You are still a part of these rhythms that everyone in the church is a part of during that time when you might feel isolated.

It's something that I feel connects a woman back into a greater community when that's something we're greatly lacking in this day and age.

I would say I wish that when my son was born, I had been in the Orthodox Church already because it was a very difficult circumstance.

After his birth, he was in the NICU for a month and it was incredibly difficult.

And something I think back on a lot is how might that have been?

How might I have endured that better with what I know now?

Like how could I have endured that suffering in a way that was more beneficial rather than just what felt like it was completely overwhelming and destroying to my life.

It could have been something that I I could have seen in this very different light.

And now I always wish I could go back.

Not that I would want to relive that, but I could do it differently and feel things very differently than I did at that time.

And I can imagine the support that a church like the Orthodox Church would lend to a woman in that position.

Absolutely.

And that's kind of what we were saying there is that it does help in my long jumbly rant of how it can help to solidify yourself in that you can help to be that stabilizing force in the chaos because you have people there, absolutely.

And I would say my Protestant church also was good support during that time.

There were wonderful people bringing us meals, and we wouldn't have made it as well through that time without them either.

And that's the support that community and church lends to people's lives in all sorts of shapes and forms.

But I do feel there's such a fullness of prayer that I experienced now as Magogox Christian that I so greatly would have benefited from during that time of struggle that I did not have back then.

Oh.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's not to denigrate our our Protestant brethren too, too much.

It's a situation.

I mean, I know with Jeff, we were talking about it two weeks ago about how he went to a church for 10 years and never once met the pastor.

And it's a situation where, to be clear, that can happen in Orthodox churches there, especially some of the bigger ethnic ones, like the Greeks in particular, have some really large churches.

We might have 500 parishioners at your church, and good luck.

I mean, having said that, I've heard the stories of Father Josiah having 1000 people at his church and he knows every single one of their names, which is just scientifically difficult because there's the argument that once you cross 150, you can't know anybody.

You kind of start losing track of them.

But from what I think I've heard from personal anecdotes of Father Josiah, he knows everybody.

And so it's just phenomenal.

But to that point, there is something different in the Orthodox Church where that community really does line up and just really come and see it.

That was something that my wife really the experience and that was one of the major selling points.

And I think we, Brent mentioned that when we had Brennan on her godmother, we did our first foray into the Women's Health arc and by arc it was 1 episode.

But she was one of the ones who really just came out and just welcomed her so much and it was something she had never experienced before in any church period, so I do.

Think that there's the godparents when you come back to it again and again, that is what facilitates such a wonderful conversion experience.

And if I could have redone any part of my catechism, I would say that it would be.

I would have picked my godmother Sinner and my son's godparents earlier because it was so wonderful once they were attached to our family and we gained family members.

We've even moved across the state.

And since we've only been here a few months, they've already come to this end.

They've already been so connected and it's a relationship we're never going to lose.

And really, it is hugely different.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

My my older girls got parents when they moved.

They were still attending our church because there are two in the Northwest Arkansas area.

There's one in Northwest Arkansas proper that's OCA.

And there's another OCA down in the River Valley.

And that one is technically closer to them.

So they have unfortunately had to shift down.

But we still have had a relationship with them.

Since when?

We've gotten to see her godmother at least several times since.

So it's it's great.

And my daughter loves spending any time that you can with her.

Yeah.

I would say to the point that you made earlier about the large churches.

That is something I've personally experienced.

Now since we moved, we've been looking for a new home parish.

And my husband, he is still learning about a lot of this and he has now had this wonderful insight of going to an Aneochian parish, a Greek parish and an OCA parish while he's still inquiring.

And so we did have the experience in the Greek church, though, where it is such a large parish that every time I would go up for communion that he wouldn't remember my name.

And coming from a smaller parish and going into that situation, it's that relationship with the priest that felt a little more distant.

And so we kept looking and we did end up back at an OCA parish because my son and I were baptized in an OCA parish.

And it's just really what brought us back, I think, is the music.

The singing in the OCA parish is very different it.

Definitely is because it comes with the Slavonic.

Generally it's up to the choir director, obviously, but it's generally Slavonic and then in English, but the style is slightly different.

And then the way that the American tone applies to it, yeah, it's definitely a different thing because I know the Antiochians use a very Byzantine style chant.

So yes.

Yes I'm up in New York but I still have yet to hear the Appalachian tone in person and I long for it.

I've heard video and and audio on the phone, the Internet of it, but I just really would love to hear a choir sing in the Appalachian tone in person.

It's just so beautiful, so.

Our choir director, Johnny has been trying to petition and follow John to let him do it.

The crisis has risen, but it would have to be outside of the proper timing, is what he said.

So we, we haven't done it yet, but I'm, I'm hoping maybe next year, like after a service, like long after a service, get the choir out with it.

So.

We've talked a little bit about the liturgical life in the Church.

We've talked a lot about prayer and our life in the church proper, like in the building.

I want to ask a little bit about what prayer life and living as an Orthodox mom has been like at home since having your child.

So I'm sure you have experienced, you know, the interruptions during your prayer.

You're trying to focus and be still, and the baby monitor starts blaring.

And what's that been like?

Absolutely.

You sound familiar with it, too.

One of the big things that we started doing as a family to help with some of the frustration about interruption, my husband's been so wonderfully supportive with this is we do morning and evening prayers together as a family.

We do a shortened version in front of our icon wall and we do it all together.

And it can be a little chaotic and sometimes our small person doesn't want to stay still or do exactly what we're doing, but we always stick with that and sometimes feels a little bit shorter than they should be, but it makes it so we do it together as a family.

And we model that first son.

His favorite part is at the end we venerate the cross and he likes to hold it and kiss it himself or kiss the icons.

And now he kisses everything.

So it's he's a little confused.

But then honestly, a lot of my prayer happens after everyone else is asleep.

I have another small icon corner that's in the bedroom so I can keep an eye on the small person, make sure everything's good there, and also just do my longer prayers.

And I know when everybody's more deeply asleep.

So I am able to do it with a little bit less interruption and really focus more inward on my prayer life instead of just the family prayer life.

But I do think having the family prayer life makes it feel more like what I'm doing is like extra credit in the evening.

Not that it is, but it feels like that.

And but I started with just one prayer and originally that I would do additionally in the evenings.

And from there I was just, well, this prayer is so beautiful too.

I need to keep going to this one.

Oh, this one's so beautiful too.

Oh, I need to do one in the beginning and one at the end.

And then now I've got like 4 different books that I flipped through and it takes half an hour.

It's peaceful.

I took.

A similar trajectory to you.

And I think it took me a while to sort of parse that out and think maybe I should separate my personal prayer rule from the family prayer rule because for a while it was, it's night time time for evening prayer.

We're all going to do that.

And you're trying to read through the prayer book.

And like you said, there's these long prayers and little man's just not having it.

So took a shorter route with him.

There's two or three we do.

They're very simple and just like yours.

He loves to venerate the cross.

After he looks forward to it, he starts making a little kissing noise with his mouth and he points.

Exactly.

And then?

You go in the quiet by yourself and you have your reflective looking inward self prayer.

And it's better that because then everybody gets what they need in the dose that they need.

It's much more conducive to tranquility.

Absolutely.

And I would say for my husband, who's still inquiring as well, having it be those shorter prayers that we do together as a family has been really helpful.

Because it's not like me trying to beat him over the head with 16 different prayers that I want to get in because I've already done a little bit in the building up, in the building up.

So it's it's a much gentler approach, I think, for the entire family.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And that's one where in both John and my case there was a little bit of a convincing process to our wives.

And in both cases, though, we let them take their own time.

In my case, I was expecting to just have her get baptized in a non denominational Christian Church so we can get married.

And just that was going to be the case.

And what ended up happening in her case was that while we were going through premarital counseling, if you decided, Oh no, I want to become a catechumen like this Orthodox thing is where I'm at, like I'm in.

And so mine was a lot faster than a lot that I see in mixed marriage couples who wouldn't wear 1 converts.

And one's kind of there.

I was fortunate.

And that's respect.

But yeah, he's got to let them take their own journey.

And God willing, he's going to leave them home.

And that's the key.

And to that .1 question I had is you were talking about the veneration of the icons and everything either of your boys gone through the high five phase where they high 5 the icons?

Not yet over here, no.

Prior to really kiss venerating.

Yeah, both of my girls went through a hot phase where they were like, yeah.

And big old high 5.

I just took it that Jesus and the Saints that they they know it, but they're trying.

They they feel the love.

It's OK, that's.

Really sweet.

And Father John basically agree he's a gay.

I don't know what about it.

Yeah, I'll tell you what, there is little as fulfilling for me, I think, so far at least in educating my son about the prayer life.

It's so fulfilling to see him when he, I know he doesn't grasp the fullness of what's going on, but just to see him emulating and that it's something important enough that he should be doing it too.

And it's goofy the way they do things.

It's so cute when he does his cross, he just takes his finger and points at his head and it's like, OK, that's you got it, I guess.

And then he started doing prostrations recently, but he points at his head and then he puts his hands on the floor and bows his head down to the floor, but he's still like standing up on his feet.

So he's doing like a pyramid kind of thing.

And it's just, it's so funny, but I love it.

It's so fulfilling.

That is so sweet.

It really is wonderful.

I've had the thought a lot when I see my son kissing icons and these things that I've been learning as an adult.

And it's this massive learning curve for me.

And I'm looking at him and I'm like, he was baptized when he was about a year old.

And that's what a massively different life that will be for him and a different life in the church.

And getting to see him doing these things and his whole life, he's just going to continue doing this.

He's not going to have to relearn it as an adult or learn it for the first time.

I just think it's so sweet to see.

He's really excited about kissing a lot of things now, though.

So we're going to have to focus our narrow in our focus at some point, Yeah.

That's beautiful.

So what do Sunday mornings look like?

The whole process of getting ready for you.

You were talking about how you have your familial prayers and how you try and get everything done.

What does it look like the first?

Thing that really has to happen is the little person must be fed because just it can go all sorts of sideways if he doesn't get fed properly and on time.

And a lot of the time we'll be rushing about what we trying to get ready, doing everything we need to do.

And our church that we're attending now is about 30 to 40 minutes away from us, so we're loading him up, doing everything, trying to get prayers in while he's trapped in his high chair, which is right next to the icon wall.

So we feel pretty OK about that.

But most of the time it's just pure chaos.

It doesn't calm down until we're in the car.

And lately my brothers live in the same town as us, so we've been picking them up and bringing them with us as well.

I just got a van recently that I've been calling the church bus because it's going to be just everybody load up and all the different stops and then you make it there.

The Ortho mobile that's so.

Much better.

But yeah, I absolutely understand that the cyclone is real Sunday morning.

For a while it changes because now with every day the babies are getting older, so they're schedules are a little different depending on how developed they're getting.

So there was a time where our son would take a nap before Liturgy.

It just worked out perfect that way because he would wake up around 6:00 AM.

Liturgy is at 10, so by 9 he's passed out.

And then he sleeps in the car the whole way.

And then he wakes up at Liturgy.

Perfect.

Not anymore.

So that nap is out, he'll eat and he'll be super shot.

And as soon as we get to liturgy and already kind of fussy.

So it's kind of hit or miss now.

But that whole cyclone of just getting there, I absolutely understand.

At least for me as as the father, I just feel like I'm like the director.

It's all right, let's get him dressed.

Are you ready to go?

What's everyone doing?

How much things do we have left to do?

The cars running TikTok TikTok, but I've been assured by my priest to just calm down it's OK that this is normal you're not in trouble if you're a little late you have a small child, you're doing what you need to do so I did there's a lot of anxiety with it but I know I've been reassured that it's OK and I have some solace in knowing that just.

Make it before the homily.

Yeah, we have been known to run a little bit late too.

It's you always think you're running on time.

You're like, we woke up half an hour earlier today.

We're going to make it.

We're going to be there at the beginning.

And Oh my gosh, it really does get away from you.

And my son, for the longest time during liturgy, he would fall asleep.

He would like sleep in my arms so peacefully.

I was like, oh, this is going to be great.

He's always going to be the best baby in liturgy.

This last Sunday, he was giving me a literal run for my money, just just everywhere he could possibly go.

And they can be a handful, but it's worth it that.

Mine's His little sphere of influence has been expanding.

So he's there's like that little threshold.

They get a little away from you and they stop and they look back and they're like, all right, I'm at the edge here where I don't know if I should go any further.

Well, that edge just keeps going further and further away.

This Sunday, I literally was chasing him down the rows of people, apologizing as I go, I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

And he's looking over his shoulder laughing at me like, come get me.

I'm like right now, the consecration is occurring right now and you're making me run after you.

Please.

They have.

The best timing with all of it.

They always do.

Yeah.

My son has started poking everybody's skirts too.

If anyone has a pretty design, he'll come up and start poking ladies on there.

So that's real.

We're really trying to curtail that one too, but it's.

All such a blessing, it's so beautiful.

Absolutely.

So taking away from the blessing part though.

All right, What's your craziest?

I think I'm going to win this one.

I think I'm going to win this game.

I'll let you guys go for what's your craziest toddler experience then?

Well, you haven't had one.

You haven't had a real winner yet and they're.

All trying, but I think I've tried some midweek liturgy services where he just sprints back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, running up to icons, kissing them, the whole service.

And he hasn't been awful yet, though.

I mean, there's plenty of time left, OK?

John Yeah.

Crazy crazy 1 yet?

Anything.

Too crazy.

Just the standard running around chasing and capturing and recapturing over and over again.

But he did try to eat a wax candle last week.

Nice.

But other than that, he thought it was a snack.

It wasn't.

All right, so I mean, to be fair, I have two and I started earlier, so I have a lot more skin in the game on this one, literally when I tell this story.

But I'm definitely going to win.

So it was the week after my littlest one was born, and we were selected to be godparents to a pair of brothers.

How you doing?

Sam and Ollie, AKA James, they were getting received to the church.

They're being baptized.

And at that point, because my littlest one had been born, Casey was still out of the church.

It was still her 40 day window.

And I went to church with my older girl by myself, followed the day after the baptism.

Now as the godparents, you have your candle that you light with them the day before.

And I like to have it for the following three weeks.

I bring it back and have them as well.

So I'm holding a candle and we're getting ready to be the point of who's about to start.

So the Euchre's about to come out and all of a sudden we smell fire and I smelt it very very quickly because I happened to notice that my older girl and her beautiful beautiful Shirley Temple curls has decided to catch fire.

Now me having years of martial arts experience and lots of quick reflexes, immediately Swats played it out before I went any further.

Now the funniest part of that was because there was the baptism day before and they had to obviously burn a little bit of the hair as part of the child's offering.

And for those of you who are new to the faith or have not been to Orthodox baptism, I should probably clarify because they cannot offer prayers verbally and they cannot ascend into all other things.

We as godparents are doing the ascent for them verbally, but they have to give up an offering too.

So they give up three pieces of their hair and it's burnt in the sensor.

So there is a burning hair smell that will occur during a baptism, but the priest and the altar servers were unaware that my older girl's hair had caught fire.

There's no way that it still smells like burning hair from from the baptism yesterday.

So yeah, that was because she had kicked her hair back.

She wanted to see a different icon while I'm holding this candle and had insisted I was holding her.

So the yeah, you're lucky that you never burned the kids hair yet.

God willing, never occurs.

But toddlers are a thing, and Needless to say, the very next week, Casey was recharged.

So she didn't make it her full 40 days because of that.

Yeah.

And that has not happened to our son, but it has happened to one of the altar servers at our parish.

I don't know, maybe a year ago he was during the procession with the Eucharist.

He had his head down, kind of hovering over the candle.

His hair was kind of long at that point, and it just went right.

They put it out quick and the procession continued on like nothing happened, but it was just like, oh, did you see that?

Yeah, that happened.

But it is kind of scary.

It happens quick.

It really.

Does it's like that running?

Joke that goes around the Orthodox.

We just love to drink wine and play with fire.

Sounds about right.

That meme floats around every so often as Paska shows up.

Does your parish have the Blessed wine post Eucharist?

Like so when you're getting your ante during the bread, do you have blessed wine as well?

We have.

It at the OCA parish we're at now.

And we did it.

The one I was baptized at the Greek church, no.

And then the Antiochian, no.

So so have you.

Let your son try the blessed wine yet.

He tried it when we were back in our first parish, but he only had a little zip, of course.

Yeah, I'm not letting them take down the whole cup.

We actually have a whole little mini chalice.

I don't know what the proper term fruit would be.

It's, I don't know, looks almost like a measuring cup, but golden.

And yeah, we're going to take a little sip of that we had.

That at our home parish as well, and the new one we're at, it's just little Dixie cups, so it feels a little bit less holy.

It's still good.

Absolutely speaking.

Of the little ones, it's just one of my favorite things.

When it's time for communion and we would go up with the little guy.

He knows what's going to happen.

He looks forward to Communion, and he points towards the altar before they open the holy doors.

And he's going, he's like, oh, we're gonna eat.

I'm like, Yep, yes, we are that.

Is so sweet my son recently he because we were moving parishes he's got completely intimidated about taking communion for a while and.

For about a month or two, he refused any.

I would bring him up and he would just absolutely refuse to receive communion.

And it was just this past Sunday we had had the priest from our new parish.

He had come to visit us at home and my son had seen him in the home.

We were walking up and I was telling him, Father Timothy wants to give you a bite.

He wants to give you a special bite on a spoon.

We got up there and finally he he received communion again.

Yes, wonderful.

No, that's great.

And yeah, my girls are very much obsessed.

So not only with community itself, but they are very much so.

But that anteater, and there's another one where it's like bread.

So then they get through the phase of, I know I have to Sprint across the church again to get more bread after it's done.

And parish has actually expanded to the point that there was a period before he started cutting the bread smaller where it would run out because we've expanded tremendously.

I mean, right now we received 21 back in January and we already are up to 30 adult catechumens with probably another 15 or so children coming in tow.

Yeah, right now we have about 45 catechumens.

Wow.

That's amazing.

Five.

Oh yeah.

And when we first got here, there was maybe 80 on the roster total.

And we're we've definitely broken 200 at this point.

So it's pretty awesome.

Wow.

That is amazing.

I thought it was a massive group of people getting baptized at the same time as I did, and it was 18 of us total, including the kids.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

That was that was about it.

Yeah, we had 21 the last back in January, right after our.

Parish is about to have its biggest catechumen class to date.

It's going to be about 15 people.

It's so it's growing.

Thus far it's been 3 or 4 every couple months, but now it's just bang, 15.

So thank God.

Absolutely.

Gwen, what you think would be good advice, although I know we've touched on it here and there.

What would be some of the most important advice or things that you'd like to call to mind for new Orthodox mothers or just young women that are new in the church?

Yeah.

I would say to not be intimidated by coming into the parish with a child specifically.

It really is a welcoming environment.

It you really don't need to be so concerned about any noises that your child's making.

If they start screaming but like murder, maybe take them out.

That's to be expected.

But it's so it's OK to have to leave the liturgy for a little while to calm their child down, to give him a snack, to do what needs to be done.

Or you change the diaper, who knows, And then return to the service.

You might miss a little bit.

You have the rest of your life to hear every part of the service.

Something that was such a great comfort to me was that when I was struggling with my son wanting to be in the service, think about 90% of the time I would miss part or most of the homily because he just couldn't take it at that point.

But I would look to the older women in the church, like the grandmothers, the woman who had been through what I was going through now.

And we're now at this stage of life where they were able to be there fully and completely.

There were no distractions.

They were so focused on the service.

They were able to be there entirely.

And that's something to look forward to.

That doesn't have to be now because you'll miss what you're doing now then.

And now you'll want to be doing what they're doing.

So there's always something beautiful to look forward to.

But you should have still appreciate what you have.

And I remember speaking to my priest and he would reassure me saying this is part of what it is.

This is your liturgy.

When you have a child, there's a season you'll go through, and it's just as good that you're here.

You don't have to be in it for every single moment for it to count It's.

Beautiful.

I like that that that is your liturgy.

Just the way you're experiencing the liturgy is not like a second class kind of liturgy, obviously it's the same liturgy, just you're living it through the season you're in.

It's through your lens.

So my husband likes to say now whenever we're in the liturgy and my son is giving me a really hard time and doesn't want to go to dad, he looks at me and says this is your liturgy.

And that feels a little snarkier.

My goodness, it's funny.

Talking about what?

Not doing the outright just meltdown mode when they're just kind of being a little bit rambunctious, we shall say.

It's funny how you notice that opposite.

That's your kid who's going if for whatever reason, let's say the wife brings them out for something and now I'm in there by myself, I don't notice the other parents having the same struggle.

There's something about that.

So you notice your own kids.

And if she brings them out, then maybe I'll look over for a second to see if they're coming back.

And I might notice one of the kids doing the exact same thing I've been mentally freaking out on the entire time.

But my kids doing and it's oh, well, maybe it isn't just me.

So yeah, there's very much that idea of don't stress, like keep them wrangled for the most part, keep them mostly quiet.

At the same time, like you said before, that's the common refrain of there's no crying, the church is dying.

Absolutely, Absolutely.

And most people are very understanding too.

If your kid goes up and pulls their shoelace and you apologize, it's probably going to be OK.

They've probably dealt with it before if they've been Orthodox for a little while too, because they're used to having the kids in the service.

They're welcome there, right?

They're.

Not kicked off to Sunday school and said bye.

We'll see you later watching a Left Behind movie or something.

I'm curious, I have a question, so you mentioned about you and your husband being at liturgy when he says to you this is your liturgy.

I have just a funny thing.

I'm curious, does your son ever play mind games with the you guys or like try to sigh up you into getting what they want at Liturgy?

So mine, he knows for a fact if I'm holding him, he's not going anywhere.

Like he doesn't even try to go to the floor.

He's not going to ask to get put down.

But he what he'll do is he'll act all sad or broken up that he's not with mom and I'll start saying Mama.

He wants to go see mom.

But then once we give into it and we're like, oh, he just wants to give you a hug.

He loves you.

And then he points right to the floor.

As soon as he hit her arms, he's like down.

I see what you did there.

Do you have any of that going on with yours?

Absolutely.

I think he knows who the weak link is and it's definitely me.

And I'm once he's with me, he doesn't want to go back to Dad because Dad isn't going to put up with up and down and up and down and up and down and down, which I will because I just want him to not be too loud.

And so I love it when he's on the ground, though it's always been my favorite thing, just to see him start looking around by himself and hopefully not wandering too far.

Now, I'm presuming because I know they're both about a year and a half.

Neither of your sons are potty trained yet, right?

Yeah.

Wait till that one.

That's the fun one.

He's getting there.

OK.

They're potty trained.

I don't have to worry too much about it now they're not going to be running the diapers off to change the diaper and that's great and everything.

Oh no, because then you start getting psyoptimerogy of I need to go potty.

It's like, do you?

I don't think you do.

You just went like 10 minutes ago and then like, yo, I really like a pot.

And now it's like they're doing the little happy dance.

I'm like, I got to pee, I got to pee, I got to pee and like, all right, well, this is getting to be a little bit too much.

So you go bring them out and Nope, no pee.

Oh yeah, that's what I thought.

And then then you start doing the whole cried wolf and now you're like, no, I know you don't have to.

I know you don't have to.

I know you know darn well that's the time when they actually do have to.

And so he finally assigned and he'd go out there and you're like now, fortunately, my older girl who is body trained is very has very solid bladder control.

She actually even like trained herself night training, like she figured it out by herself.

And I mean, at this point we are now at a two week swing without an accident.

So 14 days without an accident.

I have the little chart up there.

I pulled the numbers off each day, right?

Sweet.

Yeah, I'm sure that there's going to be so many inventive strategies to get more entertainment.

That's not the liturgy once he's aging into different activities.

Right now, we still just have the emergency board book that gets pulled out once he gets a little bit too restless.

And we used to have this little wooden cross that he plays with, and he's had that since he was about 6 months old and was teething really bad.

And we wanted themed toys at least, so it wasn't just some random weird silicone thing or a crinkly book that would be a terrible one rattle.

But right now that at least it helps a little bit.

But this last Sunday he became obsessed with raisins part way through.

And all he wanted was the box of raisins and he wanted to throw them everywhere.

And he was just, Oh my gosh, it's always something.

We kind of touched on what advice you'd give to new mothers in general.

Yeah.

What I want to know is just what do you think is the single most important thing you've learned versus just, you know, I'm going to tell people this is what I think I should do.

What's the most important thing that you took home in this process of coming into the church as a new mother, as someone who was coming to the fate as an adult, you know, through that long journey.

And he said that you went through the college years, which we all did.

You know, I personally look back and say I'm not happy about that.

But what do you think is the most important thing you've learned in both of these seasons of your life of just coming into motherhood and coming into the church?

I would.

Say patience.

It's something that I I prayed for patience before I was even a Christian.

And God has given me a lot of opportunities to practice because I'm not very good at it.

It's something that I continually experienced in becoming a mother.

It's obviously something that both of you have gone through as well as they.

Your children will try your patients in every possible way.

And it's up to you to keep your calm.

And the same thing with entering the church in all sorts of ways.

Just learning because when I started at the Orthodox Church, I love to say a lot of the music and I didn't know a single thing.

It took a lot of patience with myself and my husband telling me, oh, just keep going.

You'll learn, you'll learn and you'll learn.

And eventually I'll learn the songs and my patients paid off.

Or patients with my son during the liturgy.

Or patients with not understanding other aspects of the Orthodox life.

Patients with myself and my body when I'm unable to be fasting in the way that I would like to.

All sorts of things that can all just be wrapped up in one tiny little bow of patients.

That's great.

Anyone do you want to add commentary on that?

I can.

I think she wrapped it up beautifully.

I think this is certainly going to be one of those conversations that's going to sit with me for a while, yeah.

Absolutely.

I think what stood out most is how honest it was.

Like there was no filter, no pretending.

It's about being a real mom who's trying to live out their faith in the middle of those midnight feedings.

Just losing time at the liturgy and all the grace that comes with surrender.

Absolutely.

And I hope that for any of you that are listening, who are in that season of their life, whether you're a mom, a dad, a catechumen, or a cradle Orthodox, you heard something today that reminded you, you are not alone.

Absolutely.

The church is for the tired, it's for those struggling, and it's for those who are showing up what spit up on their shoulders and a whisper of a prayer in their hearts.

Absolutely.

And that's not a second class orthodoxy.

That is the life of the Church, as Gwen had said, this is your liturgy, living liturgically inside your home, inside your heart, not just inside the nave, but when they're misbehaving.

And so I.

Take a big thank you to Gwen for joining us today and sharing her story.

It's definitely a different perspective than we've had.

We've had some catechumens before.

We've had newly illuminated, but Jeff was literally a couple of days out when he showed up.

And so it's one where that new mother's perspective is definitely something that I think our listeners are going to be very happy to hear.

So please keep her in your prayers as she continues her journey both in the church and in motherhood.

Absolutely.

And be sure to tune in with us next time, because we're going to be sitting down with Presbytera Marina Thornburg to keep the Women's Health arc going, and that one's going to be full of both theological depths and really a lot of practical wisdom.

Absolutely.

And if you didn't know anybody, you'd think that we were just stealing Catherine's guest list.

But it's funny because we had lined up with both Gwen and Presbyterian Marina before she officially released those episodes.

So it's kind of funny that we were doing that.

But we had the plans for the women's arc and we were probably going to be doing a bonus episode.

The way the organs are going to line up, we're going to be doing a bonus episode with Brennan and God willing, my wife are going to be joining for our Pecos episode.

And with Presbyterian Marina, we are going to be doing a lot of health related stuff as well because she is also a practitioner.

So I get double bonus on that.

It's another health mind as well as a Presbyterian, which is the first we've had.

We've had three priests on at this point, but we haven't had a priest's wife yet.

So it's going to be great to be able to get that perspective.

And as we said, this whole women's arc, we're going to be doing all women guests because John and I obviously are not women.

And we're going to be closing that out with Rachel Wilson, who's going to be the bridge between the women's arc and looking at feminism and looking at how that's affected modern society and how Orthodoxy is a counterpoint to that.

But also, it's going to lead right into our sacred diets arc, where we are going to be exploring all of the crazy, wonky ways that other religions have gotten into our dietary and health advice.

So that's going to be a real fun one after this women's arc.

So stay tuned, guys.

We got a lot planned moving forward.

So if this episode bless you though, we'd love for it if you would share it with a fellow parent and leave a review or tag us in your thoughts.

You can always find more at orthodoxhealth.com or wherever you follow us online.

Absolutely.

And until next time, just keep showing up, keep praying when you can, and trust that Christ is present, even and especially in the chaos.

Amen.

Christ is in our midst.

He isn't.

Always shouting.

That's right.

So see you next time on the Orthodox Health Podcast.

God Bless is available on Spotify, Apple Music, and all of your other favorite listening locations, and you can also find us available on YouTube at Doctor Michael, Christian Rumble at Orthodox Health and Sub Sack at Orthodox Health Podcast.

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Until then, stay strong in faith, take care of your temple, and keep Christ the center of your health journey.

God bless.

The.