A media.

Hi everyone, and welcome.

What could happen here?

It is a second episode about Kurdistan.

I am very lucky to be joined today by Vladimir van Wilgeenberg, who many of you will know is a journalist covering Kurdistan, has done excellent work for a lot of publications.

So welcome to the show of Vladimir.

Thanks so much for invitation.

Yeah, thanks thanks for being willing to join us so late at night your time.

Let's start off by discussing an event you attended or the event you were in proximity too.

By the sounds of it, people will have seen this online, I'm sure, but it was the disarmament of a number of PKK garrillas that took place in the mountains of southern Kurdistan over the weekend of the tenth to twelfth of July.

So yeah, a few days ago, well, I tried to attend the ceremony from for the biggilas that were disarming.

Basically what happened is that they burned their weapons, although technically it's not really possible to burn a weapon because there were this colossicals.

Basically that they were put they put in a fire and it was in like actually a tourist cave near doc Kan, so this is not It was actually very different because I also have been in during the peace process.

I've also was in a press conference of the pik a K in two thousand fourteen or fifteen or some of that around that time, and that was very different because it was basically in the area that the PIKAK is activated.

It was in the area under their control, but this was under a different Kurdish parties control.

It's called the patriarch Union of Kurdistan.

So in Iraqi Kurdistan, you have two main parties, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and you have the Kurdistan Democratic Party.

So this cave where they did the ceremony, which is actually a tourist cave, it's in PK controlled area, so the ceremony was sort of protected by PUK security forces.

Yeah, and that's why.

Also the PUK media they got a lot of special access, and also there was the Turkish government media was there and also PIKK media was there and a lot of other Kurdish TV channels.

So it was a very interesting day.

Although I was not able to pass the checkpoint towards the ceremony because at the last moment, actually a few days before the ceremony, they.

Changed the access.

Supposedly it will be a very open ceremony, but then they said because of security reasons that they had to restrict the ceremony and there would be some TV screens and stuff.

And then I couldn't find the TV screens.

But that's another discussion.

But I also don't still understand what the security risk was.

Although a day before there was a drone strike on a Kurdish Peshmarga base, but it was like quite far away from that.

It was one hour away from the ceremony location.

Yeah, and it's an Iranian durned to jake great like a Shahi drone.

Yeah, So there have been like no group has these attacks.

But in the aftermath of the Twelve Day War, there have been a lot of drawn strikes in the Kurdistan region in various areas, including this morning on American Oil Company's facility in the Hawk Province and the day before that also on another field near Airbill.

So it has been quite tense yeh.

Which also probably affected the ceremony, although it's not really related to it.

Yeah, it's different.

So yeah, basically what was interesting.

So they have this peace process between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish state.

It's all started with a.

Call by a Turkish ultra nationalist leader which actually in the past actually called for executing of the Logeland.

The leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party has been in prison since the nineties.

He was actually surprisingly starting this peace process.

He was saying like we should have him talked in the parliament and call for disbanding the pik a K.

So he never came to the parliament, but he released messages from prison, and before the ceremony he released also a video message where he again focused on disarming basically, and then the ceremony basically came where you have thirty fighters, fifteen women, fifteen men, because the PIKK is all about woman equality, so that's why they did it fifty to fifty and they put their weapons in this fire.

So I think this also sacrifice a point of renewal because Kurts as a tradition, they have this Kurdish New Year every year on twenty one March where people jump over fires.

There's a lot of fireworks and the Kurdish and Atros is basically the start of a new beginning.

Yeah, so I think one of the reasons they chose these fires is because of this idea of a new beginning, and also the fact that when the PICAK started, there were people that sort of the creators of the PIKK.

There are actually some of them they burned themselves in prison in the in the Turkish prison.

Yeah, so it's also sort of related to that.

This sort of interlinks with a fire.

Yeah.

And you also saw that they carefully put the weapons in the fire, they didn't just throw them.

So it's it doesn't mean that they have completely given up on weapons, because they're still waiting on counter steps from the Turkish government.

Yeah, Like there has been fighting between p KK or hPG or how you want to say it, like hPG being like the technically the armed wing.

There's been fighting in southern Kurdistan, like the in Iraqi kig Kerdistan Autonomous Region of Iraq since the call for peace right, like, there has been ongoing fighting.

Yeah, I mean it's not really I would not say that it's like like actively fighting to take territory, yes, which was happening before.

So it's more that it's some like Turkish armies shooting artillery on the PIKK, and there was also one incident that the Pikk actually responded by drones.

But so far this didn't reach much in the Turkish or the Kurdish media.

I mean they were like, some of this artillery shelling costs some fires, so villagers in the areas it's a very hot summer now, they were trying to put out the fires.

But it was not like the active, active fighting that.

You had before, okay, And you know, since there was also a previous peace process.

I mean, there have been several peace processes since history between the Pikk and Turkey, but they never had a positive result.

And last one before this song was twenty fifteen.

And after that peace process broke down when two policemen were shot.

It's still unclear who shot those policemen.

The fighting erupted again and since then there have been heavy fighting, first in the Kurdish majority areas of Turkey until basically Turkey defeated Kurdish armed insurgents in the Kurdish cities in Turkey, and since then actually the fighting has moved more to Iraqi, Kurdistan, where the PIKK has also a historical presence.

Is the nineties.

But what you now have is that we have this new piece process started by this call of bats Shelley and the big AKA leader O Johan has said the time for armed struggle is over.

We don't want to have a Kurdish date.

So basically what now is happening is that the Kurdish Pikak and the Kurdish political counterpart in Turkey, they're basically waiting for steps by Turkey now to give them basically trust to continue this process.

And there was also a speech by.

The Turkish president Erdoland where he was also saying that it's the end.

We don't need anymore.

We need to talk.

It's not a time for weapons anymore.

We spend trillions of dollars on the war against the Pikak.

We had this a lot of martyrs and we sacrificed a lot, and it's now the time to stop the war and to do talking.

And he said they're gonna work with the Kurdish Party and this ultra Turkish nationalist party the MHP in the parliament and to also set up a commission to basically work on constitutional changes.

Yeah, let's take a break for adverts here and then we'll come back.

All right, we are back.

I guess we should talk briefly about like the nature of this, this call for piece.

You explained very well that this is probably a higher chance of success than that has ever been right, Like, we have the explicit buying of Ojulan, who hasn't been seen on video since the nineties, so like to have him making a video statement, it's quite significant.

I'm sure he's been seen on video, but like not not like making a speech, right, and then that we have like this this endorsement in the Turkish Parliament.

Like, I think there's been a lot of speculation about what led to this, and some of it's not particularly helpful.

But you know, you're very well educated on these matters.

What do you think this means for not just the PKK but the k c K.

I guess, like the Kurdish Freedom movement, that the different movements throughout kurtis down they are inspired by the political thought of Aujilan.

Well, I mean, until now, it's difficult to say what exactly is going to happen because the BIKK said they're going to go there will disarm.

But there's other groups which are linked to the big K in Iran Iran and in Syria and also for instance Sinjar, those groups said they were not Some of them have said publicly that we're not part of this process or they walk on the process, and others they didn't really say much to this group, haven't said really a lot.

Yeah, so it's also going to be interesting what will happen with those groups, with the Iranian Kurdish group and also with the Serian democratic forces in Syria that have a different situation also after the fall of so they have these stocks with Omascus.

And actually one of the reasons that the first peace process broke down was because that in actually at that time also that Turkey was a little bit afraid of this alliance between the Kurds and the Americans at the time against ISIS that was then rising up in Syria and attacked the Kurdish town of Coban in Syria, which created an alliance between the Kurds and the US against the ISIS terrorists militant jihadi group.

But now the situation actually is interesting.

So at that time the Curds were empowered in Syria, but now you can see there's a completely different situation now the opposite way.

So now you have the rebels that took over Damascus and they are now the government run by Jiulani his previous name, who's now called himself antal Shada his real name.

So they now have a new Islamist controlled government and Damascus, and there's a lot of tension between the curts in Syria and Theamascus.

So this could also risk basically this peace process with Turkey because the SDF they have also ideological ins with the pik Ak, so it's also interesting how this will work out.

So in the past it was also always like the fighting between Turkey and the Pikak could threaten the SDF Assyria, but sort of the other way around that fighting between possible fighting in the future between Damascus and the Curtain Syria, it could threaten the peace process in Turkey and Erdolan.

He made this very big speech not a very long time ago where he mentioned that Turkey doesn't only want piece for the curse in Turkey and for Alla Whites also a religious minority in Turkey, but he was also talking that he wants piece for the curse in Syria and also in Iraq, that they should also live like a prosperous life in Syria, and that they have good relations with the Sieran government.

So I think that's also a very interesting point that you don't see in many articles, that there's like this very big interlinkage between all these different tissues.

Yeah, and I think Turkey has maintained that the SDF is the peak KK, right, just with like a different badge, which is not the case.

They share a lot of politics, but they're distinct.

Turkey also has like extensive proxy forces in Syria.

Right, there have been fighting with the SDF since I guess late well, I mean for years, but like in an expanded sense, since since the beginning of the fall of the Asad regime that we saw like probably seven or eight months ago.

Now, it's a very complex situation.

It's also as we record this today on the fifteenth, Syria is a very diverse country and add to all the groups you mentioned, there is currently fighting between the government and Dru's militias.

Right, can you explain a little bit about the situation there and the relevance of that.

Well, I mean the Druze they are a religious community that are not same as the Sunni Muslims, and they control their own area on the border the town called Sweda and the villages around it, and also they have some areas in Damascus where they have their presence.

Yeah, so the Drews basically during the time where.

The Assad regime still was in power, they didn't really like fight very heavily against the Assad regime in the beginning, but they didn't allow the Assad regime to recruit military recruit people in their area and they sort of tried to keep the regime out of their area.

So during the civil war they were sort of semi autonomous, but not officially.

And actually in the last years before.

The fall Offasad, they were like a big protests in the Drews areas in support of the Syrian Revolution and against the Assaut regimes.

So they were like very big protests in the Druze areas against the Assaut regime.

So when the Assad regime was militarily weakening and the rebels from the other side of Syria they were attacking the Assad regime, the Drews they also joined the fight and they marched together with the Southern rebels.

They marched on to Moscus, and they were actually the first one that entered the Mouscus, not not the ahmtal Shada or the Hts.

Actually the first ones that entered the Moscus was the Southern rebels and the Drews.

But but there's this thing.

Is that the Moscus wants to have this this new regime or the new government in the Muscus.

They want to have this very centralized system, so they don't want the Drews to run their own armed groups and they have their own sort of local autonomy, so they have They have been fighting before between the Drews and the new authorities in Syria in areas near Theamascus, but there was like a ceasefire and the fighting stopped.

But recently there's also like historical tensions between these Arab Bedouin tribes and the Drews in the area.

So these areas are quite mixed.

So there's actually this this recent conflict.

They started when Biduan tribes they they robbed like a merchant who was a Druce and then after that they were like mutual kidnapping like tensions between both.

And then basically although the Moscus said they were neutral, the Mascus started to support these Bedouin groups against the Drus and started marching on on Sueda, which is the the Drew stronghold on the border.

And so actually there have been like.

A few days, not even a few days, but have been like a short period of fighting now.

And actually Damascus, they they entered this druze town of Sueda and they actually said, okay, we control the town now, and now we're going to withdraw the Serian army and then the internal security force is going to control the city.

That very shortly after Israel started bombing heavily the cern armed forces of the new Sirn government and then the Drews armed groups they sort of pushed back and they pushed out this internal security force out of the city.

And now the Drews are, according to many reports, back in control of the city of Zuida.

And now you see that just like what happened with the Alla Whites when there was this Asad regime remnants that they had uprising against the new authorities.

And then they were like these rebels.

They were mobilized with mosks all over Syria and they went to the coast areas and they defeated those Asad regime remnants, but they killed also a lot of civilians some reports over fifteen hundred people.

So what you now see is that the Damascus is against mobilizing those people with.

Mosques to march on Zueda.

But the difference is with the other whites is that Israel also has Drews, so there's also pressure on the Israeli government to support the drew So it's not only because of their strategic interests, it's also because there are Drews living in Israel itself that also have joined the Israeli army, so they're also pushing Israel for taking action.

So you saw that today, like Israel, they took a lot of they carried out a lot of air strikes, and the Drews that are basically back in control of most of the Sueda city, not of the whole area.

But the fight is not all real yet.

And then you also have different rustractions.

Some of them they have better relations with Damascus, the majority of them don't.

So now we're going to see if there's going to be fighting, if the fighting is going to increase again.

We've seen our reports as of that the HDS or the the Moscus government forces that are using drones strikes by themselves on RUS forces, so they're using basically the drones that they used to overthrow the us UT regime.

Okay, so yeah, that's the situation.

Yeah, I think the world stopped looking at Syria.

I mean, I guess the world stop looking at Syria a while ago, like really, after the defeat of the Territorial Calipate.

It's been much harder to sell stories in big newspapers in the United States.

But yeah, it's by no means, like the fighting is not over and it leaves their SDF Western Kurdistan branch of this Kurdish movement right, like in as you said, a fairly perilous condition.

Right, the Damascus wants to centralize.

I think they want to They don't want to have independent they don't want to have like federated autonomy.

The United States seems to be, at least the United States envoy to Damascus seems to be making statements that suggests that, like the only way forward is through centralization.

On one hand, we have the PKK alene Gan arm.

The other hand, we have the SDF in its difficult position.

Where does this leave, like the Kurdish Freedom Movement.

I think this has been the thing that a lot of people all over the world have looked up to.

Right, people have especially rich Ava as this example that people could build something, a place where freedom could exist in the middle of this terrible war in Syria.

Do you think the movement's like in danger now?

Well, I mean you have this new government in Syria.

Actually, and in initially to Trump administration was quite reluctant to have relations with the new authorities in Damascus because they were I mean, Joolani used to be on a Amachada, used to be on a terrorist sanctioned list.

Yeah, there was a bounty for him at one point, it wasn't there.

Yeah, But I think there was like a very intensive love being by some Gulf states and Turkey to basically remove the sanctions on not a shot at Jolani, but also remove sanctions on Syria that the economic sanctions that were actually were on the Asaturgy.

So I think the Trump administration changed their position, and also a new ambassador for Syria and Turkey was appointed, so he was not only the bassador Turkey but also for Syria, and he's basically echoing a lot of the points of the new authorities in Damascus that they was talking about one state, one army, one days, one days, and the SEF should be integrated and blah blah blah.

So there was there.

Was also recently there were talks between Theamascus and the STF because in March they reached an agreement with Western support and they were trying to basically make them or finalized agreement in recently a few days ago, they had these talks in Damascus and the French were there, and the Brits were there, and Americans were there.

But this agreement was not implemented, it didn't lead to anything, so it was not really it didn't really work very well because the Moscus is insisting on this centralized state.

And I was just listening to Kurdish sharing Kurdish official and she was also saying like, we don't want to separate from Syria, but we want to have some form of local councils and a decentralized Syria and not like a centralized Syria.

And she was also talking about what happened to the Jews, that it's not a very good example for the future of Syria.

Yeah, so I think definitely what you're saying that there is a sort of a threat because in the past he was very supportive of the SDF in the fight against Isis, although they didn't support so much their political project, but they supported them because they fought Isis.

And also they were keeping out Iranian backed malicious from areas like the resor.

But now you don't have me run anymore.

In Syria, they were completely kicked out after the fall of the Acet regime.

All these militias they have been disbanded or hiding or some of them actually now being used by the Muscus.

Against the Druze.

So doubt that argument is not there anymore that you okay, we have the SDF, they keep out the I ran from the oil fields.

Yeah, you could still argue you have still have the fight against ICES, I mean ICES.

Is still fred.

Yeah, but the Curts don't have that same leverage anymore as is in the past that they said, okay, we're the main ones fighting ISS, we keep out the run from these areas because now you have THEMSCUS.

The Moscus said, why the kurt should do that, Like, let's us take over those prisons and the camps where you have these thousands of Isis families and ICES prisoners, and we don't need the Curds to run the ICES.

Well, we can do that for you.

So I think that's now, Like the big issue is that the US seems to be more supporting the Moscus at these diplomatically than the SDF, although military speaking, the support is still going on for the SDF until twenty twenty six in the last Entergon budget which was not accepted yet they're still like millions of support for the SDF to to maintain the prisons and this.

Kind of stuff.

So I think it's it's it's a.

Difficult situation, yeah, that these prisons like our whole and others, right, like they there, I guess kind of the only leverage the FDF has with the United States where they along with the continuing and somewhat increasing ISIS attacks, but that's still much less of a threat to the US than it was ten years ago, say, right, Like, it's it's much less of a significant thing.

So, like what is the status of those prisons that currently they're still guided by the SDF, right, but the people aren't familiar.

Can you just explain what those prisons consist of and like who's in there and who's guiding them?

Well, so IS has credit this jihadi state between twenty fourteen and twenty nineteen, but then the Kurdish led SDF.

They basically took most of these areas under ISIS control.

They defeated basically ISIS with the support of the US, so they lost the territory.

And the last battle basically was for a small town called Bajus and the Rezor.

So you had all these ISIS families there, and also there were like several ISIS foreign members that were captured, so you have the wives of ISIS fighters and you also have IIS fighters themselves that were captured during these battles.

So all these people they were brought to camps.

So I was there in Syria many times.

For instance, during the battle for Raka, which was used to be the capital of the ISIS Caliphate, they were like bringing the ISIS families and women to a camp in I know Lisa.

But after that they moved most of those people to actually move almost all of them to the Roche camp and all hold camp in northern Syria in the Hassaka province.

And also that includes foreigners.

You can imagine people from Uzbek Kistan, from Uihus from China, people from Turkey, French people, European people, so it's full of a lot of different people, and then the majority are actually Iraqis and Syrians, so the sea they have this foul they a majority.

Like a lot of people in those camps, they have been repatriated or they have to return to their homes.

So I think those camps like a whole camp, like the prison.

It's not a prison, it's the camp.

I think like the number of people that are basically decreased almost fifty percent, but there are still a lot of people inside.

But the prisons you have still all these Isis spiders that were in prison during the war, and a lot of them are foreigners, including Dutch another country.

You know, some countries they have returned there, they have returned their people there.

So we have some people, you know, America they took back most of the families and the fighters and they prosecute them in the US.

But you also have countries that didn't bring back the fighters, for instance, only brought back the woman.

So that's the situation that all those people are still there.

And it's actually what you mentioned that it's like one of the big reasons for support for the SDF, and it's also one of the reasons that the SDF is getting millions to keep those prisons in good shape because they have been also attims by isis to free those prisoners from those prisons.

Basically, yeah, in successful attempts in twenty twenty, twenty twenty two, I think it was when they had the last like major prison escape, which, yeah, it's a bad thing for our world if if all those all those people get out, and like you say, lots of European nations, I think it's something that I wish Americans had paid more attention to, because I think that European nations have done the United Kingdom being a paramount example, is like rendered some of those people stateless, right that they've removed in this case, Shmima Bagoom is probably the most well known example.

Right, they've removed her British passport and now she doesn't have a state.

She's stateless.

It's something that the US has recently done to people living in the United States, and like it does feel something as if you know that the president has been established and now it's being carried out, and it's obviously deeply concerning to see it happening here after like it happened there that wish people had opposed it when it did.

Well I mean the US, in the US itself in Syria was very a big advocate of bringing the people out, Yes, it was, Yeah, because it will make it easier for.

Them to withdraw.

So they were actually pushing those countries that didn't want to bring back there are nationals to basically bring them back, like Western countries, the UK and others.

Yeah, but some of these countries were actually forced by court orders or others.

But a lot of these counties were actually quite reluctant to bring them back because they're afraid of like security risk and stuff, or that they will be released quite quickly and then they would again like be active and jihadist activity.

Yeah.

Yeah, so US was very so.

I remember that the US was even offering like members of this Coalition against ISIS which was created in twenty fourteen.

Like she said, if you cannot bring them yourself, I mean we can, our military can help you to bring those people out.

If you think that you it's it's difficult for you to go to Syria and pick those nationals up from your accounts.

Yeah, yeah, been pretty unsuccessful, like in a lot of well in some European cases they have, but still, yeah, lots of them utterly refusing to do it.

I wonder then as we finish up here, right, like we spoke about this PKK disarmament, obviously it's a symbolic disarmament, right there is still I don't quite know how big the hPG is, but it's much bigger than thirty people.

And then the weapons they laid down were like a very small percentage of their weapons.

Were they just burning like kalashnikov?

So did they burn like larger weapons too.

No, it was just their personal collagicals basically.

Okay, yeah, I mean it was also like more symbol like symbolic ceremony, like we are willing to give up.

But the thing is that also it's still not clear what happened to those thirty people.

Are they going to go back to Turkey, That's what I wanted to ask, Yeah, are.

They going to stay in Iraqi Curdistan and find a job there?

Because you have people like that in Iraqi Kurdistan that used to be with the pigger k and that now they work in I don't know, in media or construction sector or entertainment sector.

You have people like that, But there's not much clarity on that.

But I think also that's because they're waiting on Turkey to make possible constitutional steps, you know, to see what Turkey is going to do, because for instance, Turkey could offer an amnesty or the kind of things, then those people could return.

And also some of them were saying like now it's the end of weapons, but we still want to be involved in.

Politics, right through the political party.

So it's also possible that those people want to go back to Turkey and basically take part in Kurdish politics or Turkish politics to be more corrected in Turkey.

So I think it's a little bit too early to say what happened with those people, because I remember also if I very much corrected, they're also having peace process that basically people have given basically went to the border and give themselves up to Turkey.

But that didn't happen now, so it's a bit different than in the past.

Yeah, but it seems that the Turkish government was very happy with the ceremony.

They didn't complain about it.

So okay, yeah, yeah, I wondered what happened.

So those guerrillas or former guerrillas I suppose, who laid down their weapons at the end of the ceremony, they just kind of returned to the mountains or whatever.

We don't know what will happen with them now.

That's that's not clear to me because there are still some unanswered questions like what you mentioned now, like what those thirty people did, Yeah, what those people are going to do now?

So right, there's a lot of people, and it's a lot of people, some of whom have spent decades as cadra of the revolution, right they have they haven't really known life outside of the revolution for a very long time.

Yeah, so it's so a bit difficult for them to return to civilian life because I mean because they probably joined when they're quite young, and I think I was also the profiles of the people of the thirty people will burn their weapons that a lot of them they joined in the nineties.

Wow, so they have been in they have been in the mountains for a very long time.

Yeah, I mean some of them were young, but there were also older people among them.

But definitely it's going to be a question what will happen with those people, although I mean they were also talked that some leadership of the armed Pikak movement might go to Europe and get asylum there.

Yeah, Instead of going back to Turkey.

Yeah, you know, you have also a lot of courage the asport or organizations active there, so they could like basically embrace those people.

Yeah, but they're still listed as a foreign terrorist organization in most two Yeah exactly.

I mean, for instance, they probably would want to have something like what the Syrian president have now Ahmatoshada that he used to be listed as a sanctioned as a terrorist organization and then to have that removed.

But I'm sure that that's not on the table anytime soon.

But that happened with the HTS.

But also it t happened for instance much Hulk and Uranian opposition group they also got delisted.

So it's technically as possible.

But I think we are like in a very early stage of the peace process.

So that's why I think it's going to take time before we have more clarity and some of these answers that questions you ask, now, I mean most of the people that attended the ceremony didn't have an answer to that too, because there was not much clarity on that because it was just a ceremony.

There was like a statement.

Journals were not able to talk to most of the journalists.

I mean there was like some statement in some Kurdish media, but in general, like they were not able to talk to those fighters, like now, what are you going to do?

There was not like access to those thirty people that burned their weapons, so it was like sort of quite very much controlled ceremony.

It was very difficult to report on it basically, which is very different from the previous peace process when it was much more open.

But that time there was not like forty fighters giving up their weapons.

They just had like sort of a press conference, is what we I'm gonna do?

And that was very different than what happened now.

Yeah, yeah, it gets it's a big just to keep watching.

It's fascinating to watch it unfold.

Like I was in Curdish Down a year and a half ago, and it is competed, it's seen.

The situation is completely different likewise in the whole of Syria.

So yeah, it's fascinating to watch.

I'm sure if people want to know more about it.

You're very good at reporting on this.

You often post on Twitter about the situation, and you write for a number of outlets.

So how can people follow your work?

Well, the best place to follow my workers on Twitter on x X because I'm quite active there, but also I write for places like Middle East I something thanks like watching the Institute New a Liance Institute.

I also write for a Kurdish magazine called Kurtist thank Chronicle, and also I pitched for other websites, so I'm quite active on different issues, but mostly focused on things related to Kurts, mostly stuff related to Iran, Turkey, Siria.

It's inter Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us.

We really appreciate your insight.

You're welcome, my friend.

It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here.

Listened directly in episode descriptions.

Thanks for listening.