Welcome to another episode of FAX.

I'm your host Steven Boyce, joined by Pat May round.

I think we're on 4 now, round 4, discussing the liturgy specifically in the Book of Revelation.

We've been talking about it from an apocalyptic standpoint, how the Book of Revelation gives to us the behind the scenes that we get to participate in in the Mass every single week.

We did an introduction to that.

We talked about the beauty of it from the church is being addressed in the first 3 chapters.

We looked at the majestic view with Saints and angels and all that come around in four and five.

So we talked about the communion of Saints.

If you missed that, you can go back to all these episodes and see them again.

Last week we talked about the 144,000, particularly because of the things that were going on in the Middle East, Gaza, Israel.

All the dispensationalists are out there.

So we felt like, hey, we're already in the subject of apocalyptic literature.

Let's actually interpret this within the framework that we already have been setting.

And we had quite a response to the 144,000 episode.

If you missed that, please go back as well.

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We do not want to take a lot of time today to do a lot of preliminary.

We want to jump right into Revelation chapter 12.

This is the vision and the sign of the woman and the sign of the dragon.

And we're just going to get cut straight to the point, Pat.

We see in this passage that John has a vision of the assumed Mary.

Absolutely.

Now, some of you just reach for your heart medication, some of you just reach for your Protestant books, and some of you have your jaw on the floor and hopefully will slowly pick it up.

Some of you are like, well that's interesting, Please say more.

So stay with us.

I don't care who you are, what your background is, and what you think about it up to this point.

Open mind, open ears, open heart.

And then if we get to the end of this episode and then you still disagree, you're not hurting our feelings.

We are simply asking, stay with us through the whole entire passage.

We're going to go back to one verse before this, but we will actually want to end there.

We want to build a case through the text, come back.

And one of the things that we pointed out, Pat, is the importance of the Old Testament to understand these visions, to understand what's going on.

We cannot start just by reading the Book of Revelation because everything he's saying is prior visions from Ezekiel, from Isaiah, from Jeremiah, from the Exodus, from Genesis.

You said it earlier.

I thought it was really profound.

There's three major themes that keep showing back up in these visions creation, the Exodus story, and particularly the Davidic Kingdom and promise.

Yeah, the three mountain peaks, if you will.

Good words.

Yeah.

Good words for it.

And so these mountain peaks, all three are going to be present in the very discussion we're having right now.

We're going to be back in Genesis.

We're going to be right into the exodus.

And we're going to look at the Davidic promise through an unlikely source that Pat and I talking out loud, studying together, we're like, whoa, that is too obvious.

Too obvious, and I'll just add to that that that the prophets seem to interpret things that they see in light of creation, the Exodus, and the Davidic Kingdom.

They can't get over.

It no.

The literal meaning and the spiritual meaning have to be understood in light of interpretation.

I think, I think that's often neglected.

And I think when we come to a passage like this, the neglect shows up more when we start interpreting it because instantly we have this vision starting in the words of and a great sign appeared in heaven.

Now this sign is the first time in the whole book that it shows up in that word sign.

Now he says I saw, I heard, I perceived.

Now he's not just seeing vision because if we go back to chapter 4, one of the things that he talks about is being caught up.

And this I looked and behold the door.

So he sees this access standing open in heaven and the first voice.

So he's got all the senses are involved.

Sight, sound.

Yeah.

I mean, it's all here.

He's even tasting.

Hey, I mean, he, he speaks of these things like incense.

He's obviously got the ability to smell.

I mean, these things are all happening, he says.

I was taking the spirit.

And then he starts seeing these things.

This is the first time that we see the word sign.

Now I want to speak to that.

You say, well, whoa, like read the rest of it.

Trust me.

We know there's a woman clothed here, but that's going to be attached to the idea of the word sign.

You talked about the word sign when we were studying this.

Speak to that.

Yeah, so the word sign somayon, which by the way, you and I were also discussing the this kind of interesting tidbit, is that John the Evangelist uses that word in his Gospel numerous times, referring to the signs, the moments when Jesus does something in his ministry that are miracles.

But the word Simeon, you see that word in John's Gospel.

You see that word in John's Apocalypse, the unveiling.

And you also see that word in Isaiah 7.

And that's the sign that was given to the king, particularly because he said, I, I won't, he was trying to be pious.

I will not ask of the Lord to tempt him.

It's like, oh please, you spent your whole life tempting God.

But then God says, fine, I'll, I'll give you a.

Sign a sign.

Now that sign was what?

It was the virgin birth.

A virgin will conceive and this is the opening of why we're bringing this up because when you understand, like if you go to the Book of Revelation, the word sign is used.

3 * 2 are in this passage.

That's right, verse one, verse 3, the sign of the dragon, the sign of the woman.

Now, I think it's interesting that John does not put them together, although the narrative equals one major sure.

It's in one periphery.

But but he wants you to know there's two separate signs, the sign of the woman, the sign of the dragon.

And then we see this later also in the book Revelation, which is going to coordinate with this, which connects to them, the people of God triumphantly working through the issues of the tribulation.

And they're singing the song of Moses, which takes us back to the Exodus again.

So only three places sign is used.

Two are in this passage same word using the Septuagint referencing Isaiah 7, which Matthew's Gospel brings out quoting straight from the Septuagint there as well.

So here's the sign.

So no, he's he's connecting an imagery that's going back to a teaching on the virgin.

A great sign appeared in having a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her head.

The crown was these twelve stars.

Now this is an interesting vision and of itself because there's numerology, there's typology, and also the signals, the signs that are going on here.

So kind of going into this, the image is unique.

It originates probably from 2 passages, Genesis 37 and verses 9 and following because in that passage Joseph has the stream and in this dream he sees his brothers bowing to him and he talks about them as stars.

Now I'm going to read the passage for us to those that are listening on the podcast.

As always, I'll try to do the best that I can to read slowly.

So in Genesis 37 verse 9, he said then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, behold, I have dreamed another dream.

Behold the sun and the moon.

The 11 stars were bowing down to me, he being the 12 stars.

So in this imagery of the woman, there's the sun and the moon and 12 stars.

So in this speaking, what would it indicate to us in Genesis if he's seeing his dream, this vision where it's not necessarily about a woman in his dream, but the sun and the moon come into play here?

And it speaks specifically to some sort of worship or respect or people that have done wrong are going to come and justice is filled.

And his brothers are going to be serving him and even bowing to him.

So there's an element here.

There's another passage that I think is more prolific than this.

So Sun and Moon indicate a couple things.

Let's break down the sun.

So let's start the sun.

We've already talked about it in relation to the Sun of Righteousness in Malachi 4.

But why is the sun?

And what does the sun typically demonstrate in visionary forms?

Also the Old Testament and what's being brought up?

So here's a woman.

Where is the sun with her?

OK, so she is.

It's her clothing.

Speak to that.

Because the lion in Malachi 4 is Sun of righteousness.

So there's a connection here to righteousness, purity.

What does the Sun typify?

Because Joseph saw himself with Sun and moon, because he was innocent of what his brothers tried to do.

I mean, he was, he was a victim.

He was so forth.

So what does sun imply outside of Pagan worship?

What does it imply in Jewish literature?

Yeah, in the Jewish tradition, the Sun spoke of couple of things.

One, it it spoke of the glory of God.

So the sun puts off bright light.

And so the Jewish, in the Jewish tradition, bright light was often understood as God's glory, even the weight of his glory, if you would.

You see this in several places.

You see it first of all in Isaiah 60 when Isaiah's prophesying about the new creation, what's going to happen in the end of days, which kind of correlates to what we're talking about here in Revelation.

But you also see it.

You see it in the transfiguration of Jesus.

He shines like a bright light.

The sun puts off a bright light, usually indicating God's.

Glory and Matthew 17 actually says the word sun.

It says that he that in this shining as the sun, his garment was white like the light.

So here's the woman clothed in a similar so she must be in a glorified state.

State.

Yeah, Christ is transfigured at that moment.

So this is the radiance of that, right?

So glorification, there's a glory that's being because Peter speaks of that transfiguration as we beheld his glory.

And so the glory is here.

So this is a glorified state.

This woman is in a glorified state in that relation.

And then again, it connects to things like the Sun of Righteousness.

In the midst of darkness, there is light.

Even going back to the creation narrative, bringing illumination, clarity, the removal of darkness.

So this woman's clothing has no darkness.

So can we just say purity purified?

The light and illumination that's coming is in a state of purification because it.

Speaks of the absence of darkness.

The absence of darkness is here.

So in this vision he sees a woman.

Her garments are sun connected to all these ideas we just presented.

And then it also speaks of something here too.

It talks about the moon being under her feet.

Now the moon is interesting to the Jews more so than us, because they always look for signs in the moon.

Now remember, the Gregorian calendar is based particularly on the sun.

The Jewish calendar, however, is based on the.

Lunar.

The lunar yes and so we're looking at signs in Joel the the blood moons and you know the.

Moon shall be turned as blood.

The moon is an important sign, that term that we've already been declaring.

Now it's interesting where the moon is.

Where is the moon?

Under her feet.

Under her feet.

So what kind of ideas can we take from the the moon being placed here?

Now her clothing is under this.

Now the moon in of itself does what?

Well, it reflects the sun.

So when you're looking at the moon at night, you're not seeing it produce its own light.

No, it's reflecting the light.

Of the sun, of the light of the sun.

So could there be something to that being at her feet?

The sun is already established as being on her.

The moon is at her feet.

Any correlations or connections here that we should possibly consider?

Well, I do think it it what John is saying in this vision.

This vision is showing us that Mary is reflecting the light of her son.

We believe this woman to be Mary in the most foundational level of understanding, not the only understanding, but the foundational level of understanding.

This woman is clothed with the sun.

She's, as the men on her feet, speaks of her material dignity.

She is a pure person, not to be tainted with anything.

So there is a sense in which she is absolutely pure feminine beauty.

And you know, that to me is where you see this correlation between Mary being connected always to her son, our Lord Jesus.

Like she's not in competition with him, He's not in competition with her.

This is his mother.

And so they are always working together in in, in their essence, in relationship.

And so that becomes important to another passage because the sun and the moon seem to always be connected.

They're not really separated because you have the source.

And the reflection.

And so when people come to this passage, and some of you have already gone here, in your mind, you say, well, guys, this is talking about Israel.

This is talking about the church, the true Israel.

You know, Catholics are coming here.

Well, this is talking about Mary.

We're sitting here and actually saying yes, yes, at the tall of it.

Yes, because as the sun and the moon are consistently working together to create what's in our environment, so to these principles of truth are connected and working together.

You cannot have one without the other.

You cannot have this narrative like, oh, this is only talking about the church with removing Mary or removing the nation of Israel.

You can't just have the nation of Israel and remove Mary when she is the ultimate proclamation of this story, which we're going to see in a minute, Matthew and so forth.

And then ultimately it brings in the church, which we believe spiritual, true, spiritual Israel without these things either.

So to sit here and try to slice and dice these and segregate them, it's like trying to separate the function of the sun and the moon as we see them played out.

Even in this vision.

We now have her appearance to the head.

OK, she's wearing a crown.

A crown.

Now, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what a crown represents.

OK, a female wearing a crown is a queen.

Queen.

OK, so let's let's not play games here.

He sees a queen.

Yep, he sees a queen.

Who has radiating light from her?

She's wearing this vestment, likened unto the Son of God's vestment on the Mount of Transfigurations.

She's a glorified righteous state.

She is seen as bringing subjection under her feet, the moon.

So there's a subjection of the lesser light because if you go back to Genesis, you have the greater light and the lesser light.

So it's being brought into full unity in this person.

Now, in this story, she has 12 stars in the making of her head.

Now, we talked about the 12, and I mentioned it through the vision.

That's where Genesis 37 comes into play, because in Genesis 37, it's the 12 tribes.

These are the 12 tribes, the covenant community, the promise, the patriarchy that goes back to this promise to Israel.

So in the number 12 we find constantly that it represents the covenant community.

The covenant community does represent a couple of things.

As we sated, we see the children of Israel here, we see national Israel in the vision.

But it can't just be the national Israel only, because what good was the nation of Israel if it didn't produce what becomes the very virgin that conceives as the sign to those people, and that from her comes from her womb the Messiah who saves the people and does what was promised to Abraham, that through your seed.

The nations.

The nations will be blessed.

We've already talked about that.

We're not going to repeat that.

But in this, she has 12 stars.

But there's something else about her that's interesting.

She is pregnant.

She was pregnant again.

Let's not overthink.

Let's not overthink this.

She's pregnant and has a crying out in birth pains.

We're going to come back to that and agony in giving birth to a child.

Who else could this be?

Well, it's not the nation of Israel.

No, somebody said, well, the children of Israel are bringing forth the Messiah, not through the means of just a woman.

I understand that the children of Israel are seen through Zion as a woman multiple times in the Old Testament, but there is a a bigger picture going back to Genesis 3 here that's about to take place.

The woman is not mentioned anywhere as being pregnant.

Where's the husband?

Where's that?

Like, there's none of that.

It's just a woman who has a pregnancy who is giving birth in great agony.

Now let's talk about Eve.

What was the curse given to the woman in Genesis 3 when she sinned her curse?

Now Adam had his.

He did.

But Eve had hers.

What was her?

Serpent had his Eve's curse was that she would give birth and pain and paper.

What condition is this woman in?

In our passage, she's in travailing birth pains, ready to deliver.

You cannot go back.

Into this passage without hitting genesis 3 and thinking eve why does eve become significant here because eve was not an ethnic Jew, she was the mother of.

All.

The all the living, all living.

What is it about that that we see connected to even the description because Mary's not mentioned here, Israel is not mentioned here, just the description of the woman.

So where did woman get the name in Genesis 3?

Did God give it to her?

No, Adam.

Adam named her woman mother of of the living, mother of living things.

So here, that's what Eve means.

Mm Hmm.

Now it's interesting as we go through this connection between Mary and Jesus, that relationship is also brought out through not the vision of John, but the Gospel of John.

At no point in John's Gospel does Jesus call her mother.

Never.

He indirectly references that the narrator does when it speaks of say on the cross woman, behold your son talking to John son behold your mother, but he's in referencing that not to his own personal connection, but to John also.

We back up we go to John chapter 2 at the wedding of Cana.

What does he say about his mother?

Isn't call her Mary doesn't call her mother?

He calls her a woman.

Woman.

Now in this direction of connection between him and the mother, why woman?

I do believe it goes back to the Genesis concept that Adam called Eve woman and that we're looking at her as the new Eve.

Mary becomes for the people, the new and better Eve, just as Christ is the new and better Adam.

Now you say I don't, I don't believe that.

Well, that's fine.

I mean, we're going to bring up some slides here and I'm going to show you and the church writings of the Church Fathers.

They could not get over very early this connection between Eve and Mary, that that one woman brought something into the world that the other woman undid.

That's right.

That there's this Eve that was created as a pure and and, and righteous virgin who corrupted by her decision with the man, humanity and the offspring.

But that through offspring, by bypassing this, there's going to be another woman who reverses this very thing.

That's right.

And that the prop this prophecy in Genesis 315 of what's called the proto evangelio, this this first mentioning of the gospel that there would be battling going on between this woman and her seed and the seed of this serpent.

And enmity between her and the serpent.

Which is going to come into the second sign that there's a trying and attempting to destroy this pregnant woman.

Take out the child, remove him.

Now I'm going to mention some theories in that, but we're going to stay with this this theme of the woman, She was told that she would experience agony and child pain.

And then we have this lowly woman in the little town of the Nazareth region who is now being visited by an Angel in Luke chapter 1, being told that she is grace filled the graceful.

K keratomene.

One full of grace and that she is going to produce a child.

Now she naturally asks the question, how is this possible?

I haven't been with a man, and he gives this Immaculate idea that she is going to become pregnant, not by a man, but by the Holy Spirit coming upon her, and that this child would be of the seat of David and so forth, this promise that would take his Father's throne.

Now all that's paralleled here.

There's so much that we could get it.

But I want to stay with some of the Church father quotes too, because one of the things that we're going to see is just in the martyr and I'm going to bring it on the screen.

But he says he became man by the Virgin being Christ, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive destruction in the same manner which it derived from its origin.

For Eve, who is the virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death.

So one woman was created perfect as a virgin.

She was given this opportunity of obedience.

She chose disobedience by the word Catch it of the serpent.

That's right.

She's she chose to believe the word of the imposter.

And we're going to talk about the imposter in a minute because he is perceived as an imposter in the vision.

That's right.

Don't miss it.

But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the Angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her, that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, which I just referenced in Luke 1.

And the power of the Highest would over shadow her.

Wherefore also the holy thing begotten, and hers the Son of God.

And she replied, Be it unto me, according to thy word, And by her he was born.

Now this was in his dialogue with Trifo.

Now one of the things that she did is she also received the word of the Now this word didn't come from a corrupted Angel, but a good one which was delivering the message of God.

Now the serpent is saying, Are you sure?

God said that when she knew he had already delivered that word, he put doubt on it.

Gabriel's bringing the message for the first time.

She says, let it be done unto me as it has been spoken.

She received a word too, but she didn't just receive the verbal word, she received the word himself.

And so in this she and her obedience is about to break loose, something that Eve brought by disobedience and that disobedience had consequential for females through the birth process of pain.

So remember that because he sees this sign of the woman in travailing birth pains, which is supposed to bring us back.

Irenaeus comes in and against heresies book 3 and he says, and thus also it was that the not of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary, which is just what we read through Luke 1 and reflected in just in the martyr for what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief.

This did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.

So pause here.

Come back to this.

What what is significant about the new Eve concept?

Now he doesn't use the word new Eve.

That's developed a little bit more later, but what do you think is important in this visionary form of Eve bringing disobedience by believing one word, corrupting and bringing the penalty of birth pain, hears Mary.

She's on the scene.

She chooses to obey.

As a result, she's fulfilling not only the promise to Eve, but the curse to Eve through a childbearing process.

She.

Brings forth through her obedience, salvation to the world that which undid the virgin Eve and Adam, bringing sin into the world.

Seriously too.

Like if you think about Paul, what he writes about Adam, you know his sin brought death to the world, but the new Adam has brought life to the world.

Same concept with Eve here that the Father's Irenaeus and Justin Martyr are alluding to that John speaks of very greatly in his.

His gospel account especially is that the New Eve is in work and in tandem with the new Adam, bringing about salvation and righteousness into the world to undo what had happened with the serpent in the garden in the beginning.

Which brings about the curse that's pronounced that we've been alluding to, that she would feel the travailing birth pain.

Which I think has a deeper meaning, not necessarily to birth itself because Paul uses the same terminology, birth pains.

Jesus uses the same terminology in Matthew 24 in the Olivet Discourse, The little apocalypse, if you will.

But the the idea of birth pains.

When does Mary suffer?

Well, there's no greater moment in her suffering than when she sees her Son redeeming the world on the cross as he's dying in the crucifixion.

In the crucifixion.

Which is exactly what was prophesied to her after he was born.

Remember, Jesus was taken to the temple to be dedicated.

And in doing this, you have the proclamation.

When he's there, he's seen by two people, one man, Simeon.

Simeon.

And Simeon speaks to this very nature of what's going to happen to her feelings, and it's, he says that a sword.

Will Pierce through your.

Heart will Pierce through her heart this agony.

Now she is 8 days past birth when this is happening 'cause they're bringing him for circumstances.

Following the ritual of the Jewish law.

So think about it from his perspective as Simeon is looking at this whole entire thing.

Simeon gives us proclamation.

He looks at this woman who just probably went through the most excruciating pain of her life, and there's a lot of debate about whether she felt pain or not through childbirth.

I mean.

The church's teaching is that she most likely did not.

Yeah, yeah.

So here's So what if that is true, what would be her greatest pain in relation to that?

Because of the reversal of the pain, I think there's room for debate whether or not she did or did not.

That's not the point that we're.

Making here.

The point is that the the focal pain that she was talked to about, the Angel didn't say you're going to experience pain that may have came with common sense.

But there is a pain that is mentioned to this woman, and it's from a old, old man who was promised by the Holy Spirit that he would see with his eyes the Redeemer.

The salvation in the world.

And so in that he does speak to her pain 8 days after birth and that it would be on the cross or that it would be in his death.

Yeah, it was a she would experience something.

It was a foretelling of his death.

Now this child that is in the vision seems as if he's bringing about.

He's about to come, but he's going to be anticipated.

His arrivals anticipated through his enemy, the dragon, the second sign.

Now I want to talk about the second sign.

But before we do that, I want to go to the most unlikely Old Testament book to talk about the woman also with the sun and the moon.

So we've established the Joseph vision.

She's crowned with the covenant people.

He is radiant like the sun with the moon under her feet.

The reflective nature here that we're talking about.

She's fully imaged with pregnancy, ready to give birth.

But there's another image of her that I think brings us to Luke more definitively than any of the assumptions we could have possibly made thus far.

And that's in Song of Solomon chapter #6 Now in this, this vision, or in this poem, if you would, that is given of this beautiful Shulamite woman, Solomon is describing his bride with the light.

He speaks to her as beautiful as tears of my love and the loveliest Jerusalem off.

You know, more than the armies, more than all these 60 Queens and 80 concubines and the virgins without number, right?

So it comes in, in chapter 6 and verse #9 he says, my dove, my perfect one, is the only one, the only one of her mother, pure to her who bore her.

The young woman, the young women saw her and called her, bless the Queens and concubines.

Also they praised her.

Who is this who looks down like the dawn, beautiful as the moon, bright as the sun, awesome as the army with banners?

So he compares this woman, the Shulamite woman, with the beauty of the sun and the moon, but also speaks to her as pure and to her mother as perfect.

Now, this, this is important, you say?

OK, All right, guys, I see where you're going with this.

I see what you're doing.

You're trying to tie this up to Mary.

Yes, we are.

I want you to answer these simple questions.

If you're listening to this again, keep a mind.

Keep your mind open.

I know you write your arguments down for later.

Keep an open mind and take notes in the meantime.

Not to argue.

Listen to understand, don't listen to respond.

In this, this poem, this Hebrew poem, the woman is described as my perfect one, the only one.

She's unique.

She is different from all other women.

All other women.

Can we please just pause here and speak to Luke 1 when the Angel approaches her?

So start that.

When Gabriel addresses Mary, is she just like every other woman?

She's not.

How?

How not?

Let's prove this.

By the grace of God.

OK, something about her was given not in of herself.

By the way, let's debunk this idea in the the teaching here that Oh well, Mary was special because of her.

Nowhere does she say that.

Nowhere does anyone say that she is in the position she is in by grace.

People say, well, she was immaculately conceived.

That would mean she's equal to Jesus.

False.

That would be false.

Because her and my Protestant friends will go OK, It says in her song she called him my savior.

Well.

Sure, Yeah, he did save her.

He did save her by grace when she is addressed.

She has received this invitation this this greeting that is unique from any other greeting favored 1.

Highly favored 1.

Highly favored one she must be better in the sense of above stands above all other women, she.

Stands out.

This woman, according to Solomon is greater than 60 Queens, 80 concubines and virgins without number.

She is perfect and the only one, the only one of her mother pure to her who bore her.

She to her mother was pure from birth.

OK, back to Luke 1.

Can that be proven in the pronunciation given to her as she's greeted?

Because the verb that is used of her is not that she will become this, but that she is already this.

Read it for us, Luke 1.

In the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph of the House of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.

And he came to her and said hail full of grace.

Notice he doesn't call her by name, he calls her by title.

Title.

He refers her to her as a title.

Oh, highly favored one.

OK, Keratomene.

Which is in a tense that has already happened.

Yes, it's passive.

It's it's it's, it's already been done.

Done to.

Her, it's been done to her.

Again, she did not conjure up righteousness in of herself.

This isn't some weird like oh y'all think she's better than everybody because of her?

No we don't.

We think that she was given a special grace that exceeds anybody's opportunity.

And if God wants to do that, he can do it.

In fact, he kind of said it was going to happen anyway.

He said it in the proto evangelium.

The state of the woman is unheard of.

Women don't produce seed.

Women are not the ones who produce seed.

That comes from the male.

And that was what was so extraordinary about the sign in Isaiah 7 that a virgin would conceive.

That is the the the sign is developing.

So how can the seed produce?

How can the seed be produced from a woman?

That's the promise.

Eve's trying to figure it out.

She wrongly assumes it to be Cain.

I believe in chapter 4 of Genesis and now it's developed by the time of Isaiah that I'll give you a sign.

A woman is going to conceive.

Not just a woman, but a virgin woman is going to conceive.

Now we come and he's greeted there was a virgin named Mary and she's now going to receive the ability to conceive by the grace of God.

Now this comes into play with who is Mary?

Who is she reflected on in the Old Testament?

We're getting there.

Stay with us.

Stephen, I just, I want to say one thing to our audience.

I was trained to read Scripture in the sense that God was competing against all humans, that he was in competition against all of us, that there was a a manner of competition here between the holy and the unholy.

But what we fail to understand is that that's not who God is.

He's not an isolationist.

He works in harmony with His creation.

He wants to bring about creation to His glory.

God doesn't lose glory.

He has glory infinite.

He's not trying to add to His glory.

He wants to bring His people into His glory.

And He does that through the means of human agency.

He always is inviting human beings to be a part of His plan of redemption.

Mary's the same thing.

He's not competing against her and she's definitely not competing.

She was going to compete against him, right?

She was working with him by giving her great Fiat.

Let it be done to me according to your word.

And so in that that obedience to her, that's where the fathers are coming and saying this is what reversed where Eve went wrong, the the first version that went wrong, but it's through the first version's failure and C bloodline that another would come and undo.

What she created to use the words of Irenaeus, loosen the knot.

Loosen the knot that has been tied.

Now in this in this song of Solomon's statement, we see the connection here to the purity, that there is a purity not just in the sense of notice it.

My dove, my perfect one, is the only one unique, something special here.

And she is not only perfect to him, but to the mother.

So even the mother saw her as the only one who was pure, pure almost as you.

And there may have been siblings or something like that, we don't know.

But why this one?

There's something unique, something special, not just a Psalm.

Because he chose her amongst all the other women.

He had a lot of wives and concubines and even talks about these other Queens, but there's something about her that goes above other women, not just to her, not just to him, but to her own mother.

Now we don't have time.

We've talked about the Proto Evangelium of James and other writings like that where we see this play out through Mary, that she was seen as special from the beginning and that she was put in the temple.

We didn't.

We've we've reached that and talked about that on numerous occasions in this program.

Maybe one day we'll do a whole episode just on that document.

We've covered it extensively.

But for the sake of time and argument, here is a woman who is being perceived as perfect to Solomon, who is a son of David.

Let's just pause there.

Who is giving this pronunciation?

The son of David, Solomon.

And to the mother herself, she is seeing her own child is different from others and pure.

Pure keeps showing up here.

But there's another thing that happens here.

If you're still not convinced the young women saw her and called her blessed.

Now, I'm going to share the screen here because I think for the sake of argument, I need to show it to you, not just say it so you don't take it for our word here as we're just, oh, you guys are reading into this a little too much.

Mark Hariusen is the word used for blessed.

OK, It's a verb.

The word blessed is a common word.

Macarios is used by Jesus.

We talked about this.

Blessed is the man, and blessed is this person in the Sermon on the Mount.

Sermon on the Mount in other places.

The Beatitudes.

This verb is only used in the New Testament in this form 2 * 2 times.

One is in James, referring particularly to the the person who perseveres that that they'll experience what?

Here's another place I'm going to swing over and share the other screen and Luke chapter #1 because in the passage you're currently in is the only other place that it is used.

Now read the rest of the passage and I'll show it in grief.

And she says, For Behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed or blessed.

Blessed, What word is Mary using?

It's right there.

Same word, same word will count me blessed.

Same form, same reaction.

We know this is going to tie into the church.

This is bigger than Mary.

I cannot say it enough.

I'll say it again.

We recognize and choose not to slice and dice that the the pictures here of Israel into Mary and into the church and we're going to explain why we don't separate them in at the end of this.

But there is no need to separate these things.

We see the bride of Christ here.

We see how that attaches to us and how we're involved in this.

But all of this was done through the means of a woman who is in the Galilee, Nazareth region that was given these graces through the line of David.

This is a daughter and she is now going to be attached to the queen position above all Queens, above all versions, above all concubines.

She is going to be something greater and hold a place as beyond others.

Because, you know, think about it, there's a lot of competition in Solomon's actual life.

She sits above all these.

This is the queen.

So what do we see in Revelation 12A?

Queen.

And let's not forget it's actually Solomon's mother.

Yeah, who was considered the queen?

And so the the Queen Mother was always the one who was referenced in the succession of the kings of Israel.

When you read the Succession of the Kings of Israel in First and Second Kings, what you find is a listing of the king himself and his mother, who is always considered the queen.

The Queen Mother over and over again and there was 1 Queen Mother who pushed his son in her son into idolatry and they removed her from the position, from the position.

So it is a position and if Jesus is a king, he's the lion of the tribe of Judah.

He's the king, which you.

Do believe that right To our audience listening, we have to start at the very foundation of who Christ is.

Christ is the word Mashiach.

Right comes the word Mashiach, anointed 1 Anointed One Holy One, which is the son of David, who is the king of Israel.

And so in that the King, all through the the times of Israel had a throne established for the Queen Mother.

For the Queen Mother.

OK, so you see, remember we said the three pillars or these three ideas that continue to come back in the visions creation.

We're touching on Genesis 3 fall.

We're looking at the creation of the sun and the moon and the reflective nature of it.

We're talking about it in prophecy.

We're looking at it from the relationship of the, the, the dragon who we're about to introduce.

And now we're looking at all these things as it comes to the Exodus and the, the descendants of David, this kingly figure, this connection to this David family and his Kingdom.

Now we're introducing those 3 pillars in this one vision.

But here it is in Luke 1, the same word.

Remember what he says, the young women will who saw her, called her blessed.

The same thing that Mary said, all generations will call me blessed, all generations, not just her own generation.

So in this she even goes on to say, he even says the Queens and the concubines also praised her.

Who is this?

Who looks down like the dawn, beautiful as the moon, bright is the sun.

And now we're in Revelation 12.

And what is it that John says he sees?

The same imagery.

I see this woman, this woman which takes us to the whole entire identity we just covered, and she's clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and she is given this crown with the Covenant community on her head.

She's a.

And then he sees her in birthing pains and agony while giving birth.

And then a second sign appears.

Behold, a red dragon.

A red dragon.

Who is this red dragon?

Well, here's where the part that gets me worked up.

Because in these things, people look at these signs and go, oh, the Dragon's a devil.

We don't argue that.

Oh, the child, yeah, that's Jesus.

But the woman?

Oh, that's not Mary.

Yeah.

No, no, no, no.

It's very interesting to me.

And look, I used to read this the same way I used to think, oh, that's not really Mary, that's just Israel or it's alluding to the church, but it's not Mary, really.

I'm sorry.

I have to admit that I was actually not reading the text appropriately, fairly.

Yeah.

So the dragon comes in, nobody disputes that he's red.

That's the the color now in this chapter 64174 scarlet red are pictured all through the Book of Revelation as blood.

As blood.

Now the the red would indicate the bloodshed of the massacres that took place, killing people, killing the the blood of the martyrs if you would.

Now he has also a description just like the woman had a description.

He has seven heads with 10 horns.

Now we we talked about these images and numerology.

7 is the number of completion.

10 is a number of authority.

Now that that's even seen just in the the sign of the horn.

The horn itself shows authority.

Kingdoms typically are demonstrated by horns.

So here's this this this being this beast, this dragon.

We're going to talk about the Dragons in a minute and how they're used.

He also has a perception.

He has these heads and these horns which symbolize 7 completion horns, authorities.

So he's personified as a being with complete authority.

Now he doesn't really have that because we're going to find out in a minute.

This is what he's projecting.

He's projecting that he's important, that he is a king because notice his description.

He is also wearing something on his heads.

7 diadems.

Now in the diadems, they represent a symbol of royalty or sovereignty, if you would, and Isaiah 28, verse 5.

I'm going to go to the Old Testament here, and Isaiah 28, five, we're breaking down these visions.

Now remember, it's interesting that John sees these as separate signs.

He does.

Separate signs Isaiah 28, verse 5.

In that day the Lord of hosts will be a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty to the remnant of His people.

So the Lord himself is going to be described as a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty for His people.

This is what He is perceived as by His people.

So this is a description that should be designated to the Messiah, to the coming one, where the people will look at Him and say My King, my King.

Now we mentioned that we see the queen.

So where's the king?

Well, there's an imposter of the king first.

Now if you don't believe me any further later, we see this true description of the true King of kings and Lord of Lords in Revelation 19.

So let's go over to Revelation 1912.

So in the Old Testament, God said that He would be for his people a diadem, a crown of glory, while the true king is going to be wearing diadems on His Revelation 19 verse 12.

I'll start verse 11.

I saw heaven open and behold, a White Horse, one sitting on it called faithful and true.

And in righteousness he judges and make wars.

His eyes are like the flame of fire in his head.

On his head are many diadems.

Many.

Many.

Now in these diadems he has his name written on on them, but no one but himself.

Now here's an interesting point.

He has many diadems.

Now in our passage in Revelation, we see 7 diadems represented here.

So he's trying to say I'm the final king, I'm the complete king.

Now there's an innumerable amount on Jesus when he returns.

So we have these competing figures who project themselves as kings.

This one seeks to destroy the king.

Now the imagery is the King of kings.

Now his imagery is that he is waiting for this child to be born.

So he knows it's coming.

He's been put on alert.

He doesn't like the idea being competed with.

Now we're going to go back to the Old Testament, but let's go back to the Luke narrative and the Matthew narrative of Jesus and Mary.

Now, this announcement is that the child that Mary is going to be carrying with her is the son of David, a king.

Now, in Matthew chapter #2 these kingmakers come from the east.

They're called wise men.

They come looking in Jerusalem.

We're here looking for the king of the Jews.

Now there's a king that hears that and says, really, what kind of king?

I'm the king, right?

Where is this king?

We don't know.

We're hoping you could tell us.

And so he brings out his scribes and his scholars and they find the, the Micah prophecy that says in Bethlehem.

He says, now when you go find this king, you, you come tell me about him.

So I'll come and worship him too, right?

So they're they knew the enemy knows there's a king that is going to be perceived.

Now the minute the imposter king of Israel that doesn't want competition finds out a king is born.

What does that Herod king figure decide to do to eliminate the rivalry of this king?

What does he do to the children?

Yeah, he slaughters all the male children who are 8 who are two years and younger.

So hey, I've got competition.

Kill him off.

Now, he's not the first king to kill Jewish children, is not.

So this takes us back to the imagery of the Exodus, and it also takes us back to the imagery of the dragon.

Now some may ask, why isn't he the serpent here?

If we're seeing all these Genesis 3 analogies, why isn't he the serpent?

He's the dragon.

It's a great question because in the Old Testament we see that the dragon is personified in many places as a representative of kings who went evil.

That's right, including Pharaoh himself.

Now Pharaoh is seen as this.

In going back to Isaiah 27, you see this idea of a dragon.

You also see it in Psalm 7413 through 14 in reference to Pharaoh.

He is called a dragon.

So let's go back to Psalm 74.

We're going to come back to Matthew.

We're going to see this come to play.

You say you guys are jumping around a lot.

We are, because you got to do a lot of preliminary work to show you that we're not making this stuff up, that all of this.

Any Jew that's reading Revelation is going to be thinking of the passages that we're showing you.

So we're going to Psalm 74.

We're going to look at this description, verse 13 through 14, You divide the sea by your might.

You broke the head of the sea monsters on the waters.

You crush the head of Leviathan.

You gave him the food of the creatures of the wilderness.

Now in this description, He's going back.

If you go through this whole Psalm, this is God arising who He feels like He's forsaken his people, but he's actually going to come down and direct them and notice what He does.

Verse 9, in that same Psalm, we do not see our signs.

There's no prophet, there's none among us who knows how long, Oh God, how long is the photoscoff is the end of me to revile your name.

Then in verse 12, yet God my king, who is of old working salvation in the midst of the earth, Then he says, you divide these people, then you're going to crush this dragon, this leviathan, you're going to crush his head.

Leviathan is going to be crushed and given for food to the creatures of the wilderness.

That's important because we're going to talk about the wilderness in a minute.

We are.

Where the woman gets driven.

Now notice what he does.

You split open the springs and the brooks.

You dried up the overflowing streams.

Yours is the day.

Yours is the night.

You establish the heavenly lights and the sun.

You fixed the boundaries of the earth.

You made summer and winter.

Now catch this.

What's happening here?

He's taking his people and he's using the Exodus analogy of Deliverance.

That's exactly right.

He's harkening back to the Exodus because he already asked the question, How long, O Lord, will the foe scoff?

How long will he make mockery of us?

And what does he do?

He goes back to remembrance of the Exodus.

And in that remembrance, he remembers certain things.

They were chased and they were trying to be destroyed by this Pharaoh, this, this dragon, this Leviathan figure.

And so here in this this Psalm, he's saying you're going to take them and you're going to crush the head of Leviathan.

What should that cause you to do?

That goes back to our prophecy in Genesis 3, that the seed of the woman would crush the head of this serpent.

But they we could see echoes of this where God crushed a, a, a person who tried to destroy them, to destroy their children.

He did this with Pharaoh.

He did it with Herod.

And do not, do not forget the fact that there's so much recapitulation told in the story of Herod and Pharaoh.

Same type of situation that people.

Are and Matthew uses those parallels.

He does indeed.

He, he talks about it and then what ends up happening?

They escape and they go to Egypt, into the wilderness.

What happens to this woman after giving birth and trying to do these things?

The child's caught up.

The woman is sent out into the wilderness, which we believe typifies the church going in through this great tribulation, the true church, true Israel.

And so all of those things are coming into this, but let's not lose sight of what's happening.

The dragon is seen, right?

There's another dragon called Rahab later in the Psalms and Psalm 89, verses 9 through 10, which was the designated name for Egypt, which was shown as a sea monster, similar to what we see in Job 2612.

It's also found in Ezekiel 29, three and Ezekiel 32 verse 2.

All of these images of our dragon or this, this monster, the sea monster, this beast.

But what happened every time God save us from this thing, save us from this thing.

Well, there's going to be a a king.

Remember what he says yet God, my king is from of old working salvation in the midst of the earth.

You divided the sea by your might, you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the water, you crushed leviathan.

So God the King is going to do this.

So the king is now sent.

Here's the woman.

She's a queen about to give birth to a king.

The king is coming this this figure's licking his chops, ready to devour the child.

Another sign appeared in heaven.

Behold the great dragon, the seven heads.

So he's impersonating.

He has complete authority.

That is a very key component.

He is impersonating the real king, yes.

He's not the real king, but he wants you to think he is because the real king comes later with the diadems.

Now, what's he trying to do?

He stood before the woman.

So he takes down a third of the stars of heaven, which are angelic beings cast into the earth.

The drug.

We're going to come back to that when we do it another episode on Michael.

We'll come back to that imagery.

Focus on the woman stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she bore her child, he can devour it.

We just saw that in the imagery of the Exodus.

We saw that in the story of Jesus and stuff.

Again, is anybody doubting that the child is Jesus?

Is anybody doubting that the dragon is the devil?

Is anybody doubting the figures here?

So why doubt that the woman is Mary?

Well, that's because she represents Israel and the church or the church.

Yeah, we've already established that.

But we're not separating these things.

We actually think they're all encompassed.

She actually personifies the people of God in both the old and the new.

Yes.

Both the old and the new.

Which is why she's wearing the representation representation of the covenant of people on her crown with the 12 stars.

So here it is.

The dragon is ready to devour.

She gives birth to the male child, one who is to rule all nations with the rod of iron.

Who's going to do that?

Have we not heard a prophecy that says that he's going to rule the nations with the rod of iron?

These things are all prophesied.

But her child was caught up to God and to his throne, so this child was taken up.

Resurrection and ascension.

Ascension.

Resurrection, ascension, because he's taken to the throne of God.

We already saw that personified in Revelation Four and Five.

He's now seated at the throne.

He's given this opportunity of worship with the Father.

That's what Hebrews talks about.

He was taken up, He was given seat at the right hand.

Its enemies are made his footstool.

All that is encompassed in this idea.

The woman flees to the wilderness where she is placed and prepared for God and where she is nourished for 12160 days, which is the same time the children of Israel goes back into the numerology.

There.

It is also about the same exact time that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were in Egypt.

That's right.

So don't miss these connecting facets.

They're here for us.

So yes, it represents more than her, represents the covenant community.

We've already established that.

But you cannot get Mary out of this.

Now we see the sign of the woman.

We see the sign of the dragon.

It's Genesis 3.

The battle has begun that the serpent would try to destroy the seed of the woman.

He's ready to devour it.

That child's going to be born.

Crush the head of this leviathan dragon figure.

It's going to destroy the enemy and reverse it.

Not alone, but with the woman, with the woman, the Queen of Heaven.

Where is John when he has his vision?

He's in heaven.

He sees a sign where he tells you in heaven.

Does John believe that the mother of God, the Theotokos, is in heaven crowned, depicting the covenant community of God and deliverance to where her son was given the throne of David that was promised to her?

And Luke 1.

And is she standing there in the heavens?

Not earth in the heavens.

Now remember, yes, she goes into the wilderness, but John sees her in heaven.

In heaven.

This is why we say it's both.

Yes, and and remember too, Revelation is not meant to be read in a linear pattern.

I think too often we want to literally read it that way.

Well, it's not meant to be.

But it's not meant to be.

It's an apocalyptic literature.

It's meant to.

It's actually very cyclical.

So here's the the idea of what you said we're we're looking at this.

She's in the heavens.

The dragon is seeing he is kicked out of the heavens, which is later in the text.

He's not brought to earth.

She's still in heaven.

Yes, her children are down here.

Yes, this goes back to Jesus calling the woman his his mother, the woman on the cross and looks at John and says behold your son.

And he also tells the people that are down on earth, these women that were weeping for him, weep for your children.

Oh, daughters of Jerusalem.

Because here's what's going to happen.

There is going to be a time of turmoil.

There is a time of good.

Salvation is brought.

The child is risen.

He is seated at the right hand.

His enemies are made the footstool.

The enemy is kicked out of heaven.

But what you'll find later in this passage, woe to the inhabitants of earth.

Or your enemy is upon you.

So we are going to be battling this enemy.

Doesn't that make sense when you read Paul, Ephesians, Paul in Ephesians 6, like our battle, our our battle is not with flesh and blood, but with the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies.

That's what our battle is against.

And it has come to us.

He is an enemy that's vicious and angry.

So much so that the same idea is used by Peter when he says that the devil walks about like a roaring lion seeking humane may Devour, which is the same idea that is used here about devouring a child.

We are now the objects of devour because we are children of God.

But here's the thing, Mary is our mother.

Yes, she is.

Because in this imagery her children have gone out.

Now note in the text with the dragon becomes furious.

The dragon became furious with the woman, verse 17 and went to make war with the rest of her offspring.

That's us on those who keep the commandments of God hold the testimony of Jesus.

And he stood at the sand of the sea.

And we're going to talk about that when we talk about Michael.

Now here's the thing.

Now the offspring are the targets.

She treated her offspring, so it is proper for us to be seen as the products of Mary.

We are the children of God.

Yes, we are the children of our Lord, but we are also children of the Mother.

She is our mother.

She is identified as the Queen of Heaven and we are her children.

We can go to her as a mother, as the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of the King, and that is even shown here.

Now, at this point, you may say, OK, you guys did some gymnastics.

I see some connections.

I get your Song of Solomon.

I see the imagery of Eve and the New Eve.

I even get why Irenaeus and Justin Martyr all refer to her as loosening these bounds that are on us because of these things.

I got you.

I got you, but I'm not.

I'm just not buying into all of it just yet.

You say she's in heaven.

OK, maybe I grant you there's a 2-3 fold application of the woman that it's Israel, the church, and Mary, but she's not stationed there all the way.

Well, let's look at the preceding statement that John saw before the sign.

He also saw something else that is only mentioned in one time in the whole book.

One time, the last words of Chapter 11.

Then God's temple in heaven was open, and the ark of the covenant was seen within the temple.

There were flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of Thunder and earthquake and heavy hail, and a great sign appeared in the heaven, a woman.

Now he sees two things, the sign and an image, 2 separate things.

But in the same scene in the temple, he sees the Ark of the Covenant.

Nowhere else in the Book of Revelation is the Ark mentioned.

Nowhere else.

Nowhere else only.

Here, and it's only mentioned briefly, very rarely in the New Testament.

And it says the ark of his covenant was seen within the temple.

He's already established the temple is Christ all through revelation, and that we are a part of this temple.

We are joined this temple, but amongst us is not just Christ bodily, but an object.

He doesn't mention the menorah, He doesn't mention a veil, He doesn't mention the cherubim on the ark.

He doesn't mention the washings, the water, the brazen, all all all this.

Just one single object.

The Ark the.

Ark of the Covenant.

Now I'm going to get some feedback here and that's fine.

And we're, we're totally fine with doing that.

I'm going to bring on another object to show you and the church fathers and then we're going to discuss this and we're going to wrap this thing up.

The first one comes from Saint Ambrose of Milan.

The prophet David danced before the ark.

Now, what else should we say?

The Ark was but Holy Mary question mark.

The ark bore within the tables of the Testament of Mary bore the heir of the same Testament itself.

Now remember the vision.

He sees the ark, but he calls it the ark of the covenant, that Testament.

That's the same word.

The ark bore within the tables of the testament.

Mary bore the heir of the same testament itself.

The former contained in it the Law, the latter the Gospel, and one had the voice of God, the other His Word.

Don't see the parallels?

Mary within her has the Word, not just the law of God, but the Word, the very bodied living Word.

All right.

The arch indeed was radiant within and without the glitter of gold, but a holy Mary shone without from the splendor of virginity.

Remember the terms that we talked about, folks in Song of Solomon.

Purity.

The one was adorned with earthly gold, the other with heavenly.

Now this is taken from Saint Ambrose's sermon.

I'm going to give you a reference of a book.

It's actually out of print, but you can still find visual copies of it.

I'm going to show you these things, but let's continue the next one, St.

Cyril, Jerusalem.

The ark would be the type of the image of Christ.

Now some would argue, and I want to stop here and conceive this, some people say wait, wait, the ark would depict Christ.

So yeah, we just talked about how within the ark is the living word.

So the ark from itself in essence produce crisis.

Well.

Let me just say this, It's the womb of the heart.

Yes, it's what's inside the Ark.

The ark was just gold.

Yes.

What what made it the holy thing to where even people touched it and got contained within it.

So we're going to talk about what it contained in a minute because you have a lot of good thoughts on this.

Let's continue.

So the image of Christ for if we look back on the way the incarnation of the only begotten we see that it is in the temple of the virgin being the womb, her body as in an arc of the word of God took upon his abode for in him dwelt all the fullness of the God had bodily, as the scripture says, but the testimonies of the ark were with the word of God in the wood of it was imperishable and the pure choices gold was in beautified within and without.

So it's in it the the rod, the staff, the Marin that budded, the the manna, the bread of heaven is in there and the tablets of stone.

So they're all acknowledging that.

We're going to talk about how that's significant in a minute.

But notice every single time they connected to Mary.

They sure did.

Saint Athanasius of Alexandria, be mindful of us Most Holy Virgin who after childbirth this remain Virgin.

You ever wondered if the Church believed in the perpetual virginity?

Guys, You're you're you're in a losing battle, OK?

Yeah, the evidence is too weighty.

You're, you're not going to win that.

And grant us for these small words, great gifts of the riches of they the, the of they great of the graces.

Oh, thou full of grace, Accept them as though they were true and adequate praises in honor as if they were in them any virtues and praise.

We offer them as a hymn for ourselves and for all creatures full of grace.

Lady Queen, Mistress, Mother of God, the Ark of sanctification, Ezekias.

The Ark is without doubt the Virgin Mary of God for the Mother of God.

So obviously Mary.

For if thou art a gem with reason, she is the ark, because thou art the Son.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, the Virgin will necessarily be called heaven, since thou art unfolding flower, that the virgin Mr.

surely be a plan of incorruption and paradise of immortality.

Oh boy, which things Isaiah sing from afar.

Here we go exclaim Later on, Behold, a virgin will conceive, and in her womb shall bring forth the Son.

They shall call his name Emmanuel.

Behold, a virgin.

Who is she?

The most noble of women, the elect from among the virgins.

I swear we just read this in Song of Solomon and in Revelation.

The splendid ornament of our nature, mother of all living things, the glory of our mold, who freed Eve from her shame and Adam from the curse, who cut off the bold insolence of the dragon.

Oh man, he must be reading Revelation 12 here.

And he's connecting every single passage we just went over.

So if you think we're just bouncing around for fun here, we're not alone.

We're not alone, folks.

Church fathers are making the same threaded connections.

We're not creating some oh, you guys are just cherry picking all over the Old Testament and applying it to Revelation 12 in the vision, are we it?

Look, if we're doing this wrong, we're in good company.

Yeah, because the apostles did the same.

I mean this, this is here.

That is what he goes on to say, who cut off the bold insolence of the dragon, she whom the smoke of concupiscence touched not, nor the worm of pleasure harmed.

So he obviously believed that she didn't die like the rest of us in corruption, that she was bodily assumed.

They start with these substances.

Talk about how that's significant to Christ.

All three.

Well, they all three relate to him, right?

The law relates to him because it was considered the the word of God, the written inscribed word of God by the finger of God.

Well, who is the word of God Incarnate?

It's Jesus, the Son of Mary, the Son of God.

He is the Word of God, as John makes known to us in John chapter 1.

He is the Logos, He is the Word.

And so who did Mary hold within her womb?

The Word, the Incarnate Word, in fact.

In fact, He assumes the flesh of humanity from her, One who had not touched sin.

Think about that, folks.

Think about that.

We receive our nature from who?

From the ones who bear us and and remember this Mary doesn't bear nature, she bears a person.

She gives birth to a person, not to nature.

So she gives birth to one man who has two natures, fully God and fully man.

The hypostatic Union.

Yes, so she has within her womb, just like the Ark of the old, the Ark of the Covenant in the in the physical Tabernacle and temple, contained within it the law of the Torah of God.

But that's not all.

It also the ark of the old, the ark of the covenant and physical Tabernacle and temple contain what would be called a form of manna, the manna, The manna that fell on the ground during the time of the wilderness for the people of Israel that they could eat and not starve.

And God would bring forth manna from from heaven so that they could eat.

And so the the physical ark of the covenant contained in the physical Tabernacle and temple, the showbread or what was symbolizes the the manna well, who is the bread from heaven?

That's John's gospel again.

Yeah, John's gospel again makes known to us that he is the bread from heaven.

Bread which came down from heaven.

Whoever eats mine, you got to eat him.

Yeah, I am not the bread that your father's ate and died.

I am the living bread who comes down from heaven that whoever eats of my flesh will live forever.

So here you have already two instances where the old physical ark of the covenant contained the 10 commandments.

The written word inscribed by the finger of God relates to Jesus, the living Incarnate Word of God, the Word of made flesh.

And now you have the Bread of Life.

Who?

What did the physical Tabernacle, the physical ark contain?

Show bread, the bread of the manna.

Jesus is the living bread, living bread, and He is in her.

She is containing within her womb the living bread of Heaven, who all men will eat of and live forever.

And then you have the priest of Aaron, which was in the physical ark of the covenant and the physical Tabernacle in the temple in the old covenant, which symbolized the high priest.

And folks, we cannot underestimate and undervalue what the what the role of the high priest was to the people of God.

He was an intercessor.

He was a mediator.

He was from the line of Aaron.

Well, by the way, Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant.

But there were other mediators through the high priest and the priest of the Tabernacle in the Temple, who committed the sacrifices for the people of Israel so that they can receive atonement for their sin through shed blood of innocent, spotless lambs and bulls and goats and donkey or oxen and all sorts of animals.

Well, who is the high priest?

Who is the real true high Priest?

After the order of Melchizedek, yes.

The one who gives the sacrament of the Eucharist in the forms of bread and wine, which become for us the body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ.

She contains within her womb the real true high priest.

And by the way, folks, if you read John's Gospel and you read chapters 18 and 19 and he's, he's already prepared his readers for understanding Jesus is a high priest because what is he doing?

17 He praised the high priestly prayer that replicates the form of every high priest Before he would offer the sacrifice, he would pray in the exact same form that Jesus prays.

He would pray for himself.

He would pray for his his his disciples or his descendants in the Levitical priesthood, and then he would pray for the entire nation of Israel.

Jesus does the same thing.

He prays for himself as he gets ready to bear the cross.

He prays for his disciples, and he prays for the entire world who will become disciples.

And one.

And make them one, by the way.

And then what we see if we have eyes to see and ears to hear.

And Revelation 18 is a comparison between Caiaphas and Jesus.

And you see them opposing each other, and you see one who is corrupt in every way, and one who is pure in every way.

Because this high priest does not board it over the people, he becomes the sacrificial victim by which all mankind can be saved.

And Mary bears all that.

And Mary has all of that in her womb.

And so no, she's not just a normal casual, everyday woman that had a really cool nine month opportunity and then she went back to being a commoner.

Yeah, she lost her privileges or something, and Jesus came out of her way.

Me.

A break he was.

She was there.

She was given this grace before the Angel even came to her.

This is something that was seen by the Church Fathers as we've read these images of the ark.

That brings us into this point.

The ark had not been seen since the alleged Second Maccabees talks about Jeremiah hiding it in a cave along with the tent.

And so when Jeremiah and the altar, I think was also added and then it was lost.

Now you may not believe Second Maccabees, but you do even if you don't because you believe the words of Second Maccabees and and the other writings of Maccabees is used by the the writer of Hebrews, whether you mean to or not.

So you can like it or not like it, but you believe it when you don't even want to believe it didn't know you believed it.

But if it's reliable enough for the writer of Hebrews to use, I think probably reliable.

But let's just say Jeremiah buried this thing or put it in a cave and it is yet to be found, supposedly.

And all of a sudden, nobody in the New Testament mentions the Ark of the Covenant.

Think about this.

The only one that does is the writer of Hebrews referring to the one back in the Old.

Testament in the Old Testament.

This is a present.

I'm seeing it like I can see the Ark of the Covenant that nobody has seen since Jeremiah and his servants buried it in a cave.

Yeah, imagine Jewish readers reading this in the 1st century with John's apocalypse.

Here he sees the Ark of the Covenant, which did not exist in heaven.

In heaven, Temple.

Yeah, the heavenly.

Temple on Earth.

Which think about it folks, the Second Temple did not contain the Ark of the Covenant and therefore it was always seen.

You got to read other writers who write about Second Temple Judaism and how they viewed the Temple.

It had a lesser, greater, had a lesser glory than the First Temple of Solomon because it did not have the Ark of the Covenant.

It had the absence of the Ark of the Covenant.

Remember that in the Ark of the Covenant, the high priest would go in and he went and this is what the writer of Hebrews tells us.

The high priest would go in and he would say as he sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat, behold the blood of the covenant that's poured out for all all of Israel.

Well, there was no ark in the temple in first in the 1st century.

It was, it was not found.

It was still hidden.

And here we are in Revelation 11/19.

A Jewish reader goes what the ark, It's found, it's in heaven.

But who does he say?

He said I saw a sign of a great woman.

Yes.

And so the church has always seen her as the ark.

John is clearly showing us the only place in the temple, the ark, and then appears in that same vision, a woman.

A woman.

Who is clearly married.

And so she is seen in these connecting visions and signs as the ark that John saw.

Now, why is that important?

If the ark is referring to Jesus, it's unnecessary to see that in the vision because he is seen within the temple as the king seated on his throne, for that matter.

But the ark is an object that's being really focused on by the writer in order to capture something about it.

And then all of a sudden this woman appears.

I don't think they're separated.

The church fathers didn't think they were separated.

They are clearly connected that she was the ark.

This type, this visionary form carrying this all along.

And it is completely showing in this vision, folks.

John believed and saw the bodily assumed Mary.

I've heard people say, Oh yeah, I believe the ark's in heaven and not on earth, even though it was went missing.

It's because God probably took it to heaven.

You believe God assumed a box of gold, but don't believe he could have assumed his own mother.

Which one would be more important to him?

Which one would make more sense with what John said he saw?

He didn't say I saw a golden box with the two cherubim on it.

He said I saw the ark of the covenant.

And then he describes a woman that just so happens to be the very woman we see in the New Testament gospels.

Yeah, let me make a comment about that.

Remember that the Old Covenant ark, I'll refer to it as that which was in the Tabernacle, in the temple.

The blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat, which set above the ark, right?

That box when Jesus comes down from the cross.

We see so much art depicting what Mary brings forth.

The Lamb of God upon her breast after he has died on the cross, the hold the blood of the covenant on the mercy seat on the ark.

What an amazing image to think through Mary is.

She feels the pages of scripture.

Scott Hahn said this and I want to read it.

For Mary feels the pages of Scripture from the beginning of the first book to the end of the last.

She was there in God's plan from the beginning of time, just as does the apostles were and the church and the Savior.

And she will be there at the moment.

Everything is fulfilled still.

And This is why I want to hear, I want to encourage our Protestant brothers and sisters still.

Her motherhood is a discovery waiting to be made.

That's heavy.

We gave you a lot.

We gave you a lot to think about folks, and we want you to continue to think through these things, ask questions, be involved in studying, look at the church fathers.

How did the earliest interpretations of these passages?

How do they view them?

These are important things for you to look into because they are here in Scripture.

And I love how Mary is, yes, she's from the beginning to end, but it's kind of like hidden truths that you finally piece together because she was never the main point.

She was always the pointer.

She's the reflection of the glory of her Son.

So it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

All right, folks, that's all we have time for today.

As always, thanks for tuning into this episode.

Grace and peace to you.

God bless.