Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories.

Done done, Okay, that's messed up In SVU podcast.

I'm Liza Traeger, I'm Kara Klank.

You guys know the drill.

It's SVU episodes, it's true crimes, it's guests and first it's gab and listen.

I'm sure you have things to tell me.

But I did just get a message before we got on this recording from a listener who said that they cannot divulge their sources, but they heard that Dick Wolf was in a very quiet meeting and his phone went off and the tone was the SVU theme song.

So I don't care if it's true, it's gossip.

It's fact to me, and it's funny to me.

That's really funny.

It's awesome.

It's like every time the phone rings, he's reminded of a new more money.

He's about yeah, exactly everything, Like I bet he gets a piece of the ring tone, you know, Like even that he's like, yep, one hundred percent.

We should fucking find the composer, dude.

Oh yeah, you know everyone's doing the dances and the fun videos and you know the guy and the piano, but like, who's the composer?

And also why is the SVU theme song so much better than the regular and the criminal intent?

They're all kind of variations on the same one, but SF you just slaps harder.

No one's doing dances to original on order.

No, it is just the best, like all together.

I don't think original recipe thought that sv would kick them off their throne, you know, but like it is what it is.

Yeah, it's fucking good.

Oh.

I ran into a good friend of ours, Mindy Tucker.

Oh yeah, and god, I got the best photo.

I can't you, guys, you don't even know what's coming.

She's the best photographer in the game.

I would never hire anyone else but her, to be honest, And she invented, I think, comedy photography in the New York comedy scene for sure before I even got here.

I knew about her before I even moved to New York.

And now it's really with the Internet become a thing where a lot of people do it, and a lot of people are talented at it, but no one makes people look better.

She was the first.

Yeah, no, she is the best.

And I just ran into her husband when I was in the city over the summer because he does stand up, which I didn't.

Know, and he was great.

Well, Kara, she wanted me to send you a message.

What that She listens to the pod and she was really happy what we said about the Saudi Already Arabia Comedy Festival and then she felt so isolated and disappointed in people and that we made her feel heard.

Mindy baby anytime.

Because she's just rejected that she has been doing for a decade because she's.

Putting her money where her mouthress.

Yeah, but yeah, so shout out to her.

She's the best.

And if you're in New York or anywhere getting married or have an event or or a comp or you need a headshot.

The only reason she didn't do my wedding is because she was invited to my wedding.

That's yeah, like she didn't.

I like she was.

She didn't do my wedding photos because she was invited.

But what was I gonna say if any of you have been to our live shows and you've gone on my venmo and you're like, is that you with the brown hair?

That's a Indy.

A lot of when you get a Mindy, you keep the Mindy as your like profile for a while, like it used to be.

Yeah, if you got a Mindy, it's like a huge deal.

Well, I hope that he goes back and listens to our episode where we interviewed James or Baniac because I told him about how she has such a sweet little Southern accent because she's from Alabama and she'll be like, oh my god, I'm at James or Bainiac and we told him that, and you know, now it's now, it's on It's on podcast film forever.

The way we get to flex about our guests.

I did a Devin Walker's music podcast, so if it hasn't come out, like look out for that.

But I name Dropp because I was talking about stuff and I was like, well, you know when Wycliffe did the pod and he does, excuse me, it's like so to flex.

I did meet a Bravo celebrity last night.

You don't watch below Deck, but I met Fraser.

Oh okay, I've heard the name and I did last night.

He was so like, is he on the one with Captain Jason or is he a captain Sandy guy or is he with the old guy Lee is gone?

He's sandy.

I've only watched two of his seasons when he started, but now he's like full chiefs too.

I mean, he looked and smelled incredible.

He really did.

It was an honor.

And then I also saw Jeffrey self last night.

Oh, I hadn't seen, I would say in years.

He I thought of when Diane Keaton passed away.

I literally thought it.

So I obviously brought that up, and he goes, no, I was taking a nap or he was reading, he was doing something, and he said he woke up to eighty eight texts and that he just saw.

I was like, thinking of you.

You're the first person I thought of, and he goes, great, Cola Scola died.

This is because they're best friends.

Jeffrey with Cole's date to the Tony's And if you're unfamiliar with Jeffrey's work, probably one of the smartest people I've ever met.

And funny, it's so funny.

But yeah, and then so I don't know if it was relief that it was Diane Keyan, but like, obviously never thought about.

They're very connected.

Yes, yes, someone that wait.

I don't think I told you that.

I watched The Drop.

Oh my god.

So Meghan Fay, he was out last night too.

Oh okay.

Jeffries is the waiter in that movie, and he's so funny.

I really had a star studded night.

It's all coming back to me.

Yeah, Meghan Fay, he was out last night with her boyfriend Leo Woodhull Woodhull And yeah, I partied with my I forgot, I forgot.

Yeah, But I watched The Drop on a flight.

I liked it.

Yeah, I liked it.

I thought it was cool.

And it's like a bottle movie, like it all takes place basically in two places and but mostly one.

It's also just captivating, talented, hot, and so nice and talks about our podcast so kindly.

Yeah, and it was photos from last night.

Oh my god.

I love how you're piecing it all together.

Now, what other guests of our podcast did you run into that you forgot?

Yeah?

I have no photos, Okay, so that's interesting.

But yeah, I definitely had a great time.

I did a game show, Matt and Dave's Yeah, SHRAMADNSA And it's just they're really smart.

There is a winner my strake.

I won and it's controversial.

I did think the other guy deserved it, and so that's tough.

I drink.

Did you have Devin or a Meal?

I had a meal, okay, and they both were great, but like a Meal lost last time because he didn't know the words to the lip sync and he didn't know the words again to the lip sync, and so to me, that was insane and I was like a toddler and Tiara Mom I was in the audience yelling at him, like mouth, what was the song Olivia Dean?

I mean, it's a weird song.

They picked their two hip.

It was like it's a woman that's opening for Sabrina Carpenter.

But Matt said MSG was sad, like people were there first.

So she has a big hit.

Yeah, I've heard of her on Who Weekly.

Yeah, they've they've talked about her.

So I had I listened to it a bunch and they're like, we listened to it.

I go, did you look at the lyrics?

Did you google the lyrics?

And they both stared at me, and Devin has a podcast about lyrics.

I go, So you just thought you were going to listen to the song without looking at the lyrics in front.

Of your face.

Oh my god, it's like straight.

Oh my god.

There was a photo of Ashley Tisdale and they can't get help from their coaches, and the straight men have to like, guess who it is?

It was Ashley Tisdale, Emil wrote Avril Levine, question mark.

It was.

And then we have to do a fashion moment.

We have to like go backstage and cut up a T shirt and like design it to honor their straight culture.

Right.

So we're working on this thing and I want to do a backless thing and then in front, and we're thinking and I go, oh, how about we do the j Lo Green Versace dress.

And he goes, oh, can you pull up?

Can you pull up a photo of that?

I go, it's not burned into your brain.

I go, it's the reason Google images was invented.

He goes, for real, I go, the fact that you don't know this is not gay or straight like this is.

He's also young, he's like twenty five or twenty six, but like, yeah, it's just the straits are really funny.

Yeah yeah, yeah them straights, Yeah.

This straight they're just it's just different culture, it really is, but and then it's dry race board secrets and us two teams had the same answer also three times but also wrong screwp mind but incorrect, but also cuoma is an answer for one.

So I'm excited I got it right.

So I'm like celebrating my sign up and I go, can please nobody take a photo and post that please of me holding a thing that says cuoma.

I forgot the name of this.

Casey had Junior g to listen.

Someone explained a horror movie to me, scariest thing I've ever heard.

Could me and Meggie, we couldn't even take it in.

I have to watch it.

So basically, this woman you probably know it.

This woman and her husband moved to Ireland in some remote, remote village.

He's a doctor, so he's working an overnight at the doctor.

What is it called adity?

Yes, I just watch it.

Wow, Casey only watch it last week?

Sentence Okay, so tell me how you let me just describe it to a kara because it is so this is.

A great I know exactly what you're setting up and this is a great conversation.

Yeah.

So she hears something right, so she hears something down the route whatever.

So she goes outside to check it out or check the mail something.

She goes outside.

When she goes back in, immediately the door bell rings.

She you know, who is it?

They go, hey, I just saw a man go into your house while you're outside.

Oh God, chills.

And so we were.

Debating what we would do, and people were like, I'd go outside and go I would never go outside.

I would like sit leaned against the door with a weapon so I can go outside.

But if someone's here, I don't know.

That's what I don't know.

Okay, Casey, this is we just had this conversation, and I think Tricia came up with the best solution.

So because the guy outside the door, who's like, I just saw a guy run into your house, he seems panicked, and he'd like is saying he wants to help her.

He's like, let me in so I can get or.

Why doesn't that I just call it?

Are we in a no cell phone, we're in the country.

We're in the country.

You're out.

But to me, my thing I have not seen it is if you're this remote in the country, who's this guy to even be here to see?

That's why it's like frightening.

This is what Tricia said she would do.

She said she would stay inside the house and say, if you really want to help me, here are my car keys.

Open the trunk, lock yourself in the trunk, and leave the keys outside of the trunk.

Then I will come in the car with you locked in the trunk.

We'll drive to the police station together I'll let you out.

WHOA, I thought that was a pretty good solution.

Damn, you married a genius.

Yeah, damn, she really fucking thought that through.

I have to be it's the guy who I can't wait to send him a voice note.

That's such a good one.

But we were all like so scared last night.

It's scary.

It's a good movie.

It's really good.

It's is it American?

The movie?

It's Irish.

It's Irish.

Ooh, I love that auditydy Okay, well wait, speaking of Irish, there's an Irish stew on uh below deck that I don't watch below Deck, but I did watch the new Salt Lake.

Have you?

You probably haven't seen it, right, because I've been ring.

I'm probably two or three behind, honestly on most Bravos stuff.

Yeah, it's really crazy to see the two genres mix together because the Housewives of Salt Lake go on the boat with the hot captain Jason and all the stews, but then they're just screaming at each other NonStop, and the stews keep being like dinner, the chef wanted to meet you, and they will not stop screaming to meet the chef.

They just keep screaming at each other and nothing's getting anywhere.

It's so crazy, and I think Lisa Barlow has run out her value on the show.

That's my opinion.

But dude, you know, if you if you can never take accountability, that's not interesting to me.

If you never back down, you're always that you can't apologize, Like, it's just not fun to even want.

I don't like it, and I don't like watching any on the Housewives really that thinks they're like too She almost thinks she's too good to be on it, Like she says shit like you guys are lucky to hang out with me, like she truly delusionally thinks she is like an A list celebrity, And it's so crazy.

It's like, well, Benn Walker isn't calling you his best friend?

Yeah, yeah, I hung out with Blake Lively.

I'm like, I don't think Blake's telling anyone.

She's thank you for a new best friend.

They do get like celebrities do watch it, you know, Like that's what's crazy.

It's like it's hard to watch all they're not like we love Lisa the most.

It's like even if Rihanna is like texting Heather, Heather's not the one that's like I'm better than all of you, you know what I mean?

Like, wait, this reminds me.

So during game show, I'm like trying to win and I'm showing the outfit and things aren't.

It's just not going our way in my mind.

So then I go, you know, guys, just so you know, backstage, she looked at me and said, I'd like to keep the song please, like Valentine that and so then Dave Masni's boyfriend later goes, I can't believe he said that.

That was so cool.

I go, I said that if he didn't know who Jay looked like, he didn't say that, he goes.

I thought that's the reason he should win because he quoted this deep cut Valentina quote.

No I was lying.

I lie.

Oh my god, Smart didn't know Smart you have to get your knowledge on them.

I know, yeah it was.

It's such a good concept, it's so fun.

I wish their TV show wasn't on Quibi.

Yeah, I say, maybe I can get another go somewhere else because it's just so well.

I think gay is out.

Unfortunately in this regime, they're like they're not really buying gay projects.

But also like where is anybody?

Where is anybody playing?

Like a fun alternative kind of game show thing like no one has had done.

And it's also England because I was talking to the comics and they're like there's a lot less panel and chat shows there.

There's just less production.

Like when people don't have food, they're not going to go to perform.

You know, we're going to eventually be performing for the rich or not again.

I don't know, like I don't know what's gonna happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll keep doing this.

Yeah, this will be We're not going anywhere you can go to that's messed up live dot com to get to Lisa's website, to get to our merch.

I mean, we have new merch coming, but I don't know when it's supposed to come out in time to get for Christmas, so keep an eye on that.

We'll obviously announce it on our Instagram as well.

And then yeah, you know, throw us a rating, tell a friend, I don't know, let's get started.

This is a good episode.

Oh and classic.

I also would like all the listeners to know that Radiator season has commenced.

Oh yeah, that means starts right or yes, yep, you got it.

So if you hear a banging, no you didn't.

No, there we're fighting happening at Lisa's apartment.

That's always the comment.

And I came in in a switch and I immediately to put on a brawl like it is steamy as fuck.

And the bank, the banking's actually okay, it'll you know, but yeah, it's started.

It started to see me New York Weather.

All right, Hey, so my audio is fucked because I had buzzing wires and so we had to use backup audio.

So if it doesn't sound as perfect as you usually hear it, it is fully my fault.

And it's just gonna sound like I'm normal talking to Lisa and she's at the bottom of the ocean.

No, I think it's gonna be fine.

The wires buzz I just don't have the space or time, but I'm looking at all these stuffed animals and cups like, yeah, I just I don't know.

We'll fix the buzz.

We're gonna fix the buzz.

Well, yeah, we'll be saying I moved some things around so it won't happen again, I hope.

And last thing, quick reminder that we do have new merch up in the shop.

Go to That's Messed Up live dot com.

Go to our shop link.

You got to get yourself a Lois Louise Louise shirt asap, a perfect Christmas gift for yourself or another TMU fan in your life.

And so let's get going.

Today's episode all right, Today the day is here.

We are doing Desperate Season four, episode eighteen.

We've been wanting to do this one.

It is so funny to have this podcast because it's like I always want to do these episodes, and we're like five years in more and there's still episodes where I'm like, how have we not done this?

I'm obsessed with this episode.

I would put it in my top twenty five.

I think I can't believe we're doing it.

It's my favorite Tommy in the Tommy universe.

It is like it's It gives me chills.

This whole episode gives me chills.

I love it, and I cannot wait.

Do we call our listeners Tommy's Yes, the Tommies wait, I love that.

Hi, Tommy's Yeah, the TMU Tommy's wait, the TMU Tommy's.

I think that's it.

That is it, And we can make merch that said hello.

That's like a name tag that says hello, my name is Tommy.

Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

I hope you guys like it.

Okay, we'll see, we'll see if it sticks.

Maybe it'll be our Christmas miracle.

Guys weigh in if you want to be the TMU Tommy's.

I think this could be it.

This could be it, This could be it.

Oh my god.

We can our Tommies, I can.

I can make little grids with all the Tommies I mean.

And it'll also be in honor of the person who's been tracking it for all these years as well.

Yes, oh my god fully, But okay, So we open on a very tense scene.

An old lady in a robe is like knocking frantically on an apartment door, going open the door, honey, you can do it, like there's a kid in there.

As firemen Russian, she tells them there's a kid trapped in there, and then they she goes Mikey stand back, stand back, and that.

Like got me confused.

I was like, is this the episode I was thinking of?

But it is.

So they knock the door down.

They find food burning on the stove, so it's not like it's a raging fire, but you know, and the firemen are like, everything's clear, We're good.

And then they go and they find little Mikey and he's like curled up in his pjs, huddling in a corner, and he's covered in blood and they're like, the kid is injured.

And then they find his mom, we think, in bed, covered in blood and barely breathing.

Aggressive.

So then we cut to the hospital where a doctor is filling in Benson and Stabler.

She's in critical condition, multiple subdural hematomas.

She's in surgery, unclear she'll make it.

Genital trauma shows she was raped and sodomized, no fluids.

I mean awful.

Mikey is okay physically.

The blood on him was all his moms, but obviously i'mtionally he's fucked.

Benson is in her bieber Swoop era.

She goes in to talk to Mikey.

He may have seen the attacks.

She's like, how old are you?

He holds up six fingers.

Did you see your mom get hurt?

She asks?

He nods.

He touches Olivia's badge, like, but he's not speaking, like he's not speaking any words, and then Stabler grabs her, and Olivia is like, you know, maybe he'll open up more when he sees his mom and can talk to her.

And Dunet done, the mom just died.

Credits Early Seasons, they get to the fucking chase.

I mean, like we're a minute, we're a minute of a cold open and we're at the credits.

Okay, so now very sad.

We're at the victims apartment and this kid is cute, the little Mikey.

He's cute.

At the victim's apartment, they can't find a handbag or a wallet, so they think this is like a purp who robbed her.

But this guy was careful, no prince, no seamen hair.

It's like, I think their point is like if you go into an apartment to rob and then you decide to commit a sex crime.

You're not probably being careful to like clean up your fluids and like you no not leave any evidence.

You're probably a sloppy criminal if you're doing something like that.

And they're like, well, it's a ground floor apartment with shitty locks.

It looked like he jacked open one of the windows with a screwdriver.

And then there's a little dexter type man there who's breaking down all the blood spatter.

He's like, look, this is a tiny detail, but did you notice that Stabler's tie was tucked into his button down shirt.

Wait into the shirt, like in the between the third and fourth button from the top, his tie is tucked in.

I think that guys had never that he don't drip on anything like I think guys do that if they're doing something messy, Like maybe he thought it would like since he's looking at the crime scene, like he tucks it in.

I just had never noticed that it looked a little sloppy.

But I'm sure, yeah, you're right.

It's like like, I don't know, I feel like it's the way guys.

It's the way that guys unbutton their jacket when they sit down, but then they button it back up when they stand up.

That's like a guy thing to do, like because you can't sit with your button open shut.

Yeah, it feels like there's all this like weird suit like men's apparel etiquette that.

I don't really know very much about.

But oh my god.

You know how I was betrayed by my laundry woman a few months ago, and she's fragrance when she shouldn't.

Yes, so my coffee girls like, hey, I'm gonna go get tailored.

I'm going to go to the end of the block.

I go, don't go there.

I think you'll get fucked.

And I go go to this place.

I go, this guy is legit, don't go to her.

And then today I went and got coffee and she goes, I should have listened to you, and I go, yeah, oh yeah, Well she goes, she's really funny that I go, yeah, no, she's very funny and personable.

She's lost dozens of my socks, and I continue to go, so, yeah, she's got a flare for sure.

That kept us going back.

But oh man, personality is not going to take you all the way.

I guess when it's your loan dramat you gotta have the socks.

So you don't have to have the socks.

You can't just I just don't want to be poisoned.

And then that's true.

The socks you didn't even care about.

No, just the poisoning.

Yeah, some of my best socks.

Yeah.

Okay, So little Dexter guy is there and he's breaking down the blood spatter.

He's like, look, you can tell from these patterns that he struck her twice with the lamp and then I mean, awful fucking details headed your way, a classic get ready to get sad.

After the sexual assault, he beat her even more, which was like pointless because she was already unconscious.

So all that information, plus the fact that all the blows were like to her face stablers like this seems personal.

You know.

This is like where regular cops would come in and be like it's a robbery gone bad, or like with an assault, but like these guys are the pros and they're like, no, this is like a rage attack of somebody who knew her.

So maybe Mikey slept through the assault.

Benson offers in a bit of wishful thinking, and then nope, unfortunately, more sadness.

They find a peace stain in the hallway.

So they can tell that the kid just stood by the doorway watching the attack happen and was so terrified that he beat himself Back to the neighbor lady who love her sounds like she smokes, eats cigarettes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

She is like, I was trying to help Mikey, but I didn't hear anything, like the smoke woke me up.

Like, and she goes, oh, the woman's name was Dana.

They moved in a month ago.

You go ask the landlord.

I bet his office in Midtown is a lot nicer than this dump.

So then at the landlord's office, this guy shady laylord.

He's like, yeah, her name's Dana maguire.

And then the guy is stonewalling them.

They're like, okay, great, give us her rental application, credit check, et cetera.

And he's like, oh, I don't have any of that.

I'm busy, blah blah blah.

And then Benson's like, cool, I actually work with somebody who gets slumlords, like prosecute some lords and got the last one to his punishment was living six months in one of his units.

And this breaks him.

He immediately admits this Montal was off the books.

He's like, it reminds you of the Aaron Brokovitch water see now, or she's like, and those that water has been brought in special for you from Hinkley.

Yeah.

Yeah, Aaron Brokovich clips have been showing up in my feed and I watch There's no way I even watch one less than three times in a row.

They know, it's just nice to see it.

And you're like, yeah, of course she won that oscar?

Are you fucking kidding me?

They know what you like, Yeah, yeah, too wrong?

What is it?

Too wrong?

That's all you got wrong?

Too wrong food.

Thanks for everything, Julie Numart.

No, no, it's a line.

She goes, we got off on the wrong foot, and she goes, that's what all you have?

Two wrong feet and fucking ugly shoes.

All right.

So the guy's like, oh, I could never I'll tell you everything.

He's like, look, this rot was off the books.

The mom paid for the woman paid for cash up front for three months, and Stabler's like, give it up, we need more info, or we'll tell the irs about your little cash payment situation.

And he's like, okay, okay, she showed me her id and I did memorize it, like he knows exactly this woman what her ID was address on her ID and it was the three hundred block of Central Park West, and Benson clocks that and it's like nice memory, asshole, and he's like, yeah, names I don't care about, but I never forget a prime piece or real estate.

So he clocked it because three hundred block of Central Park West is like pretty nice at the McGuire I would say almost every block of Central Park West is very nice.

At the McGuire residence on Central Park West, this douchey guy opens the door and he's like yeah, and they're like, we're looking for Dana maguire and he's like, yeah, that's my wife.

And they're like have you seen her?

When was the last time you saw her?

And he's like five minutes ago.

She's inside feeding the baby, Like fuck off, dude.

So now we go inside and we see the real Dana in a button down in a cardigan, looking like, you know, a white woman for Trumps spokesmodel.

And she's like, oh my god, so a dead woman was using my ID.

That's creepy.

And she goes, well, I was mugged on my way home from mommy and me class and the guys.

The husband's like in broad daylight on Columbus Avenue, no cops in sight, and it's like he's just like throwing a dig at the cops, like our cops supposed to be on every block of New York City, like I don't know.

And he's like, they caught the mugger maxing out her credit cards at me Sees.

So the guy got six months at Rikers.

They go talk to him at Rikers, we got the mugger, and he's like these fucking yuppie moms with their strollers and diaper bags and yoga mats, easy pickens, and it's like kind of funny.

I mean, I don't know.

I don't want anybody to get mugged in front of their kid, but it's just funny that he's like, yeah, I don't mug regular people, like I don't go to bad neighborhoods.

I go to good neighborhoods.

I mugg the rich people who are just walking down the street with too much shit in their hands.

They tell him if he tells them who who he sold the ID to, they can talk to the DA and he can finish out his sentence in a halfway house.

So he looks at the picture and he goes, yeah, yeah, I met her at a diner.

She said she couldn't work because she had no ID.

I felt sorry for her, And he's like, her real name is Jill, and so she had a son named Tommy, and boom another Tommy.

Here's where we go.

And then Stabler tells Benson, Yeah, you know, like you change your name if you're on the run from creditors or whatever, but to change your kid's name, you're running from something bigger.

So Benson gets a page on her beeper, which I don't really feel like I besides her and Cassidy struggling post sex to see who's beeper's beeping in season whatever we just did season two.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't really see Benson season four still with a beeper.

I mean, she moves on to like a palm pilot pretty soon, I feel like.

But anyway, Warner wants to see them at the Morgue.

So now we're at Melinda's house.

She confirms the two blows to the head on Jill and puts the time of death between nine and eleven PM the night before and the fire department didn't get called till five am, so more darkness.

Tommy was probably just in that apartment watching her die for six hours, which is so fucking bleak.

But Warner also notices that Jill had scars on her like abdomen hip area from a splenectomy, which is the removal of your spleen, and she says she probably had Hodgkins disease as a child, which would have been treated with chemo and would have left her likely unable to have kids.

So I ran the DNA and twist.

Jill and Tommy are not a match.

So Jill is not his mom.

Wow, done done.

So now Benson and Stable are with Huang watching Tommy play in the playroom for traumatized kids that they have, and Huang is pitching, oh, maybe it was an adoption or a kidnapping, et cetera.

And they're like, none of that really makes sense, Like there's no missing persons that matches him, Like, we're not, you know.

So she he shows them pictures that Tommy drew to express his feelings, and you know, surprise, surprise, he drew the murder, and then he drew Olivia, someone who he cares, who and identified her as someone who cares about him.

So there's a pick.

Of live, like a drawing of live in a mid length orange skirt which she would never wear.

But you can see he drew the badge.

So they're holding hands in the drawing, so obviously she immediately imprinted on him in the hospital and they are best friends.

This is definitely classic.

She has away with victims, you know, it's it's verres.

Yeah, drawn to her.

It's beautiful and she has a maternal vibe, you know, like so just related.

But when I was in Paris, I was walking along you know, the river towards towards the Eiffel Tower.

Yeah, there were two like red retrievers.

And only reason I know that this is my friend recently got one.

It was the best dog I've ever met in my life.

And one of them ran directly to me and just got pet by me and then went away when he was done.

Yeah.

I think animals know they can trust you, for sure, I hope.

So, I mean, you're the Olivia Bens and of animals.

But I eat them.

That's room what's bad.

And I think they know that.

But I think they The.

Cow has never run towards you, A pig has never run towards you.

Me and the.

Dogs have the same diet.

We're all eating animals.

Yeah, never mind me.

They're not judging.

You're right, you're right, You're right.

So liv goes to talk to Tommy in the traumatized child's room and she calls him Tommy and he's a little bit like shook, like how did you know my real name?

And she tells him she wants to help him, don't be afraid, et cetera, et cetera.

She asks him like, who do do you know your phone number?

Who do you call when there's a problem, And then he takes her little flip phone and dials nine one one and uh.

When she's like, oh, do you know your home phone number, he throws the phone down, and so she asks like, do you know any other numbers that you call in an emergency?

And he types this number in and Live walks back into the room with Stable and Wong and she's dialing the number and then she hangs up and goes, well, it's the domestic violence hotline.

So extremely the darkness keeps starkening in this episode, like this fucking six year old Rosie doesn't know my phone number, Like this six year old has memorized the domestic violence hotline number, like so so dark.

So at the DV hotline offices, I guess they're talking to a woman who's like, oh, fuck, Jill Hoffman, that bastard finally did it.

Like she knows the whole story.

And this woman is a dick Wolf frequent flyer.

Her name is Michelle Hurst.

Yeah, she's done four apps of SPU, four of original recipe, a criminal intent sprinkled in there for good measure.

She's done episodes we've seen her in.

So she starts explaining that Jill's husband, Dan Hoffman, was a violent son of a bitch.

He isolated her, drove her friends away.

She had nowhere to go.

She stayed at one of their safe houses once for a few weeks, but then she eventually went back to her husband in Rye because she couldn't leave her step son behind.

She loved that kid like he was her own and she wanted to take Tommy to the shelter, but they can't allow it.

Like she's the stepmother, not that kids aren't allowed on the shelter, but she's the stepmother.

She has no legal rights to this kid, like she hasn't adopted him or anything like she can't take him from his father.

So they told her to fight for legal custody, and they even found her a pro bono attorney.

So now we're talking to Jill's lawyer, played by the actor Welker White.

She is married to another Law and Order guy, Damian Young, who plays Hampton Trill in the episode or just Look Like One, which we've done at live shows.

Ins Oh, oh my god.

And I feel like I'm going insane.

But I feel like we met their daughter at one of our live shows, like we met at our Brooklyn show this past summer.

We met someone who's like both of my parents have been on Law and Order, and I feel like these are her parents.

And she came with someone to the show and I was like, oh my god, these I can't believe.

I can't believe Hampton Trill is your dad or whatever.

But please confirm if I have dementia, If if you're listening or you brought your friend, please let me know.

I'm almost positive, but it could have been.

She had two other parents who are doing it.

And I love this lawyer.

I love this scene.

I think like I am kind of obsessed.

Yeah, she's a badass lawyer.

She's like, listen, I can confirm that she's my client, but I can't say anything else.

And then they're like, well, you know, we're just trying to help Tommy, and she's like, well where is Tommy?

And she's like, are you sending that poor traumatized boy back to his father?

And they're like, unless you have good reasons why we shouldn't, And so she gives a little background.

She's like, Jill Mary Dan Hoffman two years ago, and the abuse started soon after Tommy's mother, Kim, left when Tommy was three.

So if Tommy six, his mom left when he was three, his dad got remarried to Kim basically when he was four, and now it's been two years, so just for the timeline of the family, and he probably beat the shit out of her too.

The lawyer says.

Lawyers like Dan terrorized Tommy psychologically but never actually laid a hand on him.

But Jill knew he would eventually turn to Tommy and like hurt Tommy.

They filed for emergency custody, but she, the lawyer's like, I knew it was a long shot, and Benson goes you knew she'd lose.

You told her to take Tommy, And she goes, I'm an officer of the court.

If I hadbetted my client in the commission of a felony, I'd be disbarred.

But she says it in such a like flat tone that's like, yeah, I definitely told her to fucking run.

Of course I told her to run.

I'm a human being, like I'm not, you know, But yeah, she did that shit.

So they're talking to the police department now in rough and tumble, Rye, New York.

Rye, New York is very close to where I grew up.

It's a very affluent, little like New York suburb, and I used to work at a store that had a store and Rye that I worked at a couple of times, so I've spent a tiny bit of time there.

The police chief is played by Adam Lefev, who we've talked about as well another Dick Wolf universe standby.

He's been in five episodes of SVU.

I think he were in Atlanta with Rollins or something like that.

But we've got him and we've talked about him before.

He has such a face to me like he's been in a ton of stuff, and I think I only recognize him from all the svus he's been in.

But he's telling Benson and Stabler, you gotta be confused.

Tommy's down in Florida with his stepmom, and this guy is president of the Dan Hoffman fan Club, nicest guy in the world, successful real toor sells houses to people escaping crime in your big bad city or whatever.

And then he calls his first wife, Kim, a tramp who ran away with another man.

And Dan has done so much to help this community, Like there's just she's just like showing newspaper articles like Jesse grabs the first newspaper you can see, and Dan Hoffman's like on the fucking cover for giving money to something.

So at the town paper, the woman at the paper is like, I've got tons of picks of Dan.

He's a major player and Rye and it's like small ass town like major player and she's got She's like, I've got picks of Tommy and Jill.

I even have picks of Kim, even though she'll never show her face in this town again.

And now Live goes to talk to Tommy like no one is like no one even questions where did this woman go?

Is everything okay with her?

They're just like dumb slut, She better not show up to any benefits around this town.

Like but anyway, I guess that happens when you have like a charismatic man controlling the narrative.

So now Live goes to talk to Tommy again, and she's made him a book of pictures, and he smiles when he sees one of himself playing soccer, but then he instantly face drops sadness when he sees a picture of him with Jill.

And then she shows him a picture of his mom, Kim, and he goes, who is that?

And he finally speaks, He finally talks.

He goes, that's my mom.

He has such a cute little voice, the best.

Tommy, He's the cute way I love me.

And my dad says, she ran away.

He said she didn't love us anymore, and then he goes, and then Jill came and made me cookies and tucked me in every night, and then she went away, but she came back for me and they're like, but we ran away, and they're like, oh, from your dad, and he's like yeah.

He's like, we were gonna get a new house far away where my dad could never find us.

But of course the timing of television is that as Tommy's talking, we hear Tommy, Tommy, where's my son?

And it's his dad and Tommy's so scared.

The second he hears his dad's voice, he's like locks up, and Dan Hoffman has barged into the precinct.

He's freaking out, like give me, where's my son?

Like you're holding him like and this sous.

Crazy because I only thought about the movie Ransom in this moment and then you did.

It give me back my son.

Yeah, so he is because when that little boy in Ransom Peace, when he sees the guy who really took him, like haunted me as a child.

Yeah.

Oh, it's like the episode, isn't it the Jackman Herdy episode?

Yep.

Yeah, that's where my brain went right after and then you said it it's like perfect.

So Dan Hoffman is played by Rob Estes, who I obviously clock immediately from Hollow's place, like classic Hattie, Like I was obsessed with this man as a youth, Like I thought he was so hot on Melrose.

I think he had a relationship with Jane Josie Bassett who plays a woman who drinks while she's pregnant in the in one of the episodes of SBU.

So you know, no one can escape.

But he is, you know, very handsome.

He's like a perfect casting for this, like handsome guy like you know, good talker and then tell this lunatic crystal.

Blue like Caribbean water like eyes.

But he plays he is so hot.

But he plays this role so well because I am terrified immediately.

I hate him instantly, and I'm not into it at all, Like, yeah, I don't know how everyone else has fallen for the act because I certainly am not.

And you're detective.

You're a detective head of police at Rye and you can't tell this as a freak.

You shouldn't have that job.

But cops beat their wives whatever, So.

Yeah, men would only clock this man as aspirational, like they would may be like look at this guy, hot wife, like big house, successful job, whatever, Like they would not be like they're sitting behind those eyes that says that he uh likes to control people and beat them.

But anyway, we're giving away, we're giving away too much.

As if you don't know where this is going, if you don't listen to if you don't even know this episode.

So Benson tries to tell this lunatic dad like stop it, like leave, like Tommy doesn't have to go with him, and then Stabler comes in to be like, unfortunately, yes he does.

Tommy has been medically cleared and released into the custody of his father.

This is a hole in the episode for me, Like, how would that be.

Oh well, wait till the real crime.

Why don't you wait till that and then maybe.

Oh god, then you'll know because like medically cleared.

Sure, physically, but like emotionally, there's no way we've already done a full work up on him.

There's no way we haven't deterurned.

Like no one has gone an answer whether that scared of his dad, Like no one has gotten like like an answer on how much he saw of the crime.

Like I just don't think there'd be any way that they're like, yep, he can go home with his dad now.

I feel like there would be some kind of foster cared temporary housing that would happen.

But relative, you could have another relative that could take him in.

But you're also right, he did he himself, which means he did see it.

Which means they would have asked some questions.

Right, like and yeah, it's a big hole for me that like it's like, nope, let's just let him go home with a guy who because whenever a woman is killed, the husband or the spouse or the partner or whatever is unmanac.

So it's like, you're not going to just let him go home with the guy who maybe did it.

I so wait for how mad you're going to be when I'm.

I'm pre depressed just thinking about it.

Okay.

So it's very terrifying the scene because this little boy is so good.

He is like frozen, and the dad picks him up and he's just like in his dad's arms, but his eyes you can tell he's like, oh my god, oh my god, like communicating to Olivia basically like help me, like and the dad's like, thank god, I found you, and like takes him away.

And I have to tell you, I obviously looked up Tommy to see what he was up to, because I think he's such a good little child actor.

He did quit the business sadly, and he is now a professional bodybuilder.

Wow owns a gym in Valencia, California.

So a lot if you want to see this little kid swoll as fuck.

He's got the exact same fucking base just as an adult like jacked jack jacked, like at a competition with Teresa Judice.

You need to do real but you need to send me this.

But also, if you guys want to see us take a trip down there for a personal workout with baby Tommy, maybe you guys should start a you know, a little.

Know, let's do a little campaign.

Let's do a campaign and then I make exactly right pay for it.

But I think we need to go to Valencia.

Yeah, and he just like teaches us how to lift.

I mean, I kind of love it.

I'm trying to get into that.

Okay.

So so his name is Max Weinstein, and I'm sad he left acting because oh my god, little Tommy what a cutie.

But and like, oh my god, he was just so cute.

But top of BAC three and Cabot's telling them, Okay, listen, Dan Hoffman's lawyer is threatening to sue you guys for withholding the information about Tommy's whereabouts and causing undue stress, and Stabler's like stress, my ass, he didn't even follow a missing person's report and Benson's like, we delayed notification by a couple of hours, Like it was not like we had him for days, you know, And Alex is like, that's not the point.

You were playing that fast and loose and you got busted.

And it's like Alex, and he wasn't even that fast.

Yeah, you pay play fast and loose all the time.

And also why is like I don't understand, Like I feel like you get taken away from your parent if you're a suspect in a murder, you just do like there's and there's no like until you've confirmed his alibi.

He's a suspect in the murder, Like so this doesn't make sense to me.

But anyway, now the boy is in a custody of a killer, they're saying, and Cabot's like a lleged killer.

And then she's got you guys really have nothing like it could have been a burglary and lives like he was about to tell me everything when the dad barged in.

We've got to reinterview him.

And Hoffman's attorney is going to fight it, and Craigan's like, well, then court order it.

He's a material witness to a murder and Cabot's like, I'll try, but some hard evidence on the murder would be super.

So they go speak to Hoffman and they're kissing his ass like apologies, like for the misunderstanding about Tommy and we're so sorry about your wife and blah blah blah, and they're asking about Tommy and Hoffman's like, yeah, I a psychologist told me that Tommy will make a full recovery.

And it's like, yeah, sure, he pissed himself watching his stepmom get raped and murdered and then sat there watching her die for six hours, like he's gonna be fine.

What therapist would ever just be?

Like, I can tell you right now he's gonna make a full recovery.

Like you've barely spoken to him, and you're like, he's all good still.

Stabler's like that's great news, great, great, and then they're you know, they're playing their little games with him.

Benson asked to talk to Tommy again, and he's like no, like like I'm not gonna let that you guys like traumatize him again.

And so obviously after that they dropped the nice cop act and they're like, you didn't even report your son missing.

You told everyone she was in Florida, and he's like, I lied to protect Jill so everyone wouldn't find out how emotionally unstable she was.

But you let your son go off with an emotionally unstable woman.

For a month, Okay.

Yeah, he was afraid of going to the cops that that would set her off, and she's always come back before, and so he waited.

That's his excuse that he was just waiting for her to come back.

So they asked for his alibi for the murder, and he goes, well, I was in the city at a realtor's association dinner with five hundred colleagues, and they can all confirm each every single one of them saw me and fed me a shrimp with their own fork, and they can confirm that I was there.

So they go to speak to a realtor who allegedly sat next to him at the dinner, and she's like, yeah, he was bored, so he went to the bar.

He promised me a dance, but he never made it back to the table.

I thought he stood me up, but he came back, and I was jealous because his clothes were all sweaty and messed up, and I wish he'd gotten sweaty and disheveled with her like that's basically her vibe.

It's like he looked like shit and I knew he fucked somebody in like a closet, and I wish it was me.

So it was around eleven when he came back, and she remembered because that's when she calls the babysitter.

So a single mom, I guess, trying to fuck at a real estate dinner, go queen.

So Benson realizes that, oh, he absolutely had time to sneak out and do this murder.

But what about the blood, Like he would have been covered in blood, like from the blood spatter, like this was a very violent crime.

And Stabler goes, coveralls worked good enough for OJ.

So we just explained that away, that this man brought coveralls with him to his real estate dinner, he put them on, he murdered, he got rid of the coveralls because he's not wearing he's not bloody when he gets back to the dinner.

So this is a week alibi.

Maybe Cabot can use it, they think.

So now we're in judges chambers and it's Cabot with Judge Alan Riddner and He's played by Harvey Atkin, and we've seen him a lot of times.

He's been in eighteen episodes of SVU, A lot of good ones that we've covered.

He's got kind of like a mustache and like around the head hair, like bozo hair or whatever.

I would call him no nonsense.

Yes, he's very no nonsense, like he annoyed.

He and Petrowski probably like get a drink and talk shit about Cabot all the time, like she's always trying to bend it.

Yeah.

So also in the room I completely forgot until this rewatch is Sandra Bernhard Icon playing Dan Hoffman's lawyer and the judging.

I love her.

I love her, obsessed with her.

How do they not have her back?

She's like perfect in this role, like a ruthless defense attorney is perfect.

She Yeah, I really liked her in this part.

She's great.

The judge is saying that the child is too traumatized and won't be interviewed until after he's undergone a psych evaluation, and Cabot offers Swung.

They have Objeck to Huang because he works for the cops, as if Huang doesn't do thousands of child evaluations like every year that get entered into court.

But whatever.

Hoffman's like, I've already hired another psychiatrist to evaluate Tommy, Like why does he have to have two?

And the judge like buys it, and Cabot's like, okay, well, can we at least put Tommy in foster care until after the evaluation.

He's an eyewitness to a murder that his father may have committed, and sam dra Bernhard aka Priscilla Cheney says they have no evidence of that, and Cabot points out that his alibi is shaky and there's a history of domestic violence.

Cheney argues that Jill was unstable and flew off the handle because Hoffman wanted a divorce and took the boy as an act of retaliation.

The judge says the child will remain in the father's custody with like no reasoning, Like there's definitely reasonable doubt here.

You're just like taking Sandra Bernhardt's word that this guy's good, Like it's crazy.

Him not Like reporting his son missing is like really substantial evidence to me.

Yeah, Like that is a clue And I don't know why that's being ignored by the courts, where it's like.

He's acting like he cares, but he didn't care for over a month.

Yeah, yeah, and like we find out later, like it's very easy to confirm some of the DV claims people neighbors know, you know what I mean.

Like, so I don't know, I'm just kind of like it's a loose police work episode, but I think it also goes to the premise that handsome, successful white men can convince people to do a lot of things there, that they are different people than who they say they are, and you know, like they get what they want a lot of the time.

So we definitely talked about that.

We've seen that before.

So I'm sad that he's making Tommy stay with the dad.

Cheney goes to Cabot, Dan is a kind gentleman and capable of violence, How can I convince you?

And Cabbit goes let the police interview him.

So now we're in wood room blinds, it's the cops and Cheney and Hoffman, and Stabler goes, uh, what about this forty five minute gap in your alibi?

Like, and he goes, it was a boring rubber chicken dinner, so I ran to a bar for a drink, and he goes, they go, well, the bar, get.

Drunk there, Like I don't understand, like if you're to get drunk, Like that's the thing they keep saying as an answer for everything, but all his answers are terrible.

Yeah, like none of them are good or work.

So right, was it a dry real estate association dinner because otherwise these yeah, exactly.

Or the hoteler, they're like, where this conference is at?

Probably at a bar, Like it just doesn't make sense.

You'd run out to a random bar.

I don't.

Yeah, you go to a bar after you don't go to a bar in the middle of it, like when there's an open bar at your fingertips.

I mean yes, anyway, So.

He's like, they're like, oh, really you were at the bar.

The bartender doesn't remember you.

And he's like the police was past, and he's like he has an excuse for everything.

But like you said, they're not really good.

And they're like, well, you were a five minute cab ride from Jill's like where she got murdered.

So if and he goes, if I had known where she was, I would have gone and convinced them to come back home.

And they're like, I thought you wanted a divorce, and he's like, I wanted my son back, and they're like, you got an answer for everything.

I'm not buying this loving father act.

Tommy is terrified of you, and he's like, Tommy is everything to me.

I would die for him.

And they're like, he almost died for you.

You killed Jill and left him alone in that apartment, and if firefighters hadn't responded so fast, you'd be burying him along with Jill.

And seriously, like why did he leave the son behind?

Like why would you leave your son behind?

After that?

Do you think that his son that he knew his son saw it?

Or do you think he his son was sleeping.

He doesn't know that Tommy saw, does he.

No?

But I feel like you would grab your son so that none.

Else would be no, because then it would be obvious that it was him.

And then he kidnapped his then he took his on because but he.

Knew that everyone he told him they were in Florida.

Yeah, he couldn't have done.

He had to leave him.

You should have turned the stove off, but that would have been a clue to.

I don't know, like who turned the stove on?

Was it no?

I bet his mom was cooking and then he burst in murdered her.

Yeah, thinking that, Oh, I thought he did it in this in sleep because it was like nine to eleve.

It happened at like ten o'clock at night or like remember.

But but my.

Thing, well, we find this out later.

But she she has a night job.

Yeah, she could have been like cooking dinner.

I don't know.

I don't know me because I don't think Tommy would have tried to cook.

No, you're right.

He I thought like I thought, oh, grab her, grab him, and when she gets found be like, yeah, I didn't know where she was.

She ran off.

But there's too many witnesses that would have said, like, oh, no, he's been living at this apartment with her, and he was.

He had to go back to this party for his alibi.

That's true, that's true.

You're right.

Could he could not have grabbed him, so he just left him there too?

Fixed out you're a DV.

If you're a domestic abuser, you don't care about it, like you're a bad person.

Yeah, but he sees people as his property, so I want to write it and take his property back with him.

But you're right, like that would have not.

That would have absolutely that would have serviced him and then him get him first.

Yes, yeah, yep, yep, yeah, he would have gotten busted.

You're right.

I didn't even think that threw all the way.

Okay, So Benson is like getting to him.

She's like in his face, like I'm not buying your loving dad act, like I see right fucking through you.

And he looks at her and goes, you wouldn't be talking to me like that if you didn't have a badge and a gun.

And that's where you get a little crack, you get a little track.

Yeah, because I would say so far, this actor like really plays it like he doesn't give any little bit of psycho away like some of the other guys will, like there'll be a look or like some kind of comment or whatever where they'll you'll be like, oh, there he is, and like until now this is like what we see, you know, like this is the Yeah.

I wonder how much my opinion is because I've seen this episode no less than thirty five times.

Oh, but he's chilling every time.

To me, I'm scared of him instantly.

But this, to me, it's like a clue and it's like why because you beat the shit out of women obviously.

Yeah, yeah, and he wouldn't have said that to Stabler.

Stabler was in his face giving him shit, you know, like he yea yeah, this man.

Sin is shin chang.

She more has satisfaction that she made him cry, loves getting underneath these guy's skin.

She can't.

You have a fucking gun and I'll kill you.

Get away from me.

So outside in the hallway, Benson is pointing out to Stabler, notice how this guy never says Jill or Tommy, although he did say Tommy quite a few times, but he always says my wife, my son.

He thinks of them as possessions, not people, which we said it's very two seconds ago.

Yes, yes, so true family annihilator.

Anyway, Munch has some info and he's like, listen, Jill, open your account.

Can you imagine you're the type of person in where we're like, oh, yeah, the guy who would family annihilate, Like you have to rethink your life.

You have to be just a little yeah, where we.

Would not be surprised if you truly murdered a whole family Like Eu, You're.

Like that sucks, Yeah, someone thought that of me.

That would be chilling.

Yeah, Idan, We're like, she seems like someone who would slash and murder her whole family.

I'd be like, geez, I must.

Suck, like yeah, oh my god.

But he has no self awareness.

He can't look any word like that anyway.

So Munch is like, listen, I got some info.

Jill opened a bank account as Dana Maguire and deposited some paychecks from JAG Enterprises.

And it turns out she was working as an entertainer at Benny's topless on twelve.

So at Bennie's, there's we're talking to a dancer.

She's like, listen, Jill was sweet, but she was a shitty dancer.

Listen.

She looked like Susie Homemaker.

So all these commuters that were on their way back to the burbs, she gave them boners.

You know, they love it, they felt.

They said it was like having June Cleaver give him a lap dance.

So not sure why she quit, but she freaked out a week ago when she saw a guy in the crowd that she knew from the town she used to live in.

And then a couple of days later she was gone.

So she goes it was a week ago Tuesday.

I remember because that was the night I introduced the cockatoo into my act.

So funny.

So where the fuck are the writers coming up with this?

Did somebody just like have a cockatoo and they're like, let's give the cockatoo to the dancer.

Like or they went to a strip club that weekend for someone's bachelor party and saw cockatoon and saw it.

Got it.

Yeah, It's like.

To have animals on set is hard.

You have to have a wrangler, Like, it is hard to have an animal on set.

So it's like just to have this cockatoo line.

They've got a wrangler on set that day, Like it's so crazy.

I love the way they spend money, God bless them.

The cockatoo line really made me laugh in this like really sad episode.

So Stabler like when they go, she goes, I remember what night it was because that was the night I introduced the cockatoo into my act.

Stabler makes a face like, yeah, sure, cockatoo fair enough.

It's such a funny face like, yeah, that makes sense.

I guess if you have a cockatoo in your act.

And then the dancer as they're leaving goes, hey, guys want you nail the prick, like they like, you know, she's like probably no stranger to men being shitty.

This woman, it feels like, so she's like, get whoever fucking killed the sport innocent woman?

So they find out and meanwhile, notice that like nobody at her work is like she's emotionally unstable and crazy and anything like that.

You know, like, yeah, they would know.

So they find out who the guy is that she saw, and it's somebody named but like they go through credit card receipts at the place or whatever, and they find out that this guy's name is Mike Rizzo, and he spends a lot of time at Benny's topless, and he's begging them please don't tell my wife.

She thinks I work a lot of overtime, fucking loser.

And then he says, yeah, I saw this stripper who looked like a dead ringer for Dan's wife, So I called him on my way home.

I thought he'd get a kick out of it.

I mean, I swear you put her in an apron baking cookies and half the town would swear it was Jill.

So now they're filling in Cabot.

The man are so clueless.

Yeah, I can't.

Yeah, I can't.

Oh my god.

Okay, So now they're filling in cab You know this guy well enough to call him on your way home and tell him I think I saw a stripper that looks like you're wife, But you don't know that his wife's in Florida with the kid for a month, Like I don't whatever.

So now they're filling in Cabot.

They're like, listen, he could have gone to the club, followed her home.

His alibi is a massive hole in it.

No one remembers seeing him at the dinner dance.

They keep calling it for a full forty five minutes and Gabbat.

Gabbott says it's enough for an arrest, but they may not make it past the grand jury.

This guy has everyone fooled with his father of the Year act.

He's handsome, charismatic, he's a grieving widow now, and Cabot goes, I can do a silent indictment without arresting him.

I feel like we've seen one of these before, but this is like kind of the first time.

I'm getting it.

Basically, you can present the facts to the grand jury as part of an investigation, in which case you're not obligated to notify Hoffmann, and then he can't testify on his own behalf.

So she's like, I'll do it in the morning and then you can pick him up.

It's a little it sounds like it's a little bit like it is legal, but it's like a little bit of a shady move or something like a loop holy type of thing.

So they pull up to his like mansion and Rye and Olivia starts talking to Tommy, who's playing soccer.

Hoffman comes out and is like, I'm gonna file a straight restraining order against you and sue you for harassment, and then they arrest Hoffman while Benson comforts Tommy.

So now top of the final act.

In court, Hoffman pleads not guilty and Cabot requests hermand Yeah you know, Sandra Bernard is like, the client is a community leader with no record and a sole caretaker of his son, and Cabbot goes, well, he wouldn't be a single parent if he didn't kill his wife.

And judge, which I love that.

I love a little fucking shady dig and control yourself, miss Cabot, and then he sets fail at one hundred k okay, So one hundred thousand, which the guy will get in has in his pocket probably.

Cheney requests a speedy trial and throws shade at Cabot for doing her little grand jury maneuver, this little silent like silent jury thing.

So she starts explaining herself, and the judge is like, Babe, I know the law, and I also know your reputation for doing whatever the fuck you want, so and then Cabot tells the judge, you said the child's mental health was hanging in the balance.

We didn't want to traumatize him more by having his dad arrested prematurely.

And then Cheney emotions to exclude anyone who Jill Hoffman told about the abuse, and Cabot is arguing that when she spoke to a DV center staff, she was distraught and it would have counted as an emotional utterance.

But Cheney argues, it violates this fucking asshole's right to confront and cross examine his accuser and it's prejudicial.

And the judge, who clearly hates Cabot and like loves domestic violence, grants the motion like he's just like, it's so insane that you're not you can murder someone, so that you can't use anything that they say have told anybody, because then you don't have a right to confront your accuser because you're accuser is dead because you've killed them.

Like what the fuck is that law?

So anyway, at the precinct, Cabot is like, Okay, well we're fucked.

We have nothing.

Cabot's like, they're just going to argue she was killed in a burglary home invasion.

She was living in a bad neighborhood.

She was working as a stripper, and I do kind of wonder who was watching Tommy during the shifts, Maybe that old lady neighbor.

Anyway, Olivia says, Tommy's testimony will put him away.

I know I can get him to tell me what happened.

And they're like, well, Tommy's been in foster care.

Let's send Olivia to talk to him.

And it's like, no, the judge made an order that no one can talk to Tommy.

And even if Tommy says his dad killed Jill, the statement's going to get thrown out because of the judge's order.

I don't get where is the where is the PsychEval from this guy's psychiatrist?

I mean, I know it's probably going to be filled with lies anyway, but why hasn't it happened yet?

Like, also, I don't think the court would allow somebody's privately hired psychiatrists to be the one doing the evaluation.

No, I feel like it has to be wong.

But I think this is what it's like when you're an abuse fixed like I think they are.

You know, that's kind of the point of the show too.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

So they could subpoena Tommy, but it's a big gamble to put a traumatized child on the stand with like no prep and this, and also his dad might have coached him to say a stranger did it, Like yeah, I'll fucking kill you if you say that I did it, you know.

So what about Kim Hoffman, Tommy's mom, She has rights to talk to him, And Stabler said, well, she either fell into a black hole or he murdered her ass too.

So she's got no activity on her Social Security, no tax returns, no sign of life since she disappeared two years ago or three years ago.

Sorry, So they go to speak to a neighbor and he remembers Kim.

He's like yeah, we would say hi here and there.

But I'm not surprised that you can't find out much about her.

Her husband had her terrified to talk to anyone.

I'd wave to her, she'd check over her shoulder to see if he was looking before she would wave back.

She always had bruises, a broken arm.

He said she ran off with another man.

The neighbor's like, I don't buy that shit for a second.

I think Kaufman killed her, especially after I saw that black van and he said it pulled into the driveway late one night, a shadowy figure filled it with garbage bags and then drove away, and the next day Kim was gone.

He goes, I called the cops and I gave them the license plate.

So now we're back with the Dan Hoffman fan club president, the fucking chief of police, and he's like, Dan Hoffman is not a killer.

But he pulls the file nevertheless, and he's like, we might not be the almighty NYPD, but.

Were so muchtitude, dog, come on, you shut.

The fuck upp.

So then he goes the plates came back to someone named Don Trent.

She was a soccer mom from Portchester who was there delivering girl scout cookies and they're like, can we have the file?

And he's like the cases closed, have at it.

So Benson's like, all right, I'm gonna stall Cabot while Sabler tracks down Dawn Trent.

We're talking to Dawn don Dawn and she is played by Haveland Morris, and I was racking my brain trying to figure out where I recognize her from.

And she is Brooke from that season one episode of Sex and the City.

She's the redhead who's like.

Getting married and it's like such a big deal about like gifts and right right, it's a turtle episode, I think.

And I just remember her so clearly from that episode.

I look, she's got a long resume.

This actress have Alane Morris, but I just didn't recognize many things except this, Yeah, she's an Yeah.

She like tells her like make sure you end up with someone that loves you more than they love them, and that.

Like haunts carry or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're totally right.

Damn.

Yeah.

I also loved that old man neighbor and no one listened to it.

And that's the thing the cops had with bias.

They didn't even do a proper investigation because they already yeah, like assume.

And imagine you're just like you're you're a neighbor and you're just still living next to a guy that you think murdered his wife, Like and he's just walking in and out of the house ever with a new wife, and like we're not checking in with the new wife, like what's going, Like I don't know, but.

Dawn.

They're talking to Dawn and she's like, I don't know Dan Hoffman, and then Stabler jumps immediately to accusing her of accessory to murder, like immediately, and she's like what, Like I don't know this man.

And then they're like, okay, what about Kim Hoffman And she lies and goes, I don't know Kim Hoffman.

But this is an obvious Mariah Carey style lie.

She's like I don't know her.

It's like you do know her, and Stabler's like, babe, cough it up, like we know you were there the night she disappeared, like we know something's up.

And so she finally spills, She's like, I don't know Dan, but I do know Kim and I was there the night that night helping her leave, and Stabler's confused He's like, wait, Kim's alive, and Don's like, yeah, same old story.

Your husband is the nicest guy in town, everyone's pal, especially the cops.

Every night he comes home, he beats you, degrades you, terrorizes you.

And who's gonna believe that the man of the year is a batterer.

There's nowhere to go, and there's nowhere to hide in a small town, and you know, you start, you get a like the only option you have is to get far away and start over.

That takes money and help.

And she's like, it's not just me, it's a group of us.

And Stable goes like some kind of domestic violence underground railroad and she's like, yeah, maybe I guess.

So she's like I was Kim's first stop and then I passed her on to someone else and they're like, what about the kid?

And Don's like, listen, Kim was gonna die, Like we had to move her.

She was coming.

She was hoping to come back for Tommy.

But Don's like, I don't know where she is.

I only know the next link in the chain, and that's all any of us really know.

So we cut to Stabler going through the links right The next lady picked her up and drove her to Poughkeepsie.

Then she was living on a farm New Paulitz, Brewster, And the last woman they talked to says, we got her settled in Torrington and she got working at a dry cleaner's as far as I know, she's still there.

I do want to point out that Torrington, Connecticut to Ride New York is eighty miles.

Okay, it's a ninety minute drive, Max.

You need to go there to get away from this man I feel, but she's close by anyway.

Stabler shows up at the dry cleaner in Torrington and finds Kim working there, and he calls her Kim, and she's like, you have me mistaken for someone else.

I mean, like this is like sleeping with the enemy.

This is like so many movie enough, like all these movies we've seen where it's like, Nope.

That's not me.

And he tells her listen, it's about Tommy.

And then they have a chat in the back room of the dry cleaner and she's like, I cry for Tommy every night.

She's like nobody knew.

He says, like, I know why you left, and she's like yeah, but nobody knew how bad it was.

He used to beat me so badly I couldn't walk.

And then he's like, but you didn't you want to go back for Tommy, and she goes I did.

After I got settled, I went back to Ryde to get him, and I saw him playing on the front in the front yard with this woman and he called her mommy, and he looked so happy.

I thought he's better off and he had everything I couldn't give him.

But it's like, girl, you had to know that he was beating the shit out of that lady too.

But I guess maybe you think it was just me.

Maybe that's like a victim like psychology that your batterer gets into you that like you're the worst woman and I only would beat you or I've never beaten anyone else.

But she's like, they're like, we need you now.

You need to come see Tommy, and she's like, I can't face him.

He won't understand what if he doesn't love me anymore?

And he's like, listen, you got to help Tommy or he goes back to that house and you have to risk your pain to save his life.

So now he cut to the trial.

Hoffman's on the stand talking about how he and Jill met because they worked together.

She was so kind to him after Kim left and after the wedding.

After they got married, he saw that Jill had a terrible temper.

One night, she didn't praise he didn't praise her cooking well enough, and she smashed a meat loaf all over the walls.

Tommy was terrified.

It's like, okay, confirm with Tommy.

This sounds like bullshit.

He realized that she was emotionally unstable and she refused to get help, and he thought with love and support, things would change, but they got worse.

He was worried about Tommy that she would eventually hurt him, and so he told her he wanted a divorce.

The next day, she was gone.

He was relieved until Tommy didn't come home from school and he realized she had taken him.

So now it's Cabot's turn.

And she's like, oh, okay, so you're the victim and he's like yeah.

She's like, well, if you love your son so much, why no missing person's report?

And you know, we go through the same shit.

He said before, I was afraid to talk to the cops.

Jill might do something crazy.

So he's like, so you didn't go look, and he's like, no, I did, and and she's like, well, when your friend told you that her doppelganger was shaking her ass down at Benny's topless, did you go check it out?

And he's like, oh, I just thought that couldn't be true.

Jill was shy.

She wouldn't even fuck with the lights on.

And it's like, so it's a coincidence that you heard about this strip or twin of your wife and then days later she was found brutally murdered.

And he's like, I wish I would have found her so that Tommy would have been safe with me and not watching her get murdered by some maniac.

And Stabler he knows it.

Huh, Yeah, now he knows.

Yeah.

So Stabler is outside court maybe and maybe he's setting that up that the jury would think like this guy would never let his kids sit there and watch a murder happen, but he did.

So Stabler's outside court with Kim.

She looks nervous as hell, but then she sees Tommy walking over with Olivia and it's this is like the sweetest exchange, Like she like goes over to him, kneels sound and goes, do you know who I am?

And she's like, you're my real mom and he's like, I have your picture.

You miss my birthday and she's like, I'm sorry, but I saw your soccer playoffs last year when you scored that big goal.

And he's like lights up.

He's like, you saw that, why didn't you come see me?

And she goes, I was scared and he immediately goes of dad like, you know not he knows and this kid, I wrote, Jesus, has this kid had a psyche val yet or what?

Like?

What is happening?

Like where's the evol like?

And then she goes, yeah, he scares me a lot, and Tommy whispers me too.

It's so heartbreaking, and she goes, I'll never go away again, and he's like, do you promise, and she's like yes, and she's crying and they're hugging.

Next, Cabot calls Tommy to the stand and he walks into the courtroom holding his mom's hand.

Dan looks shook when he sees his you know, his tramp wife who ran off with another man.

And so Dan is like glaring at Tommy while he's on the stand Cabot asks Tommy a few questions, and he is so scared of his daddy, won't take eyes.

I like it when the lawyer stands in between yea to kind of block the view because he's only eyes on his dad.

He's terrified, and then the like you won't speak, and the judge goes, this child is in no state to testify, and Cabot goes, all right and he can go and holds his hand and walks him towards the gallery and the dad leans over and it's almost like it's almost like the episode wouldn't have ended this way if the dad had just fucking not done this.

But he leans over and goes, I love you son with all the warmth of a blizzard.

I mean, it's really not since here at all.

And Tommy nervously looks to his mom and it's like seeing his mom gives him like the strength, and he looks back to his dad and said says, you killed Jill, just like straight up, and she.

You know you got it.

It's like a cute little boy, Yeah, you killed Jill, and but he says it like it's not mumbling.

He says it right like, and then Cheney's like for a mistrial, like immediately physics, Yeah, and the judge calls for order, but again, what did the psychevol where is it?

The judge calls for order, Cabot asked Tommy, are you okay?

And he goes, I'm ready, I can do it now, and he's so brave.

So I think he's.

Gonna get back on the stand and he's gonna fucking say what he just said.

So now Dan Hoffman looks furious as Tommy gets back on the stand, and that's dick wolf baby.

And I did notice as the credits were rolling that there's a woman in the episode named Woman Number one and her name is Kate Middleton, So I don't know what maybe both first Ladies of England have been on USA networks.

I also I like the person playing the mom and I feel like I know her.

I know, and I looked her up and her name is like Signey something, but she's not in anything anyone.

They're Sydney Coleman, she h Like I thought I recognized her from stuff too.

I guess she was in a couple ups of the X Files.

She was on The Young and the Restless for like twelve years or ten years or something.

Well, it's Sydney Coleman and it's an American theoretical physicist.

Wow.

Oh yeah, this woman's Signey and she stopped acting in twenty twelve, so maybe.

It's not an accident that I'm on this Sie physicists page.

Waits, maybe it's meant to be.

Damn, she looks hot.

Okay, see aged amazing?

Who the actress or the hot physicist?

Oh okay, physicist is not sexy.

I just think he died into the seven.

He's a man.

Signy or Google photos sexual.

Yeah, she was great.

I mean, I'm really interested to hear the cases, just because.

I know I'm going to be sad.

But well, and I wonder because we got okay, so basically on the wiki, it's not based on a crime we couldn't figure out, so we kind of made it work, and that doesn't happen often.

I would say, Well, we got in touch with Neil Baert, our guy, Yeah, and he said that it wasn't really based on anything specific.

He said that he had read about this domestic violence underground railroad.

But whenever I was trying to look it up, I found a website that I'm going to use I'm going to share for what would sister peg do.

But like I didn't find specific cases that was just like an organization, like a TV organization, They're not going to like funnel you from place to place a hidie.

So I was and then I feel like we broke we broke open the case.

So we found stuff.

Yeah, so with some research and then I kind of like was looking up things that would fit this and then wildly it all really works together and I'm glad we get to kind of dive into it.

And one is in New York, so you know, we can be more connected.

Even so, this is the case of Charlie Nicholson, and the court case was like Nicholson versus Williams, and it's basically defending parental rights of mothers who are domestic violence victims.

And this went down around nineteen ninety nine.

So Nicholson was a single mother of two young children, Kendall Cole's and Destiny.

And so like Destiny is a baby, Kendall, her son is six years old, and she was in the relationship with the youngest daughter's father, Claude Barnett, but he lived in South Carolina and he would go to Brooklyn monthly to see his child, and then on January twenty seventh, nineteen ninety nine, he decided to beat the shit out of her, and he kicked her, punched her, and threw stuff at her, and her head was bleeding.

So she called nine to one to one and she made arrangements for a neighbor to take her children while she was in the hospital, and then once she found out she had to be there overnight, she gave officers the name of relatives who could care for the children and her absence.

And she said she was quoted like in the Times, that she slept peacefully at King's County Hospital, knowing the neighbors and her cousin.

Had her kids.

So and then the next day instead, the Administration of Child Children's Services ACS, a worker, instead took custody of her children.

They decided that the kids were an imminent risk if they stayed with her, because she couldn't protect herself or them while he was beating her.

And I'm like, did you arrest him?

But okay.

The ACS also.

Filed charges of neglect against her for engaging in acts of domestic violence in the presence of their child.

They also cited that she didn't show up to court once like back in the day, and it was the day of a severe snowstorm.

So it's like they just I have no I mean, I can't even Nicholson says, I didn't know I'd end up down that road and that calling for help would escalate and I'd end up losing my kids.

So now another kind of fear tactic.

Yeah, so women don't reach out because this is going on, this could happen.

It's it reminds me of like always and but it reminds me of like the case of the massage the Margaret Show episode we did, and how like they pretend to care but punish the victims constantly when they're women and the men get to just kind of skirt on, but like you're tougher on this woman who got the ship beat out of her than the person that did it.

Yeah, it's so fucked.

So February fourth, ninety nine, family court ordered that her kids be returned to her, but she was kept on state records as a neglectful parent, and so Nicholson and a bunch of others filed a class action suit against the ACS that it deprived them of their fourteenth Amendment, you know for due process, which I guess is a thing of the past, now, okay, So two thousand and four, So May third, two thousand and four.

The NYCLU, so I just the New York a CILIU chapter joined them, and basically they showed that they had a gender bias that blames abused mothers and that this harms children, and that the acs failed to exercise a minimum degree of care like I can't.

So October twenty six, two thousand and four, the New York Court of Appeals unanimously held that a mother's inability to protect a child from witnessing abuse does not constitute a neglect and therefore cannot be the sole basis for removal.

Only in the rarest instance do you remove a child, and you have to think about the psychological.

Harm on the children.

So New York did agreed to pay more than six hundred thousand dollars to settle with three of the families in the lawsuit.

And that was in two thousand and two, and there was fifteen families total in the class action.

And then a woman from.

Queen's and her four kids got three hundred grand Nicholson and another mar there Shirlene Tillet got one hundred and fifty grand each, and the settlement also had like that the city had to pay the plaintif Sleegal fees and the Charlene Tillet case is fucking insane.

So she was twenty nine and pregnant.

Her baby's father and former boyfriend came over one night and pummeled her.

That's not my words, that's the paper, that's like the New York Times, and not the first time, but it was the last.

And she was like, that's it.

I'm gonna have my baby and I'm gonna move to California.

So she got like everything together to move to California.

So she gave birth to a healthy baby boy in New York and New York at Jamaica Hospital Medical Center.

And usually after you give birth, like social workers and people always ask about DV it's part of the questionnaire, it's the thing, and so she asked, she answered candidly.

Then the baby's father was the one that picked up from the hospital and she goes obviously a grave mistake.

So then the social worker filed a complaint to the state Register on Child Abuse and Neglect and the next day child Welfare came with officers and carried away her two day old son.

Oh my god, I'm gonna be sick, charged her.

With child neglect and it took seven weeks to get her baby back.

Oh my god.

And at the time of this article in two thousand, she was living in a homeless shelter because but like she and then she got in trouble for not having a crib.

She goes, I am moving to California, Like I am moving.

She had a plane take like, she had everything set to go to California two day old.

They thought that would be the best thing for a baby, not arresting a man that hit her.

Oh my god, that's fucking awful.

Like iast all the time because I'm like, we wouldn't know about this.

I didn't even know things like this could happen.

It happens right here in our state.

And it's like, fuck, I can't even fucking fathom taking any day all the way.

Yeah, and they look for excuses like I'm sure even like like they can come in and be quote unquote investigating the DV claim and then be like, oh, you don't have a crib.

It's like okay, Well, then there are agencies that can get her a crib, Like, it's not that's not worthy of taking away a baby for seven weeks a new fucking baby.

No, And there's supposed to be a best set, like you don't even.

Need a fucking gab at that don't No, you don't even need a crib And it's just no.

Unfortunately, with ACS, like with any kind of like child and Family services, there's a lot of personal bias that people will go into homes, and like I had to learn about this when I was a casa where they would like give us.

They would say, like, you walk into a home, you see X, y Z, what are your immediate thoughts And you have to like check your own bias because just because that's not like what your house would look like, that doesn't mean it's an unsafe house for a child.

Like they would say stuff like no rugs on the floor or like a vase within reach of the kids or something like that.

It's like, that's not reason to be And these are just off the top of my head.

There would be other ones, you know, like that's not reason to be removed.

You know, we have, but there's a lot of biases.

Yeah, and then I think about the cases in New York where children died because of necklaces with this department.

So it's like, how are you evil and bad on both sides of the spectrum where you're letting children be in a dog cage starved over months where you should have been there, and then in there you're also dame place you're also taking away two year old children from a domestic violence victim.

Like I don't understand.

I know, like, how are you bad on both spectrum?

Ends is confusing to me.

So Judge Clark v.

Richardson of the Bronx Family Court said the obvious, it's difficult because you're victimizing these people twice and the children.

Everyone.

The New York Times did a big piece on this and they talked to this judge a lot, so it's like, we get it.

If there's DV in the home and the chances of child abuse does go up, and they wrote, you know, unrelated, but especially if there's an unrelated a non relative male in the home, immediately abuse goes up.

That's why I don't trust step dads.

Unfortunately, that's my bias.

That's my bias.

I'm like, are you a pedi?

While if you're a stepdad.

Immediately go are you a pedophile or not?

And I start analyzing you, and it's because of Rosie Prez's episode, and it is what it is.

Like, I'm sorry, the Will are Net.

No, those are separate now, isn't.

HER's the Will Arnett or No?

No, no, you're right, different on different one.

He is, Yeah, they're both Nambler related.

But I get my Nambla episodes mixed up.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, I was.

Just talking to someone who's a fan of s you, but casually, like obviously, but they were talking about how all the athletes never look that good.

It's like always ill fitting oversizes to He's like, the athletes never look that sharp.

And I was looking through and I go, you're right.

But anyways, this is not about fashion.

Okay, we're here.

Oh yeah, unrelated males, not even related to this case.

So like, obviously DV does increase the chance of child abuse, and that seeing abuse does affect children, or even seeing like fighting within the home.

And this all stemmed from thing that I think was trying to be helpful.

In nineteen ninety eight, the state court ruled it declared incidents of DV in the presence of a child to be sufficient grounds of charge of neglect.

But to me, it's like, why don't you help the women leave and arrest the men, Like why with all these rules to take kids away but not punish these motherfuckers.

It is so crazy.

Richardson's like, sure, it's failure.

Richardson's like, damn sure, it's failure to protect children.

But the victim has done nothing wrong or negligent and probably just lack the financial and emotional resources to leave an abusive partner.

And like, do you.

Think this is an incentive?

Like do you think if you say, hey, ladies, like you're gonna lose your kids if you let your husband beat you, so you better get out of there.

Like that's not how it works, Like I know.

But that's what we're we've were learning, especially now with this presidency is the and we know this, but the human traffickers, the pedophiles, and the abusers are in charge of all of it.

They want to punish women, they want to punish brown people.

We are seeing all this this is season four, Like you know what I mean.

So he says, these cases are a daunting exercise and balancing interests and so that's to the Times.

And so they did this pilot program where they placed all these cases under one judge so that this judge, Richardson, could help have uniformity on how these decisions would be made.

So he saw forty or so of these cases, and the majority of them he sent the children back home.

And it's a judgment call on the case workers, like they should be only making the decision if the evidence really shows the child is in imminent danger.

And that's a paraphrase of Nicholas Scapetta, and he's the Commissioner of the Administration.

Of Children's Services.

But I just can't.

I don't know.

It's also bad so and that's to the Times.

But they get it wrong, and that's basically why the class actions do happen.

They get it wrong so much.

And it also, like we keep saying, it keeps victims of DV from taking action because of the threat of their children being taken away.

And yes, it is hard for children to watch abuse, but it's also hard when they're suddenly taken from their parents' care, like what the fuck?

And again, none of their solutions make it easier to prosecute domestic violence people or trust women or put away abusers, but cops feed their wives, so it doesn't fucking matter.

Like I don't know what to.

Say, Like, I don't know why all of the effort is it to be harsher on.

I'm a criminal?

Yeah, what about a three strikes you're out fucking rule for DV you know, like why are we not doing that?

No?

Do that for when we do that for like turnstile jumping, don't wait like or they're like their husband.

But it's also we blame the victim.

It's always why didn't she leave or why didn't she do that?

Or well she didn't want to press charges, and then they're like mad at those people.

It's also very strange.

It's so strange.

Yeah, somebody has any empathy or compassion or can put theirselves in anyone else's fucking shoes for two seconds and consider what it might be like for them.

Not nobody, but a lot of people, and most people that you know all the like, there's these fucking people right now with what's happening with the with snap and everything, and people are just like get a jaw.

It's like you have no idea what's going on in people's lives.

It's fucking crazy.

Like some people don't have legs.

I don't know.

Yeah, they can't have they can't have people and the control.

Over rural you live in some rural ass town in Kentucky.

Like I heard of some town in Kentucky that's like a ninety eight percent of them are on snap.

There's nothing, there's no work there, Like you know, you don't what job do you want everyone to go get?

Like yeah, And then it's even more sick where it's like they shouldn't get to shop, they should get a box of food and eat rice and me and what we give you and and it's like.

You are sick, you are sick.

It's such a small amount of money.

It's such a small amount of money out of taxpayers pockets.

It's such a small amount of money that we give people, and they ca.

The fucking puritanical nature of the early settlers.

Oh God, Okay.

So Fay did pass away in August of twenty twenty four, So rest in peace.

So she was.

A Georgia woman who ran an underground network out of her Atlanta home to help high children who had been abused.

Somethink hero, something kidnapper and vigilante the network did not take children without a guardian's involvement.

And that's what she said to the Detroit Free Press in twenty eleven.

So it's not like so it's not kidnapped, there's a parent.

Well, you know, this is a very debated woman, I will say.

So these plans took months, and the kids would get new names forged id papers, all of this.

And the reason she got into this was she was married to a man that the courts did not believe abused their daughter.

And then years later he.

Was on the FBI most Wanted list as a sexual predator and he ended up getting a multiple guilty verdicts for being a pedophile, and the courts just didn't listen even though her four year old had gone a rhea.

Oh my god, this man was considered the first pedophile to be added to the top ten most wanted list.

He is dead now And if the authorities listened to her, maybe multiple children could have.

Not been molested.

So thank you so much, Jesus.

And then her daughter was sent to a mental hospital and she could not get her daughter back, no amount of appeals.

And then she like married this Atlanta doctor Howard Yaeger and that's what like sparks her right.

She was feeling ignored.

By the authorities, and that led her to be an advocate for abused children who are being ignored.

So began in nineteen eighty seven My Year of Birth and Jaeger read about a Mississippi case involving a woman, Karen Newsom, who lost custody of her two kids after she accused her husband of sexually abusing them, and Yager started getting a lot.

Of media attention.

In the late eighties, she did Heraldo Sally Jesse, Raphael Oprah.

She was doing the circuit, the Circuit Honey, and it was called the Children of the Underground Network.

And the network was made of people from domestic miland shelters, women's groups, former nuns.

And this is from an A like A and E from any report on this from Newsweek article from twenty sixteen.

The problem with the network is they are defying the courts, so that is a thing.

They're usually helping non custodial parents, which are mostly mothers.

And we've talked about PERI, We've talked about the biases in courts and parent alienation syndrome and all of that, and how abusers get custody of children, even when mothers plead and then thirty Yeah it sucks.

So so it's you know, they're working with non custodial parents.

And she claimed to have helped over like a thousand children over the years.

It was a network about two hundred women.

A lot of them were abused as children or you know, they had abused children, and they shelter the victims in their homes as they post for as relatives for several weeks, and then they continue hostly, we're moving from shelters, and then they would limit the stays at each place for two to three days because local police officials like would regularly go to the shelters to look for missing people, which I didn't know, but I guess yeh, like, if someone's in the shelter, they're hiding, so why are you in there looking, especially when they have such high rates of DV in the police departments.

But also.

I don't know, I don't love it, but they had a plan.

So and they would give people the new birth certificate and driver's licenses, which again illegal.

They stole names from birth certificates of dead people.

There was a lot of you know, greyhounds train stations, wigs, pillows, and but on nineteen ninety two, she was put on trial, you know, like she has a kidnapper, but she's helping where the justice system fails.

So her defense lawyer is like, hey, if it wasn't for her, like, what would have happened to all these kids.

His name is Robert Ferrier, her attorney, and like he brought up you know, she's a mother of an abused child, and the courts returned the child to her abuser, Like I yeah, I've really it sickens me.

He maintained that she was being tried for being a thorn in the side of local officials.

I'm sure she was annoying to be around, you know, and it is confirmed later she had a tough personality.

Yeah, but it's okay.

So she was charged with cruelty to children, kidnapping, an interference with custody, and the charges stem from a case with two Florida children who were brought to her in April of nineteen ninety by their mother, saying she was fleeing an abusive husband.

But there are tapes of Yaeger like yelling at the kids and pushing them to remember more about the abuse and the boy is like begging for his mom and doesn't like the interrogation.

So that was like a, you know, not good evidence towards her, but since a parent knew it was happening, you couldn't say it was like kidnap.

I don't know.

The possible sentence for this was sixty years.

But she was acquitted May of nineteen ninety two.

The jury deliberated for less than three hours after a four week trial that included fifty five witnesses, So kind of a I mean I liked that she was acquitted, Oh the buck and so, but like tons of millionaires ended up mad at her too, like this ended up being her demise kind of but she's back and strong, but I mean dead, But we'll get to it.

So there was a guy Bippin' show and he ended up being on the cover of Time magazine in May nineteen ninety eight, offering a two million dollar reward for the return of his two young children, and he did end up finding them at his wife's home in Switzerland and brought them back to the US, but he did a one hundred million dollar lawsuit against her in nineteen ninety nine, so.

Tough tough time.

Oh, because she helped get them to Switzerland, got it.

Yeah.

And another group I found in my research for the New York Times article in nineteen eighty eight talked about another group, the Mother's Against Raping Children a really direct name.

Oh my god.

Yeah, and Lydia Rayner and Yager would offer shelter to women and children and she routed them through private homes in several states in Canada.

And she said she gets at least two calls a day from desperate women needing help.

And Yeager was a member of this group and worked with them, and they did less illegal stuff though they mostly helped with money, makeup, hair styles like changing the appearance of people, which is a temporary solution, but they worked inside the laws more so Yager helped found it.

But with these two women.

Sarah King and this woman her last name is Gooch, and I don't really know how to be calmer about it.

And then I also wrote that her name is denied, but it must be Denise, Yeah, it must be.

It can't be denied Gooch.

I think it's Denise Gooch.

And Sarah Kanks she yet sorry.

They asked her to leave the group.

They said she was just too much.

She was exaggerating numbers, and they didn't want to focus on the underground railroad but wanted to focus on her to make the system better.

They said she had a rough personality, they liked her message, by a woman who worked with her said the personality hurt their message, so she had to go.

And the woman Amy Nustein, who said that as a sociologist, and she wrote a book from Madness to Mutiny While Mothers are running from the family Courts and what can be Done with it?

Long title.

She added that Fay wanted to publicize how desperate people were and how the system is failing, like they had no choice but to run.

So she was also trying to make people aware like the system sucks, but we can work within it and help you.

And that's according to Newsweek.

She also made clear to Newsweek that yeah, you're only took cases that involved documented abuse, so abusive.

Documented, no hearsay.

The DA from Cobb County that's her in the early nineties said someone with good intentions who nevertheless had become obsessed.

And that's LA's time was via AATV and then the Mark Group, you know, others against raping children helped.

Women who led law abiding.

Lives kind of like live as fugitives honestly, Like they had to help women mask their identities only use cash.

And that's the thing when they're like why don't you leave?

Why don't you leave?

And it's like, okay, what does what do these women's lives look like outside of it?

And then one of the solutions is like they should have their own money and jobs.

And it's like the.

People that are pretending to care about women, it's like they want them in the home and dependent on men so they can't escape.

Yeah, and yet why didn't you leave?

Why didn't you leave?

And it's like, well now she can only use cash.

She can't use his IDs, no credit card, no nothing, like you're true.

And then not everybody has like their parents to fall back on, or a wealthy aunt or like whatever, you know what I mean, Like some of these people have no family, nowhere to go.

And that's my.

Design too, because usually as of people isolate you, so it's really fucked up.

And then oftentimes the kids don't go to school or the doctor dentist or get proper nututrician or anything like that because they're on the run.

So you know, critics say that makes things worse, but I don't know what's worse than you know, being like raped by your father.

So some lawyers are like, well, if you go underground and may underscore a husband's charge that a mother is vindictive, and then it diminishes her chances of winning custody.

But the only reason she's running is because you've already fucked her up.

Like, why does an abuse and rape seem more vindictive than trying to go undercover and deny parental rights to an abuser.

It's fucking crazy.

And you know, obviously they're like, but going underground fucks them up.

It's like they're being abused.

And then one child psychologist at Harvard, doctor Carolyn Neuberger, said sexual abuse erodes a child's sense of identity and control.

Whisking a child into the underground only further traumatizes the child.

And that's to the times.

And then also just a fact is like only one to six percent of child abuse claims are fabricated, and that's from a cheat sheet from the Center of the Center for Judicial Excellence.

Yeah, I'm sorry, Like I get it's traumatizing to move from place to place and maybe like have a little some food insecurity, But I agree, it's better than being routinely assaulted by your own parent.

Yeah, so Nick Nick National Center for Missing and Exploited Children are like, listen, you can't break the lawn, kidnap and interfere with the process, no matter your good intentions.

But in twenty sixteen, Newsweek reported that she still was.

Running a fourteen room bed and breakfast with her husband in North Carolina, and she was tracked down thereafter not being in the spotlight by the Minnesota Star Tribune.

Casey, I don't know if you're familiar with them, and so at sixty and she was at six, she was sixty eight years old, and she's talking to news Week in twenty sixteen, she goes, oh, I retired from the public eye, but I've never given up, and my network's as busy as ever.

And I just, yeah, attention and media is what cost me a lot, But I would never like give up my ability to help children and the way I want to help them.

So go fuck yourselves.

And she said she's helped over seven thousand people, but it has been just quiet and working.

And twenty twenty two, the FX network created a five episode TV mini series about fay Acre called Children of the Underground.

In twenty twenty two.

I feel like I know everything that comes out on e F Facts.

We should watch that, I know.

I like it's a creoticy.

I mean it is true though, like if something like this is going to exist, like you can't get pressed, like you can't, you know, like you can't.

It has to be like a whisper network, like people just passing your name from place to place and like never anyone knowing like who's in charge.

But I'm glad she was still at it until she died last year.

Hopefully she passed it on to somebody.

Yeah.

Fuck, that's so crazy, it's really.

Anyway, thank you for that that dark dark uh.

And is watching the episode and you're like all these like holes and it's like, no, it's.

Honestly like it could have been worse.

Yeah, it's like so final crazy, Oh bias.

Well, we have a great guest, so don't anybody go anywhere.

Our guest today is nineties television Royalty, A huge part of my youth.

He portrayed Christopher Lorenzo in the show's Silk Stockings, then later was Kyle McBride on melrose Place, but you know him today as the psycho with a smile.

Dan Hoffman, please enjoy our combo with the lovely Rob Estes.

Hi, Rob, how are you good?

It's so nice to meet you.

We've still been waiting for this moment for a long time, waiting all my life.

We're I mean, you don't understand.

I was a huge Like, I was such a melrose Place person, Like, oh, right off.

When I saw you in this as View episode Younger, I was like, not Kyle, although, wait, isn't it just to really quickly go to melrose before we get into SVU, Like how do they have you playing one guy on seasons one and two and then they bring you back as a totally different guy.

I mean they do that on SVU all the time, but it's a different kind of show.

I was only I think I was on two episodes, okay, season and Aaron.

I did a pilot for Aaron Spelling with Adrian Brody, Heather Graham, Leon, myself, Clarence Williams was a great pilot and it didn't get picked up.

And Aaron Spelling, He's like, I mean it was long story.

Somebody really biffed it.

But Aaron called one night and he.

Said, hey, uh, Bob, and we're not going to pick this up, but you want to come do Melrose for me?

And I said, okay, but same character, no, no, no, completely different character said I've never done this before, what I'm gonna do it?

And I said, okay.

So that's the story of how that happens.

And it's funny because like, there wasn't social media then, so it's not like everybody could be like, wait, isn't that Sam like or whatever?

You know, like nowadays if you do that kind of thing and people go nuts.

But yeah, you get.

Rich troll you could I think you could do it unless they I guess you could if you spun it correctly, but I don't know how you'd spin that so that people kind of bought it.

Yeah, so when you do come on to Melrose Place, you're married to Lisa Renna.

I was to Lisa Ena correct.

That's why the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or.

I actually avoid that at all costs, understand, But I have to say Lisa is awesome, she's great, She's she's a nutbag, right, No, No, I mean she knows she's a nutbag.

Yeah, she's the most honest, morally sound.

I would put her in my top ten.

She's really awesome.

We love her.

Wow.

I think her honesty is what gets her in trouble on the show.

That's for sure.

I think you're right.

But it's also why people love her.

Yeah.

Why she's such you know, a hit in the in the social media realm.

She's never been on SVU.

She would be so good.

She would be great.

Yeah, like a kind of evil mom that's up to no good.

Yeah, I want to see her on sv.

Or maybe she's the one that you're sure didn't but she didn't do it.

Ah, Yes, yeah, she's protecting someone.

We've had your old co star Kathy Griffin from when you were on Suddenly Susan, We've had her on the podcast.

Yeah.

I love Kathy's wild.

Yeah, she's a funny lady.

But you were mentioning this thing where you're a murderer.

I guess because like when I met your character of Kyle on Melrose, you were always like kind of you were pretty much like a nice guy.

You were like cheating on your wife and doing some cheating.

You weren't like murdering yeah, you weren't like murderous and so I remember watching you in this SBU and being like, oh wait, but he's like a nice guy.

But then you get cast sometimes to play these total psychos.

How much of your career would you say that you've been like nice Scott or like the dad on nine O two and oh or whatever the reboot of nine O two and oh, Like nice guys versus like handsome psychopaths.

I think it depends.

I think probably in TV and film, I've been a third of my characters are bad guys, and then in theater I tend to do more of the bad guys.

Okay, the extremities I did up in Seattle.

I did this guy Solioni who ends up killing one of the leads in Chekhov's Three Sisters Fool for Love in Scotland I did and that was pretty intense, you know, sleeping with my sister and yeah, bad things, but it's it's I really enjoy it.

I think I think almost every actor would rather be a bad guy because it gives you freedoms.

You don't have the social norms, you don't have to be anything other than what the moment demands, and it's really fun to.

Be that as a theater kid.

Oh no, god, no, no.

I was an athlete.

Well, so I went to Santa Monica High School.

So the theater geeks at my school were Sean Penn, Charlie c She, Emilio Estevez so and it was funny because they were always on buses making movies and they had squibs, and all their dads were producers and and pretty heavy directors and actors.

So they just it was that was nuts.

And so I looked at them and I was like, oh, that's not my jam.

And then I became a stuntman, and then.

And the stuntman to acting.

Pipeline, Yeah it's a thick pipe.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Sunts were cool.

But it's it's really especially now it's a tough gig.

Change.

I think what's changed If you don't have a specialty, If you can't jump a motorcycle three hundred feet in the air, that cuts you out for that.

If you can't, if you're not an MMA fire or so, they're just there.

There are X game levels of everything, so it's different.

It used to be you know, you did it all, You fell off horses, you got hit by cars, you got to set off fire, you were really good at fighting, and you could make a living with all of those.

And now I think across the board in our life, like things are just shrunk and you have to have an absolute ten at one thing and you can go.

Yeah.

Also, also I feel like not a lot of longevity, and like in the field you get like injured or you get older.

But I think I think the stunts ultimately you have those years where and it is it's really safe.

It's interesting.

You spend most of your time keeping yourself and people really safe, but you end up coordinating stunts, so you might not be doing that.

Oh got it.

So then you become like the coach essentially, you.

Guys want a stable of people that you used for this.

You got a guy who looks just like Tom Cruise.

So and actually those are the guys that end up being the coordinators of the guys that have attached themselves to big stars.

Yeah.

Wow, I like seeing the photos of step Doubles and their people together.

I had a guy named Nut for a show that I did for twelve years.

No that's not true, six years, and it was we we just we went up the path together for a really long time, and then he was like, dude, I got I'm doing all these other things.

And I was like, good for you.

So it's cool if you have good people, and he was really exceptional.

Well you also in this episode Sandra Bernhardser lawyer that fun is was that fun.

Well, you know, she had such a a reputation of I mean before I ever got there.

So I got this episode because Neil Bear.

We knew it.

We knew it, we reached out to So I reached out to Neil.

He's done our podcast twice, so I reached out to him and I said, oh, we're doing this desperate as this episode desperate.

We're going to have Rob estays on.

But I wanted to ask him a question about the episode.

And he goes, I love Rob.

Tell him.

I say, hi, So this is a hello from Neil Bear to you.

I love he What a good guy.

Yeah, we mean the fact that on er, the fact that he's a doctor right doing his rounds and he's also writing what happens in the day to him in his practice.

He's writing er and he does that and he becomes the executs, the producer, and then he's funny because you've got time for a side story.

Yeah.

Yeah, So George Clooney.

George Clooney added absolute apex for er Neil Bear had hired me to do a pilot called Outreach and it was about a kind of like like a George Hooney type doctor who's living in Venice and he's down on his luck.

And uh it was it was me and it was me and Mickna.

When I'm looking at the IMDb for it, yeah.

So but it didn't get picked up.

And but the day I got cast and he was like, hey, I want you to come.

I want you to come sit come watch the r I want you this is gonna happen, Like this new show is going to be this, So let's go watch.

I'm sitting there watching and we go to lunch at the cafeteria and George Clooney is sitting there and he's in his talks.

I think it's the episode.

I think it's one of those episodes where he's like in the talks and he saves the day or whatever.

Yeah, we sit down and we just start talking and he was so cool and then he's like, hey, come play basketball out at lunch.

And I was like, okay, but what an amazing dude.

But anyway, the show didn't get picked up, and Neil said, hey, about three years later, he said, I'm doing this this show the SPU.

When you come to an episode, you get to be a bad guy.

And I was like, yeah, I would love to.

I knew it was an offer.

I knew you did an audition for this, like you're so perfect in it, and yeah, it's so good, so scary go back to Sandra Bernhard.

Everybody like, you know, I was in an acting class and they were like, hey, Sandra's supposed to be really tough to work with, and you know, if she can get under your skin, you're in trouble.

And I'm like, really, shit, Okay, I don't know what to expect.

She could not have been cooler.

Yeah, and she's it was great.

She knew what she wanted and totally like you know, just back and forth and she was great.

So you know, you can talk, you can talk a lot of shit.

Yeah.

I know that you shot this like literally twenty three years ago or something, but do you have any like do you remember doing this like scene with Marishka where you're like you didn't have a badge and a gun, you wouldn't be talking to me like this like you were kind of that's like, that's like sort of where you face crack a little bit and we see that you're not this father of the Year guy that you're trying to like show everybody that you are.

Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

I remember.

It was really cool and they were cool.

They're a good tea.

I think that's why that show's done so well.

Yeah, and they were hilarious, like I can't what's his.

Name, sorry, Christopher Maloney, Kristph.

Yeah, Chris was like, hey, you do that Silk Stocking show.

You did that Silk Stocking show.

I love that fuck the show.

I was like, yeah, I did, I did that show.

He's like, yeah, it was great.

It's just like you know, it's kind of like what we do here.

It's like a you know, a male female cop team.

I'm like, yeah, but you guys did really well.

But he was cool.

They were both great.

Yeah, Silk Stockings was like a lot used it.

One hundred episodes of that that's was on for That used to be on the USA Network when I was a kid, before the Law and Order SPU became the only thing that's on the USA network.

And it was it was I think I think Silk had been dead for two years.

And interestingly enough, Stephen Cannell who produced Silk Stockings.

He he also did twenty one Jump Street book Er.

He did so many shows and CBS was going to put our show on prime time and weeks before it happened, Segansky changed his mind.

He's like, he said to Candle, you know what a cable show.

If I bring a cable show onto my network, it makes me look like my network isn't great.

And we were like, you're like what, and he said, yeah, I can't do it.

If this was if this was a show on a different network, maybe, but I can't do it.

And it was funny because now it's the opposite, you know, And he had a chance to break complete, right, he just kind of I get it, Dough.

I get the temperature was a little different back then and cable was a weaker thing, but man, it would have blown up.

He would have killed it.

Yeah, it's like one of those shows that's like now if it's on cable and it goes to Netflix.

Now everybody's like rediscovering like suits or something, you know.

Yeah, and you could have toned it down.

I Mean one of the reasons SO did well as a late night was it crimetime after Primetime?

I think was the Moniker.

It did well because we pushed envelopes.

Now every show push is envelope.

Yeah, it was just I think it was just bear too ahead of the time.

I think had we been on Fox, Fox, who've done it because they were already realizing that pushing an envelope is what.

Yeah, they were doing all that nypdlu stuff.

Yeah, Hardian says were getting smarter than were used to seeing, you know, kind of a little frisky your life a little more fire.

Yeah.

When they showed Dennis Franz's butt on NYPD Blue and fell, it was like a watershed moment in television.

How good was that show?

I mean that was that?

Like you that was the thing, Like everybody was always talking about the thing that happened on NYPD Blue that you had never seen on you know, network TV before.

Yeah.

So and SVU now does stuff that I'm like, I can't believe this isn't on HBO.

I mean like they some of this stuff is like really graphic, like really and you're like, you know, but you're right, like your show was pushing it before they were pushing it.

Nope, So do you remember kind of no, you know, how do you play a person you know as a psycho evil but does have this good guy I persona to everybody but these detectives or you play it like you think you're the good guy.

Yeah, you I mean, I think I think the majority of people who do bad things think that they are good guys.

Yeah.

I mean you're lying because you have to to help.

I mean there's probably a partner's head that that if he was convicted for this murder, his son was going to have a really bad life and I wouldn't be around for him.

And yeah, but you're just everything.

Yeah, when you play everything's.

Okay, it comp right, they can and then I think it's it's when you know, these guys are put in a situation that they cannot talk their way out of, or buy their way out of, or manipulate their way out of, then then it changes.

Yeah, because he was the King of Rye, the King.

Do you want to talk about your upcoming projects?

Yeah, I would love to the stars.

It's with Andy Garcia, Alec Pettifer.

Oh yes, cast shot at in Puglia, Italy for a month and a half, which was super fun.

He was very enjoyable.

And it's just about a young writer who has lost his art.

He's lost his way and he's I play his agent.

That's just you know that, who cares if you've lost your way?

Make me money, just write something.

It's not about art.

It's about let's go, let's publish.

I need I need money.

But good things happened to him and uh Andy Garcia is hilarious.

Oh my god.

I was like, he came up with a couple of things that were so good and I'll you know, if he had his son come and be with him in Italy for uh I think a couple of weeks of filming and they had they just seem to have like the coolest relationship because it's like an old kid.

He's like twenty something and you know, Andy had him in one of the scenes and directed him.

It was it was really cool.

We had a good time filming it.

That's amazing.

You got to go to Italy.

I got hey, I got to go to Italy.

Yeah, I got to go to Italy.

Where where is this movie?

Is this going to have theatrical or is it going to be streaming?

Yes, so it's going to be on Netflix.

Oh great, and I believe it comes out November seventeenth.

Awesome.

Perfect.

Yeah, it's it's cool, it's it's it's it's family, it's it's about love and what's important, which I think is a good topic for these days.

Yeah, this episode comes out the next day, so you guys can all go watch under the Stars.

Now.

Wait, but you also just did a movie called The Italians kind of a theme the theme happening I did.

That was fun.

That was that was a low budget what I say, pet project or I just I love the character.

Uh.

Sometimes you get a script and you read it, you go, I might not be right for this, but I don't care.

This is this is gonna.

I know exactly what I want to do with this.

Yeah.

And one of those, and it was just it was a labor of love and it was a lot of blast with it.

Just ripped it out in like twenty eight days of of fun.

Wait, well then I'm like, what's the character?

So I play an Italian husband who may have cheated on his wife.

It's still love it.

But he may not have Okay, I love that.

It was a little bit up in the up in the air, but you know, Abigail Breslin.

In it, she's in an s vu as a really little girl, like a long time ago.

It's one of the best ones.

She did a scene in Times and I was like, I mean she took something that was just okay and she made it so good.

Yeah, and no Wonder You're who you are?

That was brilliant.

So what are these movies that are like you're always playing the same person, like After Everything, After Ever, Happy, After We Fell, After We Collided?

What are those?

That is a series of books written by Anatod with Hero Fine uh oh in Joseph Fine Landford Langford and so it was huge.

It was like I think there were seven books.

I was in five of the films and it was just like young angsty love and What Things Caught.

You sort of like soapy movies kind of totally but teen drama, okay, really pushing it, like pushing the envelope.

One of the Sprouses is in one of them.

He's like, yes, famous, yeah.

You know he and hero are are became good friends.

And then Beautiful Wedding that Dylan's in he's the star of those two that kind of came off.

One of the producers of After went and then did Beautiful Wedding and we're directors as well.

Wait, so when you go do these movies, is it are these like in Vancouver or you guys go to like Cool Islands or where are you doing these?

Uh?

The team these teen movies.

Uh, Beautiful Wedding was in Dominican Republic and then the After series one was in Atlanta and the other were during COVID.

Oh, during COVID in Bulgaria.

So we all we got the top two floors of this high rise and we all got tested three times a day, and ultimately we all got COVID because one person I've got the knight that Biden got kind of sworn in.

We had a party and it happened to be Hero's birthday and we've all been quarantined for so.

You're like, how could we have it?

Yeah, he was wrong.

Sad You're already wearing a mask and you're getting tested at the times and nobody's got it.

But I remember that night is Hero's birthday.

We had a party and we'll look like we're playing games and it's pretty on cast and remember looking over at one point and we were drinking looking over and I'm like, all these twenty two to twenty six year olds were kind of tackling each other on the floor.

I just remember growing myself.

Wow, that's that's like a COVID cocktail right there.

The next morning, the lead actress tested positive.

By the end of the day, three other people and then I didn't get it until eleven days later, but we were all quarantee, like we had to stop filming.

Oh my god, I think it's tri but it was fun.

And then you're just in Bulgaria for a week in a hotel trying to get better.

Oh my god, it was fourteen days.

I was in food in, food out for fourteen days.

Oh my god.

Stuff.

Yeah, what a time.

I feel like, unless you have any last minute memories of SVU that are popping into your mind that you want to give.

Our listeners, we'll let you get on with your day.

If you happen to talk to Neil Beer again, tell him that I send.

My best I will message him right now and tell him for sure we're obsessed with him.

But you are one of the classic SVU villains that have stood the test of time.

I mean, we're they're on season twenty seven, and you're still so very memorable.

That someone had to go through an underground railroad to escape you.

I mean it's like, that's really diabolic.

I get chills in that scene every time I watch.

It, Like, I, I.

Really love this episode, so thank you for doing this.

He was handsome, he was fun.

It was a thrill.

I would be a thrill.

What a lovely guy.

And I was like, if I could have told like twelve year old Cara that she was going to be talking to Kyle on a podcast, she would have said, what's a podcast?

You know?

So yeah, tell us if you want to be the Tommies.

I also do really like the idea of dumpster sluts, but I understand, wasn't that what it was?

Trash slut?

It was it was dumpster dumpster slut.

Maybe yeah, I think, no, Tommy, if you guys tell us, tell us, tell us if you guys want to be the Tommies.

I kind of love the TMU Tommies.

I think that that's fun.

But wigh, And maybe we'll do a poll when this episode comes out and see if you guys want us to be people have been sending in more suggestions, but to me, the Tommies are kind of it.

I hope they love it.

We'll see what they feel.

Oh.

Also, I don't know that no show as a hold on me like this one.

But anytime a new season of Selling Sunset drops, my day is done and I watch it all in one day.

Wow.

I've never seen it enough in it selling, so I can't get enough, and I have the reunion waiting for me.

I feel like Salt Lake City.

I'm back in, I'm I'm back in, I'm in.

But Selling Sunset takes over my life for a day.

Every time I can't not watch, I don't.

I don't split it into two days ever.

Wow, it's like a must watch, must binge get it all in.

I never have seen it for a second.

I don't think you would like it.

I think you'd be really not into it.

Really.

Yeah, it's just like I don't think you'd like the houses.

I don't think you'd like the outfits.

I don't know.

Maybe.

Well, now now I feel like it's reverse psychology.

And now you're like, oh, you don't think I like it, I'm gonna fucking watch it.

Yeah, now I'm gonna watch it and fe No, I mean I got you know, I have, like I liked Kroshelle on The Traders.

She's on that, Oh yeah she is, and she doesn't give a fuck, like she lets people have it.

But there was one person she went below thet She just said something crazy and they had to kick her off the show.

But she will not take accountability.

And she straight up goes, Krishelle, maybe you're projecting because of your you know, drug addict parents and they both had just died, and so everyone's like, you.

Have to leave.

Wait, someone Chrishelle said that too.

Someone said that to Chroshelle and had to leave.

Yeah, she's just like not good on television.

This other woman whoa what.

Was her name?

Nicole?

Oh yeah, and one of Nick Cannon's baby mama was on it too, one of the many.

Okay, all right, wow, I don't know.

Yeah, my mom said she watched it.

No, no, that was the different one.

That was the one on a Bravo one.

She was watching a Bravo what's the one with the boat with the men the Oppenheim.

Yes, Oppenheimer is selling Sunset and it is on Netflix.

But what about a million dollar, million dollar listing.

I think my mom watched Out on a plane once and she said it was so hilarious.

She thought it was a joke.

The whole thing she doesn't understand anyway.

The post mortem on this show, this episode is women are really organized and can do great things.

Uh, and that men are terrifying, Right, I guess that's the bottom line.

Really scary episode.

I hold on to it forever, just like the trickery of it all and the acceptance of like, yeah, he's a great guy.

Yeah the bitch ran off.

It's like what the whole town is just under his like baby blue spell, baby blue Eyes spell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I always think of this episode when people are like, why didn't you just leave?

You should have just called on and you should just leave, you know.

It's like.

Don't.

Yeah, It's it's really crazy the way humanity, like like why are you even blaming this person who didn't leave when this person's beating them?

Like I just don't even get the like the conversation.

But you know, I'm pretty hardcore.

Yeah, they have hardcore, And I mean the cases I mean we're talking about hard to leave.

I mean, to take a two day old baby, to take a two day old baby.

Think that's what's good for the baby, because this dude hit her Like fuck, I can't.

I really don't understand the world.

I know.

I just don't know you could.

Do that neglect or neglect they want to get out, give the more care, help people leave, I believe.

But I also love that with Fay.

Everyone's like her personality was terrible and we did have to uh do a separate group.

She did help kids, but boy was she a pill?

Was she a bitch?

Yeah?

All right, yeah, why do women have to be likable?

Go fuck yourself?

I mean it was also like how bad was her personality or was she just pushy?

It's like the way everybody's always like Rosie O'Donnell was a bitch on her show, Katie Kirk was a bitch on her show.

Meredith Vieira was a bitch on her show.

It's like, or were they or were they just the Boston You didn't like that Rosie.

I wonder when she'll get the like kudos that she deserves.

Yeah for being right about everything decades ahead of time, truly, you.

Know, just I feel sad that she left America that she's in like Ireland now, well.

The president bullies her, so I know she has to leave.

I know it makes me sad because I'm like, you should shouldn't have to relocate countries because of our bully ass president.

But did you read this teen Vogue?

It's is it Vogue?

It's oh my god.

Honestly teen Vogue fired everyone their politics team.

I mean the fact that Barry Wei's this dumb bitch at CEBIA.

Every black person's fired.

They only kept white people.

It's like, I can't it's it's so sickening.

It's so sickening it's happening, and I wonder and people still seem to be in denial.

I don't think our listeners.

But yeah, but the reason I was shocking it was but it was you know what I mean, It's like that's that's the whole.

Point, Like, yeah, what's truly shocking anyone anymore?

It's Oh, they don't want they don't want it, and we all need to just be doing hobbies, you know, because the internet technology is about you know, we'll not we're not gonna have electricity soon.

You guys got to get beads, you gotta get hobbies.

You got to get my bunker ready, and I only have like forty dollars cash on me at any given time.

I'm fucked, plus my glasses.

I need to get Lasick before the apocalypse.

I know, but people people don't love lace, I mean Lasik.

I know.

Wait, what's the documentary?

Is it out?

I want to watch the Lasik documentary.

There's a Lasick documentary.

Yeah, there's They go if people the Bleeding Edge.

Oh it's from twenty eighteen.

Oh broken eyes.

Saw some of them posts this thing where she says I got lasick.

It worked amazing.

I have eye pain every single day, every day.

My eyes ache.

Yeah, I was like, that sounds awful.

Dark underbelly of billion dollar industry.

They basically say like if people knew the percentage of people where it's not good, it would net people would.

Never do it.

Oh fuck, okay, well for me, but the end of the world, you can't really have glasses either.

I know what am I gonna do?

I have three pairs, but my kids will break them if I get's like the fake teeth like people getting veneers.

I'm like, honey, what if you don't have ten grand in a little bit you're getting you're gonna.

Have those sharp little pointy guys coming out.

It's fucked, it's fussy.

They were cooked, as the youth said, I don't even know where you say that.

Rose.

He keeps saying that, Oh that's really that you're cooked, and I'm like, oh my god, Rosie.

Sus cooked everything.

That's so fucking cute.

Listen, we all have to help each other.

And if you see someone that's going through domestic violence, slip the guy's throat statut of jail.

Oh, I hope your abuser dies.

Yeah, And I don't know.

What I'm doing with my life, but I've been watching YouTube like the Most Dangerous Woman in Prison, and it's like about women that kill, and thirty to forty percent of women in prison killed like an abuser.

Yeah, I don't think any of them should be in prison.

No, But then they have to go like, oh there was a blood spot, but basically like, yeah, women stabs one three hundred times.

But I've just been watching interviews and of women in prison and they're just so sad.

Oh it's not like the cell bloc tango.

I'm telling you no.

And then he ran into my knife.

He ran into my knife twelve times.

I don't even remember how many times it is.

But yeah, but one woman, I don't I think it was DV.

I don't know.

I don't think she should have gotten what she got.

But the way she got caught was they have like a secret camera where they put her with her grandma and she was like talking to her grandma, and her grandma kept going stop talking.

And then it's like Miranda rights, but only if you're under arrest, so like, if you're not under arrest, they don't have to read you your Miranda rights and they can film you, so like you can't.

You shouldn't if you're arrested, you shouldn't say anything anywhere in the precinct to anyone.

Yeah, hopefully don't commit a crime, don't murder, do that.

And a lot of them are mothers and like, and then they have like there's like a mother's wing on one of the prisons, and when they go to visiting day they have to have a guard with them to protect the kids because you're allowed to have kids.

I don't know, it's just.

It.

I don't know why I've been watching it, but I've been watching just Women in Prison on YouTube.

Yeah, yeah, that's it's scary sounds secary and sad.

Yeah, I don't know why I'm doing it.

I should stick a selling Sunset and Salt Lake City Housewives.

Okay, I think that's a perfect segue though into our what would Say Peg do this week?

Or what would Sister Peg Do?

Is our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization, a book, a movie, something to give you more information on what we talked about today and this week, we wanted to point you to Underground Railroad, Inc.

Which is a provider of emergency shelter and services for victims and survivors of intimate partner violence that operates out of Saginaw, Michigan.

They provide services for survivors of domestic violence, stocking, sexual assault, and human slavery.

They also have a twenty four hour helpline for victims of domestic abuse and if you happen to live in Michigan, they provide emergency shelter, but there's a lot of resources at their organization for anyone across the country.

So for more info or to donate, head on over to Underground Railroadinc.

Dot org and that will be linked in our show notes as usual and then posted forever on Shared on our Instagram page That's Messed Up Pod as a story and saved forever inner WWSPD highlights.

And thank you for that.

And next week we'll be doing Blast season seven, episode thirteen.

Oh, it's such a good episode.

We really I like this podcast.

Yeah, thanks for listening, guys.

We like this podcast.

We like you guys.

Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.

That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

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And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Dun dun,