Of the law and Order franchises.

SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on These are our stories, done done, that's messed up.

In sv podcast, We're coming to not Live.

I'm Lisa Trager, Never Live.

We're coming to you never once Live.

I'm Karaklank, your other host.

You know what this is all about, hopefully by now, it's SVU recabs, it's true crime, it's interviews with people from the show.

And it's also chatting what's going on.

We're bursting with things to talk about today.

Am Dannai.

Listen, I have the night of my life.

I barely I'm barely holding on.

We're coming to you live.

No.

November fifth, it's the day after election day, and you know, we had a little I wouldn't say people are saying blue wave.

I'd say it's like a blue it's a blue little like you know, it's a nice little rip.

Curl or whatever.

But Prop fifth, you know I saw that.

I mean, no, it is good.

We got to celebrate the moments, the moments we have a day.

We got Abigail Spanberger in Virginia.

We got somebody in New Jersey and we got mom Donnie in New York is happening, So I'm excited to see what he does.

Yeah, someone try to be like but now it's time to I go shut up tomorrow like we're getting drunk.

He fucking loser, But I okay.

So I went into not Natalie Poulomidis's show Weird and Blown Away.

She has been working on in La Forever as a work in progress.

I never got a chance to go see it.

Son.

Of course, there's an eighty year old man next to me.

We start talking.

I go, you're not gonna like this because he said he hated o'mary.

He loves shucked.

I go, sir, this isn't for you.

What are you doing here?

They go to fifty plays a year, They moved to New York for the culture.

They rent three of the kids.

I mean, I know his whole life story, and we hated o'mary.

And we're at Natalie Palamedes.

But I heard him laughing.

I did hear him laughing at the end.

I go, you liked it, didn't you?

He goes, She's clever.

I go, the most talented person I've ever seen in my life, layers upon layers.

I like, can't even believe it.

But it's sold out.

The run's sold out before it even started, so like, I don't even know if any of you will be able to see it.

She should do a giant like Beacon Show or town Hall.

I wonder, what but this, I mean, it's the eight twenty.

It's a cool venue.

She's the Queen of the clowns.

You know how this started.

I was looking at the program, which I love, and he goes, ah, there's nothing in there.

I go, what are you talking about?

That's always started talking?

I go, there's so much in here, so much depth.

Anyways, it's like she plays two characters at once, Like the way she moves her body and the hand and the flipping and flopping and every p so many surprises, the way she uses I'm like blown away.

I've never seen anything like it.

And I don't like clown.

I would say I'm anti clown, and I am like, if this is clown, I like, she's.

No, she's the Queen of the clowns.

I mean, for anybody that doesn't know her, she's in the progressive commercials.

She's got a little bit of like like that, I would say.

Kind of like high lice in the in the par commercials.

She was just in this Haunted Hotel cartoon.

I wyah, she's like a cartoon Powerpuff Girls, powder Puff Yeah.

Yeah, she's got a great voice, and she's funny, and she's in the You would know her from these progressive commercials if you're not into comedy and clowning specifically.

But she's really talented and she's a great she's a really nice person.

I like her a lot.

Yeah, And I walked out, checked my phone.

We got a Zoron with Victory.

I met three friends at one of my favorite bars in the city, established in eighteen seventeen, and we went after it, but he wasn't playing on the TV.

We were sitting in the back of the bar and it was like but then.

A woman came in and she had zor On stuff and then we started connecting.

Then the waitresses, so then it was like the waitresses are happy.

We found out the bartender is in charge of the TVs was pissed and so he purposely wouldn't play it.

And she told me later like complaints all night and people were leaving, but yeah, but I'm like.

The bartender in New York City was preferred the sex pest.

I'm so, I'm so shocked.

It's also like, this is where I saw Dean Winters once you know, come in, he's a regular.

It's like it is it's old timey Irish.

So for me, I'm like, it could give SVU cop bar, but it's not.

And then we had the most gorgeous waitresses.

I vaka sodas tequila, tequila tequila.

So then the woman that came in, I go, let me get you at tequila shot.

I'm feeling good, right, So the waitress comes up to me, goes, she is shocked by your generosity.

I go, it's not that big of a deal, Like she couldn't believe it.

Then she gives me this on her way out.

Her friend made these ceramic before there were a there was official merch and I go, bitch, you gave it to the right girl, like this seramic.

It's a ceramic nyc zoron for mayor pin or like gorgeous.

I told her, I'm like, you gave it to the right girl.

I'm like, this will be treasured.

But because she was from Staten Island, she goes, oh, only my burrow didn't, but they were excited.

Yeah, so it was like really hard to get.

But then then so yeah, I just started getting hammered, dude, and it wouldn't stop.

And then I I comic I didn't know did the tonight show, and so I met up with his friends and then I brought over into a different Irish pub that was open till four and I don't know, I don't know, Yeah, I really don't.

But it was just a thrill.

It was a thrill to be out fun.

It was like, it's cool, it's cool, it's a really good day at celebrate.

We'll see what happens.

Our millennium, our millennium, millennial king.

Yeah yeah.

And then Prop fifty pass in California, which is exciting too.

That was our only job and we did it.

So I'm happy about that.

No more sex pests.

And he just keeps dropping the mic Andrew Combe like I will never utter your name again.

I'm like, okay.

When he uh conceded, he said, Zora and mom, Dommy, I didn't, like, you can't even say your opponent's name in the concession, Like it's so it's so crazy, like come on guys.

But yeah, well, well okay, listen, good work you did.

You did tease me?

Wait or should we do this?

Okay?

So in Baltimore, someone so, what was in my envelope?

Someone gave me.

It's like Benson in the eras Taylor Swift kind of card for me.

And then inside was a sticker that said the life of an SVU Fan.

So this card that was so cool.

I didn't know where you got that.

I'm opening this via zoom for them.

So someone in Baltimore's an envelope that says Kara and Casey on it, and she's opening it.

Okay.

The front says that's messed up and it's a picture of iced tea.

I love it.

Cool.

Oh you guys got Life of an SVU fan too.

Oh so we got stickers and they're in the they're in the tailor Life of a Showgirl font.

This is cool.

Yeah, I love the keep that ship up.

They're a note or anything with.

Big fan of the pod.

Keep that ship up, take care Aloha?

All right, thank you, thank you to whoever sent us that.

I think Aloha Aloha is the name, or maybe her name is Alona.

It's either a loona or Aloha aloha, we love you.

Thank you so much for the sticker and the car.

That's cute.

You should put that on your fridge.

Thanks guys.

I was thinking I would keep it.

I love I love a little secret note.

I really thought there would be more about last night, but I guess I got fucking just bombed.

I was just buying shots for strangers.

I was I love that.

I love that you're spreading joy around New York.

It was a good vibe, I would say, out in the out in the city.

Wait, so you saw Barbarian?

Okay, I want to know everything.

Yeah, how do you feel?

Last week before Halloween, we had a night where we were home, both of us, and I was like, you know what.

He was like, do you want to watch a scary movie?

And I was like, you know what Lisa's been telling me, I got to watch Barbarian.

I gotta watch this.

I got to see what all the hype is about.

So two years later, I watched fucking Barbarian.

I I mean, I'm not as into it as as as you are.

Sorry, just right, okay, okay, okay, I were you scared of?

Yes?

It was a lot like weapons where I thought the first half was fucking perfect, suspenseful.

I didn't know what was going on.

I was like, I was like, what you know?

But I also, you know, I'm always I'm like, why would you do that?

Why would you go in?

Why?

Like you know, I was just like, so, why wouldn't you put a dresser in front of the door, Like I was so like, you know, doing the thing people do.

At horror movies.

But then.

Spoiler alerts fast forward if you haven't seen Barbarian, because I know everybody got mad at us for spoiling weapons that had been out in the theaters for one calendar month.

But I just I wasn't buying the inbred superhuman strength creature that lives in the tunnels.

That wasn't oh vibing for me.

Like she's if it's not supernatural, right, Like it's not supernatural.

She's just a product of being inbred and held underneath the tunnel.

But she's also probably has barely had any like as been eating dirt her whole life, but can literally break a person's smash up man's head into a wall to pulp like in two seconds.

I don't know, you know, I'm always like I'm a skeptic.

I'm just like really like I don't know, I was not.

And what about when the guy was in the back, what about when the guy was in the back horrifying?

I mean that was s for you?

Like that was s for you?

Like I also hid him to the crime.

But do you don't feel like Justin Long was perfect, like such a fake thing?

Like he was great.

They treated her at the I mean, and with her, don't you just feel well?

And I thought she was an amazing actress.

I thought it was shot so great.

I actually liked watching it a lot, Like I liked it.

I just was like, no, the head smashup top is so surprising.

I was like, what like?

And I liked the flashback.

I almost wanted a little bit.

You wanted more crime, more of that, like hurt when.

I was that crazy, someone goes I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, but I didn't realize Hannibal Lecter wasn't based on someone real.

I gos okay, I's okay, there's cannibals honest mistake.

Yeah, honest was a genius Cannibal.

Yeah, Like so I I was like, yeah, I was like, wow, this is crazy and I thought the justin long and the whole cancelation of it and like it definitely is like amazing feminist messages and stuff that I really liked.

I she just kept trying to help him, and I'm like, get out of their bitch.

Yes, that's how I was, like, you're going back, and then the cops like not believing her made my blood boil like I wanted.

It reminded me of It reminded me of Jeffrey Dahmer's victim that got out and ran up to the cops, you know, like, oh, but.

It was freaky.

It was freaky.

I was just like those fucking tunnels.

I was like, they keep going, but also like the bloody root, like with the chair, mattress and just some it's like not a big deal.

What are you so scared of?

It's like this is the.

And the guy's like I was just so down there and check it out.

It's probably no big deal.

I was like, I hate everything about like this is so crazy.

Yeah, he like really knows how to do suspense and like makes you feel frustrated.

Yes, yes, the frustration is very real.

It was just challenged yourself because it is really scary.

Yeah, it was not and I had to close my eyes a couple of times during the breastfeeding.

I didn't love that.

I didn't love that.

Also, like the guy that's in the basement, why of all days, Like that's the day he killed?

Oh?

Is it because like they found him?

Like doesn't he like haven't people gotten down there before?

And she just kills them or takes care of them or whatever, Like he's like, today's the day, like and shoots himself.

Like I don't know why is it because Justin gave him the gun?

Did he have the gun?

I don't remember this.

He had the gun the whole time.

Yeah, because it was like Justin looked at the video and was like, oh my god, and then he was like bye back you know.

So I don't know, no, but he wanted just so long to watch him, right, I guess.

I'm like, dude, the way that you're the way that you're living, I don't know why you haven't done this a while ago, you know, like any tapes.

I forgot about the tapes.

The tapes are horrific.

I mean that's like the SVU of it all, Like the underground, the keeping people prisoner, Like you.

Know how easy it was yeah, and then everyone's like ooh, this crazy bitch, but no one's like that, like rapist.

How'd she get that way?

Yeah?

I didn't like that.

The poor guy that was the only one that helped her also had to get mothered or whatever happened when you going up for that thing is called.

Oh, I'm not going to Australia, so they won't let me in.

I don't know.

I'm sorry, guys, it's canceled.

You're you know, I probably was supposed to be in Brisbane tomorrow.

She's really trying Australia, just so you know.

She's been really doing all the paperwork and they know.

They want to fuck me.

It's because then they got everything and then they're like, actually want these things too, And I'm like, again, you are not leaving me enough time to go to the well.

You can't get it done.

They don't want me there.

I know when I'm not wanted, and that is there.

It's that's fucking nuts.

You're stimulating the economy.

What's wrong with them?

Wait?

How is Halloween for your children?

Oh?

I was cute.

And for me ten am I met my kids school.

I'm working my ass off, putting a trunk or treat together until two thirty.

Okay, so trunk er treat is like we all did cars, like you decorate you open like the trunk of your car, and then like you decorate it with a theme.

So like one grade did Target.

It was so fucking cute, like they had they all the moms wore red shirts with like Target name tags that someone made for them.

They had a little Target check out thing.

It was like so cute.

And then they were the first one.

So all the kids got Target bags that's where they collected all their candy.

And then Oscar's class we did K Pop Demon Hunters.

It was very cute.

And then Rosie's class we turned our car into a Pikachu and it looked really cute.

I'll post a picture.

It looked really cute, and we had like poke.

Balls and it was all.

And then one did Monsters Ink and the parents like dressed up in like the white the white outfits with the hard hats and they scream test.

It was so cute.

They had doors, like people really went for it.

And oh and then another grade did Saga Boys and they had like a full fog machine like like you know, are you have you watched ke Pop Dean Hunters or heard about it at all.

No, I really can't believe I haven't.

I mean this song, but isn't it is the song?

Is that it?

We're going up?

Yeah, that's why I want to hear that.

Yeah, and all the kids in my life.

I feel dressed up like a K pop demon hunter this every wolloween.

We did also get a photo of Casey's daughter.

Oh my God knocked me over with a picture of his tiny teletubby.

Wait, did you guys tell a tubby too?

We had.

I didn't have a full teletubby outfit, but I did have the tinky winky.

On my head.

Oh that's oh.

I thought I thought you were going to say the purse.

You didn't have a purse.

You have to have the purse.

I know, I know, but it was it was great Oscars, Glinda costume slapped Rosie, you know, was stitch.

It was boiling hot.

I'll never get used to the.

Fact that Halloween in la is like always eighty eight degrees and like sweaty.

I know I'm aging because the way I'm looking at leaves lately, I like can't believe it.

I go now, this is beautiful fall.

I go, this is fall, and I got to take the Amtrak and it's a Baltimore So.

The leaves I just couldn't be.

You went on a full leaf peep, you went mid atlantic leaf peep.

I mean it's so true.

You hit a certain age and you're just like, wow, foliage amazing, Like it's really amazing.

Yeah, we don't get that really, but we do get boiling hot October.

So but then and Rosie just loves wearing a hot one piece.

She loves wearing a hot fucking one piece.

Man.

She just likes to be cozy, basically wearing pajamas with ears.

And they had a blast.

We want trick or treating.

I let them stay out late because it was a Friday.

Oscar put himself to bed at like nine o'clock.

Oscar's like I gotta go home, Like he was like, get me out of here.

Oh my god, that's so funny.

Halloween's out of Friday.

The kids really got to party.

Huh oh yeah, and it's on a Saturday next year, right, Yeah, that's a time leapier.

Sometimes it's awesome.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

The cellar stars of my show, I would say, is a couple showed up as Clarence Thomas and Jinny Thomas.

Oh yeah, that's great, Yeah yeah yeah, And then she was she was Clarence and he was Ginny, and I would say, they're the winners of my show costumes for sure.

Oh.

I went to Julio Torres's party with the costume contest, like the full Halloween, and I will say the winner of the costume contest, I mean, people are so creative.

But I did look at a Frankenstein and I was like, wow, that's a hot person.

It was Adam Lambert.

I saw later and the press and I was like cool.

I was like, star studded, cool stuff.

But the winner did go viral on TikTok, but I got to see it in person.

And the winner of the contest was the Princess Diana Beanie Baby in the revenge dress.

In the Revenge dress.

Somebody was just telling me about that.

I was there, Like to be in the presence of that, I can't, I can't.

It was so cool.

That's and then there was so very funny this tooth fairy wand with this giant tooth, I mean gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, and people performed and did split.

I mean, it was like really cool.

It was a really cool event.

Oh but you're gonna love this.

So one of my friends, every time I walked up to her, she was she kept walking away from me.

So I was like, I wonder if she's mad at me?

Like did I do something?

I wonder And then my other friend was like, oh my god, she kind of said something to me like I don't know what to do.

I feel like she it's weird, like he was having issues.

And then we find out the bitch is on ketamine.

And it's like, what a lesson in life?

What a lesson?

You never know what people are going through.

The bitches on horse drinks like it, like, no one is mad.

I wonder if she's mad at me.

No, she's just literally been dosed.

That's so funny.

But people are so creative.

I love Halloween and I feel like Halloween is the best time of year on Instagram, like I want to look at everyone's costumes.

What did you wear?

I will look at it like I want to know, and I want to join the contest next year.

I want to go for it.

I want to do something super.

I was inspired.

Someone came as you know Rihanna's Instagram the drawing.

Yeah, someone came as the drawing.

It was like white Instagram avatar.

Yeah, that's so funny.

Like people are just so clever and cool.

So well.

Jared and I were to board teenage employees working at Halloween Horror Nights.

I like to act out.

We wore cloaks and had flashlights and we were just looking bored.

And you were.

Inspired when you went to Hornet.

I've never got Yeah, I have not.

I want to go to like six Flags.

I want to ride some coasters.

I haven't done that in a while.

Yeah, it's cool.

I mean Universal doesn't have as many good rides, but six Flags rocks.

I love six Flags.

All right, should we get started?

Yeah, but I feel like there was something else, Like I do, I really do, but I guess not.

But I'll be in Hartford, Connecticut, in Montreal, Canada, Hartford.

Yeah, is your niece gonna come?

No?

No one cares about me.

They don't.

No one fucking cares.

Oh my god.

Oh yeah.

So you know, we were recording yesterday and my dad called, and so basically he's like he wants to he wants to keep one of the street cats, the newer one right, and my mom is against it.

So he wants me to manipulate her and call her and just bring up the cat as often as I can.

And I have to call like the ve like I have to figure stuff out, Like he's trying to get this cat.

Wow, emotional warfare, bringing you involve, getting you involved.

I want us to get the cat.

She's as cute, she's cute, she likes.

Has he named it?

Has he named it her?

No?

No I haven't.

I didn't even ask yet, But I got to name her.

Once you personalize the cat, it will be harder to let her go.

No, they all know because the black cat has a named to get.

I get the sentiment.

I get the Senate.

She's just so cute.

I haven't met her yet.

She's so cute.

I only get photos.

But I'm glad he's I want them to have a cat.

Yeah, so why is your mom so against it?

She?

You know, I think they're still traumatized from Manya passing.

Oh yeah, I'm just dom and gloom.

She goes, what's gonna happen to the cat when I die?

And it's like, we'll take the cat.

Like there's a lot of us that'll take the cat, but also can you just stay alive, like that's also an option.

You can also just outlive the cat, like I don't understand.

Oh my god, the doom, the gloom.

That's so funny.

Oh my lord.

All right, well guys, one more thing before we start the episode.

For today, we do have new merge.

We have a new T shirt hot off the press.

It is one of those classic Amper sand T shirts, but it's all the ways that Lisa mispronounces Lois.

We've got a Lois Lewis Louise shirt that is up.

It's so cute and funny and I'm excited.

And it's an inside I've been waiting for an inside base on.

This is gonna be a conversation starter.

You're gonna wear this around and people are gonna go, what is this shirt?

And you're gonna be like, listen, there's this podcast and it's I love that about it.

It's like it's just for like our listeners, like like people like we understand it, and I think it's it's really funny and it's cute.

I like the color scheme.

So you can go to the www.

Dot exactly right store dot com or you can just go to that's messed up live dot com that has our shop link, which will take you right there, get it ordered and we drop merch.

Or like, how about this one, I go, We've already designed it.

We already had one because people are like suspicious and annoyed.

I go, sure, but we got a lose vicious and annoyed.

We can look into for a New Year drop.

You can do that for New Year drop up.

For now, We've already had Lois Louise.

I forget the other ones.

There's a lot more than imagine, and they're they're all on the shore and the.

Colorway is cool.

I like the color.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

So Mono, get on over there, pick one up, support our show and we love you guys.

Let's get this show on the road.

Right.

We're at season eighteen, episode thirteen.

Jeans All right, fresh Sidney Sweeney has good jeans.

That's what this episode's about.

Maddie with the fatty Maddie.

Yeah, I remember her real last name.

I like her, but she her tour poster stuff is bad jeans.

It's like Maddie has bad jeans, but it's the same kind of photos.

And I think it's so good and funny.

Okay, So we're at a busy bar.

Rock music is playing.

It's a divey vibe, I would say.

And there's a little creep and I know him, Michael Torpi and he was a CEO on Orange Is the New Black and also in an episode post Rage season twenty six, episode twenty two, and he was in Deep, so that's exciting.

He was a lobbyist slash Catherine's love interest for three episodes in season four.

And he's a creep for sure, clear as day.

But another creep pops, so you know, Jessica, our bartender is really getting hit on Olens and you could tell that this the second creep, is always trying to hit on Jessica.

She does not like it.

She knows his name.

She's like, Rodney, leave me the fuck alone.

He's like, let's go to dinner.

We can go to Polo bar no boo, and she's like, I work, I don't want to do this.

He goes, what about marry me, take me to pair or not take me to Paris.

I'll take you to Paris.

I'll take you to Paris.

Then our og guy is like, leave her alone, and she's not into it, and Rodney is like, you shut the fuck up.

So the men stare each other down creep versus creep, And now she's closing the bar, she's locking it up.

It's the end of the night and uhh.

Rodney is there waiting for her.

He's like, I'm a good guy, just give me a chance.

And when he touches her, she's like, don't fucking touch me.

He's like, relax, and it's just them in the middle of the street, and she finally walks off, and she does go to a car, and that's a twist for sure, and she entered and then someone hops up behind her and she starts screaming for help, and he keeps saying relaxed as she screams.

And now we have NYPD on the case.

So rollin's increased.

You are there and some unis fill them in.

Jessica Wolcott, she's twenty six and she works at a bar on seventh and Avenue B.

Guess what.

I was at a bar on seventh and Avenue B, like last week I was.

I used to always be at bars.

There no the bar on that corner, Like, what do they think they filmed there?

I don't know.

It was someone's birthday and I walked over and it was rock rocks kind of vibes, and I wonder if it's there, but also, why are you driving to work?

Like it's kind of psycho.

I would never be a victory shoe shaped bar there for a long time that I always went to.

Yeah, Like the bar was horseshoe shaped, yeah, yeah, in the middle and it was like rock and roll.

Yeah, like a fun divy bar.

I used to go there all the time because my friend that you know used to live right down the street.

Okay, okay, good times.

Yeah, so I'll you know, I like that.

So anyways, she so she's on the corner.

So she was raped in the front seat of the car and dark music plays, and that's obviously the closes captioning there's gonna be a lot of music cues in this episode.

Rollin's goes to comfort the blanket covered shivering victim, take her inside.

She's freezing.

I don't understand.

You can't be in an ambulance, Like I know, it's it's for the show.

I get it, but she's just like really shivering and disheveled.

But she didn't see him because it was from behind, and her makeup is smeared, and she did hear his voice.

He talked a lot, and he said he was sorry.

He started to cry and go, it's not my fault.

I was born this way.

Sorry, I just did it like in the Gagaway in my head.

So he basically he's like, I was born to be a rapist, and it's in my jeans credits.

Okay, she's indoors and warm, and she's clean.

I think they let her wash her hair and face.

She seems yeah, she looks showered.

Yeah, yeah, So I wonder if they like did a speedy rape kit or something.

So she's sitting with Benson and telling her what happened.

She's crying.

She says, you know, like he was really strong because she did try to fight him off.

She thinks she does know who it is because Rodney would never leave her alone.

So now solemn music plays.

She said, it was really odd about the genetics, you know, and she asks if it's real, and Benson goes, that's ridiculous, of course it's not.

So we go to the car dealership.

Guess who works there, Rodney.

I mean it's I like that car dealers like it's been a scummy job forever and will never change, Like if you want to create a character that's like untrustworthy or a Slee's ball.

And he sells cars.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He tries not to talk to Rolin's and Creasy because he's in the middle of a deal and it's like, babe, there's two badges.

No one cares about your deal.

He also seems shocked, but he the name Jessica and makes a little joke to the customer who like and it's so cheesy, but the customer kind of giggles and they have this like he implies his prices are so low it's criminal, and he, you know, walks off with the detectives and he goes, I got rejected.

Is that a felony?

And they go no, but rape is He goes, oh, I did not rape.

He swears to God.

He says he would never rape somebody, and he didn't follow her.

He just got blown off, and so like he went to a different bar, and or near the bar, he goes, I would never rape somebody.

And that's actually like a sign of innocence, right because when the people go, I would never do that, Like that makes sense because or they'll be like who said that?

And it's like, so you're not denying it, you know what I mean, Like this is the right answer for someone who doesn't who didn't do it.

But he goes, I just I got blown off and I took a quick car home.

He agrees to a DNA sample and it's kind of hot.

He goes swab away, like he's like down to get swabbed, And so I'm back into this car dealer.

So my sister used to do like reception, like paperwork admin at a car dealership.

And I used to hang out at the office when I was a kid, and it was the thing where you would put documents in a tube and then you can.

Go like, oh, why that is so cool.

My mom's bank used to do that.

I'd be like, let me put it in like to do deposits.

Yeah, oh my god.

I want to a height of technology.

I thought that was like, this is the future.

We're all gonna be sending each other messages through fucking tubes.

I fucking loved it.

I want to shrink down, get in the tube and get shot up, have a fun ass.

I think you kind of do that on like a water slide.

You're right, you're in a tube and you just get shot the fuck out of a cannon.

We're at the precincts and Roland's looking at Bodega camera footage and we see Rodney grabbing her and then her walking away, and he watches her, but he does have the other way.

And Benson comes in with even more evidence to hear him the DNA is not a match.

But good news is we got a familial match with someone named Mark Brown who's arrested in twenty thirteen for rape.

And he's doing seven to ten and sing sing because he raped a math teacher in the Bronx and I like like the detail of the subject that she teaches, So let's talk to him and find his male relatives.

We talked to this guy.

He's kind of funny and he's annoyed.

But from like, from my perspective, when you want to pay a change of pace in jail, someone came to see me, whether I wanted it or not, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'll entertain this.

Yeah, let's see what happens.

Something to do, Yeah, something to do.

I just don't know why.

But he basically he says, so he goes I'm not what are you guys talking about?

You want all my close family members?

What else?

You want me to wash your car?

And they lie to him and they go, well, we just want to make sure everyone's okay because someone in your family has been critically injured.

Which is like sad to lie like that.

I know you've got to get what you gotta get, but like, this guy's in jail now, he's like, he's my They're okay, Like, I think it's so fucked up, and I don't like this little lie that they're doing with the critically insured family member.

Like this man's in jail.

His like, I mean, he's a rapist.

Fuck with him.

Who cares to ride him?

Honestly?

Lie to him, hit him in the face.

I've been worse to less rape.

So whatever.

He's worried.

He's like, oh my god, was it my brother?

Is it Mark Brown?

Oh?

No, he's Mark Brown.

I'm kidding.

It's his brother Nick.

He goes, is it my brother Nick?

They're like, I don't know, someone's you know, fucked up in a car crash, dude.

So he's so worried.

He's like, does my mom know?

And they go, well, let him know.

We'll let him know, And so they get Nick's info.

He's an accountant, and they walk off slimy as fuck, but I guess we've you know, he's a rayping.

So they go to Nick Brown and he's the other man from the bar earlier, obviously, and he's a little He's in a little desk in the corner of a row of desks, no tie, button down, checkered shirt.

So they approach him and he goes, is this about the bartender?

And they're like, how do you know about that?

And he's like, oh, I heard from a guy that he like, I know from the bar, and he goes, listen, I did it.

I raped her.

I couldn't help it.

I was born this way.

I was born to be a rapist.

And they obviously have to handcuff him, and Rollin's mouth is a gape.

She cannot believe it, and she does read him as rights.

All his coworkers watch him as he's taken away, thurnsmet roombars he did confess to rape, and he does have an attorney.

He goes, listen, my father was a mouse.

My father was a mouse.

His name was Stuart Little.

And now we're family of rapists.

Okay, all right, he serves seven years for rape with three counts of rape.

Seven years.

I think that's not enough, but yeah, the dad also said he couldn't help himself.

And Benson's watching obviously She's like, my father's a rapist?

Is it in me?

Am I a deep yeah?

Yeah, And the dude's like, it's in me, it's DNA.

And also her brother ended up, you know, having a squirrely life.

And then the lawyer stops him from talking anymore and goes, Nick has information to help solve an outstanding case involving a serial rapist, but they want a deal, and Rollins goes, ye, yeah, but we need a taste, and Chrasey goes and how do we know you're legit?

And he looks up and goes, I know who the River rapist is.

They're like, you know him?

Oh my god.

But the lawyer stops him from revealing anything and goes, but he goes he gags his victims with socks, and Crasy goes, congrats, you read the paper, and he goes, wool socks because they're thick in course, and make them gag, and it's like, okay, that's so fucked up.

He says it's not a knife.

It's in the ice pick as well, and he smells like cigars.

And all the victims did mention that someone was always smoking, and he goes, yeah, he was always smoking these little ones with the plastic tip thing.

They're like, okay, we're gonna talk to the detectives investigating the case figure it out.

And he's like, please tell the bartender.

I'm really sorry, and Rollins goes yeah, and we'll send her flowers too.

Are you fucking stupid?

And he looks sad, but okay, time has passed.

We're in Benson's office.

Rollin's Criasy got the info confirmed with the lead people on the River rapist crime.

Benson's gonna call the DA for a deal, and Chraasey goes, yeah, and make sure you tell him about the dumg thing he's going to bring up.

So they're prepared.

And so we got to call Jessica and tell her about the deal, and we also and that we got him and sends Creesy out.

So now Rollin's goes, well, you haven't told him about your rapist dad yet, and she goes, well, neither did you, And she goes that's not my place.

So they're sweet, they're friends.

Rollins chucks in.

Benson pretends she's okay, clearly she's not.

She's straight at her therapist's office.

Peter Lindstrom.

Benson's in therapy, And I forgot it's this is also about Noah, So it's not even about just racist rapist dad Noah's dad, is it?

Nikki d.

D Johnny D Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean Johnny one of the worst, burned a woman, full trafficker, rapist, murderer, like monster.

I mean, this show has so many layers.

But so now she's worried Noah will be a rapist as well, and she goes, what if his darkness will overpower everything?

He says, your belief systems, moral compass, and strength are stronger than your fond there's DNA, and he reminds her there's no such thing as the rape gene.

And it's not it's like you had an abusive person in your life, like that's what it is.

It's not a gene, you know.

Yeah, And also I'm not saying that's an excuse, but it's like if you're abused, you're more likely to abuse.

It has nothing to do with genetics.

Well, what's interesting is like this episode is listed as being based also.

On like the warrior gene, which is like this thing that is it is a thing.

It's like a it's like a misleading term.

It says on the internet of like some kind of gene that they found in a bunch of people in this one Dutch family, and they were all very they said it was like it influences behavior, but it's not an actual direct predictor of violence.

But this episode never even like gets into that.

So I didn't even really like research it for the second half of the episode because I was like, this just feels like a bullshit excuse to be like.

Well, sorry, I have this warrior gene that just makes me a fucking rapist, Like yes, that's not.

Yeah, no, no no.

So we're at Rikers and Barba's here, and I just had been mentioning, like a few episodes ago, how I needed more Barbara.

We miss Barbara, and we got him, and he's with Benson and he's willing to make a deal.

Okay, so rape two and only if the information is credible.

The lawyer tries to get a better deal and but Barbara shuts him down before it starts like we're not doing this, and Nick's like, okay, okay, I'll take it.

It sounds fair to me.

And he says that the River rapist name is Sam.

He doesn't know the last name or where he lives or works, and it's like what the fuck, Like what do you even have?

Like you're so annoying, and Nick says, I'll know where he'll be tonight at ten dark music again.

So we're on twelfth Avenue.

We're in a warehouse, kitchen, garage, morgue.

I don't know, white painted bricks, metal doors that open in the middle, you know, like back, like for trucks or something to go.

Yeah, there's like where how Yeah, fluorescent lights, loose chairs.

This is obviously a meeting addict kind of vibes.

And there's God talk and we and Nixon there he's undercover.

We have a steak out Rollin's and crease You're working closely together and they're like, fuck these sexual predators, and Creasey calls it a Saturday night live skit.

Nick starts and he says he was drinking a beer and talking to a pretty bartender, and he says he began to spin out and had feelings that he couldn't control himself, and he did the thing he vowed he'd never do, and he admits to raping her and a young man and a beanie goes, how could you do that?

And he says we had a deal.

We were going to fight this thing together.

And he says I made a mistake.

I'm sorry, and the beanie goes, I'm not buying it now.

Old man confronts beanie and would you blame an alcoholic for sipping a drink?

He's not responsible for his genetics, and neither are you.

There's also a curly haired guy and yeah, so there's like old guy, two young guys, two nameless guys, and there's a lot of empty chairs, is my point?

Okay, it's a small club.

And I also want to know is this on craigslist?

Like how are they finding each other?

Like how do the how do the way?

How are they finding each other?

Like sketchy, sketchy.

So this old dude talks in a lot of platitudes and finally is like, don't hate yourself, and the beanie goes, are you fucking kidding?

I despise myself every day?

Wake up and go, is this the day I finally ruined my life in the life of an innocent woman?

Someone walks in late, someone says, hi, Sam, we have Sam.

Old man fills him in that Nick shared and that Will is disappointed in him, and Sam says, sorry to hear about that, but you know, it happens, and he's quickly like doesn't give a fuck, like how are things?

Like what's going on?

He says he's good.

He's kind of like a handsome guy, I would say, And he says he feels like he turned a page in his life.

He went on a real, proper date with a great woman.

And the old guy says, like, oh my god, that's terrific.

So then Nick asked the old man like, do you think me or Sam or any of us kind of a normal relationship And the old man says yes, it's a process.

And Nick says even though he's assaulted three women, And Sam goes, whoa why are you being so negative?

And so then.

Well we don't talk stats in here, bro, like it's so But also like Nick, can you be a little patient, like why or why didn't anyone train him to be undercover?

More like you're changing the way you behave so drastically, like you're being crazy, You're literally it's giving.

The fucking guy at the ticket booth in the lou Diamond Phillips episode like relax, like just calm down.

Yeah, So he goes, whatever, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to make sense of this for myself, and they go, yeah, well you talk about your own crap, okay, And Nick keeps trying, and everyone's just suspicious and curly guys like why do you even use the R word?

You know, like we don't do that here.

And Nick's like, well, what are the options for those of us who have raped?

What do we do now?

And he's flailing, and then Curls goes, we're trying the best we can.

And they all start fighting and the old man screams for them to calm down.

They're in full like outerwear.

This meat plant must be freezing.

And then the old man reminds everyone that they're there to support each other, and Curls goes, Nick is asking too many questions, he's accusing people.

He's He's like, I've been here ten times, I've never heard him talk about rape.

This guy's pissed, and he goes and the Sam's specific you're a snitch.

He goes, no, I'm not tense music.

So now Curls takes out a knife and all units have to move in.

Obviously there's a knife, and so the group kind of like it's a musical.

It's like truly West Side story.

They're all kind of like, you know, getting him against so well and knife on him.

They push him against the wall.

He goes, I'm gonna count and I'm gonna count in.

But it's like, obviously he finds his wire and rape.

It's not as good of actors as killers.

I guess I'm not not good at getting away with steps.

So so they go, you lying son of a bitch and Nick goes kill me.

I deserve it.

I deserve it.

The cops run in.

Everyone tries to run but get we're bringing in, so the Beanie guy's crying.

They arrest Sam and they're all going to the precinct for a chat.

So it's a big parade of perverts through the precinct and Barbara.

Perverts on parade.

Barbara and Benson are watching the clowns come in and maybe the Beanie guy had a chance, I don't know.

So they have nothing to really hold anybody, so they really have to work as a team.

The old man goes, yeah, they're flawed, but they're trying and they're decent, and Rollins only wants to talk about Sam.

She does not give a fuck, and he's not going to spill easy.

He goes, this is a place to support men with nowhere to turn and no one to talk, and we listen and courage and we don't judge.

And Benson through the spy windows scoffs to Barba.

And most of the members have never done anything wrong, he says, and Rollins is like, okay, but I only care about Sam Dalton, so stop it.

But he refuses to betray the group.

She gets loud and aggressive and goes, what about the betrayal of three women?

Three innocent women who are wondering if the cops are ever going to catch their rapists?

Are you okay betraying them?

He says, If I betray one of them, I lose all credibility.

The group vanishes and lots of decent men are fighting to do the right thing, to go against their genetics, and he's like, you know, I'm helping these guys.

It could help stop hundreds of rapes.

So Barbara's like, okay, I get it, I get it relaxed.

Benson goes, Shirt in theory, but in reality it could make things much worse.

It gives them a forum to rationalize and legitimize their crimes.

And Barbara goes, well, who's this other kid?

And we go to the other spy window.

It's woodroom blinds and his name is will Stein, not Curls or hat.

Another one, Cariese, is in with that young man.

He has feathered Kennedy's style hair, I would say, and he goes, we're in there.

We're trying to become better.

All we want to be is better, and Creasy goes, well, Sam rape three women and the guy gets shaky and goes, I know nothing about that.

Creasy says it's illegal to lie to a cop.

And the guy says, I didn't ask to be a part of this, and he goes, it's not my fault.

My father rapes somebody, and now I inherited his genes.

He just wants to do the right thing and make sure the evil never manifests, and that's why he goes to these meetings.

He wants to control his urges increase.

He goes, I feel for you, but I'm not a priest and I'm not a therapist.

I'm a cop, okay, and I'm here to talk about crimes, actual crimes.

So one more time, are you going to tell me anything about Sam Dalton or no?

And he says no.

Solemn music plays Barba Leaves and Benson is low at her desk looking at baby Noah in a frame.

So now Benson and Rollins are with Dalton and they're like, we have evidence you rape three women, and they take photos of the victims out and display them on the table and he's smart though.

He's like, well, if you do, then why aren't you arrested me?

And Benson goes, well, we want to hear your side of the story.

She's like, you're in this group, you're obviously remorseful, you know, maybe you want to come clean, get the guilt and shame off your chest.

And he's like, oh, confess you say okay, and Rollins is like got you, and you're going away and if you want a deal, you better say something to us.

And they're trying their tag teaming.

They're like trying everything, like maybe it'll make you feel good and he says, you know what would make me feel good, A thick steak, and Benson goes, yeah, you're not alone in that, but I don't think that's gonna happen for you right now, And he gets up tense music, grabs his jacket from the back of the chair.

He's really super casual and confident, and they ask where he's going.

He says home.

They stand up and say, no, that ship has sailed.

You're under arrest for trespassing.

You weren't allowed to be in that warehouse, private property, and you had weed in your pocket and it's twenty seventeen.

I think it was like decriminalized.

But like whatever, they're playing dirty whatever.

I like what's happening.

I'm turned on.

I like them working together.

But he says lawyer right away.

But then once they handcuff him, like they look at each other like, oh my god, I can't believe we got away with that.

Like they it seemed like this was not a plan and they were flying by the seat of their pants.

Like Benson kind of breathes a sigh of relief and makes eyes of like, Okay, I guess I'm now yeah, but I think this is one of my favorite scenes of all time, and I don't know why we don't talk about it more So, Benson has some good news for suspenders.

Barbara, okay, like we have all the victims remember his face and have I d'd him, and his voice and the stench of cheap cigars, and they're excited to testify and put him away.

They cannot wait to get his ass The crime lab confirmed the DNA as a match to all three vics, and Barbara goes, ah, you're too kind, and we know it's too good to be true.

And I assume it's going to be a poisonous fruit tree situation.

And a woman walks in.

It's a court processor and it's a blue folded paper and Barbera's opening and you know it's emotion to suppress.

The confession to the therapy group is inadmissible.

But in my head, I go, who gives a shit.

We don't need the confession.

We have all these other things.

And they brought everyone from the group in.

They brought everyone in, so they questioned everyone in the group.

Basically they're saying this like old man is a clergyman, congregant privilege, and Benson goes, that's a stretch.

So now what he says, We're screwed, And I was right.

It's the poisonous tree situation.

And so I don't and yeah, whatever, the fruit of the poisonous tree, and I don't.

I really like that.

It's like such a fun one, but I just feel like they brought everyone in and they have a lot without the confession.

So I kind of hate this little thing.

But we have a sad little rapist boy and he's sitting like a baby, and we hear a lawyer say he grew up an abusive household, violent dad, YadA YadA, drug addictions, sexual assault, His dad's in jail.

He doesn't have impulse control, but he's determined to do something about it.

The lawyer Greg jermyn German whatever, he's from, Ally McBeal, we should get him.

He's also in sixty five episodes of Grays, and he's in four episodes as SVW defense attorney Derek Strauss and he's been working since nineteen eighty five.

I'm obsessed.

And then Barba's like, I'm sorry, why is this relevant?

Judge agrees, but he just wants to show context for the therapy group, and he's like the sting happened.

It's fucked up, and the music is getting dramatic.

We know what's gonna happen.

Barbara gets up.

He's disgusted.

He says, the men talking about who they want to rape and who they've raped is barely a religious therapy thing.

Okay, fuck you in a warehouse and they yell at each other.

It gets wild.

The defense keeps going on about the First Amendment.

Barbara screams, a carpet cleaning a warehouse.

Thank god, we know what it is.

I mean, it was killing me, it was killing me.

So it's a carpet cleaning place.

Oh my god.

So I walk home with a different comic.

She lives on the Lower East Side, Like I walk home with her late at night from the cellar often and the same street, and for some reason, all the business's lights were on that are usually off.

So we got to kind of like look into businesses and we saw a newspaper delivery like window front so vintage.

I looked them up.

I looked at all the newspapers they have what delivery?

And we looked in and there was like hip looking dudes work in organizing the things.

It's like what paper.

All of them.

It's like all of them from across the of the world.

Like it's newspaper.

It's like general newspaper delivery, so retro.

But it really kind of peaked my interest because we usually don't see it Outberts Newspaper Delivery.

Newspaper distribution center opens at two am.

Yeah, it's two am to noon.

Yeah, and the guys I was scared because my brain is broken, but we waved at them through the window.

Yeah, it's like t T twenty five different papers.

Wow.

Crazy.

Yeah, I wonder who like the clients are.

But there's order forms, student order forms.

Yeah, they bundle it, no extra charge.

I just hadn't seen it.

It's just like wild when you do the same walk over and over and you still get to find something new.

And then obviously I stood with my friend on the street corner and then as I'm walking more home, I run into multiple people I know, we know WHOA.

I also sat in the park with a different friend and I ran into two other people.

I just like love the city.

Yeah, and finding a vintagital newspaper place.

I'm going to try to look in there all the time.

Now, I'm like, I love it, Okay, whatever, it's a carpet cleaning where else.

Thank you to the writer who added this, I really appreciate it.

So now, okay, we know it's gonna be a nightmare.

The judge's questioning him, but he's prepped and ready, and they put the old man on the stand and he goes, we do the Lord's prayer, and you know, we help those that are prone to violence, and we help them with shame and complex issues.

I'm a founder, I'm a minister, but motherfucker, you don't have degrees or training.

Like the tone might feel spiritual, but it doesn't fucking matter.

And to me, I'm like, this guy's raped too, Like why are we not investigating this old man?

And Barba is sitting and he's so rude.

He goes, what's your occupation and he goes, I think of myself is a man of God.

And he goes, well, I see you as a private security guard who works at a topless to night club called Bunnies.

And he goes, well, no, I work for a security company.

And they tell him where to report and he goes, well, you've reported to the same place and one hundred percent of your income is from Bunnies.

Is that not true?

And he goes, you preach for free, right, it's a hobby.

And Barbara stands up, leans both hands on the table and like the old guy, IY is stunned and humiliated, and his hairdoo is also very Roger Rabbit, bad guy like split up top situation, and Barbara goes some men golf, some men collect wine, and you preach and he goes, I preach because I have a desire to help others and I'm good at it and whatever.

Barbara is like, you have a dot com certificate.

No one gives a shit.

So now it's a Benson Barbara walk and talk and they're losing and Benson's fuming.

The judge went with it, case law case law, YadA YadA.

The DNA is out, the victims, everything's out, and I'm like, but I disagree with this, like what is actually going wrong?

And then Barbara does prove.

Me wrong and he's right, and I get it now because if it wasn't for Nick's improper disclosure, we wouldn't have even known who he was or what he looked like.

So that's why the photo and the IDs are no good.

So they have nothing.

So now I kind of get it.

So now it's like, can we use anyone else in the therapy group, you know?

But Barbara goes, well, they're all tainted, and Benson goes except for one will.

He has no priors, his DNA match, no outstanding rape kits.

He has a great job, and he looks like an eagle scout, you know.

So we go to Grand Media Consulting.

We go to talk to him.

He's shocked to see them.

He's obviously stressed.

There's a young woman named Alison with him.

She's wearing a flowy dress and a big chunky necklace, and he's like, oh, we work together.

And he's in a short sleeve flannel with a vest on top, and he's startled.

They do a classic like, oh, he's just a good Samaritan and we need his help.

He's not happy.

I keep saying the same thing.

He's startled.

He's not happy.

Obviously, he's at work and he wants to rape.

And the cops are here, and so they assure him.

They're like, you're not a rapist, bro, And they're like, have you talked to adults and outside the meetings?

And Chreasey goes, you don't owe him anything.

He is a predator, he's everything that you're working so hard not to become.

That's good crazy, and he goes, but if you protect him, he will do it again and that rape will be on you, okay, and he goes, fine, fine.

We have coffee once at a diner and he said that the victims enjoy it.

And then now we're directly in Barba's fancy pants office and he discloses to like everybody, that he wanted to punch you know, Sam in the face, but he didn't.

He's really scary and he goes, you know, and I'm not that tough.

Barba asks if he told him that he raped three women, and he goes, correct, and nobody was around.

It was just the two of us.

So they call the three victims back.

The case is back on, let's testify, let's go to court.

Think you will, you're saving the case, and Benson nods at him in approval.

Barba is presenting to the jury and has the three victims photo on the screen and says the evidence is overwhelming, and so you know, he's sitting at the table squirming, and Barbara goes, that's a violent and impulsive man.

Fuck him.

Heizzed everywhere.

They're like, we found the ji's on the victim, in the victim everywhere, and Barbara is a very night stalker.

And Barbara, I did it.

Barbara is crushing his opening statement.

He's going for full extent of the law tense music.

The women testify, they give the details of the attacks, they point his ass out, and the defense, of course, is being like the worst, you know, like discrediting all the women, nitpicking little pieces.

Barbara is getting frustrated and in a rage listening.

I'm in a rage too.

One was drunk and she's like, I had four glasses of wine, Like shut the fuck up.

So now we call Will onto the stand.

Rollins opens the door though and shakes her head.

Will is nowhere to be found, so we need a break.

The judge gives it to him.

So they're calling him.

He's not picking up, he's not at work, he's not at his apartment.

Where is he?

We have no case without him.

So Cariese and Barbara I have a fight in the courthouse halls and it's like a big dick situation.

I think Careese's in law school at this point.

So then Careese says something of like oh, I understand, and Barbara goes, I don't care if you understand, and they get like, I don't know where you're not kind of attracted to Careese and his aggressiveness in the halls, or like I feel like you think he's a dope and a loser.

But he kind of got like it kind of got heated and hot.

Well, I just felt like he was like I handed you a perfect case.

And it's like Barbara didn't really do anything wrong.

So I don't know why you're getting so mad at him.

Well, because he goes, I don't care what you understand.

Yeah, because Caresee is just like a dork, right, Like that's what you know.

Crisey's like, oh I get it, Okay, I.

Get the law, and then and then him being like I don't care if you get it or not, like no one cares about your little law prowess and that you're at fordom I went to Harvard, you know, like, oh, he's big timing.

I think Barbara's big timing him and condescending him, and Carisy goes, you know what, motherfucker, Like we're the ones that are out there trying to get stuff.

You fucked this up, like go fuck yourself, you know, like you lost it in court, you threw you got this throw out, and now you're giving it to us.

So I kind of like it.

You know what else is hot?

And this is crazy?

You know, I've been in my like Tricksy and caughtya a moment.

There was an episode where Trixie's wearing a Bucky's sweatsuit.

Oh, I see, I only listen.

I never watch it, but go on nothing.

I wanted to fuck him, like, I was like, Trixy is the hottest guy I've ever seen, and he had like a Bucky's beanie on, and.

I was like, damn whatever.

Barbara is condescending and Carasey's in a rage and I don't care.

And so then now Rollins is chasing after Carisy on the courtroom steps and Crasy's like, I don't care about Barbara, but I gave him a good fucking case and he fucked it up, so like, shut the fuck up.

So now we go to Will's friend Alice and she's like, I don't know where he is, maybe with the preacher, like they're clothes.

So we got to go find the old man.

And the old man is a motherfucker and He goes, yeah, I told him not to testify, and Rollins goes, are you out of your fucking mind?

That's witness tampering.

He goes, I'm trying to help him.

So the old guy goes, yeah, but Will needs the group so he can't betray us or he'll have a fall out with us and chrease.

He goes, well he can find an actual professional, how about that, and then Rollins pops off, fuck you, three women were rape genetics or not.

This guy needs to be punished and we need Will for that, so fuck you and you better help us, and the old man obviously does, and we find Will on a roof he wants to jump.

He goes, if I'm a good person, I'll just kill myself so I don't hurt an innocent woman.

I'm twenty five and I never kissed a girl because I'm afraid of what I might do to her.

And he can't suppress it anymore, and Rollin's goes, fuck mister Witt, And that's the first time I didn't call him old man.

And I hope no one in his life is listening to this episode, and I hope he definitely does not hear a snippet.

So mister Witt is not an actual prof.

And yeah, that's that's what everyone needs to Everyone needs to get a real clinical sex therapist in that group.

They cannot be meeting in carpets.

This guy, though, has not.

He says he's never even kissed a girl, so it's like he just has maybe thoughts that have been put in his head by these guys.

Yeah that it's like, then everybody that's related to a rapist, this is gonna this is just gonna happen, so you might as well try to like head it off at the past when it's like it also cannot happen, you know, like, yeah, he's.

Like I have the gene.

You can't do the g and the gene increase.

Yahs are like trying to help him, but you know what they need, you know what they need.

Benson comes walking in.

Her dad's a rapist and she's about to connect.

So she tells him my father was a rapist.

I've been dealing with it my whole life, but that doesn't make me bad or evil?

How do the stories and group make you feel?

Rollin's ads and he says, absolutely disgusted, And they're like that's good.

Your repulse by it.

That's good because you're not a rapist.

Okay, will you're good?

And he's thinking about it and he has fur on the hood.

I'm like, did they run out of jackets?

Like?

Why are they giving him a fur lined hood?

Do men wear them?

Maybe I'm being rude, Like I'm being rude.

Okay, so creasey to me.

Cursey pulls him down and tells him he's okay and hugs him.

Now they're in court.

He testifies Sam told him it's okay to assault and rape women as long as you ask for forgiveness.

After he told him he was wrong, that raping someone is horrible, and Sam smiled and goes, well, you just don't get it, and that the women enjoy it.

And he said that he did rape three women.

And it cuts to everyone's faces.

Everyone has an emotion.

And now Benson and Barbara they're outside.

They're having thoughts about the urges and warnings omens.

Something's bads to come.

Whatever.

We get a phone call and we know what it is.

No NOFL no FL.

He cut his knee.

Okay, well cut his knee, so he must be a rapist.

So now Noah's in bed, and he says, hi, mommy, and she gives him a cute good night and says, I love you no matter what, No matter what, Noah, even if you rape JK.

Good night, sweet boy.

She closes the door and we cut to Noah's sleeping and Benson looks worried.

She looks worried, and it's dick Wolf baby and it's Toddler Noah, the only Noah that we like that.

I like, he's our favorite, but I Baby Noah's fine too.

I like baby Noah's fine, but I like Toddler Noah.

Yeah.

It's like, I don't really understand why this man Sam would be in this group.

He doesn't seem very remorseful.

He doesn't seem well because it exonerates him.

So in his head he just asks for forgiveness.

So if he goes and talks to these random man and a warehouse, that's the forgiveness.

Yeah.

Like to him, it's like, oh, well, I'm trying to get better, so that's all that matters is I'm trying.

These people enjoy it, so it does.

I don't know, You're right, why would he be in the group?

Yeah, I don't know.

He doesn't seem like he's trying very hard to stop, and he's like really cocky and shitty with the cops.

Like a thick steak, you know, like I don't.

I don't like him.

I also don't like a thick steak.

I don't like a finlay.

I like a prime rib.

Okay, I don't know the difference.

I'm so BHere.

Oh my god.

Last night before bed, I was zooming in and reading the menu.

I don't know why I was zooming in though, whatever.

I read the full menu of Travis Kelsey's steakhouse.

He has a steakhouse.

Him and Patrick Mahomes just opened a steakhouse in the Lowe's Hotel in Kansas City.

I'm gonna make a reservation for February.

You know it.

I'm already picking out what I'm saying.

Okay, there's a dress code.

WHOA, that's cool.

I love a good steakhouse as a as a vegetarian, love the sides as a pescatarian.

They usually have a great piece of fish.

I like steakhouses.

I do too.

Okay, let's get into the true crime now, I know.

I'm curious.

Is a carpet cleaning manufacturing business involved in No.

Unfortunately, not a carpet warehouse to be seen.

But like I said, I mentioned on this podcast a long time ago that I did have sex at a perfume factory once in New York.

I wonder if that's what started all of this allergy stuff with the fragrances.

Kicked it off.

That's kind of fun, and I guess there's I guess there's like a trend where someone sent me, like, uh, to have a party and the theme is you dress like your type.

I like, that's pretty fun, and I'm like, I guess that would be comfortable.

And then I'm like, would I just be wearing a UPS outfit and that was probably USPS.

I think I'd show up as a mailman.

Love it?

Love it?

Okay, So this episode True Crime, like I said, I mean, the episode's called Genes.

They talk a lot about the genetics, but really there is no proof that there is any kind of gene like this, and they don't mention it in the show.

And then there's it basically just turns into a nature versus nurture debate, which you could debate all day.

Long and I'm not going to do that.

The case that this is based on the specific case they actually reference.

In the episode, Barbara brings up Paul Cox.

He says that name, and this is the story of that case.

That's so interesting.

I heard him say it and I went, I'm going to pretend it didn't I didn't hear it.

Yeah, that's for me.

I can't believe that's the crime.

I was like, oh, I should look this up, but just yeah, no, I ignore it from my notes.

And it's like, no, this is like, this is good.

I mean, this is I had not heard of this case.

And this is also called the Blackout murders.

I do know Karen and Georgia covered this A lot of you like to tell me and when Karen or Georgia covers the case, And yes, they have done this one as well.

But on December thirtieth of nineteen eighty eight, Paul Cox was twenty one years old.

He went out drinking with friends in Westchester County, New York.

This is all taking place pretty close to where I grew up, like just you know, right outside the city, like not that far from the Connecticut border.

After a lot of drinks, they had a lot of drinks.

They were drinking pictures, mixed drinks, He and his friends got in Paul's car and then he like drove into a fucking tree or he drove into like an embankment or something like that.

He crashed his mom's car, and then his friends were like, we're going back to the bar, and he's like, I'm going to keep walking and I'm going to walk home at two am.

So now it's December thirty.

First it's New Year's Eve of nineteen eighty eight, but it's the morning of it.

He passes his old childhood home in Larchmont, New York, which his parents had sold over a decade earlier.

He had not lived in that house since he was like seven years old or something like that.

Yeah, And in the midst of an alcoholic blackout, he breaks into the home.

He takes a knife from the home and he stabbed the new occupants to death.

Oh my god, yes, and then he slits their throats.

And the victims are doctor lakshman Rau Chervu and doctor Shanta Chervu, a married couple Indian immigrants, super hard working, had like come to America and just like made the American dream come true and had these kids that were really success and end up being really successful and doctors and stuff, and he's and they're just killed.

Some articles I read said that he killed them in their sleep, but others said that she woke up saw him, he killed her, and then the husband woke up and he killed him.

So I think they were awake, But it depends on what articles read.

But the fucked up thing is he apparently none of that's fucked up.

What's doubly fucked up, I guess I mean, is he thought he was killing his own parents.

He was like he thought he was rage killing his own parents, Like I think he was back in his old childhood home.

And apparently he's he grew up very privileged.

This kid.

I think he's from a family of I think five kids or something.

He's dyslexic, so he's he's having a harder time in school, and apparently his parents are extremely critical over him about it, like they are harping on him all the time, and it made him develop like a hatred for.

Them, and so he wasted.

At twenty one, wanders in and says, these are my parents in their bedroom because that was their bedroom when he was really small.

I don't know, And he left his fingerprints everywhere.

He tried to clean up a bit, but he did leave his fingerprints places, but he had no record, and so the crime went unsolved for four years.

No, yeah, no one could figure out who did this crime for four years.

I mean again, this is late eighties.

I don't know how much DNA being used yet, but blood at least like they're they're not nothing to compare it to.

So he tried to clean up a little bit.

He threw the knife into the Long Island Sound.

He incinerated the clothes he was wearing the next morning.

Okay, so two years go by, in nineteen ninety, he joined probably.

Face Seattle like he got away with it, Yes.

But he claims he has no memory of it, that it's a full blackout.

Yeah, but why did he get rid of evidence then and clean stuff up?

I think it's like he says, he woke up and he's covered in blood and he's like fuck, and he got like and he got rid of everything, but he doesn't remember doing it, allegedly fierating, incinerating.

I know, I know exactly, I hear you.

In nineteen ninety, he joins, aa.

I mean I also think he had like a period of very heavy drinking for like at least five years.

In A in nineteen ninety he starts, he joins AA, he starts sobering up, and it's at that point that he starts suffering from these very vivid, anxiety ridden dreams where he's having flashbacks that lead him to believe that he may have been the one that killed the chair of the family.

Because in the morning there's even an article that said that in the morning he woke up when it was on the news, not the morning, but maybe the next day or whatever, and he was like, oh my god, mom and dad, look what happened at our old house.

Like he called his family over, like he did not remember that he did it.

And so as he's sobering up, all the shit starts coming back to him in flashbacks, and he starts he tells his girlfriend, he tells his sponsor, and at AA meetings he reveals it to as many as seven people that he thinks he might have committed these murders.

Even though anonymity and confidentiality are core tenets of AA in nineteen ninety three, I can't find out whether it was one member or a couple of members of that AA group.

Contact authorities and they tell them what Cox has said in these meetings about how he killed this couple, and he is eventually indicted for second degree murder.

In nineteen ninety four, he stands trial for the murders, and the attorneys tried to argue that he was temporarily insane at the time of the crime, and they also try to get the testimony of his fellow AA members thrown out, arguing that the privilege is akin to that between a therapist or a clergyman.

Almost wish that there was no privilege at all, Like I feel like, yes, you should be able to tell your therapist, but I think if you've committed a heinous crime, you have to live with it.

You have to live with the secret inside of yourself.

And you can tell anybody that you feel like you can trust, but that's you have to live with the fact that they could tell someone.

I don't know.

I just think I think it's so crazy you could just go to a priest and tell them that you did something and that they can't say anything like what.

And I do think that there is a thing with a therapist where if you've harmed someone, I do think that they can tell But I don't know.

Maybe not like if you're going to be a danger to yourself or others.

Yourself for others, Yeah, yeah, But the judge denies the motion to exclude the AA member's testimony, and seven members of his AA group testified.

But in the first trial, the jury is deadlocked eleven to one for murder conviction and.

The eleven I bet it's another AA person or something.

Well, the eleven jurors went to the judge and said, there's one person on the jury who is using emotion and not facts, and they won't change their mind.

But they's the don't motion that this kid was drunk, and that he was temporarily insane, and that he had a tough childhood where his parents were mean to him for being dyslexic or whatever, and that he didn't.

Knowingly know what he was doing when he did it.

I don't know.

I'm just I'm spitballing what this guy was thinking or girl.

I don't know who this person was, this other juror, But it did end up in a mistrial because of a hung jury.

Then he's a retried.

They wasted no time.

He's retried.

Second trial takes place that same year and the motion to consider AA like a therapist and squash all that testimony is once again denied.

And then in that.

Second trial he's convicted of manslaughter.

I don't know why the change in the charge, but he is sentenced to sixteen to fifty years in prison.

So then that's ninety four.

I think he goes into jail starting or he's already been in prison, but ninety five is his sentence or whatever.

In two thousand and one, he's been in there six or seven years.

A new judge, Judge Charles Bryant of the US District Court in White Plains, New York, overturns the manslaughter conviction, and the judge thought that Cox should not have been arrested based on the statements made in a religious context, with the understanding they would remain confidential.

He also cited cases in which the courts have found that authorities cannot force prisoners or people on probation to attend AAMI meet because they are religious.

So basically his logic is, if we consider this such a religious organization that we cannot mandate people to take to go to their meetings, then it is such a religious organization that their communication is privileged.

That was this judge's feeling.

Basically said, since the courts have found that AA is a religion for the purposes of church state separation.

At the end of the day, if AA is seen as like a religious thing, it's like, yeah, all religions are bad and protect predators and protect criminals.

So I'm not saying that's what I mean.

I don't think there should almost be any protection to these people.

But this guy says, yeah, since the courts have found AA is a religion for the purposes of church and state separation, they must also hold that quote disclosures of wrongs to fellow members as ordained by the twelve steps end quote of the AA program qualify as a privilege granted to other religions similarly situated.

So AA is again though this guy in the episode, it's not AA.

There's not God.

This guy's a minister from some online chirt, like you know.

I guess they do say a serenity prayer at the beginning, so maybe it is vaguely religious.

But so apparently, Cox had to stay in jail until an appeal by Westchester eighty A Janine Piro was filed and in two thousand and two, a federal appeals court reinstated the conviction.

They found that quote, Cox failed to establish that his communications to members of AA were made in confidence for the purpose of obtaining spiritual guidance end quote, Therefore they were not considered privilege under New York law.

So the petition was dismissed and Cox had to serve a minimum of sixteen years, which from nineteen that would have been around twenty ten twenty eleven.

When I looked him up in the inmate look up, it looked like he was eligible in twenty eleven, but that he did not get parole until March of twenty fifteen, which means he would have served about twenty years for these murders.

Ay, and he think he's out, but then there's also a condition release date that was June of twenty twenty one, so I wasn't sure whether he got out then in twenty fifteen or twenty twenty one.

Either way, he's out, And yeah, he's like fifty seven now or something like.

I mean, I'm glad I served a lot of time.

I am.

I wish she didn't waste the court's time.

But I just think it's like crazy that it's like you would say, oh, I told this group of people and I have an expectation of privacy as a murderer, Like I don't know you you did.

Commit a murder.

You murder in their sweep.

Yeah, very cults because to me, it's like, yeah, if your organization tells you to ditch your kids or you're in a cult, or give all your money or whatever, and then this seems like it too.

I can murder and you have to keep my secret.

Like you're in a weird place.

You're in a weird place.

That's what.

Yeah, that's what's so weird about the guy in the episode, the fucking Sam character.

But you know, I think that guy Will got dragged in the wrong fucking cult.

Like I don't necessarily think he says my urges, but it's like, you've never even kissed a girl?

How many?

Like what?

Like I don't know.

Maybe he's like I have vivid dreams about raping every night.

That's different, you know, but he doesn't say that.

Yeah, but he's gonna get actual help now, I hope.

Yeah, I'd be good.

But if it disgusts you, then you're not a like those guys get off on it right.

What we see a lot with the creepy creeps is like they have their trophe fees and they like to revisit it.

And it's a powerfect and they like it all right.

But we have a great guest, so do not go anywhere.

Our guest today is an actor who you may know from shows like Orange is the New Black, Inside, Amy Schumer, Weep, and The Marvelous Missus Masel just a few, like you know, barely watched shows.

You may know him for his frequent appearances also on the Tonight Show, but you know him today as the genetically first rapist Nick Brown.

Please enjoy our chat with the very funny Michael Torpie.

Wait, Michael, I feel like we have met each other only because I was a page at NBC with Nelson Castro and then when he started Black twenty and you were in.

The Black twenty stuff.

Yeah, I was like, and I know, oh Gorman two, So I was like, I feel like amazing I met you.

I went to high school with Jesse Cantrell.

Actually yeah, so like, how are you woven in at like so much else?

I can't tell whether I know you just from like UCB, like New York comedy stuff or like we've actually met before, but I.

Mean we were over at NBC so much in those early days when when those guys are transitioning from pages to like actually having jobs, yeah, dot comedy, when NBC was like, we want to make a website.

Oh my gosh, web series.

I mean like when everybody was like, this is the pipeline to TV is to get a hit web series, and then like broad City did it, and then no one.

Else correct, yes, correct, work did worked a one time.

Yeah, but I'm sure I'm sure that because we were there all the time, and so many NBC page people were like helping us out, like starting that.

Companion, like or at SNL after after parties or something, we probably saw each other or something.

Absolutely, Oh that's funny.

Yeah, it's so great.

And then it's been fun to watch you do all these fun shows but also be terrifying in Oranges the New Black.

Yeah, yeah, it's like people look at me and they either go, I think that guy's funny or I think he's terrifying in a creep and we should lean into that part of him.

Yeah, you're the the gun that was like the cliffhanger.

It was like the gun to your Yeah.

Yeah, and we're going into the whole takeover of the prison, I mean, and it was wild.

I mean the mouse is obviously the more haunting of it all, but correct.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, worse yelling at you in the subway during that time.

You know, they were not being the more disturbing stuff with the people that were like, hey, what's up.

And I'm like, I'm like, you should not be into my character at all at all.

He's horrible.

But more people would be like why why do I know you?

And I'd be like, you're making a weird face.

I think you think you should hate me.

Yeah, here's why, and it's an appropriate feeling.

Yeah.

So a lot of people that we talked to are like I can always tell by the kind of person that approaches me what they know me from.

Like, if you're coming at me, it's like they know me from being like a psycho.

But if they are, like they know me from being in a Pixar thing or whatever, you know, Like, but yeah, because you on SVU, like we're talking today about your role as Nick Brown, where you're this you know, kind of like sheepish rapist, I would say, and like, but then you're also then, like just last season, you play like a real stand up guy just trying to date, like just a professor trying to date another like or therapist or addition another therapists.

Yeah, and clearly casting knows your range.

Yeah, but because of your previous work, I was suspicious of you immediately, and me too, I was waiting.

For the turn.

I was waiting literally doctor Gary Schwartz to have orchestrated the entire attack.

I mean, many people think he should have.

I'm open to bringing the role back and having that be the reveal that I actually I did do it and I almost got a wait with it, but no.

Yeah, gory hear, he's the fake out.

Do you watch that?

But do you watch what you're in?

Do you watch stuff?

Yeah?

The eyes missing in that one was tough.

Oh yeah yeah yeah, I rewatched last night and I really didn't like the missing eyes.

No, super gross, super gross.

So wait is your what was your first foray into the Dick World universe?

Was it Chicago?

PD?

Uh?

Yes?

Yeah?

Yeah, because that was this this this s few episode was like was a twenty later.

I think it was like in the twenty later later Team twenty seventeen in Chicago p D I.

Think was twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen.

So did they just like they just like were like, hey, do you want to come play this?

Did they send you the Jenes script?

And you were like, no, I.

Thought audition for all this stuff they will hand out.

I'm surprised for S for You that you did, just because they already know you from PD and like I feel like once you're in they usually are like, oh, you'd be good for this or whatever.

But yeah, no, all three, all three of my Dick Wolves.

I gotta earn those roles.

Yeah, damn, damn, damn.

I got to learn those sides.

I gotta tape that tape in my basement these days.

I gotta get in front of a black white wall and send it in.

Yes.

So when you when your manager Adrient calls you, is like, Okay, you're gonna be this guy.

You're a rapist for sure, but you have a gene for it, Like what are you thinking?

You get this like audition?

When you get the script and you're like seeing all how this is all gonna play out?

This was I mean, no, no shade to like S for You, but like these lines were tough, you know, like to be like I was born to be a rapist?

Tough line.

That's a tough one.

The idea of like you're on set and they're like, can we go again from I was Born to be a rapist?

Can we can you hit rapists a little harder?

Yeah?

My buddy saw this episode when it aired and he immediately like rewound it and videotaped me saying those lines on his phone and he will just he'll just send it to me.

Randomly, and he's like, you have no.

Idea, what a gift this is that like, at any moment, I can send you video of yourself saying these words.

And how did it feel?

Like?

Where did you guys film those meetings?

When they arrest me?

This was weird and I don't think normal.

But we were shooting in an office that was still functioning like they did not.

It wasn't like they had blocked off this whole building.

It wasn't some ability.

But he gets the day off, stay working ignored.

Literally they like cleaned out, like these five desks already go over here, so like I'm doing this and there are people like doing their work nearby.

It was incredibly weird.

But how are they not distracted?

I would stop typing for a moment and watch they.

May have been.

It was such a tight shot.

It was really just like in my Little Cuba.

Yeah, so it kept they kept the top the shot very small.

Do you remember industry what they were doing?

Suits?

Suits, suits and desks cubicle.

Okay, wait, I'm obsessed with that scene because your character is such a bad liar, Like you're just like, oh, I found out from another guy who works at the bar, like you just like you really did play him really well.

And then you're just like I did it.

It was me.

I fold so quick, it's so faut, like maybe.

The fastest fold in SPU history.

They didn't even get you into the dark interrogation.

No, correct, No, but it's a genetic disposition.

So I really, you know, I had to come clean.

It's just who I am, right, It's just just who I was.

I mean, we can take an SVU break and we can talk about VEEP if you'd like to.

I can chat anything with y'all.

Love.

Oh my god, was that fun?

And it was the convention episode.

I mean, you were really there for some fun days.

I did, Yeah, I did, Like I think four episodes of that season before I got dumped.

It was a blast.

It was an absolute blast, a room of monster comedy, heavy hitters, like just so solid and the most fun process that I've ever been a part of in terms of TV, because they treat it like they treat it more like a play.

So like before anything, I went out to LA.

This is when it still shot in Baltimore.

But I went out to LA and they just had like a hotel ballroom and they set up chairs and we just we read it and then we stood up and we walked it through, and then we put the scripts down and did all sorts of different stuff.

It just played through it, and because Julia Louis Dreyfuss and Tony Hale are brilliant, you get to organically see them workout beats and find new moments that like are not there in the script.

Like there's in one of those episodes, there's a great moment where it's when I'm rehearsing my kiss with Catherine.

We're like trying to figure out how to do this kiss at the convention, and we don't know how to kiss each other.

We're very awkward, and they find this moment in rehearsal where Julie Louis Dreyfus turns to Tony's character and says, like, how hard is it to do a kiss?

Right?

And he leans over to her and he's like, I know, right, and they just like lingered there for just long enough where he gets convinced that maybe she's gonna kiss him, but like that is not in the script.

That just came from them sitting, you know, close enough on a couple of chairs in a hotel ballroom to be like, you know, no, no, and then some like you knew she saw it and was like huh, like hey, yeah, like that you almost did you think she was gonna kiss you?

And he's like I did, and he's like play that like that that's a thing, and that you don't You don't have that time unless you're working on like an HBO comedy that has all this money, because every other show you get the job, you show up, they're like, let's read the lines, let's shoot that your coverage.

You're done, have a great day.

You know, it's super fast.

So to have that time to go in advance and like really treat it like a play and find all these moments was so much.

Fun and how much time from rehearsal to shooting is there.

There were weeks we went out, we went out to Yeah in Ellie, I think they'll I think they had the first two episodes written at that time, so we just did it for those like first two to get the season rolling and then everything else was I guess more standard and that you know you'd have the script, but they they still give you so much room to play on set, and they kind of have to because like that show, the effects, it's it's brilliant and the tone is always spot on, but the script changes all the time.

Like I've never been on a show before where I'd be nervous to go to bed because I was like, I think revisions are still coming in, like yeah, like I've.

Got to be up at eight am.

I'd like to go to bed now, But like da, I just got an email with a new script, and like I just feel like more are going to continue to come because they're just always playing.

They're always with new bits.

So I was trying to beat that joke so that they're always like fine tuning and finding, like let's let's go one more, let's get one bit, let's go a little bit harder with this, which is exhilarating, but it's also like it's a lot, it's a lot to like carry into.

Like I just I just read this line.

I feel like I could watch that show series like ten times through and still catch new jokes, Like it's so crazy.

Yeah, Orange is a new Black.

Were you in the first season or second or no, no, later, four, fourth or fifth or something?

Right?

Okay, so they clean house after three, A lot of the guards get fired, Yeah, and then you're the new crop with like Latin, the new crops is gone at the Butmi Tarvor's Emily Tarvor.

I come in with Emily Tarvor.

Yeah, one of my fellow interns that U see be back.

In the day, Me and Emily right on, Emily's fantastic Mike Houston came in my year.

It was like a whole new batch of guards.

Yeah.

And the big bad bearded guy yeah yeah, yeah, what's that same?

We had enough with him being a psycho and then you were bad too, and it.

Was like no, no, we were in all his little like trolls underneath him, like he was the one that got on the focus and we all kind of like ran around being shitty underneath.

But didn't the other guards also think you were kind of creepy.

Yeah, they didn't like.

My style, like they were still shittheads, but like they didn't they didn't like that I was like like a creep, like.

A possible serial killer, Like yeah.

I think they were more just like let's like be abusive and harass and like sneak drugs and make money.

And I was like, no, that's not my thing.

I just want to I just want to be a creep.

You were on the Eric Andre Show.

Do you remember your time there?

Yeah?

I do remember my time there, because he.

Says that Lauren Conrad was like the worst guest, like she was the least down with it.

Do you remember moments like what was your part or were you in the prank?

What was your Yeah?

Yeah I did a sketch.

Okay, what do you remember what it was?

Yes, it was a faux kids show, like uh, we were like, yeah, we're here to like we're in.

The city and we're like we are energy and let's go.

Let's go.

But then we just like wreaked havoc.

So we were like all like a peppy team of like we're out here to spread positive energy and let's go.

But then we like ran through Central Park just like punching books out of people's hands and like shoving them and tripping them.

And then it culminated with us pulling up in front of in front of the Museum of Natural History with a van and kidnapping someone.

And it was like one of the scarier things I've ever had to be part of because it looked like a real kidnapping.

Because they're filming that show.

All the hidden camera stuff is so good.

Like one cameraman has a backpack on and there's a camera pointing backwards, so he's looking at his monitor here with his back to everything that's happening.

Wow.

Another guy had was holding a motorcycle helmet and it's shooting through the visor of the motorcycle helmet and he's just looking down into the motorcycle helmet so he can see what he's filming.

So everybody on the street, it's amazing.

Everybody on the street just saw a white fan come screeching up right me and two other people jump out of the side of the van, grab a kid and throw it in the back of a van and drive away.

And a woman screamed an actor, scream stop them, stop them stopping.

So people started following the van down the street like it was hectic, very svu Adjason.

Did anyone call the authorities, I don't know.

They must be ready for those calls or something.

And people call the cops.

I don't know if they go back in and just like calm everybody down.

We're out of there, all sitting in the van and being like, what the fuck are we doing?

This is this is insane.

No.

I talked to Michelle Buteau about being on the show, and she's like, it's fucking scary.

She goes, you're bothering people and you're in the train and it's so tight, and he's just so in it and willing, and she was She said she was scared.

She's like, I would never do it again.

No, Like prank stuff is scary, especially in New York.

Like I don't want to get punched in the face.

I don't don't want something to like really try to like be a hero, and then I have to be like, I'm a this is a bit.

We're doing it.

We're making a comedy show.

Don't you pretend to kidnap people?

We needed it got what was it a bad trip?

It's just so such good pranks.

It's really cool.

No, and he's phenomenal at them, and he's so funny.

Like you said, he's so committed to them all the time.

And the best is because he's so he's so into it that people believe them.

People are like, this is really happening, and either they're like they reveal something of themselves, like they're into it, or they distance themselves in a funny way.

He gets the best reactions out of folks.

One of the greatest pranksters of our generation.

Yeah, I on IMDb there is a fact.

Well they lied and said you lived in Brooklyn.

But did you do a commercial with Michael Jordan?

I did?

I did?

Those are those That's how I got my SAG card.

So my career, we'll say that is ode to Charlie Sheen's decline.

So Charlie Sheen was doing Haines commercials with Michael Jordan.

It was the two of them.

They did like a number of them, and that they had this rapport back and forth, and that was like Haines was selling under pants using these two guys.

Charlie Sheen like went off the deep end and this is like two thousand yeah, yeah, yeah, all that stuff two thousand and six, two thousand and seven.

So Haines is like, okay, and Haines had done commercials with it was like Jordan and Matthew Perry, Jordan and Cuba Gooding Junior.

So it was always like this pairing of Jordan and a celebrity and then Charlie Sheen goes insane and I'm putting a little bit together here.

But Haynes was like, we trust Jordan with our brand, but like these other people, we don't have like really control over these celebrities in their lives and what they do.

So let's let's put everything behind Jordan and pivot to him and a professional actor.

So I was this they like distanced themselves from celebrities and did a casting for a commercial with Jordan and the premise was he's on an airplane and he's getting bothered by somebody who knows him.

So I, you know, was very lucky to book this job, but it was absolutely the biggest job of my career at that points.

But the job that got me my Screen Actors Guild card and I went out to la for a couple of days and we shot two days with Jordan, like it was four hours on each day, and we filmed like eight commercials and it was all just me sitting with him on an airplane just harassing him about how like I know who he is and me thinking like I could help him out.

And it was all about the bacon neck collar.

It was like their big product was these the collar doesn't bacon.

But it was an unbelievable job, so much fun to do.

The director let me like riff and play and kind of throw the scripts out and just like sit in this character of like annoy this famous person next to you, and he would just roll for minutes at a time and we would just go and go and go and go and go.

And then he carved it into these little commercials, which was great, and Michael Jordan was like fun totally.

But some athletes are like a little when they try to like do not that he was.

He's probably more the straight man you're doing the funny heavy lifting, but some athletes it's I mean.

I'm sorry, he's the star of Space Jam, so.

True, that's right.

Put some respect, put some respect.

I'm sorry, you know, famously, I haven't seen space Jam.

It's a blind spot.

So I have a space jam lamp.

I don't know if you remember that.

I mean I forgot what the aliens alien right now in your current home.

Yeah, because a few blocks away is like a sports timon.

I have a I like to I like stuff, and so I went in and I went.

I love stuff.

It was the Monstars as little the little Aliens on the lamp and I went, how much is that?

And he goes, well, that's not for sale, but you can have it for like one hundred dollars or half.

And I go, I'll take it.

Oh my god, done, I'll take it done free.

Honestly, the answer is everything's for sale.

Apparently you know it's not for sale, but yeah it is.

Wait, so you were riffing with Michael Jordan.

Yeah, and was he so big?

I remember this commercial?

Yeah?

I mean he is he?

I mean what is he so big?

He's physically he's huge, and he's also like the most famous person in the world is Michael Jackson.

I don't know, like you know his outline?

Do you have next?

You wanna where coming to?

Have anything coming up?

You want to right right now?

The stuff I'm working on the most is tonight's show, which is great.

You know, it's it's something I can specifically plug because it's all day of but I'm like part of their monologue team, so like when they need a you know, like in a monologue for a late night show and they're like, for more on this, we go to head of sales for diamond coins and then it's like John Smitherson's like, I'm that guy.

Yeah.

A lot of the time for Fallon, which is a lot of fun.

It's great.

It's it's such fun work because it is live studio audience, which is so rare totally to be in that room, feel that energy, get those laughs, feel that instant feedback, and it's it's exciting because it all happens in the moment.

Like I get a call around eleven thirty or newish to be like, are you available today?

An idea just came together, Yeah, and then I go in there.

I get the thirty rock around two PM, go through wardrobe and makeup.

I rehearsed at three, rehearse with Fallon at four, and then tape the show at five and then I'm home by six.

So it's like this whirlwind thing, which is so much fun.

It's a blast.

You're on call like a doctor kind of.

I mean, they don't expect me to like always be available, but I can usually move things around and piece other stuff together to make myself free.

But yeah, it's it's very loose.

It's just you know, when they have the right idea and when it makes sense, they give me a ring.

But it's been great.

That's been like the past two years.

I've been doing a bunch of episodes for them.

Have you ever been there when it's a celebrity you're really excited.

About Yeah, jeez, I mean you have to be cool about it.

Yeah.

I had my kids there with me a couple of weeks ago because it was like this little period between where like all of the summer camps are over, but school starts on a Thursday, So you have these like three days where you're like, I need to be a professional and I have children and that I need to keep safe and so.

Somebody would make a billion dollars and they just offered a camp for those days, but they don't.

Feel the camp.

They don't just give me that three day camp.

And how old are they?

Nine and five?

Oh?

Cute?

Very fun ages, very very fun they were most concerned about, like, well, look if we go in there, can we go to Wendy's.

And I was like, hell, you can.

So we go to Wendy's, We pick up Wendy's, we bring it into the dressing room.

They're eating Wendy's.

I like, do my rehearsal.

They're watching it on the screen.

I was like, did you watch rehearsal?

They're like, yeah, you were funny.

I'm like, great, thank you so much.

I need that for my ego.

Hahaha.

They keep eating Wendy's and then they came and knocked down the door to bring me to the second rehearsal.

Right as they did that, my five year old knocked over her whole milkshake.

Now, these dressing rooms are beautiful.

They're like each they're so meticulously like decorated with a different theme.

The yacht room, the bandroom, everyone has its own thing, and there's just milkshake everywhere.

So I'm like one minute, and I start cleaning it up, and she senses it.

So my nine year old's like, oh shit, we better get on this.

So she starts wiping up milkshake and I go to the door and my five year old looks at me right at the last thing, she goes.

Don't tell.

I was like, I'll take this to the grape, don't worry about it.

So we I go out, I do the show and everything.

I come back and as we're leaving, because I like leave after monologue, I don't have to stick around, David Byrne is there.

She's promoting his new album and he.

Had some huge cutout with like a crazy costume, and it caught both their eyes.

I'm not allowed to stop and be like David Byrne, Oh my god, you know, but they can't.

Yeah, So they were like, what is that?

And I was like, let's go find now.

Children, ask all your questions of this man.

You don't know.

It's amazing.

So I like use them as a gateway into this conversation with David Byrne, which is really fun.

That's he's a legend.

That's fun.

And they didn't know it was just a fit costume.

Yeah, they were like, this guy looks crazy.

What's going on?

So you on your two parts on SV did you mostly work with like Shannabino.

Is he arrested you right?

Or who?

Or no?

Yeah?

And I don't remember to be honest.

In the first one, I don't remember.

It was.

All I remember was I had very little to do with Mariska.

In the first one, she I think, just comes in in my interrogation scene and I had not met her yet, because you know, my scenes are with these other cops, the guys that come and arrest me and stuff.

And I'm sitting in there the little interrogation room and she came in.

You know, you you read the lines through once beforehand, and she came in eating a taco, and I was just like, fucking hell, yeah, like working, she's just bringing a taco to rehearsal.

That's not like how in the character.

She doesn't like need to rev up or anything.

She just lives in like Olivia's body.

Yeah, So I just love like that she rolled in with a full taco, had her tackle during rehearsal, and then just like pushed the rest in her mouth and was like, all right, let's go on.

I really love that you told that story.

Yeah, she's good.

She's a lot of fun.

She was so fucking mean to me on this last episode and like just very fun, playful ways, you know, like where.

Was It's like either.

She's she's and it was before I think she even remembered that I'd done an episode before.

She's like had a feel about me the way I was in there, so like after my first take, she was just like, hey, you know we're taping these right And I.

Was like, ah, you fuck her.

That's like if I was nervous, that would bury me right now.

But I like, I feel comfortable enough on this show and in this room.

They're like, I'm okay, very interesting that you felt that you could fuck with me that bad on my first day on this episode.

But she was a lot of fun.

I got to work with her more on this most recent one.

We had a couple days together.

Yeah, she's great.

I mean, she's so good at what she does, and also she's a great person.

In that window of time, the documentary that she made about her mother was all the press was coming out for that on those days that we were on setting, so we got to chat about that a little bit and just like see the news come in about the film.

And she's very gracious and very kind and a lot of fun.

She's like, she's don't she's so talented.

She's such a force.

She's I think appreciates when you can like just fucking take some shit and like give it back a little bit and play, you know, like between takes and just be present and be fun and keep it light because when you're actually rolling, you're just talking about murder.

And assault and like the heaviest.

Yeah.

So I think she appreciates when, like, and look, everybody's in their own process and does their own stuff, and sometimes between takes you need to like go be by yourself and be like, oh, I got to kind of stay in this pocket, especially what you're doing.

And on this most recent episode, wasn't a bad guy.

I was.

I was this chummy trying to like I was, you know, pining after this woman who had been hurt and I'm trying to like prove to her that I can be there for her.

So like that's an easier thing, I think, to keep alive a little bit in my body between takes as I'm like chatting.

And but I think she just was appreciative of like having fun between takes and being able to chat and just like jump right back into it because she can jump right she can just be like we're going boom, and she's right there, right where.

She's feel like you got to keep it light.

This subject matter can be so heavy that like, yeah you can't.

It's yeah, something's got to give, you know, yeah, you can't take it over.

So now you've been a rapist and a regular guy, a nice little dorky therapist man.

Now what if you were to come back to s few what what do you want?

What's the next one?

I was a killer lawyer?

What are we thinking?

I mean, the dream is that my dorky therapist guy can be him, like the bead Wong, you know, like could come in and start like consulting on a case.

Needs to bring a beauty Wong back.

Yeah, the show just got their first female showrunner this current season in the history of the show in season twenty seven, and she was like an original writer and producer on like earlier seasons.

And so I think it would be great if they they've already started.

It feels like to go back to some of the old ways.

And I think it'd be great to bring back a beat Wong character.

We miss the science, yeah, like.

Knowing the stuff and I feel like I learned so much.

Yeah, we need you back.

I'd love to bring in a beaty Wong, but not as like he's he was so straight.

Like he was, you know, very measured and really the science beyond it all and very thoughtful.

But I would love to bring like a like, I don't know, a touch of like the what bellser used to bring through it all, like just just like a more realistic therapist, just to kind of like take the piss out of some of these theories sometimes that they have because they can be so serious about their the way they're profiling someone.

Yeah, and if I could come in with like, that's not how it works, well, you know, we used to do it like that JK.

Simmons when JK.

Simmons was on the original Original Seasons and he was on regular Original Recipe, he would was like the therapist with the professional.

Stuff but was also funny.

Yeah, that's what I would do.

That's what I'd love to see.

Yeh.

That's one of the things.

I mean, I'm Kevin Kine's on right now and he's bringing some of the funny that I've missed from the bellser I Kevin those days.

Yeah, we're we had him before and he was like and he was like sprinkling.

He's also played five characters which is a record.

But now he's played this one, and he was like hoping to become a series regular, and now he's in the credits, and yeah, we just get really excited.

Oh it's fantastic.

I met him.

We both studied at Esper Studio.

And I met him doing all the work on Amy's.

Yeah, he's great.

He did our our podcast from Amy's trailer.

I think.

Yeah, he had a tough time because like all the work we've done has been about like Dixon farts, so he had to like knock on this door and have me answer the door and talk about like a rape, and he was like, this is just not what we normally do.

By I forgot.

You guys were together in that Oh my god.

Fun We never we didn't get to like work together on Schumer at all, but he was like a producer there, so we were always talking through the jokes and and you know, work.

Well and if you met at Esther you probably did lots of fun stuff.

Right.

Well, we were in different classes.

I was, he was in Amy's class.

I was a year ahead.

So okay, that's exciting.

It was, and you like to I'm assuming shift between funny and rape.

I do I do.

Yeah, so it is.

Look I don't.

It's they're both very fun.

It's fun to uh make stuff that's enjoyable to watch and comedic and and that you think is making people laugh and giving them a good time.

And it's also fun to be a bad guy.

Yeah.

It is fun to like express those things and explore those things and get into the deeper parts of your own psyche and think like, what could what could make me that upset with?

You know, how do I mind my own experience for those moments and those feelings.

Yeah, because some scars that we've interviewed, when they're super scary on SVU, they're like little sweethearts in real life.

So something about stretching your what you're who you are, like you're not You're not like the person at all, you know, you're it's true true acting.

Yeah, I mean I was.

I'm kind of like the guy.

But not not like too much, not too much.

I like I like carpets, I clean, I clean car.

Yeah, that's our that's our overlap.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh, this was so fun.

Thank you so much, Michael.

It's so great to plot you.

Yeah.

Great to meet you both and see you again.

We don't see you again, We'll never know.

I mean, obviously obsessed with him, Obsessed that you guys are knew people like.

I love that he's funny and doing serious work.

I yeah, because of his characters, I was like, Okay, a little weirdot I think, I mean, they're actors, they're actors.

But I just really liked him.

And I also can't believe he was in a commercial with Michael Jordan.

Yeah, but I also love that.

That's kind of one of the reasons why.

I mean, I obviously want all these talented actors to get hired again and again, but I think it might not even just be because he was in this Jeans episode.

It might be because of him in Orange is the New Black.

But I totally thought him in the season twenty six episodes that he did.

I just totally was the same as you.

Like, I was like, it's gonna be him.

He did it like there's something he's too he's.

Looking too normal and like cute right now, and men with a crush are a nuisance, you know, Like I was like, this guy's gonna kill her, but no, it wasn't him, And he was so fun to talk to.

Good stories, good details, more marishka context.

It's nice the taco.

I mean, we'll never forget We'll never forget the fucking taco.

When we finally get her, We'll be like, how.

Much how often do you have a taco right before you get on set?

I'm obsessed?

Uh, But Dan, I liked knowing the behind the scenes deep information, you know, because it is such an excellent show, so to know they're rehearsing so much weeks before the fact that scripts are changing day of Like it makes sense because it is just so good.

I sort of don't understand why more TV shows don't do rehearsal, Like I myself have been in TV shows where I've only got a couple of lines, but I'm like, how do you want me to do this?

And the director's like, just go for it.

You're like, what, Like, but why why don't we run this through?

Was?

You know, people in charge are about the bottom line.

They don't give a shit.

It's only profits, so.

Look at how good the product turns out when you rehearse.

A little bit like with Deep Like I'm not saying you have to fly everyone to a ballroom in another state, but like I'm saying even sometimes I'm on set and we barely do run throughs, you know, like h and it seems like so rough.

I mean, it's one thing on SVU where everybody is such a fucking pro they know how to get the shot like whatever, But I've been on some shows where I'm like, you don't want to like just make sure we're all going to be in the right spot, like barely do a blocking you know.

Yeah.

But anyway, I felt like this episode again, it is feeding the narrative for Olivia of her doubts about her own past and now Noah and all that.

But do we really need.

To give anybody any fuel to be like, well, here's why it might be okay that you're a rapist, Like here's why, like you know what I mean, like the percentage of men who rape, like so many men out there are are related to rapists that don't commit rape.

So I don't really feel like the rape gene is a possibility.

No, no, because there were also teens in that group who didn't rape, yes, you know, like and even if they had the urge, But yeah, you can't like.

Just that one kid was just like terrified of women, like he had never kissed a girl, and I think he was like, anything I do is.

Gonna hurt a woman.

Probably I think it looped into this fucking weird cult group, you know.

That's what I was just about to say.

I'm like, I don't think you would have to deal with this if.

But it's tough because I don't believe in rehabilitation for sexual predators.

I think I think I believe in castration.

But then I do want to believe in people not committing rape, So it's really tough.

Like I don't know, well, but I guess if you have the urge to rape, But like all these rapists, I don't even think have I just think men.

I think men just rape.

All the time I was watching I saw a post where someone was talking about like they were talking about a guy friend about an assault that happened, and the guy's response was, oh, maybe he didn't know that you didn't want it, or maybe he didn't know what he was doing.

And it's this thing of like immediately defending a man that you don't even know while a woman you know is telling you something, and it's like it's like this common understanding where it's all of a sudden, like have you been in that moment, Like, have have you looked down and there's no way you didn't know?

Like, I don't know, Like even having that excuse is crazy.

There's just and there's all kinds of like excuses.

It's not a gene.

The Giselle Pellico, the guy that like tried to get out of it, was like, well, I thought she was dead.

His excuse was, well, I thought she was dead.

Wait is this the guy who went to appeal and got more time.

Yeah, well I thought she was dead.

Ever, and it's like that's illegal too, I thought she was dead.

Yeah, Oh my god, I did not know that was the excuse.

That's so fugged.

I thought they hues was I thought she was like into it or something.

But no, because it's not a it's like some of these I guess I'm like babbling because I can't make my point because I don't even know if I believe it or it's right.

But it's this thing of like these guys of this overwhelming urge.

But I think a lot of guys rape because of opportunity mm hmm.

And there's men that would never rape with opportunity.

They could be on a at a party with a blackout drunk girl and carry her home, put her into to bed, and leave the house.

There are dudes that do that.

But I wonder if the men that do rape in that moment have lived a life of wanting to rape and suppressing it and then have this opportunity or is it like, oh, it's not a big deal.

She's passed out, she said yes earlier.

Like I wonder if they really think they're not raping, if they know they're raping, have they suppressed it forever?

Like I don't know.

Well, there's also just like cultural thing of like when a guy gets an erection, you have to like it's gotta be taken care of.

Like I mean, I started reading about blue balls in like teen magazines when I was like twelve, where it was like it actually really hurts a guy.

Like so sometimes I think it's like these guys are opportunity, are like, well I have this boner, what am I gonna do?

I gotta get rid of it, you know.

Or it's like it's if they're passed out, they're not gonna notice or what I mean, it's like fucking the gymnastic.

Okay, So I have been watching Love Is blind UK and one of the guys in the pods immediately was like, do you what's your sex drive?

Like do you want to have sex every day?

Twice a day?

Like what sex?

Sexuality is important and sex is important.

It's like everything sex is important, but you're acting like if she doesn't fuck you every day, it's some loss of an agreement or something that I just it just sickened me, Like I know what that question is.

And to me, it's like, you're someone that's gonna cheat on your wife when she's pregnant or can't fuck or is she's sick or depressed or whatever it is.

And then esther Parrel.

I saw this interview where she goes, actually women have more desire to fuck you.

You guys aren't giving her the fucking she wants.

That's why you're not desired.

So it's like, if you're in this marriage and someone's not fucking you, it's so easy to go, well, she has a little sex drive.

I'm a man, I need a fuck.

Why aren't you fucking me?

You said you want I have a you need to fuck me every day?

Or this marriage?

Yeah?

Yeah, And that's one of your first questions of getting to know someone to me, I'm like red flag, red flag, red flag.

Yeah, And it's like someone will want to fuck you if you're like fucking them well all the time, and if you're and the fourth you know, it's the class and it's the emotional connection many times, you know, for women, and I'm sure for some men, but for like mostly for women, it's the arianomatics sand of all where he's like, yeah, fuck me, and she's like, well, you aren't nice to me all day, we don't hang out, we don't spend time together, and you just expect me to fuck you right now.

Like that's how it works, you can say him.

It's like his need of needing to get fucked every day was something she had to prove to him.

And then it's like you owe me sex, not oh, I should like seduce my wife in a nice way.

So I don't.

I don't know.

And one time a girl told me like, nothing's less attractive than a man that's desperate for sex, like that that's gross.

Yeah, And I liked.

That because a really hot actually someone that's been an SVU famous person message this girl to try to fuck and wrote like I want to make you squirt tonight or something like that, and I was like, oh, he's so hot, and she goes, no, I don't like men that are desperate for sex, and I go interesting, you know, like I mean, so you can't get it, it means you're like gonna be desperate.

It means you might rape at the end of the night if someone's blacked out.

Like I don't know.

Yeah, Like being horny is like kind of childish and pedestrian.

Like even if you are, don't like flaunt, like, don't throw it out.

You should make it seem like you're getting it, yeah, or that we don't need to do it to like I'll take you up the next Like I don't know.

It just means like you've been here before.

Man.

Yeah, when you're desperate, that's not hot.

Desperate for sex is not hot.

Yeah please please.

Yeah, super not hot.

I mean in the Pods you said you would fuck every day.

And it's like you're not nice to her.

You're like constantly on the phone.

You went out and then she was upset one night and he goes, well, you need to communicate and.

Let me know yourself.

And it's like there's other ways of communication that are not verbal that woman was clearly upset.

Yeah, for you to blame her, to not communicate how she's feeling when like you don't see any other context, it's just crazy.

I don't know.

That show's obviously crazy.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah one.

Yeah, there was the one couple I really like did end up together and at the reunion we're still together.

So I was really happy.

But oh nice, I didn't know love is I didn't know Love Island people love is blind.

Oh, it's love is blind.

Its love is blind.

I've been seeing a lot of Love is Blind memes.

I don't really understand anything that's going on.

Well, there's just a new season.

I refuse to watch any of the US ones anymore.

Yeah, the US ones I'm seeing, and I'm like the British one sucks.

I just you must be an unwell person.

It is what it is.

If you're okay forcing yourself to walk down the aisle fourteen days, like it's okay, nothing's worked.

Maybe and it's like maybe you do internal work.

I don't know.

Yeah, oh my god, because anyone can lie, anyone can say anything.

It's also like, we know what when you get into a new relationship that's not that's not a sustainable thing.

Like it just seems so silly, but you know.

Yeah, it just feels like none of these shows where marriage is a requirement at the end really always work out.

I mean a couple of them have, I guess, but I don't know.

Okay, should we move on to what would Sister Peg do?

Yes?

Please?

This is our weekly segment where we direct you to a book, an organization, a doc, an episode of an oxygen show something to give you more information about what we talked about today.

And this week, I wanted to point you to an article from the University of Oxford's Practical Ethics blog, and I think like Oxford is a good, good source British et cetera.

And it's titled is sexual Offending Genetic?

And the shortthanster is not really.

But the article is interesting because it does point out that a multitude of genetic traits can contribute to someone becoming a sex offender, but environmental factors are still the predominant cause.

So if you'd like to read more, you can check out the blog.

It will be linked in our show notes and it will be shared on our Instagram the day that this episode comes out.

I put those in the stories and then I save them forever in our WWSPD highlights, so you can always page back as giving season comes around.

If you're not able to give to any local food pantries to cover people that have lost their snap benefits, you can always page back and see some of the charitable organizations we've hosted in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed Up Pod.

Hell yes, and we will be doing next week the episode Desperate from season four, episode eighteen, a fucking classic, so join us.

Such a classic classic.

Bye guys, see you next week.

That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner.

And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Dun Dun