[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back everyone to the gentlemen's wrestling podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am your host as always Jesse Collins and joining me once again he is the host of the Lauren Hayes Show.

[SPEAKER_02]: He is a frequent guest on the gentlemen's wrestling podcast and he is of course our Quebec City correspondent.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's Mr.

Warren Hayes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the show Warren.

[SPEAKER_00]: the La Belleville de Québec.

[SPEAKER_02]: See, and that's the first time I think of it, we're actually heard you speak French.

[SPEAKER_02]: So is that your native language, or did you think English is your native language?

[SPEAKER_01]: the first language I spoke as a child was English.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, when I started school here because all the schools around here are all all French, I actually started school with an English accent.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could speak a bit of French, but with a substantial accent and then over the years just being exposed to people in kids and what not around here, I just the English accent disappeared.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you went to, when you went to school, like who went to kindergarten or whatever you guys have up there, like the teacher speaks French the entire time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's essentially what you think of your own classes as you were growing up, but you know, the teacher speaking in, the teacher speaking in French and instead of taking Spanish, well, [SPEAKER_01]: we take English as a second language here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd breeze through those.

[SPEAKER_01]: That like I had a leg up on everyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: When exam time would come around, like throughout my entire academic history from K-12, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I was everyone's friend when exam time would come around and then was time for the English [SPEAKER_01]: for the English tests, brother, I was tutoring everyone, even people who hated me, asked me for some help.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I did it because I was a sap, you see.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I at least had one advantage on everyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like seeing those tests.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had them.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had courses in my high school because I went to a majority of Hispanic high school.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we had courses like Spanish for Spanish speakers.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like basically like we would consider English class like reading and writing texts and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But focus solely on Spanish.

[SPEAKER_02]: You basically had to take it if you were a native Spanish speaker.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they could make sure those those Spanish speakers weren't getting that easy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you were doing up in Canada.

[SPEAKER_01]: it wasn't that developed and there was, you know, the English speakers in Quebec City, back when I was a kid in 1980, oh my god, like we all knew each other, like whatever part of the city you were from, there was like 50 of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's more now, but back then it's like, you know, I was the anomaly, so they hadn't developed like sophisticated, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, native speaking classes for native speaking English speakers, that's a lot of speaking, you know, they hadn't done anything on that level because we were, we were a rarity Jesse, I was, I was a, I was a gem amongst, I was a gem amongst the coal.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm certainly jealous of your bilingualism.

[SPEAKER_02]: I recently set out a goal to become fluent in Spanish by the time I turned 35.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I have- Okay, how's that going?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I haven't really, to be honest, I haven't really started yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was something I literally thought about last week.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking about while I can really take in it seriously.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm going to take classes at the local community college and do a lot of practicing on my own and just like try it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's like a little goal I have for myself for like self-churning movement.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's going to be difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: And by giving myself, you know, three or four years to kind of figure it out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no shortage of people like in Speak Spanish, too, but I'm jealous of anyone like it's speaking to the language and I want to be that person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: I gotta be honest, it's cool because it's never, it's never prevented me from doing anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that I could speak English outside of Quebec, right, kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that I did the same thing with my kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: I gave them, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, this is going to sound super corny, but the gift of bilingualism.

[SPEAKER_01]: But nonetheless, it's, you know, they've had, I know they've had opportunities and things happening for then, and an openness to the world that, otherwise, you know, you don't necessarily have.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was really happy to be able to give that to them as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's tremendous.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, and quite frankly, I'd like to be tri-lingual because I would love to speak Spanish.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to, you know, and Spanish is very close to French on top of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I know it like for me to be a fairly easy language to learn because it has the same Latin roots essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: The romantic languages, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, maybe we should do it together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it should be a common goal, you know, you'd be 35 and I'd be 72.

[SPEAKER_02]: people.

[SPEAKER_02]: 68 years old.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when my coworker speaks five languages, Holy smokes.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and he's very useful.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like owning a pickup truck.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if you own a pickup truck, like everyone asks you to do stuff and help you move.

[SPEAKER_02]: And oh, I have this couch.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got to help me.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what my coworker Tony is like.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, you know, because he speaks, [SPEAKER_02]: He speaks English, Italian, Albanian, Spanish, and I think French is the other one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: But he's definitely he's translated interviews and stuff that I've done with with people and it's like, I'm like, oh, this is so helpful and I should probably be better at doing this myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Big curveball on the albede and the albede in there, though, you know, that's where he's from albede, so he's from albede.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Worcester the city I cover is as a pretty large albede in American population.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, so he's from Albania where and Italian is quietly spoken in parts of Albania.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, and he also learned English, so he has, so he gets the Albanian English and then the Italian and he wants to have the Italian.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's fairly enough easy enough to transition to some of the other romances, which is sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be interested if you ever walked up to him and you said to him one day, you know, to me, kind of like a pickup truck just to see what his response would be.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I've told him that.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's not the first time I've used that reference before.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you did add some context, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just like, you're kind of like my pickup truck.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what are you trying to say?

[SPEAKER_02]: He's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: He teaches me about my soccer team once a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a great co-worker.

[SPEAKER_02]: Shout out Tony Kauji.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's Tony.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, we're here to talk about a man who to my knowledge only speaks one language, although I'm sure he has a summa.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, Hebrew idiom.

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it's a Maxwell Jacob Friedman who, I think, has now emerged Warren as the definitive lightning rod for AEW.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a crown he is bowled over since he first came into the company, but has had to fend off such a established veterans as, um, [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and there always seems to be at least one guy in a w that is lightning rod, but I think now he has that position entirely to himself, um, and I think that, uh, I think the genesis of this episode started when, uh, I did not watch forbidden or live.

[SPEAKER_02]: I watched it about 36 hours after to place, and I, I, I, I, I looked at, I didn't look at like a ton of spoilers, but, [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't hide from them either.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had seen a very common take on social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: And some of the people I follow, and it was specifically talking about the MJF versus Hangman Page match from Forbidden Door.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was said, [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was very, very critical of MJF and the sports entertainment shenanigans and everything that happened in that match.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I was preparing when I sat down and watched the match myself for it to be like a disaster.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like this huge momentum killing match that was gonna hurt MJF and it was gonna hurt hang that page and it was just gonna be this complete wrong match from the crowd and it was gonna be just this disaster.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I watched the match and while there were definitely some definitely some sports entertainment sticks, some of MJF's hallmarks as a performer, as the match was laid out and this kind of grand epic fashion with a couple of run-ins and he'll keep heel spots and all this kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I watched the match in, after watching it, I was like, I thought that was a pretty good match.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even if you don't think it was like a great match and I'm not gonna argue with anyone that was annoyed with the foot on the rope spot or the mark brisk of stuff because I can definitely see that throwing people off of the match.

[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, the big picture of that match, what happened?

[SPEAKER_02]: It got a ton of heat from the audience, MJF ended up having eat a ton of shit at the end.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Hangman page looked like a super over badass.

[SPEAKER_02]: When Hangman finally hits MJF with the money in the bank briefcase or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: and densits and the crowd loses a shit and then hang that pids on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that was I think a good moment for everyone involved, just from a big picture perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whether or not it was up to individual preference that you enjoyed the match or not, I'm not going to argue with people who had a problem with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it made me think about [SPEAKER_02]: how we are talking about this guy and how we are evaluating this guy and I think it's kind of done how to control.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a few reasons for why I think that's the case, but what did you think of that match and kind of what does it make you think of MJF currently?

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have different opinions on the match, which is great because it's going to make things spicy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, okay, so I will agree with you 100% right up until we started to get into the leg on the road stuff, I thought the match was phenomenal.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was no question in my mind that the match was going to be great because the hangman can't have a bad match.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for all the crap that MJF takes, we often seem to forget that MJF is a great big match wrestler.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he always delivers an over delivers in big match spots.

[SPEAKER_01]: No matter what, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: the match and itself, I was so excited was going well and I really did not like the the foot on the rope thing, the Marc Briscoe.

[SPEAKER_01]: interference, which didn't really interfere.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what he was supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what he was doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was doing it all the way by security.

[SPEAKER_01]: And taking a while, I'm like, what are we doing here?

[SPEAKER_01]: Coming back, the Bryce thing, you know, where he's counting to three, like, it was all extremely convoluted.

[SPEAKER_01]: And unlike you, I was kind of mad that hangman used the clipboard to beat M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand [SPEAKER_01]: Why he did it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand the psychology.

[SPEAKER_02]: When it's like Warren, if you don't like something, it's clearly because you're too stupid to understand why I was good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, there you go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the, that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, I am kind of dumb.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's be honest.

[SPEAKER_01]: I watched for wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but the, the, the, [SPEAKER_01]: I, like, this was Hangman's big first paper view defense.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he should have steam roll, not less steam roll.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he, he should have had a clear, definite win without the use of shenanigans.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand why he does it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the idea is ultimately, look, you've been throwing all this junk at me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you know, you're, you're, you know, you're taunting me with the ring, you're low blowing, you're using your, your stupid metal clipboard.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to use it against you because I'm fed up of this shit kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the guy is pushed to his wits in, but he's the hero.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's the top guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's, you know, he's, he's as much of a, of a clean cut baby face as they, you know, white bread, baby face as they have in the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would have been really awesome if instead he just did what he ended up doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hit him with a dead eye, hit him with a buck shot, and that's it we're done.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't think the clipboard was was necessary and he kind of [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, like, I don't think Max needed to be protected, you know what I mean, Max is great, and Max, it kind of goes along these, be idea of all the, you know, the hangman fans who always think that oh, hangman is always in trouble because of his booking and it's like, there's one guy in the company that will always be okay with hangman, but also Max, also him, Jeff, MJF is always going to be fine in this company.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I wasn't a fan of it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I let that know on when I reviewed it over on my channel.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, it hasn't necessarily changed how I feel about max.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was the question, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: How did that make you feel about max, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was the question.

[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't make me change how I feel about Max because if anything, it continued to come pound and I, you know, a vision that I have of him where it's unfortunate that he has to resort to ultra convoluted ways of winning matches or throwing a wrench to sort of divert [SPEAKER_01]: the natural progression of a match to a wonky finish when he really doesn't have to.

[SPEAKER_01]: When matches, and when Max is too talented to have to resort to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now again, I understand why he does it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I understand the throwback elements and we'll probably get into that as the conversation moves forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: The throwback elements that M.J.F represents as a professional wrestling character, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know if you want to use those terms.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, [SPEAKER_01]: He already has like the gimmicks.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's got the ring.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has the clipboard.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has all of these accouture months, always at his disposal.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to overcomplicate it with booking that removes you from everything we've everything we've been trying to say in this match.

[SPEAKER_01]: If that makes sense, does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_02]: We're touching on what I think is a very commonly held frustration that people have with them, Jeff, which is.

[SPEAKER_02]: This guy's got excellent fundamentals, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: He said, really, really good promo.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's got tons of charisma when he is.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's a very good wrestler.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's had some excellent matches, like you said, when he's in a paper view main event or close to a main event, the results are usually really strong from an in-ring perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people, even people who really dislike the match, said, this match was felt like it was on its way to being a great match.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then all the MJF stuff came in and ruined the match.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a lot of frustration where people recognize this talent and then get annoyed that he's just doing all of this extra stuff because it's part of some story telling and everything's gotta be this sweeping up because we have all this extra stuff that's happening in this match as opposed to a more basic pro wrestling style, which a lot of people want out of A, W, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They're used to, and they're sick of the really convoluted [SPEAKER_02]: the match.

[SPEAKER_02]: The match gets hang on page reminded me a lot of the Stone Cold Steve Austin versus Dude Love match from I think it was over the edge 1998.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was one of Austin's first like title defenses once he won the championship after wrestling in a four-team.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: they had the whole thing were like, I think Vince was a special guest referee and like Pat Pat has a special ring announcer and Gerald first go was the special timekeeper and it was like this whole idea where it's like this whole thing to kind of [SPEAKER_02]: stack the deck against against Austin right and so there was this and then Austin over comes the odds and wins and everyone and it was a really really overbooked like obviously it's we're so era wf so it's like you know all these guys running in and interference and all this kind of stuff like that and I actually I do enjoy that match just like I enjoy hangman Patreuses mjf, but I also understand that is kind of like [SPEAKER_02]: A style of wrestling that people really don't want to see in the AW world title.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_02]: is viewed correctly so as the main influence and trigger in that style.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the frustration comes from, this is a guy who's really talented that doesn't need to do all this extra stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yet for whatever reason he does, because that's what he wants to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's someone annoyance that's like, oh Tony's got to reel him in, Tony's got to be the one that tells him not to do all this stuff and it's like, [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Tony likes that stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I look, that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And look, it's something that I think a lot of fans have to start coming around to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's easy to pin the blame on Max because we hear all the rumors that he has all this influence, you know, and that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, just like how Chris Jericho and Cody Rhodes and Sam Punk had all this influence, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Among AW fans.

[SPEAKER_01]: isn't that interesting, and he's got all this influence, and I don't doubt that he does, but ultimately, like there's one guy who decides what goes on television every week or on the paper views, and it's not M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: because he doesn't have creative control.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know people would love to find out in his contract that he has a, you know, a whole-gain style creative control clause.

[SPEAKER_01]: And but he, he doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: The one guy who decides what happens on his shows is Tony Khan and Tony Khan has to start taking a lot of brunt for these decisions that fans are displeased with.

[SPEAKER_02]: because that some fans are pleased to have some fans of business with.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because the fans at the O2 Arena didn't seem displeased by that match.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I, okay, short, I'll grant you that.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Tony, it's mid-South Tony, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So he's going to have some sensibilities towards having MJF act like an old school cheating shit heel, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: He has these sensibilities and I'm sure Tony goes along with, you know, here's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: If MJF comes and pitches an idea, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to try and get what he wants, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to pitch as wide an idea as possible so that even if it gets little down, even if it gets edited down a little bit, it's still something you want to do, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just basic negotiations.

[SPEAKER_01]: You shoot for the ideal for something bigger than what you actually want, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, ultimately, if he's negotiating with Tony Kahn and his ideas, and Tony is essentially, I don't know, I don't know how it's going, taking the masses or just providing a few tweaks ultimately, you know, it's Tony who's giving his OK on it or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the one thing that I think everyone needs to be more cognizant of is that ultimately, M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: is a talent.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a special talent in the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's not, you know, he's not one of the gates of agony, you know, no disrespect.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, he, he has a little more, you know, he has a little more sway, sway than they do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: He's a top guy, so we get, you know, top guy treatment, whatever way, you know, preferential treatment in whichever way that comes across, of course, but it's still one guy who decides what happens and how his matches go out and how his, how his TV turns out, and that's Tony Kant.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't blame him, Jeff, for going in and pitching all of these ideas as big and outlandish or whatever as they are, I don't know, like I'm, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't blame them for doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I blame the boss for not whittling them down to something where it's like, Max, this is where your strengths are at.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what we should be doing instead, kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's a sentiment that I express frequently on a show, which is that Tony deserves ultimately like a bulk of the credit and the bulk of the blame for whatever happens in AW because of his position he's in should be in complete control of what happens on those shows.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think in terms of MJF, like we have to go back to [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, his baby face is ill-fated baby face ran into us in 23 to kind of I think get to like a big part of this discussion, which is [SPEAKER_02]: the bro chat joe stuff with Adam Cole and basically everything between MJF and Adam Cole displacing a segment of AW fans because it was so WWE coded with the wacky backstage segments and the oh we're two guys and we're like really going to be over the top best friends we started as enemies and now we're like best friends and just kind of like [SPEAKER_02]: A brief period of time seems really over to the degree it looked like when they had that match at all into 2023 and Wembley Stadium, it seemed like the logical conclusion to that match was going to be one of them turning on the other, but because they were getting such good reactions, they decided to milk it for a little bit longer, that's at least my impression of when it [SPEAKER_02]: The eventual payoff, which is at, is at, I'm called turning on mjf, is totally [SPEAKER_02]: like destroyed by Adam Cole suffering when end up being a really significant ankle injury.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they basically had to write off the entire ankle when Adam Cole didn't eventually return.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a disaster.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's in hindsight, it's a disaster because it was a storyline that a lot of fans didn't like and thought really negatively represented a lot of things about AW that they didn't care for.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then also never had any payoff and awkwardly positioned MJF who is so clearly a natural heel into a baby face roll and only until really this year, 2025, MJF has kind of gotten back on track.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think in the right kind of roll he's supposed to be in.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that hole in Sron in 2023 has left a bad taste of one of the fans mouth.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was a ton of negative [SPEAKER_02]: sentiment towards MJF until that whole ankle and run happened to 2023.

[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was criticism of him in certain things and it wasn't super surprising that that kind of, you know, he had this baby face running kind of worked out that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that was really, that's really what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think when people don't talk about how frustrated they are and how unhappy they are with MJF's performances, I think a lot of that seems back to that run in the second half of 2023.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of PTSD that still exists in certain amount of fans in that regard, and I think it's kind of spread through past that.

[SPEAKER_01]: The, and it's the same thing with, you know, you were, you were talking about Vince Russo booking, you know, just a few moments ago, and I think maybe for older fans like myself, [SPEAKER_01]: That's also part of the PTSD aspect where it's like we don't want this to come back.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had to suffer through this and we never, ever, ever want to live through this type of era for wrestling ever again.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of gut reactions that come through that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look, the brochacho stuff was I think what it served ultimately is that it it it it it it it established a lot of the narrative that exists today and that is that mjf [SPEAKER_01]: You know, has his ideas and essentially Tony is on board with them and he gets to do whatever he wants because it's MJF because he's a top guy and MJF gets to do whatever he wants and I think that's where that's where the narrative comes from.

[SPEAKER_01]: it broke so harshly from the tone that a W had been had established for itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to say, like, I don't want to say a serious wrestling promotion or a sports based, they had sort of filled with that concept a bit at the start, but didn't quite work out that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, a W was still perceived as the promotion that [SPEAKER_01]: was supposed to be the alternative to WWE, and here we were, like you said, here we were watching bats backstage skits and doing bad jokes at restaurants about Italian food or whatever, and you're like, you know, okay, what is it that I'm watching?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to be watching a W because I can't stand the other place, so I don't want the other place trickling in here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, what's the point?

[SPEAKER_02]: And this was something like the main world title program too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, I don't think anyone would have had half the issue with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it was a nice little midcard act.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, where you've got, and you have to do in the baby face thing and doing his best pal-stick and fishing, Paul, white out of the ocean and what not, I think everyone would, I don't think people would have half the issue that they ended up did having with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it didn't just a nice little midcard out, but that's it, it was the main event thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I feel like we kind of run in the same circles, just like, right, I feel like I my tolerance for nonsense when I say nonsense, like, you know, skits and character work and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel my tolerance for that is higher than a lot of people that we hang out with.

[SPEAKER_01]: As long as as long as it doesn't impact [SPEAKER_01]: matches like the wrestling itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really don't have an issue with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like I'll give you a good example.

[SPEAKER_01]: The the the time was 20 storm stuff when it started.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hated it, Jesse, because she was doing sticks, she was doing stuff with her shoes, she was doing nonsense with Luther, and I'm like, this sucks, because it's Tony Storm, and she's a great pro wrestler, but now the gimmick is getting in the way of her having great wrestling matches.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, she's found that balance between the stick and wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't, I like, I have zero issues with the timeless gimmick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, like, zero because ultimately, I get, we get wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: We get good, high-level wrestling by Tony Sorms, one of the world's best women's wrestlers, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: So that ultimately was my issue with the brochacho stuff and a lot of times what annoys me with Max is that he, the nonsense gets in the way of just delivering a good solid professional wrestling match.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where oftentimes I draw the line.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a difference between nonsense and a heel-doing heel things to win.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like pulling out the diamond ring and stuff like that, I think that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if the vision that Tony has for NJF is to be the shit-heal, you know, modeled off, you know, old Tony, mid-South territory stuff, I get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, and I think it's great, actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because most of the time, most of the time, if he wins a match, because he clocks the baby face across the face with a ring, well, it protects the baby face to a degree, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It also protects the baby face, because the heel had to resort to cheating to beat them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of a winning situation for everyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you mentioned, so you mentioned something, you mentioned PTSD, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: This, oh, if MJF gets back involved in the title program, he's going to be like what he wasn't to us in 23.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we're definitely glimmers of that in the HP page program with the Mark Borsko being set on fire, potentially being set on fire in the whole, stipulation regarding [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's cash on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: The contract execution.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that whole thing has been a mess because then they basically backtrack and said, Well, now you've got to give a week in advance.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, that's just in the whole point of the entire angle from a creative perspective was.

[SPEAKER_02]: that Max could cash in a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: In the fact that he like lost that privilege that then got it back because of Mark Briscoe Angle and it was just like whole thing was just a mess.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is Tony Con's fault.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you would think that's on Max because I don't think Max would want to do it like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just has to do with different ideas and Tony probably changing his mind of what they wanted to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's bad, but small, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We can move on from that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can stupid angle, but whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not gonna stop the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the thing though, like, here's one thing, since you brought it up, people getting the PTSD of him being involved in the hangman angle, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one thing, but I think the PTSD crowd, which I include myself in, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a certain proportion of the crowd, but I think one of the reasons it's gotten really, really loud.

[SPEAKER_01]: recently is because he's feuding with hangman, Jesse, and hangman, I don't know if you know, has a pretty loud fan base.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know if you come across this online, but you gotta be careful of the hangman and what you talk about online in regards to the hangman.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: Look, you probably saw the very deep anxiety that the Hangman fan base lived, felt through the Owen Hart Foundation tournament and then all the anxiety leading into all in, is he going to win, is he going to lose?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a win, he's got to win and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's like, okay, now he's champion and now he's settled with MJF.

[SPEAKER_01]: who's going to come in and ruin everything for the hangman, for the precious hangman.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's, I think this is one of the reasons why these, the, the, the, the, vitriol, I guess that's being hurled at, at NJF is, [SPEAKER_01]: more significant than ever, it's because he has been saddled with the hangman.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, if he was in the mid-card doing, having a feud with Adam Copeland, if he was having a feud with even with Swerve, [SPEAKER_01]: wouldn't have, you wouldn't be having these types of reactions, but it's not just because of the world title situation, it's because a Tangman ad empage and his fans are extremely protective of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think it's, it's definitely like the hangman fans are kind of like a multiplier, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I think it extends far beyond that in the sense of A, W, fans in general are anxious bunch.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they, yes, since the company has been first announced, they have [SPEAKER_02]: always had this deep-lying fear that something is going to happen is going to ruin the company or make the company go on a business or destroy a W and that panic manifests itself in a lot different ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's manifests itself with being concerned about television ratings and attendance, you don't have to send whatever you see.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whenever you see that the line go up, I go down, people react.

[SPEAKER_02]: The media deal, the media deal, the media deal, the next TV deal concern about WWE and WWE, you know, rating talent potentially WWE running shows head-to-head all that kind of stuff manifests itself there, and also really manifests itself in the idea that there are certain powerful individual talents.

[SPEAKER_02]: that have been a part of a W that are going to ruin a W in something and for you know while it was you know it was there's a period where it's Cody Rhodes for while it was Chris Jericho [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, CM Punk definitely, especially towards the end of his tenure in a w was, you know, CM Punk was going to ruin a w and he did try in that case, uh, and now it's mjf and it's, it's going to be somebody that is going to get involved and because they're a big star and because Tony Cators to these guys a lot, they are going to, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: ruin a w with their bad ideas and working with hangman pages obviously not good to that's kind of like I said a multiplier because you already have the smaller segment of the the the the the you know big hangman page fan to work kind of naturally suspicious of hangman not getting a fair shake of things [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so you have that involved, but I think this is an overwhelming sense from the fan base that something's going to happen to AWS going to ruin it's whether that is a from a business perspective or that what it is from a a quality perspective and one of the biggest threats is oh, they're going to build the company around somebody who's act.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do not care for.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and MJ everything is a little more complicated because I think a lot of people will say it makes sense to push MJ off.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's very talented guy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy a lot of what he does, but he's just got this 10, this 15, this 20% of him that needs to be Prevented from manifesting itself on screen and that isn't always the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that it [SPEAKER_01]: like MJF is an easy target because of how much he has embraced being a heal.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he's sort of softened on being constantly in K-Fay by guess, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: For early on in a W like that was the things like he's never out of character, he's always the bad guy all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, now he's a little softer on that, but do you think that that contributes?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because sometimes I feel that it does, just really quickly, I'll leave you have your thoughts, because it is your show after all.

[SPEAKER_01]: But because I think that a lot of fans, they don't want to be worked.

[SPEAKER_01]: like they want to be in on the joke and they don't want to be worked.

[SPEAKER_01]: They want to know that the person that that is a heal is not necessarily nasty all the time or you know or whatever, they want to be able to see like the softer side of that person to human behind it even though they play a bad guy on TV and that does that's on what Max wants to do creatively he wants [SPEAKER_01]: he wants to do something else, he wants to be that throwback, which a lot of fans, significant amount of fans thought was spectacular at first.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I kind of feel like, what do you think?

[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of feel it's part of the reason why he's so easy, he's an easy target.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the fact that he is a heel, like, does make it a little bit easier.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, today's [SPEAKER_02]: And it was, did you see this ronda rousey, I guess, was on a podcast and she said, yes, I'm lying though, she was.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, like saying, she didn't understand my WWE program to her with Alexa Bliss, since it was only, you know, they just went with his decision because Alexa Bliss was their top merch seller and didn't make any sense for her character or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And MJF responded or co-tweeted, you know, something about that and he said something along, except like, you know, this is, of course, this is a wrestling business.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, like basically saying, like, [SPEAKER_02]: They the WWE did the right thing because they were focused on what businesses and that's what this is it's a business and some people don't understand that and like people were like getting mad all course injury upset that like oh mjf course he thinks that like you know what a loser of course is the weeps got away and it's like [SPEAKER_02]: He's clearly being a heal.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's an M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_02]: Twitter account, okay?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not getting the deep inside thoughts of Max, you know, the person.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is Max, the character you're getting, but people are susceptible to that, I guess because he's clearly a villain on TV and people, you know, he's got that real heat.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's got that real heat one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think I think that's part of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't want to say that he brings it on himself.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, really not.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not what I'm trying to say.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I think that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the, look, you know, we, you hear it sometimes and it's kind of a cliche, but it's also true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the old works, the new work.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, where ultimately he's going around being a heal all the time, he's just being a bad guy all the time and people just can't seem to separate fact from fiction like there's there's no way you know they you know their reactions to these individuals are really you know emotionally driven.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, that's more like what that fear of A, W being ruined in some perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is a strong emotional reaction people are having to something that they care deeply about, which is A, W.

Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when it happens, you get like these kind of like, I don't know, say, you logical reactions, because this is actually a lot of logic that goes into them, but these things that it's like, can we take a step back?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is a fake television show.

[SPEAKER_02]: And these are characters.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like when M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cut, you know, when he cuts his edgy promos, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like he won he cut that one promo, the one promo he cut a couple of years ago when the one about the car crash and the with his passenger being a girl was giving him a full ratio and then he switched places with her, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and people actually reached out to [SPEAKER_01]: actually reached out to, uh, to police stations to find out if it was real.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, people, like, it's a work of fiction.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you're watching Lawn order, you were like, oh my God, this is a crime I'm seeing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me, oh, please.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And isn't that fascinating?

[SPEAKER_01]: That wrestling is still able to do that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a lot of stupid people that want to wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hey, there wasn't, there wasn't many brilliant people back in 1979 either.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's my point, like it's still fascinating that despite the fact that the business has been exposed for decades at this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not recent.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like three years ago that we figured out that wrestling is a work, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Vince McMahon went on TV and told us that it was a work.

[SPEAKER_01]: The business has been properly exposed for decades.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, and yet, the line still managed to be blurred.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I personally would give credit to Max in this situation, because he's clearly doing a great job at blurring that line, at making people believe that he's a shit-heal, that he's a bad person, that you need to boo this, man, [SPEAKER_01]: They're calling police stations to make sure whether or not this story was real or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kudos to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the counter of that is that, like you said, there's a bunch of stupid people right now who can't make the difference and don't understand that he's portraying, he's doing something creative, creatively, doing something different, and they can't figure it out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that amplifies, we were talking about multipliers, we were talking about the Hangman multiplier, [SPEAKER_01]: MJF doing great, he'll work overall, multiplier.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's adding to the fire as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look, how many times before MJF became mainstream, okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: Before a W.

[SPEAKER_01]: in the years, how many people have lamented, you know, all, you know, no one does, you know, K-Fabes dead, what a shame, you know, heal wrestlers go on Twitter and they're thanking fans, you know, and, you know, the Russev law and a marriage and all that stuff and people, they're breaking K-Fabes, if only people would do K-Fab again, and then you have a guy who doesn't [SPEAKER_01]: It even goes to question, like, what do people actually want out of their pro wrestlers?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do they want?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, ultimately, it's just they want to know.

[SPEAKER_01]: They want, they want to know because they can't imagine it themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: They want to know that this person, [SPEAKER_01]: is playing a character on TV and is not like this all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Max.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, that's that's a point that Joe Lams has raised a lot, which is like somewhere a lot of restaurants because they don't seem to want like actually unlikable heels.

[SPEAKER_02]: They want like over the top cartoon heels that are winking to the camera.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: How [SPEAKER_01]: How is Max not being cartoonish?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's too cartoonish.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even when he's trying to be edgy, you're like, brother, you're saying you're using lines that would exist only in 1996.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, even the stuff that he does has this, has this tinge of unseriousness about it because it's so because it didn't age well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I chuckle every time where people say, oh, you shouldn't have said that that didn't age well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, of course, of course, because Max doesn't care because he's supposed to be an edge lord and be out of touch on that level.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the whole point.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I want to go back to like his run as champion and it does 23 in the baby face angle and all that kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of people will look back as like, especially the back half of 2023 as like the Nadear of A.W.

[SPEAKER_02]: over the course of its history in terms of quality, from a quality perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was, there was a lot of issues and it created this whole kind of like counter-revolution that the company kind of awkwardly tried to present with like restore the feeling and like, yeah, we're going to get back to the way things were.

[SPEAKER_02]: They had it almost marketed like that because there had been some reputation damage.

[SPEAKER_02]: They had been done to the company that I think the company has emerged out of into that's in 25.

[SPEAKER_02]: although a few more MJF made events might send a stack styling downwards which is what people are worried about.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of people, what is one of the defining things to test the 23 in that Nadia?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, MJF was champion and he was doing the biggest thing and there was a stupid devil angle with Adam Cole that we never got any payoff for was Adam Cole got hurt and it was just very bad.

[SPEAKER_02]: And everyone in MJF's title reign is kind of like the definitive, [SPEAKER_02]: moment of the bottom of a.

W's quality over the course of existence.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, if we actually, if we go back in 2323, there are a lot of other factors that hurt the company, besides Max's baby face run, which I'm not going to defend it and not go well.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was obviously the same day as the all, the all, his all in match with, [SPEAKER_02]: mjf you are here with Adam Cole you have the the similar with joe scene are you have the CM Pomp Jack Perry incident and CM Pomp get fired from the company in the kind of the suspensions to young bucks and Kenny Omega and that actually started I was over here before with all that all out but [SPEAKER_02]: You basically have that whole CM Punk firing, that whole thing unfolding at the same time as this MJF babyface title run.

[SPEAKER_02]: We said, there's key injuries to some talent, there's some other key talents.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was just, it was a really hard time for AEW for a variety of reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was very exhausting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not making excuses for Max's performance over that time because it wasn't the quality you need to be at.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think when we look back at it, I'm like, oh, I remember when MJF was championed, those were terrible times.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they were, but it wasn't solely because MJF was championed.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of negative things that were going on for AEW at that time period.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think a lot more looking back on it in hindsight, I think it's easy to just kind of put a lot of that blame or any business downturn on MJF and ignore some of the other factors that were going on at that time period.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that hurts his reputation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, I think he will get a lot of blame for that period.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, man, it's a tricky one, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, and I say this as someone who really, I really like MJF and I just do, I like him a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I have difficulty not disassociating him [SPEAKER_01]: the loss of viewership that happened in that time, with the loss of live attendance dropping, not the loss of live attendance, but live attendance dropping in that period.

[SPEAKER_01]: How much was it because [SPEAKER_01]: CM Punk just wasn't around anymore and he wasn't showing up, you know, I think there's data that shows that when CM Punk did started making his returns, you know, with collision and showing back at shows, showing back up at shows wasn't necessarily moving the needle either, like wasn't the the the the the the the big saving grace either.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look, it's unfortunate [SPEAKER_01]: When you look back at the, you know, at any period in history, when a promotion is doing well or not, one of the things that you're going to point to is who was champion and whether it's good or not, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why Kevin Nash is in the position he is as, you know, being a guy who completely, you know, who never was a draw, who was a complete failure as a world champion when he was in WWE and in WCW as well, [SPEAKER_01]: champion during some of the worst errors of both promotions, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I have trouble disassociating.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, you're going to go back and look at M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: in this period.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, well, he was jammed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Despite everything that was going on back, you know, in the back, which was huge don't get me wrong, you know, they decided to go with [SPEAKER_01]: with this angle that clearly didn't turn the tides either.

[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't make things more compelling.

[SPEAKER_01]: It just ended up being what it was.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, the thing that that I will defend [SPEAKER_01]: It's this essentially the same thing as as what we were talking about earlier is that all of these ideas that came through were all stamped and approved and [SPEAKER_01]: You know, ultimately we're okay by the people that he was working with as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was all okay with Adam Cole as well and whatever opponents, you know, whatever little angles they had along the way, everyone sort of meshed around this and thought it was okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately Tony Khan decided that this was okay as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like while my company is in turmoil with my the with the biggest drawing [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we're going to run with.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a hell of a decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know, and was it the sole reason why that period was bad for a W-no, but it was a contributing factor because it didn't make things, it took us two years to get out of this situation, because I agree with you saying that in 2025, a W is sort of found its footing again.

[SPEAKER_01]: It took two years to get out of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think the company would be better off with MJF wasn't in it right now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's an interesting question because.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would say no, but I will say that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could like like he is not necessary for the company to be interesting or strong.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could replace his TV time and his push with another wrestler and that person would probably be pretty good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's play the game.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like how a fletcher.

[SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kyle Fletcher doesn't have that energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same kind of, and again, I love Kyle Fletcher and I think he's tremendous and we're on the cusp of something truly great with that kid, but it's, he's not the same type of energy, he's not the same type of worker.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying he has to be like, exactly like MJF.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying that you have enough people on your roster too, I think where we're losing MJF would not be like a critical blow to the company.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so if that's the case do some of the negative study for us at the table, like this fan anxiety, like these bad instincts, like this concern that he doesn't quite understand what A, W, should be in a lot of fan's eyes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that worth the value that he does bring to the table?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people would say, oh, I wish you went to WWE.

[SPEAKER_02]: The company would, I would enjoy the company more if, if he did not.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I wouldn't, I wouldn't be one of those people, but I think there's a lot of people that would say that.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, I'm tired of this guy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you were to, if you were to pull, you know, hard core AW fans, let's say.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's give them like five people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say it's like, I'll just throw this.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's Hangman, it's MJF, it's Swerve, it's Will Osprey, and it's Kenny Omega.

[SPEAKER_02]: You say, okay, I'm just saying like, I'm thinking of like real top talents in A, W.

Like, okay, which A, W has to let one of these guys go, which one would you want to see like go?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a fast fast majority of them would choose MJF.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and that perspective I would agree with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like, you know, like, I know that's like a hypothetical, I guess my point is is that if you look at like the most the top guys in the WWE, he he he he he's not seen as as essential by I think a lot of fans and I think the reason for that is because he is much more of a mixed bag than I got like Swerve or guy like hangman would be.

[SPEAKER_02]: And his ceiling as a performer might be higher than any of those guys, and his his ceiling as a wrestling star could be higher than any of those guys, but there's just these issues that I think a lot of fans have with his performance and have concerns of over him over the long term that have will lead people to think like, you know, if this company doesn't really need him, it might be better off without him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the interesting thing that you pointed out in your five choices, right, that the majority of them are baby faces, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you do need these top foils, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You do need top heels in this company to make this, to make the baby faces interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's inevitable.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where that's inherently where Max's value is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And on top of that, like you said, I think his ceiling is higher than, I think his ceiling is higher than Swerve.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, these are all people I really like.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are all wrestlers I read.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we're talking about like the most talented wrestlers in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and I think his ceiling is higher than Swerve.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kenny is a legend, he's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: We all love Kenny Omega.

[SPEAKER_01]: But brother this ain't this ain't 2017 Kenny Omega anymore if you know he's banged up and I don't know if he can reach the heights that he can anymore look he spent the last he spent the last the the better part of of spring and summer in tag teams and multi man matches right because he's probably not not you know not in in that kind of shape anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's dead now, according to, that beat down the cows, apparently he's dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, according to Carl Fletcher, he's dead and Max is still in his 20s.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, swirf.

[SPEAKER_01]: is you know he's advancing into the 30s mid 30s if I'm not mistaken and doesn't he have a target to want to retire within five years or something?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh well every single wrestler in the 30s says that they're going to oh yeah definitely don't want to be doing this when I'm for you, but you know he's been every single wrestler says that you want to have this though.

[SPEAKER_02]: these guys turn 40 and end up making money that they ever have in their entire lives and making true.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why would you, why would you consider getting rid of a young talent that is nothing but that is nothing but talent, a great in ring performer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that has still, it's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's still a fountain of potential still.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though we feel like we've seen everything with MJF, he still has, I feel so much to give.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why would you want to get rid of him?

[SPEAKER_01]: Why would you dump him out of your company?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you feel like, because you feel like he's a liability because his promos are too long, the match structure is suck and whatnot.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, let's flip this question, let's flip this around then.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Tony Khan, and I'm cognizant of these things, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking towards the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see MJF as the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hear the fan response.

[SPEAKER_01]: What can I do as a promoter to streamline what Max should be doing so that we're not losing the plot here so that Max doesn't go off on his, [SPEAKER_01]: grandest craziest theories, not theories, a fable, stories, epics.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I can keep them streamlined so that when he does come out, it's effective, it's good to great people are excited to see him.

[SPEAKER_01]: This should be on the promotion.

[SPEAKER_01]: This should be on Tony Khan, once again.

[SPEAKER_01]: to have a plan for his talent, especially a young talent on which he himself has said that this company can hinge on outside of the four pillar stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: is absolutely a guy that he sees in the plans of the future for the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: can still work for this company for the next 25 years if you want to, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I want to say, I guess we're operating this conversation under these assumptions that M.J.F's instincts are like, like, like, M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_02]: And while I don't enjoy it, I'm not sure it's just like this awful, awful thing that you need to correct otherwise, like he's never gonna make it or like the company will never succeed as much.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree, because look, you even mentioned it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The angle in the O2, you've got 19,000 people there at for Bindor and they're going crazy, the angle worked.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm at home, you know, I got my arms crossed over my chest and I'm being a big old 50-year-old comedian, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who am I?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe there's 12,000 people you lost 18 years from earlier in this podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, time is wibbly wobbly.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want from me?

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's like, and me, 1,200 people on Twitter got upset about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I got on my podcast and screamed about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Joe and Rich got on their, their instant reaction and screamed about it, but ultimately, you know, the boss, MJF, they're going to look at this and they're going to say, well, you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: This worked down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe the idea here, maybe the frustration ultimately might exist with Macs in a such that, you know, on his end, it's like, why are these?

[SPEAKER_01]: constantly online people always shitting on me when I get into the buildings and I get great reactions, things are going well.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Max has been shown to be a draw, ratings wise, you know, multiple times throughout his tenure, sure, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he's a little strategic with the quarter hours in which he, you know, he, he partakes in.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a whole other [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's, are there really signs from a business perspective that MJF is a detriment?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think he has the potential to be, because I think he was part of the decline in business in 2023.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think him being at the top is...

Can we just blame Adam Cole?

[SPEAKER_01]: But we can also want, oh, look, I mean, you're joking.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you're joking.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but far, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, serious.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's also like there's, it takes two to tango in every one of these situations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just throwing this out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who's to say that the, the, the, the, the, the finish to the forbidden door match, who's to say what's in hangman's idea?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it was.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying what if it was hangman's idea?

[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone's like, okay, and the boss says, yeah, we're gonna do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it odd to concede or to concede?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it odd to concede that MJF just might be a guy who does what his boss wants him to do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That ultimately might just be a guy where he's like, you know, they're coming up with the idea and hangman has this idea with Mark Briscoe and the, you know, and what not and Tony goes love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And MJF is like, oh, all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you guys are into it, we're going to do it kind of thing, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Would it be that how is that difficult to why would it be that difficult to to assume is it because that in the perception the public perception these roles cannot be reversed hang man the pure hang man that you know everyone's [SPEAKER_01]: champion, you know, he posts about the weeds and his yard, he's such a anathable, lovable guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: He cannot have that ideas.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's NJF because he's the crooked, he portrays an arrogant, very arrogant character on television and therefore he must be at least a little arrogant in real life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now again, I'm not saying that these were, you know, that this is the thing [SPEAKER_01]: with MJF is never alone in these situations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of the times the people that he's wrestling with, you know, that he's performing with, they have he goes to.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I can't, I'm not saying it's simple, but I always, I do think that it's unfair, that he gets unloaded so much on all of this, [SPEAKER_01]: for all of the the the bad ideas that that that come up sure okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: there is a there's a trend line there's that you know you like you know if you do a little investigating you can say well all the bad ideas that people really hate somehow they always involve mjf so you can make a correlation there you can say oh well you know there's there's there's there's there's there's there's at least one consistent element we can point to here but I also think it's unfair that he always gets unloaded [SPEAKER_01]: on this and never, ever, ever any blame, any responsibility at the very least, maybe not blame, but responsibility is ever levied on to the other performer or even worse yet Tony Khan, the boss was putting all this on TV.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, being a very good promo guy, being a guy that from the very beginning was like cutting long and ring promos for the most part.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and playing a, being very good at playing a character, a very, you know, distinct wrestling character.

[SPEAKER_02]: because that's so similar to what WWE would utilize and it's roster.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's always been unflaught and really compared to the Miz.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think they're completely different performers and almost every way.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's kind of an easy comp to make if you wanted to do some MJF bashing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you think that kind of works against them in a lot of ways [SPEAKER_02]: Like you look at, okay, let's look at Moxley and let's look at Hangman and let's look at Swerve and let's look at, you know, especially guys like like Danielson and Paul when they were in a W and how different they were in their WWE characters in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: like MJF because he is his skill set feels more in line with what you would see on WWE television.

[SPEAKER_02]: That works against just kind of naturally works against him and has mixed some fans kind of feel acrimonious towards him because it's like oh he's kind of like a WWE character in a w.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that's really necessarily fair, but I understand why fans feel that way because he is getting in the ring and cutting a 10 minute heel promo and that is something that you wouldn't see a lot of people in AEW do, but you would do you see it a lot in WWE.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he does, you know, he's definitely doing some of these, you know, convoluted storyline stipulations, which is something you would see.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily in this current era, WWE, but certainly in the era's past.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just think part of his skills are like kind of a natural fit for what people expect from WWE and in some ways that works against him with the AW audience.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you, well, yes, okay, to answer your question, yes, I agree.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you were to ask a bunch of WWE fans, oh, you guys can get one roster from AW who do you want.

[SPEAKER_02]: They would say I'm Jeff.

[SPEAKER_01]: they probably see him as a superstar, which is rightfully so, but they probably see it for different reasons than you and I see him as a superstar, but nonetheless.

[SPEAKER_01]: To answer your question, yeah, I mean, he himself like has often quoted his influences and how he grew up watching [SPEAKER_01]: WWE, like in it's, you know, and it's most WWE vision, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So he, these are all his influences.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, he throws back to all the stuff that he's seen.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wants to do a marches to everything that he's, that, that, that he grew up doing, watching, I should say, that's what, that's his composition, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, he did a song [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly the thing, you would assume that this would help, what's the word I'm looking for?

[SPEAKER_01]: can be over as a heal, because people would maybe understand what he's doing, seeing what he's doing, what you're doing here has no place.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not unlike the, you know, the inner circle.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, the Jericho Appreciation Society, excuse me, which was, you know, they were sports entertainers and all of that stuff, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: where they were making fun of WWE stuff and whatnot, I kind of think that at the very least, you'd think that people would be able to see to see through that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then again, he gets into the ring and cuts 10 minute promos.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he's taking time away to get this act across, [SPEAKER_01]: is then cutting time off of TV for other wrestlers that maybe these people are truly turning into.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to maybe see more of Kenny Omega.

[SPEAKER_01]: These days, you want to see more of the hangman, maybe you want to see more brodido, yet I'm so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to see, you're by trying to get this act over, he's taking time away from other acts.

[SPEAKER_01]: in the company, but then you can flip this round and say, well, if his 10-minute segment is drawing, [SPEAKER_01]: then why when we continue, I've never heard an instance, Jesse and I couldn't be wrong, but I've never heard an instance of M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: being compared to ratings death.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never heard that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I feel like at the very least he's consistent and at best he pops quarter hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I mean, my days of analyzing quarter hours are behind me, but yeah, I mean, he's not anti-dry in the sense that it's more of the broader message of what is pushing MJF say about AEW.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in some way, in a lot of ways, it's saying we want AEW's going to be kind of like WWE and a lot of people don't like that for understandable reasons.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned earlier about like, you know, the potential of MJF and then he still has a lot of [SPEAKER_02]: And I think because he has, you know, been so good and has achieved so much and early age of his career, I do think that, you know, if we talk about like his, his, his magic and hangman at forbidden door, say, really didn't like that match because there was just this extra stuff and that they even feel like was necessary.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not surprising.

[SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't be surprising at all if MJF kind of grows out of that matures and gets better.

[SPEAKER_02]: He would, far, he would certainly not be the first wrestler to kind of grow out of some bad habits in the year he had in his 20s and achieve more in his 30s.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's still very much a work in progress.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's so good and so polished, really since day one in AEW when he's 24 years old, that it's kind of hard to put in perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, this is a guy that still has a lot more of a ceiling to go upwards.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like long-term thinking about M.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: If it's a prospect which we don't really think about anymore because of how heavily he's been pushed over last few years.

[SPEAKER_00]: How established it is, yeah?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that there's still more to have, more to come.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's something that...

See, I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes I think about it where it's like, well, maybe he's going to grow out of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, right now, like he, like, you know, immense success and he's emulating all of his, his heroes, you know, he's doing the Roddy Piper stick.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's doing the Rick Flair stick, you know, he's, he's emulating all the guys that he's idolized.

[SPEAKER_01]: And at some point, I think it just comes around naturally where, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as someone, as a wrestler, but, you know, as someone who, who has creative endeavors, I think they're going to, I think they want to find their own voice at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's going to be the case with, with Max.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Max is too smart to not realize that at some point he's just going to have to try something else, [SPEAKER_01]: just be redundant and we'll have nothing new to offer and look, I think that he has [SPEAKER_01]: When I say he has this untapped potential, you know, when he cuts his, when when he cuts his very angry promos when he becomes really unhinged and there's no, you know, there's no smirk and there's no, you know, he's not trying to come up with cute nicknames when he's talking to the to the other guy or you're dressing him.

[SPEAKER_01]: when he's just like unhinged in angry, he is at his best in these circumstances.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's just staring straight down the barrel with the camera and I believe every word he says.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's because he's really, really good at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think at some point, you know, like any, like any character in a work of fiction, a character has to evolve.

[SPEAKER_01]: It has to change, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, hang men now, he's not, [SPEAKER_01]: He's not anxious, he's not worried about everything, he's not worried about who he is or what he represents for the fans and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, now he's standing tall, he's confident, his back is straight, and he's not taking any guff, and it's not taking any guff from anyone, not even MJF.

[SPEAKER_01]: But MJF is still the same guy that started back in 2019 in A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's still the same guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's, there's going to be a natural progression.

[SPEAKER_01]: If not for the sake of storytelling and the promotion, for the sake of M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: as a performer, as someone who does this for a creatively for a living, I think eventually he is going to grow out of the need to pay tribute to all of his heroes and really assume something that, [SPEAKER_01]: that will resonate with him that will finally identify mjf as, well, this is, this is the penultimate mjf form kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think a lot about him like long term as a, um, [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what does this long-term career look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought about this really since the beginning of when he was first, you know, in a W, and it was very clear he was going to be a long-term main event player in his company.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where it's like, you know, because he started, you know, really as like, Cody's understudy and then doing the whole Cody angle.

[SPEAKER_02]: He, um, [SPEAKER_02]: To me was like, this guy, he's starting so young and he's coming in as such a polished character.

[SPEAKER_02]: in a way you really really don't see guys that age be so ready to be a television character right and american wrestling just doesn't happen um...

even guys who are really good right away is in ram workers take a long time developed a character he right away was like that and it's like this is going to be fascinating to see this guy have a 25-year career because [SPEAKER_02]: He's already like this kind of, in some ways that already that close like this peak version of a heel.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've always think that he's gonna have to eventually turn baby face.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he could be a really good baby face because he's so charismatic.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's gonna be odd.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's it's I think his his first baby face run kind of reflected the sense of like yeah, he's not really ready to be a baby face because it's such a natural heal.

[SPEAKER_02]: But how long can he be like the MJF character in eight I'd be before he grows stale before he gets needs a change.

[SPEAKER_02]: I in some ways as bad as the baby face run had was and in kind of the follow from that and the whole atom [SPEAKER_02]: It did give him a chance to basically, like, relaunch himself as this evil heal again, which I think he's been successful as.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I just, I didn't wonder about him long term like, what is, like, what is MJF gonna be in five years if he's still in AEW and like, is he gonna grow, yeah, he's gonna probably grow stale because most wrestlers grow stale after 10 years in this same company.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's what happens especially because he is so young and he was so young when he came in, he was already sort of like kind of developed as a wrestler.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is, what do you think his long term [SPEAKER_02]: Like how a look is going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, look, you know, he, I, I, I legitimately believe that he loves a W, I really do, I think he, I, I think he, I think he, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like the tattoo, you know, it's not a work.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like it's something that he really believes in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think if it was his choice, he'd probably stay there for years.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like I said, he's a smart guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that eventually, you know, it's always a good idea to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dip your toes in the water elsewhere and see how you can fare there and sometimes you can return and and and achieve things again back in your home promotion or where you started or whatever that you didn't think we're possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: The, like, I think it's inevitable at some point that he's going to go test the waters, and especially if, especially, like S L swears when I'm trying to say, especially if, especially if fans [SPEAKER_01]: continue to have these very emotional gut first reactions to whatever he does and never let the never let the the true creative kind of shine through or [SPEAKER_01]: You know, walk the path with them to see, okay, well, MJFs in this program again, let's see what's going to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, before that, before that occurs, um, I do think he's going to have a baby face turn.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think eventually he will.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think right now he's, um, [SPEAKER_01]: I think right now he's in a spot where he's still in asshole, he still wants to be an asshole and he still needs to be an asshole, especially when you have, you know, a main event, a champion like Hangman who is, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: white meat pure a good guy, you know, he's going to have to be the snake still for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually, I think that eventually when he figures out how to overcome hangman clean, I think that might be that might be a catalyst for, you know, I'm not saying an instant turn because you just defeated hangman page, but the catalyst to [SPEAKER_01]: change to something different that will eventually lead to a proper baby face run for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: If any of what I said just makes sense, made sense, I kind of feel I was a little scattered there on that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay Warren you've been talking because you people don't know it's Warren you came right from for live stream to the show right right but still it's not an excuse the people are listening are joining the gentleman's wrestling podcast for insightful things not just old man blabbering stuff but you know it's like ultimately [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, I think he has a spot in a W for as long as he wants.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think eventually he is going to go test water elsewhere, and I think a baby cheats, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: What's your main going at W-W, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I think he is going to, he's going to go give it a try at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, well, you know how fast the business moves who is to say what's going to happen in five years, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And in four years, whenever his contracts come in up, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you never know what's going to happen and but I think there is in a W I think there is a baby face turn that that is going to happen again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's probably going to be a lot more it's probably going to be a lot more focused.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be surprised if people ended up being really surprised at how good he is at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I thought he was pretty good at first when he did the baby fair sternum was a little surprised at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Without the difference here being, not going into it in a reluctant manner, embracing the good side of himself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of interesting things that can come out of there as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have, we'll definitely have conversations as to whether what's successful or not when it occurs.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's part of the plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, ultimately, that's something that he wants to do and that he will do.

[SPEAKER_01]: But right now, I think this company needs an asshole.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this company needs a top heel, a typical top heel.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: fans have complicated relationships with their heel, with their top heels.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look, look with the John Moxley, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: John Moxley's another good example.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, look, um, the, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh uh, uh uh, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a very popular opinion that the deathwriters' stuff at first wasn't very good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like focus, it was a little scattered, didn't know exactly what story they were trying to tell.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then earlier this year, like in February, March, when they stopped trying to make the deathwriters like this group that is going to tear the soul out of a W or whatever it was, I think when they flipped them to just being [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a unit of ass kickers of really nasty, bad intended ass kickers.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they became great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think John Moxley then became, became much more focused.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it all became much better.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was a tremendous foil to hang men leading into the main event.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why AWS fans have such contentious relationships with their, with their heels to the point that they start rejecting them as opposed to embracing the heel work.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had the answer for you, Jesse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have the answer to that?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, each person's circumstances are different.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the, I think a lot of the issues with mock slate and the death writers was, [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people had resentment for her the the the match structure being no bunch of guys interfere in the match like the the most boring old hat kind of style.

[SPEAKER_02]: Looking out, so think just the whole few of Copelandas, as the top baby face in the company, or at least the blue face, it's challenging for the world title during a cycle, didn't help matters, just because it didn't feel like the company.

[SPEAKER_02]: The company had so much promising young talent that needs to be featured.

[SPEAKER_02]: Instead, we were getting moxley and established talent.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of already hit a ceiling, a bond, and then Copeland who's this old veteran that has, you know, as on his last legs and a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: precedent for the death rioters.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've been pretty consistent, saying, like the death rioters got what they needed to beat, which should say, eventually they were not actually was a good final boss for a hangman to slay into in the world title.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's basically my take on death rioters, but it's been interesting that it carries over to, I think like, [SPEAKER_02]: Fans have a complicate relationships with you know, Chris Jericho who's obviously a top heel for a long time in a w and that's right Arizona mjf and some of these other guys That have been in the mix You could even say that there's a some resentment towards Mercedes Monet from fans and I think all of them have their own kind of issues, but I do think for game to the point where it's like I think [SPEAKER_02]: Fans, because they're so emotionally invested in the success of AW, like legitimately emotionally invested as, and like, we are counting on this company to be this mainstream wrestling company that's not WWE, and it's the only company that has seems to have anywhere close to the financial resources to at least combat WWE on equal footing in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: That the entire wrestling world is hinging on the success of AEW and that just all that emotion gets channeled into like just various different odd things like all this figurine anxiety that pops up and that's how you get people like being like oh like MJF is um you know he's he's he's like an actual asshole and not just playing on a TV.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the cats are the cats doing the right sort of saying [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's fine, run it, the cheers can't, but yeah, like there's a fundamental, there's a fundamental anxiety that exists with with a W fans that I, I don't think it will ever shake until WWE is out of business, which is something that then will probably never happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: The, you know, everything always seems like it's teetering on the edge, you know, that it's everything that's on the road.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily exactly exactly because we know things are much more secure.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you look, we're recording this on on on September 4th, you know, you probably saw the, the bad rating that dynamite had last night.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the anxiety is out full force and the defense brigade is out there and it's like everyone needs to calm down and relax.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because like you said, their A, W is such an [SPEAKER_01]: They're bound to happen and they should not trigger these visceral responses that everything is going to hell and this is going to be an overall disaster.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just can't keep going down that route.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not healthy and it's not healthy for the performers either because to swing this back over to Max, I got assumed the guy is, we know he's online, we know he reads the comments.

[SPEAKER_01]: We know he's sensitive to these things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put it that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's no way that at some point this doesn't affect you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way that at some point this doesn't just come and get to you, and ultimately affects how you're going to perform.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or affects your decisions moving forward as to whether or not, oh, well, I'm going to, you know, do I stay in this promotion?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or do I go check out how things are elsewhere?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe I'll just be better elsewhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I was, I randomly just muted myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Apologies for any break, break there.

[SPEAKER_02]: You think if you were a wrestler, you would care, like what people like you and I would say about your performances as a wrestler?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would, I would, but you know, I don't, I think it's a question of then how do you see that my dog is barking because my son's coming.

[SPEAKER_01]: There we go.

[SPEAKER_01]: There we go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything's all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I like I probably wouldn't get really deep into the weeds and.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, argue with people or you know, like do stuff like argue about, you know, star ratings and stuff like that, which I think as a wrestler is kind of cringe.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, look, your job, what you do as a professional wrestler, right, is you get into a ring and you do things to get an instant reaction out of people.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're here to a live crowd.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you want the instant reaction, you want the instant gratification, you want to see how [SPEAKER_01]: people are reacting to what you're doing and you want that reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you go on, I think it's a natural extension to go online, to go on, you know, ex-formally Twitter or whatever, to see how people are reacting towards you because it's an extension of that performance that you just put on, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's different from movies where you as a performer you don't get that instant hit of adrenaline because the crowd loves your film and is enjoying what you're doing because it's more of a passive form of entertainment.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a musician where you can get that [SPEAKER_01]: So the idea of going online, yeah, you know, I understand, I do that, I go, I go see what people are talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do some vanity searching.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd see what the trends are.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would think that too, but I think when you say like, oh, like, if MJ have a scene a lot of the criticism he's seeing from like, our corners of the internet, our circle, our share [SPEAKER_02]: Like, if he's seeing that, I don't know if that would influence, I just, I don't want to, I don't want to assume anything about how these people who are on TV and are facing so much criticism all the time for various different people, many of people who are just clearly idiots.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, if I would be influenced by them or not, I just, I don't know, I would say like, if you were to go on Twitter, you would see like who have the most followers and kind of a comment that those people are saying, which is what you would probably be most likely to see unless you were following very specific people.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would, I would, you know, you would see those people like JD from New York like I wouldn't if I was a Brestler, I wouldn't care what that person is saying.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I see and that's what you would probably be most likely to see like If M.J.

[SPEAKER_02]: if is listening to this podcast and he's seeing too very intelligent gentlemen [SPEAKER_02]: uh, bilingual gentlemen, uh, discussing, you know, his career in depth, maybe that's one thing because it's clear that we're putting a lot of care and thought into it, but I imagine your typical grass slurry, typical, and, you know, any type of, of, of public figure is really just seeing what maybe some of the whole, a few loud voices are saying on social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it would be very easy as a wrestler.

[SPEAKER_02]: to be like, all these people are just marks that don't understand the business.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I would be more likely to think that necessarily would be like, oh, like, like, like, this is what the real, like, the 1% super hard core, smart, pundits section of the idea to say, I think you have to be pretty deep into it to pick [SPEAKER_02]: I always operate a little bit under the assumption that the subjects and talking about on this podcast might be listening to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm likely to be true, but that's the journalism journalist in me is to assume that the subject you were writing about is going to read your story.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you can never, never, never doubt who's listening ever, ever, ever, that I've learned that.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, you should never, you should always assume that they are listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if I ever say anything on this podcast, it's because I, in some part of me wants the person who I'm addressing to hear it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, and you would probably say the same thing to their face, which is maybe what some people don't necessarily do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but look, I see where you're going with this, and I understand, look, it goes back to the idea of [SPEAKER_01]: right at the side of the podcast, when we were talking about the O2, and you said, well, 19,000 people in the O2 like the angle clearly, you know, and if there's 1200 people online who are greeting their teeth and going, boo hiss, you know, who do you listen to?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who are you listening to?

[SPEAKER_01]: and but which voices are louder ultimately there's also that are the twelve people the twelve hundred people just like you know spamming your your your your notifications with garbage and and hate and what not [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the 19,000 people cheered and loved it, and appreciated your job for putting the champion over, but then they all went home, and you don't hear about those again.

[SPEAKER_01]: All you get online is this fucking sucked.

[SPEAKER_01]: MJF is awful, he's the worst thing ever, he's the, so I can understand that, you go online to get some gratification and then you run into that.

[SPEAKER_01]: it's a tricky balance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how MJF deals with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how I would deal with that specifically, but I know I would look online.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I would absolutely be searching myself on searching for myself online and seeing how things go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the voice of wrestling discord, but just like seeing a brand new searching your name.

[SPEAKER_02]: for you, Mr.

Warren, hey, it's maybe that's true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing but good stuff, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I would recommend not doing that Warren.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of negative things about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll discard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I think this discussion is running its course.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have anything you want to plug, sir?

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the Mr.

Warren Hayes show is a, uh, is a thing that I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do a podcast every week that is available on YouTube at YouTube dot com slash Mr.

Warren Hayes or on your favorite podcast application of choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also stream on the YouTube channel a couple of nights a week.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's always fun and we have a nice little community over there and it's a good time We'd love to have you pop in if you can.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also do a dynamite review every week on Thursday Available as as a podcast as well on every anywhere you want to listen to that so subscribe follow find me You can also follow me on on the blue sky [SPEAKER_01]: at Mr.

Warren Hayes dot show.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's always a pleasure to get the invitation to come to the gentleman's wrestling podcast, Jesse.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love the opportunity to chat pro wrestling talk ball with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always a great time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for the invitation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you were really like a little sky at the early adopter in terms of the wrestling space.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I was there early on, correct?

[SPEAKER_02]: How would you describe your experiences as a blue sky wrestling guy?

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I enjoy it because a lot of people had the, on the, on the, on their surf, on, you know, on surface level seem to agree with a lot of my wrestling takes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say it's excellent, but you know, if you're going in there to be, you know, to, to, to have different visions of, of, of, for wrestling that may.

[SPEAKER_01]: skew away from things that are AW centric are maybe more towards WWE or that skew maybe on the away from the left side of the political spectrum, it's not for you, it's just not for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I enjoy it overall.

[SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a good spot for for for me in terms of like the audience and I'm speaking to.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you wanted to reach more people, it's still better to be on Twitter, but just the quality of interaction of the average person that you're interacting with on on wrestling Twitter is so low and blue sky.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's far fewer people, but at the same time, it's [SPEAKER_02]: The quality average person is much more likely to actually engage you in a real conversation as opposed to a quick reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Twitter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not on Twitter anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the only time I ever really see anything is if there's a link to something on Twitter and I'll click on the link.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll just like see like the plies and they're just like so bad and I do it myself Wow, this was like something I actually engaged in like what a waste of my life [SPEAKER_02]: it's garbage like that you know what's right now that I know it's worse now than you used to be like yeah like there are flies like I would have taken it just for people threatened to kill to tell me to kill myself for a bad you know anti-WWE take I prefer those people over the people there just trying to tell me about crypto [SPEAKER_02]: That's fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see like, yeah, you'll get like, I'll see like it'll be like a popular like like tweet and you'll see like in their, the comment section, there's like 50 blue check marks which are at the top of the page and they're all like just talking about some meme coin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, I'm just looking at blah, blah, blah, blah coin keep rising and like the next time that I can't believe, just seeing it go up up and up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, this is just what this is.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is what Twitter has [SPEAKER_01]: And scrolling through replies is, you know, it's become really tedious too because now you get suggested tweets like as you're going through the replies, you get suggested tweets.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then never from anyone interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, and it breaks the flow and you're like, why is this person saying something?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, it's not this person is out replying.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is something completely different that I should be interested in, but I really am not.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a terrible, terrible website now, it's awful.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks a lot, Warren.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate for being on the show.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank all my listeners, and I'll talk to everyone again after a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, bye-bye.