Report to Transporter Room three.

Oh, Brian, here, I need you in Transporter Room three.

This is the Captain.

Meet me in Transporter Room three.

Join us in Transporter Room three, Captain, We're heading for Transporter Room three.

This is your favorite transport room, isn't it.

You're listening to Transporter Room three with your hosts Phil Perello and sok Laura Energize.

Welcome back to another installment of Transporter Room three.

DS nine edition, Dominion four edition.

Would you say, Scott Hell?

Yeah?

Absolutely.

We're teeing up a special couple of episodes.

I don't know, we'll see how how long this goes, but we want to talk about the first six episodes of season six, the.

Dominion War arc.

As we promised a few weeks back that we would tackle this.

Yeah, and a special guest.

So we're gonna do.

And we got a special guest, my friend and a friend of the podcast, mister Justin Boulger with his awesome DS nine model in the background in his office right now, playmates DS nine old.

G O G.

Thanks for having me back.

Thanks great man.

Yeah, it's been too long man, it's nice to have you.

We didn't have to twist his arm to do this either.

He was chomping at the bit.

With these episodes.

Of course, if if you guys could see, I don't know who's who's got the nerdiest room of the three of us.

It's probably a three way tie.

I guess.

I don't know, but.

I have a Start Trek six poster from Dubai on my floor, so I think I win this one.

That's true.

You are you are currently like unrolling a poster.

You have weights on each corner of a poster.

Yeah, fair enough speed.

So we're talking about the first two episodes of season six, A Time to Stand and Rocks and Shawls, which are two great episodes.

I think, amazing episodes, like not just a DS nine but of all of track.

Yeah, they're just brilliantly structured and incredibly well acted.

And I think Rock and Shills is one of the best things run More has ever written.

Yeah, it's really good.

Yeah, it feels like in the Trek Cannon.

So well, we'll talk Time to Stand first, I guess, but like, just to catch people up a bit, this is picking up after the Starfleet people.

The season begins with Starfleet have lost the station.

At the end of the previous season, right, So, Cisco, Dax, Basher, they're all off Deep Space nine on basically Regular one, right, Like the station where they hang out at is uh it's the reuse of the Regular one model from the Wrath of Khan.

And but meanwhile, Kira and Odo and Jake have stayed behind, and so they're still on the station which is being occupied by the Kardassians and the Dominion, which is such a great twist that they did that.

It's like, yeah, like makes sense, makes perfect sense.

Like Kira and Odo like that's their home basically, right, And.

The way they handle Kira's arc as realizing, shit, I'm collaborating with these people.

Yeah, I risked my life to to kill I'm not looking for them.

Yeah, that's over these first two episodes, we get that, we get that little mini arc from Kira right there, right, So well, the time to stand like, so what uh, what do you guys think?

Like, did.

Does it feel because I haven't watched these in so long?

Does it feel weird not having Cisco and those guys on the station at all?

You know?

I think because I'm used to it, I'm used to this storyline.

No.

At the same time, yet it feels a little odd because season six is a different show to a degree.

Yeah, i'm off station for as launched as we are.

Yeah, I would agree that it felt different, But I think the strength is that it doesn't.

Feel odd at watching those watching.

Those scenes specifically and then realizing that you really only have kira Odo, and then, to a lesser degree, Jake, who's a main character but not like always a main character, but then everyone else surrounding them are just supportings that have come back and forth.

Really, I think stands as a testament to the wider tapestry of actors on the show, any amount of plot lines that you can watch without feeling like it's it's filler or like b story material it Sometimes I thought those stories read or watched better than the main action that was going on.

Yeah that's a good point.

Yeah, yeah, Deep say signs great at that?

Actually, right, oh, just in general like that, the sometimes you watch the next generation and the difference between the A and the B is quite extreme, right, and Deep You're right justin deep say sign it really, especially when you're at this level of deep say sign, it's like I don't even know which the A or the B is sometimes actually, and we forgot Quark of course is also still on board too.

He's not gonna leave his his bar, although he's not making that much money when he's just got Kardassians and gem hoidor especially gem Nidara.

Not like how they capture that.

It's it's brief, but you know the pinch that's happening to him and his like he's trying to straddle both lines.

But I like the message there.

It doesn't matter what you can.

You can try to appease it, play neutral all you want, you're still going to get compromised.

Right, Yeah, And so of course we've got Golden Cot is a big part of this.

He's running, he's back, he's got the big office again.

Uh and uh Wayouon is around as well, and and Damar, who's still a Ducats second in command at this point, I guess the three of them are floating around.

Alsoot's mullet.

That's also.

I was very mindful of his hair and this.

And his teeth.

Also I was noticing when he has a scene I don't remember which, I think it might be the rocks and shawls, I don't remember, but he's he's trying trying to charm Kira in his office at one point, and he's smiling broadly and it's so creepy and like he's like he's yeah, he's he's doing his best to put on, like, you know, a facade of being a nice, cool guy, which I guess to him, maybe he doesn't even think it's a facade, right, because he's such a sociopath.

But but I was, yeah, I was noticing, like, oh god, he's got really teeth.

Actually, Kara hates him so much.

It's not like how delusional he is too that he thinks there's gonna be some sort of romance with them.

Well, at the end of that conversation.

Like nice teeth, bad breath, Yeah, classic Kira.

Right.

Of course, Da Kat does have the we don't know it yet and Kira doesn't know it, but he does have that history of having romance Kira's mom, which is like one of the skewest things Deep Says I ever did.

On the problematic side, there's a great, a great line from a Fraser episode.

It's not a romance if you're part of a country's occupying force.

So how did that ever come up in Fraser?

I can't I can't imagine.

There's an episode where Martin's hitting on one of Daphne's friends and it's because she quote unquote reminds him of the girls he used to date in Korea, and Daphne has to nicely remind him that, no, not the same situation.

That's amazing.

That's so good.

So we get some good, good space battle action in this episode too, though, Right, yeah, I love the missions they come up with for the It's note that always has cool like like, this is our objective.

We gotta we have to go blow up the ketrosal White facility, right, It's like it makes so much strategic sense, right, like oh yeah, like we're we take out the ketrosl White supply and the Gemudar can't function anymore.

I was actually surprised a little bit that they didn't get more into the like gray area of the morality of that, like but Sheer kind of meant but Sheer kind of points it out.

But I don't think they they don't dig into it too much?

Do they know?

They don't?

If you don't mind me like ranting for two such, I'm glad you brought that up, because, like, as I was taking notes from the episode I wrote, I wrote down there are different points in like Trek's history where you can see the franchise literally take that next evolutionary step in front of you, and I thought A Time to Stand was one of those, specifically when you consider where Star Trek is gone, Like if you if you can think of some of the quote unquote villainy of the Federation that we've seen in these last few years, A lot of it you can see starts obviously at the dominion or but that part where he says, without the catcher's all white, like you know, the Gymitar won't be able to fight, but then Ross clarifies.

They'll die.

And that's where the that's where the discussion stops, you know, like you said on Next Gen, that would have been a whole ready room or observation room debate on the morality of things in Deep Space nine is like, we don't have time for that, and you can see the character of the Federation become a little bit more I hate to use the word modern, but it's true, a little bit more modern in terms of their ethical thinking when their back is starting to get pressed up against the wall.

Yeah yeah, but Sierra is like he gives the obligatory like, oh, excuse me.

But then that's kind of as far as it goes.

Yeah, which is crazy.

It's really interesting, I think.

I guess you're right.

I mean, this is a big step for Deep Sace nine, this episode in more ways than one, right, because the serialization aspect of these six episodes obviously is a big part of it too.

Like Deep Sace nine had been building up more and more to serialization and it really culminates in the end of season seven, I guess.

But this is like these six episodes of that take place.

It is one long storyline, which you know, what year is this?

This is like.

Ninety seven, right, So it was kind of a big deal for TV back then.

It was always interesting during this time too, because I remember when this episode came on watching it originally that used to seem like it was also modern, and now it seems like I'm just old.

But when it doesn't end, and you it doesn't, it's not just how it ends.

Both of these episodes, but neither of them give you a to be continued.

And you know, for Trek fans back in the day, we weren't used to that.

The cliffhanger was the big thing.

And even in those Majorian episodes in season two that you always got it to be continued.

And then in these ones, the episodes just end.

Is IF's like, yeah, you're an adult now you can understand that story goes on without you know, the corporate kind of signifiers.

Right, you know, with apologies to Magal Barrett, right, like we don't need to hear her say yeah.

It's true.

And this, I mean, the ending of this one of a time to stand is it's one of the all time great endings.

Yeah, the ship is disabled, they can't they can't go to warp there and they're stuck.

They succeed in their mission, right barely.

They blow up the ketch a Soul White facility.

Basically they make it out by luck as far as I could tell, because the bomb goes off sooner than they thought.

But then the ship is damaged and they're just stuck and deep and well Cardassian Dominion space I guess it is.

And then that's it.

The ship's just flying off and the episode ends.

It's like, oh no, now what you know?

But I have to say, guys, I remembered this ending differently for some reason, which I think is interesting, and it might speak to what you're talking about justin.

You got a Mandela effect with it.

I did, yeah, episode, Yeah, yeah, And I wonder if it speaks a little bit to what you're saying justin about just how like we're grown ups now and we can appreciate that the story is going to continue.

Because I remembered it.

I hadn't seen it in a while.

I remembered it.

I remembered loving the ending.

I knew that they were going to get stuck in space after succeeding in the attack, but I remembered the ship being damaged and crashing on the planet and rocks and shoals.

I remember that being the I remembered it starting to head towards the planet, and then that was when the credits rolled, which does none of that happens until the next episode.

That's not this, you know.

So I don't know why that was and why I remembered it that way, but I thought that was really interesting.

It speaks to the continuity of the storytelling that how intertwined everything is.

I guess that I wasn't able to quite parse where one ended and with the other began, but was an ending and what the beginning to episode two, right.

Right, they're both very there.

I can see why you would think it would end that way because it feels like a natural cliffhander ending.

It's just a cliffhander to the teaser in the next episode.

But they're both I I think they both show effectively how serialization back then could have been done.

Yep.

And I mean it was often you know, frowned upon because of syndication reasons.

But the I this arc is just amazing and what a great way to kick it off.

And how cool is the the mission within the mission getting the Ketracell White Uh Factory, and it feels like Guns of Navarone, you know, the River Kwai like, which I know bear is a huge World War two movie buff but it just feels like that, and like and the complications, like they get it all timed perfectly, that doesn't work.

And then they started to scan themselves.

Okay, well we got to figure this out.

How do we get out there's a variance or whatever, all that tech and then oh the thing goes off early.

Yeah, they were tampering with it, you know, maybe they were inspecting the cargo and it went on and they got to get out of there, it's.

It's and you've got Garrek.

Garrek's part of the team now pretty much right, like right, I can't remember how like, I can't remember how much Garrek was being intro like interwoven with the starfleet story so directly up until this point.

But at this point he's just full on.

He's wearing the communicator badge.

Right, he's basically part of part of the crew, you know.

And he's super useful as well, right, Like he he can wear the headset like Cisco's getting a headache from the headset on the Jumpinar ship, and so Garrek steps in, oh, you know, like it actually works okay on the Kardassian you know, like, and he he's always.

So funny as well.

Even in the christ moments, Garrek is like, who you know, I love him When.

They start to crash, I was thinking when Garrek is the person on the bridge who says, oh no, that's when you should really get scared, you know, anyone else know, He's like, all right, we can figure this out.

But when he says it, you're like, yes, he kind of steps back.

It's almost like he sort of steps back or something when he says it too It's like I had to rewind that moment just to hear what he said.

It's like, oh, wait, Garrek's worried, and he's not lying about it either, exactly.

Yeah, the rare time Garrek is telling the truth?

Right?

Uh?

Uh?

Did that?

I didn't do a ton of research leading into this to do we know?

Did they what was the gem Hitar bridge set?

Was that designed for this episode or with it?

Did we already have?

I think they reused it from a Time to Stand?

Okay, right, yeah, I don't know for sure.

Though I think they I think they used it in the ship because this is the ship that they captured in that one.

Oh right, right, right, right right?

They reused that.

But I believe it's a redress of either Sick Bay or the Defiance mess Hall set.

I'd have to double check.

But but speaking of a Time to Stand, just some trivia on it.

Just this quote from Hans Bimler about how the sixth episode arc like was all encompassing and how big of a deal it was stood out for me and my research for it.

As he explains in The Deep Space nine Companion, which is a great book that I got it on Amazon for like three dollars and eighty six cents a few years ago.

Uh, it's out of print.

It was basically Memory Alpha before Memory Alpha.

Right, gave it play by play of this whole arc, and.

It's it's amazing companion ever written for a Star Trek show.

Yeah, ever, like it made the Star Trek.

It makes the TG companion look like cliffs notes, Like it's not even like it's so in depth.

It's it's amazing.

As Bimler explains, this was big, a really big thing for us because even though we had done some strange things over the course of the show, we never had attempted a six episode arc.

Not even in the history of Star Trek has this ever been done before.

None of us came from series where you did that.

So it was a new experience for all of us, and there was a learning curve, but it showed us the possibilities and the excitement that could be garnered, and in the end, we liked it so much that we decided to do the ten episode arc at the end of the.

Series, shaving a couple of years off of brick Berman's life.

Right because the stress.

He was a little hesitant to it, but he really I don't know.

Maybe this is the salesman in him, but he seems to have really gotten on board with it because according to his quote and the companion, I think the potential for the serialization or near serialization of the show was always there.

If you're on a spaceship, you have your family of people who go off and meet aliens every week.

But DS nine was conceived as a stationary show.

It took place on a space station, and we found ourselves developing dozens of ancillary characters and recurring characters, and because we remained there, those characters kept coming back.

So once you have the tapestry of all of these different characters, and you had all of these different stories that we were kind of weaving in and out, I think it's sort of baked for more of a serialized formats.

I think that's the salesman in him, because he was kind of like bare, just kind of wore him down.

They always talk about that, right, how deep SACE nine was the natural fit, which I understand is true, Like Moren is sitting at the bar, like you know, every day, so you know you could do more in stories, or you know, someone like Garrek develops into a mar character over time, but like you could do you can also do those stories on a starship.

I mean, you know how many people live on the Enterprise D like eleven hundred people or something like, you know, like you could have made like the bar, like the the bar made in ten forwards.

She could have been become you know, like like Lida or like like you could have built up arc.

Stories there as well.

You know.

So like sometimes it feels a little bit like, I don't know, like they have to like make excuses for why it was okay for Deep say sign to do what it did, where maybe it was really more it was just Iris Steven Bear for one, forcing forcing.

It to happen, you know.

So I feel like it almost even made more sense for Voyager to be recurring because they have like like one hundred and forty something on a little ship and no family's gonna come anywhere.

But that's a good point, right, It's a small group.

Yeah, And that was always one of my biggest I'm sorry, Phil real quick, that was always one of the that was always one of my biggest disappointments about Voyager, I think was that being such a small group over seven years, you really should have gotten to know the background crew more, and like they were pretty disposable and like there were a couple of familiar faces here or there, you know, but like by and large it was it never felt like, oh, it's the same people have been on this journey for seven years, you know.

But anyway, I'm sorry, Phil.

No, don't be.

I was just gonna say.

Scott and I have been talking a lot lately about that oral history book, like the first twenty five years.

And oh yeah, the Mark Ollman one.

Yeah, yeah, right there.

I was just reading it over the weekend.

There was a section in there about one of the writers on Star Trek pointed out that Voyager had one of the best premises but worse executions in Star Trek history.

And it was this idea of you're sent seventy thousand light years from home, no resources, no nothing, in a corner space we don't even know, with aliens that you don't even want to know, I'm paraphrasing, And what is it like to get home from that?

Your resources are dwindling, You have infighting amongst the maquis, where do they fit in?

Do they even want to fit in?

You have Janeway barely holding everything together, like, what does that look like?

What is she willing to do?

How is that?

How is that going to manifest in seven years ago?

Are you going to be the same people you are when you started?

And they kind of dropped the ball on that to do next Gen two point zero is basically what the quote said, right, And we didn't get a version of some of that story's potential until Battlestar.

And ironically, as we've talked about, you know that Ron Moore wanted to he left Voyager in large part because he couldn't do on that what he was able to do on Battlestar.

Yeah, be efitionally honest with the premise.

Yeah, it's it's interesting.

Speaking of Ron Moore, here's a quick breakdown of how they they came up with the story of A Time to Stand plus the five episodes that would constitute the arc.

After quote, we broke the six episodes altogether, but as everybody went off and worked on writing them, things would start to change or shift.

I'm getting tense just reading about this like this is it became a much more interactive process than it had ever been before because each detail had a domino effect.

We had that happened before to a certain extent, but we'd never done this to many episodes with this many continuing storylines as a single piece.

We weren't used to that rhythm, and it was definitely challenging, very interesting.

Like I think he the plot he was working on on Rocks and Shoals, which aired before Sons and Daughters but were shot after.

I think his Sons and Daughters is part three of this.

The storylines were changing on that episode, so he had to change his the fit that, Yeah, are they the change?

There's the fit hit.

Yeah, it was a whole thing.

And the thing is the previewed the Battlestar writer's room there.

Yeah, that's right, right, But I mean I think the Star Trek guys were on a much tighter schedule, right, I'm sure it wasn't Yeah, well I'm sure it wasn't easy for Battlestar either, But like they're churning out those twenty six but they've often talked about how they they would really just be delivering pages like you know, like the day before or day of to the actors in some cases, right, So, like it must have gotten pretty white knuckle stuff at times when you know suddenly you're having to because of something that happened two episodes down the line, you're now having to reconfigure over here.

So also before I guess, before we move on to fully to Rocks and Trolls, the stuff with Odo and Wyoon is pretty interesting and and I think it's in the time to stand is more more.

Were they interested?

I think?

But like everyone kind of looks at Odo as Odo on the station, except from what we could tell whyoun.

I guess the gem Hitar probably look at them differently too.

But wyouon is like whatever you want?

Oh, you want to you want your you want your men back on patrol.

Absolutely sorry, you know.

Dacott's like, what the fuck are you doing?

You know?

And I just love that dynamic, like I love Wyoon because Wyouon is so you know, Jeffrey Combs, he's so is such a toady and yeah, you know, and it's like, but I think he does genuinely.

I mean, what do you guys think he really does worship oh the Founders?

Right?

I think he does.

And it's also great that as powerful as Goldencott thinks he is, he's still second fiddle to whatever the hell it is that the Founders have going.

On yeah, absolutely, yeah, he's just a pawn, right, And I.

Just and watching these two episodes, wayoon comes this portrayal of way, I don't want to be a nerd or anything like this podcast.

I think it's like and my I've seen a lot of TV, maybe not as much as most, but I think more than the average, and his portrayal of this character is not I think, not just one of the best in Star Trek, but on TV overall, Like I think, like, uh, it's an underrated portrayal because there's all like he gives whatever this character needs in all the weird makeup and maybe even weirder storylines.

He gives it the exact amount ever it needs every episode.

And the looks he gives, the way the eyes are when he's talking to Jake during that walk and talk about why his messages aren't going to be blocked because they're not pro dominion, which is more time now than it was then, and that's frightening to me.

I just like this guy's he's more danger than the guys with the horns coming out of their face.

I am absolutely.

I also was struck in this episode, like yeah, absolutely every everything you just said.

Phil I was thinking the same thing, and I had the thought watching it that this is really the first time that you get to see all of wayun like the three six year way, and not just I'm here with the Jim Huddar, so I'm pretending to be hard edged unless I'm behind the scenes with Odo.

And then the scene that you were talking about when he is talking to Major Care about Bajoran's coming back to the station, and then he's he goes into, Okay, well, I can't just be the politician now that Ducat and Damar are here, but I can kind of play these two off of each other, rather these three off of each other and make the dominion seem better.

And then right at the end of there, where Damar and Ducot go into the background, and you see way you and talk to Kira and that booming voice becomes kind of a quiet whisper, And I want to know, does Odo know I'm doing everything that I can produce, And he's his face is even turned away from those two who he can't show weakness to, But as soon as she leaves, he's giving her that way you and smile, and they do a great thing in the scene where you can see the light from the corridor on his face, and when the door closes again, it becomes darker, and almost right at the moment that the full darkness hits his face, he almost he drops the smile and just I can't even glide with my body as smoothly as he does with his voice and body in conjunction, turns back to those two and Damar runs his mouth and now like in a split second, he's the military commander like, oh, don't look at him.

I'm telling you to leave.

Like such a great performance.

It's like pouring water back and forth between two glasses.

It just flows, but like both hold the full intensity of his performance.

One of my favorite characters.

I love him so good.

Describe man, thank you for sharing that.

That's really good.

You can see why he wind up on Enterprise and they ash and then they really they wanted to make him a regular eventually the way the story goes right, So he's just yeah, he's so good.

Uh uh.

And I mean, you know, like you said, Phil, like we're not going to get into the ural world politics of it or anything here, but like there are some timely elements to these episodes.

I mean, even Odo, like joining the joining, the joining the tribune, whatever it is, the council that's running on the council, which we haven't really seen in action too much yet, I don't think in these but they they Kira recommends like, yeah, you should join it, you should do it.

But it's like, well, what what's And we'll get into that, I think as we go along on these episodes, but like, what's the line.

What's the line between joining it because it's the right thing to do because you can affect positive change to between that and suddenly being part of the problem.

And at what point are you VC France?

You know so?

You know so?

And Kira kind of deals with Kira comes to deal with that in some degree in the second episode as well.

So maybe we should talk a little bit about rocks and shoals, which is amazing the first episode times standards of me rocks and shawls blew my socks off, to use an old fashioned dad expression, I guess, I don't know, but like, well.

Before we get into that one, I'm just curious for both of you, when did you first watch these episodes when they originally aired or after the fact.

Yeah, when they originally aired, which was in my case in Charleston, South Carolina, at ten thirty pm on a Saturday night, because you know, that's what nerds do.

I did not always stay in to watch DS nine, though I would tape it on my VHS.

For these episodes, I was so hooked, I remember distinctly, no matter what I was doing, I was going to be back home, like well before curfew and watching this as it unfolded.

This it looks like this was the fall of ninety.

Seven, yeah into September.

Yeah, So I think I must have been watching them at home back in New York.

I was.

I think I had just gotten off my adventures on the cruise ship for good, and so I was, but as I don't know, justin if you know, like i've when I traveled, I worked on the cruise ship for a few years.

My poor mom would have to tape them on VHS and mail them to me.

Yes, poor mother, Scott, that's hardcore.

Yeah.

And then like they sometimes and my sister would get roped in sometimes they would like screw it up, and so I would like I'd be like in like you know, like Mumbai or something, getting the package, and they'd be like they fucking missed the one where Wharf goes on trial.

But uh, I think at this point I was back home, so I was catching these as they aired, and you know, just so.

So into it at this point.

Right, what about you, Phil?

Were you I can't recall were you I?

You know, I can't remember.

I don't remember when I watched A Time to Stand.

I'm sure I taped it when it aired on our Fox affiliate at like two point thirty on a Saturday or a Sunday.

The weirdest time, it was always preempted by like golf or some sports thing.

You can always catch it again mid nine or two in the morning.

It's like insane how TV was back then.

And if you set your VCR, sorry, if you set your VCR to tape at that time, sometimes you might just catch if it was preempted.

But then it started forty minutes like you'd catch the first twenty and that was it, you know, Like I remember, I.

Set the time around my VCR for like an hour on either side or if not more, go through the whole thing.

Mar I do remember watching rock Shoals and being like, I'm embarrassed to admit this now, but a Planet episode I want to be on the ship.

I want to, like, I just I didn't appreciate as much as I do now, obviously.

But I did a rewatch of the show in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, and I was like, I just I count those as like my first official watch of it.

That's when I really remembered it.

But I do.

I do remember taping Rocktion Shoals and and I remember the title what the Hell's a Shot?

I had no idea what it was, and I don't.

I'm embarrassed how my opic I was about my appreciation for the seventh.

Well, you were younger, it's a shared experience.

I think I was just starting to have like my first serious girlfriend at that time.

So Star Trek kind of took a little back seat to being a teenager.

I mean, you know, you do you know we all want to live well rounded lives, right, So like human companionship is kind of up there with Star Trek, you know.

So like I'm glad that.

You It's life.

You can miss it if you don't take a second to look up.

And there you go, there you go.

So this, yeah, so this is episode.

As a teenager, you like.

The Shawls part a lot.

I think yeah.

Yeah, So it starts with them they're lost, they're stuck in space, and then they they wind up Well what happens now now I'm blanking, do they Oh?

A federationship comes in after them.

That's what happens, right, The gym.

Hodar actually after them from the end of the last episode.

Okay, right, okay, right, right, right, right, I'm sorry.

So, uh and they wind up they wind up in a nebula where there's a planet, and they crash on this planet which also has a gem down gem hitarship with a gravely injured found gravely injured?

What are they vorida?

Sorry guys, right, okay, right?

Is one of the most sinister vorida on the Like the actor is playing it looks perfectly vocal inflection, like you want this guy to die so bad.

He's making me route for the gem Hoodar.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to Gemadar.

Yeah that's well, that's the thing about the Gemindar.

A lot of times when you do get to follow them, they are sympathetic, right, Like they're they're different from the founders and and the Vorda and i mean Cisco even references a previous time when they went on they it was the one where they went they found the Iconian Portals or whatever, right, like, so that's right, yeah, which I love that episode.

I love both of those episodes actually, the TG one and the d S nine one.

But uh yeah, these guys you're rooting for those gempinar to some degree in this one, I would say, right.

And the casting of that border is great because first of all, you have what we just were discussing, which is Jeffrey comes.

He's the Vorda, right, so like it's it's hard to you know, he's got the silly makeup and everything.

It's a little hard to to go.

They don't they're not any scenes together or anything, but you have Jeffery Combs on your mind when you think of a Borida at this point.

And then this guy comes in and then he's he's great, He's scary, he's oily.

His eyes yeah, his eyes.

Yeah, speaking of eyes is kind of it's kind.

Of beautiful in a weird way, which makes him even more scary, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, when he's when he's like joking around and almost being amiable with the crew in the cave, the fact that his eyes don't maybe it's it's contact.

Lenses the way.

I don't think his pupils like zero, his irises close in or get wider.

So he's having a regular person conversation with these characters, and you're like, I don't like looking at you man, right, yes, right.

Yeah, speaking of eyes, did any of you notice when Ramata Klan some of his close ups his left eyes bloodshot.

It was hot, it was very hot.

Yes, the makeup would run into their eyes.

I was telling Scott about this.

The make it would run into their eyes because it was over one hundred and twenty degrees.

And that's the that's like the third Gemedar number three, right right, Okay.

Your stories from the set where they're like fainting Jimpdaar all over the place having to get him out of.

The heat spelted.

Yeah, well so I know this in the the first scene that we see the gem Dar down on the planet, which obviously is on location.

I don't know where where they were when they shot this.

But I believe they were in Sun Valley.

It's the same location, ironically where the ship that crashed they found.

Okay, yeah, but yeah, it looks hot.

I know this that the one gem Hedar his uniform.

Their uniforms are slightly different and the one his chest is exposed and it's a whole it looks like it's a whole piece of rubber or something covering him and it actually, say, but didn't look great because it it would be like if my chest right now was just like for some reason like moving like big.

But I was thinking, like God, those guys like they must be they must be suffering right now under all the you know, they're covered in prosthetics and play and you know, armor and all the rest of it.

Uh, it's yeah, but the location stuff that they that they do is awesome and they add so much to the episode.

It makes it feel imagine if they were just on you know, like the early TG sets where it's like the glowing blue background like that's supposed to be a planet, you know, like it just it brings so much to it.

It's it's great.

Do you guys have do you know or do you do you have any theories on as to why Dax is injured the whole episode, the entire episode, she.

That was intentional.

The writers had her injured because she has a skin condition that prevents her exposure to direct sunlight.

Right, wow, right, right, and.

Yeah like zartin Yeah.

She later commented that this was the reading she did not do much exterior feeling and was teased by crew members for walking with the parasol, which she's like, no, fuckers, like I have some sensitivity.

Like I mean, Terry Farrell is a very delicate and scrumptious young woman in this and if she needs a parasol, she can have one.

Right.

Also, who cares she's not because the visual of that, ooh you think there's some sort of you know, nineteen twenties you know.

So yeah, I'm all high faluting with this.

No, she's keeping the sun offer because she could get hurt and sick.

It's it's a little odd in the episode.

I think that she's that they she's injured for no discernible reason, because like right away they kind of say like, oh, okay, she's gonna be fine.

Like so it seemed pretty clear that there must have been a behind the scenes reason for it, right, but it's not just it's not for story purposes, you know.

But uh, the the ending of this episode where the essentially the gem Hodar says, listen, I've got I've got to get off this planet.

You guys, I'm gonna set up a trap for my for my gem.

The vorter says, I'm going to set up a trap for my gem Dar.

You guys, you starfly people have to take them out and then we'll all go.

Home and I could be a prisoner of a war for the rest of the war.

I would saying.

I was texting with Phil about this, justin if it was the Next Generation, what would have happened?

This was not not.

Not to this on the Next Generation, but if this was the Next Generation episode, how do you think this the final act would have played out?

Yeah, Mure, Yeah, just I'm curious what you're gonna say that.

That's a great question.

Okay, So I'm gonna have to walk myself through it.

So the Card and Company or on this planet he's offered this deal.

If it was Next Generation, I hate saying this, but maybe Ramoticlon would have died, but some of his men may have somehow been able to be put in stasis, or or Picardin's crew would have found a way to dis disarm the Gemhadar and take them into custody on their own and kind of force.

The humane solution onto them.

Right or the Enterprise would have swooped in somehow saved the day.

Yeah, maybe like that, Maybe the Jemadar take out the Vorda along the way, right.

Yeah, so Ramonticlon doesn't take him out, but the same guy who h yes, that's how it would end the sixth the one who fired on the crew because the white withdrawal was getting to him.

He would have stepped up for Ramonticlon, who could not quote unquote do the necessary thing.

He would have killed Kievan and then Picarden and the crew would have taken them into custody or Ramoticlon would some how Ramodiclon would get off, but it maybe still have to pay a price, but they'd find a way to eat their cake and have it too.

And that's not that's not a dig.

That's just you know, we all know.

That's kind of the tenor of how nix Gen operated.

It's a different, different show.

Right, Maybe Ramodiclon dies saving his men somehow, maybe, right, But the but the the Card's crew don't have blood on their hands in the end, I don't think, right.

I mean that?

So now the Deep SHACEE nine version, they slaughter the gem Hdar because they don't have a choice, right, they have to do it.

We're Modiciclon dies.

They all die, and the Vorda gets off, gets exactly what he wanted.

The bad guy of the episode wins for a few episodes.

Anyway.

Oh, I don't remember what.

I don't remember what happens?

Did we see him again?

Yeah?

Keevin's the vorta from the Magnificent Frengie, the one who's not Iggy Pop.

Oh, of course say the act.

Okay, spoilers, I guess the weekend at Bernie's Vorda.

Yes, he shows up in the Yeah, that's right, Scott, there you go, or.

Technically would be the weekend at Bernie's two vorda because he can move and walk around.

The Magnificent Ferengi is a great episode, that thing.

I never saw that before until I did my rewatch in twenty twelve twenty thirteen and was completely blown away by how good it was.

But he also played a su Luban on Enterprise and the episode Detained, and he played an Endrian Enterprise and the episode Cease Fire.

He also said as an alien with a weird blue face.

Oh okay, totally has the shape of the sulaban.

I can I can totally see that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

But I mean the so the ending of this thing though is like it is a gut punch, right, I mean it's like, oh yeah.

Francisco does try tries to.

Talk reason to the Gemhadar, I guess, and it's just there's no, it's just.

It can't it's not gonna happen.

It's just not it doesn't happen, you know.

So it's it's the way that they handle that attempt too, whether they realize it's the order of things, this is how it's supposed to be.

Yeah, if they're gonna die, they'd rather go out in a battle, even if it's a you know, a manipulated one, you know.

Yeah, they're almost better Klingons than the Klingons are at this point.

Yeah, yeah, that's that is a great point.

It really is.

Yeah, offered the opportunity to stab each other in the back for genuine gain, not even power, and they won't.

Take it because that's not what we believe in.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah, it's true.

So then meanwhile, over on the station, we do have to talk about major Kira, right, like Phil, you alluded to it, earlier, right, but the Karra is starting to realize.

She's kind of looking around.

She's you get a day in the life of Kira a little bit, right, Like, she wakes up, gets out of the bed, looks in the mirror, goes down to ops.

It takes the elevator with all the Jumpinar and the border of the Cardassians, gets her coffee.

I like how there's a Cardassian who has to get her coffee for her.

I know he has a name too, And she's, yeah, is that like an intern?

Who is that?

I don't know so.

But meanwhile there there's.

Unrest is starting to boil up among the Bajorans on the station and uh, and it all culminates in this in this Vedic.

Kira meets with this Vedic and tries to talk her down.

You know, it's things are going to be worse if you do appro if you have a protest, they're going to crack down on us, blah blah blah.

And she calls it out like it is too.

Yeah, yeah, the Vedic.

They show up the next day with where the protest is supposed to happen, right, the demonstration, and then no one's there and they're figuring out what trying to figure out what's happening, and then it's.

Just the Vetan must be opposed, and then she's evil, must be opposed.

Yeah, it's crazy.

That slow mo zoom in on Kira.

I believe that's the first time Truck's ever done anything like that.

Yeah, in that type of context.

And that scene is perfectly edited with snapping of the rope and her foot and then her her hat hits the.

Yeah, she hangs herself.

It's crazy, and then they're pretty It's it's interesting to watch it nowadays because they really don't show that.

You don't actually see the vedic unless I'm wrong.

I don't think you actually see her hanging right, like her feet and you see her hat go down right.

But they're they're they're kind of careful about how much they show, you know, but what a gut punch, right, So it's the awakening that Kia needs to realize that, you know, maybe she was in danger of becoming a collaborator essentially right like where you know, So we'll see where that goes from there.

But but she's not she's done.

She's not messing around anymore.

And she and she even says to Odo something like I don't want to.

I don't remember how she puts it, but she I don't want to be on this on opposite sides from you, or something like that, but.

She had to.

You know, she will write you know like which is great.

Some trivia real quick on this episode before we wrap up.

It's the only episode in the entire Dominion Invasion arc where Goldencott and Damar do not appear.

Oh interesting, And there was an alternate ending to this episode that was scripted but not shot because also Quirk and Wharf do not appear in this episode.

Oh yeah right.

There is a scene in the original script that had Wharf arriving to rescue the Starfleet crew aboard the Roteran, the Cleon ship that he's on.

The scenes saw the crew burying Gordon and the gem Hadar and Wharf and two Klingons beamed down and Garrett tells Wharf for once, mister Wharf, it's good to see you, and Wharf looks at all the graves and tells Cisco that you were outnumbered.

It must have been glorious, and Cisco's face like weighing that in the episode would end interesting and that scene was not filmed due to the searing temperatures at the time and the lack of light.

The writers then realized it was much better to end on a close up of Cisco.

Yeah, I think so.

Also, how tone deaf can Wharf be?

Right?

Like?

Right?

I know?

Can I add one more behind the scenes fag just because you brought them up?

So Vetta Gassim.

I cannot remember the actor's name, but they're played by the same person who plays Mother Superior.

And I'm a horror movie buff.

Is it not Black Christmas?

But the one where Santa Claus is the killer?

I can't remember the name of the movie.

But as soon as I saw yes, thank you.

But as soon as I saw as soon as I saw her, as like, oh my gosh, that's another sup I.

Once you hate a face and a voice from a film, you can't unsee it, and it's like, that's them.

I think that's what It's hard for me to get on board with kai Win once because one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

She gave you a lot of reasons later though.

I know I could not steer or she played that character perfectly, but neck veins would bulge and I cannot stare.

That's one.

Yeah, every time I rooted for her to die so bad in the in the finale, like yes, smilely, she's gonna take it.

Out, you got what you wanted.

Wow, she really had.

That's another episode, I guess, but she really got.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of comeuppances.

Well, no, are we going to the Red Shirt?

I was gonna go to the Red Shirt.

That's a weird no that we should go to the red Shirt.

But that's a weird judgment about this poor guy we're about to talk talking about.

He couldn't deserve it.

I mean, he was all right.

Let let's go to the red that.

He didn't deserve it.

He was already rifle good.

You listen to Cisco.

We're talking about Ensign Gordon.

I feel a lot of shame now about trying to eulogize your attention.

All crew, please don your dress uniforms and prepare the photon torpedo coffins.

It's time for the Red Shirt of the week.

You got us come up.

And when he died tragically, he had a family, Phil I'm.

His children loved him.

Look, man, I don't even take this excuse.

I can I can go back to My Side podcast where nowhere Man?

Who is he?

What's his name?

It's it's Ensign Gordon smart Ass.

He was the Starfleet engineer.

He was on the mission.

We know him.

He was the reddish hair, brownish hair.

Uh, kind of had like a blue steel thing going on into the final battle wielding the TG baser rifle over the rock.

Uh.

He was not a big fan of what would eventually become the slaughter of those gem Hajar and as a result of that, he was the only person to die on the Starfleet side.

As a result of that, he blamed him for everything everything you said.

You know, I don't mean to, but it's coming out that way.

I have to also say, it sounded like you were the ring shade at him for not having the first contact rifle too.

You're like, you know the old ten.

There were, but they're not wielding the first contact phaser rifles.

Maybe if he had the first contact rifle, he woether survived, right, Like, you know, maybe it's his fault.

Fault, so shame and the dead and that's that's that's the hill, and he died on.

So he's got he's got a We noted before we saw a recording.

He's all bloody too.

He takes a tastes a phaser shot, but he's a he's all bloody.

And Justin pointed out it's because the gem Hinar have anti COAGULANTU phasers.

Is that is that what it is?

Yep, they're at their weapons are meant to bleed you out.

You see that in the other Rocks and Shoals the ship.

Okay, that sounded like it was shade.

I guess it kind of was that they're both fantastic episodes.

I didn't mean it in the same way that Phil was deruentiated Gordon.

I don't make people like he does.

But a phaser rifle would have been placed at the head of Gordon's grave.

Oh okay, mm hm, no crosses I think in the twenty fourth century, right, I don't think so.

Yeah, especially not for that guy, since he apparently deserved to get deserved when.

He got so thanks guys.

And that is interesting that those two, he and the and the woman Starfleet person, they both have speaking roles, right, like they kind of they're more than they feel like more than just extras, right or they're or they're good at what they're given to do like they feel like real They feel like actual characters even though they don't have any character development, But they don't feel like just backup players so much, you know, like all right, cool, well that'll do it as always, everyone listening, pase right in.

Let us know what you think of these episodes.

Uh, you know where to hit us.

We're on Facebook.

You find us on Blue Sky.

I guess these days trespart Room three at gmail dot com talk to us on our discord as well, Justin, where are you?

You aren't Blue Sky these days too?

Right?

I am justin My first name M, my middle initial, and my last name Bulger B O L G E R, So justin M Bulger and you should be able to find me.

Awesome.

Yeah, thank you, not the.

One who is being mean about uh about our insign friend there.

That was Phil, Yeah, that was that's me.

I didn't realize it was all this love up maybe four minutes collectively around you guys, go up.

Thank you for joining us, Justin, it was really really fun.

Thank you for having me.

And we'll be back next week with sons and daughters and then the following Scott, do you want to keep doing impaired?

Or do you want.

Yeah, I think I think we're doing compaired works.

Okay, yeah, then we'll be back with sons and Daughters.

And I'm blanking on what the next installment is.

Somebody help me out, Mothers and Fathers?

Is it behind the Lines?

I think it is behind the Lines.

I'm run burkened.

I just had it open.

But this is amazing.

Okay, you guys can google it.

You'll figure it out.

We'll be back with those two.

This was a lot of fun.

We hope you guys liked it.

Let us know where you guys were when you first saw these episodes.

Share your stories with us and what you think about them, and thank you all for listening until us next time.

We'll see you all on yourved island.