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Welcome back to This is why we fight, real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This is part two of my sessions with Sam and Emma, who are working on reconnection, clarifying their priorities, and trying to find alignment about what's next for them in their long term relationship after their kids move out of home.

The homework I assigned for them was for Emma to reflect on her needs in this relationship moving forwards and to list them to share this session.

I asked Sam to write down tangible action points of how he can prioritize his relationship with Emma and write a list of wise to keep him on track when his default behavior of minimizing the impact of choosing other commitments over the relationship rears its head.

If you haven't listened to the first session yet, go back and start there.

Let's jump back in.

He's Sam and Emma.

All right, guys, that's really good to see you again.

I'm keen to hear how things went in the week.

If we start with Sam around how was it just trying to do their exercise?

So before we actually go into because we'd asked you to have her think about some action points of like what can I actually implement that will mean that I'm prioritizing my relationship, And I think the other one was kind of getting your whys together?

You know, why is this important?

Why am I doing this?

But even in just sitting down and doing the exercise, I think I'd like to know, like was it difficult?

Did you find there are like barriers even mentally to kind of get over or like you know, whether it's reluctance or frustration or actually you know, it was really easy and I came up with some good things.

What was the experience of it, Like, yeah, I.

Didn't find it easy, but it wasn't I also didn't find it difficult.

I think it sort of flowed when I went from the tangible actions to the whys.

I found the whys.

Easy because they were directly related to the tangibles, right, Yes, And then I suppose then I understood the purpose of the exercise and it was good because it wasn't just about us, It was about the barriers that impact us.

Yeah.

And I actually did these wiles at work, so, which is obviously a big barrier.

In terms of our relationships.

So I was it was good in terms of knowing to prioritize us and the impact that has on us as a couple.

And then on the flip side, understand the impact that the barriers of work and other factors outside of our relationship, and how it's really important to prioritize us first and then put the others in the background and things will still get done.

Yeah, I suppose that's what I found easy.

And even those it's doing it at work meant well, I can do some of these things at work.

I can still prioritize our relationship even though I'm at work, yes, you know, And even we.

Caught up for lunches today and beautiful.

Yeah, I think we've probably had a week where we well, I know I have been more conscious and waking up and going, don't put all the twenty five things and then to get done at work in your head first.

Put Emma in your head first, and then work the other things around it.

And that works like it's yeah, I suppose that's a new way of thinking for me, and some of my actions are related to that too, where like my first action was just that we go for a morning walk three times a week because it's us time great and enables us to do what we're doing now and sit down and talk together about all the things that are.

Going on in our lives.

And that's not just together, it's the separate things that are going on in our lives.

And I think then we sit down and we come home, we have a coffee, and we.

Like, just that process is going to be a really good contributor to putting Emma at the forefront of my thinking and then working everything else around it.

And then like on the flip side of that.

I've put to get home before five at least twice a week.

Again, so just starting the day is probably easier because we started the day together, but then getting to the other end of the day prioritizing Emma and going Okay, I'm out of here, I'm shutting the computer, I'm turning the phone off, and we're going to just come home and prioritize whatever it is we do.

Like I've sort of added into there that we sort of go for one midweek dinner or just to not just come home and it's the same all the time.

So I suppose a theme in my tangibles was to create those.

Routines, but not make them to routine.

So do the routine differently, you know, Like I've got the morning walk three times a week.

We might do something else on the other two and then some of my other things.

We're like to have a like a group or group team project for us each month to work on it together on our times off, like and it might be panting the house, it might be you know, it could be different things, but having something that we're both invested in together where we're like, no, that's our priority.

I'm not going to play golf, I'm not going to catch up with the boys.

Whatever it is.

We've got this project to do, and we gave ourselves a month and we're going to get it done.

So you know, we are in the process of football and so we.

Emma's in the process of punning the house, and it's like, no, I'm going to jump in on that because it enables us to do something together, to sit back and actually go, hey, we did that together.

Yeah, that's a really great one.

That was I like the per month idea because it just you know, it might not be the paper the whole house in a month, but I'm not let's get that room done in a month and just we have a like at an end point as well.

So for me that's important because it's like, well, like you with your homework, I'll.

Do it the last minute.

We've got three months.

To do this, but it's like, you know, like a month of these four weekends and we've had to weekends we've been away or whatever it is, We've got to get this done.

So just having that real focus of a goal.

Yeah, that's a really fantastic one.

Honestly, that one I'm very impressed by.

I think having something to work on together is great.

Yeah.

Well, I think because it is in the background and we've probably had some conversations just work around that.

In terms of prioritizing the house over work and other things that are gone on.

In our life.

But it's about saying, okay, well, it's got to be a balance.

We've got to do home stuff and together stuff.

As well as And that's why this is good timing, because we are coming to our I suppose off season where we do get our weekends back and how sad days back, and it's easy just to fall into that, right, well, let's go and do what we did last year, and in those weekends off like I've really sort.

Of gone, right, well, okay, you know you're currently painting.

Let's get let's do let's put the house in the parts and do a month and.

That might only take a weekend.

I've got in here, like go for a lunch on a Saturday Sunday or a weekend together a month as well, so even in that month, it's not just well we've got to get the room painted, well, we've also got to spend one of those weekends either away or.

Go out for lunch or whatever.

So it's like I've got it's almost like I'm trying to fill the four weekends with almost but there's only one weekend where i can go and do what I want to do, and it if it's a goal for what you know what I mean, Like, so I suppose I've broken that month into four works and gone, well, if I give three of those to us, yeah, and it doesn't have to be through.

But I suppose it's better to go bigger than smaller.

And then if you give me an extra one I want.

And I was like, oh, no, we've gone too far in the other direction.

But that's my way of thinking.

That's the easy mode of plan in my head.

And if it makes sense.

I can't do that this weekend, I'm not.

It's back up.

I can say that though, like Emma speaking theres, I hate that but does have is not a.

Person that's like, I'm not someone who goes you talk to.

No, you're not.

I'm not saying it that way.

I'm just saying I'm someone who needs to go.

These are the things I have to get done in this block of time, and that means I have to say no to that opportunity that arises that draws away from.

Us, because I'm very good at going.

Yeah sometimes, And the other thing I had was like develop a hobby or a recreation activity that we can do together.

So we've sort of explored pickleball a little bit.

And just even if it's not one, it's like, let's go and hit the golf ball this weekend.

It's gone.

Yeah, So just do something that we do together that's fun.

We like sport, we like those things.

So just using that as an opportunity to connect as well, that's fun.

Like I've come from quite a competitive sporting.

Background and I need to let go of that little bit and use recreation sport in a fun way and not being so reliant on competition and being judged and.

Like coming first or second or not second.

That that's not that's not acceptable.

No, is not okay.

But that's yeah.

The other things I say, the walk the home before five two times a week, a project, a lunch or a week and away together a month and then like a midweek dinner, drink out per fortnoe.

That could just be a walk at a picnic, but it's not going bloody that dinner.

But yeah, and then just yeah, coming up with in that again, if the old month old year, just let's go and do pick a ball this Sunday or racquetball or whatever it is, both volleyball, or something that we just do that's not a walk.

Because we walk quite a bit.

That's stiff for any nature that there is a little bit competitiveness, but it's not Yeah, relationships, I'm somewhat but it's fun.

It's fun, It'll be fun.

And it's interesting to see for you, Emma, where there is a little bit of discomfort where you know, in in seeing and hearing Sam prioritize you and the relationship, there's a little bit of like, oh, but it's okay that you can also have your own life and you can also enjoy your stuff, which is interesting to watch because he's I see Sam really stepping up and going, okay, I haven't been prioritizing the relationship.

I need to change how I think.

I need to change how I put things in place so that I can and I know it's what you want.

But there's a little yeah, discomfort, well.

Shock, No, I think like when Sam's always known since I've many I'm pretty independent.

Yeah, and it stems from background and being on my own for a while with the kids before I met him, when I separated the first time, and I got really used to doing my own things and creating this space for myself that was you know, at home, and then you know, the few friends.

That I've got and even just like.

Doing things with the kids, and so I have been craving doing more with Sam because you know, as our lives evolving, like we've talked about it, and the kids you've got.

Their own thing.

You know.

Sam's been really good at carving out like, Okay, great, well I've got to fill my weekends with this, and I obviously haven't been as good with filling my time.

So I have been like, great, can we also do some things together, And hearing him talk about it, I'm you know, I'm really excited for it.

But at the same time, I don't know of four weekends.

Like, yeah, no, I love I'm not.

I'm not trying to be negative at all, because I do.

I appreciate that, Like it's nice to look forward to things together.

It's a little bit of us utopia about it.

Yeah, And I.

Think that's someone that is that likes doing like I'll take myself to the movies.

I'm okay with it.

I like that.

Yeah, I like that's the schedules more.

Just that made it easier for me, Yeah, to write down.

So yeah, and I think it makes sense if we know that Sam's tendency is to not prioritize the relationship as much as he should.

If I think if he aims for like what he has done now, because inevitably life things will happen.

It will be a meete's birthday, it'll be X y Z, something really important.

Well, you know, life things will come up.

So if the goal is is the way where Sam said it now, I think that that's perfect because you will probably notice that there'll be small things that will get in the way that can't be worked around, and that will be fine.

So you'll probably find that it will feel quite even out and nice.

But you know, when there's not much going on, Sam has that relationship as the priority.

And yes he's got one weekend out of four with the boys, or you know, whatever he wants to do by himself, doesn't matter, but it will inevitably probably work out to feel a bit more even.

I imagine that's probably we've taken small steps, and probably small steps hasn't worked, so like we need to do this, go the other way, make it fairly heavily invested in, and then if it's scale back a little bit because of what life throws at us, and it'll feel better than what it did in the small steps approach.

So that's probably.

Just that just helps me prioritize to have it, yeah, more heavier than lighter.

Like it's easy to well, i've only got one weekend, it's sort this out.

I'll do this, but but I've got a plan.

This I got and I'm not a great plan so it's it allows me to do that, to go right heading into this week.

We we've got to get that project done or we haven't done, and that's tivty.

Get this week.

I'll sort it out sort of thing.

If it gets called off, that's okay.

But even in that, I think the effort side of things.

Is that's the important.

Like, now go and organize that we played beach volleyball and it range for three days, but it's not it's you know, well, I could have looked at a heading on what's going to run.

I won't buy the organizing.

That's probably healthy way out, but I'm just well, that's probably what yeah, we need to do, so do you no?

No, no?

And I also look at it sounds like no, I don't want to answer this one.

You think like I get like, I know you well enough.

You need to have things planned, don't you, like, as you know, I know you say you're not a great planner, and partly that's true, but you know, we both have that tendency.

But do you think that it's easier for the weekends if we do have things scheduled, Because when it comes to it, because you have been you're in an environment where you have so many months of like everything scheduled for you for work, that when it comes to like a free for all weekends, it's harder.

And so you like, that's where we tend to fall into this trap of like not doing things together.

Yeah, if it's planned Monday that we're doing this on Saturday, Sunday, we'll be going away whatever it is, then it takes out all.

The variables of the world.

Whereas if it isn't planned and we decide on Friday, Oh but I've already organized.

See yeah, you know what I mean.

So for me, I need to work into the week to go we're doing this on the weekend.

Yeah, So when the phone.

Call comes or the invitation comes or whatever it is, it's like, Okay, I've got this one.

You know what I'm like, and I do get a lot of that, all right, No, I'd love to.

But I can't look And if it's something that you're like, oh, yeah, I've organized something with Emma, but you know it's it's best mate's birthday and it really is something that I feel I should attend.

That can be a discussion between the two of you, know what I mean, Like, it's not that now I'm like, oh, no, I have to miss out on all these things, Like surely they'll be flexible, but I agree you want something structured and put in place, and then if flexibility is needed, discussions can be had and it can be you know, worked out between the two of you.

Yeah, I understand.

I'd rather come on Monday saying hey, listen, this has come up.

What I reveget Now, let's but can we'll go next week in let's do that together.

Yeah, yeah, rather that than it gets towards the end and it's like, oh, did you know about that?

You know what I mean?

Like, yes, yeah, what's say Emma, what was the face of what's happening?

When we come back, I'm going to try to understand what Emma's body language and facial expression is trying to communicate stay with us.

What's Emma's say, Emma, what was the face of what's happening.

I sometimes get the feeling that Sam will not be completely transparent about things that come up, and it'll be sort of like, I don't know if you're afraid to tell me because like I'll lose it or something, because.

Yeah, it's like I'm non committed on the other things.

I'm like, I don't know.

Yeah, I think we're meant to be going, you know.

What I mean.

Whereas I need to just come home Monday and hey, my friend said, look, do you want to do this on the weekend.

I'd love to.

We put off that.

Yeah, no worries.

But I'll leave that conversation Friday where it's like almost she can't say.

No because that's right.

So he'll leave the really last moment, and then I'll feel like the worst person.

In the world that behavior.

Yeah.

Yeah, And you'll sort of fib a little bit and be like, oh, I just found out about it, you know.

But then I'll find out through your conversations because you know, we have the same friends.

And I'll be like, oh, okay, you've known about that.

This schedule exists, like I know I'm about it.

But is it because you're afraid I'm going to like and be like, this is crap.

I'm just torn between what I what should I do?

So would be decided you can go to priortize us and go and the conversation Monday is Piz.

Listen and now we have this plan, but this has come up.

What are you reckon?

It's an AUSS decision, not a MA.

And some of those you might make yourself, Sam and like you may not even include.

And if you sort of get an invitation, you're like, oh, and then you think, you know, you know what, we never haven't spent that much time together, or you know, she's had a tough week.

I think even though it's Blah Blah's birthday or whatever, I'm gonna say not.

Some of them you may do yourself.

The other ones I think it's just chatting to her of like, hey, I do think I should attend this thing?

Can we move ourt thing to another day?

Or are you're right?

Emma might be like, yeah, I actually I'm happy to go do my own thing.

I want to go to the movies, I want to do whatever.

You know, Yeah, I think what I'm thinking now is like that those sort of things have come up quite a few times.

And what's happened is it's not the we're not doing things together, it's the feeling like you.

You haven't talked to me about it.

You learn about it, and I feel a little bit like, oh, well, I must be like a really hard person or person because you can't talk to.

Me about these things.

And then I kind of then I probably spiral a bit and know, well, you know, like what else do you feel like?

Why don't you talk to me about this stuff?

Probably just with like if I look at my whys and what we're talking.

About now, like the curly things of why I want to do these things is to learn to communicate with em and better to spend time to just like chilling out together and prioritizing Camma, and then also like some of the stuff like to better develop our teamwork, like to work together more on things that are out have their comfort zone.

But then I feel like that will help my sporting background.

When you work in a team, that makes it really easy to have to go conversations together because you've been through certain adversities on the sporting field.

And you've got to communicate as a team, right like you paralleling.

That with us if we do some of those things are out of our comfort zone, and then those difficult conversations will that I find difficult become easier because we've done those things together.

So and I said, like to be.

Able to be better at doing those recreational things together because that's me coming back from my competitive nature and in some respects you're going more towards that competitive nature because that's out of.

Your competition as well.

So and then other thing else it is to break the citle of the week, like to get out of the routine that we're currently in and to add some spontaneity to what we do.

But it's also within a routine that we're now trying to create.

So initially it'll feel spontaneous, Oh we're going to do this, so we're going to do this, but that I suppose spontaneouy will come through the variety of things that we do, but it'll be a bit of a routine.

And the routine theme is that we you know, we prioritize each.

Other more often.

And let's go to maybe some of the potential pitfalls right of the plan.

You know, which I think Emma, you sort of started with there with yeah, sort of what we know about Sam and previous behave.

So let's say there's this habit of in the past, yeah, not being forthcoming about something else.

That's that's that's on, and you know, what will you do Sam if something like that happens and there is something coming up and you're like, I really want to go, but I shouldn't, but it is something I feel.

You know, if that happens, how are you going to because your default will be just don't say anything until it's last minute, and then she'll kind of have to say yes, you know.

See that's the default.

I think having like these sort of pillars in the background of we're going to do those things every week together, we're now able to have that give a conversation easier on Monday morning walk where it's hey, listen, i've got this coming up this point.

I know when meant to, but let's have to think about like what do we want to do, so.

All those moments in the week.

Yeah, yeah, I think those moments in the week where we've become you know, we become we spent prioritize time for each other it'll make the conversations easier to have.

Like it's it's almost those some of those situations therefore that like.

Yeah, you almost can't avoid it.

You can't avoid it, particularly somewhere where we do talk.

So it's an easy one to you know, almost say, right, what's coming up this week?

Well, we've got a couple decisions to make around whatever it is.

So yeah, that's part of that schedule to some degree.

And I do think that if we have those you know, few touch points during the week which we can tend to not have any and yet we we're busy, so for big chunks of the year, we just you know, we sort of can't do anything during the week.

You have very long hours, you can get stuck there until.

Very late at night at your work.

And so then I think, what, from my perspective, what then happens is when it comes to the weekend and there's sort of this concept of maybe it's just my concept that we're going to be doing things together or something, and.

Then you're like, oh, but by the way, I'm going to go do this.

That's when I can tend to go, oh, okay, so not prioritize, like I'm not Pronia.

But I do agree.

I think Sam that like just having it like not you don't have to do everything together every day, but like you're having a couple of things well you know, like like you said, that's great, Like I walk in that those sort of things would be great because then if it does come to the weekend and there is stuff, yeah, it's it doesn't for me.

I don't think then I'd feel like, oh, well, I'm not I'm not.

Yeah, I'm just like so far down the rung of other things that come up that because all week you've had other things, you know, And I.

Sort of feel like that the energy investing in us will create.

More energy for us.

Yeah, you know, I.

Mean like if there's time and effort going into right, let like we're getting out of bed, we're going for this walk where you know, I am coming home.

Early this afternoon.

You know, I'm just going to make sure I shut up the books at five.

Like that, that will create opportunities for us to have those conversations and do more things together, and it'll give us time.

Where potentially it's like it could be coming home early and stay work.

You know, that would be But yeah, like little things like that where you're like, look, I come home early from work and you're like, hey, I've got A and C to do.

Well, sweet, I'm going to go and pay nine.

I was a fight, but because we've we're putting the time and effort in, Whereas at the moment it's like, oh, I'd love to go and play nine because it's a sunny afternoon, but I.

Haven't got the time in with them at Yeah, that's right.

So having that there, the time I'm putting in will probably buy time to do our own thing as well.

Absolutely I can go play nine Homes with you.

Yeah.

Absolutely, I'm not very good at it, but and your competitive and I just like hit.

The ball, but you know, we might start the driving right.

So my other suspicion of what could be a pitfall or just be difficult is the two nights being home or leaving work by five o'clock.

Because I think you have referenced that it is hard for you at times to say no and to and to put in those boundaries at work and sort of like I'm not here or I'm not accessible or I'm done for the day.

Yeah, have you sort of had to think about what will happen Yeah, how will you kind of be firm with those boundaries because I'm sure people are quite used to you being accessible, and yeah, it'll be a change for the people to adjust to.

There's a few things I can do at work that will enable me not to have to be relied upon for some of the things I have to stay back.

For, so delegating my outsourcing.

Yeah, absolutely, I just gotta let that go.

And yeah, again it's probably to make it most effective.

That early week chat where it's like, you know, what I'm going to come.

Home this week?

Are a b because you know there's times when you're not able to leave work at five either.

Yeah, so it's yeah, like we can prioritize together what those days are because yeah, like then we get the best use out of them as for us.

So yeah, there's certainly I can put things in place that can enable me to do that at least twice a week.

And that's what I've got twice a week.

I think the realities I could probably do it.

Three, but I'll put two there to start it, and then I think it's well those things implayers and probably feel comfortable with it.

I think I can do it more.

Yeah, Wow, I think it's good to start in a place that feels realistic.

And I think with all of this, it's all going to be an experiment.

Right, this is the original plan.

We're going to start working to this plan.

If there's something that isn't working, we chat.

We change it.

If it's not working for Emma, if it's not working for Sam, if it's just impractical, or it's actually more annoying than helpful.

Like this is all just you know, to be reviewed.

It's not set in stone, but we do want to stick to it.

While everyone's happy with it.

We stick to it, and then if there's things that aren't working, we change.

Yeah.

I think that's important too, that we like we talk about the things that aren't working and are working, Yeah, because I feel like sometimes we.

Maybe slog it things a bit and then we're not really great.

Had this actually isn't working for me?

So how does it feel, Emma to hear what Sam's come up with?

No, I think, like I said, he started to touch on things last night together.

No, I.

It felt really nice that he moll the nice that he had taken on that kind of challenge I guess or the homework and said, right, what am I going to do and not not make it a.

Flippant thing, but actually sit and think about it and think about ways.

And I think all of those things that he talked about are things.

They're not like they're achievable for us as in a relationship.

Too, they're not they're not so far like extreme, because I don't think that.

I know, I didn't go.

Into this process thinking we've got to just completely change our whole relationship.

Because that's not what it is.

We have a we have a really great basis for a relationship, but we've got a little lost, as most people do along the way because we're busy, and you know, Sam's taken on a different job, and then I've taken on a different job, and you know, and somewhere along the line, all these things that we did in the beginning have sort of not become a priority.

So it's really nice to hear like things.

And you know, I'm not a I'm not an overly gestural person.

I don't know if that's but you know, I'm not someone that needs big things.

You know, I don't need romantic trips away every weekend and all that.

I don't I don't like all that stuff.

I just prefer simple things.

So, yeah, going for a walk or you know, saying I've booked ciner forress, do you want to duck down the street and go and have it, you know, after work, or just little things like that that then it does make me feel that it is this is a priority rather than an afterthought from because we're so so wrapped up and work and like and the worksite is his friend's side as well, so like it's all enclculated, so it's it becomes everything which you're you know, Sam's really lucky to have.

But you know, it's a massive amount of blokes all together and they're all you know, and that becomes very hard to break into.

Yeah, for me to feel like, Okay, I get that you have this great work that's like a whole bunch of blokes and you all love hanging out and it's really good, and but.

Yeah, I do want to share some of that time.

Yeah, And so yeah, just little those those things, I mean, they sound great, I.

And probably very similar to a lot of things that I put down that I want out of the relationship, which is really good.

Yeah, And we will pop to that in a moment.

I guess my last question around this is do you because I know that at times it has felt yeah, like you you questioned last session whether Sam enjoys spending time with you or wants to and where does that like hearing him seeing how you know, the thought he put into it and what he came up with and how he's delivered it to you, does that feel it's been addressed a little bit?

The question in you?

Yeah, well I was interested to hear I guess how forced it was, Like, you know, sometimes when people will talk about wanting to spend time with you, they'll make up things that are so ridiculous that it's.

Like really because like you're not going to stee.

Land on the weekend, but you know the practicality of it all of you know, just going for a walk or yes, you know again we can go up to dinner, but just even being like, oh, I'm putting your dinner tonight.

Like and we've talked about that a bit this week as well.

Like it's those little things, but making the time together priority is, you know, is what I've been sort of chasing in the relationship and hearing the things that he talks about, like the ways that we can do it you know, just and having the goal at the house, which you know is great that he that I'm really appreciate SAMs acknowledge that because that is something that has been there that I know is not Sam's ultimate comfort zone to.

Be, you know, doing up this house.

But we you know, we have this house that we've owned for a few years and it really needs to get done.

And so you know, just being able to make that a priority that we both do it together, even if it's just it is only a few times a month.

Yeah, I think because in my workplace, work with a bunch of young trades, in.

The back of my mind, I don't worry about it.

We'll just get them to do it once.

They're never doing it once the but it's like being married to about five it's and none of them do any.

Of the work.

Working together to achieve something is probably what I've got out of it, where it's like, no, you're not just going to be able to get the guys to fix that and paint that.

And I think for me, those things because they're our priority.

Like to me, I see that as our priority because it's our thing, Like this is our house.

It's important, it's where we you know, have the kids.

It's where we have we spend a lot of time.

And it's nice to hear Sam make eat a priority as well, like because it is also a way of us spending time together.

Although I know for you it's probably more of.

A chore, and I'm not saying for me it's the best thing ever, but it's it's something we have to do so rather than these things like you know, so work comes first, and then mates and then you know, everything kind of below that gets pushed so far down sometimes.

Yeah, that I you know, that's where we've sort of that's why we've sort of landed here, and that is because I feel like nothing else is a priority outside of that.

So to hear Sam talk about making those things priority is like, that's all I kind of wanted to go into this about.

Is just that acknowledgement that to go forward, to be.

Able to have a life going forward, there has to be things outside of that that are a priority.

Yeah, which I think is what Sam or what I heard from Sam there in the beginning around really changing is mindset of you know that I think about the relationship first and then I fit everything else around it.

And I think that that is, you know, when it really comes down to it, our work can be important, but if someone got sick, or if something happened, or you know, like the family is always going to be number one.

And I do think that often we can get really caught up in work or projects or friends and other things, and we don't want to wait until something terrible happens in order to go I really should have spent more time with this person, or you know, like and I think that, Yeah, when you put things into perspective, I think it's okay to put the relationship first and then everything else around it.

And that doesn't mean that Sam doesn't get his own time with friends or on his own or he doesn't get to care about his work and put effort and energy in, but it does mean that he will not do it at the expense of the relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah, and vice vers sor in some sense that.

I want a love for you to be honest about the things that you want to do, and if that means.

Taking you away from us, that's okay.

So you've got to have that balance.

But I also don't want to feel.

Like I'm being a nagging or you know, I don't to have to put but like you're not if you want to do those things, I want you to be able to feel comfortable to be like I.

Really want to do.

And that will be part of the of the experiment, you know, seeing how it goes.

Do you notice that Sam isn't asking to do anything and you know, and seems a bit resentful about or something, And then you could bring that up and be like, hey, babe, you haven't you haven't said any you haven't seen your mates for a month, like well, you know, and then you might be like, oh, yeah, no, I think I've I think I've felt a bit reluctant to or you know, like you would just bring that up.

So it's just trying to find the middle ground of what this looks like for us now when we are prioritizing the relationship.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

The rest of my session with Sam and Emma after this short break, should we go to you Emma and and I think you said your homework responses were very similar in line with it sounds like what Sam came up with, But essentially your homework was to reflect on what your needs actually are quite specifically in a relationship, like what do you need?

Yeah, and I found this easy and hard at the same time.

I think I found it hard because when you're thinking about what you need, it's in a relationship, it's still two people, like, it's not just me, and I think I've never been in this relationship to change who Sam is.

Like, I don't think you go into it going, oh, well, you know, I like you, but you need.

To do exactly what I want to do.

So when you're thinking about what you need for me, it's like, well, it has to be both ways, like it has to Sam has to want those things or I have to feel like they're important to you as well.

Yeah, and maybe that was the tough part, because I do I believe.

I think I said in the home to try and think of your needs without considering Sam.

Yeah, and I.

Did that for a reason because I knew it would feel uncomfortable.

And I guess and there are different types of needs, so there are needs that are non negotiable, right, So it's kind of like, you know, it doesn't matter if Sam doesn't like it.

This is what I need in a relationship, and if you can't meet that, then I guess no one is forcing him, but it would indicate that potentially the relationship can't continue, right, Yeah, So there are some needs that actually my partner doesn't need to agree or it's just that, well, this might indicate this relationship isn't compatible.

And then there are other needs that are very important and if my partner can't meet them, we need to come to a compromise or an agreement.

And then there are other needs that you know, I would like met, but you know what, that's not the type of person they are, or it's just not going to you know, And can I get that need met elsewhere?

Or am I okay to sacrifice it?

Yeah?

I definitely didn't get to come up with ten.

That's sure.

That came up with that's fine.

Seven.

So for me, probably my number one priority is security, Which is it You might be a bit strange, but I guess for me, I know that not everything is forever.

You know always that the reality.

Of life is having been through separation before that it's not everything's not guaranteed that you're going to last forever that you're going.

But I think the security part comes from just knowing that if things aren't right, that things aren't the way you want it, sam that you're you can address that like that you can bring that up, which sometimes I kind of feel like doesn't happen because.

You know it will cause an argument or like.

Or that you you know, and I'm not great at probably pushing you for that because I'm afraid of that as well.

I don't know, So I'm not saying that things you know we're going to end or but what.

I'm saying is just having that security and relationship is really important, that feeling like everything's just not going to fall out from underneath me really quickly.

And there has been times within this relationship where I have felt that that's a very real possibility, and I think that's come from us not communicating with each other.

So yeah, so for me, that is the party.

Like I said, it's not everything is forever.

I know that, and I really want this to be forever.

But it's trusting in that that if there isn't things that are right, that we communicate a bit better about those things.

And then I guess that's My second thing was communication, which Sam and I have talked about before, that I could be too pushy with a with communication, like this.

Is my issue, what do you think?

And Sam has explained before that you take time to process that and go away and come back.

But sometimes that doesn't happen, as.

In the coming back doesn't happen coming back path.

And so.

I guess it's for me.

I'd love to find a way forward with this, Like, you know, how can we be more open with each other?

How can we how can I feel like if there is things that aren't need to be addressed within the relationship, you're going to bring them up or you're going to address them, or you know, is it just going to be that I'm going to.

Keep pushing them or I'm going to keep bringing them up and then you know, they will just.

Fix themselves or you know, because I think we've been doing a bit of that, and that's that whole like, and that's sort of why we're here.

Right because we're.

We're not We're kind of letting things just sit and not addressing them, and I've got to schedule.

I don't I talked about this last time.

I don't bring them up or I don't I don't voice them a lot because I feel that.

Probably there's no point, like it's just for that maybe I well, no, I do get the feeling that I'm being a bit.

I don't know, whinch is not the right word, but you know, just get over it, Emma.

You're you know, you're not so being a winder about it.

Just move on with it.

Kind of is how I feel sometimes, And I think.

That's because you know, Sam has been really good at saying, I'm not great at communicating.

We know this, it's the.

Way you've always been.

But for me, it is, you know, it's a really important thing.

And it even goes back to like feeling that you trust me enough.

To talk to me about things.

You know, so when we talk about things that pop up for you and I find out really last moment, like there'll be a situation with maybe something with your kids, and I won't find out about it, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to I'm just going to go and do this.

And I think you have known about that for a really long time, but it's like you've been too afraid to talk to me about it.

And that makes me feel then.

That I'm being Oh, I must be a terrible person because you cannot talk to.

Me about it.

So if I can jump in here, because they're a couple of things, so there's an assumption being made, and I think it's important to check that between the two of you.

So it's almost like doing that reflection, but you're doing their Emma, where it's like Sam when you Yeah, when you When I find out things that are important that you've seemed to have known for a while and you haven't told me, I feel like you don't trust me, or I feel that you are not letting me into your certain parts of your life or whatever it might be, right, And then I start thinking that I'm that you're scared of me, or that I must be a terrible person that I'm hard to talk to, And then checking that with him, is that why you don't tell me?

Because I'm going to guess that that's not the reason why, because you're internalizing it and making it something wrong with you is why he's not telling you because of something wrong about yourself, Whereas I'm going to guess that the reason he's not telling you is something to do with his own self and not to do with you at all.

But I'll check that with Sam.

You know, Sam, what is it about when you don't tell Emma things?

Is it because you are afraid of her or her reaction or she's difficult to talk to.

Nah, it's the two things familiar.

I sort of like to keep some things.

It's like, I'll do with this myself.

It's not for a fear of telling her or anything like that.

It's just me probably thinking you've got your own stuff that you're dealing with your kids.

I don't need to throw any more at you with it.

But I know that.

And that's kind of what I've put down here, is that the communication partner, it makes me feel like I'm not.

Iportant enough to share or talk with like that.

I am, Yes, I'm partner b to some extent because I'm not the you know, ex wife, but I'm so I'm not important enough to share the information about that involves like a massive part of your life.

And you know that that really, like that probably hurts more than anything.

And I get where you're coming from.

You're just saying, well, I'll just fix it and I don't want to burden you with it.

But where I'm coming from, it's doing the opposite sort of and it's making me feel like this relationship is just not as important as the first one, because yes, we don't have kids together, but we live in the same house, and we co raised to some extent, and we we share like lots of aspects of our lives.

But you've got this other part that you don't communicate with me about.

And then I think, well, I'm not important enough for you to communicate with And then that's when it comes into this whole security piece with me about feeling like, well, any moment now, everything could.

Just disappear really quickly, because there's parts of.

You that you keep completely secret, and sometimes I find out about them.

Like through the kids.

You know, Oh, okay, so you went.

And did that or you were talking about that, but I don't know anything about that, And I get, like I said, I get that your headspace is like I'm trying to keep that separate so that I.

Can not put that on you, But it doesn't feel like that for me.

Yeah, I suppose the reality is when you do repartner and you've both got kids others, there's always that party on both sides.

And I suppose I'm not as reliant on knowing all that from your side of things, because I let you deal in process with that stuff yourself, and if there's stuff you do need my help with or tell me and I'm probably in the same boat in that I try and deal with some of the stuff on my own because I don't want to burden.

You with it and in hearing how it actually lands, so your intention is not to burden how it lands.

Is that Emma feels unimportant or sort of left out of big parts of your life.

The reality is my daughter has a pretty close relationship with Emma and probably at times will tell you things that she doesn't tell me, which is great.

I love that I do.

I think that's really important for her.

So yeah, and I would prefer my daughter to do that.

Then it come from me, if you know what I mean, Like, if she's comfortable in that space for that to happen, I sort of don't want to make that decision.

That's her decision to make and go right, if you're comfortable talk cod it's unreal like, yeah, I suppose that's that's where Ken Burt times for.

Me where yeah?

And what about the times when it's not about your daughter or just other things like do you I guess is sort of like is there anything are you willing or open to trying to bring Emma into the fold A little bit of some stuff that you normally would have viewed as burdening, but now it's actually, oh, this is how I include her.

Yeah.

I think knowing that it has that impact on her means I'll definitely be less likely to go.

I'll just let her know and if you know, it does impact her, like, she'd move on from it, and it's probably more a positive than it is a negative, rather than holding on to it and then finding out later and it being like that impacting on a trust or security.

And because I haven't communicated it, I.

Think in previous for a while I've felt for it has been that it's.

Been the very last moment I find out about a lot of things that happen.

With Sam in terms.

Of kids or ex wife or even like things with friends and that.

So I haven't reacted great, And I know that reaction at times is like, well, I'm annoyed about that, but it's also I'm annoyed that I'm finding out about it last, you know.

So that says to me, I'm the least important person to you because I'm finding out in twenty other people know about it.

Well, so what are you asking?

I guess, because I even in this homework, I guess it's you trying to be specific about your needs and maybe so is it asking Sam.

Yeah, I intend to make the priority to inform me of things you know, and I know I will have to learn to be better at the reaction at times about things like I'm not always pleased, But I think more than anything, it's about not feeling like I'm the last person in the room to know everything that's going on with you and understanding making you understand that you're not telling me these things and me finding out some of a lot of these things through a third party.

That the security it impacts the security that I feel in a relationship because it makes me feel that.

This isn't important.

I'm not important.

Enough a person in your life to talk to about it because for me, I went in.

I would like to think that we're so far down the track in the relationship now that we are.

It's all nothing, you know, like there's nothing we don't know about each other.

There's nothing that we can't try and fix if we need to.

And that's why we're here doing this, you know, like we're trying to make sure that we can not get ourselves in a situation that we were in, you know, with the first marriage that this is going to you know, we want to make this work.

Well, that's what I'm coming from.

And so.

The big thing for me is the security of that of not knowing that this relationship will just fall out from underneath me because.

You know, you're not being honest.

And upfront and communicating with me those things that you know, I feel are important because they're part of you, and they're things that are happening in your world and things you know, want to give examples, but things that are really important to Sam.

And then I think that is something I should have known, should be involved with, or should just even have heard.

Yeah.

And you know, I can go down to you know, your work sometimes and guys would be like, oh, you know, Sam did this and we talked about this, and I'll.

Go, I had no idea about that.

And that's because he hasn't taken the time to talk to me about it or tell me about it, or.

And also maybe because you guys hadn't been having enough of that quality time.

You know.

I'm hoping that those touch moments in the week, yeah, will also be an opportunity to share a bit more about what's going on in each other's worlds and that that sort of stuff.

So I wonder if that will And maybe that's the question to Sam of like, is that something that you can share a bit more just about what's going on and you know, with your previous partner or your kids or you know, whatever is happening.

I want to know about it, even if it's annoying to year or what you know, I would just want to be across what's happening.

Yeah, I think those touch points are really important in that process.

Yeah, I do think so too.

I think that will build up a bit more of a.

Opportunity to talk about things, yeah, because we probably haven't had that.

And so to.

Address the one other point that you had there, Emma, the worry that Sam won't raise issues or things that that are bothering him or do the whole sweep under the carpet.

And my suggestion to a lot of couples is to be doing a weekly check in and that is a conversation that doesn't have to be particularly long, but it does need to be intentional around do we have any grievances, Do we have any things that have been an issue or annoying this week within the relationship, or even outside the relationship, it's impacting me.

So it's impacting how I show up in the relationship.

And look, it's usually only three or four questions long, but I would suggest having a bit of a reflection of how have I felt in the relationship this week?

You know, am I connected?

Am I disconnected?

Have we been arguing?

Has it been easy and fun?

Have we not had much time together?

You know, just a few sort of reflective questions around that, and then is there something that I need to raise with my partner that you know, maybe I didn't appreciate, or I would like us to try and do a bit differently next time, or something that's not working.

And some weeks there might be nothing great cool, and other weeks you might have a list of stuff your partner's done that's pissed you off.

You know, I don't know.

And then I would also try and incorporate something positive in there.

So something I've appreciated from my partner this week, or something I really I've noticed and I've enjoyed watching, or you made me feel really good when this happened.

Yeah, So just like three or four points of check in once a week, and that gives you the opportunity to raise anything.

I think we have a to that or haven't we book?

Sometimes we get so life that we trail off on that quick don't.

Yeah yeah, yeah absolutely, but that is a good I think we do need to do.

We could probably do that when we do a walk, we could be like, right, well they're walking, and this is what we do.

And if it's just a one like once a week thing, and you do it like you said in that routine where it's like, Okay, on our Monday walks, that's when we do it, or on our Sunday drink or whatever, that's when we do it.

But it's while you're doing something enjoyable and it's not like, oh, here we go, here's the time to raise everything that that person has done that's pissed me off this week.

It's actually it's not about making an argument, but it is about saying, how do we together tackle the things that maybe each of us aren't too happy with.

It might be going out in relationship.

So my next thing was a desire for life, which I think is you know, ties in with what you were talking about.

So just doing things together more this you know we've raised really.

We've been really lucky.

We've raised really good kids, and we.

Have had good careers or have good careers, and we have a great house.

But it's you know, just I guess for me, it's important to know that the partner.

Is someone who wants to continue life and have that kind of passion for it, not being like, Okay, we're fifty and we need to kind of just rain things back in and do nothing, which I know that Sam's not like, there's nothing in me that would think that, because intimacy for me is not just touch, it's it's language, it's conversation, it's you know, those things.

And so you know, as we go further on in the relationship, not closing that part down, not continuing to talk about our and see and things like that, it's you know, that's.

What I find is really important that talking about it's not taking me for granted.

Well, let's we can even flip that not being taken for granted means feeling appreciated, considered prioritized.

Yeah, you can just put it that way.

That's where that comes to.

You know, I think a couple of those points that's probably what for me.

I'm not yet I don't understand that because you haven't prioritized.

Emma.

Look, that's why these things have come up, because you know, the just book it scenario.

So I'm thinking about but I haven't prioritized.

I've only thought about it and then it hasn't happened.

It's sort of like an anty point that's for you.

So we're not doing that.

So yeah, and the taking for granted, same deal, Like you know, there's lots that we do and that you do and it's almost not unrewarded, but it's you know, it's just i'll do this, but just prioritize me.

A little more, and I really don't mind doing it at all.

Oh that I couldn't have said that better.

That's really basically what I what I have put down, and that is that I don't mind doing.

The kids, staff and the housework and helping it work, your work, and I enjoy those things, but I don't want to be seen as it like there can be times with our relationship that it just becomes like, well, that's.

Just you, you have to do all that.

So you know, I.

Wrote down that like just even asking sometimes if there is things to be done, rather than just expecting.

That oh, well, you do usually do that, So that's you just do that.

And so the last thing I had as a priority for the rest ship is to.

Make something special, not all things.

So I'm not someone.

Who you know, we've never done that, like I don't need to celebrate anniversaries and you know every.

Time we first time met, and but.

You know, things are important, and I think it reflect on that from the weekend.

And that is because making things like our birthday special and Christmas now and those sort of things, because as the kids are slowly leaving, they for me are ways to be able to celebrate what we have together.

And I think maybe you know, when I met you, we were a bit different in the sense that I have always heavily celebrated you know, those things because it's it is tradition within my side.

Of the family that those are big deals.

They're probably not as big from Sam's point of view.

So that's a little bit of me like saying this is a priority for me, But I think it is because it was the way I was raised, and I like that the kids, you know, and even Sam's kids have sort of got on board with some of the traditions that we have.

And so just that's just me personally, that is something that I think is important that we get to to celebrate these special things like birthdays and Christmas and Eastern and because you know, it's a way of also reflecting for me about all the years and how far.

We've come and you know, and all being back together too.

Yeah.

And so do you want Sam to be more of a part of like create, whether it's organizing, planning, just being a part of the celebration in terms of like prioritizing that it happens and that we do something and we get together and we think of what we want to do for it.

Yeah, I think so.

I do you did that this weekend?

It was my birthday last weekend and Sam.

To organize something and beautiful.

And I think that's what triggered me to think about that, as well as just thinking how much that changed so much for me.

And how important that was just to have.

It's probably the one of the first times that.

You've sort of done the birthday celebration thing that And I do think that comes from your background to do.

That, But for me, that's I think it incorporated everyone that was, Okay, we got your mum's living down.

Here now and we had everyone here.

Yeah, so yeah, like it was.

And again it's been we've gone to have a birthday dinners, or we might have had the kids here for a cake, but then because we had extended family here, but.

You you've been out of do that and organize that and plan that was just like it meant something more to me because you had prioritized that as being an important thing something yeah, just something that I really enjoyed.

So anyway, yes, so that's for me when I guess when reflected on the important things relationship and not.

You know, I didn't really.

Have specifics like you did, which was like we'd have to book these holidays and do this each month, I think.

But they were I feel like they were quite clear though around just generally what I what what makes me feel happy and fulfilled, loved, cared for in a relationship and do you I mean, for Sam, it's important I think to maybe be able to keep that list.

Maybe he can keep that list somewhere, and that's sort of like a you know, am I am?

I making sure that I'm sort of and of course Sam, if you have any needs that aren't being met, that weekly check in absolutely the weekly check in is when you can be raising that with you know, you can write your own list, or you can just chat with her as they pop up.

So it's not one way, but I guess it's the per this exercise was.

I think Emma was struggling to kind of put her needs out there without feeling guilty or feeling like she was forcing you to do things.

And so but yeah, I think it'd be great if you kept that list.

I would be intrigued as to what yours are as well.

Well, that can be there we go.

Emma's now setting homework as well.

And you know, when I was writing them, when I was reflecting on it, I was thinking, it is really hard.

I said that at the beginning, like it's really hard because you aren't just you in a relationship, you know, you are two people.

Yeah, so I could say, hey, I you know, I want to throw a party every Tuesday night, but that would be unrealistic.

That's not that's not a thing that we could do together or you'd want to do together.

So I was thinking about the things throughout.

It that what's really important to me?

Yeah, yeah, but also what is really important to us is what from my point of view, But i'd love to know your point of view.

You know, what's your point of view.

About what's important.

Yeah, that's I think that's.

Going from Monday morning chat.

And I think that like, obviously your questioning for our homework was identifying, you know, me putting concrete, tangible things.

In place, mm hmm.

Then obviously service what you picked up as potentially being amas needs.

Yeah, which I then have to hearing both sides.

A lot of my tangibles are ways of servicing.

Yeah, yeah, some of those needs.

Which is very positive.

It means that you guys are on the same you guys are on the same page.

Yeah, we'll probably good.

It's a positive for you too in terms of you been able to draw out the right questioning to get the right information from us that sort of tends to get to the root of the problem.

Emma and Sam made some really good progress across these two sessions.

I think it's clear that both of them took the homework really seriously, and I could see they put a lot of thought and effort into really trying to work through some of the things that hadn't been helping their feeling of disconnect in the relationship.

I really enjoyed seeing that both of their responses to the homework were actually quite aligned, showing that they're both on the same page and do want the same things out of a relationship.

There were just some tweaks and things that needed to be done differently in order for them to achieve a fulfilling and happy relationship dynamic.

I think one of the basics that I really would prescribe to almost I mean, I would say to any couple is to do a weekly check in.

And it's something that seems so obvious, and yet it's so easy for life to get busy and things to happen, and for us not to make the time to do that check in with our partner.

But a weekly check in can be the thing that makes such a difference.

It gives you an opportunity to communicate about things that are important.

It gives you the opportunity to communicate about also positive things that you know we might think or feel, but we just you know, as we're rushing out the door, we don't mention to our partner that it made our day that they, you know, put the coffee mug out for us and had it ready when we were in a rush to get to work and it's those little things that I think we miss on communicating and if we don't have an intentional time set aside to give that positive feedback and reinforcement, but also to bring up the little grievances, and I think without that, a lot of things get swept under the rug and go unsaid and build up into potential niggling problems.

My biggest takeaway from Emma and Sam is really that integral part of communication which couples forget about making time for can make such a big difference.

After that session, I feel a lot.

Yes, I feel a lot more relaxed than I did going into the first time.

I feel like the process over the week we're thinking about the homework and being a bit more reflective on things helped me go into this week feeling a little less anxious about things, and I think coming out the other side, it's felt really nice getting everything, you know, said that I wanted to say, and I honestly feel like I've finished that session saying everything I wanted to say, like almost to extemp where I was like, I don't actually don't know if I anything left to say to it, you know, or anything more to express, which has been really nice.

So I think coming out from this session, I feel that I'm being able to talk about.

The things I wanted to talk about, because it probably.

Was a point, you know, when I started this process that I thought, maybe I'm doing this because I'm trying to say, well, I don't want to do this anymore, because I don't think I'm fighting for anything, because I think that I'm you know, what's the point of fighting for it because we're not really on the same page, we don't want the same things, or we're living kind of very separate lives.

So it's been very nice to hear him be reflected today about no, these are things I want from place, because I do want this.

I do want to keep going down the path together.

After that session, I feel like we're sort of tracking towards the right outcomes for us as a relationship.

I feel like it is a really therapeutic and almost cleansing process to get on and be have information sort of drawn out of you that.

You might not talk about in.

Your relationship or with anyone, and it gives you a real clarity of mind wise.

To think clearly about the things.

That are a priority, and you know, both personally and your own personal health and journey and then you know, combining that with the thoughts and processes with your partner as well to make that relationship stronger and more positive too.

So you know, I think anytime you get an opportunity.

To work with and I would say someone is skilled and sort of insightful as Sarah, it only enhances your Yeah, I would say physical and mental health, because you are getting things off your chest and any mind that sometimes you don't even know that are there, but when you spoak them out.

And then also you realize the impact you're having on someone else with your actions and behaviors.

It makes you aware that you have to work at a relationship and that takes effort and time, and you have to sometimes get rid of all the other things that exist in your will to prioritize you know, that person that you love and the relationship that you love.

And there's certainly more beneficial at this phase than when you've gone to that irreparable phase.

And yeah, maybe there's probably not.

A therapist in the world that can get you through that.

Yeah, I think prevention is better than you're.

This is why We Fight was created by Nama Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilson.

The executive producer is Nama Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice motivated minds.

If you'd like to apply to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.