Welcome to another episode of Acts.

I'm your host, Steven Boyce.

We're going to be looking at the subject of the myth that the apostles ever lived at all.

Now I can't believe I'm doing an episode like this.

I'm not shocked, I guess in the end, because everybody's a myth these days.

Everybody's fake.

When we're talking about the critical analysis that's going around the skepticism, the hyper skepticism, the reality is this, folks, everybody is a myth in history if they're associated with God, the Old Testament or Jesus, the apostles, and anything to do the New Testament.

Everybody else is not a myth, but anything to do with fundamental faith, believing in the Lord of the Scriptures.

You are believing in myths.

I couldn't believe it.

And I'm going to share the screen for those that are watching on YouTube.

Those listening, I'm going to read the description of the video.

I'm going to put the link of the video in the description so you can watch it on your own time.

It's pretty short.

I'm also going to leave another link in the video where I cover this with fan and with inspiring philosophy.

We went through the majority of the video line by line, phrase by phrase, and pulled out the ridiculous idea that has come from someone who just released a video.

It's this one right here.

The apostles didn't die for Jesus.

They may not have even lived.

And I can't believe that we're having these discussions, but these videos exist.

These videos are out there for people to watch.

People are actually believing something about him.

His name's Durante Lamar.

He's a former pastor.

He's now a skeptic.

It's unbelievable that we're having these conversations, but we are here and we are having them.

And so when we look at the discussion of the apostles and their martyrdoms, he tries to draw in on the fantasy mythological side, really the embellishment of how many of the apostles died and that the New Testament isn't speak into but one maybe to any kind of downplay Stevens martyrdom.

The reality is that's not true.

The apostles deaths can be perceived and seen clearly in the Gospels, the epistles and even in the book of Acts, specifically of James.

No, no, all 12 apostles are not given life and death situations, which would be problematic if it did, because then we should be worried about fantasy, legacy and all these other things.

Because the ones that are reported are reported by people who are actually with individuals, not the whole group.

And in addition to that, many of them were still alive when the New Testament was being written.

So why would their Martim accounts be given at all?

To me, this is a ridiculous assertion that he makes throughout the entire video.

I encourage you to go back and watch that video and then watch also some of the in depth analysis that fan and I went through together just the other day.

Today I'm going to answer it more generally on the basis of the claim.

Were there even apostles at all?

I don't want to focus on that that much.

To me, that's ridiculous, but does the Bible even teach that they died or that there would be martyrdoms?

Those are the main points I want to deal with today.

Now I'm going to bring up slides in order to help us with this.

As always, do your best to follow along if you're listening on the podcast and if it is your first time listening on the podcast, welcome.

We're glad you're here.

Make sure you hit that follow on the notifications for you so that when new episodes release, you can get more info about us and what we're doing.

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Make sure you hit that like button on the video and then go over and hit subscribe so that you get notifications as well soon as new episodes like this one release.

But today we're going to look at specifically AI think an important discussion because we need to catch this stuff early.

It it I think people are getting bored with the old content.

I think that they're doing their best just to make things up more.

Why not?

After all, because if it's radical, you're going to get attention.

If it's radical, you're going to get clicks.

If it's radical, you're going to get people to talk about you like we're doing right now.

But nonetheless, I think even in the middle of click baiting, it is important for us to answer these subjects very briefly, and I want to cover it.

And I'm going to even allow my notes to be used.

If somebody would like a copy of those, feel free to reach out to me.

You can find me on Academia Edu.

You can find me on any of your social media platforms under Steven Boyce.

Hit me up on Messenger or something.

I'll send you APDF or a PowerPoint of this very slide if you need that for future references, I'll be glad to send it to you.

As a point of reference, let's look at criteria.

Saint Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century talked about the need of investigation as it relates to historical documents.

In his day Doctrina Christiana, he mentions 3 criteria in order to use to find historical documentation, authorship, correspondence, jurisdiction.

How do we find those things To begin with?

He gives us three things.

The first one is contemporary support.

See, this former pastor is wanting us to believe that, you know, these things were made-up out of thin air and even goes on and gives multiple stories from the Acts of Peter and the Acts of Paul and some of these other second and 3rd century documents saying we don't have any contemporary support of this.

And then maybe you can say James in the book of Acts, possibly Stephen, but he wasn't one of the 12.

You know, he gets into that, but that's not true.

We do have contemporary support.

So what we're looking for is contemporary support, information from that contemporary support and second hand information within the generation of the lifetime that can be corroborated over a period of time within the lifetime and shortly after.

And then you want to find consistency.

The unbroken chain of custody idea.

And many of you who've watched this show for a long time know I've used this criteria for the Gospels.

We use it and practice it in how we look for authorship in the epistles, etcetera.

This isn't new to you.

We're going to follow that same framework.

Now he mentioned that we don't know how to trace any of the apostles or their deaths, and he very much wanted to take issue with the death and martyrdom of Peter and Paul, of Peter and Paul.

I was a little bit surprised he went that direction of all the people because in John 2118 through 19, which I believe John's Gospel is written after the death and martyrdoms of Peter and Paul, it's very clear the writer knew that Peter had already died and was connecting a statement Jesus had made to Peter while he was still living, realizing that Jesus was speaking in a manner in which Peter would have died.

John 2118 through 19.

Verily, verily, I say to you, when you were younger you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished, but when you grew old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will fasten your belt and take you where you do not wish to go.

He said these being Jesus, He said this to indicate the kind of death by which he, Peter, would glorify God.

After this he said to him, follow me.

Now all scripture citations here are from the NRSV and I edited a few words myself.

But notice that verse 19.

He said this to indicate the kind of death in which she would glorify God.

Now we don't know in this exact verse whether he would be hung upside down or crucified, but that does come later as our former pastor friend has said, yes, that is a second century tradition.

By the way, Later doesn't always mean worse.

And I pointed this out in the video with I did with with Dan, that later does not always mean it's inaccurate.

Later may have very early attestation that it is siding or utilizing or referencing or a very reliable source.

I demonstrated this with P66 and really Codex Vaticanus and P-75.

Some of these early papyri, specifically P-75 are utilizing variants in Luke and John that are very, very close with Vaticanus.

Now if they're 2nd century, 175 to 200 and you have Vaticanus

around 3:50, there's about 100 and 25150.

Depends how you date these.

Some people want to try to make Vatican as earlier, so I'm trying to make it later.

Some make the papyri later.

Let's just say 100 to 150 years just to be safe.

There is a consistent textual tradition and transmission within that line of correspondence from one writing to the next, and they're not back-to-back.

There's gaps in between, but the the material has maintained where it is varianting from other citations of its similar years, or it is unique from other citations in the same years.

Whatever the case may be, you can find traditions in the textual transmissions that are very, very close and almost exact.

So let's not pretend like we can't have something later, like in the 4th century, that doesn't have much earlier attestation in it.

We find that consistent even in how Eusebius uses sources that were found later, or how Climate of Alexandria used sources that we now have better attestation for that we didn't 100 and 150 years ago.

So let's not pretend that just because something is later, it is instantly thrown out.

But Needless to say, even with that on the side, John is indicating to us that Peter would die in a manner where he was taking a place he didn't want to go.

His hands would be stretched out and he would be fastened down.

Now, whether that was a crucifixion, we don't know.

But whatever the case may be, the writer of John the Johanan community and John the Apostle, I believe himself being there, is looking back back on the death of Peter and saying that that teaching of Jesus on the side of the seashore represented the death in which Peter would die and glorify God as if it already happened.

Looking back.

Here is a contemporary companion of Peter who is reminded of what Jesus said to him looking back after his death and asserting Jesus predicted Peter's death exactly how it would go.

So I don't know why our friend here lacked the need or lack the ability to go in and find a citation like this.

Paul also indicates his own death in second Timothy one and 2nd 4 in chapter 180 says do not be ashamed then of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner.

Now, one of the things that the former pastor did is try to make the argument that nowhere do we see these people dying for their faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

That's a later legend.

That's later in, you know, interpolations.

These are later histories that are not even history.

They're just meant to build theology and inspiration.

That's one of the points he made.

But what you're going to notice about Paul's, he knows why he knows why he's going to die.

He knows why he's about to die.

And he's telling you I'm in prisoner and suffering for the gospel, which is the testimony of the death, burial, and resurrection.

So he knows why he's being persecuted.

He knows why he's in prison later.

He knows he's about to die for it.

Verse #6 through 8, verses 6 through 8 of chapter 4.

As for me, I am already being poured out as a libation or as a drink offering that you can find that idea in Exodus 2940 Numbers 15 as well, which is an was one of these sacrifices was upon the sacrifice of this was given and the time of my departure has come.

I fought the good fight.

I finished the race.

I've kept the faith for now on.

There's reserved for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day, and not only to me, but also all those who longed for his appearing.

That sounds like a man that knows about it, knows he's about to die, knows why he's about to die, and knows the condition in which he's about to die for the gospel in prison.

Paul is telling you about his own death.

By the way, this is indicated in other places.

I don't have this in the notes with even James and John.

James's death was predictive and we can see the fulfilment of an acts.

John we don't really know how he died.

We know he's tormented and base of the date we have of Jerome he died right around the year one O 2.

But some say even as an old man he was killed.

We don't know but it seems like Jesus believed he would that he would die a similar death unto his Jesus.

Remember what happened when the sons of Zebedee said we want to be seated at the right left hand of you and your Kingdom.

Jesus said this isn't for me to give.

Then he asked the question, can you be baptized in the baptism by which I will be baptized with?

And it was Speaking of his crucifixion, his death.

James and John surprisingly like, yeah, sure, yeah, we can.

We can be baptized with the death with with which you're baptized with.

And Jesus says, and so shall you be.

You will definitely die a martyr's death is the idea there.

So even Jesus indicated and predicted James and John in their death.

Paul seems to predict his own death and understands he is on death's door.

John seems to predict Peter's death or Jesus's testimony after the resurrection in John 21 and John 20.

So I just don't buy that.

Oh no, no, no.

You know, these, these are later legends, myths, you know, embellishments and things like that.

No, we can list 4 apostles just in the New Testament whose deaths were they predicted or known or recited or given in a manner in which it would indicate the type of death.

So this gentleman is wrong on four of the apostles out of really the 12 or 13 if you want to count Paul, that he has already said are later legends.

How about other contemporary supports?

Do we have anybody else who may have known the apostles who wrote about it?

Sure.

Clement of Rome, who I believe wrote around 96.

Some would say even earlier.

I hold to the 90s.

First, Clement and five says let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes.

Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation.

Notice how underline that to those that aren't watching.

I underlined that phrase in our own generation.

Clement the writer is claiming to be a companion of two apostles who you're about to see.

Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars of the church have been persecuted and put to death.

Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles.

Peter, through unrighteous envy endured not one or two, but numerous laborers, and when he had length suffered martyrdom.

Now he did not state how, only that he did that.

He died after a persecution and after a painful laborious suffering.

It ended in martyrdom.

So it was excruciating, it was painful, it was deep suffering, It was not a quick execution for him.

Says departed to the place of glory due to him owing to envy.

Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance after being 7 times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee and stoned after preaching both in the East and the West.

He gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith.

Yes, yes, they were dying for their faith in the gospel and their their friends are saying it.

They are saying it having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the West.

And he suffered martyrdom under the prefix, who are probably Tigellinus.

And Sabinus is who he's referring to as the prefix there during the time of Nero, probably about the last year or so of Nero's reign, is who he's referring to.

Thus he was removed from the world and went to the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patients.

So Clement believes Peter and Paul are in the beatific vision of our Lord, that they went on into the presence of God, and that they died for their faith.

They were both martyrs in Rome, having given these different accounts.

Now he doesn't give this story of like this really cool death and, you know, things happen, miracles taking place around him.

No, Clement was just kind of like, just take example, two people in our generation who died for their faith in our lifetime, and they died in a manner of suffering for the gospel.

And he mentions Peter and Paul, both martyrs, contemporaries of them both.

In fact, it's very likely Clement of Rome was mentioned by Paul in his letter to the Philippians.

He is a Bishop under the order of Peter.

He is a successor of Peter.

It went Peter, Linus, Anacletus, Clement.

Now we did a whole episode on Linus.

We did a whole episode on Anacletus.

You can go back in the very recent past and find those and and review those.

I just did an episode maybe a few months ago on those two individuals.

Clement is 4th from Peter companion of both mentioning their deaths and why and what manner they died.

Now it isn't again, nothing about beheadings, nothing about being crucified upside down, which is to believe is what we're to believe about Peter being upside down, crucified in the acts of Peter and then legend of Paul's that he was beheaded, which makes sense as a Roman citizen.

How about Ignatius of Antioch?

He was the successor of Peter in Antioch.

He was second after Peter.

He was not immediate, but second, and said to have been ordained by Peter himself also a companion of John the Apostle and his successor Polycarp having corresponded with letters in his letter to the Smyrnaens he writes in Section 3.

For myself, I know the believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection about Jesus.

And when it came to Peter and Paul, Peter and Peter's companions being the apostles, he said to them, here, feel me, see that I am not a bodiless ghost.

He's referring to the idea that Christ was not some phantom, He was physical flesh.

The incarnation is being taught, which is an opposition of the gnostic texts.

In the gnostic forms that are circulating, teaching that Jesus was never physical matter because all physical matter is evil, therefore the gay incarnation did not happen.

He is obviously combating that and he's combating it not just in Jesus ministry body but his resurrected body, that it was also physical form that was touched by Peter and his fellows.

He goes on to say immediately they touched him and through this contact with his flesh and spirit believed for the same reason they, they, the apostles, despised death and in fact proved stronger than death.

What does that mean?

Well, what it means is this Ignatius points to the apostles readiness to suffer, to die as proof of the body of Christ being resurrected.

See our former pastor friend over here saying, well, I mean, there's nothing about them dying, about their resurrection.

They didn't die for that.

And just because they were sincere as an equal truth, sure, you're right, sincerity and a reason of dying.

And he tries to compare them to the 9/11 bombers on the planes and things like that.

It's like, well, first of all, let's not confuse these two things.

The 9/11 hijackers and bombers that went into buildings and things like that.

These individuals were dying for an idea they never had experienced before.

Virgins in the in the afterlife and concepts that they have never physically obtained.

That is not comparable to men who laid their physical hands on the resurrected Son of God.

Not on one single occasion, but many.

He appeared with infallible proofs over and over again throughout a 40 day span.

There wasn't one hallucination, it wasn't one single episode.

It wasn't one single encounter.

It wasn't one single touch.

This was an ongoing thing for 40 days.

And these men are speaking experientially, not wishfully or even with the eye of faith.

That is why Jesus said blessed are those who believe and do not see, as opposed to Thomas who refused to believe unless he felt and saw and touched and experienced reality in front of it.

So this man is wrong in his assertions.

Ignatius is teaching us, as a companion of at least two, maybe 3 of the apostles, that this man in the year 2025 who created a video is far off on his assertions about the apostles to whom our friends are referencing.

It also means that although we cannot know for sure where he got the information about their deaths, his letter assumes that several apostles, Peter among them, were martyred.

That's how he proves stronger than death.

Their endurance was greater than human frailty.

In his letter of the Ephesians, section 12, he says, You are the persons through whom those past who are cut off for the sake of God.

You are fellow partakers with Paul, who is holy, who was martyred, who is truly blessed, and whose footsteps may I be found when I shall come to God.

For he in every letter mentions you in Christ Jesus.

Now notice the martyred here in the Greek, it's in the perfect passive participle marturo.

And in this word where we get the word martyr, martyr.

Oh, if you want to use the exact word mentioned here by Ignatius, it's the perfect passive.

Paul had already died.

He's writing after the fact.

He's looking at his life and his travel to his death.

How do I know that?

The next line at whose footsteps may I be found?

Ickney.

What What does that mean?

Well, the idea here is footprints or footsteps.

It's it's a symbolic idea of being in the path or shadow of someone who's gone before you.

Well, that makes sense, doesn't it?

Because Paul was taken from East to West to be executed.

Where was Ignatius taken?

Oh, from Antioch, from the east taken.

W probably travelled the same roads in some cases that Paul travelled to his death and imprisonment.

He sees himself as patterning the very footprints of Paul to the martyrdom in which he found in Rome.

Now Paul is likely beheaded.

Ignatius was put into the Coliseum, but again, we have contemporary support saying the same things.

They were martyred in Rome.

It's consistent with Second Timothy or Paul was imprisoned there.

It all connects with Clement, with Ignatius.

It's consistent.

Tertullian is writing Scorpius for the word scorpion.

You would.

It's section 15.

Now, why am I bringing up Tertullian?

He's 2nd century, right?

Sure, but he's about to tell you something because in the video our former pastor friend says, well, there's nothing.

There's no Roman documentation.

There's no early documentation.

Hmm, Tertullian says.

Now then, the epistles of the apostles also are well known, and yet that the apostles endured such sufferings we know.

The teaching is clear.

It's only I perceived in running through the Acts, the prisons there, the bonds, the scourges, the big stones, the swords, the onsets by the Jews and the assemblies of the heathen, and the indictments by the tribe by the tribunes, and the hearing of the causes by kings, and the judgement seats and proconsules.

The name of Caesar do not need interpretation.

They don't need an interpreter.

Wait, why?

What is he talking about?

He's mentioning a lot of relics, a lot of scenery.

These things don't need to be interpreted.

There's evidence of them.

He's some of the relics, and I don't want to get much into relics.

Maybe at some point we'll do an entire episode on relics.

But here's something he said.

There are no archaeological evidence.

There's no archaeological evidence of these martyrdoms.

Some of Peter and Paul and others, well, the Church of, of the Catholic Church in Rome does have the relics of Peter and Paul, or at least it appears that way.

And the legends that he's talking about are the reason that these things were discovered with Constantine's mother, in addition to some of the legends of what happened to Peter and where he was buried and etcetera.

They're discovering now these bones, these relics with inscriptions really, really close to where legend said he was buried and moved.

And then we have Paul on the other side with a near right next to the Tiber.

And in in this dedication of Paul, you have this this little section there.

And behind it you can see in these little windows, you can't really see the relics.

A beheaded man from the 1st century claim to be the relics of Paul connected to chains.

Right above that window there, you'll see some of the chains that are claimed to be the relics of which Paul was imprisoned and held.

In these chains there are archaeological discoveries.

Is it definitive?

No.

But we can't just throw them out either.

While there's no archaeological evidence, we have bones found with the inscriptions in the very place that these legends you're downplaying say, were buried.

OK, like that.

That's something to think about.

That's something to keep consider.

We can't just wave the hand at it.

Can't do that.

He's saying there's relics that interpret the entire acts themselves.

He goes on that Peter is struck, that Steven is overwhelmed by stones, that James is slain as is the victim at the altar, that Paul is beheaded.

Has been written in their own blood.

See that He's given examples of people who did die.

Peter is struck.

Now, we don't know exactly what that means, but we read earlier he suffered.

Great pain and suffering before his final martyrdom moment.

So we don't know all the details that Tertullian has in mind, but he does mention beheading of Paul.

And if a heretic wishes his confidence to rest upon a public record, the archives of the empire will speak.

Then is Peter Gert by another when he is made fast to the cross?

And is this He's now saying what that means, that Peter was crucified.

Then does Paul obtain a birth suited to Roman citizenship?

When in Rome he springs to life again, ennobled by martyrdom, whether the declarations or the deaths of the apostles.

In both I learn to suffer.

But notice what he said.

If even the heretics question our statements about the relics and the death of our leaders, he said, go to the public records and the empire has its archives tell the story.

This suggests that Tertullian believe the events, especially the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul and Nero, were matters of public record that could in theory be referenced.

Now think about this.

He is a lawyer.

He is challenging anyone who has an issue with his assertions to not just go to Christian records, but to Roman records.

Now, what a fool if he's making that up.

How easy that is to be refuted, how quickly he could be dismissed.

How dumb would you be to set yourself up for failure at such a great level to say that, oh, go check the public record records, and in finding these public records, you're going to find the deaths of Peter and Paul by the Roman government themselves, only for people to say, sure, I'll take you up on that, and there's nothing there.

You are easily refuted.

You have purposely set yourself up for failure by even mentioning such a thing.

As a lawyer, I think he had checked not only the public records of the church, but the public records of Rome, affirming these deaths of Peter and Paul in the archives that even heretics would not deny because they're easily accessible.

So what do we do?

How do we deal with this?

How do we, how do we look at the death of the apostles?

Now I did an entire series on the death and deaths of individual and all of the apostles themselves.

You can go back to the archives.

That's right when we started on YouTube.

I believe you can find my episodes on that.

I I encourage you to go back and look at many, many more.

The point of today's episode was not necessarily to focus just on all of the individual death stories.

Trust me, there are embellishments.

There are things in them that are not true.

That does not take away from the reality of what is done.

As I gave an illustration on the episode I did with fan on inspiring philosophy, one of the things that I continually fought and dealt with as a child was Davy Crockett because I was a big Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone.

Those two were my favorite heroes in some of the American history.

I learned as a child.

Well, then you find out as you get older, some of the stories about Davy Crockett are not so accurate.

Like his gun Betsy could shoot to the moon, or he grinned down a bear and that he wrestled with bears and killed him with his bare hands and his knife and all this other stuff.

But does that mean that the legends of David Crockett are false, that he wasn't a real man?

No, we have record.

He he was also a representative of the state of Tennessee and Washington, DC.

He is also recorded as dying in the Alamo.

No, it may not be as the movies betray him as this hero who killed the most of Santa Ana's army and fought all the way to the very end and all this other stuff.

There are embellishments about Davy Crockett.

There are things that are said that are above and beyond reality about Davy Crockett.

But Davy Crockett was a real man.

He fought in the real wars against the Native Americans.

He fought in real battles like against Santa Ana and his army in the Alamo.

He was a representative in Washington, DC.

No, his gun probably did not have bullets that reach the moon.

No, he probably did not grin down a bear.

I'm sure he got into a lot of hunting incidences with bears and he may even killed a few in his day, but these are legends that he grinned down different animals and and and made skins and hats out of them.

I mean that's the notorious stories right?

They don't negate his reality as a person, as a hero, as a as a person who lived and died.

So yes, there's embellishments in a lot of these stories about the apostles.

It does not take away from the reality that many of them lived and died.

This is a extremely fringe way to go and I, and I would highly suggest that Durante would review this without the simplicity waving the hand and actually get into the content.

I gladly debate him.

You know, Durante, if you ever watch this video, if you're ever watching the one on inspiring philosophy, I would be glad to have a friendly debate and dialogue.

Whatever you want to do on this subject, and we can work through this together.

I will gladly bring out the error of your way, the inconsistency of your methodology, and the faulty assertions you've placed on these ancient texts and the waving in the hand that has been done throughout your entire 16 minute and 45 second video that that invite is for you.

I it'll be friendly.

I will not be harsh about it.

I go watch any debates I've done.

I've got along with all my opponents save maybe one or two out there that are just impossible along with no matter who you are.

But over the 30-40 debates I've done, feel free to find one.

We'll be glad to go through this and cover this with you for those that are listening.

And this is a little bit crazy.

This is the new norm.

The Mystic ideas, the mysticism, the hyper skepticism, folks, it's at an all time high.

I mean, they are running out of fuel.

And now they're hitting desperate buttons.

This is a desperate button.

This is a desperate hit.

And I, I pity the craziness that is going on in academia right now.

It is, it is unfortunate, is sad.

But folks, that's why we have this program.

That's why we do what we do on fax.

We are, we are doing short 30-40 minute episodes to, to talk about these things that are going on so that you're aware, so that you pick up a book and study so that you look into the content more in depth and know what to say when these things come your way because they're coming and you need to be prepared to answer these questions.

Folks, as always, I am so glad you joined these this episode and, and listened in or watched live.

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It'll go a long, long way as we continue to speak at churches, speak at schools, speak at conferences, sharing the early church realities and the reliability of the Gospels and the reliability of the New and Old Testament.

So make sure you're you're following us in that manner and supporting us if you are able to do that.

And as always, folks, grace and peace to you.

God bless.