It was my pleasure to welcome both Sebastian and your honors.

And I'm not even going to tempt your second names, guys, and you can introduce yourselves, but you're both here from Clearlid Saunas, which is a sauna that I use.

And you know, I've hundred you guys down and no doubt you hundred clear Light Saunas.

Danielsels, maybe give us a really intro what you said.

Yeah, I'm I'm co founder and CEO of Clearlud Saunas International Distribution Company of Clearlud Saunas, and we've been doing this for thirteen years.

I'm originally from Germany, That's where the accent is from small working town.

I never thought I would actually leave this town, but somehow I figured it out.

I moved to New Zealand and I realized that if you compare Europe to New Zealand, the health system is very different.

So I heard that they were waiting lists when you actually get sick.

It's scared me so much that I actually looked into health an awful lot, and over the ten years of this journey, I became a raw vegan, really very thin try to figure out, you know, how to actually stay healthy so that I never have to go to the hospital.

As part of that, I found that infrared saunas is one of those tools that you can use through all your life.

It's not invasive, it's really really easy to use, so you comply with the regime really easily.

And I looked what's the best one out there, and clear like at that stage was mostly in the US.

I went to health conferences in the US.

That's yeah, many moons ago now, and we started to bring that into New Zealand, Australia, UK, also Europe, wider Europe, Middle East and so on.

So it's something that people were ready to find because it is a great tool to actually support your health.

On the counterpart, I'm Johannes also German.

Background is engineering, and I think that's how we actually met, so sort of both studied environmental engineering and I think sometimes the universe just has that calling right and sort of just sucks you into an opportunity.

And I still remember that day where I told my dad is like, hey, Dad, I'm going to sell sauna.

That's twenty three, just finishing my studies.

Remember it's like I used to but like you know, sacrificing your career has a good German, you know, everyone becomes an engineer.

But yeah, thirteen years later we're sort of immersing ourselves in for Ittzuna technology.

We talked about red light before, we talked about aspath and it's a I feel like it's a really fascinating time to be alive at the moment because you know, over the last six years, in particular with COVID, it's just really put a it's just really bit a change I think that we haven't seen before and I think there's a bit of an awakening and being here in Australia is just phenomenal because I think like the wellness and the health and longevity space is just absolutely booming, and yeah, it's a great time to be in life.

There's a lot of knowledge out there, but there's also a lot of misinformation too, so I think it is a little bit of a maze.

But at the same time, you can actually get really deep into subjects that previously you probably only would get from maybe your GP or something like that.

So I think or even that myjup is a great guy, but it's difficult for a GP even to keep ahead of this sort of stuff.

I mean, they're diagnosing and prescribing, and they're doing it on mass late in the day.

They'll do thirty or forty patients.

Hard for them to get the time to actually do THEOS on this stuff.

I mean, I mean, I guess you guys are a little bit like me, especially when you just mentioned your journeys about you, like, I've become obsessed with this whole health project and you know, and in that regard, I tend really a lot.

And that's how I found you guys.

That's actually that's how I found your your infrared's owner.

And that's literally And then I thought I'll reach out of these guys and get them come and explain to me why the hell I bought their info.

It's auner because I don't really know that much about it.

And let's start with this, and you guys choose who's going to anwer the question.

But let's start with this.

The sauna that seems to me to be one of.

The better choices of all the different types of horners is infrared.

Maybe you can explain to the audience.

Straight up, perhaps what are the broader in the broad tones, what are the various types of sawners, and why do you choose infra red?

So I think I mean you said it right, Like there's a there's a ton of de saunas out there basically, and they all sort of mimic heat stress.

Like everything we're going to talk about evolves around heat and sort of raising the core temperature and helping you sweat.

And there's just different types.

Right, So you mentioned infrared as the name says, there's infrared light in there.

We're going to talk about that later what that means.

But it's a form of light not very high temperatures forty to sixty maybe seventy degrees cells here, and that raises your core temperature.

Then you have finish saunas.

They've been you know, around probably for more than one hundred years.

This is the one where you pull Yeah, exactly, it's hot.

Rock sawnas you know, and you know you typically you have temperatures of eighty ninety degrees like so much hotter, much hotter, and it's all measured in air temperature, right like if it's a if eighty degrees is a hot sawna nine degrees eve been hotter.

You have the Russian bunyas you know, which I think is also a type of hot rock sauna, but typically they go even up to one hundred degrees cells then you have steam saw us, you know, so typically lower temperatures sixty degrees, very high humidity, and you sort of literally have steam that you put in the room and through that you sweat.

Technically, you could actually consider a whirlpool also part of a heat therapy or heat treatment.

Water.

Yeah, do a hot bath at home, do whirlpool.

You'd have to stay in there for a long time, which most people won't do, and you literally have to break a sweat while you in the whirlpool.

But the funny you should say that is because I saw the other day I read an article about a couple who actually fell asleep in a hot tub.

And cooked themselves and died.

It's pretty scary, and I think that's you know, son as they all sound great, right, but technically they can all kill us because it is stress on the body.

Where we relax, it's actually hard work for a.

Body, it to work out.

And you know, you hear these stories, these horror stories once in a while where people fall asleep where the door is jammed and they can't get out you know in touch Wood that's not going to happen to us.

But you know, it's stress for the body, and it's literally a bit of a survival and mechanism that we sort of put our body in.

And obviously after that with you're great, we get all these benefits and longevity and whatnot.

But at that particular moment, it's hard work for a cardio biscuits system.

So that's interesting.

So maybe you just just just stop there for a second.

I've never really thought about it like this.

I mean, I just think I've always thought, well, I'm sweating, and sweating is good for me, and I've always thought I've also equally thought, probably incorrectly, that it's.

A little bit like a workout because my heart rate's going.

But the reason why I think we're just saying it corrects me if I'm wrong with the reason why it's good for me is because when when my body stresses and stress being my body's put under stress, my heart's working harder, my blood vessels are opening up, my skin's trying to cool me.

Down through perspiration.

The after you, after you deal with that, what's that stress finish after you deal with it?

Or maybe it's not after why is that being stressed good for me?

Because most of us say, I've always stressed.

Why is that good for me?

Well, you know it's cold adaptations, Yeah, exactly.

It's it's called harmatic stress, right, and we have different stresses cold as a stress exercises, a stress saunas, or as stress.

This stress, you know, I mean, financial stress is kind of also stress, but it's I think it's negative and so there's good and bad stress.

I think that's probably the easiest way to say it.

And I think, you know, this is saying which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

And I'm not a big fan of that because I think, you know, we shouldn't really we shouldn't really enjoy the suffering.

But I do think like the adaptation process and actually going through something that is challenging increases resilience, right, And I think that an ice bath doesn't get easier every day, like, in fact, it's always freaking hard.

And saying like I know we talked about the sauna had before, like after thirty minutes and the sauna it's freaking hard to stay in that, but you still, you know, I don't know, do another minute, do another two minutes and after that you come out and you're like, yeah, I've done it, like you know, so it sort of really drives that resilience.

You know, you get a home on cocktail that is basically released.

And that practice in itself is something that the stoics practice too, Like you need to go through the hardship in order to sort of build character.

Seminar and resilience and saunas are a tool that we can just utilize a daily basis.

What are some of the physical adaptations that we get as a result of putting ourselves through this hermetic stress heat stress?

A variety.

I mean, I think the easiest is, as you said, the cardio escular system, right, so you said exactly that, you know, it feels like you're doing a workout and you know, I know you were a whoop you know where AURA users and you can measure that, like you know, after forty minute session, my heart rate was at one hundred and fifty five.

Like that is beyond cardio, beyond beyond zone two cardio, which you know you should sort of beyond like a minute.

Yeah, and so zone two I think is one hundred and twenty.

Right.

The idea is that you sort of jock, but you can have a good conversation and that sort of really gives you that cardio escular training.

It's good for longevity, and a sauna mimics that, but you can actually even go beyond that a one hundred and fifty five, which literally is like your heart's racing and you're sitting in there relaxing, listening to podcasts, but your body is just working.

It's pumping blood, producing white blood cells, cardio escular, the heat adaptation lymphatic system is on.

There's a ton of biochemistry happening the body.

It's quite a passive aerobic workout because your body, your heart actually has to work harder also because there's something happening, and that's it's mostly in an infrared's horness, which is called vessel dilation, which means actually a blust vessels expand.

So it means that your heart has actually to work a little bit harder to move everything around because if you like, the piping has just like increased, and so there's quite a few calories that your heart actually puts extra in to get this all going, and that is also exhausting.

So yours is infrared.

Just explain to me what that means, because it's not necessarily a red light that I'm going to see.

Maybe you could just take me through it, because you know, I know my one, for example, I've got this mesh and they've got these panels all around me.

As I sit down the seat, there's panels around me, and then there's panels below me around for my legs, and then sometimes you see them.

You can also see them with panels in the front, and or you might have in your case one of your ones.

Anyway, you have a red heater.

So maybe just take me through the process of yours in particular.

I mean, I think we have to probably start with the basics, and that is literally we're talking about light, right, so if you know, if we talk about light, we sort of have the studio light and mine we have the sunlight in mine.

We know about UV light, which technically we need but you know, in an excessive amount is bad, and so there is and you can look that up on Wikipedia or ch GBT, like, there is a spectrum of light, and so within that spectrum of light you have infrared light and so that has a particular wavelength.

Right, So we sort of started five hundred nanometers thereabouts, and it touches.

So nanometer, by the way, is one billionth of a meter.

Yeah, that's right, it's up nine, So it's a you know, it's.

One billionth So we're not with a fraction of a fraction.

Of it's a tiny particle.

And just just so understand, I've always want to ask this question.

Basically, that means if it's if it's a if it's six hundred nanometers, six hundred billions of a meta.

That's pretty small.

That that means that these particular this wavelength of light, when if you looked at us up and down like a.

Wave, they're very close, very close, very very closely.

You would never see it, but like extraordinarily close in terms of billions.

So that that's the length of the wave of that particular part of light, of the spectrum of the light spectrum.

And what you can't see, no, well parts of it, parts of us you can.

And the higher the wavelengths, the higher the energy that is in there.

And that's the fascinating thing.

So you have certain wavelengths that have have a higher energy.

So if it if it hits your body, if you like or go into your body, to release this more energy than other, but then other wavelengths can penetrate you deeper and therefore bring heat deeper into your body, but it might not have the same and ecaloric value, meaning like it doesn't create as much heat.

So do you want to sort of go from the differense sort of like stage Yeah.

I mean I think you know again, like if you think about infrared, that's part of the light spectrum, and so it starts at nanometers.

While we talked about that, and there's three types of infrared ne infrared, you know, which is invisible, but it touches on the visible light spectrum.

So when you talk about the full spectrum heat, sit you in the front.

There's there's a little bit of red light in there, and so it touches on that spectrum.

So it touches from visible to invisible, and most of NEE infrared is invisible.

And then you have middle infrared, you know, it's sort of a longer wavelength, like less energy, different nanometer area, and then you have fine for red and fin and forred is probably something that everyone has experience.

If you rub your.

Two hands, you can actually see that we emit heat, so we as human beings actually emit far and thread a bonfire, the sun.

All of that is also infrared.

But if you, for instance, talk about the sun, it's forty nine percent of NEE infrared.

So the beauty about infrared, like people always think, God, does it cast skin damage or does it cost can So actually, if you think about it, you know we have it in mother nature and therefore in infrared.

Soon it utilizes these wavelength you know, it's quite easy.

You look at what nature does and as you sort of build your engineers something around it, and then you put these heaters, so you literally put electricity in and basic terms, and you create those wavelength and when you're sitting in there, you're exposed to these different types of infrared and they penetrate into your skin and then over time they sort of gradually increase your core temperature.

So as the theory behind infrared sauna that as opposed to hot stone saunas and all those other ones, is that it heats up you from sort of from the inside, yes, as opposed to the other ones, as more your skin is reacting to the ambient temperature.

Exactly.

That's a really beautiful way to actually look at it, because like normally, what you have is you have an ambient temperature that let's talk it's ninety degrees hot, but it only touches your skin and as you sweat this wh it is actually a thermal barrier, meaning like the temperature cannot actually penetrate you as well, whereas infrared only releases its energy when it finds its equivalent, meaning the wavelength of fine fred for example, is really really similar to if you have a really good infrared sauna is the wavelengths of water, which means it travels through the air.

If the air is completely dry, no energy is lost.

It's unlikely, but no energy is lost.

It hits your body at at that moment it actually releases so any water molecules in your body get actually technically vibrating and therefore heat up.

If you would have a steam room and you use infrared, a lot of energy would actually be captured by the water in the air.

And that's a massive difference because one is basically you're just surrounded by heat and your body can to certain degree stop heating up, versus infrared is that you can't.

It travels into your body and therefore the core temperature is definitely increased.

That's why it's so effective.

And that these rays of energy, which is what it is, they get, they get right inside your body, like do they go to your liver?

Mean, where do they go?

Good question.

I mean, I think it depends on the type of infrared.

So near in forred is sort of has the highest energy density, and you know, the research is kind of there's mixed opinions, Like I think there's some that say up to four to five centimeters, which if you think about what that means, it actually would and would get into your organs.

And what we're sort of seeing from red light therapy, which has about eight thousand studies, is they confirm the same thing, meaning near and for it actually penets penetrates deeper than we think fine for itd itself, you know, which is sort of our human frequency as well.

That sort of only goes up to one points, you know, zero point one centimeters or maybe one point two that's sorry, zero point two, So it's sort of a softer But I think because it works on the body, and we as human beings are seventy percent water, that's why find for it works so effective.

But the penetration into the skin is not very deep.

Right, So, so the infrared and a in a typical sauna infrared, that is, the the infrared emitters the fire and thread emitters behind in your case, mesh h mesh.

You can't see anything.

No, no, they're just black panels.

They don't glaw or anything like that.

They don't.

But even if the mash wasn't there, you would still see not anything.

So the mash has a different, different function.

What's the mesh for?

That is about mitigating em electromagnetic frequencies and YELF which is extremely to frequencies.

So we're talking.

Let's just talk about that for a second.

So electromagnetic frequencies, which by the way, is around us all the time, absolutely everywhere.

The whole universe is one big electromagnetic force.

But that mesh is important, isn't it.

Well, so it's you know, I think I wouldn't I mean, for it is, yes, But I think I think that the problem actually and the mission is bigger.

And I think, you know, we live in a world where I think, you know, we were exposed to more technology than ever, which I think is great, Like you know, think about what AI and technology has really enabled us to do.

But the problem with EMF is that it has an effect on a human.

Body, especially when it's accumulated.

And especially that, but also if it's if it's high exposure.

Right.

So I always like to joke that I think everyone would understand that you shouldn't sleep on a WiFi rather and even if you don't understand how that stuff works, you understand that somehow that thing admits something and and surely it's not good for a human body.

And so there's conten.

Cause we are and electrical beings in a sense, there's so much going on there, and there are PhD studies now that really confirmed that.

For example, if you have a baby Wi Fi right next to the baby, it has a very different sleep pattern.

So it's it's quantified that that is not so good.

And and actually to the point of infrared heaters that you can measure that the electro smock the EMF and and if it's not shielded, which is something that we really really push in the industry, you get to a reading of about one hundred milligoes, which is about fifty times as much as the world holds organization considered safe.

So it's it's it's a problem for infrared in particular because we figured out the old technology had none of that, but it wasn't as effective and so and by the way, infred has been infrared saunas have been around since the seventies, was invented by Japanese researchers just by somehow pure luckily.

And what happened then is we found more effective feeders to get the wavelength right what I was saying about, like hit exactly the wavelengths that water has, and you really can help the body.

The downside was that it was a particular technology that creates a massive EMF field.

So you when you look into infrared saunas, you really want to shield that off because that field, unfortunately with that technology is too big to what is considered safe.

And I think, like that's the mission, the mission you really should be safeguarding sooner ease, and it well, like I think optimizing for obviously time for I think we talked about personalization before, which you know, I'm sure we'll talk about more, but I think if you and like why do people buy saunas, and you know, I think there's a big why.

I mean, well there's a big it's just really trendy at the moment, right, and I feel like, I'm sure there's a bit of a wellness revolution going on, but I think also there's there's just come more research out, Like I think, you know, the likes of doctor Rona Patrick, Humanman, Peter Tyah, like a lot of them actually change their opinion, and that's sort of no abolish on saunas, which a lot of them weren't.

And the reason really is that over the last five to ten years we've seen a magnitude of really promising studies come out on sauna and the benefits on long term benefits on Alzheimer brain health and YadA YadA, yadi.

And so I think obviously the media and the public buys into that narrative and sort of through that these sort of create products and businesses flourish and people want to buy into that.

But as with everything, when it's strendingly, people take shortcuts, you know, they sort of try to come up with a cheaper product then, and sacrifice.

Is just ignorant.

I think it's a bit of both.

I think it's a bit of like people do not really understanding what EMF means.

I mean, you know, I think we sometimes shop our competitors and ask them, so how about EMF, and and you know, the common answers, Oh, it's not a problem.

They don't have em and like physiology, like physically and like from an engineering but that doesn't exist.

There's always going to be some EMF.

So that really signals you that most people just don't understand the topic and it is complex.

I get that, you know, but I think that's really why I think people take shortcuts because they think, you know, we'll just not do anything about that and sort of you know, reduce the product by a third and taking shortcuts.

But basically, but it comes with the price, right, And that's a safety aspect.

It's you know, the materials being used, chemicals and the glues and off gassing.

The t GA doesn't regulate saunas yet, right.

That's interesting coming back to your question the why do people do in for it saunaus, there's some really tangible effects that it's very beautiful.

Like if we get people who say like it doesn't anything to thritis, for example, there are quite a few different thriders that definitely respond to it.

So what we normally say to customers is like, try one of our saunas.

It's the right wavelength and see how you feel afterwards.

And the reality is that because of what I mentioned before, vessel dilation, your vessels open up and they flush out a particular element, a pain indicator called element P actually, and so when people have thriders in a particular part of their body, that element gets flushed out for about twenty four to thirty six hours and you can manage a pain with it, so they are out of pain.

They don't have to use painkillers overnight.

I remember a customer that you know, I installed it, came back next day day because I had forgotten something, and the woman's the wife was like, oh my god, he forgot to use his painkillers because he wasn't in pain.

And so that's a really tangible one that you can test.

Most people with thriders have great benefits from saunas and in particular infrared swanas, because vessel dilation is stronger.

So there will be one reason it's pain management, but it's also like if you exercise a lot.

Infrared saunas have been known for a long long time time by sports people and sports teams to flush out the lactic acid, which means you are ready to perform again much much earlier again because you actually flush the lactic acic out and you have nutrients going to the cells.

So that's performance.

Then there is the weight loss site.

We have done a weight loss study with the University of Bington in the States.

It's not as conclusive as we can exactly quantify what the caloric value is, but it's an indications no doubt that because of the aerobic exit pasive aerobic exercise, meaning your heart moves more, that you also burn calories there.

So you sit in a sauna and most people actually enjoy that heat and you actually lose weight if you like.

So that's conclusives that you do.

It's more like the quantification we are not quite happy with.

We would like to some people say three hundreds, some two hundred in an hour creat calorieset is.

We would like to see more studies.

But it's definitely happening.

And one of the things I do want to talk to you, because we're talking.

About infra red red red red.

The wood ready keeps coming up.

And when you go into some of these saunas, they have a red light and chromo therapy.

It's called chromo therapy and you can have all sorts of lights.

You've got red, green, blue, I think, white, yellow, yellow, just for every color of the spectrum.

Really it goes from purple through to red, I guess, and orange, yellow, et cetera.

And in fact, my one has that.

And I don't know what they all do, but I normally put the red one on.

Just let it not because you can just click on the one you want and I'll leave it red one because and I thought maybe that was some version of infra red.

But it's not really, is it.

It's more just it's chromophila, being the Greek word for light.

I guess, is that's what it is?

Yeah, And you know, I think it's the fact it's it's for the mood.

I'd probably call it like some people make joy and I like the redness same here.

You know.

I think it just really helps me call my nervous Systemyeah, it can't help me con't down.

You don't have the blue light, right, So it's a good wavelength.

It's just not the same as REDID therapy, right, it's not the strength that you want.

So if you if you talk about if you want to talk about red light.

I do want to red light because we're talking about infrared.

So we're infrared as a sauna protocol, which, as I understand from what you're saying now, has the ability to penetrate your skin and you have a lower ambient temperature in the room though in the sauna room, but you still end up sweating the same, but takes a bit more, it takes a bit longer.

But when you get there, you just like crazy and it's and I can understand sort of the reaction with the fluids in your body, et cetera, and get that.

But then people talk about infrared red light therapy, not infrared, is it infra red light theorpy.

It's just red light therapy, red light therapy.

And some people think they're getting the red light therapy by the red the red thing up the top, and that's that's something totally different.

So you guys, also, clear light also has a red light therapy protocol which you can put in the sauna or you can use outside of the sawna on its own.

Let's just go through that stuff, so we can sort of split those off.

We can split red light therapy off or away from infrared sauna therapy.

So two different things, aren't they?

Oh yeah, hell yeah, they're fundamentally different.

Let me explain it to me.

I mean, if you we're going on over here, so can we have a look at it.

Yeah, sure, let's just open the box up for some people get to see.

Because you know, you've got people were and put them on their head for a hat.

I've got some.

I've seen some people ones.

Yeah, a long one that you guys have you put inside of the sawner, because so you can do.

Two things at once.

I guess then you've got ones you can just because I see Andrew Hudman says that he carries one around with him.

Yeah.

Yeah, Well this one is a portable one, and there are quite a few technical nuances to it, thank you.

So that's just a red light device and it has it's created by LEDs, So that's already a difference.

So if you think about if we go through the spectrum again, you have fine for it, which is something that is just a black heater that doesn't glow at all, that can create a particular wavelengths.

Then you go into EMD a neon forred.

The neon forred is already a little bit visible.

And then you go to red light, which is even a higher frequency, more energy in it, and that one would hate up there to a certain degree.

Yeah, no, nowhere near.

Like I wouldn't create a sauna that just runs with red light.

But you stand in a door size red light therapy device and it really makes a difference.

You feel the heat a lot, yeah, from these ones as well, And so there are quite a few different things that you really want to get right.

One is it needs to be the right wavelengths, and we normally use two different wavelengths.

You know the exact of these ones.

Well, I'll probably start differently.

I mean, I think you ask the question like how is that?

You ask the question, how is it different?

Right?

And I think the easiest way to think about that is sauna utilizes heat.

Everything evolves around raising the core temperature.

Breaking is wet, and all the benefits you get from that is a consequence of putting your body into that heat stress.

This thing is light, and yes it uses light therapies, but the benefits of off around light therapy.

And so to answer your question, there's a little bit of heat, but that's not really what matters.

It's about red light visible.

That's why if you can't look at it, it's extremely bright.

No, you can, but you shouldn't.

And if you you, you should you wear sunnies or something.

But we can put it actually on later and you'll notice, like this whole room is going to glory red.

Yeah, it's it's insanely bright.

And so, so you have this red light component which has six hundred and sixty nanometers and we're talking.

You gave us the info on nanometer.

How precise that is, Like that's a fraction of a wavelength, and so and we combine that with NEE infrared, which is invisible.

And so that's why if you put this on, it feels like half of the LEDs are on, half the eledis are off.

But that's because one is visibile the other one is invisible.

And so when those two specific frequencies six hundred sixty animeters eight hundred sixty and animeters come together, they and they are absorbed by the skin, they essentially trigger the effect called photo biomodulation.

So the activation through light in our cells, and that in turn increases our mitochondria activity, that in turn increases ATP and literally it.

Just means stop, yeah, that's good, and I'll just last.

And it just creates an influx of energy and now energy.

Yes, so we just might have to go back.

Just in terms of mitochondrial activity, like every cylinder body has mitochondria, mitochondria inside of the cell.

Yes, and of course that's our energy factory.

That's where we know we that's our where we create energy in the mitochondria.

And a GP is the outcome of factory.

An ATP being a dinner zen drop phosphate with three phosphate molecules on the zine and when one of those phosphate molecules gets cleaved off, as I understand it, that's it creates energy.

Yes, And so you need ATP.

So if you're feeling a bit tired either mentally because you know your neurons have produced at your neurons have mitochondria which produce energy as well in the form of ATOP, and so as your your arms, your muscles, well.

Everything everything, every everything does.

If you're feeling a bit tired, then perhaps this could be maybe part of a protocol for a solution.

Yeah, I mean I agree, but I think you know, our body always produces ATP and it's just a question of.

But how efficient, Well, yeah, I think at older.

And what lifestyle factors are contributing to us having a lot of energy.

Or a lack of energy, sleep, drinking piece of alcohol and what food.

And so I think some one has icebath.

But also red light therapy really helps to reduce oxidative stress in the body, which is entry reduces mitochondria function and sort of reduces ADP.

And so if someone wants more energy, wants to feel better, you need to increase a top output and healthy mitochondria means more energy.

And Jo Honers, is that because an inefficient mitochondrial system in any one individual, particularly say an older person, And I keep pointing at myself because you guys aren't an older person, because you're by definition, everything becomes less efficient.

You need to digestions and everything just less efficient.

You start to leak electrons out of your mitochondrial or out of the electron transfer chain, and that creates what they call ros ROS, which actually causes oxidaty stress exactly, and that that's what this stuff is designed to address.

Yes, it's very interesting.

So is this just for your skin or for everything?

Well, ideally for everything, I mean you should be in front of that naked for ten minutes thirty centing a distance and just energize the body.

So so.

We can turn on a bit later.

We'll do a bit of beach yet and stuff a bit later.

But so you put the cord in there, you turn it on, Yes, and it takes close straight away.

Yeah, ratty much on because it's LEDs.

It just jumps them straight away right away, no preheating times.

And then and then you said, thirty cent, what are you staying?

So let's say you've got a sore shoulder or something.

You put it in front of something.

Totally And that's actually a really good example of it that we find.

Like for me, it's really important that we actually have products that I can see the effact that is.

That's why I mentioned a thrit It is because it's actually tangible.

With all of these therapies, it's sometimes a long term thing, right, so it's really hard to quantify.

When it comes to red light and you get injured, you can feel it.

You can actually feel afterwards while this definitely has helped me for this muscle to come back to normal and so on.

So it's a really tangible therapy and to me, that's the best confirmation of works.

I want to get back different staun But I'm now fascinated by for red light or red light therapy.

So this, I guess is because it's portable, is meant to be able to use anywhere.

You can use it at the gym tap you know, like a gymnasim could actually have one, have them in the gym for charge something in them on the wall and the war You can have one of these at home and so you just turn on the lights, come on straight away.

You don't have to heat it up, and like that's not like a sauna.

It doesn't forget to eat up because it's pretty much immediate.

And you said you stand thirty centimeters aways that, yeah, how.

Far is that?

Like that's about that far?

Yea, yeah, I mean I think a ruler you can be closer, you can be further away.

But you know, I think we some have to quantify what this means, right, And so there's the best approach to quantifying that is we know that we can absorb approximately six jewel which is the coultry measurement that thank you per minute through this sort of light treatment.

And obviously we can't really absorb it, right because it's the law of thermodynamics.

It's just energy, it's sort of transferred.

But if we do six jewels per minute, and the maximum that we can sort of do per per area is sixty jewels, that you know means ten minutes because six per minute, and that was calculated on a twenty to thirty centimeters distance.

Now, if you, for whatever reason, are sixty centimeters away, you just double that time, right, and so you can't overdo it.

You can't burn yourself.

It's pretty much no contraindications.

But the distance and the intensity are important.

Is it hot to touch?

No?

No, really, say kids are going to burn them.

As a timer, you know, so even like at some point it'll turn off.

It's really pleasant.

It's a really pleasant experience.

So you guys are actually seventy and you look like and you were saying before Sebastian that you're aware of somebody who used it, and.

Oh that's right.

Product.

Yeah, so if you think about it, so let's just simplify it and say, like, it gives energy to yourselves if you put it in your So that's for mail in particular.

It energizes thour cells down there and what we found and so that's internal medical tests.

And you can argue that there are other factors that we haven't isolated and so on, but we saw an uptake or an increase in testosterom of fifty percent after thirty days of using for ten minutes on your groins.

That's for sixty year old man.

We test it in particular, and it makes sense from what we talked about before that it basically just gives the energy back to these cells so that they operate in a better more optimally.

Here you go.

And I think that the you know, people always argue, well, can I just not be out of nature?

And I think the answer is yes, Like if you like, you know, this should not replicate your morning walk, It should not substitute your morning sun to reduce cortisol.

But it's sun bazing.

But I think the problem really is that our lifestyle just doesn't support us being out in nature all the time.

And so we come from Germany, right, so winter means five hours daylight percent and so there's no way you get enough vitaminly, there's no always the sun rays and his sunset, so and I feel like that's if you turn it on, it actually reminds you of a really intense and beautiful sun rays and sunset and so it's exactly the same wavelength from Mother Nature, obviously reverse engineered into led E s and so I think it's just a to me, it's an artificial sun that you switch on without ubilate and without producing vitamin B and D.

But it's it's just phenomena because side effects.

It's interesting you to say you're honest, because not only that, you know I live in australiahare you know even in winter we have a lot of sunlight.

But you know I leave home for work when it's dark, and I don't usually don't move that side office or I'm sitting here in the studio and I don't leave home to go home, leave work to your home until it's dark.

So I literally would not and even if I did go, so I'm in the city buildings everywhere sunlight, I agree, and search for sun for hours and not even find it.

So you're right, this is not meant to replace Mother Nature, but it's there to supplement what you can't get.

From Mother if you're around.

So so just just some of the protocols.

So you got there is this portum when you got one that you can sit on your inside your sauna door I've seen that advertise on your site and it's like full length, is it right?

Well length, yeah, yeah, I mean there's so just for full transparency.

Like this is a sister brand from us.

This is called healthy right, so this is not the Clearlid pal clear right, but I think this is really for outside the sauna, but for Clearlad we have a red light therapy panel that you can put on the inside of the glass.

And the vision of Clearlid has always been to be able to stack different health modalities, right because obviously no one has time anymore, and that's a subjective for you because you know, the twenty four hours don't change, but we just seem to be busier and busier.

And so our vision has always been to if you were to have thirty minutes per day to use a sauna, and say you heat it for fifteen to twenty minutes, how can we maximize the effectiveness sure the infrareds on it and the heat.

He's great, Great, let's put rad light therapy in there.

There's now Assault in Halo that we've launched and put Assault Master people a salt in Halo like it literally it puts.

Salt in the salt so halo therapy is basically a really small particular size salt molecules put into the air so yes in the sauna.

Yeah, so you hang it on the wall.

But like when when we have kids at home that are sick, our friends and we hear or they can't sleep because they're cough, you put this thing next to them and the cough is mitigated a lot.

Back in the days, like I know, my grandfa example was sent to the ocean, you know, to respiratory.

To here like English people would be there, you go, like I knew his Russian.

I don't know his Russian guy he's born in six years but but he But I read a story about a Russian guy who a very famous Russian scientist, and his name was Nikolay Mkulovich Maclay and he was accredited he's in Ukraine when.

It was Russia.

I'm going back in the nineteenth century.

He was accredited with the discovering or proving that a black person's brain is no different white person's brain, in other words, were equal.

People used to think that a person was less of intelligence white person.

But he's a credit with the discovering that.

And at Sendi University, there's a museum dedicated to him because he came to Australia.

And the reason he came to.

Australia he guys had respiratory problems in Russia, whether whether it's not so great, and they sent him here to he someone sent him here to Australia and he actually ended up marrying the Premier of New South Wales before we were a federation, his daughter, and.

He was sent here to Australia to do his field work.

On he's a marine biologist actually, as well field work on brains, marine brains, fish brains, shark brains, things like that.

For the weather sualt yes sold First they sent him to the to Papua New Guinea and because it's in the middle of the Pacific Order Ocean, is it and the actually and he did so much well a global discovery there that actually named a coast after him court it's called the McLay It's not how we would spell m clay, but in Russian McLay coast.

And then in Australia there's the McLay University Museum at the university I'm a from for that reason, Salt Air, so I'm now fascinated I've never heard it before.

I have heard it before, but I've never heard of it in yours in this sense.

Well, And I think coming back to that right like that was.

The modality is putting different modalities exact place.

And so the is there's a vitamin D light coming out I think earlier next year, and so how can we maximize value?

And I think red light made sense because it's sort of very close to you related and so you attached it on the inside and you can do it at the same time that you do.

So you can do it at home in one of the audibles to you.

So that clears off the red light conversation around the confusion associated with infrared light saunas.

Yes, right, they're not the same.

One is heat, one is light.

But you can do as many more of these things at once.

Yeah, you can stack them on top of it.

And that's what you mean by yes, modality has been put in a stack.

Yeah, some people stack vitamins or you knowpments, but you're stacking other modalities relating to real.

Health, yeah, you know.

And just to finish off on the red light, I think there's something really important that people need to understand.

There is similar to infrared saunas.

There are all sorts of qualities out there in terms of products.

And when it comes to red light, if you want to have it in the sauna, it needs to be actually cool down so it maintains the right wavelengths if it heats up, if LEDs heat up.

This one, yeah, well, this one is not one for a sauna, right, Okay, even though it does have a fan, But in the sauna, you really need to maintain the right temperature.

In that right side the inside the red light yes machine.

Well yeah, so if you're an infrared sauna, so that's a hot environment.

Light for you is like what sixty degree?

You see you do it?

That's pretty impressive.

By the way, Then you really want to keep the red light therapy device cooler so that it pushes the right temperature and that's sort of the right wave wavelength out.

Is that the reason you attuch it to the glass.

No, we have been thinking about an engineer solution of actually sucking in old cold air through through the glass and all the rest.

So it became a little bit too complex, not for this year.

But but what we found is that the fans already cool it down there's a couple more things.

It shouldn't flicker.

So Johanna's actually do you want to expand on why flickering is not so good?

So you know, again technology, it all sounds red red light.

It's all LEDs, but the LEDs that flicker and non flicker.

There's optics that do certain things not do you want to quickly touch on that because I love how you explain that.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar to the EMF and saunas right like this, there's just quality indicators.

And so with red light, everyone I think knows AC DC and you know, obviously these devices run on AC and so it's sort of the LEDs turn on and off multiple times a second, and that is essentially a stress for the human eye.

We don't really see it, but if you were to take a video on your phone and slow it down to a tenth, you'd actually see these sort of on and off frequencies and that produces stress on the eye.

And so therefore, you know, you really want to make sure that there's a null flicker or low flicker.

Red light therapy then it needs the right wavelength.

We talked about that, and the intensity is really critical like it needs to really have a strong output and not just be a chromo therapy, right because you know it has the same wavelength or more or less, but the intensity and the way it's delivered, it's just nowhere near the intensity.

What this is telling me though, is that.

Not all red light therapies and did all infra red sawners are equal?

So everything, It's a truth for so many devices.

And the reason why I wanted to get you, guys on is so you can explain that.

And I just think that and we're not here to necessarily pump up the tires for the clear line.

But at the same time, people should do the research.

That's it, and hopefully when a part of today is about giving people enough insights to make make sure that they do the work on this and or go or just go straight to your website and by what of yours?

But it doesn't matter, just do your work.

Just a couple of quick questions if I might be in the interesting time, guys.

The first thing is the first thing I want to ask you is how long in it's on and what temperature?

Look and how often?

Yeah, I mean, I think the common misconception misconception is long that's better.

And I think in some way it's true, because you want to hit that stress ceiling and so you know, you want to sort of have the adaptive response to that.

But ultimately there's no one perfect length.

You really have to listen to your body because obviously the otherwise you might faint and you might sort of be unconscious and die.

Like I'm obviously putting a bit of drama around and that you know obviously doesn't really happen, but it could happen.

So as a rule of thumb, especially if you're a newbie to saw on Us, you know, try to do fifty to twenty minutes, you know, maybe do fifty to fifty five degree celsius.

And that's right.

Did I start off at fifty minutes and I start off at fifty degrees and I just slowly over the world, build it.

Up, build it up to see what I could withstand great?

Can I talk about this really extreme case that you might be completely toxic.

So we used to have painters wanting to get out of like the lead, the lead that they you know, absorbed over the lifetime of painting with lead paint and so on.

These people often have such detox effects that you actually don't heat up with the sauna at all, because this is a difference to hot rock sauna where you need the heat.

So you can actually open the door up and you have room temperature in it.

The heaters will still deliver the infrared into your body.

To me, that makes it really clear.

It's different to just hot air that is around you.

And even though there might be only twenty fifteen to twenty minutes in there in the beginning, they still have detox effects.

But this is how we slowly build up to a longer period of of using it.

But you can be really gentle with you.

We often say to first users, do twenty minutes, do it just to forty degrees.

If that is good and you feel good next day, then obviously you can push that further.

But if you go into it and you do sixty sixty minutes on sixty degrees like you do straight away, it will not be pleasant and it might actually be not great actually for a system.

So it is something that you just want to experiment a lot and slowly build up and really read your body.

Another thing, if you can hold your thought.

One more yep that I'm so excited about is the finished study that is not only infrared, but it's in general heat therapies.

It was a twenty years study that actually renewed it recently of two eight hundred men over twenty years, a mobility study meaning like who who's dying when, and they could see a correlation between you use the heat therapy like an infrared sauna, like a sauna like a like a spa five times or more you live on average ten per week.

Yes, sorry, you live on average ten years longer.

That's pretty conclusive after looking at that extra ten years.

But right, and you know, but but you know that's this is then the health spent versus lifespan.

I would also argue you using a sauna makes you feel better and assists your body to have a healthier body longer anyway, so that was not specific for in saunas.

But to me, it's like I love people to hear that that there is actually really hard research which clearly shows that you have you have a better quality of life and you live longer when you use HITT therapy like INFRITZNA.

And just quickly food no food before no food, no food and water.

You need to increase water before you go in or during the after.

Like a lot of people when they sauna for the first time, especially in an infrared sona, they say out on sweat, and so it takes a couple of sessions for the body to actually get used to that.

But one of the reasons could also be that people are just dehydrated.

And so if you think about we're seventy percent water, if we're not hydraded well enough, a are performance is lower, we don't sleep as well, and there's a lot of studies out there.

But also we cannot sweat right because there's literally no excess of water to get rid of.

So if you increase water intake, you're going to sweat more profusely'ch just gonna better for the skin detoxifone more and whatnot.

So as a rule of thumber, I would probably say have at least half a liter of water half an hour before, half a liter during, half a liter after, and add some electrolytes and minerals in there.

Okay, it was it was interesting about that I put a glass of water in the in the sauna and the it's a cup, it's actually a ceramic cup.

The ceramic heats up, but the water doesn't.

Well, the ceramic heats up at a faster rate.

Yeah than the water, better heat connectivity.

Interesting, but I always have.

Specific sauna bottles though that they're literally engineered to keep the.

Water about the sauna hat I come with the felter a picture on head.

Yeah, yeah, so explain why they're important or perhaps.

I mean, you know, like typically they're actually more you to traditional saunas or bunyas, like the Russian hot saunas.

And the idea is obviously that the ideas that you can stay in the sauna for longer.

That's the first reason.

And you have to if you sit in a sauna.

Obviously, hot air rise to the top, so at the top when you're in a public sauna, that's where it's the hottest, and so your head is naturally always exposed to the highest amount of heat.

But and I'm sure you would probably confirm that, like, the reason why you want to leave the sauna is not because your knee or your toes or your belly is hot.

It's because your head is hot and you just have the feeling you can't stand it anymore.

So the heat is going to resolve that, and it's just going to give you a couple more minutes.

But the second thing is that excessive heat and we're not really talking about an infrared sauna, but more about traditional saunas.

It's actually shown to reduce hair growth, right, and it's also shown to reduce fertility and sperm count.

So that's the head takes care of that.

No, no, let's get that.

But that's that's the truth.

And you know, typically people don't wear them in the inforetsuna because you don't have the same temperature.

We also designed it that way, so from an aeriovedic point of view, you don't want to heat the head.

It's not considered healthy and the head doesn't have the same ability to cool down in the rest of the body.

Therefore, our heater is a normally shoulder height depends a little bit on hot, tall or short you are, but the idea is really the main benefit to your body comes from infrared pointing towards towards your body, and actually that's something maybe worth mentioning as well.

Infrared therapy is directional, which means normally, if you if you heater to the left and to the right, that side of your body gets a good exposure to infrareds infrared therapy.

It does move around and there is an overall benefit, but you really want to have a heater in front of you, and you said where your calves are definitely down there as well and all around you, because only then do you get the most benefit from it.

That's why you have these really strong heaters on the front as well, because it you know, it works as belle fait, which you know most people have more on the front than anywhere else.

But but overall it's all below the shoulders because heating it up.

So if you where you're head, that's great because it actually protects it from getting I would love to see it.

Yeah, right, like you got.

The styles one like like some go up and all with some sort of and finally two more questions.

The second last question I have for you is morning or night depends?

I need say that andeering.

It's always more complex than so you know, I know that you you told us before that you sauna at four typically, and that's to be honest, it's a great timem PM, yes, and so it's it's a great time to sauna.

And so statistically, for instance, we know that most world records are created on four or five PM.

That's when we're a peak performance.

So if you sauna at that time, you probably at your peak performance, which means you can probably endure heat stress longer.

So that's I find it quite fascinating because I think naturally seem to gravitate to the time.

Anyway, a lot of people do it before nighttime, and we talked about the parathmathtic and the nervous system up and down regulation essentially, and the reason why people tend to do that is that they really feel like they want to leave the day behind, take the smartphone away, and just have forty five minutes to themselves.

And there's truth to that too, right, because you know, we sweat, we relax, we take our thoughts of something else, we do something that feels hard in that particular moment, and afterwards we come out.

But we've done a study with AURA and two German universities in order to try to figure out and we try to figure out like what's the optimal time and what's like of the day, and what's the optimal duration And the answer is that really isn't It really comes down to what is your personal goal.

So someone who would sauna in the morning they will probably do that to kicks out the day, to get a bit of an influx and energy.

And and you know neon fred in particular helps to reduce cortisol like, so it sort of reduces our bodies stress home on in the morning, which is typically when it's high is and so we take that out of cells kicks out the day, and we've measured that the readiness score, which is I think or in whoop it's called strain.

So it's yeah, you're right.

So just so explaining you're on the owerring is called readiness score.

On the on the whoop, it's called strains to r ai N and it's a it's a blue circle that tells you what your strain levels are.

Great, and so you want to have low strain in order to be great.

So you want to keep your strain as well as possible.

You want to build it up as much as possible to say get adaptation to resilience.

Yeah great.

And so I think with Aura, we've seen that people who saw it in the morning with the intention to actually have a good readiness score, they have a higher readiness score throughout the day and they tend to then sleep better.

The people that tend to use a sawn at night.

They tend to do it in order to regulate the nervous system and to sleep better.

And what we found is that that that that is true.

So people tend to sleep better, but only if they do it at least an hour to two hours before bedtime.

And so that's interesting, right, because time cool down, That's exactly it.

And I think also like what tends to happen with our blood pressure and our temperature towards nighttime is it goes down, right, so our body essentially well just drives down.

The functionality and everything sort of come calms down, regulates, and the sauna, because it's heat stress is actually upregulates us in that morning.

And so if you want to do a sauna at night, don't do the same intensity and try to sort of build a delay in between having the sauna and then going to bad And our internal study is essentially seeing that that yields the highest sleep scores measured by HIV.

And I guess at the end of the day, if you get a better sleep school, and this is getting back right down a basics, so but if you if you get a really good sleep score, in other words, you sleep well as a result of sauna.

If you're if you sleep well, you can probably.

The next morning you can try better, you eat better, and then and if you train well generally speed, you don't feel like a lot in a whole lot of crap.

You just generally speak.

You just need the right stuff.

And they're the three basics and the there are other things, but there are the three basics in terms of longevity and also you know health span as well.

So I think we'll wrap on this.

But like I think that just I really appreciate the getting into the weeds with you guys.

Hopefully our audience likes it too.

But we got into the weeds, which is really important for me anyway, and I wanted to share with the audience.

But I think that sauna protocols, particularly what I considered to be the better one, infra red sauna protocol, as part of your overall strategy for living longer and better.

It's not going to stop you from getting cancer.

It's not going to stop you from getting maybe it may assist in delaying cognitive issues, but apart from that, it just puts you in a better spot to deal with these things.

If they have a sort of before us.

And or if you're one of those lucky people who these things don't ever before, you know, you may have some genetic blessing, then you will live a better life with less perhaps through dick exposure, you know, just generally feel and feel better.

So at the end of the day, we all have to choose that protocols.

You know.

Again, some people, some people just been hearing a lot about saunas the NBCE Brian Johnson stepping out of his sauna with his shirt off and talking about how important it.

Is and blah blah blah.

Which is why I thought i'd get you guys on because I just think we need to dig into it all and get away from the popularity of the trendy stuff, you know, the cool stuff, you know, the flashy stuff, and just get into the depth of this.

And I really appreciate you guys coming down to Sydney.

Do you both live in Byron out both?

Well, I'll come see.

I'm going to be there this weekend.

Beautiful.

Yeah, I'm going to tomorrow.

Actually I'm back, yeah, come back so I'll get the details of sam me and comes out of life.

Yeah, there were one thing I just want to Yeah, we really feel it's important, you know, Like this is constant debate of traditional versus infrared is one better than the other, And I fundamentally think it's the wrong question because I think the research is quite clear that consistency is what drives it.

And so if we talk about traditional saunas, they're great, like it's a social ritual like that.

There's a lot more studies actually on them.

Although infrared are kitching.

Up, they've been around longer time.

That's why exactly longer, you know.

But I think an infrared so on it because it only takes you ten to fifty minutes to preheat and you do thirty minutes and you can do red light and blah blah blah at the same time.

It actually just makes it so much easier to use on a day to day basis.

And I think that should be the goal.

Ultimately, everyone should choose what works for them.

If you can do a traditional sona five to seven times a week because.

You have that life, stay great, go for it.

But I personally, and I think a lot of our clients and friends and families say, and infrared is just so much easier to integrate into the day to day.

Might they hit it pretty quick too.

Minors are like like he gets to lead about twenty minutes, like up to fifty five or something, and I usually gone about fifty five and to sit up at the sixty I think.

The clear one goes sixty five or seventy of what does it go.

To seventy eight?

It depends.

Push it with you know city cave of total fusion that some of these commercial partners.

I'll run these for twelve hours straight and then they get to eighty eighty.

Wow.

But you know, I think I don't need to get that hot, by the way, exactly, And I think the idea really is that you heat up with the in for it together.

Yeah, So I go in when it's probably forty five, and then I set it to the maximum.

By the end it'll probably be sixty and then I step out.

So what you're saying, you don't need to heat it up to sixty for example, and then jump in and sit in there for three Really more.

About the heat is the heat does need to be to have the right surface temperature, and that typically takes ten minutes, and then after that they deliver the right frequencies and then sure if you want to go and it's sixty, go for it.

But you can go in when it's forty five and then just go heat up with the with the temperature increase.

Yeah, so we're saying, like the most comfortable one is when it's above body temperature.

So if it's forty's that's perfectly fine.

And if you think about my example with the painter, there was no it was room temperature.

Anyway, it still delivers the therapy, so that's good.

So that means you don't have to wait as long.

You just say, okay, this is like I can go by the way you go naked in an inf it so on.

Some people ask that, and that's the best delivery because there's no fabric in between.

But you sit down and then it already starts to help you, so you don't have to wait until it's completely the temperature you love.

In fact, it's probably easier when you sit in like a frog and is slowly increasing temperature.

You know, you don't feel it as much as if you go straight away in your sixty sixty degrees it would be quite hot straight away.

It's quite a colng and and just for those people who are listening, door opens in or out door open.

The door opens when you inside, is the door open your moods or outwards.

When you sit inside it opens outwards.

That's perfect because because people getting nervous by that stuff.

You mean, it hasn't been true like I can kick it out.

Yeah, that was one of the things for me.

That was one of the things really important.

As soon as I said, fuck yeah, I can if something happens, you know, because I'm doing online and I can just you know.

And if we talk about that fear, if you think about traditional saun us, they are built really sturdy.

It's three face, it's it's a proper install often versus like you know, these infrared saunaus are normally quite lightweight, so I would actually say if something goes wrong, and again, the temperatures are not as high anyway, and it's not as grunty as like a big glowing rock sort of like heat on the side, you can actually always get out, so.

There's nothing really hot in there.

You confirm yourself there's nothing really hot in the side of the face.

Touch the heat long enough, yeah, but there's no like that thing with the hot.

Rocks on the yea.

Well, thanks so much.

Guys, Johannazan is Abash, thanks so much.

I really appreciate its.

Great Yes, that's your pleasure.

Thanks for having us