[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back everyone to the Germans wrestling podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host as always Jesse Collins.

[SPEAKER_00]: And joining me once again, he's a returning guest on the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's one of our favorite guests.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know this is probably the only time in his life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyone's ever described him as one of their favorites.

[SPEAKER_00]: He is our British Columbia correspondent.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is Trevor Dame, host of the through the years our way to retrospective podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing today, Trevor?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not even my own favorite at anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's quite the unbelievable compliment, but I will accept it, not graciously, because I just doubted it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, it is hot in the B.C.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how are you doing, Jessica?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always a pleasure to be up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah well there was a discussion at gentlemen's wrestling podcast headquarters in our offices earlier today a lot of people in the office where we were ranking our our favorite uh...

reoccurring Canadian guests and you were in the top ten so i i think that's a good spot for you yeah absolutely i i've got to i've got to be here in remind people what it takes you know to uh...

uh...

i'm sorry i couldn't even finish that but i will do my best [SPEAKER_00]: I do always of course appreciate your form of self-deprecation humor as a practitioner of it myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was eating ice cream earlier today and my roommate was like oh you got some ice cream and I said yeah I'm doing this podcast with his guy later and he just he just really fucking sucks and I just got to put myself in as good of a mood as possible just to get through it and she's like oh why are you having a podcast with them like it's complicated.

[SPEAKER_01]: There doesn't really feel like self-deprecating.

[SPEAKER_01]: That feels more like me deprecating.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, you're supposed to laugh about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was the self-deprecating part on your hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that was the self-deprecating.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was just me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I enjoyed this episode because it will be the last time I'm on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a joke.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, we don't know how this podcast is episode is going to go.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could say some cancel little stuff and you'll be out of here, but Trevor's on because I want to talk about a W and really some big picture stuff as we get set for all in this weekend.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're recording this on a Wednesday evening.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've got dynamite on in the background.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, exactly what's happening right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're getting a video package for Kenny Omega versus because you should go caught on which, uh, has been a very highly demanded video package for these two guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I certainly encourage the wrestling universe, but I want to focus on [SPEAKER_00]: I guess essentially what has gone right for AW in twenty twenty five and kind of how we've gone to this point where it seems like we're having pretty much every television episode is getting really good reviews and we've had some exciting very good paper views and we're setting up for [SPEAKER_00]: their biggest show in they've ever had in the United States.

[SPEAKER_00]: The only show that they've ever had that's going to draw bigger audiences is the two shows at Wembley Stadium.

[SPEAKER_00]: And how did a W kind of get here?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because if we were having this conversation last year or having that conversation, you know, eighteen to twenty four months ago, it wouldn't necessarily be, oh, [SPEAKER_00]: Look how great AEW is doing in conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: There have been some real problems that the company has been able to kind of, I think, overcome.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to kind of go over kind of what has gone right into this of twenty five with you, Trevor, because I do think you're, you're a pretty good big picture guy and you're obviously very observant of some of the broader trends that kind of, I think, impact and wrestling company beyond just, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: raging at a certain match results, sir, or the way a lot of people seem to do wrestling, pundit tree these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been known to observe some wrestling, but yeah, it's you know what the interesting thing is, and this is not a great way to start the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: The reason a lot of the reasons why I feel like a W's done better this year are kind of boring in the sense of [SPEAKER_01]: It's just been very nuts and bolts, you know, it's been consistently just build it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was talking about this on Twitter or the other day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like compare this, you were talking about, you know, where they started to go wrong maybe a couple of years ago, compare this all in build to the, the first, the all in build two years ago, where even though that was like the biggest show of in some ways all time, [SPEAKER_01]: And that show was filled with matches that didn't have good bills that felt kind of sloppily thrown together, haphazard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you look at that card now to twenty, twenty-three's all in, it does not feel like a card be fitting a wrestling event that's set like the indoor attendance record.

[SPEAKER_01]: It just doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where this year, [SPEAKER_01]: on the day on the night of the double or nothing paper view.

[SPEAKER_01]: By the end of that show, the paper view before all in two months out, you knew what the top three matches were.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, two of them were already on the books and everyone basically knew Ocada, Omega was happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you knew what the top three matches were.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think this year is full [SPEAKER_01]: of simple things like that where, you know, they always had the talent, they had the horses, a lot of times they got distracted, the weird crisis happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think just a lot of things like that where it is just a company that this is probably like the best stretch they've just had of just keeping their eye on the ball, their head down and doing the million simple things or wrestling companies should do just to feel stable and building maybe a little bit of momentum.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when I think about what has gone right this year, there are a number of things, but the first thing that I really want to focus on is I think that this is the best the AW roster has ever been utilized.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could make a case, it's the strongest the roster has ever been from a personnel and from a health perspective.

[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things I think has been really attributable to a kind of company wide turnaround in twenty twenty five is I think are really strong focus on the best people that they could possibly have for building a company not only for the present but also for the future.

[SPEAKER_00]: The first.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, not one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I was just, I thought you were, I was just going to say, um, yeah, I think, you know, it's still somewhat of a problem for them of too many over stuff people, but I think this year, they've definitely gotten better at [SPEAKER_01]: feeling like you see certain people on dynamite every week, and you kind of know who the top stars are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not this, you know, they're still a rotating cast underneath and maybe if you have favorites, you know, that aren't being the top-push people.

[SPEAKER_01]: You feel like, oh, they still disappear.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see them as much as I should.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in that core group of main adventures, it feels like now you watch dynamite weekend and we can't for the last few months, and you know who the top stars are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's a key point and one of the ones I'm kind of getting at.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the first several years of AEW when you think about like the roster in general, it really is a complicated messy kind of system where you have the original roster where the company first starts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then you're just kind of a [SPEAKER_00]: acquiring all of these SWW talent that is getting released or they're in a contract rundown and they make the job.

[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them were great additions, some of them were not good additions and it took a while to kind of figure out who the right people were, who the wrong people were.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're also kind of [SPEAKER_00]: pushing some people because you're like, oh, this person's a young wrestler.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's try to push them because we believe in them, but then maybe that person didn't really take off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now you kind of are stuck with this person.

[SPEAKER_00]: You've kind of invested in, but you feel like you, you have to keep pushing them on television.

[SPEAKER_00]: But other people have kind of come in and you have suspensions and you have injuries and you have all of the stuff happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we get to the point now when you look at who's going to be on this all-incard and you kind of look at who has been carrying the television for the last several months.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is not, like I say, it's a smaller group in a lot of ways than in the past, but it's also a more logical, more sensible group from a lot of what, for a lot of different reasons.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't have this kind of, [SPEAKER_00]: I would say it's more defined would be the best way.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have your clear top guys, you have your midcard as you have your younger wrestlers underneath, and then you kind of have your, your, your, your cannon fodder wrestlers who are who are losing on television a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it just, it seems like healthier and a lot easier for the audience to understand that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something I've really focused on as a wrestling fan this year.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not intentionally, but just kind of something that I feel like has something that's gotten more and more my attention, especially when I think about certain wrestling promotions like AEW and like New Japan pro wrestling is [SPEAKER_00]: having like dead weight on your roster, having people on your roster that are not really contributing in a significant way and taking up time and opportunity from other people who could be contributing in a greater way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this somewhat leaner version of feature talent on aide in a w is I think really short on dead weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: At the start of this year, I was a little concerned about.

[SPEAKER_00]: how many older wrestlers were being featured, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We had Chris Jericho, of course, we had Jeff Jarrett, was on television a lot, Christopher Daniels, although I liked his angle of time, my page was working this angle of time, man page.

[SPEAKER_00]: You had Dustin Rhodes, you just seem to have all these guys there in their fifties, and it's like, what, you know, of course you had Adam Copeland and Christian.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, what is this promotion?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like is it the young exciting promotion or is it WWE retirement home promotion?

[SPEAKER_00]: And in a vacuum, I can say, oh, I like these individual performers on a individual basis.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when I came to just looking at the cards, look at the show, it's like, is this a thriving young growing wrestling promotion or is this like nostalgia promotion?

[SPEAKER_00]: for wrestlers who were on the tail ends of their career.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think since the start of this year as we now sit here in July of to this in twenty five we've seen a total change and this feels like a roster dedicated towards like I said not only the present but the future as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I think that's a great point and it's one thing that makes me a little scared when you know [SPEAKER_01]: Copeland and Jericho will probably eventually be coming back and they will be used in some roles of prominence probably.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think it's a complete coincidence.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's far from the only reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think it's a complete coincidence that kind of this continued upswing is kind of coincided with those guys being gone and that allowing you to lavish more resources on other people that are a little bit younger, fresher.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one thing A, W, I think is done, which [SPEAKER_01]: I was calling for a long time ago was when I talked about, you know, focusing on fewer stars, I was thinking, you have a good, really good core for here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in the last few months of TV, they have largely focused on those guys, made them feel, I'll say them in a second, made them feel like top of the card names that always get some attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those guys would be Adam Page.

[SPEAKER_01]: mjf, this is a no real order swir strickland and will aspirate and I think the things they have in common is they all feel like they belong to a w like you could say okay, aspirate had a long career before a w but this was the first company in the you major coming to the u.s.

[SPEAKER_01]: he signed with things done really good work already and really [SPEAKER_01]: found a role quickly here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Page field is an A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: Day one guy, M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_01]: is an A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: guy that feels like this was his first major production of national prominence.

[SPEAKER_01]: And swore of even, you could say, okay, W.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, swore of fields like an A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: guy in the sense of he is the absolute best case scenario.

[SPEAKER_01]: you could possibly have, I think, the gray success story.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could ever have of Sony a guy from WWE of, you know, an example of a guy who just did not take this as a demotion, had like a chip on a shoulder and worked his butt off to work here, became a very vocal flagbearer for AW and has just kind of proven that he was not fully utilized, close to fully utilizing WWE.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those guys, they all have another very important thing in common, which is, [SPEAKER_01]: I believe their age range is twenty nine to thirty four.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even on the upper end of that, you think knock on wood guys don't get hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have at least five years in them of like prime, you know, don't probably don't have to worry about them physically, hopefully.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, in modern wrestling, that's a baby, you know, twenty nine to thirty four.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when you look at the WW, some of the guys that are pushing right now on top, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's a, I think that's a great distinction.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to have, you want to have that comparison point of, you know, and I know Moxley's there as World Champion right now, and I know you've got guys like Omega's in the mix, guys like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they should be in the main event mix, but to me, those core four should be the guys that they're always doing something really important.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then all your other big names, including your veterans of the past, whether it be Omega, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Moxley, when you bring in Coper, Jericho, whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those guys can kind of float in and out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, when I talk about like wanting to put four guys on a tier above everyone else, [SPEAKER_01]: those are the four and I guess for women, you know, I think they've done a good job of Tony Storm and Mercedes feel like they're on a tier above everyone else in the division.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think ideally you'd want to turn that that top tune to kind of the female core four.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think right now it feels like two women that are way on top of everybody else, which isn't the worst thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're the champions.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think ideally [SPEAKER_01]: You would want a couple other people to kind of separate, to be booked in a way that separates them from the pack.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because right now, you have a lot of really talented women, but it feels like Mercedes and Tonya on one tier.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's like a twelve person middle, like tier below, way below them.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of muddled.

[SPEAKER_01]: But overall, I think they've done a good job last few months of kind of picking the right people and then making them feel like they're, they are the core of this promotion.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think when the company first started, naturally, we're going to rely on people with established star power, which because your company has no history is going to be people who have star power from other promotions.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say that from the first day of the company, your top four male singles acts are Chris Jericho, John Moxley, Cody Rhodes, and Kenny Omega.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all because those guys are coming from other companies mainly WWE, but also New Japan and things like that with Kenny.

[SPEAKER_00]: But over time, that was six years ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now you're looking at who is going to be that next inheritant generation and right when the company started right they came up with their whole four pillars gimmick where we're going to pick four guys in our twenty their twenties those guys are going to do the future of our company in mjf semicolvara jack Perry and Darby Allen [SPEAKER_00]: And I always said that was a mistake to kind of label those guys as the Fort Pillars.

[SPEAKER_00]: It made it seem like they were all going to be kind of in a rivalry with one another when they were so young and so raw that we didn't know how they were actually going to develop and whether or not they would all end up becoming main event acts.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we've got an answer to that question over the last six years.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then answer is that certainly in Jack Perry and Samuel Guvaro's case, that's done happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what is the company done, especially over the last year or so, is that they've really pivoted towards, okay, we have, we do have our next four top guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Their time is now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to be Swerve, Will Osprey, M.J.F.

[SPEAKER_00]: who's one of those four pillars in Hangman Page.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was kind of in the gap between established top guy when the company first started and young in a guy, let me up and up on the come up.

[SPEAKER_00]: But you weren't the one and one of the big things for Tony was that he was not married to the idea of we got to push Jack Perry.

[SPEAKER_00]: We got to push him and go far right at any cost because those are the guys I pit.

[SPEAKER_00]: who had years and years to find out who was gonna stand out from that younger crop, who was gonna become available like a will on a spray, and we're gonna make sure that those decision we make is gonna be the best for who's the best right now, and not being married to an original idea, which is a concern that I had.

[SPEAKER_00]: kind of like a few years ago that Tony was going to be married to his ideas and wouldn't be able to pivot to who the best person actually ends up being, not just who he wanted to be the top guys when he started the company six years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to just make clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with the people they focused on when they start.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you're starting out from scratch, guys with name value from other places that like big-time name value like Jericho, like Moxley, I think they were hugely important to the company and they were needed at needed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this likewise, I also don't think you should be militant about [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if a big start from WWE that can really contribute and it's going to take this is like a working vacation becomes available.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'd be crazy not to sign them and push them, but I do think five years in.

[SPEAKER_01]: you do want to kind of be in the position that they finally found themselves in where you feel like you have your own history and most of your major names feel like either created by A and W or they've really been adopted by A and W not just big stars on us from the past on a stop here and you know I don't think they were quite there but I think there was a danger of [SPEAKER_01]: They were at times where they may be flirted a little bit with the danger of being like past DNA at sometimes where you have these really talented [SPEAKER_01]: guys that kind of feel like they belong to you like some of the exhibition guys and Joe and stuff, but they're always, and they do get pushed intermittently, but then you would find in a lot of errors a teeny, they would always end up taking a backseat because whoever was the new flavor of the day, whoever's the new big available star from WWE, they just come in, well, they have to get pushed immediately.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you do that too much, you create this kind of tier system where you're kind of train your fans to feel like, [SPEAKER_01]: our home grown guys they're they're fairly big but they're not as big as WWE guys and whenever WWE big guys come in they're that they go back to the back of the line because those guys will take precedence and you know right now I feel like again that they have a good mix and it doesn't feel like that it feels like if you watch a w that the top stars are people and you know that I guess the last thing I'm done is [SPEAKER_01]: It's especially important given how the troubles AW has had with some prominent wrestlers very clearly not treating AW as like a place they really want to be as in treating instead as a place where they don't see this as the big time.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to do jobs here.

[SPEAKER_01]: They feel like they're biting their time until then they can go back to WWE and [SPEAKER_01]: I think you, again, that's another thing when you look at the history of police like TNA, you really want to be careful about pruning that stuff as much as possible because that nothing's going to make you feel more minor league than having too many stories like that come out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a harsh lesson that I think that the company had to learn.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and it kind of makes sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think sometimes we think of Tony and A.

W.

We think like, oh, like, he's running a company and he needs to do this and he needs to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And oh, why do you do this and why do you do that?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, this guy had never run a wrestling company before.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there are a lot of things that you learn during your years running a wrestling company for the first time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of them was being more selective with who is available.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, there was a time where basically anyone that [SPEAKER_00]: kind of fit like a stylistic vision of AW, twenty one designs.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how we got Miro.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how we got on dry day.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how we got Malachi Black.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in the long run, those guys were not productive members of the roster because they were not actually good fits for AW.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in the long run, they should have never been signed, even though they might have had some good moments here or there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Tony has become a lot more understanding of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't seen him be nearly as aggressive.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think just signing anyone that's available to him.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then result again, I think in letting's in also letting some people go, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Letting some of these guys either walk back to WWE or not renewing their contracts or and I think that's gone as back to a much healthier point.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think hopefully for the long run, Tony's learned to be a little bit more pertinent and who he decides to bring in because that's a key factor as he mentioned with these guys coming in not wanting to job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, there's debate right now everyone's thinking is the hurt business.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of those acts and I think we're going to get to the point where maybe we're going to find out, you know, sooner or later, because I feel like the clock kind of clock is ticking waiting.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that those guys shouldn't be pushed, but.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are rumors about how they refuse to do jobs, how they not, you know, people instantly got their rancals up about, you know, the fake feels weird that Lashley came in immediately beats Swerve and doesn't return the loss, you know, and Lashley hasn't really lost.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think the interesting thing now is fans, AW fans are kind of hyper aware of that stuff now and they're looking for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas before, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of had to happen for a while, where now I'm not a hundred percent sure that's even the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're just in the realm of rumors, the booking of them is still relatively soon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they're just building to a big loss.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we're seeing that with Mercedes, where there's this segment of people, a lot of them are AEW fans that are trying to say, oh Mercedes won't job and stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I haven't seen anything that suggests that's rooted in reality.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think what we're seeing is maybe I'll be proven wrong again.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think what we're seeing is just a strong push trying leading for a major big ticket star that they likely gave a huge contract to building to hopefully meaningful wins.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, losses to other people down the line.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, AW fans have now been primed to be on guard for that stuff, because they've seen so many examples of people that have treated AW as kind of beneath them.

[SPEAKER_01]: going to what you said like I do think it's fascinating that Tony Khan is a very savvy smart guy in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's clearly a student of wrestling group as a big time fan and like not just anything but like a very nerdy internet fan.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean that in a good way and get I feel like there were still some [SPEAKER_01]: lessons he had to learn through experience because if you look at the way in the early months of a W the way he talked about like a WWE was much softer than he like like it there was almost a little naivety naivety about like [SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, I mean, he knew his history, that what WWE does to competition, but it felt like he kind of had to experience it before he took a little harder edge and started throwing some shots back and being a little more expecting counter programming and these kind of things in the pettiness that can happen to come about.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like it was the same with these kind of wrestlers where it took him some muros and Malachi blacks, even though he should have been aware of that from wrestling history, [SPEAKER_01]: To learn, I think, a very important lesson, which is, you know, wrestlers can be great in other companies.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can say, oh, there's wrestler from WWE is leaving or is getting released and man, they're great there.

[SPEAKER_01]: That'd be a great sign for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: just because that's who they are in WWE doesn't mean that's going to be what they are in your promotion.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you need to gauge them on mindset first and I keep bringing up teenagers because they're the best example we have since WCW of a company that was in a similar position some ways and there were so many people that, you know, big names that were great talents from WWE that went to TNA and got pushes [SPEAKER_01]: And they did fifty percent of the effort.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they weren't valuable the way you would hope they would be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there were people like Drew McIntyre who has drew Galway, clearly went into TNA and the Indies scene to at the same time with a chip on a shoulder with, you know, and maybe even at that first moment he had in his mind, I'd love to go back to WWE one day.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he was going to work his ass off.

[SPEAKER_01]: and prove WWE wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the people you want.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want the Swift Stricklands of the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you want the people who are like, I have a passion for wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am hungry for this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to prove people wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like fuck them for releasing me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And not the people who do the aerial, aerial, Hawaiian, although I know I'm referencing Corrigate.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a little unfair because it wasn't, you know, eating a little bit more full context or her quote there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the vibe of [SPEAKER_01]: gosh, I hope I, you know, whatever I did wrong to get released, I hope one day I can earn their love again.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want more, you know, if I'm signing someone from WWE, I want a little more fuck you in them, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's one of those things that, like I said, we had, I think you said, we said, I said, Tony had to learn it, but, you know, fans had to learn it too, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you mentioned, like now fans are being much more aware of what's been going on with, I'm sorry, my audio is a little off.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going through some minor technical difficulties.

[SPEAKER_00]: fans had to learn that as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you said, they're picking up on it now where it might actually be working against the hurts and to get who like you said might just be experiencing a normal push.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but now people are wondering that, you know, maybe they're going to to not be one of those mountain tents backstage or don't want to do jobs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that would be bad for the company and it's kind of created an extra anxiety level that definitely was there when the company first started.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then like again, I don't know with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we're starting to get to the time, like, you know, with them being in a three way for all in, is that just a way to get the tag tiles off them without having to lose to anybody directly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think we're getting to the point where we're going to start to really figure out.

[SPEAKER_01]: is this losses?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are these rumors true or are they just waiting for the right moment?

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll find out soon, but the fact is we're primed to be on guard and be aware of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: before we even really are completely a hundred percent sure sometimes now which you know it's not necessarily a bad thing is it's it's my second the other day I wonder and I don't know if this would be good but like there is kind of an idea on paper of a ready-made character for the right wrestler which is the WWE cast off that thinks they're better than AEW like I don't know like I think it's kind of dangerous to play with that idea [SPEAKER_01]: Because you don't want to make yourself seem small potatoes.

[SPEAKER_00]: The bad character that comes in and says that you have jobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you don't want you don't want to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Vince Russo where you're breaking the fourth wall on all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the idea of someone that kind of gives the air that they think they're better than this, that they're not really playing ball.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, but then a wrestler who's embodying that character that actually will play ball in the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, that's building on real resentments and real fierce fans have.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it sucks because some of these wrestlers have for a W have gotten real heat that they can't capitalize on because once people realize what's going on with them, they're being iced out and waiting to go back to WDA when the contract runs out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, imagine you could get that same kind of resentment.

[SPEAKER_01]: but then build it to a loss that puts over somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I don't know, and this isn't even think that'd be a great, I don't, that might be a terrible idea, but I just think it is at least an interesting idea to think about that the idea playing with that, but who knows?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to go back to AW Revolution this year, which was a very widely positively received show with the exception of the main event, which people did not like.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if people remember, that's the main event with John Moxley and Adam Copeland that turned into the trip to threat match when Christian Cage cash in his knockoff money in the bank contract.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wrote an article following that show for voicels at wrestling.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was really just focusing on everything we saw on the undercard, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a show.

[SPEAKER_00]: Opened up with Hangand Page versus MJF, and that really good match.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we saw Swer versus Ricochet.

[SPEAKER_00]: We saw the Tony Storm Orion May, big blow off match, the Hollywood ending.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we had a, you know, Osprey and Fletcher working the semi-main event in the steel cage match.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like very clearly [SPEAKER_00]: AW had this all of these talents that were young and in their prime and delivering at the super high level.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got this main event with John Moxley and then these two guys that are like fifty.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just such a vibe change from what was a young and exciting wrestling promotion.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then oh, it's time for the retirement home main event.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: That was kind of like this, this worrying sign because the company has so much potential.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was all right there, but still the thing that's holding them back is this weird made event and at the time it was this very long Copeland versus Moxley program with Moxley not really being the problem there because I would say he's still a wrestler that's in his prime.

[SPEAKER_00]: but certainly coping and Christian are on the back end of their careers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think since then there's been a really positive pivot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now you could just say, well that's because Copeland went away.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so Moxley's moved on to wrestling other opponents and there's been other guys that aren't necessarily young like Samoa Joe that have been involved with Moxley.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think at the end of the day, the company's done a much better job.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, building around those core four young guys and guys that are all in [SPEAKER_00]: what we considered to be the beginning of their crimes, if they're wrestling careers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and yeah, it's funny that the reaction of that revolution, paper view, where that was a great example of sometimes the main event, you know, you can have a good show and have the main events bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: It can leave a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths and likewise, I've seen shows that haven't been very good, but you have an amazing main event.

[SPEAKER_01]: And people are like, yeah, that was worth my money.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it is just [SPEAKER_01]: Again, there's nothing wrong with using veterans, but sometimes I feel like Tony almost gives them a little too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Create of influence, a little too much respect to their past.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's tough.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a balancing act.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think one thing that's really good about AW and Tony is he treats people veterans with respect and he doesn't shy away from their past.

[SPEAKER_01]: He likes elaborates it and just that he seems like he gives a lot of his wrestlers a little more input.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some people see that as a bad thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's a bad thing and that's been normal for wrestling history but it's like anything else.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's how much input you give and which people do you give input to and [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like the old thing where, you know, the same fire that can cook your dinner can bring your hand where, you know, give creative control to a thirty four-year-old guy that has really good instincts.

[SPEAKER_01]: And by creative control, I don't mean anything more special than just listening to their ideas and allowing them a lot more input into what they do, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be sitting pretty and give that to same career control to like a Guinness late forties maybe that wants to relive their past and doesn't have a lot of new ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not thinking of anyone specific.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just using that as like a base kind of template and that same good [SPEAKER_01]: good like intention is going to really sour your product to and create some real dead segments and things like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think that's one of the really exciting, well, not actually, I'm kind of draining it partly, but that's going to be one of the really interesting things we see in the coming months when some of these veterans like Jericho and Cope come back, which is how much of this has is them being a little more selective about [SPEAKER_01]: who to push in the top way and how much of that is just certain people that they would give that leeway to aren't around and sucking up some of the oxygen and segment time and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good point.

[SPEAKER_00]: One of the best criticisms of A, W, I've heard in quite some time was that A, W at times is a home for all of these X, W, W wrestlers, especially these veteran wrestlers, like Copeland, to do the things that they wanted to do that Vince McMahon wouldn't let them do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that hasn't always been something that's like super helpful for the company, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Coping Christian want to do their big feud that they never really got to do the way they wanted to in WWE.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they're going to do an AEW when they're both in their fifties.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the hurts and make it comes in and they wanted to be a basically do what they wanted to do in WWE and then had their likes cut off from them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not new.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not innovative.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not something that's going to help a W created its own identity or further establish the identity that it's worked to create.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that I'm worried about.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not really that worried about Jericho in the sense that I think Jericho had basically been like a midcard guy for a while now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, if he comes back, will he be different?

[SPEAKER_00]: He shown the ability to pivot.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would expect when Jericho comes back that he's going to be some sort of different character.

[SPEAKER_00]: And at least for a short period of time, [SPEAKER_00]: get over and people be excited about it because that's really his legacy in his career.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a little bit less confidence in Copeland, but we'll see what ends up happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think Jericho has a chance to do something that he used to be great at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gotten to a weird section of his career here where he forgot to do it, which is Jericho for years used to be very savvy about not overstaying as well, come using his outside interests like [SPEAKER_01]: it was pausing and you know those little bit of Hollywood stuff to find reasons to leave for a while so he doesn't overstay as well come and then he came back to be refreshing to have a new gimmick and even though he kept trying new gimmicks with like the bad apple stuff and all that you know like the learning tree stuff it was like this felt like the first time in a long time where [SPEAKER_01]: He had overstated his wealth into the point where you could hear fans were starting to resent him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he had just, he had just not taken a break, like a significant break in a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it'll be interesting to see, can he go, you know, as he's getting on in years, can he find one more, can he do that trick he used to do so often one more time where he comes back.

[SPEAKER_01]: maybe the resentment goes lowers a bit and then maybe people when they're saying, okay, I'll take another look at you.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has something new to say, but [SPEAKER_01]: He's getting older and I don't know if his instincts are quite as sharp as they were in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, we'll see, again, that's another interesting thing to see if and when he comes back is, you know, there's a bunch of things coming up where it's like the hurt syndicate, we're gonna find out, you know, are they willing to do business or not?

[SPEAKER_01]: He guys like Coke and Jericho and like R-A-W willing to put them in the proper proportions in place.

[SPEAKER_01]: all of that stuff we're going to find out in the coming months.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a big thing with being a booker, you know, it's generating ideas, but a big part of being a wrestling booker is being a filter for everyone around you because when you're a wrestling booker, there are everyone around you is coming to you with ideas, whether you have a creative staff, your agents, you know, the your roster obviously just goddamn reporters, you know, people on Twitter, everyone [SPEAKER_01]: It is giving you the opinion and your job as a filter is not to say no to everyone and it's not to say yes to everyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's to hear ten ideas, be able to identify the three that are good.

[SPEAKER_01]: and use them and be able to point let's not just be able to identify the seven that are bad but be able to say no them in a way that if they're big stars they don't resent you for being like well you said yes to those guys three guys ideas like like it's it's a lot of massaging he goes it's a lot of juggling plates [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I really hope that what we're seeing this year has been the filter getting sharper and not just less things having being put in the filter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's objection all things being put in the filter to the begin.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's we don't have to worry about how good the filter is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I think Tony has said recently and maybe on this week on the media tour promoting all and signed to the effect of he thinks a W's been really good in this year in part because there's fewer voices.

[SPEAKER_01]: To me, that's an encouraging sign if he's identifying that as like.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's, this is a, this is a really key point in I think what we're talking about what's gone right is that and he's been very vocal about this and he said this a few times over the last few months, which is basically him saying, [SPEAKER_00]: I've had to learn to be able to say no to more ideas.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had fewer voices and it's been my creative vision.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I really, he's really taken a lot more personal responsibility for everything that's been put in front of him and not just focusing on, oh, what is this wrestler want to do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay, they want to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's let them do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's totally reflected in the product.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you had a good point too, which was, you know, kind of talking about [SPEAKER_01]: You know, wrestlers like what their dreams are and like, you know, letting wrestlers do the things they never got to do in other places.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if it's a good idea, it's great to do that because I don't think you're ever going to get a better performance than when they're the most personally invested in what they're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how can they be any more personally invested than if an idea is something they've come up with that they want to do, but like going to what you were saying, like, [SPEAKER_01]: just because a wrestler has an idea doesn't mean it's good and a lot of wrestlers come up with a ton of bug fuck terrible ideas like they're once a year rumors of there's ones you sometimes see on the screen and you know it doesn't matter how invested they are if it's a terrible idea and yeah I think that's we're talking about like lessons he's had to learn through experience [SPEAKER_01]: I think, and I hope we're seeing sound of the signs that he's learned.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of those lessons he's been learning through experience, which is, you know, personal investment, a wrestler having input and personal investment and what they're doing is great, but just because a wrestler has an idea doesn't mean it's good.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and obviously wrestlers that have that are getting paid more money that have a bigger reputation are going to have a little bit more control than than other wrestlers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's we're also part of the issue of you're going to bring in all these X W W talents that are going to be making a lot of money that.

[SPEAKER_00]: our veteran wrestlers that part of the I think the appeal of going AW as one of these older established veterans is the idea that you can have this a lot more control and a bigger imprints not only on what you're doing but the whole company is doing in a way that you could never possibly even dream about doing in WWE.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's something that's that's I think attractive to some of these guys I think it's certainly attractive to people like Jericho.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to give Jericho a lot of credit here I think [SPEAKER_00]: Jericho's run in AEW so far, which is now six years.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think has gone basically exactly the way you wanted it to, which is when he was when the company started, they really needed him.

[SPEAKER_00]: They needed him to anchor shows, they needed him to be the original champion, they needed him for media attention.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was by far the biggest, most recognizable mainstream name that they had on their roster and they used them a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like you said, he didn't take that, you know, time off like he always does.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was on screen a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: But over time, the company became less reliance on him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Other people stepped up there.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll do establish other stars in no small part due to Jericho's role himself, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Jericho put over MJF.

[SPEAKER_00]: very early during his time in the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jericho put over Orange Casti.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jericho put over Will Osprey.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jericho did all of this stuff using his talent and his recognition to help make these other guys bigger deals.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now the company is in a space where they don't need them anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jericho could leave a W tomorrow and the company would have almost [SPEAKER_00]: No, it would have no impact on the company, which is a good thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's where you want to be six years after the company first started.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Chris Jericho is the guy you really, it does in nineteen.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's great to be in up a spot in as of it, twenty five, where you don't need him nearly as much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Despite the fact that I think his contributions to the company should be respected by Tony and everyone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like if you need Chris Jericho, it nearly is much in twenty twenty five as you did when A.

W.

started.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've done something really wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's nothing against Chris Jericho, even that's just the goal of guys that old at that stage of the career should be to help the next generation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Jericho is really, actually really divisive because there are people that will tell you like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he doesn't put people over like he will lose to them, but they'll point to the fact that he does little things that doesn't do it well, and you know, that he's the heat vulture where he finds whoever's hot, and then those people always leave their foods less hot than he comes into or like he'll lose on a paper view, but then win back on a TV.

[SPEAKER_01]: And other people like Jericho's the most selfless guy ever, I'm in the middle where I think Jericho [SPEAKER_01]: does really want to work with a lot of people, like, which, you know, who wouldn't?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's something every wrestler wants to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to go work with that wrestler who's ice colds.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess with Jericho, he won like a lot of wrestlers.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has the power to kind of make that happen more often than not.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think he wants to Jim genuinely put over people.

[SPEAKER_01]: But where I would not go full positive on him is I think a lot of his feuds [SPEAKER_01]: are that good.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, I don't think he intends to suck the heat out of them, but I feel like a lot of feuds even when he puts them over the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not the kind of triumphant, huge popular great endings where you go, man, that really made me excited to see that guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, well, that was okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that wrestler feels like they're kind of going to similar place.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they beat Jericho, but they're kind of going to similar place from where they started.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's also [SPEAKER_01]: Not completely Jericho's fault.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess that's a point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to make that's one problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think AWS on one of their best creative streaks that have been on in their entire history, just a really good no drama, no must no fuss, nuts and bolts wrestling for a few months.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just good.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I can tell you also just flaws.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still find in AWS things I wish they did differently, little and big things.

[SPEAKER_01]: But one thing, [SPEAKER_01]: That I'm another thing that I'm willing to see if they if they've really cut back on it or not, and we'll see is I think sign that's affected people that are flooded with Jericho, which which is.

[SPEAKER_01]: AW has no problem with identifying people that get organically hot, and then quickly identifying them and elving them and giving them a big win in a big initial push.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of coming throughout history have had problems with that because they have weird biases of who deserves a push and who doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: AW largely doesn't have that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what AW has had a problem with is what they do after they give that personally initial big win or initial one month push.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of times where you watch a W.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a guy gets a big initial win, and then you watch the next four weeks, and you're like, oh, you had no other ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you didn't think this any further than, well, we should give this guy a push.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we can even point to recent examples of, and not that I think they're great, like I think a lot of guys I'd rather see on TV than them, but I don't think they're without talent, but like private party.

[SPEAKER_01]: They gave those guys the tag titles, maybe just because the bucks wanted to help them out.

[SPEAKER_01]: and a.

W.

Clearly had no follow for that or Anthony bones he um gets this big relaunch with you know as a single star after a little bit of an absence where he gets to beat next pastor which you know everyone was waiting for that to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: He he has like new gear and new and new kind of nickname and you know new James addiction music that he always wanted and [SPEAKER_01]: they clearly didn't have any other ideas like a fallup.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think something that less than I think A, W, needs to hopefully to learn is when you're pushing somebody initially, giving them that new push to a new level, what they do in the month to three months afterwards is just as important if not more important.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then that initial big win over a star or that initial title win.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you have no ideas afterwards, if you're just going to start giving them random matches on collision, you know, with no real story and then we'll find something for them on the paper view in the last three weeks before and like [SPEAKER_01]: To me, what people should be asking when they push someone, whether about the person on a, w is not just who they beat, what title they get, when do they win it?

[SPEAKER_01]: You need that answer, but you also need the answer of what's their next three months?

[SPEAKER_01]: What's their feud after we do this?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do they instantly go into?

[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have a good answer to that, then you shouldn't even start the push to begin with.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they've done that quite a few times in their history.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think when you're striving to get the big win, but then has no fallout, I believe they call out that the word low.

[SPEAKER_00]: And part of it is also like a talent issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the same thing with Jericho and to connect it back to Jericho too is like, [SPEAKER_00]: When Jericho put over MJF, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: MJF went on to do things, but that's because MJF's really talented.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's someone that can thrive in various suits, not just when he's feuding with Chris Jericho, one of the biggest stars in a company.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the same thing can be said about someone like Will Osprey.

[SPEAKER_00]: When he's working with somebody, maybe at a lower level and trying to put them over, it doesn't always work that well.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think in terms of follow-up and like, Anthony Bowens is a good example, too, which is, again, when we're talking about this leaner kind of roster where you have people kind of really locked into certain roles, there are going to be some casualties to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a really good roster, you sign a lot of people, you got a lot of talented people in the locker room, like which AW has, there's not going to be enough room for everybody on towards the top of the food chain, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have Anthony Bowens who, you know, the tag team with Max Caster kind of ran its course.

[SPEAKER_00]: You wanted to kind of, okay, here comes a big push for Anthony Bowens.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wouldn't have paired him with the gun still.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that would be a major mistake.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are more problems with Anthony Bowens' current singles run than just AEW's booking of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are some things that aren't clicking.

[SPEAKER_00]: But...

I guess my point is that, okay, if we want to really push Anthony Bowens, [SPEAKER_00]: We got to find a spot for him on our current roster where he can win matches and be in relevant foods and that you look at the AWS roster and it's like, all right, who we're going to give Anthony Bowen's more TV time.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to give him on screen wins and all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: Who are we not giving that to?

[SPEAKER_00]: Who should Anthony Bowen's leap frog name a name?

[SPEAKER_00]: on the AWS roster right now, who's doing something significant and say the Anthony Bowens should be in that spot.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough sell for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I really like Anthony Bowens, but it's limited amount of opportunities in a company and it's like, well, they're not going to stop pushing Hangman page or we'll all spray or MJF or Kyle Fletcher in favor of Anthony Bowens.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not going to happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that, and he's, he's just one of several people in the AWS who's like, yeah, they probably could be doing more if they were able to pick up more wins on TV and if they were, you know, got to run with the TNT championship.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough time to be someone coming into the AWS because those spots are locked up and unlike in past errors where they were locked up by somebody who might be older or injury prone, they're locked up by people that are really in their prime.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's been difficult to, it's going to be difficult to find opportunities going forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's a great point too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the biggest resource a resting promotion has and one of the most finite ones is time.

[SPEAKER_01]: You only have so much TV time, you only have so much kind of room in the fans eyes to [SPEAKER_01]: like so many people that you can kind of occupy in their heads at one time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like a lot of times I've even seen people I respect to talk about wrestling sometimes being like, oh, you know, there's no harm in science, many good people to have.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if there's a good person available, sign them, you can always find room.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you really can't.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are only, and I think sometimes AWS made the problem, the mistake of [SPEAKER_01]: They've tried to feature as many people on their paper views and TV as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: When that's not how wrestling succeeds, that's not how wrestlers succeed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wrestling has typically been a business where you identify your key guys and you make sure you give them plenty of time and a consistent presence on your TV, pretty much every week.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then everyone else can kind of fit it along the margins.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's another thing I think a w has done better with that core for this year.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see if they stick to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, going to what you said, every time you push someone, yeah, that should be a question which is like, all right, this guy's been getting a push or this guy's been getting featured or this guy, we're signing them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They haven't been working here when we want to bring them in.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fault question you always need to ask is who are we downshifting, who's leaving that at their expense, you know, because it has to be a trade.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't have the answer for that, then you shouldn't do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, if you look out through our wrestling history and look at when a new star really took off, or someone's career was really made, it's usually pretty closely in correlation with another more established wrestler leaving, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We can put like the classic examples like Steve Austin in the rock, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: How did they become super successful?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, well, Brent Hart left Shawn Michaels retired, the, you know, national hall, left the WCW, like there was a real opportunity, WW, if needed to make a new star, [SPEAKER_00]: Here comes Steve Austin.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's push him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here comes this young guy, the rock.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's push him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how their career goes down.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's been true pretty much throughout all the wrestling history.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in a W, especially when you're talking about the top main events, there's been, made events slots.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's been some opportunities there, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Cody Rhodes left the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sam Punk had his whole incident left the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Brian Daleson retired.

[SPEAKER_00]: Chris Jericho's kind of gone away or at least been fat, certainly phased down in a way that's provided another made of an opportunity.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you've had space for people like Swarth, people like Kangman page to kind of step in.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like you said, the most valuable thing a wrestling promotion has is time and also like resources and [SPEAKER_00]: time to win and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's funny if you compare cash, max, cash, or Anthony Bowens.

[SPEAKER_00]: in terms of like how they're breakup, who's doing better in fairing better from their post breakup.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think clearly the company is focused on pushing Anthony Bowens as like a serious wrestling competitor.

[SPEAKER_00]: But Max Caster, because his character is kind of almost designed to lose, is actually fairing much better than Anthony Bowens in terms of connecting with the audience and getting over [SPEAKER_00]: largely because this character's been designed as a preliminary act that could lose to pretty much anybody on the roster, which is kind of a fascinating development, but it goes to show like how hard it is to kind of break into the next, you know, echelon of talents, even if you are really talented.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think there's one other bad negative side effect to signing too many people, even when you don't force them in, when you're starting to do more of what Tony's been doing this last cycle of just accepting that certain people aren't going to have to sit on the bench for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: The problem with that is, [SPEAKER_01]: When you have people that are just sitting at home for months on end that are healthy, is you get stories like the Baker story we've had the last two weeks where Tony and Brita both had to come out and say like, you know, we don't hate each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: She could come back and I told you he said, like, you know, I think Tony says I do the fact that we just have a deep roster and she's on the bench right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, whether that's all there is to it or not, I have no idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is not good when you have so many people on your roster that there are people that eventually get resentful and make tweets, because that's just bad vibes and bad stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to take up oxygen that could be used to talk about the positive things in your company.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if those wrestlers ideally are talented enough to have fans, you don't want fans to resent.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want fans to see you as the company that might take their personal favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just prevent you from seeing them work for anybody because you know even though in a way Tony it's hard in some ways is in the right place of the sense of [SPEAKER_01]: I know he believes that like, and he's had a couple exceptions, which I don't think is great, but like generally he believes, you know, if I sign a person, I'm paying until the end of the contract, even if I decide I've made a mistake, you know, I'm going to pay them all the way through their contract, but I'm also going to hold them to that contract, because I don't want to set a precedent that if they're unhappy, anyone can just, you know, leave whenever they want, because my competition won't do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: It it ideally you don't want to have way more people than you can use because you just don't want people sitting on the bench.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's too many negatives to that and like I think today like in the hour or two before we started recording.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I saw a thing where like [SPEAKER_01]: Billy gun made a tweet to his kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you guys still working here?

[SPEAKER_01]: And stuff like that where it's like, is it the biggest deal on the grand scheme of things?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, but like, you don't want anyone talking about anything right this week that isn't all in and how exciting everyone should be excited.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone should be going in and all the stuff that's happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want [SPEAKER_01]: anything like that like distracting people and you just open yourself up to that when you have such a giant roster that you have like double-digit people where like a regular conversation at AW fans have had to have the entire time this because this company also is so secret of about so many things is is this wrestler hurt do they have a private issue that is not appropriate to talk about or [SPEAKER_01]: Are they on the outs?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they refusing to lose?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to come back eventually?

[SPEAKER_01]: But the AW is just waiting for the right time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there have been wrestlers that have been like, the, like, each of those things I've just said has been true for different wrestlers, but you never know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it creates just this huge, ever, isn't part of that, this, this, this media dynamic we have where, [SPEAKER_00]: Backstage intrigue is in gossip and backstage news is treated almost as more interesting than the storylines of the action that's happening on screen.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll also complement it by the fact that we live in a news industry that seems to be starved for as much anti-AW dysfunction news as possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: because I feel like that is a major role in why this gets so much attention.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I honestly don't know how much of that is, is even resonating with the more casual fan.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's certainly aware to people like you and I who have to live, but for like your regular wrestling fan, are they really having this many conversations about brick baker and our status, so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how, I mean, look, I think the company is in a pretty good place right now, but again, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think you want to be a situation where if someone likes Britt Baker, they grow to resent you because it's like I've been seen her in so long now and I haven't been told why and I'm getting vague illusions that there's no good reason why and I just don't think you want.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's good for the wrestler.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's good for the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's good for the fans and it's not something you have to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: You just have to be realistic about how many people [SPEAKER_01]: you can have on your roster and how many people you can serve.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like I goes back to where we were just talking about, which is, you know, you have to be very aware of every push you give is eating into, you know, a certain amount of resources you have to offer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a roster size that's you literally is unsustainable for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: What the end we're into because especially over the last few months is how good AW has been in general about creating baby faces and having baby face stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's something that create W and even into the first few years AW's run.

[SPEAKER_00]: American wrestling is really poor at [SPEAKER_00]: baby faces and baby face development is something that WWE has been awful at for a long time now in terms of having baby faces at the fans really care about that are really over in in the buildings and that in turn are easier to get heat on for the heels because people actually want to see the baby faces win these matches and I think especially over the last few months we're talking about this hot streak that WWE has been on [SPEAKER_00]: You have people like Hangman Page who's now fully full blown back being a baby face and is the kind of, you know, baby face that people fans have this emotional investment and it takes a lot of work and very few talent are going to be, are going to be able to kind of deliver on that end.

[SPEAKER_00]: But people really believe in Hangman Page.

[SPEAKER_00]: People really believe in Will Osprey that love Will Osprey.

[SPEAKER_00]: People really love Tony Storm.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just think they've done a really, really strong job, specifically with baby faces.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then that's something that I just think in general, the American wrestling audience has been completely underserved over the last like, fifteen years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, who are truly the best baby face, biggest baby face stars last, fifteen years in the American pro wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's pretty small, less, where you compare that's like any other time in wrestling history.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think one thing is, you know, we, so much of wrestling's history has been dominated the last twenty years first with CNN with Roman of promotion deciding that someone's not just going to be a top guy, but they're going to be a top baby face after crowds telling them, maybe leave and like this person, but we just don't want to see them as the top guy just yet, or we don't want to see them as a baby face right now, how stubbornly they stuck to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's one of those, it's one of those ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say that happened for so long that people thought the default setting for any baby face was that half the fans blew down.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: He seriously thought that because that was what WWE taught us for decades.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's one of those easy wins.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's less of them now than when WWE started, when AWS started, against WWE, when they were in a real creative and even popularity kind of law.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like it's still one of those easy wins by comparison of just, you look better by doing the simplest wrestling thing ever, which is listen to what the fans want, who are they cheering most for, push them as big things as, when they'd stop it, turn them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's the easiest thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think though one good thing they've done in addition to that, [SPEAKER_01]: is we talk about those core four and all those guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: The baby faces in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's been really good about being people that just aren't just good baby faces, but they've been really good in the media of being like very full-throated, making compelling arguments of like I love a, W, A, and W is important.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've been great for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've been great for wrestling.

[SPEAKER_01]: and not every big push wrestler AW has been great at that or compelling or convincing at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Osprey does a good job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Swarve does an amazing job at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hangman does a good job at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want that I want to bring up, and I think this is maybe a good place to do it, is like, Hangman could not come off as a better baby face than what he did in Grand Slime Mexico at that opening problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was another great way, and I don't think the AW in so many ways, I don't think they distinguish themselves [SPEAKER_01]: from WWE nearly as much as they should.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they do so many things.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're still tropey, tropes at WWE uses, that old story, I think Joe Lance told it, I forgive me, it was someone else, where it was a wrestler, I think maybe Sam Punk, where he didn't like, there's some weird thing in a segment they didn't want them to do, I forget what, and someone working at a WWE told him, as a way of saying, like, it was gonna happen, like, that's just how wrestling is now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think AWS, if we're talking about flaws, they still have, [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's still so many things A.W.

[SPEAKER_01]: does these days where if you ask them to reend that they're very W.H.

[SPEAKER_01]: and they're not necessarily to their you know positivity like and so many things that the answer is just well that's the way it's been done for twenty years now like like the the egregious cutaway to the rest they're watching the match on a monitor in the back at a weird angle like [SPEAKER_01]: There are other ways to remind fans, this person's in a feud with this wrestler right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not compelling, it comes off as corny, and it also comes off as if you're imitating WWE.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why do they do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's just the way wrestling's been for twenty years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so anyway, saying all of that, I will say a great way they differentiate themselves was I think when you saw when WWE did worlds collide, and when AEW did, [SPEAKER_01]: a grandson on Mexico.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that the opening segment of World's Collide was Ray Mysterio basically telling the fans that like, now WWE has like given legitimacy to a, to Lucha Libre, and Hangman told the fans, you know, this personal story that I'm seemed real.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would be surprised if it wasn't real, it felt real about like, [SPEAKER_01]: working with Mexican day laborers and the the values they taught him and it ended with him basically like thank you for letting us come to your house.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that shows you a great difference between the two companies philosophy wise, which is WWE has always been this philosophy of [SPEAKER_01]: When we work with someone else, we make them more like us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we give the seal of approval.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always this error.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you come to us, you're in the big leagues now, kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some advantages that there are some disadvantages.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the AW philosophy, I think when they work with other people has been more like [SPEAKER_01]: They're different.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're separate.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're very cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what a honor it is that we get to play with their toys for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: We get to exist in their world for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it did not, you know, AW did not come down to arena Mexico and go finally, you know, AW is grace to arena Mexico with its presence.

[SPEAKER_01]: The energy was very much [SPEAKER_01]: you know, hey, it's so cool that we get to be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Hangman, like you talk about like baby face vibes, how can that not be like a feel good baby face you want to support the sound that's just so [SPEAKER_01]: gracious, you know, I mean, you don't feel graciousness from a lot of babies.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really want to hammer this point home because I think it's so important in just how bad the baby face scene was kind of pre-hate, I'll be using launch.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the degree that people just kind of came to the realization that baby face has always had to be boring generic characters.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the heels, the reason the heels were more popular is because the heels were dynamic.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heels took action.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heels did things.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heels outsmarted the baby faces.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heels had friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: The heels were part of cool groups that wore matching outfits and had catchphrases and things like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the baby faces were all chumps.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was just such a [SPEAKER_00]: much for how American Wrestling was booked for so long and I think AW has really helped break the mold and now you're seeing not just baby this but new baby faces guys that haven't been around for for decades and been on TV forever and I think it is creating a lot more energy both in the buildings and when you're watching on television when you're seeing these new kind of heroes and that's what [SPEAKER_00]: You know, show business and entertainment is about building heroes and getting people, you know, emotionally invested in things, whether it's a movie or TV show or per wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think AWS just done such a great job.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, I think, hanging in pages, the perfect example of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But you also have people like Swerve and people like Will Osprey and people that, you know, there are different, there are very different than, than hangman, but provide similar kind of value in those, the guys that you're building around.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: It's a huge contrast to WWE.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a huge contrast to what people have come to expect from pro wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's something that's really different that can be done at a high level.

[SPEAKER_00]: You might we mentioned like these guys doing beauty and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We also talked about [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is Tony Con learned and kind of the changing atmosphere in the locker room and not bringing in guys who are mal-contents.

[SPEAKER_00]: MJF gave an interview with TV Insider a couple of days ago and kind of making their rounds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Someone that he got asked a question about, like, how would you describe working with Tony Con?

[SPEAKER_00]: And what do you think he's taken from his past experiences when it comes to running a W?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he gave this really interesting answer, which is I'm going to read the whole thing here, but he says, [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I would say Tony Conn is learn is you want people in your locker room that not only want to be there, but are worthy of being there.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've had a lot of guys in the past come in and think they're going to be king shit just because they had their time in the sun for a millisecond and other promotions.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not how it fucking works.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's called all the wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: all average wrestling, not all mediocre wrestling, not all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to show up cash-to-check and expect to be World Champion wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's all elite wrestling.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, everyone locker room is on the same page.

[SPEAKER_00]: We aren't coming here to cash-to-check.

[SPEAKER_00]: We aren't coming to give fifty percent.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're all giving a hundred and ten percent.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you think you're going to come into my company, and yes, I said my company, because I've been here since day one, and I'm the best professional wrestling in the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you think you're going to come into my company and barely put in work, you're out of your goddamn mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: you don't belong here.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want you here.

[SPEAKER_00]: So stay where you are and be miserable over there because you don't belong swimming in the ocean of sharks that is AEW.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're talking to the biggest shark of them all on MJF.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's clearly in character to a degree there, but I think there's a lot of truth in it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly a lot of experience, not just from Tony, but from MJF as a younger guy now became the locker room, which is like [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, if you want to come into this locker, you better have the right attitude because you're not going to, I don't think that shit's going to be tolerated anymore in a way that maybe it was when these guys were a little bit more naive, you know, five years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: Although it is interesting that MJF is now aligned in storyline with, again, the group that might be one of the people that is still [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we'll see one of those acts that might be the act of this for a little too good to do complete business and things like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see, but yeah, and you know, I agree with all of what he said.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a little bit where he's like, you know, you were touching on, you know, Russell's not being good enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think AWS, they've mostly been on the money with who they've signed, like from WWE in terms of talent.

[SPEAKER_01]: But again, like, [SPEAKER_01]: Miro, I think once he got off the weird video game introduction, his in-ring performances were, I thought, fantastic and A-dove.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he was great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Malachi Black, at his best, could be a decently valuable song.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't let him control too much of his storylines and promo spooky shit, but like the one I think is completely up his own ass.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like a lot of these guys that turned out to be flubs, if they had just [SPEAKER_01]: been willing to lose and been willing to put in one hundred percent.

[SPEAKER_01]: They would have been good science, which again, goes back to what I'm saying, which is, a sign can be great on paper, but if they're coming in at fifty percent, it's not worth it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't matter if they look good on paper, you have to try and do your best to make sure they're going to be that same person that you want to sign in your company.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there should be this mindset that when you come to AWS like [SPEAKER_01]: You better have your working shoes on because we're going to expose you if you don't keep up with the rest of us like you think this is a challenge.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's a strong message when you again, we talked about the court for like [SPEAKER_00]: If you're coming into AW and you're following, you want to be a big star, you want to main event a show.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, you're going to follow a wheel of spray match.

[SPEAKER_00]: So good luck.

[SPEAKER_00]: You better be on that level.

[SPEAKER_00]: And some guys have risen to that level.

[SPEAKER_00]: And other guys have not.

[SPEAKER_00]: and i think that's also when you're talking about who we're going to push who we're going to present what's the message of a w when that message is more younger uh...

stars and when you're pushing guys more in their prime it doesn't i think a strong message we're if yet you might be a big star you might have some tv uh...

exposure being on w w a and you might your s your name and s u search would pop up ahead of of some other people's [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're you're going to stand out in this company if you don't have your work and shoes on and you're not going to work hard and I think that's honestly that's [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of, I think if we're going to go back to like the Hertz syndicate, which I'm not like a conspiracy theorist in terms of like, oh, the Hertz syndicate, they don't want to do business.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think it's just a push.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see maybe that changes over time, but I'm not going to be as concerned about that as some other people, but I think part of the reason the Hertz syndicate, I've been getting some heat from fans is because from an in-ring perspective, the performances have been not up to power.

[SPEAKER_00]: And people are frustrated by that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the problem is, Shelton's singles performance is initially where there's some of the best work he's done since probably like his youth and people were really excited.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the tag stuff has just fallen flat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of it is, and again, how much is this, they don't know how to do it or how much they don't want to do it, they need to do a really tricky role, which is they're trying to be the dominant, physically dominant tag team champions.

[SPEAKER_01]: But ideally you want to do that in a way where you still have at least good, if not great matches, and your opponents come away looking solid in losing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mentioned the past Samoa Joe, I think, in two thousand four ring of honor did that better than anyone where he was a very dominant champion, but he was able to find that line where he worked matches in such a way where by the time he a match was over, you were like, [SPEAKER_01]: Joe's the better man, but that other wrestler is also great, and that was a fun match, and that other wrestler put a couple of scares into Joe, but I still come away going Joe to finally one that he was better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's a tough rule, because if you want to be the Rick Flair style champion, [SPEAKER_01]: You where you like get beat on for any percent of the match and then you cheat to win at the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot easier to have good matches and be champ but still make your opponents look good with you winning where [SPEAKER_01]: To be the Donna Hill channel, you have to accomplish these three things.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to come away from all your matches looking like you're just scary-ish shit, super dominant on-brays.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to try and have good matches and you have to make your opponents look at at least somewhat good in defeat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the problem with the hurts of the kid as a tag team is they accomplish only the first of those three things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And ideally you want them to do at least two of those, probably all three.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when I watch guys like jet speed work them and sound these angles and stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have not found that lot either.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't know if they not do they not find that line, which I will admit, again, is a real hard line to find to try and thread that needle or do they just not want to thread that needle?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's another, that's one of those unknowns.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, something else I want to play on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first, you mentioned Simone Jo.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do want to play this out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we can agree that the death writers have at least turned a corner in the sense of they have served their purpose as being big bad guys that [SPEAKER_00]: whoever beats them, which is most likely going to be hangman pages weekend, are going to feel like they've really truly accomplished something, not only by one of the world's title, but by finally getting the better of Moxley and taking the title off of him, which is all important stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they've done that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do want to point out, this is a very, very pro-Samojo podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that the her business, [SPEAKER_00]: Moxis group the deathwriters turned a corner as soon as Samoa Joe started getting involved.

[SPEAKER_00]: When Samoa Joe came in and the ops came in and they feeded with them where they won the trio's titles at that show in Boston, which I did happen to be at.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like that was a major turning point because it was the first time deathwriters kind of showed a little ass and it showed where [SPEAKER_00]: The end game was going to be for this angle, which as as monotonous as it's been as kind of annoying as the constant interference as Ben, I do think we've gone to a point where this is now going to be kind of viewed as successful angle, despite the fact that yeah, Moxley didn't have some some had some pretty bad main events and in paper views and things like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't necessarily super smooth, but I think at the end of the day, this thing has really turned around to the way that I didn't necessarily expect.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was very frustrating.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did a whole podcast episode earlier this year, just talking about how annoyed I was by the death fighters with Sarah from Trishon, Sarah, but I do think that they've gone to a much healthier point with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is a major part of, I think, why people feel good about AEW now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think one thing that's half held with that is just time because I feel like initially with the death writers why they were so disappointing is because they had such potential because people maybe forget now people of short memories how most of us were super excited in the initial weeks of the death writers and all like there's some people there's a contingent of fans out there that just hate John Moss the I think kind of rationally, but there is a contingent of people like that, but most people were like the [SPEAKER_01]: mocks beating Daniels in the way he did, you know, the plastic bag angle, all that stuff was shot, you know, it really, you know, was eye grabbing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the initial story beats they were trying to sell of the death writers is about John Moxley feels like AWS lost its way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's got to plan to change things.

[SPEAKER_01]: was a really interesting angle that plays into some reality and it was exciting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they did nothing with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It became it was very quickly revealed to be, again, another one of those, another example of A, W having a great initial idea and no follow up, no idea for what to do the next two months of [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was just boilerplate, heel run ends.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he keep doing these vague promos where things were used to change everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing about the product changed.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was the most plain humdrum heel faction on top run you could imagine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then he had the kind of crappy stuff with cop and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the thing that's changed is [SPEAKER_01]: We've now gone on long enough that we've gotten a lot of fans.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've forgotten and gotten over the missed potential of the star of the angle.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now we're just focusing on, well, what's it leading to?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to lead to it looks like I agree with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hang in getting a big satisfying win at the biggest show of the year.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have a nest distance from what we could have had that now we can kind of just celebrate what we're going to get from this, which is going to not be nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think part of it was also like the feud with cop in the kind of message that it sounded.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I wasn't, I was not a huge fan of Daniels and get into the title last year or in.

[SPEAKER_00]: As, as good as the match was at Wandley and it was nice moment, all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought it was reductive to, like, we've had the title now for almost a year around veteran establish wrestlers when there are a lot of other people on the roster that I think would make more sense of the champion.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that it seems like we're getting towards that finish with, with, with Moxie giving up the title to a younger wrestler.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's also things like this moxley group was spent off the back black pool combat club and the back pool combat club dates all over the back.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like legal being in the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just it's been going around for a long time, which is another factor.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's way to heavily on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think at the end of the day, it's going to do the job.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I want to point out to fold in again, I think something that's really important both in getting a W's momentum going again, and also kind of in contrast to WWE, it's biggest competitor, is two major weaknesses that we heard from day one of this company, which was, one was, the woman's division isn't very good, which was definitely the case when the company first started.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing was, there's not a lot of diversity on this roster, which was also definitely the case when the company first started.

[SPEAKER_00]: And two things are definitely true now, which is that I think the company has done a way better job finding, signing and developing and promoting people of different color on the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the women's division is also way better.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, the women are being allowed to be presented in a way that they're not really pretty being presented in WWE.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think those are two huge bonuses.

[SPEAKER_00]: We spent a lot of time talking about the main event picture and who the core four young guys are.

[SPEAKER_00]: But a major part of I think the reason [SPEAKER_00]: These paper views now feel so good and that these shows each week are getting such good reviews both dynamite and correlation is because the depth of the roster is much greater and that is a huge reason that is that the women's division is now a strong part of the show, a key part of the show, the Mercedes-Mona versus Tony Storm Matches, one of the biggest matches not all in.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the biggest matches really AW is going to produce all here, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: and you know the Tony Storm Orion may have Hollywood ending matches and a lot of people's opinion probably the best match a W's had this year.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's no longer this weakness, it's strength.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the same can be said for a lot of the diversity.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know people don't necessarily want you to white guys talk about diversity on the wrestling show, but it's definitely way different than it was on day one.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that AW deserves a lot of credit for getting both the aspects that were weaknesses and I think really turning them into strengths in recent years, weeks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even you talk about like the [SPEAKER_00]: you know, the whole, the whole arena Mexico show and how much of that challenge of just came across as an earnest embrace and celebration of the chilebrae in Mexican American wrestling and in a way that WWE just in its atmosphere which didn't, it did very similar, tried to do a similar show just a week earlier and it just came across as so sterilized and in fake [SPEAKER_00]: and how much love was in the AW show and I think that stuff does just go a long way and sending a really positive message out to the fan base and it makes everyone feel better about the company.

[SPEAKER_01]: First, I don't think there was few things I felt as, it was just this is going to be kind of sad that I've been more sad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Few more satisfying experiences I've had in the year of our Lord, twenty twenty five this year than seeing so many of the worst faith, most awful, gremlin, goblin people online.

[SPEAKER_01]: during grand slam Mexico being like, oh, God, why is Hangman kind of promo and Mexican to start, you know, Spanish to start the show?

[SPEAKER_01]: No one's gonna know that shit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why is there so many of these matches with no story and these wrestlers they won't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where's the video packers all that?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it does one of the best rating and success stories A, W has had in the last couple of years.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like fuck you.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was one of the most satisfying kind of, like a lot of times in life, you don't get people rebuffed in such a [SPEAKER_01]: Uncounterable, clear, you're wrong as that breaking game in, and I was so happy with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But talking about diversity, I think something Mercedes has done really, Mercedes's science done really good for A, W, is just allowing women to be focused a little more, at least on the paper views, if not TV, like there's this great thing from, [SPEAKER_01]: It was when, oh, I forget his name now, uh, uh, uh, African-American comedian.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it says awful things about trans people, um, shape hell.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dave should fell off course.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dave should fell, did you see that one hint to tell you exactly what it was?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he, you know, the hat fits you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get to wear that scarlet letter now, so he deserves it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but Dave should fall years ago, he got, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: I think like the Mark Twain Prize for Comedy and Neil Brennan, who was his co-creator of the Chapelle Show.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was one of the speakers, and this great little speech that's in story he tells, where he tells the story of when they were shopping around the Chapelle Show to different places.

[SPEAKER_01]: They went to HBO at this time.

[SPEAKER_01]: HBO had the Chris Rockshow on HBO, a talk show with Chris Rockhead.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Neil Brenn tells the story on stage where he goes, you know, HBO told us, he says, I shit, you know, this is the truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: They said, why would we give Dave's a publisher when we already have Chris Rock?

[SPEAKER_01]: And they cut the Chris Rock in the crowd upon hearing the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Chris Rock just looks so embarrassed, like I can't believe people on HBO said that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you'll burn has this great line where you'll see, back then, only one black community was allowed to be famous at a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now three can be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like the thing Mercedes is about A and W to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: It used to be like, you can only have like one good, really heavily pushed women's match on A and W paper view.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with Mercedes, now you get to.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like the, I mean, that's still, you know, we're talking about complete gender equality.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're still a long ways away.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's double.

[SPEAKER_01]: If nothing else, like that alone, it's almost like the Rousy thing with WWE, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where WWE did not just give start to shift away from the deva treatment of women's wrestling and start to push women more as serious wrestlers and give them a little more time out of the goodness of their hearts.

[SPEAKER_01]: They saw Ronda Rousy in the UFC prove that there was a market for that a lot of people wanted to spend money to see badass women fighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: They got the opportunity to sign her.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, well, now we have to change the way we do women's wrestling to justify.

[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of a similar way, signing as big a women star is Mercedes, kind of force them a W to have like two women's titles that both have to get some [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they have two story stars now in Tony and Mercedes that kind of demand a significant time of attention and it's kind of forced AW to do a little more with women.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I still feel like I said way early in the show.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still think the big two, they need to find a way to elevate a couple of people to have the women have their own big four.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Willow, Nightingale, she's been ready for a long time and they, I think they need to put their foot all the way in the water, they need to stop dipping their toe in, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so many other great women right now in the division like throw a stone, just pick one, whether it's stat land or whether it's, you know, Queen Almanada or [SPEAKER_01]: a million others, you know, just pick one and go with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting and I think that's true for I think just in general, the women's division just has a lot more depth to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're not that far removed from the days where like Saraya was brought in as a big signing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you look at this is easily the best of women's regression has been in eight of these existence.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would go as far as to say it's I think among the American promotions, it's the best woman's division in the world in terms of the depth and talent because you have Tony and Mercedes on top, which are your clear two top two stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you said, maybe you want to get that to a top four.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think once you kind of get it, we get away from [SPEAKER_00]: you know, the Mercedes Tony few, which is obviously both two names being very protected all setting up for this really big match.

[SPEAKER_00]: Once we're kind of over with that, we can start seeing Willow is, I think, obviously the next person in line, but they've done a good job with Megan Mayn, they've done a good job with Nina Shirakawa, at least a love stat later around.

[SPEAKER_00]: They just signed Fecla.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're seeing people like Queen Aminada get some more, some more run.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're seeing more stuff come together.

[SPEAKER_00]: They've signed some people.

[SPEAKER_00]: They develop some people.

[SPEAKER_00]: They are kind of introducing new people.

[SPEAKER_00]: it's it's a much more exciting time and and it ultimately like go back to just nineteen just twenty people would say all the women's division they need more matches woman need more time and [SPEAKER_00]: I just as as a as a on to my honest thought as a wrestling family so it was like I understand why people are advocating for this but I just these are these are almost always the worst matches on the shows the talent level isn't there that excuses there anymore the talent level is there I do think we're seeing more and more development [SPEAKER_00]: in a positive direction, even though there's still more steps that can be taken.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that also has helped the company a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the vibes are up because you no longer have.

[SPEAKER_00]: I talked about dead weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, there was a time where like the entire women's division almost felt like dead weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas like, oh, here comes the mandatory, nine thirty or nine twenty five eastern time women's match.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably going to be the worst match on the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: That has not been the case for a long time now, and I think that's overall reflected and helped the company get to another level from a from a vibe perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it is kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy when you look at it, but I completely understand like [SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes a lot of times in history, the women's matches have been not just an ADW, but like the women's matches and US wrestling have been the worst matches on the show and below the level, median level of the roster on a lot of companies, not always, but sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those things where [SPEAKER_01]: You never give them time.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never give them attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never give them ring experience and ring time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they don't approve and you don't have a robust roster of women to work with.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you go, well, we can't push them because they don't reach our level.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to give them no resources to improve and build fan bases and get better and reach that level.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I do a podcast about old ring of honor and something me and Matt Forrest in my course.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've seen so much is ring of honor was so ahead of the curve in so many aspects of wrestling, but one thing they were so retrograde on was how they treated women and how they treated a women's wrestling and they [SPEAKER_01]: we've documented how horrible they treated women in the first years of coming, and we've gotten to a stage where we're covering now, like five or years in, where women are treated more seriously than the coming, but they don't get to rest on every show, and it's one match, usually five minutes or less, in like the lowest prestige spawn in the cart, which is second from the bottom, you don't even get the opener.

[SPEAKER_01]: And guess what, women didn't really develop based on their experience in Ring of Honor, women's wrestling didn't grow in Ring of Honor, and when women's wrestling, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: be the group more of a fan base, our witch didn't get to capitalize on that, companies like Schimmer, which we've kind of had a partnership with our rich, eight, third lunch, you know, WWE, you know, took advantage of it, you know, and then for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: And mixed martial arts, again, with people like Gina Crono and Ronda Rousey, and it's one of those things where with stuff like that, it is kind of a, if you build it, they will come kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't, you can't just say, well, the women are never gonna get there, [SPEAKER_01]: You have to invest and go, this will pay dividends.

[SPEAKER_01]: One, it'll pay the moral dividend of, it's not good to malign half of the population and treat them as second class.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you just want to go from the Craven business thing, it's like, if we develop women and raise the standard, there are going to be more fans.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are plenty of people that watch women who have watched, even though they're in my yard.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are plenty of women that watch wrestling, even in the years where women were [SPEAKER_01]: way more maligned and wrestling and served wrongly than they are now and that they enjoyed it even though but you have to imagine there's always going to be more people that watch wrestling if there's someone that is talented that is entertaining that is pushed that looks like them that they can relate to on that level and so there's like a material benefit to just [SPEAKER_01]: trying to strengthen women's divisions, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And you get, there's just a lot of benefits, like from morally and business-wise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's one of those things where it's like, I have agreed at times when I've watched these shows where it's like when people are like, there should be four women such on this show.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's been years ago where I'd be like, well, that would greatly lower the quality of the show.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then the other half of my brain is like, [SPEAKER_01]: Well, how's this effort going to change if you don't, again, invest in these people, try and develop them.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, how much harder is it for women to get better at wrestling when they have so, like fewer opportunities than men, all like at all levels of the business?

[SPEAKER_01]: And granted, I will say, in my lifetime, there's been huge strides made, like huge.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I was a kid, women's divisions, if they existed were like, [SPEAKER_01]: One woman and the challenger of the day, and then a few years later as I got older, it was putting matches.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have progressed far from there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to not give credit and not say we haven't come a long way.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's been a long time coming specifically for a W because I mean, we talked about this, I talked about this all the time at the beginning of the company, which was like, when people would say criticize a woman's division and it'd be like, there's a shortage of talent available, especially when we're talking about like the early idea was this like, [SPEAKER_00]: Well, science, well, science, some green, independent wrestler, women's wrestlers will also have these better wrestlers coming from Japan and they will kind of be able to balance things out.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll have these, the veteran wrestlers and we'll get some of these American wrestlers over and that's how we're going to kind of piece this thing together.

[SPEAKER_00]: The pandemic happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you lose your veteran wrestlers from Japan with the exception of Shida who relocates to the United States and [SPEAKER_00]: It just kind of really delayed everything and eventually people became available.

[SPEAKER_00]: You got people over.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully, WWE didn't know what they had with Tony Storm.

[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't know what, you know, let Mercedes money walk and you got these kind of things to work with.

[SPEAKER_00]: It took a long time, but it's a feather, and I think Tony and everyone associated NAW's cap that you've gone to women's division to the degree that it where it is now, where you can have some really exciting matchups that are on the same level as the top matchups that the men are having, which is something that was just completely inconceivable when a company first started.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a major part of the positivity of this company.

[SPEAKER_00]: As we kind of wrap this up here, [SPEAKER_00]: people probably listen to this before all in, but obviously we have this this Adam Page versus John Rocksley match happening and my thoughts are they're going to do a match where like ten million people are going to run in and I think Kangman Page is going to go over.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the way they position this is they've kind of set up kind of every heel is kind of aligned with moxley's group in some way and the baby there's a bunch of baby faces on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hangman side so it's gonna be one after another guys run it out and do things eventually it's gonna come down tip to page beating John Oxley Which I think is the right decision.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's this idea that all will be great because anytime anytime there's a [SPEAKER_00]: There's a logical finish out there where a baby face would be getting really over.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's always that one person that's like, oh, but there'd be great sheets if that baby face doesn't win.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully, hopefully, I think that one of the things Tony has learned over these six years since we've discussed throughout this pod, things Tony has learned.

[SPEAKER_00]: One of them is, you don't always have tomorrow to do something.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have seen plenty of times where Tony has held off on delivering certain matchups to delivering certain results.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he waited and things have been derailed by injuries.

[SPEAKER_00]: People get suspended.

[SPEAKER_00]: People put in the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Guys cooling off, things just not working out.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's happened a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kenny Omega in Brian D'Amelson had that [SPEAKER_00]: Great, thirty minute draw and bit dancing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's dance is first match in the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, what a what a match.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what did everyone say after the draw?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, it's going to be great when these guys wrestle again.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happened?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can you make a missed a bunch of time with injuries and Brian Jails have them retired?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we never got that match.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now we could still get that down the line, but we never got it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, CM Punk, he had some big matches.

[SPEAKER_00]: He wrestled M.J.

[SPEAKER_00]: off.

[SPEAKER_00]: He wrestled John Moxley, wrestling hanging in page.

[SPEAKER_00]: He also didn't get the wrestle a lot of people that people thought he was going to wrestle largely because what happened, he met with the down and he quit the company.

[SPEAKER_00]: He got fired.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so like this, this, this, this, this, one of the lessons that I hope Tony has learned is that [SPEAKER_00]: There is a time to do things and you don't you often don't gain anything by waiting and in fact you put everything at tremendous risk so that is my this it take on that match obviously we'll see how things play out on the show but what are your thoughts kind of on that made event.

[SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Hangman has to win this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of people are coming this from the angle of, you know, you don't want to miss the moment of Hangman.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want him to come up short after he's got such momentum and you've really made this feel like it's a big moment for him to kind of finish climb back to the top of the mountain again after all this time.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a [SPEAKER_01]: Another reason, and you know, I talked about all the things, you know, the ways I wish A, W would be less like W, but there are things you can also, you know, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one I think is a lesson that W, W, knew very early on and they've kind of deviated now with multiple nights of WrestleMania, which, but which is your biggest show there that's potentially getting your biggest paper view audience of the year.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to leave the fans go happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want that to be a cathartic moment in the main event.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want people to feel like they've seen the culmination of something not the start of science going to be coming out lasting for for another six months.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you want that, you can have some of those on the undercard.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think like all in if it's the, you know, they're trying to make this the biggest show of their big show of the year annually.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they've been doing a fairly good job of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you want to have at the end of those years [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the end of those shows feel good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone goes home happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: The good guy won a big monumental thing happen endings.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Tony's store, if she beats Mercedes, I don't think it's got a rise to that level.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I just, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, vibes isn't overused word these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the vibes would be rude.

[SPEAKER_01]: No matter what they did, you know, if there was like a big term, you know, a sort of constant.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's no way, there's no fantasy bookway I can do it in my head that would not leave the vibes feeling really bad if you ended all in in front, like whatever, twenty three, twenty five thousand people on a bummer John Moxley wins again ending.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's no way, I've tried as an intellectual exercise of like, is there a fantasy booking way I can do it where I could make myself think, that'd be okay, the fans would accept that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are ways that are better than other ways, but there's no way where I go, that's that would work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I just don't see it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know some people disagree.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, I know some people think, well, there is a way you could do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I kind of feel like it would be an undisputable [SPEAKER_01]: stepping on a rake if Hangman doesn't win this at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the argument would be that Tony has some like Gato circa, two thousand, seventeen grand idea where it's going to be so big when Hangman eventually wins a title in like a year from now and this is all just a step on to that journey.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I just don't see that really any upside to him losing and I see like a huge downside for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: if he if he if he if he if he does lose as opposed to like what's the risk like what there's zero risk of him when it like when he wins what what's the worst thing that could possibly happen like [SPEAKER_00]: He's not a good champion.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can move tight on to somebody else if that's the case.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just seems unlikely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it just, this is your big show.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want to send the home fans home happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want to send the fans home happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, it's something that WWE doesn't always do.

[SPEAKER_00]: They always, they sometimes do weird finishes and they love their heat.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's something that would be kind of also different to really, again, this is a company that listens to his fans and gives them what they want, included.

[SPEAKER_00]: They want the hangman and they want him now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think the one argument people have, or the reason at least why they've doubted that it could happen is because it definitely seemed like one of the big ideas was Darby's gonna climb Everest and when he comes back, he's gonna get revenge on Mox and he's gonna defeat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they've even, they had, you know, in the past Mox, he would kind of allude to it where like, you know, he, he cut some GoPro where he allude to like, to beat me, you're gonna need some of the client's mountains.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it was something where he, he was clearly hinting at the idea that the one guy that could beat him was Darby Allen.

[SPEAKER_01]: plans change you know sometimes and and I think I'm not saying you shouldn't push Darby Allen or shouldn't have a Darby Allen mocks feud or that that even that initial idea wasn't good but times have changed and I think right now if you try to have Darby win [SPEAKER_01]: I think too many fans would resent Darby for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be more like the last twenty years of WWE book.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that'd be like, we insist on something, even though the fans clearly have kind of want something a little bit more, not that they hate Darby, but some of those things where I think you could get some of those hands to start hating, resenting Darby, because now you're going to start pitting Darby fans against Eggman fans and Eggman fans of which I'm one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not one of the most militant ones, but they are a [SPEAKER_01]: an honorary bunch that are very protective of their special little guy and they're um you know it would not be good like it wouldn't be good for Darby I guess I'm Darby I if someone if Tony came out to me like we're gonna stick with the plan we're gonna have we're gonna you know hang as to lose and you're gonna win I'd be like I don't want this won't be good for me like don't don't do this please he's gonna be uh he's gonna be rainy studio coming out as number thirty in the world it was really wants to boo Darby Allen but [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if he's not who they want.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing I wanted to say is you mentioned like, you know, the one thing that you could guess that Gato style booking of a guy loses big and that sets up like the even bigger rematch down the line.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when you could say WWE kind of, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: lucked into it, or maybe, you know, where a lot of us, me, and especially thought it was a horrible idea to have gold against momentum and have Cody loose to Roman, WrestleMania.

[SPEAKER_01]: But through like a weird series, like almost like a rub Goldberg lifestyle machine of different consequences, the second year, it did feel bigger when Cody won the second year.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that would work for hanging, but more than that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they already have the Gato style guy, Suffrake, Babyface suffers heartbreaking loss and a set for a win the next year.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just started to double or nothing because I think a lot of us thought Osprey was going to be Hangman and beat the guy in Hangman's position right now all in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they did that whole thing where Hank, it will Osprey was so confident going in, he loses, he loses clean, he doesn't turn heel, he's clearly heartbroken.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now it feels like they're kind of sitting at with the step of Swerve and Osprey if they lose, they can't challenge for the World Health for a year.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what's going to be one year from all ends?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be all in again in the back end, Wembley.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, to me, it feels like we're on a path now.

[SPEAKER_01]: of the time for Osprey will be him finally winning the world title, as soon as that ban expires in Wembley all in twenty twenty six, which again, that is great gate of style.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're on the road to that, just with a different wrestler.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's with that match.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's stipulation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's I think it's just like even even if they don't do it, even if Osprey and Swerve win, it's a great idea for a stipulation because it makes people believe [SPEAKER_00]: that they are going to potentially lose because it's such a good stipulation that, because people can see that vision, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that they did that with Cody and they stuck to it until he laughed, he does give them some credibility of like, if we do this stipulation, not only could it come true, we will stick to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's, and that's really key, because you can, everyone can see their vision, the vision, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be Osprey and Swarve are going to be super mad at each other for costume themselves, specifically Swarve, mad at Osprey for putting that on the line.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then they probably like meet in the finals of the Owen next year with the first time they could challenge for the title in the year on the line.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can, whoever is the champion time, it doesn't, maybe it's still hanging, man, maybe it's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a real opportunity because obviously like I think if you're plotting out your World Championship reigns, I think it has to be like you said those four guys that we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's gotta be hanging man.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's gotta be sort of it's gotta be all spring.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's gotta be MJF.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's probably not a lot of room for anybody else over the next few years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Unless you want to do another nostalgia run with the guy who's in his four years, which I would not do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it doesn't mean you don't cycle in other guys to work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those guys just, this isn't going to be all nineties all Japan, where it's the same four guys working each other for a decade.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have all this great roster and clean up veteran, really big time stars like Omega, you know, that should cycle in and work matches and keep them busy, but the thought should always be the [SPEAKER_01]: The five our next five years of the company ideally if everything goes right is these guys like this is the word this is the meat of their career right now and everything should be first priority should be how do we serve them and then everything else is priority to [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's that's good booking.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, so also it helps you avoid that TNA did.

[SPEAKER_00]: The damaging TNA booking, which is like you said, you bring in somebody and then the company gets built around that new fresh new thing and you kind of forget about the home growth started that is, you know, synonymous with your brand and also isn't probably just looking for the next to kill some time before they can go back to WWE, which is something that TNA did, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Keeping that mindset that the company is built around these four guys, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: What's the saying?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hangman page is the [SPEAKER_00]: main character of a w, and that needs to always be at the forefront.

[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't always have to be hanging on page, but it has to be the guys that you feel like are the key building blocks of your company.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I understand agree with what you're saying about [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I've been consistent about saying it's just like a thing I would like to see a W do that WWE does is WWE does a really great job marketing and presenting it's absolute top guys like Cody Rhodes like Roman rights as these like huge legendary figures [SPEAKER_00]: on each show.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I enjoy the Eglaterian approach that AEW presents.

[SPEAKER_00]: We just get to see a lot of different people and a lot of unique styles and different guys get to do different things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's something to be said for, especially in the wrestling business, having these big individual stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that takes a really consistent renewed [SPEAKER_00]: message that comes across and you're booking in your presentation to these stars that AW hasn't always hit necessarily like there was a lot of criticism hangman pages first World title run that he wasn't on TV enough [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's about, again, having that follow up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, definitely sometimes they've gone way too far in a lot of times, way too far in the opposite direction where they focus on certain couple people as the top stars to the point where everyone else seems like nothing in comparison and you see them so much, sometimes less nowadays because so many of these big games just have very low date contracts, but you know, there's been the past where it was like, [SPEAKER_01]: You saw them so much and they were talked about so much during so many segments.

[SPEAKER_01]: You were sick of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: But on the other end of that, WWE has never had a problem with you not knowing who that one or two guys stand above everyone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've rarely had a problem with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they've always made sure you know who you're supposed to see as the top guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they've lavished attention and time, you know, on them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that is something that AW [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I wouldn't want them to go full blown as far as WWE often goes, but there should be an answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: There should be, when you ask fans who are the top, you know, like who are the big four, who are the top two, who's the biggest star, most fans should have similar answers.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want people to have, even if they don't, that's not necessarily their absolute favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: There should be this vibe of, I know who are the top people.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know who are on that top tier.

[SPEAKER_01]: There should be a top tier.

[SPEAKER_01]: It shouldn't be, and there have been times that any WF feels like there's a tier of fifteen and twenty guys that kind of are all around the same level and they take turns on the main events.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think this year they've been better at.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like there's a nice group of four or five on the men.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a group of two women where it feels like [SPEAKER_01]: This is the top tier and I think you reap a lot of benefits from having a more firm hierarchy and wrestling off.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are our main advantage.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are our upper midcards.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are our midcarders.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then when those people like shift and move up, it feels like a bigger deal because you've been a little more rigid about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're going to ramp things up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Trevor, you got anything to apply?

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, just through the years on my podcast, well, with the great Matt Fullerstein, uh, THROH is how we spell through, so that way, if you want to search for it, if you search for it the other way, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: You might get, I think there's an old Cany Rogers song called through the years, but if you spell it our way, all you will get is results about our podcast and apparently there is a Pokemon named THROH.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that to us.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing this podcast, but um, it's a, [SPEAKER_01]: best thing I do, it's a podcast about the early days of our way, which we've been doing it for over eight years.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got like over a hundred and forty something episodes.

[SPEAKER_01]: We did like a six hour Brian Danielson special, because he's our special little guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, just just that Trevor Daym on Twitter.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also on Blue Sky, search for that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'll find me easily.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's that's everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to thank Trevor for joining the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to thank all our listeners for tuning in and I'll talk to you all again after a while.