We talked about a lot of artifacts and buildings, temples, pyramids, and other structures here on Earth ancients.

But I became aware of what it's known as the Lead Cotises probably about five years ago, and I had invited David Elkinson, who wrote the book on the topic called Discovering the Lead Curtises a few years ago, but he rebuffed me and said, no, I can't have you.

I can't have I can't be on the program because I have too much information that I need to sort out and THEO is now not up to date.

So I said, okay, we'll wait for you to come up with more data, and here we are.

The data has been completed.

And it's funny because they these are these interesting plates that we're going to learn about today that were found in Jordan in the Middle East in a cave system, and they brought so much controversy because the Church got upset immediately and said they were forgeries.

The Jordanian government, the Egyptian government, the Israeli government all in it almost acquire like fashion, said this is fake.

What are you doing?

And a number of people, including David and his wife Jennifer, were able to get scientific evaluations done of these seventy plates which make up these books, and what we're going to hear about today is what they discovered.

Hey, this is Cliff, your host of Earth Ancients, and what we're talking about is is known as the Jordan led Cotises.

And I've been wanting to get this out for a while because not only is it significant, it's about as as significant as its Dead Sea Scrolls.

Because when the Dead Sea Scrolls came out now almost seventy years ago, they were immediately dismissed.

They were immediately thought of as forgeries, and it turns out that they're not.

And it's one of those things when you're dealing with organizations and institutions where change is really slow, and we talk about this all the time with archaeology.

New discoveries will come up, new people will have new thought, and they'll be rejected and it's like, hey, if you're not part of the status quo, then don't say anything, which is kind of sad because it doesn't really open the door to a new thought.

And this is the big problem with organized academic science and study is that it takes time.

It took fifty years for us too or people to adopt the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I think we're looking at the same kind of a deal here with the Jordan Codices.

Now there's a lot of interesting aspects of it.

There's unusual symbology on these tablets, on these codices, and we're going to hear about the analysis today of the what technology tells us about these unusual codices.

But the message within the manuscript I thought was fascinating, which is, according to these coteses Jesus Christ.

And by the way, the scripture the writing is what's known as Paleo Hebrew.

Paleo Hebrew goes as far back as five hundred BC, excuse me, a thousand BC, and way before Christ.

And what apparently is happening is that there's a rebellion among the people during Christ's time and including his followers.

And what we get is that Christ or Jesus of Nazarene, is not founding a new religion, but restoring an ancient tradition from the time of King David a thousand years before his birth.

And this is what we get.

We get passages in this codis and this is you know again, because there's no paper trail, because there's no other documents that hint at these codises.

This is very upsetting to the church.

They don't want anybody saying that there's other scriptures, there's other data.

I mean, I would say, why not.

I am not a church going person.

I never have been.

My belief is in personal spirituality.

And if you want to take up the story of Jesus Christ or marry or or the Disciples or Moses or whatever, fine, fine, But don't I mean for me, having somebody interpret the Bible, having somebody interpret the scriptures or sacred Tora or whatever.

That's just buying into someone else's feelings and philosophy.

And it can help.

I guess.

I guess I should be I should be so hard.

It can help open the door and help with your knowledge of the scriptures.

But I think people tend to fall over themselves and praise the pastor praise the priest, praise the rabbi for extoring, for providing information that they didn't understand.

So there you go.

I'm always very careful.

I try to be careful not to upset or offend anybody, but I'm not.

I never have.

But I was forced to go to church and I hated it.

I think I told the story.

I think I was in third or fourth grade and the Sunday school teachers is telling talking about the an aspect of the Bible, and I think I blurted out, well, how do you know that's true?

You know?

I mean.

The other thing about this the Jordan Cotises is that it has, you know, passages from Christ.

We don't have a great deal of information.

And for me personally, I've always thought that Christ was made up because the Church fathers heavily edited the known Bible, even removing whole sections.

We know the Book of Enoch was removed.

And if you ever read the Book of Enoch, and I'd strongly urge you to do so.

It's very spiritual, it's very esoteric and even pagan like in many ways, trusting your instincts, trusting your intuition.

So for and so get a copy of the Book of Enoch because it's fascinating.

So today's program is Discovering the Lead Cotises and my guest is David Elkington.

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A few years ago, I found a book called Discovering the Lead Cotises, the Book of Seven Seals and the Secret Teachings of Jesus, and it turned out that it was a book written by David Elkinton and his wife Jennifer.

And we had David on a few years ago talking about another book he wrote on acoustics, and at the time David says, I can't talk about this, I just cannot reveal the data.

And I said to him, well, we're going to have to have you back then because this is too hot not to discuss.

And so here we are today with David back to discuss this, and we have some significant news to discuss and updates on everything about these codises that is actually it is very revelation based material.

So David, welcome back to Earth Ancient's great to see you.

Hi, Clip, It's nice to be here.

It's good to see you too.

We want to start from the beginning to get our listeners some background.

These are not casual artifacts.

These are very very significant, not only from a religious standpoint, but just from a archival point of view to know where if these what the material in the Curtises reveals is an important part of not only a religious history, but also extends things like the ancient scrolls in the Bible itself.

So let's go back to the beginning.

These were found.

These courtises are metal, and they were found in the hills of Jordan.

Talk a little bit about the circumstances that you understand of their finding.

Yeah, we first encountered them via a better win friend of ours.

It's really a better win Arab called Hassan in late two thousand and seven, and we originally received an email via our journalist frend with some very indistinct attachments two thousand and seven.

You know, in that period when you sent photographs by email, they were very grainy, and you know, you thought, oh, these are a bit dodgy.

And when I saw them, that's precisely what I thought, because I looked at them and they were fascinating and beautiful, but they were brown and they had writing on them, and I said, this is these are leather, are they And the journalist said, no, no, they're not leather.

They're lead.

And I thought, that's really extraordinary.

I'd never seen lead in that kind of condition.

It just struck me as being very strange, and a close perspection of the lettering real I realized it was very It was very much an ancient Phoenician Canaanite text.

So you know, we thought, right, okay, we're going to we're going to get into this because the journalists came back from a trip to Israel to see how san and came back with some pretty astonishing images that convinced me we had something very big here.

And then Jennifer and I ourselves traveled out to Israel and to Jordan to see the codices and to see the site where they came from, or one of the sites where they come from, and we realized this was really really significant.

Let me ask you real quickly.

So they were found between two thousand and five and two thousand and seven by a farmer in this cave, and he that suggests that they were revealed because of a heavy rain.

Yeah, that the story given us.

Now you have to kind of take that slightly with a pitcher of salt, because Bedowin will sometimes make up these stories of, you know, these things being found.

But having been in the valley, we largely could see that he was absolutely he was spot on.

He was right, because you could see that the valley was such that if there was a heavy rainstorm, it would have washed away all the top soil, right, And they were revealed, as he said in his own words, plug the rock with an X on it.

Now.

I don't know if you've seen Raises the Lost Arc, but Indiana Jones stated to his class, almost invariably X never marks the spot.

Right.

When I met the Indiana Jones Robert Watts some years later, I said to him, you were completely wrong.

In our case.

It did because when they unfoiled the plug and looked in, they saw, to use the words of Howard Carter, the discoverer of Toutencummen's tomb, wonderful things, you know, and papsite is immense.

I mean, I'm not talking here about a very small cave.

I'm talking about a complete underground city that goes on for a very very long way.

I'm talking about here, three or four kilometers.

Oh, this is the first I've heard of this.

You don't describe a intricate system in the book.

No, I'm we're rewriting work because the book you've got there was actually censored by the publisher on the orders of the church here in UK, and savagely cut in very large part.

Frankly, what's left of the manuscript in that published version is dreadful, and it has literally no information at all.

The whole thing was sabotaged.

And I'm afraid to say, as you're reading Jennifer's book, that's been the story all the way along.

But you know, very threatening.

It's very threatening to the church, number one, especially if it's revisionist history.

That's never going to be a good sign.

But getting back to the curtises, are there other examples?

Because this is seventy small lead plated books.

I mean, I don't recollect any other historical documents being created in that fashion.

Note these are the first books.

These are the first ever books, and this is what marks them out is they're made of impure lead.

And what you have in terms of the state of the lead is when we handled some of them, they are literally falling to pieces.

They are very, very very fragile, some of them.

Now, if you've ever seen lead in that kind of condition, please tell me, because our corrosion specialist, Matthew Hood took this to the British Ministry of Defense and spoke to a load of experts nobody had ever seen led in that condition.

And his overall analysis, which we are about to launch on the YouTube page the Jordan Codices.

He states in the presentation of the peer review paper which we gave in the Houses of Parliament in London, England on the twenty first November last year.

He states, in tandem with the peer review paper's findings on an atomic level, that the corrosion definitely dates them to two thousand years ago, and that there is no way on God's Earth that these things could have been faked.

Now we've been accused of faking these things up.

They have been accused of being fakes.

But one question that has never been answered by anybody detracting from this discovery is if they're fakes, what are they fakes of?

So on top of that, we have the first ever books that they come in the form of the codex, which comes from the Latin cordex, which is basically referencing the bark of a tree, because the bark would be stripped and things will be written on the interior, and then plates of these things will be piled on top of each other, and then somebody came up with the innovation of actually sewing holes on the side and connecting them by wire, and this is what you have with the lead codices.

They have been bound very crudely with lead wire, which we know from scientific analysis, has been hardened over an open fire because they contain carbon in them, which obviously comes from charcoal.

So it's the binding wires are much stronger than the plates of metal they bind, and necessarily so.

Now some of the books are sealed, some of them are not sealed, and they were found in caves in northern Jordan, in a very very deep valley, a remarkably beautiful place called the Valley of the Skull.

And if you look at the image which I will forward to you shortly, you will see why it's called the Value of the Skull.

It's really very, very haunting.

It's like something out of a medieval illumination stroke the Indiana Jones.

And the valley goes deeper and deeper and deeper, it becomes a gorge.

And these things are, you know, in caves, to be found all around, and they are simply astonishing.

But here's the best bit.

This valley site is not far from the Sea of Galilee, okay.

And if you go to the Bible, you go to the Gospels quite regularly it says that Jesus crossed the Jordan and this is exactly where the site is.

Up in the north country now.

Interestingly enough, John Marco Allegro, one of the very first translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls, worked on the only scroll that itself was made of metal, called the Copper Scroll, and in it it describes the treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem.

Twenty years Allegro and others tried to search for this tre and the conclusion was that it had actually been stolen by the Romans or hidden away and never to be found again.

But one telling factor that Allegro gives us in his book on the Deadsy Scrolls, he says, the copper scroll itself says that the caves wherein the treasure lies are north of the city of Pella, the precise precise description of where our cave site is.

So we're looking at something here which is very truly profound.

We're looking at a fully or what was a fully intact site of the very first Christians, the Nassaureans, otherwise known as the Scenes, where they created these books, and also, but to a lesser and much lesser degree, they created also little metal scrolls.

Let me make the distinction here.

The Jewish religion uses the scroll.

The top ros Grohl is famous the world over.

It contains the words of Moses.

The early Christians used the form of the book the codex.

Therefore we have the site of the first Christians.

And there's much more evidence.

Besides.

Please speculate, David on the cave system, because I've seen pictures.

Was it used as a burial, was its as a synagogue?

Was it used as a meeting place?

Why was it found?

Why were the courtises found there?

Well, again, it correlates with what the New Testament and the non canonical writings tell us.

It also correlates with what some of the books of the Old Testament tell us, precisely, the Books of Jeremiah and the Books of Daniel.

In Daniel it states quite explicitly, the Angel says to Daniel, Daniel, seal up these books, put them in the cave until the end of time.

This is extraordinary.

So what we have here is an extraordinary site.

And Hassan told us will always remember the conversation that when he and his friends from the Jordanian side of things went into the cave system, there were bodies, fully intact, mummified bodies wearing all of the temple regalia.

The Jerusalem Temple regalia still on their bodies.

So they had been stealed into the cave and they had died with their sacred treasures.

I'm sorry there, see these are priests from the old world, yes I am.

I'm not suggesting it from the description Hassan gave us.

We know that to be the case because the same directions are in Josephu's books The Antiquities of the Jews, which was written in the first century AD by Josepha, who became the adopted son of the Emperor Vespasian when he turned against his own people and joined the Remmens.

So we have very specific explicit details.

Interesting now, the cotises have symbology, and one of them has what appears to be a face of a man, and I believe it was you or maybe somebody else has suggested this is the face of Jesus of Nazarene.

Are we has that been verified or are we guessing that that is who it is.

It's been verified by a couple of scholars here in the UK, leading world scholars.

And if you look at the iconography of the small metal book upon which the portrait appears on the cover, it has four more seals top and bottom three on the left hand side and seven seals down the right hand side side.

We open it, you go to the Book of Revelation, chapter five.

Jesus is to be seen on the divine throne in heaven opening a small seven sealed book, and on the interior of the book are three of the most dramatic faces you could ever possibly wish to see.

We were stunned when we saw them.

It took us a while to get verification of what they could possibly be, because we simply weren't expecting it.

We came back and we talked to a number of scholars here who also had no doubts about the authenticity and antiquity of the codices.

We were allowed to bring one back by the Jordanians in twenty eleven.

We took it to a major biblical conference at Oxford University, where it was handled by some of the world's top biblical scholars, who assured us there was no way these things could have been in fact.

Well even my other question is that were they able to find references of this metal sculpture of what they think is Christ?

Is there are other examples of it?

They?

Yeah, there are.

I mean, you know, if you look at the face itself on the book, it's actually encapsulated in a halo or a nimbus.

Is that what there is?

Okay?

Yeah, Now that basically denotes that he is now separate from the world.

He is now holy in his own person, and he is therefore but I mean become separate from the mundane.

So it means that he's gone into the holy place and he has come out, as the Book of Hebrews says, as the great Angel.

He is the Angel of the Lord, he is the Messiah, he is the one who is due to come and knew the cow Odd at the end of the jubilee period.

And underneath it, in the handwriting that is on that text, we have him to being described as the Bridegooan.

So there's much more that I could talk about, but obviously, you know, this is such a wide subject.

We've mostly for the past fourteen years kept a very low profile whilst the atomic research on the state of the lead has continued.

And that's why you know, in the face of the onslaught that you know that these things are fake.

We felt we had no option but to go down the purely scientific route, and that's why we announced in Parliament this peer review paper that states that they are not of modern origin.

And then when we did the presentation in Parliament, our corrosion expert states quite explicitly, as you'll see in the film, that they are two thousand years old.

And I think that's pretty that's pretty staggering really when you consider that.

We've also got footage again on the YouTube channel the jordan Codices of the interior of the cave system that was taken by some of the Jordanians a couple of years ago, and it shows artifacts intact and for the benefit of your audience, if you're patient and wait to the end, you will see one of the many tomb chambers absolutely loaded with solid gold artifacts.

Oh my god, wow.

Yep, we're talking about the treasure of the Champel of Jerusalem.

Here, we're talking about, you know, a massive, massive treasure.

There are books here in solid gold, there are statues in solid gold.

There's all kinds of all manner of things, and yet we've been accused of faking these things.

And it's tragic because we need to preserve the site, we need to get archaeologists in there, and we need to start under standing what it's about.

We need to understand the lives of these people, the context of these things, and it's an opportunity to bring communities together, both from within Jordan and from without, to work together towards a proper understanding of the origins of the three Great Bates, which of course today our Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Right, So are you saying that the site has not been properly excavated by archaeologists.

Not at all.

You're kidding me.

No, no, no, no.

They've attempted to suppress everything about these things.

And as I said, Jennifer tells this story in her books, so you can ask her about the whole.

Jennifer and Jennifer Elkington is David's wife.

I'm going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, David at Elkington discussing his book Discovering the Lead Cotises.

We'll be right back.

Discovering new artifacts is very exciting.

And there's a new museum in Cairo, of all places that has it just opened.

It's the Grand Egyptian Museum.

I've been waiting almost eight years for it to open and let me tell you, the statuary by itself is worth the price of admission.

We're talking over one hundred thousand artifacts on display from all parts of Egypt, and this is a fabulous museum.

Hey, this is Cliff, your host of Earth Ancients, and we have a few spaces left for this amazing tour.

We are gonna see the megalists.

We're gonna go to places that are off the beaten paths to see huge statuary, temples and even the pyramids.

For all the details, go to earth Ancients dot com forward slash tours and you will see not only the itinerary, but some of the fabulous hotels and other sites that we will visit.

This is not to be missed.

April twenty eight through May tenth, Come out and join me.

For more information, go to earth Ancients dot com forward slash tours.

My guess today is David Elkinton.

He wrote a book called The Lead Coatises twenty eleven.

Today we're talking about a update.

It's a documentary that you can see on the Earth Ancient's Facebook page.

I'll also make it available on Instagram.

But your best bet is to go to Earth Agents, either the group page or the public page and you will see it there under his banner.

One of the things that I understood was, now we've last week, we've gone all separate ways, but.

She is keeping her original birth made.

Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah.

So if you need to look her up, it's s O.

L.

I.

G.

N AC.

Okay, you can see her work.

It's quite fantastic to check the figure out.

Yeah.

I want to talk a little bit about the analysis that I found was pretty shocking, which is the writing isn't what they call Paleo Hebrew, and Paleo Hebrew goes back to five hundred BC.

I know, it goes back to fifteen hundred BC.

Well, it's extremely old.

Yeah, and.

It names Jesus, Christ, Peter, John, Paul, the Disciples.

But one of the things I wanted you to talk about is the manuscript suggests that Jesus was not finding or founding a new religion, but restoring ancient traditions from the time of King David, almost a thousand years before him.

Yeah.

I mean, if you look at the coteses and this is saying very nicely with my last comment, the codices themselves reference the Temple of Jerusalem, and if you look carefully at the symbolism the menorah, which is the sacred candlestick.

You look at the altar stones that you can see on it, and various bits of plant life.

You can see that they're not talking about the Temple of Jesus time, but about the Temple of Solomon himself, the first temple.

That's one thousand BC.

That's five hundred years after the invention of Palo Hebrew.

Okay, so what we're looking here is an original theology that it actually harks back to something very profound, and that therefore what we're looking at is Christianity as the restoration of that older faith, because Judaism as we know it today was formulated from out of the older theology in around about the first three or four centuries before Jesus.

Before that, we had the Hebrew faith.

Now, what's the difference between a Hebrew and a Jew.

Well, a Jew can be a Hebrew, but not all Hebrews are Jews, the reason being that the Hebrews represent all twelve tribes of Israel.

The Jews are the tribe of Judah.

The word Jew is a piece of Babylonian slang from the exile dating back to five eighty BC.

And when the Jeens got back as a tribe to Palestine to Judea in the aftermath of that exile, they decided to reform the old faith into what today we recognize as Judaism.

So Jesus comes along a couple of centuries later.

He's a member of we think of the Essene Nazarians, and the Nasarian word means guardian or protector.

And the question you have to ask is of what obviously of the teachings which go way way back.

So in essence we've got the key here to look at the source of all the Abrahamic faiths, which all emerged from that particular period.

MHM is the do the Curtises bring up questions about, say the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Bible any way or does it support it?

They bring up new ways of looking at old things.

And in fact, one of the Deadsya scrolls does mention the making of a small metal book with the face of its Holy One on the front.

Now, I've written about this extensively in my book on the.

Yet the authority is the The naysayers are saying it's a forgery or it's a fake.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Well, here's the point I would like to lay down the challenge actually having performed I mean numerous tests, innumerable tests in fact, at laboratories across the planet.

We've been working now for fourteen years with Professor Rogers Ware at the University of Surrey.

We've been working with Professor Finn Stuart at the University of Glasgow and Professor Silk Merkel at the Nobel Prize winning University team at the University of Vienna, and they've done numerous analyzes of alpha particles and patterns within the lead.

They've done an awful lot of hard work on this, and we're now working on further peer review papers because we may well have worked out how to finally age date metal, which will be a big breakthrough.

I hope that's going to come this year.

But here's the challenge.

Our naysayers, those who believe these things to be fakes, haven't actually answered the questions what are they fakes of?

Secondly, I'd like to say to them, where is your peer review paper, What metal have you tested and where have you tested it?

Where did you get that metal from, where did you get codices from to test that metal?

And why haven't you yet responded to our peer review paper that shows unequivocally that these are not modern.

These are in fact, very very ancient.

Yeah, that's a good call to action.

Why do you think the academics and perhaps the church is so threatened by your revelation.

Well, oddly enough, we've had a blessing from the late Pope Frances bless him, and he was very keen to see these objects out in the O And we've had no problems in that sense with the church.

It's the Protestant Church we've had a lot of problems with.

It's sad because if they've come to us and asked us as a team what the context of these things were, I would have turned around and said, actually, this is profoundly exciting for Christianity because this could and should lead to a renewal.

There's nothing in this that is a danger to Christianity.

The only danger is to those who want to suppress it, who want to just have their view of what it is without expanding that view.

Now that we've got documents that predate the Council of Nicia, that the Council that brought about the dogmas of the present day Christianity, predates them by three hundred years.

So we've got the original documentation.

We've got here a way to unify these faiths by asking, you know, good, simple but solid questions.

And we've got a way here of actually in a way melting away fundamentalism in the sunlight, because they've got the base elements here, we've got the foundation documents.

Is there a lot of description of Christ in the courtises, doing things, speaking or so forth.

You've got to first of all, see that the Codeses pre date the Gospels by probably seventy or eighty years.

At that time, you know, the way which the Messiah was heralded or announced was, you would have bibicult statements that would therefore almost serve as a curriculum vitae.

Here's why I'm qualified to do the job, you know.

And the whole idea of a narrative didn't really come along until the Latin Gospel writers, you know, working on the Roman level.

Hence the word romance.

So the Gospels are romances.

And if you go back to the early Church father Papias who lived around about eighty eighty to one hundred and forty, I think he says that when the Gospels were written very much.

The episodes were quite jumbled, and they wrote them as it just seemed to appear to them.

So what you've got really is a series of statements that have been stitched together by a narrative.

How accurate that narrative is, we don't know.

Okay, we do have a gospel, I believe, amongst the codices.

It's a very different looking document.

It's obviously one of the main codices, and there's a huge amount of text in it, and I'm working with a translator at the moment to obviously bring that out into the open and to transcribe and translate, and hopefully we'll have news on that, you know, this coming year.

But what they're revealing in themselves, in terms of what's written in them and in terms of what they're saying through their symbolism, is truly very remarkable.

And one thing I will say, by the way, we've also got a lead plate that shows the temper of Jerusalem and it shows the Crucifixion taking place, which is part of the seventy it's part of the overall from Jordan.

Yeah, so as part of what they picked up in the cave.

Oh yes, well, there are caves plural by the way that there are a cave multiple case, right.

I mean, this is a strange thing.

I'm not anti academic, and I can't blame them to a certain degree for taking the stance they have because nobody was expecting these things it came.

You know, they were completely blinded by it.

You know, I don't come from a tenured academic background in the sense that I have a place at a university where I talk and lecture.

I'm a completely independent researcher, so they were blindsided by me.

Although I have to say that before we made the announcement on the BBC in twenty eleven, we had a substantial team of people, including the late Professor Phillip Davies of Dead Sea Scrolls fame, and we spoke to a number of others as well who have backed us all the way.

So I can't blame them.

It's now time to put aside our differences and get working on excavating the sites and translating these things so that people can begin to join in the debate into Christian origins and get excited by what they've got to reveal.

Because I can tell you now they are profound they're really profound.

If you have somebody that was from this Dead Sea scroll research, Richard, wouldn't that help validate the authenticity of the plates.

We had all of that, and then the ferocity of the backlash against us was such that they withdrew back into the academic shadows because it was very harsh.

I mean, it was very very harsh.

It may you make it sound like they're accusing you of rewriting in biblical history or something.

Well it wasn't that.

I mean, they just accused the They accused me of knowing that these things were fake, when actually I think it was largely fear.

Perhaps, I don't know that.

The fact of the matter is we've done our duty, We've shown them to be authentic.

It's time to take the thing seriously, because I'd like to hand it over to academ so that we could actually, as I say, start looking at these things.

I mean, you know what gets me, Cliff, It's two thousand years since the death of Jesus on the cross, and he said he would come back, there'd be a second coming, and he's right there on the front cover of that book and on its interior.

He kept his word.

He's backed Christ is back.

We need now to grasp that and to run with it because our world needs that.

We've got a world in massive moral and spiritual breakdown and now got the means to revivify it, renew the church, and march forward hand in hand with our other fellow religions in a way in which we can extol Christ's own words, and that is love thy neighbor.

Yeah, yeah, I totally hear you there.

In one of the images that you post, and I think I've seen in a couple of other websites, the earlier plates or covers have what appears to be hieroglyphs on them, little notches and nicks and things like that.

Has somebody deciphered that?

Is that a code or is that more of a design element?

I think it's probably a design element.

There are coder within them, definitely, which again we're investigating.

But it's the use of Paleo Hebrew that struck me, because, of course, in Jesus' time we had the use of Aramaic, we had the beginnings of square form Hebrew, which was at least one hundred two hundred years old by the time of Jesus, and therefore the making books, and I thought, well, why paleo Hebrew?

Looking it up in you know, dictionaries and studying it and seeing that it dates back to fifteen sixteen hundred BC, and that it emerged from out of what we call proto Syinitic was fascinating.

And I realized that, you know, in the UK, if you get sent to the House of Lords as a peer, you are given letters patent, and they're all written in Latin.

Now there can't be many peers who could actually read that Latin, but the use of that kind of gives them a kind of a historical credibility.

And I wondered if it was the same with the books.

The use of Paleo Hebrew somehow was to lend them the aura of an even greater sanctity.

And then I realize, of course that we have the episode of Moses on the mountain, and of course I realized if there's something, well you could say divine about them, because they contain divine imagery, and the ones that contain that imagery are all sealed.

So this is imagery that in its day was not supposed to be seen.

If you looked at the seven branch Gnora and you saw it, it was punishable by death.

Because what we're talking about here is God's own furniture in his own house, which of course was the Temple of Jerusalem, and the cube at its center called the Holy of Holies, and only the high priest could go in there once a year on the day of Attonement, and then he would go in amidst clouds of frankincense and in a state of high purification, but also great fear, because if you read about the God of the Old Testament, he's a bit fearful, actually, you know, very very a thundering presence, you might say, you know, go back to the days of Solomon.

It seems less.

So there seems to be a much less hard side to God, because obviously Solomon is looking at the divine scheme from a less monotheistic way, you might say.

One of the things I've been reading about is the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

When they were found, they were summarily rejected as well.

But one of the serious problems, and this is what you're addressing in our interview today, is the fact that after they were found, it took fifty years for solid research to really begin to take into affect the meaning and the acceptance of these scrolls.

How can we cut the time factor on this.

What do we need to do so that we can get in our solid research going on this.

Get it right out there, get the films out on social media that we're releasing now and into the near future.

Get it right out Let's create discussion and debate.

Let's get people working on this.

Let's make it an open debate because it's an exciting one.

That's the best way to go around this.

We need academic help, We need the help from non specialists because non specialists might come up with observations that don't seem so obvious to the likes of people like myself and others.

You know, I agree anybody can take part in this, and everybody should because it's their cultural heritage as well.

So, you know, we need to get this right out there, and then we need to put pressure on the Jordaaning government to take this seriously.

We need to put pressure on aspects of the church to say, look, you know your own collapse.

The church is collapsing worldwide.

We've got something now with which to grow the church and give people something that's really exciting, A new moral perspective that we urgently need right now so that we can actually start to rebuild and walk forward into the future.

And we cannot continue to treat our history as if it's today's political football.

We need more debate on these things.

We do not need suppression.

Have the Curtis has been completely deciphered this point and is there a website who can go and we can read the actual information.

I've put a few bits up and I will be putting more up in the near future.

We are working on deciphering them.

They're an awful lot of codesies.

I mean, I'm talking here of hundreds of the things, and you know, this is much bigger than the Dead Sea scrolls.

We're looking here at text after text after text, and you know, for the past fourteen years, it's literally been Jennifer and myself and that's it.

There's been a few others that they've fallen by the wayside, and we now need to, you know, get another team together, get working on this, and get it, get it out there, share it with the world.

I've We've got surprising that you don't have more support.

You know, well, yeah, so do I I do agree with you there, but you know we're doing our best and trying to, you know, keep going.

But all I can say is that I'm glad I can hold my head up eye that the accusation these things are not modern means that.

Well.

Actually, to be honest with you, I'd really like to thank our opponents for actually claiming that I'm a genius.

One thing I'd like to state, quite honestly, is that I'm not.

But they think I had the genius of knowing how to fake up two thousand year old lead when it couldn't be done by Bold's greatest atomic laboratories.

If that sounds sarcastic, I don't mean it too, because actually the journey itself has given me pause and made me think too.

And I'm really grateful to these people for this because it actually made me a better person.

And isn't that what the Bible was about?

Yeah?

Exactly exactly.

We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, David Elkinton, discussing his book Discovering the Lead Courtesies.

We'll be right back.

My returning guest today is David Elkington coming to us from London, and he is the producer of a new documentary on the Jordanian led cotises that you can see on Earth Ancients, Go to Earth Ancients.

You'll see the banner and you can download or see it in the covert of your home and get the details on just what's been going on and the scientific testing that dates the codises to over two thousand years.

I want you to talk about some recent testing that was done at the University of Surrey Surrey excuse me, Ion Beams Center, and how that got started and what the results were we got.

Back from Jordan in twenty eleven, we launched the the Discovery onto the wide world.

Then we got condemned for it by various parties, and so we knew we'd already undertaken a number of research inquiries into the stage of the metal, but we needed to go a lot deeper into it because it had been confirmed that the lead was of Roman prominence.

But the detractors made the very fair point that it could also have been rebeaten lead, So we thought, right, okay, So I got in touch with the University of Sorry because I knew they had a major Metallurgical department there.

When I introduced ourselves to Professor web and we got going, I must admit I had high hopes we'd probably you know, finished the analysis within one or two years, but the criticism of us meant that we couldn't raise fun to get things done quickly.

The experiments expensive is the technology it is expensive, and we therefore had to wait in the queue.

We had to wait our time.

When there was time for the analysis to be under undertaken, Professor Webb was able to secure certain European grants on occasion to do that analysis.

And basically the initial analysis involved the detection of alpha wave particles coming out of the lead.

If there were alf away particles coming out, then it would have meant that the metal was modern.

And in twenty twelve the initial tests said they were modern.

There were alpha wave particles coming out of the cover of the codex that we had brought back with us from Jordan.

We were baffled by this because our corrosion analysis analyst, sorry Matthew, said there's no way it could be modern because the partit alone could not be faked and it had the corrosion elements on it.

And then we realized about a year or so later, thanks to Matthew and to Professor Web, that actually what had happened was that water had washed through the cave site and over the codex a trade a bit of limescale.

Now there's natural raid on gas or polonium in the sky that comes down with the rain and that contains alpha particles washing over the cover of the book, and that's why it seemed active.

And finally in twenty sixteen we actually took the step of opening the seals on the book and opening a book itself and doing further tests on the interior, and we found there were no alpha webs whatsoever.

The book was the real genuine McCoy.

So you can't use carbon dating to date metal.

What were the systems that were in play to give us a sense of the age.

Well, first of all, the decay of the alpha particles can be measured.

One thing that press Webb told me some time ago is that when you melt lead, you're kind of really setting its clock.

So from the moment you melt it, the helium in it begins to decay.

So the older it is, the more helium there will be.

So the theesis is now and we've been successful successfully and unsuccessfully trying to get enough sensitive machinery to measure the helium output.

Once we can actually measure accurately the helium output at the point of melting, then we will have a means of dating the metal itself, and that's what we're working on at the present time.

Okay, but I think I remember reading in that paper that there were two other testing devices or programs that you submitted the leads to, and I don't remember what the outcome was.

Well, we were looking at thorium.

We were looking thorium.

Yeah, the mullum testing as well as the helium testing, and obviously the alpha particle side of things as well.

It is very complex interior science of the metal itself, but it was more or less trying to ascertain the antiquity of the book through the elements that were within it, and that's what we're still working on.

So, for instance, on one of the samples of lead, the analysis which was from just over a year ago, suggested again a two thousand year old date for the book, but unfortunately the background radiation of the original lead or was also mingling with the results to give us twenty thousand to two hundred thousand year old date.

So we're trying to now narrow that down and I'm hoping that the next periody paper will succeed with that because we think there's a way around it.

But as per usual, we need to raise the funds to get the job done.

Right.

Does it the beetina denote great age?

Yes?

It does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Part of the controversy over the Jesus osuury that was found in Israel about twenty years ago, and it says inscribed in I think in Hebrew on the front of it it says Jesus son of Joseph or was that effect?

And you know it was recently declared to be fake because their patination had been obviously applied on microscopic analysis it was shown to be the case.

We haven't seen any of them on the lead books.

And in fact, what I'll do, I'll also send you a fake lead book made by Hassan and his friends.

It's beautiful.

They've done a really good job.

But the problem is is that the pagination they weren't able to make it uniform across the whole surface of the lead.

It's only to be seen around the lettering.

I'm sorry, where are they making a fake?

Because they wanted to see if these things could have been made, if they could have been faked.

Oh, they were trying to see if they could Okay, yeah, I mean an age is what you're saying.

Yeah.

In two thousand and nine I said to him, do you think you could fake these things up?

Oh?

Okay, I think he kind of you know, but also don't forget as well that Bedouin you know, Israeli Arabs.

They also like other you know, Arabs in Jordan and elsewhere.

If you find something, they like to kind of up the ante, but adding bits of their own so they can make more, you know.

And I can't blame them again.

I'd do the same if I were there.

You know.

The book's called Discovering the Lead Curtises, the Book of Seven Seals and the Secrets.

Can I can?

I just intersperse?

Sure?

And please don't buy that book.

It's awful.

It's it's a censored version of our original manuscript.

It's hard to get a hold of.

I mean this book I have, I've had it for over a year.

I mean it's from a library, so there must not be many out there.

I had to get a use I had to go to use bookstore.

Fortunately there are less than a thousand because we the company went bankrupt after they published it, and we managed to seize hold of a lot of them.

But well, you know, if anybody wants to read a really good book, it's the book that came up with that.

It's the academic text.

If you can get a hold of a copy, it's called the Case for the Jordan Codices.

Or is it actual?

Is it a university paper or.

It's a series of academic papers in the form of a book published by twenty fourteen by Professor Phillip Davies, myself, doctor Keith hen Jennifer, Margaret Barker, and a forward written by Jean Claude Brigade.

But I think we asked some We have something even better, David.

We have this video that you're going to send to me, that you have sent to me and those of you listening.

This is David's recent review of the testing as well as latest information in a video that I will place throughout the social media.

Go to Earth Ancients, look for the link, look for the picture of David and the banner for the week, and I'll have the video link next to that, So there you go anywhere we have on Instagram, Facebook, on the Earth Ancient's website, it'll be everywhere.

So I think that what you say, that's better.

That's the best way to go is to.

Show absolutely and if they want to visit, if your viewers want to visit the YouTube channel which is the Jordan hashtags the Jordan Codices, they can also go to the led Codices dot com website.

And for those who are really interested in the science, there is also another website we've set up called the Newman Society.

I will send you the details so you can forward it to your your viewers.

But you know, this is progressing and we're we've got a lot to announce because there's some pretty sensational stuff in the Codsese.

Give us an update, David as to where you're going and what we can look forward to.

Let's just say twenty twenty six, Well that's to this year.

I'm hoping that Jennifer and I will get our books published by mainstream publishers this year.

I've written the book on the context, translation, and history of the Codices, putting everything back into the proper biblical context.

Now that they've been discovered.

Jennifer has written a wonderful two volume of books on the everyday adventure of what happened to us, who did what to us, and who said what to whom?

And it's very spicy, very juicy, and I think it will tell a very very remarkable story to an audience who will not be able to put it down.

I think, just to interrupt you for a minute, you have spoken to me that you've had your life threatened a couple of times.

Yes, yeah, that's I mean, is that running you off the road or is it more serious?

It's more serious that.

To be honest with you, Cliff, I find it exhilarating.

Guy, buddy, come by, now, Well, why.

Somebody wants to kill me if these things are fake?

Yeah?

Well, I guess you could put it in that context.

But you know, there's been a lot of people, not a lot, but there's been a handful of people in the alternative research field that have been put away because of their the threat to certain organizations.

I can name a handful.

Well, I'm not I would say I'm kind of I've got a foot in both camps, alternative and orthodox, because you know, I'm left handed dyslexic, irish, I see things.

You know, I've got a big sense of humor, which also helps as well.

Yeah with you.

You know, I don't want to make anything of this because it's the way humans act.

I mean, you know, coming big here.

I want to share it with even with those people, because when they realize what it is we've got and it's going to need to renewal, they'll become a part of this too, I'm sure, and I wish them, yes, because this is about the renewal of the spirit in modern human society.

Because Jesus said he would come back.

He's back.

Now that's the word out there real quickly.

Before I let you go, do you you've been in contact with the scholars behind the research and the Dead Sea scrolls.

Did they have this same kind of problem when they first released the information on the scrolls?

That was a long AGO's almost ninety years ago, isn't it when they found out.

Oh, sort of nineteen forty seven, so that's about eighty years ago.

Eighty years ago.

Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of controversy, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, I mean one senior scholar told us about all about ten twelve years ago that when scholars first were brought in to translate them, they were given orders by certain people from one eye to translate them away from christian origin.

What.

Yeah, yeah, we were.

I was astonished by that.

And yeah, but you know again, you know we're eighty years down the pathway now Christianity is it's not in a brilliant state.

Yeah, it's the church, not necessarily Christianity church.

Yeah, we need now to start reconfiguring thinking about it and as I said, we need to start loving our labels.

David, this has been a real eye opener and a pleasure having you on the program.

I want to mention to our listeners that David is going to send me.

I think we agreed on five to seven photographs from the book that he took of not only the cave, but details of these codeses the middle and how it was forged into these little small books are small, so you can go to Earth Ancients on Facebook and you'll see all the details.

David, we want to follow up on this, so let's have you back and we'll have Jennifer back to do see the next phase of this research.

Absolutely, and just one small thing I forgot to mention, just that your viewers might find quite exciting if they go to the Gospel of John to the episode of the woman taking in adultery.

Jesus went faced with the elders.

Before he utters his wonderful immortal words, he kneels down to write in the sand.

That is the description of the making of a lead book.

Sand is wetted with water, You write in it, you stamp in your your symbols, and then you pour molten lead over it.

Within a matter of a few minutes, you have got uniform, thin sheets of lead that can then be trimmed, piled on top of each other, and sewn together to give you a codex.

Are you speculating that that's how they were made?

Nope, we know that's how they were made, they don't.

They pour the mold of the cover in the wet sand.

In the sand.

In wet sand, you know, when you go to the sea, Yeah, and you're sea shore down, you leave footprints in the wet sand and it takes two or three incoming waves to finally erase the mark.

That's exactly how you make a metal book, because once you've wet the sand, the sand will not collapse.

When you're pouring in the metal because it's wet.

So we have the world's first printing in a sense that's amazing.

I never even thought about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that tells you immediately that there's a coder within the Gospels even which is giving you chap from Verse on these things.

So that's another curious piece of well teasing information from myself, which we'll talk about in the coming months.

Best wish is to get your books published and for keep in touch with me as see if I can help.

If you can't get a straight line to a publisher, I would think that someone would be love to pick up this new book.

Well, now we've you know, verified the authenticity of these things on the footage is now available online.

I'm hoping that somebody will be brave enough to take on the task of getting this information out to Christians and non Christians everywhere, because this is really important.

It would be a new Year's wish for you and for us to have this validated on a global scale.

But I think the books would be a good first step in the right direction.

Boroally agree absolutely my success.

Keep it up.

And it's great speaking with your Cliff as ever and speak to you hopefully later in the year.

You know, discovery is what we're all about here on earth, ancients, and from the very minute that I decided to do a podcast, my goal was to find stories like this, the led coteses or books that are old and that people don't know about, and they shake up the institutions of education and higher learning.

It obviously religion we need to be shaken up.

We're too docile or too complacent in our daily activities.

And I'm always questioning history, and this is one of the best examples of questioning the disciples of Christ and Christ himself.

If these are actually what they look like they are, which is documents of a time prior to the Bible.

This is prior to the people who wrote the Bible.

So and I just love the story and I really urge you to see the documentary.

You can also see go to Jordancourtises dot com, I guess and see what's there.

But the documentary is fairly new and we didn't really talk about it.

He's coming up with another book later in the year, so we have that to look forward to also, So it was fun having him on the program.

We will have him back.

I'm sure we'll have him back before the end of the year given his commitment to the projects having to do with these codises.

So fun stuff.

Hey, I haven't mentioned it recently, but I'll be speaking at the New Living Expo April seventeenth in Santra Fiel, which is just north of San Francisco, and I'm presenting some new slides on Mayan pyramid tech.

Where they developed their science, how they utilized it, and what we don't know scientifically, what we're beginning to understand and from these oral traditions left to us by the Maya, we're beginning to sense that they really had a science in place that was able to change not only the environment but human physiology.

For all the details on this expo, go to a New Livingexpo dot com and you can see the entire itinerary and daily speakers is over.

I think it's about one hundred and fifty speakers over three days the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth of April.

So if you can make it, come on down, say hi and take in the information.

Love to have you on the program.

All right, then, for this podcast, I want to think my guest today David Elkington, coming to us from London as always the team of Gueltor, Mark Foster and Faisal Pravar.

You guys rock al right, Take care of you well and we'll talk to you next time.

The Woman lads