We've been taught everything except how to be human.

Welcome to human school, where remarkable people turn raw, unfiltered experience into practical wisdom.

I'm Miles Adcox, and this podcast was born from the belief that you don't graduate from being human, you just get more honest about the lessons.

If you're ready to stop performing your life and start participating in it, you're in the right place.

This is human school where we finally learn what matters most.

Growing up under the spotlight isn't something most of us can easily relate to, but growing up through struggle, seeking identity, searching for meaning, and finding hope in our darkest moments is something a lot of us have felt.

Today's guest Joshua Bassett has been honest and open about the highs and lows of his journey with both his public and private life.

You might know Joshua from his Emmy winning role in High School Musical The Musical, The series from one of his many other creative endeavors.

Like his deeply honest music, that to me feels as much like a journal entry as it does a pop song.

Behind the success is a story that's far more nuanced, one of health crisis, public heartbreak, questions of identity, and a life changing emotional and spiritual journey.

His debut album, The Golden Years, captures the messy, beautiful story of being a creative in the public eye and a human navigating the ups and downs of young adulthood, proving that vulnerability is healing.

I admire the way he's choosing to share his story, inviting others into a conversation about mental health and spirituality, and the power of loving others without judgement.

I believe today's conversation will not only give us insight into Joshua's journey, but also into our own.

Please welcome someone whose story reminds us that it's never too early or too late to begin the brave work of becoming fully human.

Joshua Bassett.

Wow, what an intro.

Did Chachi BT write that or no?

No.

No, we spent some time on it.

Thank you so much.

I'm so happy to be here.

It's it's truly, I hate small talk.

So let's get into the deep stuff, you know?

Jump right off into the deep end.

Yes, Sir, I'm not much of a small talk guy either, but since this is the first time we're getting a chance to connect and through somebody I deeply respect and it sounds like you do as well or buddy Wesley and the best just I trust him and place.

He's like, you got to talk to this guy.

And then now I understood understand why I've spent the morning with your album top to bottom twice and I got to listen.

Well, you said I'd heard you say somewhere else that it it kind of takes you on a journey in that the sequence is almost like a five part narrative.

You didn't say that part and I added that part, but it feels like a screenplay that was written to go together in that way.

So it was easy, easy to follow.

A lot of times there's a few skip overs.

But then in that case I was like, oh man, I'm really, I feel like if you get into these lyrics, you're really getting his story.

And I will say for a young man that you've seen a lot of life so far, and I admire the way you're telling that story today.

And I'll start with, why do you feel like it's important for people to know all parts of you?

It feels like you're exploring these corners and you're sharing them out loud, which I think is really meaningful.

Why is it important to you?

Totally, Yeah.

I mean, I often say that I think, you know, vulnerability is always vulnerability.

And I also say in a project I'm working on that I can't explain what it is yet.

I say for every word you can't say to somebody, there's a degree of separation.

And so, you know, growing up, I think in my household, my parents were amazing, very loving, very kind, very wonderful.

But there was a bit of an emotional distance I felt and, and I, I really feel like that stunted me a bit, if that makes sense.

I was, I was homeschooled, you know, and so I didn't have a ton of friends and I think I just craved connection.

And, you know, I just, I, I found like when you're honest and you're able to share your struggles, no matter how painful they are, there's always freedom from that because someone else goes, Oh, thank God I'm not the only one.

Or they have more of an understanding for someone they love that they're struggling to see.

And I think so often, so many of the world's issues would be solved with a conversation or would be solved with a little bit of vulnerability and honesty.

And it's ironic because it's like often the scariest thing, but it's the most rewarding thing you could possibly do.

And I can't even last night did literally my, my mentor, I, I've been avoiding him because there was some stuff that I was ashamed about that I'd sort of, I'd, I'd slipped in different ways and I didn't want to talk to him because I know we had to talk about that.

And it was like I was making up all these scenarios in my head of like, he's going to be mad at me and he's going to freak out and there's blah, blah, blah, blah.

So for literally weeks, like we had been kind of, I'd been dodging him a little bit.

And last night it caught up to me and we called and literally I like told him everything and he was like, I love you.

I was like, damn, like he was like, OK, like, OK, so this is what happened.

So what do you think LED that LED you to do that?

Like what was the real underlying issue there?

And instead of coming at me at from this judge mental angry place, he came at me with compassion.

I know that's not the case for everybody's conversations and and whatnot, but it was just interesting how I made-up the scenario.

I literally said to him, like, thank you for not being like the the person I met up in my head, you know, like.

What did you make up, you might say?

I just, I sort of imagine that he would be very angry.

I imagine that he would be very disappointed that he would be like shocked and, and all this stuff and he was beyond understanding, you know.

And so anyway, I say that to say, like, you know, a lot of times we think that that the vulnerabilities like the most terrifying thing.

But I found like when I talk about stuff that's really traumatic in my life, like if I'm in an interview and I talked about it for years, I'll have people come up to me and say, Yo, when you said that in that interview, I had never heard anyone talk about that.

And that is what helped me to find freedom in this area.

And so thank you for doing that, even though there was backlash, even though there was people that that didn't like that I was talking about that stuff.

People in my family, there were certain situations where just people don't like that stuff because it's uncomfortable.

But the reality is the fruit I found it far outweighs sort of the discomfort of being vulnerable and being honest.

So that's I think Long story short, long story long, that's I think why if I.

Did that you've you've sensed the ripple.

You've experienced the ripple of you sharing your story and what it's doing for other people.

100%, yeah.

And I'm interested in the the origin of your story where you talked about emotional dissonance, where inside the home there were certain emotional needs that got met and some of them maybe we're a little limited.

That's I can relate to that story.

I had a similar experience and I the way I adapted or maladapt it was, I started looking externally for my worth and value and becoming what I needed to be to get some of that mad.

And it took me years of personal work and excavating to understand where those limitations came from.

And I also had the challenge years ago when I first started talking about this stuff publicly, because I speak a lot, is that it's it's impossible to tell your story without getting into the nuance of some of your family stuff.

And how do you honor your family and the great things they did, but also talk about them publicly?

Not in a way that we want to expose them, but you know, we're left to see what people do by chopping it up and making up a story about what they want to make up.

And it took me years to find a rhythm where I wasn't terrified of what my mom thought about that last interview.

And I'm not done near the interviews you've done.

Yeah.

No, but it's usually genetic or hereditary.

So it's like often in, in, in my case, we didn't do a lot of intimacy, a lot of hugging or touching or a lot of overt, I love use.

And I was mid 20s before I found out my, my dad grew up in a great system, great family, but they never told him they loved him.

And so he he didn't know how to do that.

It was literally a little bit generational, a little bit cultural.

And I'm just curious if if you've ever had any of those conversations to understand, Yeah, that part of your story, 100?

Percent.

So I literally have a song called Lifeline and in the bridge one of the lyrics is we hardly say I love you because your parents parents never did.

So that's literally one of my lyrics.

And it was, you know, it took crying.

I'm already crying.

When I had heart failure, there was all this distance between me and my family, you know, and I wasn't really opening up to them about anything.

I was very much like neglecting my relationships with my family.

And it took that wake up call of like, you have 12 hours to live to realize, like, what am I doing?

You know, why am I not talking to them?

And, and so that really brought us closer.

And it's still been a long journey of getting close with my family from then.

But I remember just when my mom was in the hospital and she can only visit for an hour because of COVID times, we had more honest conversations in that hospital room than we had ever had.

And I say this in my shows, but I urge people not to wait until their life is on the line to open up that door.

And like, my parents just weren't necessarily the most vulnerable with me all the time.

And that's fine.

And it took me kind of initiating that vulnerability, I think.

I mean, I don't want to discredit them.

I'm just saying like, you know, a lot of times I'll like, there was a time when I called my dad and I was like, dad, like, I feel like I can't talk to you.

Like I feel like I can't tell you anything.

I feel like I'm, I'm avoiding you.

And I like, I don't want that to be the case.

And that just saying that opened up a whole different world of, of, of vulnerability for us to talk and stuff.

And so I definitely think that there's a level of like, sort of like waking up out of the programming that you were kind of put in, You know, you don't even realize the stuff you run on, right?

Like the, the sort of, if shame is a thing in your household, it's going to be baked into your subconscious in, in a very large way and you won't even realize you're operating out of shame.

And and then again, it takes sort of that self examination to really go like, OK, why am I behaving this way?

Like why am I hiding from my parents?

It's because I feel shame because when I'd got in trouble when I was a kid, then, you know, they did their best to to discipline or to sort of take care of me.

And that led to shame, right?

And that's not necessarily their fault.

But so then now when I do something stupid, I don't want to bring it to my parents because then I don't want to reinflict that wound.

And so again, it's, I'm saying a lot of things all over the place, but you know that that is definitely a, a journey I've been on is unpacking the, the sort of automatic, automatic systems I operate out of, if that makes sense.

And one of them, again, was like not being vulnerable with my parents.

And so that's been something that I've been trying to shift.

And I've actually seen, I think a ripple effect of that in my family.

There was even a time when one of my sisters and I have 5 sisters, one of them was like yo this family's falling apart and we need to have a family meeting and we all got together.

Yes.

No, we, we had never done that, you know, And again, we were all homeschooled.

We were very close growing up by proximity, but not necessarily emotionally.

I mean, again, that's not necessarily entirely fair, but I just as we sort of grew up, there was a lot of drifting, a lot of unresolved conflict, a lot of just a wedge between US.

And so my sister was like, we're getting together and we're talking.

So we got together and my sister just opened the floor by being vulnerable.

How about how she felt?

And she was bawling.

And I'm telling you, every single person in my family was sobbing by the end of that.

And everyone had confessed the secret.

They're all like, well, when I grew up, I was struggling with pornography and I was like, you or I had no idea, like, you know what I'm saying?

Like my sisters were telling things that that my parents were sharing things about their childhood we had never known.

And, and it was a beautiful time because again, it was a perfect example of how my sister started with vulnerability and it opened the, the sort of conversation and then everyone felt they had permission to then share.

And, and so I'm going in circles here.

I don't really know where I'm going, but it was a really, really cool thing to see.

And again, now my family's much closer, you know, and I feel like I can definitely pick up the phone and talk to my dad about what I'm struggling with or what I'm going through.

And it's been a beautiful journey, but it's taken time to get there, so yeah.

Well, one of the things, you know, I, I work in the psychology space, I work in a few spaces, but primarily in the in therapy psychology space and run some retreat centers and get to support and work with some incredible, brilliant therapists.

And what people don't realize sometimes is that the letters behind your name, the credentials and the training and the experience and ideally even the natural wiring to be an empath if you're signing up for this career at the at the end of the day, there's a human behind all that.

And we're going to make mistakes and step on ourselves or other people's stories occasionally and have transference and counter trans come up in sessions.

It's a very human experience, but have said this for years to our team.

I was like the the thing that I want to work at the most when people come into our space is that we never add shame to anybody's story because there's plenty of it.

And.

There's enough.

There's enough, yeah.

And and I heard you saying that when you and it's often so interesting how ideally, I think we all hope, and I did feel a little bit of responsibility to leave our generation a little bit better than the last.

And if generations could grow and, and out out run out kick patterns with, with every step, ideally, I think that's, that's the legacy we hope to not leave behind, but that we hope to live into.

And it sounds like, and it's all it's often the, the one that's considered the black sheep or the one that has had a lot of the problems that ends up being a guide to the to the system's story.

It's really fascinating, you know, coming alongside the system and you live out loud and we go do the crazy things that we did because I got out and struggled with substances and all the different things that really relate to parts of your story, not knowing all of it, just what I've read.

And, and I and I had a similar experience where I brought my family into a little bit more honest dialogue and open conversations.

And I'm curious for you because I think that's something you should feel really proud of.

I'm really proud of you for being part of it.

And I don't know if you were the full catalyst or how it happened, but it sounds like it happened.

Those family meetings, if we could just have more of them, especially for families and systems like ours that are notorious for not talking about what's under the surface or saying the unsaid.

But I did that for a few years and I realized that part of my dependency on external approval or something we call in our world insider speaks codependency.

I had a lot of that going on where I just wanted everybody else to be OK around me.

And if they were OK, I was OK.

I realized that my motive was to fix my family and not necessarily be seen in it.

And so I went like four or five years of having those great dialogues and I was so I had adrenaline from it.

And then suddenly I woke up one day, I was like, I feel, I remember it was a Christmas and we were all sitting around.

Everybody was on their technology and, and it was one of the two times we got together all year and I was like, oh, it's so much better than it used to be.

And I've never felt more lonely.

Wow, it was really interesting for me and I and I, and I don't want to camp out too much on my sword, but I'll tell you what happened from there and where I went.

But I'm just curious for you, what did you you described it, but what did you feel in that family meeting?

What were the emotions or what?

What did it provoke for you when that was happening, when you were seeing something you'd never experienced?

Yeah, I would say relief is is a word.

And, and again, I have to credit my sister because she's the one who was like, this is happening, you know, But, you know, I think shame thrives in the dark, right?

And so many of our wounds fester in the dark, you know, and, and it's, it's really like bringing it to light is like like, you know, it's like there's for so long.

You're like hiding, hiding, hiding, hiding, hiding.

You're suffering in that the thing.

Same thing when I talked to my mentor last night, it was like, at least we could talk about it.

Like at least it's out in the open now.

It's no longer a secret, you know, And so I think relief is, is a huge 1, you know, where you don't have to keep putting up this performance, so you don't have to keep sort of putting up these walls and you can just relax and, and be able to, to be honest.

And that doesn't mean it's not going to be uncomfortable, but Oh my gosh.

I mean, the, the, the, the relief after everyone had just cried and, and we talked about things and we just grew so much closer.

I would say that's probably one of the most pivotal moments in my family's history.

I if not the most pivotal because it forever changed like how we approach conflict, how we approached disagreements, how we approached whatever.

And, and we've been closer than ever since.

So yeah, I would say relief is is one of the words that odious.

But yeah.

It feels to me and tell me if this fits or not and change it if it doesn't.

But it feels like you felt seen in your system in that moment.

Definitely.

And also just so much more compassion.

You know, I think when you really hear someone else's side of things, whatever case that is, you know, and I think this is a big issue that I actually have because, you know, it's interesting.

You said like your desire was to be seen and I think.

Or was that right?

Am I saying that right that.

Yeah, I think, you know, I look at, you know, and this is no, I'm going to say their name, but it's not really a dig on them.

It's just like there's a YouTube channels like Jubilee, right?

And they have these sort of set up sorts like 1 conservative versus 25 Democrats or, or what whatever it is, you know, and those infuriate me.

And the reason they infuriate me is because literally nobody is seeking it seems like nobody is seeking further understanding.

It's just I'm going to win.

I'm going to prove my point.

I'm going to make this person look like an idiot.

I'm going to make fun of them and make everyone else laugh at it.

We're going to take the clip.

We're going to blow it up and say look at this idiot on the other side.

And I'm like that.

That is really not like they're having conversation, but it's not really productive because they're not coming at it from a place of seeking understanding, seeking love.

And I think that is fundamental.

So it's like sometimes people try to fix their family, but they don't realize that they're just steamrolling them.

They're not actually loving them, right?

It's not coming from a place of, of being able to empathize and understand where they came from.

And I'm telling you, bro, I say this all the time, sorry to get on like a tangent, but it's like if you were to take two people and put them in the same exact home and you make one of them watch CNN for three months, You make one of them watch Fox News for a month or for three months.

You, you take away their social media or you, you change their algorithms for the same things and they come back together.

They're going to have different perspectives of the world because they've been fed two different lenses.

And that's not to say that people shouldn't be responsible for for educating themselves.

I do believe people need to expand.

Like there's no excuse to be unaware for sure, but we have to come from a place of like, okay, again, maybe my mom, mom didn't say I love you to her growing up.

Maybe that's why she has a hard time being vulnerable instead of like, oh, my mom never said she loves me, which isn't the case, by the way, but I'm just using an example.

Like, you know, I'm saying, again, sorry, I'm kind of going on tangent here, but I think that is an important nuance to these conversations that you have with your family is being able to come genuinely seeking understanding.

Like, OK, so now you believe this thing that I think is completely wrong.

I disagree with how did you get there?

And how can we look at the facts together?

And maybe there's something I'm not seeing that I need to learn from, you know?

And I think that is the only way we're going to be able to, you know, have a healthier society, have a healthier discussion.

But right now it's, it's just conflict, conflict, conflict, conflict.

And people are talking, but they're really yelling and nobody's listening, you know?

Polarization really sells and it's I don't think there's such, there's neutral news.

I don't think there is such a thing.

I think there's people that are trying it.

I've seen like some, I try to follow a few counts.

It's like all sides now where they're trying to represent left, right, and center, but you're still, it's still coming through the lens of a little bit of an implicit bias.

And I do agree with you.

I think in productive conversations, there's no winner.

I think that both parties feel heard.

And I do think that that's one of my challenges with debates.

I actually like debates because I love the art form of communication.

I love great orators.

I like to see people to test their knowledge and to be confronted on certain things.

What I don't love is that nobody can be wrong in a debate.

And I've often thought because because now that vulnerability is trendy and cool and hip and, you know, people are drawn to it.

I've seen so many great influential people start to really lean into it.

But the one place that's absent is is politics.

For the most part, you don't ever hear a presidential debate with.

So you know what?

They ask you something about foreign policy.

And somebody has the courage to say that's one area that I'm not an expert on, but I, so I, I could answer this with some talking points that they prepped me before, before the interview.

But if I'm really honest, I'm not as well read as the people I'm going to bring alongside me to help run that part.

I would trust that like nobody's business.

But I just, you just don't see it, especially in a very divided and polarized world.

And that's, I'm hoping that's why I love talking to creatives and why I've worked in and around your space, the music side of your space for most of my career is because I, I don't know that some of the other influential seats that usually move culture, business, education, politics, faith, are going to be the one to naturally bring us back together and get us all at the table.

I actually think it's the arts.

I think creatives and storytellers.

Speaking my language bro.

If you've been listening to this podcast, then you probably already have picked up that doing inner work to try to optimize your lives in relationship is not something that you can just think your way into.

It's something that takes a minute to pause and to take a look under the hood with people that you really trust and care about.

And I am so fortunate.

You've probably heard us mention on site a time or two and it that's my baby.

I get to work with the best team in the world that offers these immersive experiences, therapeutic coaching, counseling opportunities for people to come in for a few days and take a look at what matters most and how do we reprioritize our relationships and, and get our feet on the ground emotionally and spiritually.

If you'd like to check out any of our services, we have a camp beautiful campus just outside Nashville and Tennessee and another one in Southern California just outside San Diego.

We also offer some things online.

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But if, if we can support you in any way, I would encourage you to check out experience on-site.com and, and you can, you can call us at 1-800-341-7432.

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As a matter of fact, we train our folks to be able to help triage and, and refer people to the right resource wherever you may be.

We're just in this to try to help people collect dots, connect dots, optimize their lives in relationship, and truly live into who you can become.

Yeah, because The thing is, you know, Steve Jobs says the most powerful person in the world is the storyteller.

Steve Jobs, like he didn't, he made computers, right?

And he said the most powerful person in the world is the storyteller.

And I think the reason is because if I give you information, you can register that.

But if you're moved at the heart, that's when real change happens.

You know, whether it's music or or films or whatever it is, it's, it's that therapeutic sort of emotional resonance that that does shift things, you know?

And so that's why I believe that as well.

And it's interesting, you look at a lot of movements in history, like the ending of slavery.

A lot of that started as a cultural conversation in art.

And there was a lot of art that really started to wake people up.

And then the legislation followed, you know, and it's, there's other examples of that, I think in history.

But I agree that the artists are on the front lines in terms of really of moving the needle, if that makes sense.

And I think artists, especially songwriters, which I'm really excited you're spending time.

We didn't got into that yet, but I'm curious about what's brought you to Nashville and what you're doing here, how much time you're going to end up spending here.

But I'm excited about it 'cause I do think that the reason I fell in love with the town I've been in for 2530 years is it's got a creative energy.

And a lot of the great songwriters in the world live here.

And we celebrate the songwriter more than other music towns because you can go to different venues and you can see songwriters playing in the round.

Was born here and it's different things, but often I see songwriters and a lot of my best friends in my community, songwriters and our we have a nonprofit that supports counseling, you know, for songwriters that don't have the means to afford it.

And so I've worked with and around this community for 10-15 years and I see this burden of I have an ability to download the pain of the world, somehow figure out how to separate it from my own internal narrative and then translate it back in an effective way that ideally wakes somebody up, give somebody a different perspective, challenges perception or maybe just encourages and brings hope to a story.

And often what we don't think of is, well, what about the vessel that delivered all that?

Cause I've even had one of my best friends is a, is a great songwriter and he knows I'm, I've been in my space and done my own work for years and also facilitate work.

And he'll, he's called me before and he's like, dude, I need to borrow some of your pain.

You come over and sit with me.

That's what you're sorry.

I'm tired of talking about mine.

Right, right, right.

And, and I'm happy to do it, but I think about that in our space, we deal with something called vicarious or secondary stress or trauma.

And vicarious or secondary trauma is when you consume other people's pain stories all day, every day.

It's impossible that some of it doesn't get sticky and that's that's why we have to be super proactive as facilitators in the change space to find creative and ways to offload the stress we consume.

But I think songwriters consume a lot of stress too.

If you're paying attention to the world and usually most of your already built pretty sensitive and emotional beings.

And so that's why I think depression and anxiety run pretty high in your community.

But I'm I'm curious your your take on that.

Yeah, I mean, it's so funny.

I feel like there's days where I feel good in the studio and it makes something really good.

But often times the days where I just want to quit, I do not want to be there and I want to go home.

And I feel horrible that if I just push past it a little bit, then I make a song that's like unlike anything I've made.

You know what?

Do you think that is I really make here because I think that's how Mirror was born.

How Mirror.

Yeah.

Yeah, Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, he he did his research.

Look at that.

That's definitely how that was made.

Exactly.

That's what I was thinking of when I said that.

Another song being like Lifeline, you know, that was about the hospital experience and I didn't really want to.

It was just uncomfortable.

And I something that I also wrote is not in a song, but it's artists pave the road for others to stroll or artists pave the road for the audience to stroll down.

And the idea is like that the paving is the hard work, right?

You have to really feel the tough emotions and like sit in the raw rough and in that when you make that into art, then when people hear it, it's cathartic for them.

It's a release.

It's, it's a beautiful thing.

You kind of hold their hand right as they go through that emotion.

But you have to be the one to like pave the road.

And that's not to say like, oh, we have to suffer for art.

I don't, I think there's a really unhealthy way.

And I've, I've known people who have literally said sometimes I just cause chaos in my life so I can suffer and make good art.

I'm like, that is not healthy at all.

But there's a level of sort of looking at the darkest parts yourself.

Again, it's I just think artists have to do it first, right?

They do it first, so then other people can follow and do it with them.

So I definitely, yeah, I think that's the the whole battle is spiritual.

I mean, I don't, I don't really think much about songwriting at all.

It's it's, it's a spiritual battle.

It's like I'm going in there and I'm going to have to just like in the same way that you kind of do when you're going to therapy.

If you're going to sit there and just sit in discomfort for an hour and like let it pass through, you kind of have to look at songwriting like that.

Not to say every song is super painful and super hard to write.

I'm just saying in general, the deep stuff, you know, you have to sit in that in order to get through it.

But it's interesting going back on what you said about the, the sort of vicarious trauma.

Was that it?

I just did a, a film.

I was in a very small role in this film, but my character had to have a mental breakdown like a full snap, like didn't sleep for three days is based off a true guy, a true story.

And so it was like, you know, 3 days of no sleep, completely out of your mind, bonkers.

Something snapped in your brain.

And I was listening to them describe the guy who actually lived.

And as they were talking, I was kind of letting myself get into that headspace and I straight up, bro, my whole body started like getting like almost convulsing, like I, I was like freaking out, but I was letting myself work out because I'm an actor, right?

I'm like, I got to get there.

Like I got to let myself go there.

And I had this back pain that I've now had for months.

It's gone, come and gone.

But my, because my body was able to believe that I was in that environment, that I was in that stress state, I literally got like back pain from it.

That was like something tweaked in my back.

And so the reason I say that is because I do also believe that your body believes everything you think and that that kind of goes with the, you know, thing that you're talking about.

Like as I let myself ponder this person's trauma, I actually my body was treating as if it was my own.

And that was a really interesting thing for me.

I mean, probably not the healthiest thing, but it was it was just a case study for me because I'm like, wow, all I had to do was think about it and my body was like, we're there and it took me there.

And so that's why it's really, you know, important to pay attention to where you let your mind go, you know, because I think you can really take your body places that you're not even like you can come up.

Sorry, that did not that was not worded well.

If your brain believes a scenario, your body will as well.

And I think so often, like that's been a big struggle for me, right?

If I'm in the studio and I'm like freaking out about whatever, it's like my body shutting down now.

I'm not really able to like be vulnerable and whatnot.

And so it's just an interesting journey sort of understanding like the body, mind, soul connection and how again, we can have empathetic trauma and we can sort of even look, if I'm in the studio and someone's anxious and they're like leg is shaking and stuff, it can kind of, I have to like really focus and stay out of that because sometimes it, it affects me.

You know, I think we all are connected.

And when you're in close proximity to people, you know, I can't really write if I'm in a coffee shop.

It's just too, the energy is too hectic, you know, and so there's definitely something energetic about all that stuff.

Again, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm going on so many ADHD tangents.

But yeah, it's, I think about the stuff all the time, you know, I'm fascinated with it.

Well, it what you're describing is something called mirror neurons.

Are you familiar with them?

I think so, but.

You're so well read on on a lot of the stuff that I've spent time on.

So I don't, I don't, but I think it might be itching for those that are listening to hear about it.

But it's and a simple way to to say it.

I don't want to shortchange the neuroscience behind it, but a simple way to say it is we can kind of catch emotion like a cold in proximity.

So they got they did the study.

For better or worse, right?

For better or worse, they did a study years ago with with monkeys or apes where they would get them face to face and make eye contact with no distractions.

And they started noticing it by the physical movement.

So they would do like that and suddenly the other one would do like that and you had this uncontrolled response.

And in African culture, they know that a funeral or a service to honor somebody's grief is, is ceremonial and meant to be an invitation for grief.

And so they'll often plant a whaler at a service because they know if someone is starts to emote, it ends up being a permission slip for others to be able to emote.

And they want it to be productive.

In the same way in native culture, a lot of times the way cinema shows the, the, the war dance, it's, it's before they go into battle and you're dancing and getting fired up.

But actually most of the time it was after to be able to offload what they just seen and what they consume physically get it out of there body.

Yeah, that's wild.

Yeah, it's it's it's fascinating.

But in in I'm I'm really interested in that.

What is it?

And I'm curious your take, because it happens in counseling all the time too, or coach coaching session is to where often you don't have a breakthrough moment until you're 3 minutes before the session is.

That's why I don't love traditional counseling because it's like, here's the 50 minute session.

You're supposed to come slingshot out of this crazy world.

The vibration, you come into this little connection pocket and then all of a sudden you get slingshoted back out.

That's one of the reasons we kind of pioneered years ago with a multi day intensive so people can have more time to breathe, because often the breakthroughs don't happen in an hour, But when they do, it's interesting.

It's usually like your your songwriting session.

It's like you're about ready to quit and then suddenly boom.

And I just, I just wonder what your thoughts?

I've got a few thoughts, but I wonder what your thoughts song, why that might be.

Why is it that when you stepped out of that session about ready to quit the beauty of Mirror and I want to get into some of your record.

We'll get into that in a minute, but the beauty of that song, you came back in and boom, that happened.

What do you think that magic comes from in that lizard beater type moment?

Sure, sure.

I mean, I think, yeah, there's a couple different I thoughts I have on it.

I think, you know, we, we definitely as people, I think we have the ability to push down emotions, right?

We have the ability to close them off.

You see it happen all the time where people become numb because they're just Nope, pushing it away, pushing away, whether that's with smoking, drinking, a social media, distractions, cut work, whatever it is, you know, we can push those things down, right?

And so I think that if you stop pushing them down for a second, you sit still.

That's why a lot of people don't meditate because stuff comes up and they don't want to deal with it.

But ultimately, I think if you can loosen your grip on your heart and not keep pushing it down, eventually this stuff starts to come up.

But as it starts coming up, you can get uncomfortable because there's, there's a reason why you've been pushing it down for so long because it's painful, right?

But I think when you sort of loosen your grip and it starts to come up, you have an option, right?

You can either go, Nope, not today, I'm going home, I quit, I'm not going to the studio.

Or you can just like kind of relax, you know, and eventually that it, it'll come up, right?

And so Part 2 of my thought on that is every song that I've written that's been profound.

I, I also say often my heart writes the songs.

I just write them down, which might be a cheesy line, but it's true.

And I think anyone who's made anything that they find valuable, they have an understanding that they don't really know how it happened.

You know, if I'm trying to think of a clever lyric, it's probably going to be stupid, you know, But if I let my heart flow and I just kind of it's hard to explain, but it's just like you let it, you let your heart tell you what it feels.

You know, there's sometimes I don't even realize I felt something.

I wrote a song about a situation that happened six years ago.

I like a couple months ago and I didn't even know that I felt that way about that thing, but it just it was time for it to come up and it came out and I was like, whoa, I didn't even know that I felt that.

Or I'll write lyrics that like, I don't realize the depth of them until I'm on tour and I'm seeing them and I'm like, whoa, that's actually profound.

I don't even know how I, I didn't realize what I was saying when I said it, but there was something that happened there in the heart.

So it's a multi layered answer to your question.

But I think again, if you stop pushing the emotions down, eventually they're going to come up, which is why I like, I'm an advocate for fasting when it's done in a healthy way.

You know, obviously there's people with certain eating disorders or, or sensitivities that I think that it's a case by case study.

So I'm not prescribing fasting, but I have seen when I fast, all the stuff that I'm avoiding comes up.

And a lot of times people don't fast is like, oh, you just feel horrible.

You get hangry.

I'm like, yeah, it's because that you're no longer pushing that stuff down.

And it's, it's coming up, you know, And if you just give it the space to come up and you move past it, by the end of the fast, you feel phenomenal because you've worked through a lot of your your stuff.

But I think we live in a society that is all about distraction, suppression, fear, and people are just like in a state of fight or flight.

And when you're in that state, the idea of feeling any pain is like horrifying.

You know, it's, it seems like how could you add any more weight to what I'm feeling right now?

And so a lot of times too, when I go to the studio, my battle is actually primarily getting out of a state of fight or flight.

Perfect example, this morning I woke up, fall of anxiety, absolute wreck.

And I was like, OK, dude, what's going on?

And now that I, I know sort of what I am like and, and, and sort of can predict it sometimes I've, I've learned a lot of tools and tricks for how to get myself out of fight or flight, stimulating the vagus nerve.

I don't know how familiar I'm sure you are, you know, So I'm very much, I have like a list of 20 things that I can do that like by the end of it, I'm good, you know, but again, it's, it's learning how to get out of place of fight or flight.

And then your emotions can process because if you're trying to survive, why are you going to deal with the trauma from when you were 10 years old?

Like there's no time for that.

You have to stay alive.

But once you're out of that state, then this stuff comes up.

So to answer your question, in the studio, a lot of times the battle is getting out of state of fight or flight for long enough that those emotions came up to heal.

And as they come up, then you're allowed to get them out through the art.

And that's then what creates the art that has that resonance that's able to affect people, you know, Otherwise it's just noise.

Well said.

There's a lot in there that I'd love to to comment on and circle back without.

You know, I do think that I don't think I think true creatives is difficult to schedule creative endeavors and and yet songwriting sessions are, are usually scheduled.

But it's it's interesting how the LA and the pop scene creates usually differently than Nashville creates and all the way down to 10 AM versus 3:00 AM right, right.

I'd rather in law where it is in your space produces and writes and first time I write in Nashville to write.

He was like what you know, he's in the used to be in the studio all night long.

It's different.

100%.

But I do feel like that there.

We feel a little pressure in a counseling officer, let's just say in a relationship, we're having a conversation, we feel a little pressure to have a certain outcome.

And if we're if we're focused on the outcome, then we start to manipulate and control the process.

And when we control the process, it negates the natural flow of what's supposed to happen.

And I think the same thing happens kind of in creativity 100%.

And I and I don't like pressure on the front end.

Like, hey, you got an hour to come up with a hook or a song or whatever, or you got an hour to do a breakthrough, or we got an hour to fix our mess as a couple, whatever it is.

Sure, but sometimes creatives and I feel like I'm a creative too, so I'm talking about myself and sometimes we can we can camp out and get a little obsessed and perfectionistic about trying to create it, which is this whole nother layer of pressure.

And often it's the back end wall.

It's like I was do or die.

It's like I got 5 minutes on this session.

I'm either going to go back in or quit that.

Suddenly you release the pressure because you're like, what's the worst thing that can happen?

We're probably not going to get anything anyway.

And all the sudden it's like boom, the lights turn off.

Magic kind of happens.

And it's something, you know, part of this whole this whole show is to take people who have been really successful in different walks of life.

And we would cherry pick certain parts of that, that somebody that's not trying to be.

I mean, you have a lot to say If you were, if we were mentoring songwriters, if this whole podcast is about songwriters or becoming an artist or or being on Broadway or acting, character acting, whatever, you'd crush all that.

But what I really want is a lot of people listening to Someone Like You and be like, actually, he's been able to imply a lot of these to hack life and to live a more meaningful, fulfilling life.

And I want people to be able to hear different parts of that.

So I would say those of you that are listening, if you feel pressure in whatever you're feeling underneath right now, sometimes you have to just release your grip.

I love the way you said that.

Yeah, surrender is definitely a huge part of it for sure.

Yeah.

And you said a couple things.

You you introduced the vagus nerve and then you said I've got a list of 20 things to help get my nervous system regulator.

I think you use the word get out of fight or flight.

I think, I hope we have a whole bunch of people in here that never heard any of that.

And so if you do have like your top two or three, I'd, I'd love to hear about one that you might want to share because I think that might be interesting.

I bet a lot of people can relate to waking up in fight or flight.

Yeah, 100% that.

I honestly think I just wrote this in my notes out the other day.

I think the biggest problem of our time actually is, is a chronic fight or flight.

And I think that's, you know, all the leading causes of death can be traced back to stress, right?

That's it's one of the common denominators and, and all them.

So it's, it's very, it's a big deal.

And especially with social media, we live in a constant.

It's just insane.

If you think about it, where we are.

And then, you know, if you mix in like my therapist diagnosed me with PTSD, she said she's been in the industry for 30 years and she's never seen anyone score higher on every category of PTSD.

So I'm well versed in being in that flight fight or flight, you know, complex PTSD, which is, as you know, different.

It's, it's a sort of chronic continuous state of, of PTSD.

So I'm, you know, I, I, I, I think about this stuff a lot.

Like truly, I really care because I'm like there, there is a more holistic approach and I think.

I could give you an exercise and I'll give you a couple, but the other thing I want to bring back to is your body believes everything you think you know, and I think that you can tackle sort of the physical.

I can give you all these tools and stuff, but ultimately the root of the issue is thoughts that you're believing that are leading your body to be in a fight or flight.

Of course there's a time and a place to be in fight or flight, right?

If there's a situation where you, you need to get out of somewhere, there's whatever, obviously, but 98% of the time, I would say, especially in, in a lot of society today, it's not necessary.

And so again, it's like there's tools and then they're also the root issue.

And I think understanding like, Hey, what are the lies that I'm believing that are getting me to this place?

You know, whatever it is.

Again, I can give a million examples of different lies that I've believed, but ultimately it's like 2 people can walk through the same journey and have different beliefs and one of them will be all messed up in all kinds of ways, fight or flight.

Another person will feel great and free and easy, and it's all because they're believing everything.

So I would say first and foremost, really start to write down what are the lies that you're believing, the way you find out what they are.

I have this little trick that I do.

I don't have a name for it, but basically the four categories in your notes app would be thought feeling, impulse, truth.

So what I'll do is if I'm freaking out about something, I will just write down this doesn't make sense.

What if this happens?

Oh my gosh, I hope this doesn't blah, blah, blah.

I can't believe I said that.

Why am I such an idiot?

They're going to hate me, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then I go to feelings and I write down shame, fear, sadness, regret, whatever, you know, impulse, smoke a cigarette, go on TikTok, whatever, you know, you name it, have it coke, whatever.

And then you write down the truth.

And So what that does is you are able to acknowledge the thoughts and then see it on paper for what it is, acknowledge your feelings.

So then you process the feelings, right?

You're naming them and they're, they're being released.

And then you're keeping track of what that's leading you to do and stopping yourself in the tracks.

And then you affirm the truth, which is like, I, you know, I love them no matter what or, or there's still time to make this right or whatever that is.

You know, you don't have to gaslight yourself.

You don't have to like write down things and just hope that they're true.

You have to actually acknowledge that.

What do I know to be true about this thing?

And so that once you do that enough times, you start to recognize a pattern, OK?

Once I start believing that, I start thinking this thought that leads to shame, that leads to smoking.

OK, so now that you see that, then when it comes up again, you're like, oh, there's that thought again.

I've done the work.

And then you're able to automatically adjust it back to the truth that you reaffirmed.

So that to me is one of the most important tools I've ever learned in my life.

And it has radically changed and stopped a lot of my anxiety and a lot of my fear.

Because the analogy that I give is like, have you ever been to Universal Studios in Lai Get so geeked out about talking about this stuff?

It just excites me because I just want to see people free.

But I was in a, the analogy I give is like if you had a little kid that you brought to Universal Studios and you were near the Jurassic World ride and they saw the dinosaur, they started freaking out.

They're like, mom, mom, Oh my gosh, mom, there's a dinosaur.

But you've been annoyed by your kid all day.

You're like just OK, it's fine, you're fine, whatever.

You just keep ignoring the kid.

The kids going to keep freaking out because he sees a dinosaur and he's like, there's a freaking dinosaur, you know, and mom's neglecting me, so I'm, I'm double screwed.

But you go down to the kid and you say, sorry, what?

What exactly are you worried about?

And the kids like, there's a big dinosaur and he's going to eat me.

And you go, oh, OK, I see why you got to that conclusion because that is a dinosaur.

But that's actually not a real dinosaur.

And you're going to be OK.

Now the kid feels heard, you know, you validate that there was fear there, but then you would readjust to the truth.

And then the kid can go and enjoy Universal Studios.

But if you keep ignoring the kid, the kid never feels heard.

He doesn't get corrected.

You know, that is how I kind of look at my anxiety.

I treat it like that in a way where I'm like, OK, what?

What are we worried about again?

OK, tell me.

OK, it's that thing.

OK, I see why you're worried about what people are going to say about you because yes, that did hurt in the past and you know, people can say things, but you know, your identity, right?

It's not going to kill you.

You know, it tried to kill me at some point, but it, you know, it's not going to.

And so anyways, you know what I'm saying that that's how I treat sort of the anxiety.

So there's all that.

And then on the physical side.

Before, before you get there, I want to just.

I want to please.

Sorry, I'm just.

No, no, but I but I just want to pause because I think that's a beautiful represent.

It's why I love sitting with great creatives.

It's because you'll often I, I know all this stuff.

You know, I've been spent 20 something years in this field, but often we need creatives to come along and say, have you thought about doing it like this?

Have you thought about, you know, here's a here's a little exercise to say I've gotten some of my best tools from from guys like you that don't work in my space but are using tools to survive and to thrive in their own lives.

And I think I could, I could walk people through the the neuropsychology and the biology of what's happening when you do that.

But that's where we usually lose people because it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we got all that.

But honor and honor your truth regardless what it is.

No judgment.

Tell it first, and then let's identify what the underlying feeling might be.

Because we don't change what we don't first understand, and we don't understand what we don't first identify.

And so you've actually, you've shared the truth, you've honored it, you didn't judge it, shared the feeling, and then suddenly you kind of fact checked it with a little bit of reality.

And it's such a great way to think.

You got to name this thing.

Totally.

Yeah, I know, I know.

I I say T fit and my phone gets it's thought feeling impulse truth but I got to find a better name.

OK, cool, I said.

T Fit.

It's just the the acronym that I'm like, I don't, I don't know anything better, but yes.

No, I'm, I'm, I'm glad you shared it because I, I think there's a lot of people and the reason I had a big smile when you said Universal Studios and the kids seeing the, the dinosaurs.

I was literally just at Universal Studios in Florida two weeks ago.

It's one of my great buddies.

It's an artist I do a lot of work with.

And he, he was down there and we had a writing camp going on and we decided to take our families over to do Disney one day and then do Universal one.

Of course you have to do the thing.

And my we got to Harry Potter Land and it was the second day it was at Universal and it was the first ride we decided to do.

And I was with the pretty public groups.

We were having to move fast and just try to, you know, all that stuff that just made the logistics a little complicated.

And so the last thing I needed was my son to balk on this ride because everybody was on it but us.

And he balked on the ride and it freaked him out.

He started to see you were going to, it was you were going to be hanging like a bicycle, right, Right.

And you?

Also have like demons or whatever, Like, yeah, what are they called?

I I never watched Harry Potter cut this out.

Plenty, plenty.

Well, I I believe it or not, Harry Potter Land and The Rise are unbelievable.

And I'm not even a big Harry Potter fan.

No, I respect the storytelling.

In LA, it's amazing.

It's wild, it's unbelievable.

But you're right, for an 8 year old, of course you wouldn't write to me.

Of course there's demons.

Why wouldn't he freak out that moment?

But at first I didn't do what you did.

I went into survival mode because suddenly I go back into I'm a dad and we've got to get this right and other people are watching And so the tools go out the window for a minute and suddenly I'm just reacting instead of responding.

And my reacting was first I is I got to, I got to give him a good nudge and try to push him towards this ride because he's just in fear.

And I do get it out of him and throw him on the ride and, and, and I and I kind of made an attempt at that.

I'm embarrassed to say if somebody that does what I do to be.

Honest.

No.

Of course.

And that, of course, you know what that did.

Human School.

Thank you.

Thank you for permission.

And you know exactly the outcome.

I'm sure the people listening to too.

It made it worse.

It just, he just, he got more activated, started screaming louder and it became more of a protest if I'm not doing this right.

And I was like, well, that didn't work.

So then I got frustrated because my I was again trying to control the narrative and control the outcome and I didn't get the outcome I desired.

And I was like, well, I guess we're just going to skip all the rides today.

And then suddenly my intentions were so pure because I'm thinking I want this kid to have the experience of a lifetime.

And I know if he'll ride a few of these rides will be unforgettable.

But I let that get in the way of him just asking to be heard.

And, and so finally I, I got it.

I was, I was, I'm a delayed learner.

But when we walked back out of the ride, it's kind of like the walk of shame, not the walk of shame I did back in my wild days, but it's different kind of walk of shame where it's, it's we're walking backwards through the line and everybody that's getting on the ride sees that we're not getting on.

He's crying and it, and he's just getting big enough where he's hard to hold.

But I went ahead and grabbed him and so he could kind of hide his face because he was feeling embarrassed about being emotional.

But it went until we got outside the ride that a light bulb went off.

And thank God, that happens to be now way sooner than it used to when three days later it was like 10 minutes later and I was like, oh, I've missed the whole moment.

And I and the magic with I've learned with parenting is it's not about the RIP, it's about the repair.

You're going to make mistakes, but are you willing to be humble enough to repair him?

I think the same applies to a lot of relationships.

That's pretty good.

But I, I got down on his level.

And immediately when you get down on somebody's level and you're looking at him in the eye, it's hard not to take him through your process because you realize and you look in some of his eyes, you realize we just all need to be heard.

We want to be heard.

That's why it kills me that counseling is a talking profession when actually it should be a listening profession.

People just want to be heard.

Sat down there and talked to him.

It was it was so easy.

It was exactly what you did with the dinosaur.

It's like, tell me about it.

Tell me about this ride.

Why did it?

Bring up Wow, that's crazy that just happened.

Boom, boom, boom.

He's good.

He's like, I think I want to ride it now.

Of course it was, it was.

We didn't try to go repair it that way, but it repaired and it set set the tone for the rest of the day.

We had a really great experience and so.

That's so beautiful.

Yeah, you you talking about universal just reminded me of the.

Exact scenario that I just gave.

Like, that's insane.

That's so cool.

But yeah, I mean, again, I think, you know, there's so many times in which I could put that example of like, times where I was spiraling and I just took, you know, 5 minutes on the phone with a friend that could just hear me out.

And, you know, you kind of are able to come back to ground, you know, which is why, again, I think loneliness is one of the biggest issues in the biggest.

Like, you know, I started a homeless outreach with my friend Rita called Sammy Sunday's.

It's it's radically changed my life and it's been one of the coolest things I've ever been a part of.

And you know, we always say it before every week, you know, we say food is great.

You know, these little care kits that we give out are awesome.

But ultimately the hardest part about being homeless that we've been told is being ignored, being alone, being invisible.

And so I always say we use the the sandwiches as a vehicle to love people and to listen and to create and cultivate relationship and not drive by like here's a sandwich.

Wish you best.

Like we see 80 to 90% of the same people every single week.

You know, we go to the same parks.

We, we try to do the very the same thing to create a sort of relationship and consistency with people in connection.

Because ultimately, like they'll say one, one person called me, he was having a meth relapse at 2:00 in the morning.

He'd been struggling.

He'd been sober for like a year and he just lost it and he took meth and he calls me at 2:00 in the morning and he's like freaking out.

He's like, they're going to kill me.

They're going to kill me.

I'm like, I'm like, OK, I'm not going to say his name.

I'm like, talk, talk to me.

Like, like, what's going on?

Where are you?

So one, I was able to kind of hear him out, reaffirm the truth a bit.

And he said, my only friends are you, Rita and Jesus.

He's like the only people I talk to, the only people I trust are you, Rita and Jesus.

I'm like, that's insane to me that he doesn't feel like he has anyone else to trust.

But again, after we talked, I was able to really bring him back to reality again, validate him, hear him out and then also remind him of the truth.

And I think that that is so crucial for people.

And so often they just live in these mind spirals and they they go unchecked.

And, you know, it's a years in these loops and this shame and this whatever, you know, instead of being able to talk about it and and and get a little guidance on like, you know, some perspective.

It's like even when I was talking to my mentor last night, I was like, well, I didn't want to tell you because I was afraid that.

And as I was saying it, I realized it was bull, you know, like verbalizing it made me realize like that's not true.

Like he's not going to react like that.

But it's sometimes takes bringing it to the light, you know, which kind of goes back to the first thing you're talking about of bringing things to light in order to really move forward.

Saying the unsaid it's probably the hardest and most important thing we ever learned to do speak the unspoken.

There's 2 two things I want to I want to circle back to you were about to tell me the physical thing that you do your second tool and then I want to bookmark and I want to come back to Sammy Sunday's and ask you a question about the the gentleman that you were able to see.

But can we start with?

I don't want people to miss that tool.

Oh, for.

Sure.

Yeah.

So again, it's thought feeling impulse, truth is sort of the the mental tool that I used to kind of get myself on the right thought path, you could say for like a bit of worse.

And then yeah, there's a couple different ones again that the vagus nerve.

If anyone wants to look into this and nerd out, I like to understand why because it helps me to, to just realize the importance of something like anytime my mom would teach me because again, I was homeschooled, she would tell me do this and I'd say why and she wouldn't explain why.

And so I didn't.

I just, you know what I'm saying?

It was a different thing.

So again, the vagus nerve is responsible for your fight or flight and so there's different ways you can stimulate it to get it to calm down.

Again, I'm sure you know this stuff.

One of them, the most the most helpful for me is to do 4 seconds in, hold for seven seconds and then exhale for 8:00.

So that's inhale for hold for seven, out for 8:00.

And then also there's this, you can rub the back of your neck.

That's another good one that helps me a lot.

Rubbing your arms is scientifically shown to get you out of that state of fight or flight.

There's a little hole above your your hole.

I like this little pocket here that if you wiggle that around, it might look like you're picking your ear.

So don't necessarily do it in public.

But if you wiggle it around here in like a circle, you rotate it that also similar to Vegas nerve.

There's stuff you can do on the floor where you lay down, put your elbows back and you you look to your left elbow for like 30 seconds and then you look to your right elbow for 30 seconds.

I mean, it depends on the level of reset you need.

Sometimes I need 2, sometimes I need 20.

You know, like I said, so honestly, just Google and and find the ones that work for you because there's a ton of different ones, you know, grounding it's you know.

What would somebody Google to find those?

Like what are scientifically backed ways to get out of fight or flight?

You know, I, I asked ChatGPT to put together a, a 92nd little program for me that I can just follow and I'll do all those.

And by the end of that I feel pretty great.

You know, I mean, again, there's everything from grounding, you know, naming 5 things you can see, 4 things you can.

What is it?

Feel Three things you can hear, two things you can.

Activate all your senses, yeah.

Yeah, I'm killing it, but there's just different ones and and again, different tools for different times.

Another one for me that's huge is, is meditation, specifically prayerful meditation, learning how to sit in the presence of God that, you know, not everyone has a relationship with God.

So I wouldn't necessarily prescribe that to everybody, but there is something I've been doing a lot, which is really connecting with the union that we have with God.

And so I say, I am in you, you are in me, we are one.

And it's from that place of connection that my soul starts to breathe, my body starts to relax.

Even as we've been talking, I've said that a few times in my mind, I am in you, you're in me.

We are one.

And it's a it's, it's connecting with your unity with the divine, with, with Jesus.

So that that's, again, I, that's not necessarily one-size-fits-all, but there's just different ways that you can learn how to, you know, get yourself out of that state.

And now I can reliably get myself out of that state.

Like, there would have maybe even a year ago, maybe even six months ago if I had woken up the way I felt this morning, I might not have been able to get to that place of like by this time, you know?

So it's been a journey.

I think, I think it's important for people to hear that because I think often if you're in fight or flight and you've never done any work on it or if you're new to it and you don't, you don't even probably have the words to say fight or flight.

But let's just say you feel incredibly overwhelmed by having a physical or and a mental sensation that you feel overwhelmed a little bit out of control with your body and your mind that we often think that is a mountain to climb.

I got to go turn over every rock in my history and do all that when actually there's some simple tools in real time.

And often when I'm working with when I'm doing performance coaching, it's way more of this than it is any of let's talk about your back story.

It's actually you're getting ready to do something really important.

So let's do some box breathing or let's let's do an emotional body scan or let's do some bilateral stimulation and there's, there's all.

Kinds of all.

Kinds of cool little hacks that these are not like woo woo or pop culture.

They're actually backed in science, as you say.

And I was curious if I really like the the breathing one that you introduce, because it's a little different way that I've done different breathing exercises.

If I haven't done that one, would you be open to taking us through that?

Maybe two or three different.

Yeah, I would love that.

Maybe two or three different versions, or how often however many times you normally do it.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I think they say that if the exhale is longer, it's somehow signals to your body that you're safe.

I don't know exactly why I was homeschooled, but, you know, that's what I've heard.

So yeah, first I think it's important to like notice where you have tension, you know, in your face and your body and just completely relax and like sigh, that's another one.

If you you kind of force a sigh, it actually does your body beliefs like you're safe and it starts to unwind.

And so yeah, it's just a four second breath in.

You hold it for seven.

Pan out for 8:00 instantly.

I already feel better, but I don't know how did that feel for you.

Yeah, it felt, I immediately felt better too.

The XL was was nice, yes.

And it that was where I felt like I released a lot and it I was first thinking 8 seconds is a lot.

I'm going to have to work at that.

But you really don't.

You hold in seven, it's super easy.

Yes, it's totally low.

Yes, you do that a few times and that that to me is kind of a that's my go to, you know, and then I use other tools when I need to.

But you know, there's something in the breath that I think is 1 very grounding and it helps you connect to the present moment, you know, when you're really focused on your breath.

But then again, there's the science behind that that that really does something to your body that I don't understand entirely.

Also, Wim Hof has a really good breathing exercise that I do.

If I'm every time I'm going to do a show, I do a Wim Hof exercise because it it's like 10 minutes of this very intense breathing.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone.

It's.

Kind of breath work.

Yeah, breath work, correct.

Yes, I.

Love them all.

Yeah, I'm obsessed with that guy.

He's cool, fascinating.

He's one.

Got me into cold plunging and oh, nice big plunger.

Now I can't.

Do it bro I I like I take cold showers and stuff but I have not gotten the courage to do cold plunges bro.

I'll do it and I cannot last like more than 90 seconds bro.

I know it's so lame but I like.

Literally can't still get benefit at 90.

That's fair, That's fair.

But have you tried Cryo?

That version of it.

Oh, I yeah, I have a I've done like a sauna for an hour and then you do the is that the?

Freezing cold, it's where you get into.

It's almost like a walk in cooler at a store or something, but you get in and it's cold air versus cold water.

Sometimes that's a little bit.

Easier.

I do like that one better, yeah.

Especially after I'm in the sauna for 45 minutes.

Because then, you know, you just feel like you're alive for the first time.

But we've been, we've been introducing it into our setting.

We've been doing trauma work for years, but we've been introducing contrast therapy into our setting and we're noticing with people classically be diagnosed with PTSD.

Or even if you don't have the diagnosis but you have trauma in your background, that it needs to really be trauma informed or you can end up causing more harm than good by just throwing people into 45° water and making a muscle that out.

I think in the beginning they thought let's get people through it so they know they can get over their fear.

And it's actually it's a little bit more nuanced to that.

So I think there's a slower warm up and a slower process to walk people into that experience.

Definitely.

And again, I think it kind of goes back to like a lot of the different things that I'm throwing out.

Like I said, fasting, I've found tremendous benefits from that.

That does not mean I'm going to tell everyone that they should fast, right?

I don't think.

I personally need to cold plunge because I hate it.

But there's other techniques that I have.

So I totally agree that there's there's nuance to that and there's good research and maybe getting, you know, medical advice on like what is the best way to go about those different things?

And I think learning what works for you, you know, really observing the the different tools and trying a few and figuring out what what are your sort of go to is, I think is, is a beautiful part about this that there's so many different ways that you can kind of learn how to get into a state of rest.

You know it's.

I'm so glad you said that because I think that'll be another big key take away.

We'll go back and summarize and you've dropped all kinds of great Nuggets in here that you just hopefully invites all of us to be in a better human, you know, and, and one of which is I think there's so many experts out there too that are dropping information in from 10,000 feet.

And usually the expertise that sells is the three-step process to fix this or fix that.

But you and I both know that change doesn't often work that way.

It's a little bit more organic, a little bit more personal.

And although they can serve as a road map, be careful not to attach yourself to somebody else's plan.

Right.

No, that's good.

That's that's that's a bar.

That's great.

I have nothing to add.

I am curious if it's OK about something that I've just noticed since I've been sitting with you and it's personal.

So if you know if you want to answer it, you can or if not we can pivot.

But it's happened a handful of times and I was curious enough the first few times I didn't, I wanted to come in and kind of rescue it and say, no, actually you're good.

You're clear, but you'll apologize for the way you're communicating.

You've done it four or five times where you'll be in, you'll go on a riff and you'll be like, oh, wait a minute, I'm I'm lost here.

I don't think I'm saying the right thing or I'm sorry about that.

I'm having an ADD moment and I'm just, I'm curious if you noticed that and if you might know where that might come from.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good question.

I guess I haven't examined that before.

It's definitely been something that I've noticed in interviews that I've done.

I think yeah, there's just sometimes my, my sort of mental journey can be a bit unorthodox or sort of it feels scattered and sometimes I'm almost like apologizing for I, it feels like I'm wasting time or like I'm not making sense, you know, even though I just because it's not like a linear thing and I go all over the place.

I think sometimes it's more like I hope they're tracking with me and I'm, I'm not just too all over the place.

I hope I'm making sense, you know?

I think, I think what I pick up.

On is diagnose me.

No, no I'm not.

I'm joking.

I think it it matters to you that what you say really matters.

And I think you've got a really strong observer and an observer is an internal part of us that is very difficult to develop.

It's one of the first things we try to help people develop when they're going through growth, change and healing.

Is is really self-awareness.

It's your superpower to be able to in real time, think about what am I saying and how is it impacting other people.

I think your observer is really strong.

I've never even heard of that term.

The Observer server that's.

You're catching yourself in real time and thinking about what you're saying.

And sometimes if you go here, you're trying to pull it back here.

And and of course, yeah, I think there's always two sides to every coin.

There's probably some of it, maybe have a little bit of opathology in it resistant to change that behavior, maybe a little bit of like you had.

I don't I don't know the history, but I know I used to feel I used to not stand in the divinity of what I was saying as much and trusted because I my perception is for your age especially incredibly well read, well spoken, great oratory, great storyteller, which we should know that by your professional accolades.

But what you know about things I'm interested in.

It's like we could do this for three hours.

It's an easy conversation.

We just might.

Is this right And and you hit the eject button whenever you're ready.

I'm vibing and I and, and I love it.

I'm the guy that's been doing this for 20 years and you're the guy that's leading us through an exercise for mental Wellness.

And I think people need to see that and feel that.

And, and I and I invite you, I don't know if that's any part of it or not that if you struggle to trust or stand behind what you're saying or if it's just an honest recollection of like, well, I'm a little scattered here, so I'm trying to pull it back.

Maybe both.

Go ahead.

You got.

No, I think, I think it's, it's clicking for me because yeah, I mean, you know, I was, I was homeschooled and in a lot of ways I was no schooled.

Like I didn't really do a lot of school work.

But when I did do school work, my mom and I would always argue, for example, math.

I just could not understand any of it and I would get very, very frustrated.

It's very embarrassing when your siblings are and your younger sister is excelling in math and you can't even get the basics, you know, And so there was a lot, there are many, many days in which I would say I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid.

And my mom would say, no, you're not.

Don't say that.

I'm like, you're wrong.

I'm stupid.

Clearly I can't get basic math.

I'm stupid.

And I was young when I was saying that over myself, just constantly saying that over myself.

And then I'd go into, you know, musical theater and, you know, I, I do a improv class and they, they suggest somebody like Clay Aiken or whatever.

And I'm like, I don't know why I said Clay Aiken, I'm going to pick something else.

You know, they'll they'll say a movie that everyone knows.

And I'm like, I don't know that movie.

And they're like, you don't know that movie, like homeschooled.

And so I always felt like that was, I think it was a joke.

People didn't think it was that big of a deal.

And in reality, it wasn't that harsh.

But it really did affect me because I felt like I'm stupid, like I don't know things that these kids know and I should know these things.

And then there was a time when there was this my friend's mom, you know, she'd be like, how are you?

I'm like, I'm good.

She's like, it's well, homeschooled and stuff like that.

Those comments that really start to attach to your identity of like, I'm an idiot.

I don't know anything, you know, going, I moved out when I was 16 completely on my own, lived in my car in LA.

And I, you know, I, I'd never stepped foot in a real school.

Like I, I went to like one class of Community College, but other than that, I had not really stepped foot in, in school.

And so you're going into the world like without the same education that everyone else has.

And so that has, I think it had an effect on like my perception of myself and my intelligence.

Since that's been a big thing to overcome for me is not feeling like I'm an idiot just cuz I don't know things.

You know, that's been a huge thing.

It's just cuz you don't know something doesn't mean you're stupid, right?

Like, and I used to really, there's a lot of shame and embarrassment around that.

And it's funny though, because going to LA, like where I was from, it'd be weird if you're homeschooled, but then you go to LA and it's weird if you're not homeschooled because everyone there grew up in the industry, everyone's whatever.

And so I actually had a chance at kind of a second life in a way where I could kind of start over and no one really knew I was a homeschooled kid.

No one really cared.

And so that I got better, I think when I moved out, but that was a huge source of insecurity for me for a lot of my life was feeling inadequate or or unintelligent because of my lack of education.

So, you know, I, I think if you're listening, well, let me share my part of the story too, and then I'll, I'll reflect on it.

In 3rd grade, I was reading out loud in front of the class and I wasn't a great reader.

I had a learning disability and that was the first time I got called out to where I really got embarrassed about it.

And it, that was one of the imprints on my timeline.

It was like, you are not smart.

And that follow me, follow me, follow me, follow me old now.

And I was last week.

I'm old to be starting something new.

And my team is really pushing me to tell stories a little better in the social space.

And it's it's an odd thing for somebody like wired, like me.

I'm like, oh, I've always been the behind the scenes guy you really want me to buy.

So they're pushing me like push, push, push.

I also had a traumatic brain injury, multiple concussions, played with an athlete, so I banged my head up pretty good and had a horseback accident, blah blah blah.

And that created some cognitive dissonance where suddenly the content that I felt really well versed in and had spoke to thousands and thousands of people publicly about, I found myself in the middle of the pandemic when all my talks turned online where I would lose it like my content, I would lose everything I've known forever.

And so suddenly I went right back to that imprint.

See, I told you so.

And now everybody would say, if you got post concussive syndrome, you're going to have cognitive delay a little bit.

It'll take you about 12 to 18 months, sometimes people longer.

So if it doesn't matter, that's the fact.

That's like the 4th on the list.

I'm up here 1st.

And the feelings were I told you, you're not smart, you're an idiot.

Three days ago, I'm meeting with my, my creative team and I'm trying to find my rhythm and I'm, I'm doing everything from like, well, I know this stuff, but I'll probably forget it if you throw a camera in my face.

So I better script it and I better put it, you know, use a prompter still.

Mine still feels authentic.

I just need a backup plan.

And, and, and my friend Sarah, she was like, can I challenge that?

And I was like, well, it's not you're going to, so go for it.

I didn't do that.

I was like, of course you can.

She was polite and, and, and she said, I think your best work is when you trust your instinct and you speak on the go and on the fly.

It's authentic.

I trust it, people trust it.

And what she did for me in that moment is is what I was inviting you into, which is I really think you've got a powerful voice.

And I want to invite you into really trusting it, just like I got invited into trusting it and try something a little bit different, which is to be proud of your riffs.

You got these interesting riffs.

Where do you go?

Off topic?

Some.

Absolutely.

Who cares?

That's what makes you interesting.

I mean, you'll start here and it will go.

But it's all interesting.

If I want to come back to something, I'll come back to it.

But I'm like, Dang, OK.

You got from here to here.

Not everybody's brain can work that way.

And I think it's part of your gifting.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And I just want to invite you into sharing more of that gifting unapologetically.

Appreciate that.

Thank you.

That really means a lot.

That's definitely going to stick.

All right, let's talk about Nashville because you're here.

Obviously I'm, I'm biased to my music town.

I love this town.

Everybody boxes in.

It's like, oh, that's where they do all the country music.

But actually there's a lot of different genres that get recorded here and, and I'm a new fan of your music and I'm excited to dig into some of your other work.

But I it was sometimes you're, you're familiarizing yourself with somebody's stuff.

And this was based on a a friend that I trust that said this dude is awesome.

You're going to like him.

And I was like, cool, I can't wait to talk to him.

But then I got inside.

I hope the art's good too.

And it's like, oh, this is this is really good.

I'm jamming to it.

I liked it was easy to listen to and and lyrically, I mean, I've got a note full of lyrics that I thought we might spend a little time when I just ask you, what do you mean here, me here.

But so far we've been talking about lots of different things.

But why?

Why are you in Nashville?

What are you planning to do here?

And and what is it that is propelling you towards music at this stage of your career?

Yeah, I mean, I think the expression in music I found to be one of the most therapeutic for me, you know, as many artists will say, I think again, I think I tend to focus a lot on sort of getting to a place, like, how do I put this?

The songs write themselves, right?

And so my job in my life is like work through stuff, heal, like live life, do things.

And then I can come into the studio and just like vomit.

But if I don't live my life, like there's nothing to write about.

I had a friend who was doing 6 sessions a week and I asked her, I was like, OK, like you're going in six sessions a week.

What are you writing about?

Like if all you're doing is in the studio, like you have nothing to write about.

And she was like, well, you know, I just, you just got to go in every day.

And I'm like, yeah, I understand to an extent, like sort of the grind mentality of that.

But I was like, what if you did for a week and, and you lived life and you went on dates and you, you did whatever, you know, then you have something to write about.

And so I think for me, like I, I finished my last album and I didn't really have anything else to write about.

And so I've just lived my life and, and I've been, you know, in a relationship since then.

And I've, I've seen things and I've, I've traveled and I've, I've met a lot of new people and lived a lot of life.

So now I can come back and sort of unload all that onto the canvas, you know?

And so it's funny though, because I, again, I have such a weird relationship with creativity where I can go six months and not write a single word, not write a single song.

I've.

Heard you.

I've heard you say that before where you just you disappear, yes and and go do life for a while, but I didn't realize it was intentional.

Yeah, Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's not always intentional.

Sometimes I don't, you know, but then I'll get the courage to like, just do it.

And I'll come to Nashville and I'll write 10 songs in five days that are all like my favorite songs that I've made today.

You know what I'm saying?

It's it's very interesting thing.

And so, yeah, I guess that's just what I'm, I'm doing here is I'm working on new stuff, meeting new people.

You know, I always want to meet new collaborators and find those people who are really safe.

I think that's the number one sort of common denominator I need in a, in a writing room is safety.

I actually care much less about your talent and abilities and much more about do I feel vulnerable with you?

Do I feel like I can be safe with you?

Because it's from that safety that that the art can really come out.

Same thing with the fight or flight thing, right?

You have to be able to feel safe to share your deepest darkest secrets.

And sometimes like getting down to the piano and just improvising is one of the most vulnerable things you could do.

And so you need to be surrounded by people who aren't going to judge you for, you know, just throwing paint at the wall.

And so right now I'm kind of doing the speed dating thing, if you will, in the writing room.

And honestly, this whole week, like literally the last three days have been some of my favorite sessions I've ever had.

And I think that part of it is the people that I've met, but a lot of it is the work that I've been doing.

You know, it's, it's all the time that I've spent learning how to meditate, learning how to get out of fight or flight.

Even acupuncture is something that I've been doing lately, which, you know, can be controversial for some reason, but I found like tremendous benefits to my emotional health.

When I started doing acupuncture, I started crying like 3 * a day.

Like there was something releasing there.

And so it's like all these things adding up.

So then I can come back to Nashville and I'm in that sort of energetic frequency, if you will, and I'm able to go in and execute and just like the the stuff just comes out so.

I love that and I was, I was curious about the spiritual side of it because I love your story, the story that I've heard you tell about your your breakthrough moment with the psychedelic experience and then having the trauma from that experience, but it suddenly it woke up this whole other side of your spiritual.

I think it's a beautiful story that we may not all get to time to today, but you should go back and listen to that because I'm I've been following a really following the data and research around psychedelic therapeutic interventions because it's growing significantly.

And I think there's a lot of merit that we're learning and and and sometimes unregulated.

It can be interesting and challenging and everything in between.

But I noticed when my friends that write in the pop space come to Nashville, those that are open about their faith, if their faith-based guys and faith.

I know faith means something different to a lot of people.

But in this context, I'm I'm referring to kind of process of Christian guys that are Jesus followers or whatever bucket you want to put that in when they come to Nashville.

Often it's not as foreign to be in rooms where that conversation is happening.

Sometimes it's a little bit more culturally baked in and some of them feel a little free there to be able to express their self spiritually and emotionally versus some of what you find in the big and bigger urban markets and some people find it a little restrictive.

Just curious if how that's landed for you.

Yeah, I think, I think I just tend to be like authentically myself.

And if, you know, if, if spirituality comes up in the conversation, I don't shy away from it.

I don't think you always need to dwell there.

I think sometimes you can just hang out and make music and it's not that deep, you know, And then other times, like yesterday, you know, me and this other guy realized how we have basically parallel lives and we started unpacking that, you know, and, and it was really cool thing.

And there was another guy there who didn't really have any faith and he was kind of asking questions and he grew up Jewish.

And so we were kind of just comparing like, oh, what traditions were you?

Whatever, you know, And it was just like a casual thing.

But I, I try not to offend anybody.

I try not to impose on anybody.

I try not to really.

Yeah, I, I push anything, but I also don't shy away from it necessarily.

I'm not afraid to talk about it.

So I think it's just a gamble.

And, and yeah, I think every day is different.

I don't know.

Well, that I was going to say one more thing about your observer.

That's your observer that's reading the room.

Not because we all know that anything pushed on us, we're going to resist if we're invited to be confronted into something.

And and there's you're always flirting with the edge.

You're taking a risk when you lean into somebody's story and ask a curious or a hard question that they might feel a little bit like, whoa, you might have felt the hint of that when I came in there because you're like, OK, you're going to what are you diagnosing me with?

But but it you saw what happened is we both softened and it opened up as a recent story for me.

And that's what I hope it does for for all of you.

We could, we could spend an hour talking about things that I'm sure those of you that are big fans of of Josh about his work.

Let's talk about what happened in this chapter, this chapter, this chapter, this chapter.

When I started hearing you talk, I was immediately blown away by how astute you are as an orator and what you talk about your life that you've for your age, you've done a a lot of work and you're really intrigued and interested in it and you're sharing it.

How do I optimize my life spiritually?

How do I optimize my life emotionally?

And I think it's probably why Wes put us together when I told him what I was doing with human school.

He's like, this guy needs to come on.

But I want everybody to hear, 'cause I, I know you started the public thing really early and at a really high, high level.

I've worked with the back end of public professions for most of my career.

And so I know the, the, the challenges.

But one of the the biggest challenges of public people is, is people forget that they're human and and it's dehumanizing and how people are looking at Someone Like You to the point where.

I would take it a step further and say that we've done that with almost everyone on social media.

It's not, it's no longer celebrities, it's, it's anyone, it's the other person on the other side of Twitter.

It's it's on TikTok, it's whatever it is.

So I think that it's it's gotten even worse because there's like no empathy through the screen, but.

Well said.

And I, I think because of what we report out or what people in your case report about you, we make up that we know you and the point that you'll never get to make a first impression again with a stranger that knows your work because you're standing there thinking, I know you and, and people rarely know you.

And that's what my hope was after this conversation was that I feel like I know you a lot better because I've gotten to know the human as much as I do the the, the successful artist and actor and.

Totally.

And I think again, it kind of goes back to what I was saying with my my mentor, right?

I had this image in my head of how he's going to react.

And then we actually talked and it was not the case at all.

And I think that that is so often, you know, people have an idea of me based off of something they heard or something they saw or something they think or whatever it is.

And so sometimes it's hard to kind of feel like you're having to counteract someone's image they already have made-up about you.

But ultimately it's like, yeah, I, I, you know, I've met people and they're like, oh, wait, you're kind.

I'm like, thank you.

Like, I just didn't think you'd be nice.

I'm like, OK, I think that's a compliment, you know, but I get it.

Cuz everyone has their own public perceptions and, and, or not public, they have their own perception of life and their own whatever.

And sometimes a celebrity looks like someone they used to date and they didn't like that person that they dated.

And so, you know, they hate you, even though it has nothing to do with you, you know, And so you learn how not to take it too personally, you know, and how to just be real with whoever you're with.

And if people are going to have opinions, then they're going to have them.

But you can't, you can't let them attach your identity.

And for a while, I've, I've sort of let other people dictate how I feel about myself, you know, but there's also been a counter to that, which is that I try to not let them affect me or not let them think that they're affecting me, which is in turn affecting me.

You know, I'm like, they can't get to me, like they're not going to hurt me.

I know they want to see me suffer.

So I'm going to just prove to them that I'm fine, but I'm really not fine.

And so then you're like trying to almost like manipulate.

How they see you, you know, and it's like, that's just, I've played that game for too long and I'm, I'm a little bit surrendered to that.

Just like I can't change how you think of me.

I'm just going to show up and be myself.

And you know, obviously I'm imperfect and probably have a lot of good reasons to hate me.

If you saw my whole life start to finish, you know, but you know, I got to keep moving and, and, and doing my best to get better.

And it's interesting you said like how I'm so sort of trying to optimize my spiritual, emotional, whatever.

I think there's a level of where that can get a little toxic.

And I've seen it in my own life where I get a little bit too analytical.

Instead of living my life, I'm like trying to figure out all this stuff.

And there's, there's a balance, I think.

But the other side of that is, I think part of the reason why I am so curious about all this stuff is because of the suffering that I've gone through.

And I think that in a way, I'm grateful for what I've gone through because it's, it's forced me to have to wake up.

It's I have no option.

But I mean, I was, there was a good, good amount of time and it's, it's been a long journey, specifically in the public eye, but many, many days of drowning, drowning, drowning, drowning.

And you know, I, I trigger warning, I, I, I'm pretty open about sort of my struggles with suicidal ideation.

And, you know, there was a time when I was on the edge of a balcony sitting on the ledge praying that I would fall off, you know?

And so I've seen the depths of hopelessness and I've seen so much of that so frequently.

And I also understand the roller coaster of mental health where there's days where I feel fantastic and then you get set off and you're just like, I want to die, you know?

And so I think that has is what has pushed me to really try to understand like, OK, what are the different ways that there is freedom?

You know, and I look around and there's so many people in the world who are bound.

They are not free.

And I don't think that there's one answer necessarily.

I think there are a lot of different things to look at in terms of that, and so that's why I'm curious.

I'm like, OK, so you do acupuncture.

OK, I'm not really familiar with that.

Why do you do that?

Oh, let's help me in this way.

OK, Interesting.

I do research and then I try and I'm like, oh, that's amazing.

That doesn't mean I'm always gonna apply acupuncture.

But again, my point of saying that is that there's been so many different struggles I've had in my life, and that's not to be woes me or to victimize myself.

I'm not saying that at all.

Again, in a way, I'm grateful for those struggles because it forced me.

I had no other option.

I was either it was either learn how to get better or it's it's not going to, it's not going to happen.

So that that I think is partially what I would point to if like why I'm such a seeker in that way.

Did you?

And I'm, I'm glad you shared that part 'cause I do think there's way too much stigma attached to the, the concept of suicide or the topic of suicide special ideation.

There's way, way, way more people that have ideation or even attempts.

And we even know working in our space, I've seen it for years since I'm very comfortable in the conversation, but it's still something that we struggle with as a as a humanity to try to figure out how to talk about openly.

But there when you were sitting on the edge of that balcony, sometimes I talk to people who have been in suicidal ideation or that have had survived attempts and different things that everything went into slow motion in that moment and that you could literally remember segment by segment what happened.

And others I talked about, they were completely dissociated from the moment.

Was there a choice or a decision or a thing that happened for you there that was like, let's keep going.

Just curious.

I think it's really interesting because the day that I went on the edge of the balcony, I was feeling good, really good that day.

And then shame got really triggered.

And shame, shame to me is I think one of the leading causes.

I mean, this is not scientifically backed.

I'd have done no research on this, but I, I believe from a spiritual perspective, if shame is the belief that you're unloved or you're unlovable, then that to me is one of the most devastating realities is the belief that you're unloved or are being rejected.

You know, they say that if, if a baby's unwanted, it literally shrinks their brain.

Like rejection is one of the most painful things in the world.

So shame is a form of rejection, I believe.

And so when that triggered, it was just so overwhelming and, and I was so tired of feeling that way, so exhausted.

And, you know, I was just in a manic sort of moment and, and it was a lot of tears and a lot of, and I was sitting on the edge just like, I don't want to do it.

I don't want to do it, but I don't want to live.

I don't want to jump, but I don't want to live.

And I was like, maybe if I fall off, I can, I can cope with that in some way, even though it's, you know, it would be the end of my life.

And I, I, I don't exactly remember the moment that was like, you need to get down.

I think I, honestly, I don't know, I think I might be on the disassociated side because I just remember that moment.

And then I remember calling somebody that I loved and telling them like, Hey, I'm really, really worried about where I'm at right now.

And I've almost done something incredibly stupid and they came over and were able to help me through that.

And then you wake up the next day and you're like, how could I have even possibly gone to that place?

You know, when you have clarity.

But again, I, I say pain has a funny way of convincing you it's going to last forever.

And so often when you're in that state, you think, this is it.

Like I'm always going to feel this way, especially if you have been feeling that way a lot, like, you know, and it's hard in that moment to have that perspective.

But I think being able to reach out to someone obviously helps ground and bring perspective and bring it to light.

And then being able to remember, like, this is a horrific feeling.

And it will pass, you know?

And it's so that's been one of the hardest lessons for me to learn in my journey is like, bad days are OK.

Like, yeah, obviously they're bad.

And like, you survived the last bad day.

And so you're going to continue to be able to survive that.

And but I don't also want to downplay that.

There's a lot of really hurt people in the world and there's a lot of evil and there's a lot of trauma.

And people go through hell every day and they go through war every day, both literal war and also spiritual war.

And so I think for us to not talk about suicide or mental health is really one of the most foolish things we do.

And I do, I will say there is hope I see in this generation.

They really do want to talk about it.

You know, but I've said this in podcasts or I don't know where I've said this, but you know, if you look at the statistics of the rise of social media and the rise of the suicide rate, specifically in young women, it's parallel the, the rise of social media and, and the suicide rate.

And I think it's, it's a really, it begs the question of like, what is social media doing to us?

This sort of public shaming tool.

That is whether, you know, there there's people who are, there's deep fakes of like kids in school that are being passed around and the, the shame that comes from that.

Whatever there is, there's, there's a million different reasons, but I think that there's a dehumanization that's happened with social media.

That is if we don't learn how to figure it out, I think it is one of the most detrimental things of our time and also beautiful 2 At the same time, social media can be a really wonderful thing, but I think that we're just in the beginning of what this world looks like when we're disconnected.

I say connected in air quotes.

But you know, I think I think it's a lot to to look at of like why we are trying to think how to land the plane here.

It's it's just.

I got a way I think you could, could, could land it.

I'd love to invite you into if you're open to it, because I think there's so many people listening that are at a crossroads, whether it's an extreme crossroads or just a crossroads.

I do, but I don't.

And let's say you're on the receiving end of the call you made that day.

What would be some encouragement you might have for somebody at a crossroads in their life?

I think the fundamental thing that everyone needs to know is that they're loved, even even in some really dumb things that they've done, even in some really hurtful things that they've done, that they're loved and that love is worth living for.

I think that is probably the most fundamental truth to to hold onto.

You know, love hopes, love perseveres.

You know, love is the really the reason of living.

And I think that the reason a lot of people don't want to live is because they don't feel loved and they don't feel loved from their family.

They don't feel loved by themselves.

They don't feel loved by God.

They don't feel loved at work.

They don't feel loved at school.

Even if they are loved, if they have beliefs that are blocking them from from receiving that love, that's it's devastating.

It's literally the most, I think it's the most devastating thing in the world.

It's like I said, to be rejected and we not love.

So first and foremost, the groundwork is that you're loved and love is worth living for.

The second is take a deep breath.

You know, like they say that emotions really only last about 90 seconds, you know, and you can have a series of emotions that last longer.

But if we think about it like 90 seconds, right, a life ending decision versus 90 seconds of letting that emotion pass.

And again, people do have episodes that are longer than 90 seconds.

But I'm saying like it's understanding that that these emotions will pass, right?

It's like if if it started thundering and lightning outside, you wouldn't be like, sell the car, you know, grab the kids, it's over.

It's like, no, there's a storm, we're going to hunker down.

And it might be tough, but, you know, ultimately, right, the sun comes up in the morning, all the cliches, but it's just, it's hard because those things so quickly go out the window when you're in that state, you know?

And so, yeah, again, I, I, I think those are a few things that I would say, but I think it depends on what my friend is going through.

There's been a mountain of wisdom Nuggets that you've dropped today that I'm really excited to summarize.

And I'd be taking more notes if I wasn't just so compelled by how you're telling these stories and sharing some of your experience, strength and hope.

But but I think that that one, and I don't know if I've had you for a while, we both came into this thing tired.

So I want to make sure I respect your time And but I'll say if if you heard anything, yeah, go if you heard anything today, it's I think that's that's that's the reminder that is gold is that you are loved and that love is worth living for.

That is about as simple and as profound.

I've.

Never even said that that's.

Just as you can put it I'm.

Going to get that tattooed.

I mean that that literally just came to me just now.

But as soon as you said it, I was like.

Oh God, it's.

Wild I want and and Speaking of loved, if you want to feel that and feel some encouragement, I actually think golden years is a great way to experience and I would, and I usually don't encourage this with with albums, but I would encourage you to do what I did start at the top and go all the way to the.

Bottom.

That's how I designed it.

Yeah, that was the goal.

OK, good, it worked.

Yes, good.

But you had some Nuggets in there like you asked.

You asked for a light and now we started a wildfire.

Kiss.

Your mom and dad because you don't know how much time you have.

Everything will be alright.

Tell me, what if you're still in love with someone?

Oh, I love that song.

Oh, I had a question about that.

That song almost didn't make the album.

I actually, I think that song's all right.

It's not my.

Favorite.

Not your favorite?

But I mean, people like it so.

Were you talking about somebody else or yourself?

Oh, for that song I was talking about somebody else.

OK, I.

I I thought, I wonder if he if he's if.

There's a, you know what's funny you say that Because the producer, Tommy English, he was saying that exact thing.

He was like, it's cool because it's nuanced.

Like you don't really know.

And it could be it's a little ambiguous as to what I meant.

It can be either or.

So yeah, that's good that that landed.

I don't recognize the face in the mirror, and there's nowhere to hide from the face in the mirror.

The face in the mirror is mine.

Look how far you've come.

There's there.

These are just messages that have lyrically come to life in this story that you've put into an album that is really special and something I hope you feel really proud of.

And I hope a lot of you now will will jump in and join me in in becoming a fan of you and what you're creating.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for your time.

Oh my gosh, thank you.

You're you're incredibly wise and kind and, and really you are so like centered and it's just comforting to sit with you and I feel very safe and taken care of.

So thank you so much for for everything.

And this has been one of the most pleasant conversations I think I've ever had, period, let alone on camera.

So thank you so much for what you're doing.

And I think that it's a really beautiful thing to kind of combine.

This is why when W told me about it, I was like, duh, no brainer.

He's like, he's combining psychology and spirituality in a way that like is refreshing and doesn't feel like preachy or, or, you know.

And so I, I think I can testify that that is how it's felt.

And it's felt so organic.

And I think you're going to help a lot of people and we continue to help a lot of people with your work.

So thank you for for doing the hard work, like I said, paving the road for others to Scroll down.

It it's it doesn't go unappreciated.

And I know that the ripple effect of what you're doing is really going to help a lot of people and, and generationally as well.

I believe so, Yeah.

Thank you so much.

That means the world.

Thank you and thank you guys for tuning in.

Thank you for your time.

We'll do this again off camera while you're in Nashville.

I look forward to spending more time with you, but this was awesome.

Thank you.

Amen.

Bless you.

Thank you.