Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on These are our stories.

Done done.

Yay, that's messed up.

In SVU podcast another episode.

Here we are.

I'm Lisa Traeger and I'm Kara Klank.

We talk SVU episodes, True Crimes, talk to guests from the show and we chat and we've.

Got we've I haven't talked.

Yeah, I haven't seen you in weeks.

I have a huge name dropping moment that I'd like to discuss.

Okay, so you.

Know, I've been raving about Natalie Polomidez's show.

She's here in New York.

I don't know why she thought of me, but I'm glad she did.

She messages me, She goes, I have tickets to Broadway show.

Do you want to come with me on Friday?

I go, you are Friday night off?

You're like, you're always performing?

She goes, and my show's aren't one in the morning, so I was free.

So so she's like, they have a private event.

I have free Do you want to go to this Broadway show?

I go great.

We get there.

It's called art.

We have like four throw seats and I know this play from high school, so I feel really like educated and cool.

But it's James Cordon.

Yes, it's Bobby kind of Ollie, and it's Neil Patrick Harris.

And basically James Cordon and Neil Patrick Harris went to her show.

We're obsessed with it, gave her these tickets.

We're backstage.

James Cordon's making me a cocktail.

Neil Patrick Harris is on the floor so I could sit on a chair, and I'm talking to Bobby kennavally, trying that to say funky tasting spunk directly to his face.

I didn't.

I didn't, but.

I'm like, God, of course this happens after we've done his episode of Best for You, haven't we.

I didn't even bring up best Tea.

I acted since I was a plus one, you know, I acted normal enough.

I brought up Dexter to Neil Patrick Harris.

I did.

I brought up I'll tell you my thing right now for this.

I have one too.

I have one too.

But it was so cool.

Wait, that's crazy.

I passed the poster for it on my way to see you.

Mary this summer and Jared and I were talking about it because my husband used to work for Cordon and he My and Jared knew the play.

He's like, oh, yeah, I knew that play was I brought them up.

I go my high school did it?

They go, you're a high school?

And then I got to be like my high school put up equis.

It was a really progressive, cool program, you know.

But but Bobby eventually goes, so do you know anyone here?

And I go, no, I'm her plus echo that's why.

But James really like, I mean, he blew it out of the wall.

I mean, he was incredible.

He was the best part of that show.

Really.

Yeah, it's like kind of crazy.

I didn't expect it.

I didn't expect my I mean, I'm obsessed with Bobby Kennavolli.

That's whoy.

I was like most excited to see and for throw and the lighting, like it was really cool.

And because it's the like Theater Cares Week or something like that, they were auctioning off paintings at the end from the show for an Aide's charity, and so that was cool.

They broke the fourth wall at the end and there was like five thousand and fourth.

You know, like people were going out things, but I like love New York.

I had the best day.

Well, yeah, I started at the Food Pank, then I went to World Trade Center to do a podcast seventy seventh floor.

Then I walked to go to a Broadway show, and then I walked to the Comedy Cellar fifty blocks and I had three spots, and I go, I mean, New York City is insane.

I'm like, I can't even believe I did so much in a day.

I'm sitting with Bobby Kennavali and I have like four more hours of activity left.

So I've just been really corny about New York.

But that was like so cool.

I love being backstage at Broadway.

It means more than anything.

I think it's like more exciting than even SNL.

I think the only time I've ever done that was for Oh Mary, But that's the only time I've ever done it.

It's cool, though it's.

Hard, yeah, but oh but also what was funny because I fucked up in my head.

You know, I'm stoned.

But Natalie, we went outside and we're trying to enter, which is crazy.

You're supposed to like wait inside and then be brought backstage.

So then the security was looking for us, and then they're like Natalie, And then everyone that was waiting at the stage door was like happy for Natalie.

So everyone kept going okay, Natalie, and everyone started clapping that we got to go backstage, so it was like really a supportive group as well.

I bet it's so funny if you're just like a Broadway like if you're just like a tourist going to see Broadway or you don't really know like how that Natalie is such a talented performer, You're like, Wow, James Cordon and the cast of Art really loved the girl from the progressive commercials, you know, like yeah.

Like wow, Okay, I guess that's but all stage all right.

I wonder if it's such a star studded performance.

I would say it was like the coolest door guy's security of any show I'd ever been to, Like chatting with me when I was waiting for Natalie to arrive, like didn't know what, like just really cool people working at this theater.

It's really exesing and you I'm sorry you said, what did you say about Dexter?

Did you talk to Neil Patrick Harris about Dexter well, because I'm wearing a Dexter Morgan bracelet.

So I got to be like Yana and this seems bad, but like, I don't care about him as much as Bobby, Like I'm trying to preserve some sort of humility with this other man, you know, Like, and I mostly just talked about how great Natalie Show was, which might have been rude, but Neil I was like, dude, I loved that noise you made.

He hasn't watched it yet.

And then he told me who he based his character on, and I fully forgot, So that sucks, but I.

Go, that was so cool.

I'm like, you guys were fun.

I loved when he like realized, you know, he was the Bay Harper Butcher and we had like a funny little chat about it.

Wow, the president, you think the president of the Magic Castle hanging out?

He's the president of the Magic Castle.

He at least he was for a long time.

He still is.

No but James Gordon, I would say, blew me away.

And I didn't realize he was like this Tony winner and a theater guy, and maybe I should have, but he really like surprised me.

It was so like, I loved his physicality.

Oh my god, did you see this Quentin Tarantino interview?

Okay, so I woke up this morning.

I just scrolled.

I don't have anything.

So he was doing an interview and it's like his ten favorite or twenty favorite movies of this century or something I don't know.

And he hates Paul Dano.

There will be blood, he goes, it would be higher on my list.

But fuck Paul Dano.

He's weak sauce.

He's not a good actor.

He sucked in Little Miss Sunshine.

I'm adding my own.

He did not say what like, but that's yeah, yeah, but yeah, just like fully going in on Paul Dano and how much he sucks.

Whoa, Okay, yeah, crazy because I think he's really talented.

Well, but Quentin Tarantino strikes me as the kind of person that if you pissed him off, he never forgets.

Oh yeah, he said he was uninteresting in Little Miss Sunshine and oh so you put him with the weakest male actor in SAG.

I'm not saying he's giving a terrible performance.

I'm saying he's giving a non entity performance I don't care for.

Okay, this is why I'm bringing this up.

I was like, why am I saying this?

Okay, I don't care for him.

I don't care for Owen Wilson, and I don't care for Matthew Lillard.

Whoa yeah, Tarantino just out here, just right a bullet.

But remember I told Matthew Lillard I loved his physicality and facial expressions.

He said it was like the rudest thing you could say to an actor and got so offended.

And so with James Corden, I wanted to be like, I loved his physicality, like I loved the way he played this character.

But I'm like, is it rude because of this Matthew Lillard thing?

And then Quentin Tarantino thinks Matthew Lillard is like the worst actor.

There might be a difference though, also because physicality in a play is like necessary because you really have to do play for like people that are in the back of the room, you know, like whereas on TV.

I think when people hear physicality they think that you're eating, like you're doing too much, you know, you're like chewing the scenery.

I guess, but wait, that's that's wow, okay, And I.

Do want to do own also, So I went to the food bank a few times.

I am obsessed, but I was going through donations because thinks, you know, holidays, people donate more.

We had to check all the expiration dates food that expired in twenty nineteen.

Yeah, I mean everyone's clear their cabinets out.

That's like crazy, That's yeah, it's sort of why.

It's like if you heard, yeah, you should either mostly go out and buy cans or you.

Should just give money because the food banks, Like what I've heard is like if you have the means to give money, food banks need they have deals with places, so your money will go farther if you just give them money as opposed to you going to like a shopwrite and buying a bunch of cans of peas.

You know.

Yeah, but also you know, some of them a lot of good, Like there was a lot of the say, like you could tell it was one person went and bought like every mac and cheese box at their local store or something, and that was great.

But yeah, I was really I guess I wasn't shocked, but I was like, what the fuck, Like, you're trying to give people food that expired six years ago?

That's what you want to give them.

I was really disturbed.

Actually, well, okay, wait, let me tell you my name.

Who I saw.

So I was at a party that I go to every year, and I saw David des Melchin.

Oh my god, and he I just read his article either he just did a big interview.

Oh he would bulcher.

Yeah, because I didn't know about him until Dexter, and so I've been reading so much about him.

Well, like we always just like say hi to each other.

But I was like, he doesn't know who I am, but he said hi to me for he was like saying hi to me first.

And I was like, oh my god, I'm so glad I'm running into you.

I was like, I you know, I watched that Boston Strangler movie you were in and I thought it was really great.

And he goes, oh god, I'm so horrible, like like meeting his characters, like the things I.

Have to do in that movie.

Oh, And I go, yeah, I go And then I go, wait a minute, Dexter, I also saw you in Dexter.

You were awesome.

He goes, now that was fun.

He just kept talking about how fun it was, and I go, yeah, and like you're the well it's no spoilers, but I'm like the twists, you know, like he goes, I know, wasn't that cool?

Like he was really he was like, I was like, you know, the Boston Shrinkler movie was really good.

I don't know why it didn't get he goes was He's agreed, He's like, I thought that was a great film.

I was surprised that it didn't get more.

I was.

I was saying that.

I said, I'm surprised to get more attention.

And then I was like, but Dexter and he was like, just couldn't stop talking about how fun it was.

Well, and he was friended with Kristin Ritter.

It seems what I got from the interviews with her like she loves him the most, Like they were friends going into it.

I wonder if they did some if Marvel something together or something like that.

Oh, perhaps he's like, yeah, he's yeah, I forgot.

He's in Dark Night.

He's in so much more sad than I know, because I don't watch a lot of this stuff exactly.

Oh, he's not in my genre.

Wait, isn't Prisoners a famous Paul Dano movie?

Yes?

And that that's what I was reading.

I was reading, like the it was mostly the whole interview was him talking about his work in Prisoners, but changed his life because he was supposed to.

He was broke as fuck.

He was offered this movie for twenty grand and he needed the money.

But there was like a Michael Kane quote about listening to your heart and what does your heart say?

And he just he turned it down and the next day he had the audition for Prisoners.

Because the guy Dallas villa Venu or whatever.

He.

Dennis villa Venue I believe it's pronounced Denny Villeneu.

He loved The Dark Knight and Nolan, so he like was he was excited to cast this guy and just mansion and said like during the whole time on set that like Dennis wanted to talk about Nolan and like, oh nor now.

But because he didn't take this twenty thousand dollars project, he was able because he would have been on a flight, he wouldn't be able to go an audition for Prisoners, okay, and it changes everything.

He's the nicest guy, Like we chatted for a little while and what's crazy is I just googled him to make sure that I was saying his last name right, and when you google him, it says people also search for Paul Dano, and it says trending under Paul Dano's name because clearly he Quententino his name in his mouth, Tarantina about his name in his mouth, and now everyone's talking about Paul.

Dan But also like he was a kid, but obviously so good in There Will be Blood but like Escape It, Dan Mora is incredible.

I just don't think he's back like Owen Wilson.

Sure, but then Midnight in Paris is in his top twenty movies or in his top ten, like he keeps putting people the movies that with the actors, Like you hate Owen Wilson, but you loved Midnight in Paris.

I don't understand that.

Yeah, but Toy Story three is his number two pick?

Wow?

Wow?

Wait who else did I see it?

Wait?

So, but you could tell he had fun with that part.

It was Yeah, I'm glad you guys hung out.

Yeah, Holiday, he's gonna start it, honey.

Oh, I know, I saw I saw former guests of the pod Ricky Linnholm, I saw a couple of other fun folks.

Oh, and I'm mid Montreal December seventeenth, tomorrow, tomorrow if you're watching, oh yeah, you're listening comesorrow Montreal.

Okay, wait, so let's talk about how my of course, my feed is filled with this, so your feed's gonna be filled with this.

But like, I keep seeing ninety different videos about how Rollin's and Finn are having to split time because SVU cannot afford both actors full time.

I'm like, sort of, I do feel like the money is probably insane when you've just been on a show for that long, But I'm like, you can't figure out a way.

But to me, it's like, keep Rollin's part time, we need Finn full time.

Like she's a professor on the side.

I don't get that, but.

I think they should just bring her in as the bad Wong, have her come into profile once in a while.

But she's not in every Is she in the beginning?

Is she in the credits this season?

I can't remember, I don't I have I'm really behind on this season, to be honest, Yeah, but I mean, I oh, I'm caught up.

But I said he's not mad and that he's annoyed with people spinning it.

It just is what it is, and he's just looking forward to season twenty seven is what he said, or twenty eight or whatever.

He's like, I'm just looking for the next one.

It's about making it to twenty eight.

He goes.

I love this show.

They've done so much for me.

And he said, and that gives He goes, if I got time, I'll find a way to make a dime something like that.

So yeah, he's work.

He's out there working and doing other stuff, focusing on music.

So I don't know, well I know, but also that CMZ started to interrupt you.

But this TMZ interview was at Chanelle's tenth birthday party.

So at the end of the interview, he goes and thanks everyone for showing up to Chanelle's tenth birthday, TMZ leave your gift on the gift table, Like, what is happening?

I I feel like, oh, I'm caught up.

And so I know a lot of people that listen to us, maybe a lot of people say they stopped after the Maloney years, so some people don't still watch the show.

But if you're not caught up recently, he fit, we talked about it.

I think on this podcast, Finn got like bamboozled.

He got like sort of led into a bait and switch and he got eat up.

And so now the context is he keeps he came back on the last episode, but then he's like, I don't think I'm ready yet.

I'm like, fucking Finn Tutuola is ready to come back, you know what I mean.

But they're saying he's not ready because it's this whole thing.

I just hope it's not too distracting because I do like a lot of these new episodes in the newer season.

I really feel like this new showrunner is bringing it back to old school and I like it, Like did you watch the Jemima Kirk episode yet?

Or you haven't had a chance.

The Jemima Kirk episode is really cool.

They did like a Oppenheim Brothers episode or like not really, but it's like these two bros that do real estate together, and that one's really fucked up.

There's a couple of like really like interesting episode.

I don't know.

It's like, like, I like where it's going this season.

Some of it.

I feel like I saw one where I was like, what.

Well, let's bond over all because I watched all her fault and beast in me.

Okay, so be Sindmy's my next thing, because everybody's been telling me how good that is.

We've been watching Slow Horses.

We're almost done.

Fucking loves Slow Horses.

But I just watched All Her Fault.

I haven't watched that yet.

It's funny.

Oh it's this guy slow Horses.

I mean, Gary, oldman.

Gary.

Can you have the same face for one minute?

No, he can't, but he's he's really I think we might have already talked about this on this pot, but I love him and he's so smelly in the show.

But he's really good, but smell.

But yeah, All Her Fault let's talk about everybody.

Give it a give it a watch.

I really would Jared watch it with you.

He watched the first two and then he went out of town and I was like, can I keep going?

And he was like yeah, So.

He also when we were watching it together, he was definitely like kept going, Wait can we pause it?

Do I do that?

Like?

He was really like, I think everybody should watch it with their husbands.

If you're in a heteronormative relationship, and if you have kids, like watch it with your husbands and see how they react, because it's pretty heavy handed on how men.

But the thing they think that everything's fifty to fifty and it's not.

But it's not heavy.

It is heavy handed because the messaging is very clear.

But I don't find that it's hitting you over the head.

It is subtle a story.

It is done so well.

I thought, yeah, if you're a woman, it's heavy.

It's like if you know it, you can recognize it.

But I would say it's not heavy.

Heavy handed is the wrong word.

It's just a clear message, clear like of what they're talking about.

It's not beating you over the head for sure.

But I thought the show was really good.

I love the twists and turns.

At the end, I was like, this is gonzo, Like the ending is gonzo, But I thought, like, it's.

Not that gonzo because to me, it hammer's home.

The point spoiler.

If you have not seen it and don't want the end, just fast forward fast thirty seconds.

I have to say this, Casey, I don't know, plug your ears, but I doubt you care.

You're gonna watch this.

But I loved when she goes, yeah, I manage your allergies.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

I just thought that was but not that part.

I didn't think that part was Gonzo.

I kind of thought, just like how they're connected is like insane.

Oh the car, the car crashed, the babies, like they're both driving home with new babies on the same night.

Like, but I liked it because it like shows the path.

You know.

It's like this guy that on the paper, I didn't think he could get more evil.

And Sarah Snook was saying in an interview that like for this all to work, she had to make sure that it like she was obsessed with him in the beginning, you know, like there she was really in love with him and happy that to be in a relationship with him, you know.

And somebody wrote something somewhere that I'm sorry, I can't credit you because I don't remember, and it might have been read it.

But like they were like at this point that that actor Jake Lacey, We're just you're not gonna cast him in anything where I don't immediately think he's the fucking villain, like he's so he was good and obvious child and not a villain.

But yeah, then yeah, and then on it's just been.

Like yeah, but since and it's just been like douche vibes.

I was next to him at an airport, going to UH with his family, going to Aspen for a gig a couple like a year ago, a year and a half ago, and I was like, damn, even in person, I'm kind of like, are you a dick?

Like I don't know, he's definitely And then he played the We've covered it on the podcast The Abducted in plain Sight, a documentary that like, he plays that guy in the dramatization of it that was on Hulu or whatever, like a friend of the Family.

I think it's.

Called he plays the guy who like grooms his next door neighbor and then.

Kidnaps her twice.

Damn.

So like they're giving him he's taking a lot of dirtbag rolls.

And the only thing that bothers me and it's kind of informed.

What I'm trying to work on is just like I and this happened, and it's like so heavy handed.

In the foreshadow, they'll like zoom in on an item and you're like, Okay, well, I guess that.

It's like those when they zoom in on a scar and you're like, okay, flag that for follow up.

You know, I don't strike.

These little drops of stuff that are so like did you see the security systems turned off, and.

It's like, yeah, we got it.

I don't, well because I don't really I get that people maybe feel like they have to telegraph stuff for people that are like dumb or something.

Not I'm we're on our phones they don't trust.

Yeah, is that it?

It's called because the thing is is like people are more sleuthy than ever.

People are more looking for Easter eggs than ever before.

I mean, I remember in mad Men, everybody's like Don Draper's wife is going to get killed by the Manson family.

There's so many clues, there's so many Easter eggs, Like everyone's looking for Easter eggs, like if you had just For example, in All Her Fault, there is a moment where they zoom in on Sarah Stook's scar on her shoulder and they don't talk about it until for five episodes later.

Could they not just have shown her taking the selfie and if you notice the scar, you notice the scar?

You know what I mean?

It's the dumbing.

It's like the Internet would have said, I saw the scar are in the selfie scene?

You know what I mean?

Like, I'm with you.

I I don't like feeling like I'm an idiot that I'm being treated.

Like an idiot.

I don't, yeah, but I agree.

It's like they are.

They're not calling you an idiot, they're saying everyone's an idiot.

They're on their phones.

Like.

But I liked the I liked the Chicago element, of course, and I liked the married element.

I liked the now way I live in Chicago, where you have that home, I would, I believe because I think I told you this last summer when I was on a boat.

Remember I was on a boat and then we passed the house and he's like, I live there.

So I feel it's like Evanston, Winetka, like those first north Shore suburbs on the water, or those homes and just that because like when I grew up, me and my friends in high school would get in her car and drive up the North up the Lake Shore, drive all the way north and look at the big houses.

That was like part of our like lives, like our free time.

Yeah, so up like north Shore, the houses are big and like up all the way to Lake Forest.

But I feel like they're more right north Shore because they go to work in the city.

Because they do these like sweeping like drone shots of their whole property and You're like, what the fuck that's like in a city, Like it's crazy.

I mean, I know someone, but it's closed.

Someone said that they filmed it in a different place and it was so obvious, and I'm like, I don't think it was.

It wasn't obvious to me because I know, like, you can have those homes in Evanston, which is ten minutes from the city or like thirty twenty minutes from downtown.

You know.

I was also very and you know, I'm just nitpicking.

I was very wonder I was wondering how Dakota Fanning's character is so rich.

And yes, there's generational well she probably has family money, but she's sort of high up in publishing, but not really because she's not.

She's still waiting for this big fish that she's trying to get.

Right, She's not like yeah making she means.

And her husband's a high school teacher.

I know there's he comes from money for sure, one of them come from money because even working and publishing, like he makes a comment to her like oh a promotion and more responsibly even no more money.

So that's a passion project high school.

That's like a passion thing like that.

Yeah, and they go to the same school.

They go to this same like private school with these freaking people that have this massive So I was kind of wondering, how Dakota fanning, But yeah, family money for sure.

I like it.

I like the friendship in it.

I think that that girl's relationship with her husband is so fucking nuts too.

The mom culture of it, with that that woman at school that's always like, are you gonna volunteer for the fundraiser?

And like, you know, I thought there was like a lot of good shit in that show.

It was really fun.

I had a lot of fun.

I did watch a movie I hadn't seen ever before.

I watched Magnolia for the first time.

Wait, that's crazy because Jared has talked to me like three times in the past two months about how Magnolia is so good.

And at Thanksgiving dinner, somebody was trying to tell me that Tom Cruise has like never made a bad movie and that he's a great person, and I was like, I can't have this conversation with you, But I was like, it could be a generous person and I'm sure in general, but he's like, yeah, what like and I was like, somebody told you one story about how he's nice on a set.

That does not mean like that he's not responsible for a lot of bad shit that's gone down.

Also, with rich people being nice, it's like sending everyone a coconut cake doesn't affect him.

Like it's also about what you sacrifice when you do something nice, right, So it's like buying pizzas for everyone on crew doesn't affect him.

He also sends Coda Fanning a pair of shoes every year for her birthday.

I saw that on an Instagram.

They worked on something together.

Sure, I'm like trying to think and he sends her shoes, right, did she play his kid?

I don't know.

I know she's worked with Denzel, but I don't know.

She said it's Tom Cruise that he finds out her size and like get her nice ass shoes.

They're in war of the World's war.

That's it.

Thank you, thank you.

Yep, it's a woman, it's a woman's worth.

So I don't think I.

Women's Where Daily picked it up right away in their footwear news section.

They're like, hold up, but somebody was saying, well, have you ever seen Magnolia?

And I go no, I've never seen Magnolia.

That's a blind spot for me.

I really need to see that movie.

Well, I bought it for four ninety nine because I'm gonna watch it again because I didn't care for it, but I like but I do think it's like one of Tom Crus's best performances.

Okay, like he is really good in it.

It's weird.

I have to give it another watch.

Casey, I would say, it's the movie that changed my life single handedly.

I went to film school after I wanted to go to After I watched that movie, I was like.

I want to go to film school and move to California.

So I love me.

I got a wow because I like Hidings.

Well.

The reason I watched it.

Kate Berlant did an interview about gift giving, and I guess in high school her friend gave her a prop from the movie One of the Frogs.

Oh, okay, and.

So she has it authenticated and it's this like great gift And I've just been on a Kate Berlant kick lately, I would say.

And so I went to watch Magnolia because of it, and I have to I have to watch it again because it's phil Seymour Hoffmann.

It's it's fun, but it was tough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should watch it on the big screen.

I watched it on my laptop and I was playing Tetras, so it's like, oh.

Yeah, oh my god.

There's like all these photos of him and Dakota together doing press for War of the World.

Okay, anyway, that is our little recommendation corner for everybody.

Let's should we get started.

Go to GODA That's messed Up live dot com for the link to Lisa's site.

You can check out her road dates.

You can also buy our merch We have our lowest Louise Louis Lewis whatever shirt that is amazing.

It's really soft and I love wearing it.

It is on sale as well as a Christmas ornament a couple of other things.

Go buy some that's messed up crap.

For your for yourself and for your the TMU lover in your life.

And let's get started.

Let's go.

We're gonna do Pop Today, Season twelve, episode eleven.

No recollection of this.

Like I knew Drea Matteo is in this episode, so when I sawry, I go, oh this one, But then I went why don't I know this at all.

Absolutely knew there was an episode of this, have seen it.

I have seen Drea to Matteo.

I've always known that she was a guest, but totally was like, how's it gonna end?

Like I really did, Like I love that, I love I love.

Not remembering, and I have a lot of thoughts, but let's let's let's let's start, okay.

So this episode comes out in twenty eleven.

We're going back to twenty eleven, and I always think of season twelve, as you know, the final Benson and Stabler together season.

So these are there.

These are sort of their final moments together, the last few episodes of them together.

They don't know it at the time.

So we open on a guy making balloon animals, a carousel, carnival music, smiling children.

So this is going nowhere good because we're watching S FORU.

And then this guy is ushering all these kids off the marry go round and he sees this one kid on the bench he's on like one of those This is what Oscar likes to ride when he goes on the carousel.

He likes to be in the bench where he sits down.

And I always have to go with him, and I'm like, this is can we not go on the park that goes up and down?

You know?

He wants the bench that looks like a peacock that's his thing.

And this kid's lying on it.

And the guy goes, yeah, man, faking sleep's not going to get you a free ride.

He sees this like nine ten year old kid like asleep, and he nudges the kid and the kid falls right over and the guy's like, someone call nine one one.

Now.

Ben's and his stabler are on the scene getting the scoop.

No parents, no id, no one's reported a kid missing in the area.

Melinda's like, the kid's body temp is down two degrees and Stabler goes, so he's been dead a little over an hour.

And Milinda's like.

Okay, go off, I guess you know some information about forensics now, baby, And he's like, yeah, I wish I wasn't so good at that, but I have been finding dead kids for eleven years now.

So we also know that this kid is dead now that we're hearing about the body temperature.

Like I didn't know at the beginning, it wasn't very clear that he was totally dead, but the kid is dead.

He's in clean clothes, he's got new shoes.

Maybe he's a runaway because when she lifts up his shirt, he's got bruises all over his torso that are healing.

Some could be as old as two weeks.

They could be as recent as eighteen hours.

She doesn't really know.

And Stabler's like, the only thing we do know.

Someone beat the hell out of this kid.

And then they do a close up on the cold dead body of a kid who looks like he's nine.

It's a lot, and then we're at the credits, so now we're downloading Daddy Craigan.

The kid was on the carousel for an hour before the guy noticed, So I guess falling asleep isn't really the tact to getting a free ride.

It's just existing.

Because this guy doesn't notice anything.

It was crowded, he said, he didn't check.

The kid must have snuck on.

Elliott's going through you know CCTV footage or you know security footage.

And Benson's like, I gotta go.

I've got to find the missing witness on them marine trial.

And I wonder what was up because they don't usually dismiss Benson for a full day unless she's like pregnant or doing the VMA's or something like that.

You know, like we I don't know why she would just be like, bye, I gotta go for the day and not be in this episode of this show that I'm the star of.

But she ain't.

She ain't here for much of the episode.

She comes back a little at the end.

Uh So, Stabler shows up with footage of the kid getting out of a cab, So let's find this cab the cab.

Finn and Stabler go talk to the cab driver.

They show him the pick the picture of the kid getting out, and dunt done.

He's like, that's my nephew Ethan.

So now we're at Melinda's house and she's giving the cops the cause of death tension pneumothorax, which like she describes as a basically a broken rib that punctured his lungs.

Stabler thinks someone beat this kid and caused his bet death and Melinda's like, no, but it could have been an accident.

I have to rule it inconclusive.

So that's we've talked about that before on the podcast.

It can either it's like it's not not either way, making a determination it's inconclusive.

So next we have the sad pull the sheet back moment where the cab driver and his sister are iding the body.

It's awful.

The mom is devastated, she's crying and don't worry, there's more sadness to come.

Ethan's father was a nine to eleven like first responder and died from inhaling toxic dust.

So he's gone.

And Joe was his brother is his brother, and he's the cab driver and he's been like filling in in a dad role.

And Ethan wasn't feeling good that day, so he kept him home from school because he had a stomach ache.

But they're like, but.

Why did you drop him off in your cab at a playground or at a park and he's like, well, he said he was feeling better and he asked me if he could go to a birthday party.

Did he make it to the birthday party?

There's no birthday party there where They were like, hey, Ethan was a guest here and now he's dead, Like, I don't know.

That's a hole that never gets closed up.

So when they tell the mom about the broken rib, she suddenly knows exactly who did it.

She goes, it's that kid, that kid at school, Blake Murphy.

He gave Ethan a black eye two weeks before.

So now we're at Blake's house and this mom is hashtag boy momming as hard as she fucking can.

She's like, oh, the school made such a federal case out of nothing.

And then she goes, Blake, get your heinie out here, and I hadn't heard heine in a long time.

And she's annoyed that Blake got suspended for assaulting a teacher because she had to stay home with him for a week and miss work.

And then they stopped this kid from playing video games and he's like, no, Ethan was the one hitting me.

He kept telling Blake how he was learning to fight so he could kick his ass, and they were like, well, who was teaching him to fight?

And he goes, he said his uncle, Joe was teaching him.

So uh oh, let's go back around to this uncle at the cab company.

The boss shows them the GPS where Joe is and he's an inwood Hill Park, which is like up in the Bronx and no, he's Stabler's like, no, one's going to take a cab from there, and the boss is pissed.

He's like, this guy's gonna lose his job.

He hasn't moved in a half an hour.

So Finn and Stabler pull up to this park.

It's dark.

They see Joe and his cab.

He's making some kind of extremely obvious deal that they can see everything in the darkness of him, you know, handing someone a lot of money.

Stabler and Finn start moving through the woods, but it's kind of just like a few branches, like they're not actually, it's not like a thicket.

It's just them moving a couple of branches out of the way.

And then they stumble upon this group of guys and they're watching two others fight.

They break it up and really quickly find out that done done done.

It's a fight club, and they're like, no one's getting hurt here, we're doing this for fun.

So now we will.

Obviously get into it with the crimes.

But what is your relationship with the movie Fight Club?

I mean, my relationship with the movie Flight Club is that I watched it when it came out, but not in the theater, in a dorm room with my friends, and we thought it was a cinematic masterpiece, like we had never seen anything better, Like we loved it so much, we love the music, we love the movie.

Like I know now it's a bit of a it feels like it's like an edge Lord's anthem type.

Well, because they've misunderstood it.

Yes, it's a satire that they missed.

It's like the like so many things.

Well, it's like the Wall Street guys being into American psycho and it's like yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what it's not aspirational.

We're making fun of you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say, because I was an Edward Norton head.

Yes, at this movie was everything to me, and it made me start reading Chuck Pollonic books.

And I've read almost every single one of his books up to Haunted.

I owned them all multiple times, hardcovers.

I joined his Chuck Polani's fan club.

I was in I'm a sticker from the fan club on my mirror still from my childhood bedroom, and I had a movie sized poster in.

My college door room off club soap.

Yeah, No, it was that.

I think it was the two of them.

I feel like I wouldn't have gotten it without their faces.

And well, no, it's like the one where brad Pitt's holding the box.

It's like coming it right.

I love Helena Bonham Carter, I love Edward Norton.

I've or expressed my at the time adoration for brad Pitt, like so I was just like all about it.

I like loved that movie.

I thought it was so cool and like and well, sure is so cool.

And I guess it didn't do well in the box office and it was panned.

It's in the in the DVDs.

Is when it came to like everyone was like, this is trash.

Rosy O'Donnell I remember ruined it for me on her show.

She revealed the end oh wow before I even saw it.

But I was young enough that didn't bother me or something like that, Like but I remember her being like, what the fuck?

And one of the articles I read for the crime talked about Rose A.

Donald doing it.

It was at a time where like a kind of a twist was like, so a big twist at the end, was like, I mean, isn't it around the same time as like I see dead people and that like you know.

How shit, Yeah, And that's what Rosie was saying.

She goes, well that the sixth sense was better because here he gave him a business card, and I get the sentiment of like, you shouldn't have a physical card and hand it over if you're a figment of someone's imagination or something.

But like Bitch has barely been out, like you can't say that, but it sold sixteen million DVDs.

Wow, And that's how I watched it.

I watched it on DVD and.

Fincher, I guess these are just facts that won't be in the crime.

But I learned from reading all this stuff.

It was Edward Norton looked like the most ordinary actor he'd ever seen, and he fought to have him.

And then they also talked about how Brad Pitch just like set the bar for like six pack was invented after that movie, like that he set the bar for action stars.

Like his body in that movie is like it's pretty nuts wild.

Yeah, No, I I loved it.

Seems were crazy movie.

It was just dark and bad and like meat Loaf has tits and you're like, what the fuck is going on?

What's this penguin?

Like I just it really blew was Robert Paulson right?

Is that?

Yeah?

Like there's so much from it.

Like that's the thing.

I don't really feel like I've rewatched it.

I've maybe caught it again like a piece of it, but I don't really feel like I've rewatched it a ton.

I think I've seen it more than once, but.

Like, oh, I watched it once every year or two, I would say, yeah, it's a it's it was.

It's a good one.

But that's interesting how it's been kind of like bastardized by a different culture of guys.

But the that's the end of Act one.

Though of this episode is we're finding out that this is a fucking fight club and it's twenty eleven.

So I don't know if that's like a time Liza is gonna get into it, but apparently people are fight clubbing.

So in wood reun also is this thing of like is it like a Marilyn Manson video games are disrupting the youth or like is it a blame or is it a.

Thing that right some people do.

Yeah, So at the top of act two, we're in Woodroom Blinds.

One of the kids from the fight is Nicki Roberts.

Stabler goes to talk to him, asks about his fight with this kid Anthony, and he's like, oh, tonight was our first fight.

I never knew him before, Like, and uh, how did this come to be?

He goes Pop set it up and they're like, who's Pop and he's like his dad hank uh And they're like, he looks kind of young to be your dad, like cause you're thirteen or something.

And he's like, oh, he married my mom five years ago.

He adopted me and said I have to call him Pop, which is wild I And it's one of these double, these clever nicknames of these shows, Like I always think of it as pop, like poping someone in the face, you know, and but it's also what he has to call his stepdad.

So just as Stabler is asking, well does your stepdad make you fight?

In walks the mom and it's Drea de Matteo.

As we've mentioned of Soprano's fame, she has gone a little bit off the deep end.

I feel like I saw her on a podcast recently talking about chemtrail.

Casey's nodding, I don't know what a Kim trail is.

What's going on?

Yeah, I think that's why we didn't try to get her for the pod, because I actually know somebody who kind of knows her, And I feel like I could have tried, and I was like, no, we can't.

She's like maga, She's like KEM trail, Like, keem trails are like kem trails are like do you ever look up in the sky and just see like a white like like not a cloud, but like a white plume going across the sky.

Yeah.

People think that's chemicals being distributed onto our crops, into our water supply to control us to do this and that, like there's a whole conspiracy about chemtrails.

And I saw her.

She went on the podcast of Jamie Lin Sigler and whoever plays the brother on the Sopranos.

They have a podcast.

Yeah I like it, right, Why one of the clips but I like that?

Well, yeah, I saw one of the clips and she's on and she's talking to them about how she's done her own research about kemtrails and she's like, I started to notice that the snow tasted differently, and they're like, you're eating the snow.

She goes, yeah, I gotta find out what's going on.

She was talking about like tasting snow pre and post chemtrail and Jamie and Jamie Lynn and the host were just like uh huh yeah, Like they were just kind of like, well, we're not gonna like call you out for being kogub bananas right here, but like she's got some pretty fringe ideas.

I'll say that.

Uh so, I know, disappointing, but she's was at a time at this time was quite famous for the Sopranos, and this is like a big guest star for her.

And uh she's she comes barging into the room.

Her name is Sandra, and she's like, I don't want to hear shit from you.

Like she doesn't even really like talk Tostable, doesn't even let him talk, and she's like, Nikki, let's go.

And Stabler's like, excuse me, I'm not done with him, and she's a pushy broad like she's like, I'm taking my son and my husband and we're getting out of here.

And the kid looks back at Stabler as his mom drags him away, and it's kind of one of those looks, one of those looks that hauntspent and is Stabler when a kid is like, you're not gonna help me, like and so Stabler sees the other kid from the fight walking away.

Ed is like so he's just walking and Hardwick's like, well it's his first defense, so it's a desk ticket, bye bye, and Stabler's pissed.

She He's like, these guys are forcing their kids to fight and they're betting on it.

And she's like, well, the boy didn't say he was forced, so it seems like it's just for sport.

And they're like, well, what about the dead kid Ethan And she's like, hold on, dead kid, Like what does that have to do with this?

And they're like, well, we saw his uncle Joe paying off Nicki steppedad Hank and it's probably because Ethan lost to Nicki in a fight, and Finn's like, yeah, like there definitely was a fight, but we just have to prove it.

So in the cement room bars we've got Hank Roberts and he gives Stabler this like sort of cocky, half assed apology like, sorry, officer, we didn't know we were doing anything wrong.

And they're like, well, you were promoting gambling, so you're gonna get a ticket for that, and he's like, yeah, but you know I could of Like I could have you could have get let me out of here.

A while ago with the ticket.

What's going on?

And they're like, well, let's talk about that.

You know, fat stack of cash.

We saw Joe handing you and he goes, what do you want?

Like it was alone, he needed he needed a car repair.

I gave him a loan and Stabler's not buying and he's like, well, Joe's next door talking, so we're obviously doing a back and forth cut next door to where Finn is putting the fear of God in Joe the uncle, being like, you know you're good for the murder of your fucking nephew right now, you little shit, And Joe's like denying everything, and Finn's like turning up the heat.

He's like, you're a pimp making a couple bucks watching your nephew get beat to death, scumbag, like you probably bet against your own nephew.

And then Joe pipes up and goes, no, that's against the rules.

And then it's like you just told on yourself, bro, Like now we know that this is some kind of actual organized fucking thing, where what rules?

Finn wants to know.

Back to Stabler, pushing Hank for more details about this kiddy fight club, and he goes, so you just let your steps on beat kids up while you pocket the cash, and Hank's like, I got a right to remain silent.

And then Stabler's like.

Yeah, okay, well I got dirt on you, like and he pulls out his rap sheet.

He's got three nine one one calls for domestic violence and he's like, neighbors made those calls.

I was never arrested, as if that's.

Like a badge of honor, Like, yeah, I got away with it three times, and Stabler's like, oh yeah, because you know where to punch so no marks are left.

Yeah.

I noticed that you're ten years younger than your wife.

She probably thought she got so lucky with you until you started smacking her around.

You hit Nikki too, and he goes, I love my son, and then he's like, well then why are you hooring him out as a punching bag.

And Stabler is really taunting this guy, and then finally Hank stands up and they're doing their little like dance that they do where they move in a circle and they kind of look like they're about to kiss, you know.

It's like this close talking thing that Stable does with everybody, and he's like, what kind of man does that?

And he's like, why don't you take off your gun and I'll show you.

So this guy Hank wants to fucking square up with Stabler, and Stabler's big.

I don't know why you think you can just fucking take Stabler and Stable.

He's pretty outwardly muscular.

There's like, right, it's not like, oh, man, underneath that big sweatshirt, I didn't know it.

He wears these like little dress shirts that are he's busting out of them.

You know, we've seen the butt too.

Come on, he's doing squats.

So Stabler slams him up against the wall in a choke hold, and he's like, I don't have my gun on me, but I've been looking for an excuse to manhandle your ass.

So Craigan walks in to get Stabler to drop the guy.

We've always got, Craigan.

They always have to have somebody watching Stable.

Do you think Stabler's ever done an unsupervised thing, because he'll he'll kill somebody if you don't look out for him.

And then Hardwick is like, you're just gonna like rough that guy up right in front of me.

You just like bait him.

And then choke him out, like what the fuck?

And in the next room, Uncle Joe is spilling.

He's like, Hank never told me that Nicky was so much bigger than Ethan.

Like this idiot, this uncle cab driver is just like I thought it was just gonna be two little kids hitting each other.

I didn't realize how big this kid was.

And to be fair, this kid Nicki is like, not to sound girl, he's like a jacked thirt ten year old, Like he's very strong, Like he's very very muscly, and the other kid that they found on the carousel looks little like so this was not a fair fight.

And he's like I tried to stop the fight, but Hank held me back.

By the time I broke free, Ethan was on the ground.

I didn't mean for him to get hurt.

And it's like you didn't.

Also didn't bring him to a hospital either, did you.

Like, you didn't bring him to get any medical attention.

You just took him home and let him stay home from school with a stomach ache.

Hardwick is like, Okay, well tell Joe, we're going to charge him for criminally negligent homicide.

And what about Hank Stabler wants to know.

Well, Hank can't be charged on the word of a co conspirator.

We have to find another witness who saw the fight.

So and Joe's an idiot.

He should have just given He should have angled for a deal and said, I'll tell you everything if I get immunity, and this guy, I'll tell you everything about Hank because he's the fucking ringleader.

It seems like, so Stabler's pissed.

We're just giving Hank free reign to beat his wife and son.

So now Stabler's at the desk with the whole family, Hank, Sandra, and Nicki, and he's writing out the desk ticket and he goes to leave with Sandra and Nicki, and Stabler goes Nicky and she's like, get away from my son.

But Stable just gives him like a handshake and was like, nice to meet you.

But he's obviously slipping him a card as they love to do.

As if I don't know, I guess there's nine one one, but I guess it's it is a good idea.

The card is a good idea because you know, Olivia gets people close to her and then it's like, here's my number, call me day or night.

It's smart.

Craigan like knows his boy.

He's like, you better not, Stabler, stay away from that kid.

And Stabler's like, no, I'm going home.

And it's like, yeah, right, you're like allergic to your home, you're not going to your home.

And but at home, he does go home and he's sitting on his bed and he's just Eli is lying there awake, second on a pacifier, and they're just staring at each other, like it's not like he's watching a sleeping child.

Eli's like, what are you looking at?

Dad?

And Stabler's just like intense.

That definitely had to affect Eli, right, He's like, I just have memories being like two three of waking up and my dad just intense's staring at me while I'm sitting on the edge of my bed because he had to see so much horror every day.

And you know, obviously this is one of those moments where we've got a show that Stabler has a personal connection because he also has children, and what kind of person would fucking put their kid into a fight club and hurt them for money.

The next day, we're at ed Koch Middle School and Stabler sees Nicki walking into school, chases him down.

When he grows to grab his arm.

Nicki winces and he's like, I fell, and Stabler's like, come on, and he goes, you can't let your dad get away with this.

Sometimes if you talk to us like words can do more than a punch.

Sometimes Nicki opens up.

He goes, Hank punched me in the chest when he found your business card on me.

So Stabler drives Nicki home and when he gets there, they're like, oh, what's going on.

There's like a cop car outside the house and the mom is outside, and who gets out of the car ed Tucker.

IAB still not on our good side at this point season twelve, we don't like Tucker quite yet.

He hasn't started He hasn't started actually being helpful to the YPD, and he also hasn't started dating Benson.

So Sandra is like, that's him.

I saw him.

I saw him do it.

He beat my husband.

And Stabler's like she's lying, and then Tucker goes, I don't know, I believe them.

Hank gets out of the car.

He's got blood.

All his nose is totally bloodied.

It's dripping down his whole face like he's been beat the fuck out of So this guy's trying to pull some shit though on the wrong dude, Like, we're not going we are absolutely not in the business of getting Stabler busted for punches he didn't throw, because let's be real, his jacket is filled with punches he did throw.

So in interrogation with Tucker, Sabler's like, look, I love to punch people, but I am not dumb enough to punch someone in broad daylight in front of their own house, Like like, look at me.

It's season twelve.

Come on, I'm not that stupid.

And Hank is giving Kragan this sob story about how Sailor had a short fuse and attacked him.

And I was just watching Nicky walk to school and then Stabler just jumped me from behind, like he got me down on the ground.

I saw it with him a lot.

It's like, ah, he molested me, he touched me, he fought me.

You know that happens to him a lot.

It does, It really does.

And it's funny because I feel like mostly people are pretty scared to like do anything against the cops because they have all the power, and like people see this massive guy and they're like, I think I'm going to level of false accusation against this guy, like it doesn't happen to Benson, right, Benson's not gotten accused of.

She's been framed, but she's not gotten accused of like Mishandling a witness.

I think they can tell he's a hot head and they will try to.

Use it, right, Yeah, I just want it now.

I'm like, I'm trying to figure out because I feel like it has happened to Benson.

But where someone said you touched me not yeah, you're right, it's framing or like she's taking a kid or yeah, yeah, like she definitely got framed, but yeah the biker so yeah, anyway, and then now Dreanda Matteo, Okay, Sandra's talking to Finn, going yes, Stabler said that he was going to teach Hank a lesson for disrespecting him and then kicked him in the face, and Finn's like, you saw all this and she goes, yeah, I don't got eyes.

Like she's very she's very sopranos the whole time.

Uh.

Stabler tells Tucker they're just saying this as revenge for me breaking up their little fight club, and Tucker is as usual antagonizing Stabler and being like, yeah, seems like this whole family's in pain.

When you're around and outside the room, Sandra and Nicki are fighting, so everybody goes to like check it out, and Sandra Nicky's like, she's trying to get me to lie and to say that Stabler hit me and that I saw Stabler hit Hank.

And Nicky is over this shit.

He's like and Sandra's like, come on, Niki, like, without Hank will be out on the street.

She's like really trying to get him to lie, and he goes, that's what you said about the other guys too.

At least they didn't beat you up like Hank does.

She looks around at Sabler and everyone is watching this go down, and she goes, well, I look like somebody punched me.

And this is where Nicky lifts up his shirt to show this huge bruise on his chest and goes, what do I look like?

Mom?

And this is where you do see that he is quite a jacked thirteen year old.

So Stabler didn't do this to me, he goes, Hank did my loving pop?

And Sandra's like, oh, baby, say it ain't so I mean She's doing quite an act too.

She's trying to act like she doesn't know that the abuse is going on.

She's like, say it ain't so, and Hank's like, no way tell him, Nicky.

And then Stabler pipes in and goes, NICKI did say his dad hit him last night, and Nicki adds, and he made her hit him last night to frame Stabler.

So the injury that Hank has on his face is from Sandra.

And Stabler looks at Tucker and then goes to arrest Hank.

So it's like, look, you gotta like you really didn't have any business being here.

Get the fuck out.

We don't see Tucker again.

In wood Room Blinds, Nicky is gabbing with Stabler, going, I never told my mom about the abuse because she works late and I didn't want her to worry.

So in this case, now we are to believe that she doesn't know about the abuse as far as we know.

Here, when did the fighting start last year?

He said he Picnicky up from school and took him to the park and then just threw him in with another kid and told him to just start fighting on the grass.

And he goes, well, what did you do?

He goes, well, I knocked the kid out, but I thought I killed him until I saw him start to move, and he's like, and what does your dad do?

He goes, oh, Pop was smiling, said he was proud.

Oh, and then he goes, whenever I lose, Pop says, it's my fault that we can't pay our bills.

So this is like fucked up.

This guy is fully just making money off of this and then blaming the kid when he doesn't do well in a fight.

He goes, one time I lost because I had a hurt shoulder, and when I got home, he just kept punching me over and over in the bad shoulder freak awful, like a masochist psycho.

Sabler's like, okay, well, we got to talk about Ethan Gilbert and Nikki's upset.

He's shaking his head.

He goes, he was a little kid.

I told Hank it wasn't fair.

I punched him light at first, and then Hank said, if you don't knock him out, you'll get it worse.

And Hank is yelling break his nose him in the eye, like sick fuck, and Nicki said Ethan started puking, and Pop shouted at him, knock him out, and he goes and I started pounding him and it felt good and he didn't know why, and I couldn't stop.

And then he went down and he didn't get up, and then he's crying and he's he's saying, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry that he died, and he's like, this kid is like fucking traumatized.

So Craigan instance, he give you the vibe of the cool older kid of in Sandlot Or am I delusional?

The boy Nikki doesn't know?

Yeah, the guy who actually eventually becomes up an MLB baseball player.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Don't you feel like they have the same kind of yes, yeah, I swag, yeah coolness.

Yeah, I mean one's more abused than the other, of course.

Yeah.

If this kid wasn't totally traumatized, I bet he'd be a star athlete.

He's very very strong, as I've said many times, and he's just like just got this fucking awful stepfather.

Wait, I'm not paying attention, or we we we met Joe?

What the guy who plays Joe?

Yeah, yeah, you know, he's the he's the powerful lifeguard.

Shut the fuck up.

Yeah, he's the only one.

I didn't look him up because I go, I don't recognize that guy.

That's why I was like, wait, was I like, did I?

She must mention Banello.

He's the fucking gird.

Oh my god.

It just goes to show you how much a mustache can do, because that mustache well and a decade, yeah, eleven years in a mustache will really put it.

That's a good that's a good disguise.

I did not clock that he's Paul Greco from the episode Breakwater, the most powerful lifeguard in New York.

And yes, oh.

My god, I didn't catch it while watching it, though I just got it.

I didn't catch it because I was thinking of the Sandlot thing, and so I looked it up and then I went, wait, excuse, Oh my gosh, I can't believe.

Wow, another another IMDb connection put together.

I love it so much, Oh my god.

So well, that's the last time we see Joe, and still he comes back eleven years later as.

A very powerful lifeguard.

But Craigan and Sandra are watching Nicky's whole confession, him crying about Ethan.

They're watching it all go down from the other side of the fish bowl glass and Craigan's like, well, what happened to Nicky's like, bio dad and she's sniffling, Oh, Nicky's dad took off when he was two, And did you know about Hank abusing Nicki?

And she goes, he always said sorry, and it's like, so before you were acting like you didn't know, and the brother was also the son was also saying that you didn't know.

But now she's like, no, I knew, but like and that then yeah, he says sorry until the next time he hits you hit and he hits your son, and she's like, well, Hank got laid off two years ago.

All he could find was a job driving a cab.

He hates it.

I feel bad for him.

And Craigan's like yeah, but babe, that doesn't give him the right to like beat you or Nicky and she's like, no, he loves Nikki.

He adopted him, Like why else would he adopt it.

It's like yeah, because it's like way easier to abuse him if he is his.

Like legal father.

And he's like, he loves me.

He tells me all the time that he loves me, and Craigan goes they all say that every last one of them.

Craigan goes press charges and will get him out of your and Nicky's lives, and she drops a little bomb, I'm having his baby.

I need him.

So she's pregnant with the abuser's baby, and Craigan's like, well, you need to get rid of him before he kills one of you, and she goes, I already lost one family when Nicky's father left.

I'm not going to break up this family too.

And that's it's just like the craziest I understand like that the domestic violence like has so many circumstances and stuff, but like your first guy left eleven years ago, this guy is beating the shit out of you.

I don't really know what the connection is, but keeping together the happy family, know is a thing that people think about when they don't leave.

One of the reasons people don't leave.

But it's frustrating to see from the outside.

Of course, at arraignment, Hank is up and who's there but our Queen, Judge Louise Lewis Lewis Lewis, Louis Slowis Preston and she's on the stand and this guy pleads not guilty.

His lawyer looks like a fucking blonde dork and he's like Hardwick's like, I want remand for this wife beater, and the lawyer's like, actually, he has very strong ties.

To the community.

It's like he's a scumbag, Like he's got three DV calls?

How is does he have strong ties to the community?

Like how is this not?

I guess no arrests And that's the problem.

It's like, no arrests means it's not like technically on the record.

So so Judge Lois gives him fifty k cash only is the bail with an order of protection to have and she grants it so he cannot go within two hundred feet of his wife or steps on And those really work.

Yeah, they work.

We've never seen them not work.

It's basically putting a layer of glass around your victims.

And he's like, so where am I gonna stay?

And they're like Riker's Island if you fuck this up.

So as they're taking him away, Sandra's like, we'll get the money, baby, and he goes, no broad in a black robe is gonna keep me from what's mine?

And Stabler's like, yeah, if she doesn't, I will, and she tells Sabler.

The wife, Sandra tells Stabler, I don't need the restraining order.

Hank would never hurt us, Like what are He's literally like hurting you all the time.

And it's like you could just say, you could literally go he loves us, he's getting better or something that would all make more sense to me than he's He would never like it's just fall de Lulu and like I wrote, yeah, like try he's changed, he'll be different.

There's so many more lies you could go with.

Sabler says, uh, he's gonna drive them home and they're gonna put a patrol car on their house all night.

So then Craigan shows up and tells them, listen, there's a shortage of police.

We got a traffic cop a little bit here, Like, uh, we don't have we don't have anybody from this one precinct on their house anymore.

So we got to go over there and watch them ourselves.

And uh, Finn offers to go and with Stabler, and Craigan's like, no, I'll go.

He doesn't want this dumb ass guy trying to set up any more of his cops.

So Stabler and Craigan pull up to the house.

And Craigan acts daddy you know, yeah, and he and he puts his money where his mouth is, you know, or right he goes like on the steakouts.

He could just be behind a desk and he gets out in the field.

And I like that about Craigan.

That's like truthfully currently on the show, that's let live like live.

I don't think ever has to be at a crime scene, and she's at every crime scene like she's at every single one hands on.

So Stabler's about to get out of the car and go check to make everything okay at the house when we hear a gunshot.

They call it in.

They run into the house.

When they get there, they see blood on the kitchen floor.

When they go down to the basement, Sandra is like slumped up on the floor against the wall.

She's got blood all over her face.

She's moaning.

Hank is lying face down looking pretty dead, and Nicki is in the corner holding a gun.

Stabler calmly tells him to drop it.

Obviously, Stabler has a rapport with all angry young men.

He tells him to drop it and the mom he goes Mom let him in and he started beating her up.

I didn't know what else to do.

And that's the end of act three.

Okay, So now top of act four, A lot of action in this act.

Top of act four, Sandra's getting wheeled into an ambulance on a stretcher.

Her face is bloody.

She's like, is my baby okay?

And Nicky's like, I'm sorry, Mom, I love you.

She's giving him nothing, She's giving Nicki nothing back.

It's okay, son, We'll be all right.

I think, honestly, deep down, she's pissed.

You just killed my boyfriend, my husband.

So we see Hank's body in a body bag, so officially he is dead, and Nicki is talking to Stabler and he's like, I'm glad he's dead, and frankly, Nikki same, I think we all feel that way.

And then Nicky starts angrily confessing all these details of the crime to Stabler, like I came up behind him and I just and Stabler's like, shut up, shut the fuck up, don't say anything else to me, don't say anything to anyone without a lay.

This episode is just like every stereotype of Stabler in one like totally breaking rules, trying to be a hero, sneak in some car.

Like the truth, telling the truth on the stand even when he doesn't have to, like I don't know, Like this is.

A Stabler Bingo episode.

Yeah, it really is.

It really fucking is going home to his kids, Kathy looking in on it.

You know, we had, We've got everything.

It's incredible Stabler only getting super invested in a case when it involves anybody that mirrors his own children, you know, so.

Oh so uh.

He tells Nikki shut your fucking damn mouth unless a lawyer tells you to talk.

You hear me?

Do you understand?

And he's like, I understand, and then he gets taken away to the precinct.

But while that combo was going on, we see Hardwick has gotten the attention.

Okay, and like Hardwick again, we've talked about her, the most forgettable.

DA that we have ada we have in SVU history.

She's just so discount bin Cabot, Like it's like you just found an old Cabot in a at the bottom of the bargain basement and you were like, I guess this will work, but it's rude.

But it's like when she talks, it feels like she's auditioning for the part, Like you see her thinking about the lines before she's like they're not in her.

Yeah, and she's flat, Well, we just this actress was just in the episode with the banana up the ass, Remember which one was that that we.

Just did.

The Russia Love Poeck.

Yes, she's in Russian love poem.

She's the one that's like the guy with the banana of the butt.

She was having some to them.

She's like, he knows all the moves.

Like she was better as the horny art lady in that episode.

And then they bring her back to be this da And I don't know.

I think sometimes people think playing it like very neutral deadpan is like the way an eightya would be.

And I think there's just some people better at doing that than others.

And those people are Diane Neil and Stephanie March and Brefael Barba rol as barsa excuse me.

Yeah, So anyway, she gets she doesn't hear anything in the conversation, but she sees that they're having this heated conversation Nicki and Stabler, and we get a little like side eye from her, okay, and the camera is letting us know that she's clocked this conversation and so when she when Stabler walks up to Hardwicke, Melinda, and Craigan, they're all in a huddle.

Melinda's like, well, the stippling indicates that he was shot at point blank range in the back of the head.

I'm ruling it a homicide.

And Hardwick's like, okay, we go in with justifiable and Stabler's like, yeah, Nikki saw Hank beating the mom, got the gun to stuff him from killing her, but not necessarily in that order, says the voice of a random CSU tech.

I've never clocked before, but his.

Name is Adrian Sung, and he's been in seven episodes over the course of The character's name is Adrian Sung.

He's been in seven episodes over the course of seasons twelve and thirteen, but only one that we've covered, So I guess that's why I'm not I haven't really like fully focused on him yet for a recap.

And he found something in the basement that might change the story.

Oh, so they all go down there and the tech does a nice little forensic show and tell in the basement.

He shows them the trajectory of the slug where the slug ends it up and he sprays something on a laser beam to make to show a trajectory like it's very you know, it's very ooh forensic science, and it basically informs that Nikki's too short to have shot Hank if in the back of the head, if Hank was standing up, so he must have been kneeling down at the sink because the bullet was found like underneath the kitchen sink or the basement sink.

I guess we're in a basement, so it's not the kitchen.

But so they're like, oh, so he shot Hank execution style.

He was bent down on the ground and they're like yeah, or Hank was already down there getting something from the cabinet, like maybe this flask that he pulls out.

Song pulls out this little flask.

They're like, Sabler's like, is there a weapon down there?

And he's like, no, no weapon.

So then there was no imminent threat to Nicki's life, Hardwick says, and I'm like, you are such a dumb bitch, Like I don't know.

This kid is a d V victim, Like there's always an imminent threat to his life in his mind, and he's now defied an order of protection from the police, So would you not think, oh my god, this guy could do anything like and now he knows we've gone to the police about him, like he's gonna kill me.

And Stabler's like, did you see the mother's face?

And Craigan goes, well, with this family, let's talk to the mom before we jump to conclusions.

I don't know.

I don't know why anyone is why are we even prosecuting this man?

But anyway, in the hospital, Sandra's in the hospit bed face looking rough, okay, and she's like, what I remember is Hank shows up at the door.

He's begging me.

I can't leave him out in the cold, so I let him in.

As soon as I let him in, he starts beating me up, calling me a no good slut.

Nikki comes running out.

As soon as she starts screaming, Hank throws him to the floor.

And then he just kept kicking me.

And that's all I remember, Like, he's kicking you, and you're pregnant with his child, so you know not that you should kick a non pregnant woman.

But nothing is off limits for this guy, Like he's a psycho.

I mean, I think I mentioned it a few episodes ago.

But like the percentage of women in prison, like I think it's the percentage is so hide people that just killed their abusers.

Yeah, I just don't think it should even be honishable.

No, But like if the police and justice system don't stop the domestic violence and don't care about victims, that means they relate to the perpetrators, which means they're more sympathetic to them.

And I saw I keep I've seen this a couple of times, this interview with this woman who went to jail because she killed her abuser and he was in the straw that broke the camel's back for her was when he started hitting her kids and she killed him and she was in jail and she's like, honestly, in here, I'm safe and I've learned a trade, and I you know.

Now she said the first time she felt free as prison, Like she went to prison to feel free because that's how awful she felt, this abusive relationship.

It's like crazy, it's it's it's but.

It's what we talked about this with the Eileen Werno's case to where it's or maybe we didn't, but it's like if people are against type, we expect men to be monsters or whatnot, and so like then when a woman does it, you punish.

It's like it's when people go, well, women could be worse, I'm like, could they?

Well, it's like when we did the episode, the Whoopi Goldberg episode and the woman whose husband killed her child got less time than she did for not stopping it.

Yep.

Yeah, Like women are not allowed to be like.

The bad guys.

So that's all she remembers.

Okay, she did not see Nicki shoot Hank, she says, and then Hardwick is like, well the evidence doesn't suggest self defense, and Sandra goes you saying you don't believe Nicki, and Hardwick has the stupidest face on, like like I know you guys can't see me.

It's a podcast.

But she's like, go back and freeze on that face, like the face, it's the worst face, and they hang on it.

The camera hangs on it for like a second too long.

It made me want to punch her.

And now Drea de Matteo summons all of her sopranos' powers and she sits up in her hospital bed and goes the only reason Hank got close to my house is because your cops took off and now you're accusing my boy of lying.

And then it's kind of like yeah, tea, you know, like she's right, and then she tells them do not go near Nicki.

So outside the hospital room, Sabler is getting into it with Hardwick.

He's like nice bedside manner, and she's like, I want the truth and she's like, what was that conversation that you had with Nikki by the ambulance when Hank went buying the body bag.

And Stabler like is like pissed.

He's like, listen, this guy violated a protection order and Hardwick is arguing, yeah, but he wasn't threatening anyone when he was on his knees and that kid blew his brains out, so and again I'm like, is.

She fucking kidding me?

Like this is basically like if you're in the middle of a home invasion and the guy who's invading your house and has tied you up stops to eat a sandwich, are you not allowed to break free.

And shoot him?

Like just because he stopped to go get alcohol, you think that the behavior was gonna get nicer when he got his flat, was like things were going to improve once he got some booze in his system, Like, I just think this woman is such a dumb bitch.

This doesn't feel like I'm like, send her a pair of our dumb bitch socks, like you're not going to convince a jury that, like he didn't think he was in danger just because he didn't shoot the guy as he was coming toward him with a raised fist, like he's thirteen years old.

And then she goes, he's thirteen, I can try him as an adult, and okay, I'm like, and why do you want to do that?

He's an abused boy, Like wouldn't you try to move it to family court even if it was on purpose, like even if it was like wow, he really did say yes, I plotted this for days.

But he's thirteen years old and like an abuse victim.

And Stabler's like, oh, so you can parade him into the court and win points with the DA And she tells him, do your job, arrest Nikki for second Drea murder and he goes, do it yourself and he walks away, which I love.

Now we're at the precinct, Stabler's looking over the case on the blackboard, of course, and Live is back and she's like, wow, I was in court all day and you're the one pissing off lawyers.

And he's like, oh, you talk to Hardwick And this idiot called Benson to see if she would maybe get some info out of Stabler about the conversation with Niki, and it's like, wow, you're even dumber than I thought you were.

Benson obviously tells her to shove it.

Benson and Stabler talk about the Nicky situation and Benson tells him you didn't do anything wrong, and Sailor goes, we'll tell me that tomorrow.

And he's like, I really don't want to arrest Nikki and Benson goes, so fight fire with fire?

What does that mean?

We'll find out after this commercial break.

So no.

Now we're talking to Sandra in cement room bars and she's like, you cannot talk to Nicki and Hardwick goes, he's a miner, so you have to be present when I mirandized him.

And I'm like in my head, going, okay, so he's a miner.

He cannot be mirandized without a parent, but he can be tried as an adult, Like what what is this system here?

Like if he's a little baby that needs to have a parent with him to get his Miranda rights.

Then that's how you have to try him at court too.

So Nicki comes into the room, he runs to his mom.

They're hugging.

Hardwick immediately starts the Miranda rights, and right as she says, if you give up that right, we hear, Oh he's not an in strolls absolute icon of cinema and my life, Olympia du Caucus with a perfectly smooth silver sus Ormon haircut.

She is a vision.

I love Olympia du Caucus.

I don't know if you have a relationship with her.

She shares mother in Moonstruck.

She's a main character in Steel Magnolius.

Her relationship with Shirley McClain's character in Steel Magnolia is one of my favorites.

Weeza and I forgot.

I honestly forget what Olympia's character's name is because Wesa is so iconic too.

But I love Olympia to Caucus.

She just passed into twenty twenty one, and I just like love her so much.

I think she's the Bee's fucking knees.

And uh, Sandra doesn't know who this brad is?

When she walks in, she says she's Debbie Marsh and she goes.

Stabler says, you need a lawyer, and Sandra goes, well, I can't afford you.

She just looks her up and down and is like, whatever this is, I can't afford it.

She's like, you are not a public defender, and she goes, it's on the house.

And then she goes to Hardwick proud of yourself charging a battered kid with murder two and she goes, I'm more than open to a deal, and Olympia Doucoccus goes, well, I'm.

Not and just go the fuck off.

I love her so much.

She's like, no jury's gonna convict this kid once they hear what this like monster did to him.

So now we're in court, and I love that they got to Olpia du Caucus, but they probably could only get her for like a day of shooting.

So she's only really in this last bit, right.

So now we're in court and Debbie's got Stabler on the stand and he's describing Nicky's state of mind the night of the murder, what happened.

Stabler's like, I believe him that, you know he was scared and he thought that there was.

A threat on his life.

And now Hardwick it's her turn.

She asked Stabler, what did you and Nicky say in this private conversation that I witnessed and Olympia Debbie argues, this is inadmissible, like, you know, he's a minor, he had not been mirandized.

And Hardwick is trying to say that it's a spontaneous utterance.

The law is so weird, isn't it so weird that if you I don't even know that well, you know how, like you can't interrogate somebody without a lawyer.

But if you get to a crime.

Scene and somebody goes, I did it, I killed him, that counts as a spontaneous utterance even though their lawyer wasn't there.

It is just a weird caveat we've carved into the law, like if you're keyed up when you say something, it's out.

But if you were calm, like it's in, you know, but if you were calm when you said it, we can't use it.

Like I don't.

It's it's so funny to me.

But Debbie argues, like, yeah, this is a kid, and the judge is not buying it.

I think this is the judge who had the dolphin porn on his computer, but I can't remember exactly.

I tried to look it up, but I didn't have time.

And then he overrules the objection and orders Stabler to answer the question.

Why can't Stabler just lie?

Nobody knows what was said between them?

He could have just said that, then Stabler wouldn't be Stabler.

I know, I know, but it's like this poor fucking beaten up kid, Like, couldn't you just say no, one knows except for you, Like you could just say he just was rambling.

I couldn't really make a lot out of what he was saying.

It was a lot about what, you know, how his dad was hurting him.

You know.

I think this was the judge that has the championship roses.

No, it's not.

It's not no different judge.

I think this is dolphin porn judge.

I thought it was older.

I thought that wasn't an older guy.

I thought it was like, who's the main one, who's the main We need to make a fucking full roster of all the judges.

But this is judge Walter Bradley.

He's in.

Oh my god, he's in so many episodes.

Wait, there's an SVU episode called Hubris.

I think that might be from a different The way you say franchise is hard for me.

What Hubris?

Yeah, that's how you say it.

I know I've been saying it wrong and it makes me uncomfortable to hear you say it.

Oh, how do you say it Hubris?

Oh?

Hugh, I think you can say Hubris too, right.

I don't know.

I don't really use that word much.

No, I said it a lot.

I said it today in one of our interviews.

I did, right.

I don't.

I don't say it a lot, but I I did learn it in high school.

It was a part of my vocab.

Oh no, sorry, Yeah, Hubris is a Law and Order regular.

So this guy goes across, he goes across both both things.

He was in the episode.

Can I remember the dolphin thing being like, oh, I fucked up my Matt?

Like, but maybe this guy has.

Been older we have to Yeah, we can move on, but we'll figure it out before the post mortem.

Yeah, poison retro.

Yeah, he's been in a lot anyway.

Anyway, we'll figure it out for you, guys, don't worry.

Keep listening.

Yeah, listening.

Wait, have you seen the post?

If you're in line to suck, If you're in line to suck Bill Clinton's dick, stay line.

So you know, I hate the Internet in a lot of ways, but it's so it brings me so many laughs.

People are so funny.

What in ancient times we couldn't spread humor to each other at this rate?

It was just it's too good, all right.

So Stabler can't just lie.

He tells the court that Nikki said he was glad his stepdad was dead and that he deserved to die for what he did to his mom.

So uh, I'm like, okay, So he's in shock, Like, I don't see how that's a smoking guy either, And they also say what did he yell?

And he goes, he yelled I put the gun to his head again, So what, Like, I still don't buy how any of this is not excusable by being a traumatized victim.

And outside the courthouse now, Stabler rolls up on Sandra, who's just having a little pregnancy smoke and she go he goes, are you smoking?

Are you kidding me?

And he goes, you ever stop being a cop, And it's like, I don't think he cares about smoking in general.

But go he goes, I'll stop becoming a cop once you start being a mother.

He goes, You're on the stand in ten minutes.

And she's like, I can't do it, and he's like, you have to.

Nicky needs you, and she goes, you know the night that Hank was hitting NICKI in the shoulder, I watched him do it.

I felt every punch and I knew where he had his gun, and I wanted to go get it, but I didn't.

I didn't do a damn thing.

And now I have to go what go admit to this jury what a shitty mom I've been.

And it's like, yeah, that's the fucking least you could do, babe.

At this point, like I do believe she's a victim as well, but it's like, you don't need to not go on trial for your son.

And then Stabler goes, this isn't about you, it's about Nicky, and she goes, you really think I don't give a crap about him, and Sablor goes, no, I think you're a battered woman who doesn't know where to turn.

And she's like, Hank paid the bills, he fixed the house, he put food on the table, he kept everything under control.

What am I going to do without him now?

And he's like, well, now you're in control, and you have to protect your son, and it might be your last chance to fucking do it, so get your ass on the stand.

So now she's on the stand and Hank said, she's reporting that.

Hank said he was going to make me pay for ratting him out to the cops while and then he started beating me in the kitchen, and I was like, I could never be on this jury because I'd be like, anyone is allowed to kill this man, Like anyone on the street can kill this man, Like I don't care, you know, Like, and I don't think it'd be fun to uh be on a jury with yeah, Like I would try to be the foreman, I think, right, and then he would never let me sit on it.

But I never getting on a journey for I think we're never getting on a jury for the rest of our lives because we have.

But did you I think see the clip where Reese Witherspoon did an interview and she would serve jury duty and they made her the foreman because of legally blonde and she had to be like you, I'm not a lawyer, and they're like, you do it and they made.

Reese do it.

You went to Harvard Law.

Yeah, wow, that's crazy.

I never heard that.

That's wild.

Oh my god, I'm so.

Surpri Okay, whatever, I I just you and I will never if they ask us, like, do you watch do you know anything about the law?

They want people that are interested in the law and know about it, like I don't.

I don't think they want people that think they know a lot about the law because they've watched like TV shows and because we've like actually researched some laws.

Like I don't think they want people like that, like at all.

But Debbie asks her what happened next, and Sandra gets distracted.

She goes, I want to say something, and the judge is like, answer the question, and then she goes, I never thought you'd go after NICKI and I can't let him go to prison for something that I did.

It was me I killed Hank.

And then Nicky stands up and goes, mom, no, this is twist I didn't see coming and I didn't realize that this is the exact plot of the ballot of Dwight and Arena the other episode that we've done with where Ricky Lindholm was Our guests like, it's the same plot.

It's like abusive dad beating up a step son beating up a wife.

One of them kills him, and we don't really know which one because they're going to play a sort of mistrial strategy on each other and causing reasonable doubt.

So my first thought is okay, Like when they have tested for gunshot residue on both of their hands, like, I'm always looking for the holes, you know, And the judge tells her like, Sandra, you are confessing to crime, to a crime of murder in open court.

You have the right to remain silent.

She's like, I don't want to remain silent.

He was beating me.

He was going to kill both of us.

I went and found his gun, and when he was by the work bench, I guess it wasn't a sink.

It was like a work bench.

It looked like a sink to me, but it was dark.

She goes, when he was at the work bench, I stuck up behind him and I blew the bastard's brains out.

And Nicki's like, don't listen to her.

She's lying to save me.

I did it, and then she's like, no, I did it, and she's crying.

The judge calls a recess.

I don't know what else you can do, and then Hardwick turns to Stabler in a callback to his earlier comment and goes, my parade just became a circus.

And now we're back with Sung, this technician and he's showing Hardwick and Stabler one of those top of the line animated videos that the NYPD makes to show how like crime scenes can play out, and he's like, look, it's plausible that Sandra shot Hank NICKI came and took the gun out of her hands, and she ended up across the room, which is why we never suspected her.

And I'm like, because she was across the room, what like, she was all the way ten.

Feet away from where it happened.

We didn't think it could have been her like, and then he goes, then that's why we never tested her clothes.

Again, this feels like it all police work could.

Have been done.

And then so they end up they do test her clothes now, which I guess haven't been washed or maybe the hospital has them.

So chain of custody has been maintained her turtle was saturated with gunshot residue and fine blood spatter particulate.

So they're like, oh, okay, so Nicki didn't kill him, it was her and Song.

Yeah.

Do you think if I was on jury duty selection and I said, what was that word?

You just said?

Particulate but blood spatter particulate?

Yeah?

Do you think if I said that then let me stay I'm pretty interested in blood spatter.

Yeah, particulate.

Yeah.

So Song is like, I can't actually testify to that because Niki also had gunshot residue and spatter on him, So either one of them could have shot Hank with the other close by.

So it's the twins.

It's the twins if you can't, Yeah.

It's the twins from identity.

I mean.

The thing is, though, it's like, I really do feel like the gunshot residue is more apparent on the person who shot the shot.

So if they swab Nicki's hands and he didn't really have it on his hands, but he had it on him and she did it, I don't know.

It feels like this could have been solved with forensics, but they're acting like it was so forensically perfectly set up that either ononer of them could be it, and Hardwick goes, I'm screwed, aren't I?

And Sabler goes, now you know how they felt?

Give it to her?

And like, I know.

Justice is blind, but I honestly don't even understand why we prosecute crimes like this, Like when someone has like the fucking record of just like abuse and there's a testimony and evidence of someone just being an abusive asshole, and we're like, let's spend tax payer money to put the person who murdered them to jail.

I don't get it, Like I really don't, But I understand that that's like not how the system works, and we have to do it that way.

But I think there should be some cases where it's just like, oh, this monster, Like, yeah, I don't, we don't have to do it.

Like if they like found evidence of like who killed Epstein in jail, it was like another inmate, we're not prosecuting.

I don't, We're not doing it.

Was I that was a job, of course, of course, of course, but that just came to mind as another bad person.

So next scene, next and final scene, NICKI said on everybody's lips, is gonna be Epstein Epstein.

Sorry I did that.

It just really came over me like a and you guys are gonna see it soon.

But we did have a guest ask us, have you guys ever seen Chicago the musical?

What a laugh?

What a laugh we had?

Not only do we see I think I like quote it once a day.

So in then the last scene, Nicki and Sandra have been upgraded to wood room blinds.

Okay, Stabler and Hardwick tell them listen, neither of you is being charged with Hank's murder.

That's why your lawyer's not here.

But we just have this thing where we gotta know, So can you tell us what happened?

One of you pulled the trigger, one of you tried to knock the gun away.

I promise no one will prosecute you.

So which one was it?

And they both say I did in unison And they're so right.

Don't trust this dumb strawberry blonde bitch.

She's not gonna help you like she could.

Absolutely.

She just goes, you have.

My w because it wasn't double jeopardy, it wasn't thrown out yet, Like you can't fucking do that shit.

No, if she found out the truth.

I could see this woman going and trying to find more evidence that supports the truth and then taking it back to trial.

What I don't think happened is that I think Nicki did it and she tried to stop because I think if Sandra was gonna shoot him, Nicky wouldn't have tried to stop it.

So why would there be gunshot residue on him?

But that's my personal theory.

Who cares.

They're they're free to go.

They both walk out hugging in and hopefully maybe she stays celibate for a little bit.

No dating, No dating, Yeah, no dating?

Why therapy?

He said, she works crazy hours, work your job, put food on the table for you and your kid.

Let's leave it, you know, like, let's do it, like whatever I feel.

Whatever.

So Hardwick says we're never going to know which one of them did it, and Sabler goes, does it matter?

And that's dick wolf Baby.

They're happy another abuse user is dead and that his buddy Nikki is not going to jail.

Yeah, all right, take me to the modern fight Club, Lisa.

Listen, this is one of those where, like even on the Wick, it's like inspired by the fight club phenomenon caused by the book and film, and it's like I don't know, I don't buy it, but yeah, because but maybe I do whatever.

But we're fight club's the thing before the fight club.

Like I don't know, I don't know, like we're people fighting.

I think people.

Definitely did like boxing clubs and shit like that, but we're boxing clubs.

That's what's Yeah, Well, I just think this movie made it that.

It's like you're hitting to like feel something, right, Like aren't you hitting to like aren't you in this fight club to like feel like a man and act like a man?

Yeah, it's like the malaise of consumerism and like you know, all of that.

And then it's like, yeah, men don't get out there and hunt and gather anymore or whatever.

They're stopping you.

I don't understand.

Always, oh we can't do what you go go gather, go hunt.

Yeah I could see though, people, I mean the whole stopping guy Bottoms has a bunch of girls starting a fight Bottoms.

I can't believe I forgot about that.

Yeah, I just feel like outside of violence and rape, like if you're a dude, do whatever you want, go do what anything?

Else you want.

We're not stopping you.

The only thing we.

Don't want is just like, uh, we just want to be able to like choose our future.

Like I don't understan, I don't understand.

Well, there was another thing online where it's like men suffer in silence, and it's like, well, then why am I hearing about it?

Yeah, I'm hearing quiet.

Yeah it's not very silent or the cool.

Yeah, I just I have to get off the internet.

I just beacon memes.

Ah, the male loneliness epidemic is not being solved by a fight club.

Well, it's like men can't cry, and it's like, well, men shouldn't hit women, but you guys found a way.

I don't know, like figure it out.

Go cry and men can cry.

Nobody said they can't.

Come on, Well, they're just trying to back the only person says men can't cry or other men.

Well, and there are true there are women that are for it, and these guys want to fuck these women.

Yeah, and sometimes you do what you gotta do to fuck the women that you want to fuck, and some of them don't want you cry.

I'm thinking about the movie Don John where Scarlet Johanson's like, don't you fucking clean your own apartment?

It's like what, But you do what you have to do if Scarjoe tells you to.

Yeah, all right.

So we're in Indio, California, and the La Times reported in two thousand and six.

Guess how I read this article.

I got into the La Times.

I copied everything and was able to paste it into a Google doc because I.

Will not pay for the La Times.

Yes, so I quickly and I found a new hopper.

I know.

Everyone always is so kind and sends me so many things to help me, and I am just gonna try to race the time and copy and paste full articles and ads.

So yeah.

Two thousand and six, A boy dies in a fight club, sixteen years old, Jefferson Pittner.

He collapsed after fighting in three boxing matches in Palm Desert Park and it was boxing, and like the one in Minnesota I cover later, also boxing gloves, Like a lot of these boys were wearing boxing gloves, so it's not like they were like trying to murder each other, I don't think.

After collapsing, the other teenagers called nine to one one immediately, According to Sergeant Earl Quinata, who is a spokesperson for the Sheriff's office.

This young boy died of head injuries just before eleven pm.

There were eleven boys that were part of the club that were questioned, and it wasn't really a popular thing.

It's not like the whole neighborhood was like look at those cool guys.

They'd just been doing it for a few years.

And like I said, it was with boxing gloves.

It was treated like a homicide.

But I couldn't find any charges being filed.

Okay, so maybe they investigated and then like kind of.

Weren't able to charge anybody.

Yeah.

I mean also like, was there any bedding going on in this?

No?

No, was it just this something It's like fight thought the movie had nothing to do with making any money off of it, right, Like, well, and it wasn't children, I guess, right, I don't.

To me, this feels like it's a combo of the fight club thing and the dog fighting thing, like the dog fighting scandal had happened like in the early two thousands with Michael Vick.

Right I recovered the VIC case.

No, No, I feel like it's just like dog fighting is in people's minds and the SPU is probably always like, how do I turn something into something that's kids?

And it's like, oh, these fight clubs are happening, and so they like combo it, you know what I mean?

Yeah, and it could like when I was growing up, people were backyard wrestling, you know, I just think there.

And when I was in high school, I was doing jackass stuff.

I was definitely out there.

I was definitely doing things with mouse traps and hills and like I was doing stuff I love jackass.

I was like jumping onto Christmas blow up decoration.

Like, so kids do stupid things I don't and and don't care about their bodily harm unfortunately, because you know we covered that kid.

What's the episode with the the light bulb that severed the carotid artery on the thigh?

Is the thigh the karateid?

What's the thigh?

And the girl sounds like this thigh is?

But what there was an episode Oh yes with the fighting.

Yes there was another fighting and the girls.

Yeah, she had her wired shut.

And also like beef was the episode right before the season right before this, Yes, and in beef cockfighting, Like there's cock fighting.

So it's like there are people trying to like make money off of fights, and I feel like s V was like, let's just throw kids in the ring, which is I've up, I do.

Like a boxing mac share in there, but I'm really not into violence.

Yeah, so twenty eleven.

This this also so the episode came out in twenty eleven as well, So this could be you know, something that Neil Bear caught while reading the paper.

But Naperville a suburb of Chicago.

It is a bunch of boys aged eleven to thirteen, and they were meeting in the school locker room and it was voluntary, but a fight club.

It's not like they were like forcing kids to do it.

One of the students videotaping of course, of course, and the rule was no face hitting, and they had code words.

So I'm like, these boys are doing a pretty responsible fight club if you ask me.

Yeah, no face hitting, yeah, because then there's no The boys were disciplined in the school and then.

That was it.

Yeah.

And again, we can't really know that any of these were inspired, like the show is inspired by any of these, But I just looked at some fight clubs from before twenty eleven.

So March twenty six, two thousand and six, during a lunch break, in Junction City, organ teens were pummeling each other for sport while their friends cheered them on, and of course videotaped it.

And everyone keeps blaming Fight Club.

But again, I just don't know.

I think it's like a Marilyn Manson video game thing, or maybe they wouldn't have thought about it.

But this is also the movie six years after the movie came out.

But I guess that's the popularity of the DVD of it all.

I don't know.

This is a very loose one.

I would say this is yeah, yes, it's closer to our loose episode.

A loose episode, okay.

So then there's a New York Post article okay, twenty ten.

Also, if any of you got the New York Post communist mom Donnie Cover, you.

Could ship it to me.

I want it.

Oh, I want to frame it.

Okay.

So this is in Queen's elementary school.

A dad hurt.

I mean, this could be the Cloe.

This could actually be it because of the New York connection.

Maybe a dad.

Hurt his kid complaining he didn't get enough applause during his fight.

So the dad's like, what fight, what the fuck are you talking about?

Grilled him, found out his fourth grade teacher set up the fight.

So the fourth grade teacher's name is Joseph Galata, and he and so basically this kid was supposed to fight another kid that he was mad at.

But the teacher goes, no, I like that kid, fight this kid instead.

I don't like him as much, And so he kind of like encouraged him to fight this other kid.

He closed the classroom door and got the classmates to cheer around them.

The teacher used the quote from the movie to shut them up, like, don't talk about fight club, and he instructed the kids to lie to the nurse about their injuries.

Now the cops recalled.

The teacher was arrested along with his para professional, Abraham Fox, and they were charged with acting in a manner injurious I'm gonna name my dog in Jurius to a child under seventeen.

There was also complaints that he was showing students inappropriate sexual photos of girls and women in bathing suits and sometimes would place hands on butts.

So not great.

The men, though, were both acquitted of the charges.

They were acquitted and then the parents sued Galata, and then Galatta asked the school for a lawyer because of an education law section three zero two eight and municipal law section fifty dash K.

But those requests were denied and so he ended up suing the school board because they wouldn't pay for his lawyer.

And it was granted and the board had to pay for all his attorney's fees and expenses.

What that's crazy.

Yeah, And then May fifth, twenty thirteen, the school board Disciplinary Hearing issued a decision that the teacher did not encourage or direct the fighting, but find him twenty grand for at least not being on top of it or ending the fight sooner.

Like the Marshawn Lynch character in Bottoms, When is his next vehicle?

I need?

But in two thousand and eight, there's a Boulder, Colorado fight club fifteen to twenty students reported by the Denver Post videotaped.

I guess that's against the number one rule of the fight clubs.

But like they are all.

Videotaping, stop videotaping it.

But they were like they didn't they couldn't figure out this was a one time deal or they were constantly doing it.

Like why an article like no one gives it likes?

And but the month prior another like another high school in the district, were cited for public brawling.

But I think that's just what people do.

It's upsetting, honestly.

I don't like violence.

But like unless the kid dies, who care?

Or permanent damage?

Who cares?

I don't know.

Yeah, a Deluthe paper said they brought up a great point.

There was a they said, if tans are willingly engaging in fistfights and taping them willingly, what's the crime.

Yeah, But in Monticello, Minnesota, sixteen year old boy was treated for facial injuries after fighting in a gravel pit behind a Walmart.

I don't know.

Oh well, I mean, like, I don't know.

I guess it's better than beating kids up that don't want to be beat up.

Is like doing it with a consent, a consenting other kid.

I mean, I feel like, what do you feel?

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't think this was I don't think that anything like the actual episode was happening at least in the United States at all.

Or it's underground.

It's like an Epstein thing.

Oh yeah, oh that's yeah.

Like in Thailand, I think they have like young kids Domi Thai and stuff to like, but that's training, and it's a trained Yeah, I don't know, it's not it's not.

I don't think there's anything quite like this.

This is so diabolical and crazy, and like I just wonder what the uncle Joe thought he was getting out of it.

Did he think that he was really teaching his kids to defend it, like his nephew to defend his bully, or was he like, do you really think that little kid Ethan was good?

Like the nine year old was gonna make him some money in the ring.

I don't know, I guess now just thinking this isn't children, But I think of the movie Django Unchained, and I wonder if like this could have been something with enslaved populations or groups that are dehumanized within and.

Going all the way back to the ancient Romans, like what happened in the Colisseum.

You know.

Yeah, but okay, so you know, outside of the fight Club's you know, the big thing now with in Cell red Pill cultural of that is like people didn't realize that fight Club was satire, which we talked about, and it was supposed to be a warning and it all did come true, but it was a warning.

But men look up to this movie.

The New Yorker wrote, the movie has become part of the contemporary mass cultural canon through which large numbers of men tried to think through masculinity.

Peter C.

Baker, who wrote this New Yorker piece, he said that like he went to all the message boards and alt right in cell groups, and they love Tyler Durdan.

They see him as an alpha male who does what he wants and doesn't let anyone stand in his way.

And it's like, okay, but he was like in a dirty tub in a warehouse, Like I don't it's not like it was a great life, but like, no one's standing in your way to go be in a dirty tub.

But he's not real, and he is a figment of a man's imagination.

Yeah, that's the thing.

But their whole thing is like stop being a beta white caller Ed Norton, Like Ed is miserable, like you gotta be Tyler.

But Norton kills Tyler in the end.

So it's a critique of Tyler Jrton in his way of like if you know what I mean, he.

Like fucking shoots himself.

And it's also like about waking up and being empowered and authentic.

But Tyler then demands subservience from these men he claims to be.

So that's another thing, and I see that all the time with the men in the podcast the Rogue at all of that, Like a lot of these alpha male want wanna beers or like cooks to the podcasts and like the tapes that they listen to.

So it's like Tyler Dirton is like, be yourself, be authentic, like live freedom.

And then like none of.

These boys are marching, you know what I mean, Like they have no freedom.

They're doing whatever this man says.

So that doesn't make sense to me either.

But then this journalist met with fight club heads and they all relate to feeling aimless, no passion, just working to have things.

But then it's like, okay, and this is what I like, This is like the most important I think.

Why do these stories of men finding joy have to inflict pain on others?

Is there not a journey for men that isn't violence and being awful to other people?

And that is something I'm like really thinking about where it's like so much of masculinity is the subjugation of women, and it's like can you not find freedom?

Enjoy without like making other people's lives awful.

You can, that's the easy way.

That's the easier way.

To just find who you think is weaker and subjugate them is the is the easier sort of uh people are way of doing it.

There's plenty of men that are happy in the world, feel happy and liberated and are in good relationships and not hurting people.

But these guys are like, I know a great way to get to it.

Like Hank in this episode.

That's a fucking guy who thinks he's like the top dog guy and no one's gonna take what's mine and I'll show you what I'll show you what I got, you know, like yeah, fucking fight clubbing little kids, fifth graders.

And that's another thing.

This journalist is like this or maybe this movie only has one female character and she's treated like shit, and all these dudes are like, Tyler is the way to live and they're like, yeah, he's truly like using her for sex then emotionally like being negligent in the day, treating her awful, and guys are like, we love this, Yeah, we love this movie.

It's like one girl they were gonna Courtney Love was dating at Norton at the time, and she was supposed to do this, and Fincher went, no, I want against type, and he fought to have Helena.

I love Helena Bottom Carter, me too.

She seems fun as fuck.

Yeah, I've always loved her.

But then David Fincher is quoted in the Huffington Post and it says he's fun.

It's impossible for me to imagine that people don't understand that Tyler Dirdan is a negative influence.

I think it's funny.

And then Fincher to The New York Times said women maybe get the humor faster.

Young female audiences seem to appreciate the film's satirical spin on macho posturing.

And I felt pretty good about myself when I read that.

But yeah, I also just thought they were hot, like I was young, you know.

No, it was, and it was.

It was a cool movie.

But hopefully nobody's really doing fight clubs.

I mean, there's another episode that we're going to do in the future.

I'm sure that I just caught, like in a hotel recently, of the woman that comes home from like being in the military and she's like in a fight club that she goes to to like but she just goes to like win, but like fights and she fights other people and like she's super strong, and then she gets attacked leaving one of the meetings at night.

But I think, like, because she's from the she has like trauma from the military, and I think just fighting makes her feel alive or something.

I don't know, I forgot the actual it's a more it's a teen season like skydiving.

I guess fighting is.

Maybe this is all about class consciousness.

Yeah, at the end of the day, fight club is probably cheaper.

But yeah, so I'm sorry this wasn't hardcore true crime, and I think it's close, but it's close interesting enough.

Influence what influences the culture.

And I guess Finscher said to brad Pitt because because it got panned and like, you know, know it didn't do good number why or whatever.

And brad Pitt went to Fincher was like, this is the best thing I've ever made.

I don't give a fuck how it does.

But then Fincher goes, I'm here to make movies that are gonna last for twenty years.

I don't care what happens now.

And he's really been able to do that a lot.

I think if you watch Fight Club, it's like, fuck, like he was right about Ever, it's worse than Ever, like yeah, yeah, but his movies do last.

Yeah, And if that's his goal, he's done it.

I don't know whose goal is.

I want to one and done, but like my goal is to make a movie that pops with an audience now and then has forgotten forever and no one.

I also understand like attaching yourself for being interested in the anti capitalists, like anti buying stuff, anti doing things you don't love.

But again, I don't know if being violent in the basement.

Of a of a liquor store or something is yeah, yeah to.

Do, Like I guess what I feel sad for not to like be sad for a but it's like they can't because of their lack of wanting to appreciate or like be in touch with femininity or women, Like they're missing out on like a really joyous, great life, Like they can do better than fighting each other and being angry and like doing what you know, all this fucked Like they have the world, like the world is here.

To bring you joy.

Yeah, And it's sad when you think your only option is like to be a fighting cook for people that don't even think about you.

The male loneliness epidemic persists.

I don't know how we're going to stop it.

But yeah, so if I cold was So that's the question, like did it predict it or did it help cause it?

You know?

But I think it was like he probably saw this predictive because Chuck is like a gay dude.

I mean that wrote the book.

So I feel like he was making a comment.

All right, well, we have a great interview coming.

Trying to think what the other books are called.

It was like Invisible Monsters was one that one I'm gonna I mean, I think Jared's read a bunch of his stuff and said it's great too.

Yeah, I mean it's it's like the R.

L.

Stein if you're a little older, like he's bumped for a little older.

Yeah, like that's how I felt.

I felt really cool.

Oh yeah, Invisible Monsters Haunted.

I read Survivor, I read Snuff, I read Lallah Bye, I read multiple times.

I have rant I don't think I read it though in a book.

I read a loud fight Club.

Yeah, I think I read all of his books.

This is crazy, damn Is he still alive.

Yeah, he's alive.

He's alive.

Annoyed, well, he because he had a day job when he even wrote Fight Club, like he didn't.

Yeah, I think for his book was seven thousand dollars.

Whoa, Yeah, that's like crazy, that's nothing.

The numbers aren't even that different today.

Like I know, all right, let's get going to our guests because we've got a good guest for you today.

Hold on to your butts.

Okay, this guest what Aget.

We've been wanting to get her since the beginning.

She is an actress, a legend who has been in movies like Sudden Impact and Doubt.

She has worked with some of the greatest greats in the business.

She was featured in the show, not necessarily the news, but you know her best as Judge Louise Lewis Lewis Lois Preston.

Please enjoy our chat with the iconic Audrey Ninan.

Hi.

We're so thrilled.

We're thrilled.

Hill, I'm so happy.

Thank you for asking.

This is huge for us.

Listen, first thing we have to tell you is I'm Kara.

This is Lisa.

Lisa sometimes has a little bit of mispronunciation, of things once in a while on the podcast, and whenever your character comes on, I have a lot of struggle with your name, a lot of struggles.

She'll call your character Louise Lewis all these different things, and it's become this running joke on the podcast.

And so we did recently order merch that it says Louise Lewis Lewis.

Oh my god, I love that, Oh my god.

And it's all based on your character.

Yeah, so we needed you.

So no, we're wearing them right now.

Oh I wish I could sign it for you.

Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh.

Collectors.

So we are.

Yeah, you are the honorable Judge Lois Preston.

This is amazing.

You're the first recording judge we've talked to because we did teach We did talk to Tom Scarett, who was an evil judge, and you were in that episode.

You were in the Tom Scared episode.

Yeah, where he was the corrupt judge.

Yeah.

Yes, there were some very you know, come and go and in fact, in the episode that you're talking about pop there was Olympiad caucus.

Yes, well I was not the judge when she was in the courtroom, but she was there on the set, and I was just like, you know, I got for clumped.

I cried, I couldn't say anything.

And I finally it was like dinner time or something, and I sat down with her at a table and I just went, hello, how do you do?

I'm the judge in another section of this How do you do?

She said?

She finished her meal and she left.

She was working.

Yeah, you know what I mean, she was already, she was in, she was working.

I could tell she was, so I didn't bother her the whole meal.

I just kind of, yeah, Olympia du Caucus seemed like she didn't take any nonsense from anybody.

No, you know, I know, well, and it wasn't.

She wasn't being rude, and no, yeah, she's working, you know what I mean.

And I sat down and then I just kind of gazed at her working.

Why she ate, which was the mustard made her feel very uncomfortable.

I look back at the people I've worked with, and you know, people say, what Clint East would really like, you know, and I go, he's exactly who you think he is.

He is exactly what except for the you know, the clown shoes and the big red nose that he wears to the set.

You know, that's that's nothing.

You know, No, he doesn't.

He's exactly who you think he is, you know, but famous people.

Robin Williams did one of the shows, yeah, you know, and I was the judge on that one.

Yeah, and we go way back.

I worked with Robin and the Comedy Store Players out in la in nineteen eighty, nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty.

Yeah, he was doing morecan mindy and or he had just gotten it, But anyway, he would been with the Comedy Store Players and a couple of us from Chicago.

You came from Chicago too, didn't you.

Yeah?

I grew up He's Inkchi and then I started comedy everything in Chicago.

Did you ever do Second City?

Did you ever go there?

I take any classes, but then once I found stand up, I stopped going to class.

I really enjoyed my my nighttime gremlin lifestyle, so I stopped.

Well, it's also a real choice, isn't a stand up or Second City?

Because I mean second city you're working with a lot of other people and you're dependent on them for the yes, and you know what I mean, if you're up there on your own you got to do that, yes, and yourself you got to keep that ball absolutely.

Yeah, and you two.

That's so different, isn't it?

It is it is.

I felt like improv was positive.

It was like we got you, I got your back, We're here.

And then stand ups were a little more darker, and I kind of gravit stated towards that under.

Yeah, how long were you in Chicago?

Oh?

For years and years.

I graduated from Barrack College up in Lake Forest, Illinois at north to Chicago, and we had been to Second City, but you know, during college years.

So I said, yeah, that's where I'm going.

I want to go there, And.

Yeah, I was there for only really for like seven years before I moved to LA for like a decade and then came back to New York because a girl broker leg and I had to open on Broadway, you know what I mean.

And it was I really I've had one of those type of experiences.

And no, I didn't do LA until after I did Broadway.

And then then I got noticed by somebody there when I did Broadway and they said, come to LA and do not necessarily the news and that was another comedy show.

Wow.

Yeah, And we did the Comedy Zone up in Canada and that and no, no, we did the Comedy Zone in New York.

That was with New York Playwrights and Jerry Gutierres was the New York direct and we did scenes and that was a CBS series.

But it only lasted like six months.

You know, So comedy doesn't last, right.

It's always a hustle, that's for sure.

Do you have any other like any other people where you got to set at SVU and you were like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're going to be in my courtroom today.

Because what's cool about being the judge is you get to see the guest stars, the victims, the villains, all the different ways, all the detectives, all the back everybody.

I get everybody, and at the gang from SVU was always very cool with me.

They would come up.

Well.

I had a thing also to get people to come up to the desk.

Came up, come up to the bench.

But I would take in chocolate covered espresso beans.

Oh my god, cute.

Yeah, the worst, like a charm.

Because everything is going on around you as the judge, everything is going on out there, okay, and you're just sitting here.

The cameras are all facing everybody else.

They're facing you know, Mariska and and you know, everybody in the stands, and they're facing the lawyers and everybody.

Everybody is from here or the person who is testifying, and you know, so that's sometimes you'll get an over the shot, but most of the time you're completely off camera.

I always had the the Martini shot, you know, the last shot of the night.

Well, that's it's it's a wrap, it's Martini time.

So because I would sit there all day and if I didn't have my lines by the end of the day, because I had to keep saying the lines during the scenes, you know, objection overruled or whatever.

You know, you can't stop having babies and killing them.

Million dollars bail, oh my god, yes, boo, oh my god, you know.

Them all of course.

That's a classic.

And yeah, where you're like, do you think you could maybe not get pregnant in the nest?

And she's like, I really can't promise that.

Oh yeah, okay, million dollars.

Did you always agree with Judge Preston's rulings.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was there's just nothing, you know, they wrote for her, it was called the toughest judge in New York.

That's that was my rep there at the at the thing.

I haven't done one in years.

I'd love to do another one, but.

They yeah, Top was your last one, and I think we was it, Yeah, Crimean chronologically it was the last one that you did.

Yeah.

But I get recognized most often for sudden impact and the judge of course, because as for you, because we're in people's homes, we're in your bedroom, we're in your living room, we're in your kitchen, and with the most awful story, we're just almost the shuddering I mean in the violence happens off camera.

That's you know, what's very noir about the whole thing is that you you don't often see the beatings the child.

You know, you know the one I don't remember.

The name of it.

It's the one John Larrakatt, which I admire him so much.

We had a great time.

But you know, the episode you're talking about with John larra Catt is actually called Anchor, and that's from season eleven, and it's all about like people being immigration and people being racist against immigrants.

And it's like we watch these episodes all the time.

We can't believe how SVU, like so little has changed in a lot of the things that they talk about.

You know, I have to tell you, I was sitting in the makeup chair for that episode and was already just like horrified at the episode, you know, And this little kid comes in, and one of the little kids who was killed.

I guess, yeah, And she said to the makeup woman, she said, can you the director wants me to have.

Some more blood around my neck around the chain or the chain.

No, it needs some more blood.

And I'm looking at this thing, no bigger than a minute and beautiful and with this mark surround her neck.

And the makeup girl says sure.

I mean they have they have to have iron you know, constitutions there at that show.

So she says sure.

And I had just gotten a racist thing from somebody, an old friend who's no longer a friend.

And it was over this text that she sent me right at that moment when I was seeing this child.

She sent me some something about Mexicans something.

And I just lost it.

And I told her she better confessed to her pretty stently better.

I lost lost the friendship.

It's over because of that.

We're on that set.

That's so wild.

While I was on this set, because how much can you take seeing a baby child with chain around its neck?

And then complete the episode where you know, the guy says I'm free to do more, right?

You know?

Then he got elected president.

You know.

Well, I wanted to mention, speaking of hair and makeup, I watched all of your your moments yesterday, a different hairstyle every episode, right right.

Always take a fun new haird no wonder.

You're always There were some barrels, there.

Were some curls, some little bobs half up, half down.

This these these episodes that I did were like twenty five years ago.

Yeah, the show has been on, it's in season twenty seven right now.

It's crazy.

Yeah, you're right, you've been in our lives.

I have been grateful for every minute.

I mean, well, of course, not to mention the residuals.

That was actually one of my questions.

I want to Yeah, what's how's that working?

Okay?

Great?

Yeah, yeah, I mean they I don't know what the base pay is anymore, and I don't know what it was ago.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's television.

It's funny.

Television and theater don't really pay but the residuals are like a fine wine that just keeps.

Getting better and better, you know.

And I mean I made sudden impact in eighty three eighty four, and that's the thing.

It just delivers like weekly.

Wow, so oh please, this Beau and the SBU and all of the law and Orders get shown all over the world.

We get we get residuals from Spain.

And Portugal and Germany and Sweden.

We're big in Sweden and the Netherlands.

I mean, it's just the residuals are like manna from heaven.

You know, you can't count on it.

You know, it just drops and you know it's either wine money or rent money, you know, and if you if you're lucky enough, it's somewhere in between.

And because you're sharing that space with a lot of New York actors.

So a lot of New York actors have been paying the rent with these residuals all these years, Yeah, they have employed.

It's not uncommon.

It's it's in fact, it's quite common to see Law and Order in every playbill.

Yeah, ye for it, I look for it.

Oh yeah, I do too.

Or else.

I saw someone on Death Becomes Her and I was like he was in an SVU for sure.

I know.

Oh yeah, yeah, that guy I saw him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting to see what streaming will do to the future of that because the residuals just aren't the same and like, and there's not the same twenty two episodes, you know, yeah season.

Like we talked to so many actors who are have such interesting careers and have been able to do all this these different things and have had highs and lows, and it just I don't know that people will hang on for as long if they don't have like, you know, residuals and stuff like that that kind of kept them going.

You're not going to see people that work for forty years or whatever, you know, with out getting like regular work.

You know.

Yeah.

I have been lucky to make my living at this.

I haven't been a waitress since nineteen.

Seventy six.

Were in New York.

But when you were no, No, I was a waitress in Chicago, well Mark mel Mark on uh Eatery in Lincoln Park.

I lived on the North Side.

Where did you live in the.

I lived in Bucktown and Roscoe Village.

See these are neighborhoods.

They came on after I left.

You know what, I did want to ask you if you went to Old Town Alehouse, if that was a place across the street.

Yeah, it was.

It was across the street from Second City.

You know, I love that bar.

I was in Second City from like seventy.

Three.

Oh my god.

And we didn't you didn't used to have to take classes.

Well, there was a class.

Joe Forresburg taught a class, and a bunch of us who.

Came up in the same companies.

Went to Joe Forresburgh's classes or Dell Close and Del Close would just grab you by the breast, you know, and say you've had a class.

You know, Dell Close was a serious problem as well as a serious genius.

Yeah.

I was in New York, so I was operated to as this brigade for all my improv stuff.

Oh my god, did the Dell Close marathon and we all prayed at the Church of del Clothes for a long time.

Not me, but like you had to read the books for your classes and stuff.

Oh yeah, well you know he was.

You know, there's the story of him putting his arm off stage, you know that one.

No, I don't know anything of this.

Dell once took a hit some one of the other ones, one of his other compatriots backstage there say Kamara, Kamara got a hit for you that was, you know, some dope in the.

So he he was on stage at the moment, so he just went off.

And I don't know if you're familiar with the Second City stage, but you can just go off and you can still be on and put your arm off.

And he so the story went, He put his arm off, the guy tied him off, shot him up, and he came back.

But I wouldn't put it past him, and he was just that, he was, oh.

Oh, oh, oh, no, no, thank you.

I have a thing.

I have a theory.

Time is on time.

Well, my friend and dear little brother, like the late Jerry Gutierras, had asked me to do this play in Chicago and it was called Cursive an Aching Heart, and it was the It was a follow up to Hogan's Goat that had been done with Faye done Away in New York, and Faye Dunaway made her Broadway debut.

I believe in Hogan's Goat, so I said yes, I'll do it.

And a year and a half later, when we were supposed to be doing it.

Some film got destroyed and I had to go up for a reshoot at Mackinaw Island for Somewhere in Time, where I played an actress in the Traveling Acting Company with Seymour, Jane Seymour.

When she went off and spoke to Christopher Reeve in the audience, I was on stage with her, and that film had been somehow altered or destroyed and we had to do a reshoot up and it got right in the middle of when the play would be opening in Chicago.

I said, I can't, I got to do this.

He brought in Mary Lou Risotto.

She stayed in my apartment.

I went up and did reshoots, came back.

Mary Lou was done with the play and had gone home back to New York, and I moved to LA and came back to Chicago to do some plays and got the call.

And I was in between Second City.

I was going back in on Tin Types.

I was performing in Tin Time.

I said it was going back into the company in Second City, and I stopped at my house to change clothes.

They were in between, and Uh, I got the call from Jerry Gouteris.

Mary Louis Outo has broken her leg.

We're opening on Broadway in ten days.

Can you be here in New York tomorrow?

And I said yes, I'll be there, and I didn't.

Mention I was.

I said yes, I'm out of ten types right now because I have a back injury.

But he said can you roller skate?

And I said I could be taught.

So that's how Mary Lou had broken her leg.

She was roller skating.

God yeah, and in a rehearsal hall and had broken her leg.

So I had to come in and I had to meet Faye Dunaway and we did the whole thing and again, and I got the you know, of course they I got the part because what with else are they going to do?

Was ten days?

Right?

I meet Fage on Away and they say, I came in from New Chicago overnight and I said, you know, oh, I dropped my bags.

I came right from the airport.

And they said, can you look at the script?

And I said, oh, sure, went in the other room and I looked at the script, which I was kind of familiar with anyway, and I came back in and I did this scene and they went, okay, could you leave the room for a second, And I went okay.

And I went out of the room and they went, okay, come back, and you got it, okay.

I guess they had to get a nod from her or something.

Well, within like two days they had to ask me to stop handling her.

What does that mean?

Well, I was like grabbing onto her.

We do this scene where we're like fourteen and sixteen years old, and we I must have been just like grabbing onto her.

Well, anyway, I have to tell you this story about the lost prop about okay, so that we come out, we're fourteen years old.

In the first scene we come out, I put on my roller skates.

She's already in her roller skates and skating around the stage.

And I come out and I say grand and Fran.

And as I'm putting on my skates, I say Lugs, And as her boyfriend who's to become her husband in the play, Lugs give me a letter for you.

And the letter contains a ring that she wears for their entire life.

And but now we're fourteen and the letter is in my sock.

Only the letter is not in my sock this night.

Now I have jammed this entire play into my head in ten days and William Alfred kept coming into rehearsals and even during previews with full pages for me.

He'd give me this and he say, can you put this in tonight?

And it was you know, good Terarist said control but yes, okay, so okay.

So there was there was the letter, and I knew where it was.

It was downstairs in the dressing room.

Well, as the skates were going on, I'm just like, I'm freaking.

Out because I know that letter is not there.

And now she always says, and I say, fran Loves, give me a letter for you.

She says, bring it here and let's read it.

We put our feet over the side of the stage that's where we were lit and read the letter.

Well, fran Loves, give me a letter for you.

She s bring it here.

Before she could sit down on the stage, I had to say, I want brand, but I lost it.

Now Faye dune Away comes up to me, skates over to me and puts her hand, her nail flight into my shoulder and she goes standing there.

I'm sitting on an apple cart.

She said, you lost it, and I said yeah.

But I read it first.

Fran you read it, and.

I said, yeah, it said deir Frand and still skating down into the light.

This was sitting on the apple box while her hand slowly let up as I recited the entire letter and then and then I turned to her and I said, and there was a ring friend, But I'll find that ring.

Amazing.

It wasn't until two scenes later we were able to contact each other.

We had different things to do and exits and stuff, and we were riding out on a trolley car and she said, how the fuck did you to that?

And I said, I don't know.

You got that's the improv training, that's the improv.

Well, a preparation I mean to have, yeah, memorized that you might not have.

Well, it went in.

It didn't.

I didn't mean to memorize it, but it just everything just got jammed in there so fast that it survived.

Oh my gosh.

She was all right.

She was an all right egg.

She had a tough time, you know, coming back, but.

She was all right.

And you were in the departed.

I was in the departed, the departed.

I was in the departed.

I'd played Nuns and Judges, you know, I did.

I did Sister Act the musical, you know, on Broadway, and I did at the Mary Wicks part in.

That, you know, and you were in dowb.

I don't think you were, Oh you were a sister.

Yeah, yeah, I was.

I was.

I'm sitting on the at the table with her having dinner, you know, and she was so unbelievably present.

And the moment that we were watching a rehearsal for the for the children's holiday show and we're sitting there and we had just discussed going to get some coffee, and then we said no, I'll just sit here.

And we sat there and talked while they set the lights for this scene.

And for the first time in my life, I know we shot the scene, but I cannot tell you where the camera was.

I have no idea where the camera was.

They just said we're ready to shoot.

We shot.

We were concentrated on the children, and you know the discussion we were having about makeup and this and that.

And I tell you that night I went home and I went, it's that camera.

And to this day I can't figure out where that camera was.

And I've seen the film, I've seen the scene.

I still can't figure out where the camera was.

And there wasn't anything self diffused about it.

They weren't hiding it.

It was just that you're aware of these things, you know, working with Meryl Streep, you just you just do the work and you're you're on another plane.

You just kind of lift up and your feet take off and nobody says to you, there's the camera.

You know what I mean.

You're just you don't think about it.

Do you?

As judge Lois Preston, did you have any preferences vers of being in chambers versus being on the bench.

I liked when it was in chambers.

They let me put up pictures.

Oh yeah, but they walk and talk between the chambers and the and the and the bench.

That's not easy.

Yeah.

We talk about the deal all the time with people we interview.

Were like, how didn't you know that much medical jargon while you were walking?

Oh?

I know, I know?

And how much legal My first walk and talk I kind of got tripped up, you know, And I think I was a little bit.

I think I only had one or two, but this this one, I was just like and I can remember being in the hallway.

I think that was when I had knocked my teeth out knock wood.

I had an accident leaving the stage where I knocked out my teeth, Yeah, and but I knock wood all the times that didn't touch my eyes.

You know, I landed on a chair.

So so I say, I've taken a chair to the face, you know what I mean?

And I survived and that was a review in the theater.

But some of the teeth went away and I had to have some replacements put in and some work done, and that work that show where I did the walk and talk, I had only like half the teeth I had.

Some something was wrong I was.

I just remembered saying to the DP, so you're not really seeing inside mouth?

Are You are kind of staying away from that, aren't we?

So I just kind of remember that being kind of distracting.

And Mariska said, do you need some help?

And I went yes, and she just said this is what you do and she kind of walked me through it and it just completely I put my shoulders down, and I was so grateful.

She was always very kind.

Couldn't have been nicer.

And a bunch of them came to see me do a play Kristen Rag's piece that I did at the Public Theater.

Why torture is Wrong?

And the people who love them or I kept getting to drop my underpants kept dropping.

I mean, what a gift is that?

What kind of a gift is that of a role?

Huh?

You get to keep dropping your underpants.

So anyway, a bunch of them came to see the show.

Wait, we've been talking about like people, are there any new actors that you admire their work or you can't wait to see?

Like, are there any new up and becoming actors that you're in too?

Well, there's not.

He's not so much up and coming.

But what's his name?

The Irish boy who's got a movie out now about gambling in macau.

Is it Paul no Oh?

Colin Farrell, Colin Farrell, Colin I abdure Colline, Oh, I adure Colin Farrell.

It's all I've won the street once in the East Village and it's just I shutter.

I think I think he's terrific and I think he's got a lot of range.

Yeah.

Wait, we also have to ask one more thing you were in Friends?

Yeah?

Yeah, and the one where Joey, Joey gets a Joey gets his uh his place, Joey gets his own a place, his own apartment.

That's what the one which and he yeah, we sing happy birthday.

The parents are upstairs fucking in the shower and we're we're we are we.

Sing Happy birthday, bringing in the cake.

Yeah, I got it.

One line, Oh, she probably has something about her kits press that are still standing straight up.

I don't remember this line from nineteen ninety something like five.

That's wild because it got a laugh.

If it's a laugh line, you remember, lever, I get it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In the movie you go ahead and make my day, you know, I played a woman who gang raped, set up a gang rape for two sisters.

Oh right, yeah, yeah, and one girl is catatonic.

The younger sister is catatonic after the rape.

This gang rape underneath the boardwalk, and I taught them about well they're being raped by the way, and her older sister comes back and kills everybody who was involved in the rape.

And I know that she's in town and killing people.

So when she comes to kill me, she's got a gun aimed at me.

And here's a line that's your slut sister.

Boom.

Wow.

That's my last to the very end.

Oh my god.

So I've done some scary things, but mostly I do funny things.

Right, So you you women know what that is.

That's lifting your soul, that's feeding your soul to go out there and make people laugh.

It's the most goddamn seductive.

Thing there is.

It's seductive for them, and it's seductive for you, you know.

Yeah, So you're the best.

Give you prop You're the best.

This was so amazing.

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Thank you, thank you.

I had a good time.

Thanks hearing everything.

Yes, good, a great.

I'm enjoying the podcast now too.

So who would ever get so I'm enjoying it now, so I'll be listening.

Yeah, you can hear all the times I mispronounce your name, Lewis.

Oh my god, that's what a dream, what a lovely I love meeting these people who are like just career actors with all these stories and what a memory, great memory lines from decades ago, little moments, the espresso beans.

But we've been chased center down.

I want.

Yeah, it couldn't have happened at a better time.

A Christmas miracle, A Christmas miracle.

We got the subject of our Louis Luis T shirt on the pod.

The best T shirts still available you probably won't get it for Christmas, but you can not at this point, I think, But you can get it for a little New Year's treat on New Year's treet.

But yeah, amazing.

I love that she remembers the guest stars, the attorneys, all the moments with the detectives their and makeup the plot.

Plus I mean it was like Dunaway story, Like I mean, I barely read a script when it's not my part, Like I can't imagine memorizing like the Yatters and everything.

And she named names, which I enjoy.

She gave us, you know, she gave us a lot of tea and a lot of attitude.

Dell Close doing Heroin in the Doorways, you know.

Yeah, Lois was giving the t for sure.

Uh yeah.

And Sbu does need to bring her back and maybe they need to like help her do something like she reaches out to them or do they even do recurring judges anymore?

Like I don't think about that.

They well, yeah, the soprano's sister, But is she still into the into the current?

To me?

She is, but yeah, I hate it.

Let's see what her list one.

Speaking of a sopranos sister, I mean we had Dreya's to Matteo on.

This week sixteen episodes up until so she was from season fourteen until it says twenty seven.

She's in season twenty seven, episode one, and they wind all right.

I would say, okay, he's the one, because all the men end up always being in the the big busts of chess.

Yeah, pedophilia judges basically every time they do like Adelia, they've got to just wipe the whole slate of all the male judges and like only the female judges survive.

That's so true.

Yeah, they get swept up in the sweeps.

Baby.

But speaking of sopranos, this episode, Dreya's de Matteo does a great job.

Too bad she's gone a little bit logo.

This is a dang.

It's like, don't have kids if you don't want to be a parent.

But if you're gonna be a parent, why don't you Why don't you be a parent?

Why don't you put your kid before a stepfather that beats them?

Like, go fuck yourself?

Sorry, people are I would never.

I would never.

I'm sorry.

No, I mean I know it's like more complicated than that.

But she made a lot of excuses and she did a lot of acting for the cops in this episode.

Right, they both got away with it, like I'll tell you that much.

Yeah, they were smart enough to conspire and know the law and know about how double Jeopardy works and stuff and how you know both can't be uh, you know you both can't like do you excuse I mean?

But then they kind of did that plot again for the Ballad of Dwight and Arena.

So interesting.

I wonder how close to the real I'm sure our law our law girlies will let us know how close said is.

Like if many people just both confess, they both just get to leave.

Kara.

I went to Marie's crisis.

For those who don't know, it's like a Broadway bar in New York where there's a piano guy and people sing, and I got to saying, they both, they.

Both, they both, they both.

It was so fun like sometimes people are like, you know, it's theater people, so they know the deep cuts and so it's not very on for me.

But this guy was just.

Hit Hit Hit Chicago La Miss Grease, Hairspray, like what I love that we would know and so I but when I got to sing the gun, I obviously thought of you.

So true.

I like sometimes when they do too many of like the B side ballads from a show that you've never heard of.

You're like, this is from assassins, Like okay, what Like, yeah, I just and good for them.

I'm glad they have a place to sing.

Yeah, weird songs.

But when I'm there, I want the hits and I got But no, I was gonna say, I like when people answer at the same time, you know what I mean, when like Trey Mateo and the Sun at the same time, we're like, it's.

Me, it was me me, Yeah, it's.

Me, Okay, I speaking of Broadway.

Yeah, this episode tough stuff.

I mean, just fucking the depravity.

It's like, yeah, people have been like smacking their kids around.

That's like not something new on the show.

But it's like betting on your child, beating up smaller children.

It's like another level of well, I don't know.

I mean early seasons we had someone adopting a boy to get him murdered to get a payout.

I mean, these people are crazy.

We need to protect children.

Never forget the raw adopters.

Oh my god, that's so true.

That's so sick.

But yeah, but this is not gonna make any excuse, not like Moby Dick White Whale.

But I would say Judge Preston is someone we've been really gunning for.

I don't know why I wanted to get her, and she gave us everything.

I mean, you guys are getting the best.

I mean, it was tough to edit, I would say, I will tell it.

We talked to her for an hour and a half over yeah, an hour and forty two minutes we talked, So it was incredible.

So big ups to Casey for editing that down to something that you guys could listen to.

And I feel bad for you guys that you don't get to hear more, to be honest, because so many good stories and tales and remember and I love her bringing up Colin Ferrell being an up and coming I.

Mean he was not.

We're like, who do you like that's up and coming?

Colin Farrell?

Amazing.

It seemed like she had a crush on Colin Farrell.

Maybe she's seen his sex tape.

I kind of had a crush on him more after I saw his sex tape.

I I really I thought I like him.

I like Colin Farrell.

Oh me too.

I don't think I've ever seen one movie he's ever done, but I like him.

Let me look at his IMDb.

Hold on, oh I have?

I mean also TV shows too, I guess, like True Detective and stuff.

But what are let's.

See I'm gonna see if I've seen his movie.

I will want to watch the Penguin since he won the award and stuff.

She's of Scheran.

Can you imagine that, Shearon?

That's just not gonna happen.

Yeah, I didn't see the Lobster, but I did see the other.

Isn't he in Killing of a Sacred Deer?

Yes?

I did see that one.

Not I would see the Beguiles.

I haven't seen solid.

I didn't want his season of.

Shoot you didn't watch the Dumbo reboot?

Are you out of the live action Dumbo?

I actually was screaming at people yesterday about how against I am a against uh.

Things should be made into cartoons, not cartoons, right, vis It makes no sense saving mister bank snow.

Okay, Farrel's in Horrible Bosses and he's in Seven Psychopaths.

I saw that.

That's where I'm at right now.

I've seen Seven Psychopaths and I've seen Horrible Bosses.

But you're right, I know him so much more as just a hot man.

I have not seen so many.

Of these movies that I have not seen another movie but Veronica Gern I should remember for the movie Game, Kate Blenchett, let's get that in my head.

I know about Phone Booth.

Oh, I watched Minority Report this year because I'm yeah, like the Recruit, Daredevil, all this stuff.

It's like, I never I don't.

I've never seen any of the Alexander.

Alexander was like his version of like Troy Yeah yeah or no, what?

Yeah?

Should I name more one from the one Gladiator?

You know what?

It felt like that kind of type of movie.

But yes, you had the exact same.

So I've seen three out of his sixty seven credits.

But he's been a part of my life and he is hot and that's important.

And then true Detective, he's amazing.

I've never seen fantastic Beasts.

Yeah, this is crazy.

Oh Widows.

I saw Widows.

We know, I fucking love Widows.

I did not Widows.

Oh man, I did like Widows con like not for real, but like I was like throwing up w's taking photos of myself at the movie theater.

Like I love Widows.

Oh the first time I saw Cynthia Rivo.

Yes, dude, she's a pretty big part of Widows and she's twenty five people down on the on the list on IMDb.

I had to go to more cast.

That's crazy.

That's the first thing I saw Cynthia Rivo, and I think was because I had not seen her in any of her like live theater.

But tune in next week for our recaps of my recap of for Good.

But yeah, do you want to get into what has changed within me?

Yeah?

I can't believe you got to do don't reach?

They both reached for the gun.

That's such a fun one was electric it?

Oh yes, did you just slow down part?

Oh?

Yes?

So everything you know you were with the theater geeks.

So yeah, all the little moments.

Yeah, and we got the best booth, Like there's like one table that's amazing, and we had it because if there wasn't, if I wasn't at that table, I would.

Have left very quickly.

Oh, we had Like I've never been there.

I maybe some of those other like Don't Tell Mama's, I've been to some of those other Broadway bars, but I've never been to Marie's crisis.

Yeah, I guess it's become a thing for me, but I'm not happy about it.

Tell the people how they can help, Okay the people.

Let's get to what would Sister Peg do.

This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards, you know, an organization, a book, an article, something to give you more info about what we talked about today.

And this week we're pointing you.

I felt like, after seeing Drea de Matteo's character struggling in this relationship, I wanted to point to a domestic violence organization, and I found one called Live your dream dot org, which is about a movement fiercely dedicated to ensuring every woman and girl has the opportunity to reach her full potential, be free from violence, and live her dreams.

They provide women and girls with access to the education and training they need to achieve economic empowerment.

So for more information or to donate, head over to Live your dream dot orga live your Dreams that will always be in our show notes linked all of our wwspds or in our show notes linked.

And then they get put in a store that comes out the day of the episode airs, and those get saved on our Instagram page.

That's messed up pod under our WWSPD highlight.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Oh now we have to talk about what we're doing next week because it's different.

Oh okay, do you want to do it?

Do you want to double duty?

Well, let me try and then you can make it more professional.

Remember I was at a party with a killer.

So no, we're going to be doing something, yeah, different from the holidays.

We've never done anything like it.

And we're going to watch death and Apartment six.

So three what Happened to Ellen Greenberg?

It's a three part doc on Hulu and we are going to be speaking to the director of the doc and we're going to do a deep dive fully into this case and documentary with the director of the documentary, who is such an accomplished person.

And it was Yeah, so we hope you enjoy this and get enraged with this one.

You know this this episode we're doing that's different.

Yeah, we just wanted to do something a little bit different for the holidays, and so we're giving you this fun little deep dive documentary thing where we talk with Nancy Schwartzman.

So it's gonna be great.

Tune in next week.

Happy holidays, everybody, see you next week.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.

Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner.

And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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