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Welcome back to This is Why we fight, real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This is part two of my sessions with Beth and Wayne, who are trying to learn how to communicate more openly and honestly with each other after Beth's ADHD diagnosis and Wayne's ongoing chronic pain, which have had an impact on their relationship.

The homework I assigned for them was for Wayne to observe what frustration feels like in his body to help him build his awareness of his emotions, and for him to practice bringing up small issues right then and there to build his tolerance for raising problems.

I asked Beth to watch out for moments where she gets the urge to step in and overfunction and to reflect on what's driving it.

If you haven't listened to the first session yet, go back and start there.

Let's jump back in.

Here's Beth and Wayne.

Wayne and Beth.

It's lovely to see you guys again.

Sarah, thank you for having us.

Yeah, so I'm really keen to hear what's happened over the last week since I saw you in terms of obviously this homework to check in on, but there could also be other things you've noticed, observed thoughts that came up.

After last session.

Sometimes things kind of pop up as we process later on.

So, yeah, whoever wants to kind of start with Yeah.

I think we were kind of talking about this on our way over that we haven't had that much time together.

This week, so that's been a little bit challenging.

Yeah, we've had like really busy work weeks, both of us, just with different things.

So as far as actually having the time to identify these things, that's probably been our biggest challenge.

Yeah.

I think we've been very mindful though, like whenever sort of something does come up, we've sort of stopped and had to chat about it, which has been good.

But yeah, I feel like you've probably had more homework than I did.

I think for me, the only thing I found really funny was that I was intentionally trying to take that step back and not sort of, you know, control everything.

I found though that that in turn meant that I got to the end of this week and I've realized I've actually there's things have not been actioned that need to be actioned.

Ah, and so it was a bit of a catch twenty two.

That's been a little bit.

Yeah, it's been a bit tricky to figure out, like what what to take a step back from and what to you know, what's urgent, what actually has to happen, and what is maybe just a nice to have.

I think maybe that's sort of what I was struggling to identify.

Is there a missing link then between because the point of view stepping back or not overfunctioning for Wayne is so that Wayne does the thing.

Yeah, so is there something missing there where I've stepped back, But whether I've communicated that to Wayne or not, so it does Wayne know that he's you know that You're like, well, I usually do this, but I'm actually not going to be doing that, or I.

Think I think, yeah, I think we've communicated pretty well.

I think, yeah, maybe I sort of overcorrected, like I think he knew what he's responsibility was.

I think I probably just, yeah, over corrected episode slightly.

I can think of one example, like we've just got a we've got a form that we have to submit and there's a multi step process and I was responsible for a certain portion of it, and then Wayne is responsible for the follow up.

And I think in him sort of really taking on his role and making sure that you know, he set up all the things he needed to do from like a logistics perspective, which typically I would probably have more of a role in.

I then sort of almost forgot about.

My part that I needed to play.

And now it's gotten to the point where and because he organized something that I would usually do, I think because that step was missing for me in my brain, I was like, Oh.

Then it got to the end of the week and we had a conversation and Wayne said, hey, have you done this thing?

I was like, oh, okay, it's not that it's not that you've stepped back and Wayne hasn't stepped forward it's that Wayne stepped forward, you've stepped maybe two steps back.

Yeah, and there's now like you're part of things that wasn't getting done.

I also think the way that because I know, particularly with the ADHD, that I can be very forgetful and I can sort of have a bit of time blindness, I tend to do things in a very regimented, structured pattern to make it make sense so that I will remember things.

And I think because there was a part of that process that changed and was handed over to someone else, my brain just went, Okay, it's done, I've done yeah, and just checked out.

So I guess that's the only thing that I sort of had feedback on from that.

Wayne very happily stepped.

Into whatever needed to be done, and I mean, to be fair, he usually does.

I think it.

Was more like you were probably more conscious of just getting the stuff done that you needed to do.

But yeah, I think it was funny because I lost a part of the process and then my brain lost that connection.

Yeah to the end goal.

Yeah.

So okay, and this is that really typical sort of all or nothing.

I'm either doing it all or I am doing none of us, yes, which is yeah, very difficult to kind of get to that middle ground where how do I create a whole new process where I do my parts of this job, but then I know where I stop and allow Wayne to do that I don't have to overfunction or like kind of take over the whole thing.

Yeah.

So this would be like a good sort of practice, makes perfect kind of thing, isn't it.

But it's interesting where you know, step one is we do the overcorrect that's very common.

So yeah, doing this now I do the complete opposite of that, and then that doesn't work well, and then we slowly find our way back to the middle of like, Okay, this is the spot of what I'm actually trying to aim for.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it could be interesting to keep I would be keep doing that process, and yes, it might mean a few more times of like oh I've forgotten to do so, but there'll be I guess your brain is going to be working out a new way of creating a system.

Yeah.

That isn't all or nothing, Yeah, which I think I know.

I'm like I struggle with I struggle with the like I either have to have complete control or nothing otherwise I find it really difficult to keep on top of things, so I think, but I know that's not necessarily a healthy thing to do.

I think, I just, yeah, that's definitely something I need to work on, is yeah, trying to sort of find a healthy middle ground that also gives way in.

The opportunity to be a.

Part of a process, because it's not even that he doesn't want to help or do things.

It's more that I can be quiet.

You've taken over.

Yeah, you're doing it all.

Yeah, and I am effective when I do that as well.

Like it does work, but it's not necessarily always the best.

I was just going to chime in and say that your effectiveness, your track record, and the way that you've just worked, and we will play a role in our families, right, Like there are some who are better at some things than other things.

And in our wider family, bet as that person that when she's got it, it's you know, dog with a bone.

When she's got that bone, it's when everyone around her knows it's going to be done.

The job's going to get done, and it's going to get done well, but not just well.

It's not going to take three four weeks or preclude like a protracted amount of time.

It's going to get done efficiently, effectively, and everyone has that assurance so that when you cut and paste that formula again and again and again for the majority of your life, you do find yourself into it, you know, in that role, whether or not that that's what you want, you know, or whether or not that reaches a level of burnout, or whether it makes you feel any more anxious than it needs to.

That's I guess we'll probably trying to delve into.

But but no, I mean, certainly for this this time that we've had since seeing you last, what I've noticed about birth is that, Yeah, I think she's really effectively tried to.

The opposite of overfunctions.

Well well, and we don't want her to un Yeah, but maybe.

Even step step back.

Step back, Yeah, which has been great, But it's certainly different.

To like, yeah, I guess the normal role.

That we find ourselves having in our family, in our dynamic but also our wider family as well.

Yeah, And that's interesting you talking about that, because there is a ripple effect.

When any of us change our usual default behavior or our usual default reactions, there is this kind of ripple effect on the rest of the family, and it can be your immediate or the wider.

Family, depending on how entrenched your role is.

So that does make sense, and sometimes it does mean that other.

People have to shift a little bit as well, Like that ripple effect means that everybody has to kind of recalibrate.

We'll hang on, if Beth's not always doing the thing she always does, then I can't keep doing the thing that I always do.

I have to do something a little different.

Yeah, and sometimes that causes a little bit of like ruffling or feathers.

Like, not everybody will be happy with that if there's people that rely on or expect or will benefit from whatever role we were.

Playing for so long.

So yeah, that is interesting.

But I guess the main.

Thing is really if we're talking about reducing some of that load on you, Beth, and even just in your household, but maybe the wider family, but reducing that load so that the overwhelming the emotional regulation stuff will also reduce, because I think that was where we also talked about that disconnect with how you know, you can get quite emotional about things and Wayne is not emotional about things, and we're trying to close that gap a little bit, and part of that for you will be lessening the overwhelm and the load so that we're more regulated.

That's part of the emotional regulation piece.

Yeah, and I think it is, like it's a bit of a it's an interesting time for us at the moment, Like you know, we're gearing up to go away, so you know, work's been extra hectic leading up to that, and then yeah, all the logistics that come with that and yeah, yeah, so it's it's been an interesting sort of week as well to trial something like this when we've got so much going on.

But yeah, definitely something to sort of revisit and yeah, try and find it more of a happy middle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in terms of Wayne, if we just flick over to you for the homework bits and pieces, what, yeah, what did you notice?

What did you see happen or not happen?

Yeah, Well, you'll be pleased to know that over this week I thought about you a lot in the sense that I was very mindful.

I was you know, your words from what I needed to do and think about this week were very prevalent in my head.

So I did a lot of thinking.

I found myself in moments a lot more and I certainly found myself thinking about thinking about what I'm thinking about.

So it was this really there's a little thing semptioned and sort of situation.

But I think I found one of the one of the pieces of I guess homework that you gave was how do I feel frustration, you know, when I'm in that moment and to sit in it and to I guess.

Talk about it.

I found that in this short period of time we've had away from you, there wasn't a high level of frustration.

There wasn't this one peak point, yeah that I had, which at the outset, I must say, is probably a credit, you know, like our workings, it's complementary, I think, to our our set up.

Our marriage relationship.

Which then made me think about in the past.

So because I didn't have a direct example of a peak frustration point in this time period, So what did I have in the past that had sort of caused a bit of a you know spark?

And I think I thought, I thought back and I remembered that my I asked a question like, why couldn't this have been done differently?

You know, if I did get frustrated, if Beth did something, and you know, the spark blows off in your head and you go ah, Like why didn't Beth just ask me or if this was going to be you.

Know, removed or purged or moved.

From one spot to the other or I don't know, like you know, if a decision, let's call it X decision was made.

Let's make it put attend.

But let's just say, like be through something in the bin that she should up or.

Something like that, like excellent.

I'm like, is that one that feels like I'm picking.

Up a vibe?

There's something about being put in the bin?

Shouldn't know?

The food in the bin is a is a great example.

It has happened before, and we all have differing levels of when something goes off, you know, so to speak, and I in the past something like that has occurred, and that very first thought is, well, what didn't Why wasn't this question asked to me?

Like Ohwayne, did you want this?

Or you're going to eat this?

Thinking of doing anything with a blah blah blah, And then I think about it.

But then my next very next thought is that, well it's in the bin, what am I going to do about it?

So I remember, I find myself going to that next thought really quickly, very quickly.

You don't station.

No, I don't because you know, and I think I alluded to this before, is that it's spilt milk, it's.

And it's such a small thing.

Now.

The kicker to this, I guess is that if that small thing keeps happening and happening and happening and happening again, then it.

Becomes a big thing.

Yeah.

And in the past, then when it does.

Reach a point, you know where I guess your frustration level is not just ten, fifteen, forty fifty and it's like, ah, it's now at one hundred percent, plants and that, and at that point.

We have we've had these, you know, probably heated discussions.

Yeah, and I think and I think at the end of it, we both find ourselves in a really good spot.

It took, it may have taken how I've longed to discuss it, and we probably discussed eighteen other different topics in our in our marriage.

But I think the time spent then when we do have those big discussions let's call them, is really worthwhile because we get somewhere, we make some headway, and you know, either I say something like you know, sorry, Beth, like this, there's no way I should have been as frustrated.

It's just X y Z, it's not a big deal, and or you know, in the past Beth has sort of gone like, you know, sorry, babe, Like it could have been easy enough to just say, hey, babe, I'm checking this out.

It's definitely done.

You know, it's a science experiment by this stage sort of thing.

And then it avoids it diffuses we don't need to get into that space.

And I don't know whether you think any differently on this if I just think.

It's interesting that in your mind you've gotten to like a resolution stage of that, but you've identified that you don't sit in it.

Yeah, yes, And I.

Think I think that sometimes means that either you're really frustrated, maybe unnecessarily so, because you've sat in it for like as well, you haven't satten it.

You've let the little things accumulate over a period of time, or in your mind you go, oh, it's in the bin, it's no big deal, and then you don't have the conversation.

And it's like I just shut the or I push it deep.

Yeah, you make the decision that it's not going to be a conversation, and therefore it festers.

And I think the only times I do that is when say, for example, there's a bit more significance to it.

Now this might sound weird, but you know, if you have labored to make something, for example, you've cooked it, and you know I don't I don't like Beth is the most amazing, quickest, most efficient, you know cook.

So I do like to cook.

But my cooking I would describe it as experimental in the sense that I'm like, what's in the bridge today, Let's make the most about it.

It's a mindfulness project.

But yeah, so when I do cook, yeah, it can be lengthy and it's a labor of what I think is a labor of love.

And then I like to serve it up and look, it's gone different ways in the past.

But then yeah, to see that then possibly if that is the thing to be chucked out, for example, it's like, well, you know, I put in all this effort and there's a bit more significance added to it, or if it was this great meal that we bought, because then the significance is there's there's a value, there's like a money monetary value to it.

So I think then there's those layers on top, you know, to anyone playing at home sort of thing, like my my background is a migrant background, so there's always that layer too.

I never came, we never came, Our family never came here with much at all.

We had to.

Build and and scrape.

And you didn't waste what was put on your plate.

You ate everything that was in there.

You still had a healthy enough relationship with food because you didn't really have much in the first place, but.

You just didn't waste.

And I think that thing of being resourceful with what you've got, making things last, making money unfortunately doesn't grow.

On the frees.

And yeah, so I think there's all of these layers that attach.

So yes, someone objectively might see something just going in the bin and that's that.

But part it's interesting how you internalize it as like, oh, well, it's just something in the bin.

So you know, part of you minimizes your value that's been challenged, because we're talking here about a value around or a principle or a value around not wasting, you know, being careful with our resources and you know, not taking not techniques for granted.

So when you see things that's say in your sception.

Being thrown in the bin carelessly.

Or thoughtlessly or unneedingly, you know, without needing to be that challenges your value of we don't waste, And I think I.

Challenge your values significantly.

There's quite a few things, because it also then sort of stems into you know, we don't just put clothes in a Vinnie's bag willy nilly.

You know.

Wayne will literally, you know, wear something until it dies.

He finds it very hard to justify purchasing things for himself, and then the things that he does have he takes very good care of.

And I.

Not that I'm careless, but I think it would come across that way sometimes because I struggle to have the same relationship with possessions that Wayne does.

I just don't view it in the same way.

And also, yeah, we just had a really different upbringing.

Child different backgrounds.

Yeah, I mean, for a lot of things, Wayne and I have very similar values and opinions, but we had a very very different childhood.

And I think, yeah, I think I do challenge those really important things in your mind.

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

I think it's just but those are probably the things that frustrate you the most that when I look at it objectively, I go, oh, it's not really that big of a deal, you know, like that food was very clearly off, or that food was you know, it had been sitting in the fridge for a period of time that I would team for it to not be safe to eat, or.

Yeah, well another great example.

You know, the more we talk about this this last session as well, is that the more you raise or you asked this question, the more I think about it.

Is Another thing is like a classic one I think we've had a giggle about before, is but leaving a room and leaving.

A light on.

Yah, yeah, yeah, I think this probably hits in there with more.

Yeah, I'm not alone, but you're not.

But you know my background.

You know, I was born in Bombay in India, and although so so Hindus, Hindus have a festival called Davali.

And I hope I'm saying that right because of a lot of my friends and families say that I'm the widest.

Indian ever seen.

But Davali essentially is a festival of lights.

Right.

So sometimes sometimes you know, I may have been out of the house and then I come back, weather it's from work or from wherever, and there are just lights of plenty all the light.

Yeah, so I'm like, wow, it's Davali around here.

It's it's and it's a bit of humour.

And I know with Beth it's not malicious.

She doesn't.

She as much as I.

We don't want our electricity bill going up.

I know I know that.

So I say it as a joke hopefully, and I hope you see it.

I think you do as well.

It breaks the tension, and for me it actually probably rewires my brain more than anything else.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but for me, it kind of goes well when it's not Again, it's not.

A big deal.

Probably a couple of dollars extra on the electricity bill.

It's not a big deal.

But it's okay if it frustrates you.

Look, I know I'm hearing you do this like full circle thing where you're like, oh, this is kind of annoying, but it's okay because of X y Z reason Like it's yeah, and.

I think maybe that's what that's what we're getting at and what we're finding out more and more.

But yeah, you know, in that circumstance, if I was to come home, I go, oh, this is that, and then I just go and turn the lights off, and that, to me, is the chapter closed.

Yeah, And then I want to check with Beth.

I'm going to see a little smile on her face, which tells me she's not so sure that chapter gets.

Closed, because there is very much ongoing.

After this short break.

I'm going to discover more about Wayne's personal background and how that's influenced his approach to challenging times.

Don't go away.

Beth was saying, she observes you seeming frustrated when you're unaware of being frustrated, and then she kind of tries to pick at you about it, like what's wrong or what, and you're like nothing, nothing, nothing, and then eventually there is something, so I'm not and this is Yeah, it's interesting, and I'm sure sometimes the chapter is really closed, Like I'm sure not every single thing is left festering for you, But there obviously are some things that you may deem as chapter closed that aren't.

That I think is what best thought starts noticing.

Yeah, And I think.

Wayne is the kind of person where those kind of things do like they stick in his brain.

And I think sometimes the problem.

Is it will it will then be used in an argument in future, and.

I that's what really.

Gets me because I feel like, and no, I don't expect you, you know, every time I do something that you deem as careless, I wouldn't expect you to talk to me about it every time.

But I think there are some things that frustrate you more than others, and you struggle to even identify that in the first place, let alone to place a value on you know, is this worth talking about and so.

But I also think he just struggles to identify how.

He actually feels about it.

Yeah, And I think, very nicely, it's actually clouded by the fact that he genuinely cares so much about me and he doesn't want to hurt my feelings, he doesn't want to upset me his I think there is like an underlying fear of rejection or something along those lines that I'm just gonna hate him if.

It escalates into this big argument.

And I think we spoke about you know, I sort of probably underestimated Wayne's need for reassurance from me.

But yeah, I think there are a lot of times where you are actually struggling to identify how that issue makes you feel, and instead of figuring that out you sort of go, oh, well, I'm just gonna you know, case closed, move on.

There's other things for me to put my attention into, which there always is.

We live a very busy life, you know, we've got a small child.

Yeah, there's you know, and that also is a big factor as well.

I think in having conversations is we're very mindful of how we behave in front of our son and the conversations we have and the language that we use, so we might be escalating and then both of us sort of go like, we've got to we've this has to be We've got a could opinion this, and we've got to talk about another time.

And then sometimes yeah, you do say does it get talked about it?

And yeah, sometimes you don't because you just get so caught up in whatever else is going on.

And it's one of the challenges, you know, having a little little body running around you, and you want to do you want to be good role models and you want to do the right thing.

And yeah, so I mean, and I think this is sort of a little bit part of what the homework was last time.

But to sort of add on to it a bit would be trying to pay attention to the things that do frustrate you, no matter how little they are, and starting by naming them and talking about them, even when they are potentially like really minimal and not that important, and like as in an experiment to get you used to being able to raise things that are really not that big of a deal, because I know you also mentioned the accident that you had that years ago that helped, well, not helped, but that has put things into perspective for you, and so sometimes almost nothing really seems that level unless it's life or death, so you can minimize things a lot.

So we're trying to do the opposite of that, where it's like every little thing matters, every little annoying thing is worth raising.

So we're over correcting you to get you to swing back into the middle because you're sort of on the end of nothing really matters unless it's life and death.

We want to get you to I'm winging about everything.

That's where we want you because it's not natural for you, but that will help bring you to more of a middle ground of Okay, I can identify things that annoy me, and I can healthily decide which ones I actually want to do something about.

But first we kind of need you to do something about any annoyance that you noticed.

And we do this with the understanding that Beth is aware of this and isn't just like why is he criticizing me all the time?

Or you know, why is this happening?

Yeah, because it will be uncomfortable and feel unnatural and silly as well.

Yeah, this is an exercise and an experiment, and not to be the end goal, but rather to help you more with your awareness and comfortability in raising things.

Yeah, I think it's good to go in with that sort of a lens because there is so much my new shir to it in a world that is so big and for us, with so many other bigger challenges and problems.

And in saying all of that, the other thing I did think of, you know, having these moments during this last time since we saw you last, is.

I have this thing.

And my dad probably it probably comes from my dad, who has this most amazing work ethic, and you know, we've recently worked out I think he's pretty much worked for the last fifty years basically.

You know.

And we're not talking a death job.

We're talking manual like laborious, hands on sort of work, wakes up at five, comes back home past five, you know, and then it comes home and cooks, because that's just how great of a duty is.

And so yeah, so I've had him as a really great role model as well, and that work ethic has just been passed down that I find myself just find that I put myself last.

So I don't really do any quote unquote self help.

Myself help well being activity probably comes under the umbrella off cleaning.

Yeah, cleaning.

I was going to say, think, yeah, so cleaning is my thing.

You know, I love a clean household, and you married, me married, and God said, here's your challenge.

But but no, be Beth is not.

You're not unclean.

I think we've just worked out that we both have differing levels of how.

We do things.

But going back to like putting myself last, I would just I like to be the last one up.

I like to make sure that you know the houses reset.

I get that, I think from my mum who liked to do that as well.

And then yeah, and it's by the time it gets to okay, now I get to sit on the couch and do something, it's like, oh, hang on, it's actually like bedtime.

I actually now need to maybe spend that time in bed like with Beth and that quality time, which then comes back to this other layer of time management, which I think we sort of touched on a little bit.

I think we wanted we flag that is, let's go into that.

Yeah.

So so that is a whole and I've given you probably lots there in the last two minutes.

But yeah, I put myself last.

We have much grander challenges and I want to try and do the best thing by Beth a little one, all the people around us, and then myself.

That's how I say it.

Yeah, And what's interesting is that if you're not doing the best for yourself, then can I do it automatically?

Can't do you know?

It's kind of like it's like it's like first eight, isn't it.

Yeah.

I've had a lot of conversations with Wayne about it as well, because I think automatically, like when we had our son My that was sort of the catalyst for me figuring out what was going on with me, you know, getting the ADHD diagnosis and multi will other diagnoses after that as well.

I think I realized at a certain point that I couldn't be the best mum or the best wife, or any of those things if I didn't work on myself and figure out what was going on, and I had to intentionally make time because it doesn't come naturally.

Like, especially as a parent, your default setting is to do everything you possibly can to make sure your child is happy and thriving, and then you think about yourself, and then you've got a relationship to think about and all of these other things.

So it's natural and I do it too, to put yourself at the bottom of that list.

But I've had a lot of conversations with weighing around the fact that, yeah, it's actually so detrimental to our son, to our relationship if he doesn't start to find ways to carve out time for him.

And I've said to you, like, I am so happy to you know, have our sun for periods of time, like all all of the things that he needs to do in order to facilitate those things happening.

I think you just really are struggling.

Still too, even consider.

The idea of putting yourself first.

Yes, like I think even the thought of going like I can think about you know, Wayne's got a function that he's going to tonight and even that it was like a phone called text message, this whole process being like are you sure you're okay?

Do you want me?

You know, like I feel bad because it's a weak night and all of these things, and I was like, fine, it's fine, Like it's really fine.

You're like please go, yeah, do something nice for yourself.

It's fine.

And so it's not.

And I know, I know it's not that Wayne thinks I'm not capable or anything like that.

It's purely that he feels guilty that he's not putting his time into us all the time.

But actually, particularly since our son has been born, you haven't done a lot for yourself at all.

And if we look.

At this, this came up last time around the avoidance of bringing things up with Beth because the idea that it might ruin the day, and then we kind of got to actually, it ruins your day more than it ruins Beth's day in terms of if there's a bit of a conflict or an issue, then the rumination and overthinking happens, and that's unpleasant.

And a lot of that is actually you.

Usually self deprecating, so usually about yourself or what I need to do.

Differently, how do I be better, you know, whether there's any guilt around the conflict and having happened.

So this is sort of on that similar vein where it's that doing something for myself feels like I'm doing something wrong or I'm not being the best.

Dad, husband, whatever.

Yeah, like there's this kind of like overthinking and over responsibility for the people that I care about.

Yeah, I think that's really well put.

That's that's pretty much it.

I think I just want to make sure that I'm present.

Yeah, I think that is huge being present.

Yeah, And you know, I mentioned the word present, and it goes back to again my migrant experience and my dad had to work overseas and my mum gave up her job to raise my older sister and myself and my dad worked overseas to basically provide put food on the table, and so there's a lot that there is.

There is that sort of layer as well, in the sense that that's.

Just what I want.

We are.

I'm grateful and we're lucky enough to be in this position now, you know, here where I can be present.

I don't have to do what my dad had to do, and I can be around and I just want to be around for him, and I see that mirror image, you know, Dad's son.

I'm the dad and now I have a son, so I want to just really make sure that I'm there.

And that probably goes too much.

You know, I'll probably do that too.

Much, and I'm probably going to start to get emotional about it now, which I didn't expect to.

But it comes out of love.

Yeah, you know, I just love the little dude, and I love Beth and possibly don't.

I'm not doing enough for myself, and I think that's really important.

Sorry, but I think it's really important because if if I'm not around, then well not around, or even if I'm not healthy, then how can I do all of those things that I love?

And I think maybe it's just figuring that out.

And if you know, the theme I think today really has been over correction, right, because there's a lot of us do this.

We have a certain experience as a child with our own parents.

We see certain dynamics and patterns go on there, whether it's between our mum and dad or between our parent and us, and then when we become a parent, we are very aware of what we do and don't want to be repeating so there'll be great things that we experience that we're like, that was amazing.

I want to be that type of parent with my kid, or I want to make sure my kid has those experiences.

And then there'll be.

Things that we missed or there was a lack or actively negative experiences that we go I don't want my child to feel that or to experience that.

And sometimes because of the emotion that you talk about there, the love for your child, it can intensify that.

And we can kind of overcorrect.

So potentially there's been an overcorrection of you know, dad wasn't around, or Dad had to be away working and wasn't as present as I needed him, So I must be so present for my son when it would be okay for your son for you to go to a function or do something with friends here and there, or you know, yeah you're around.

You are already more present because you are living and working in the same city, state house, you know, yeah, like you.

Were the home.

Yeah, so you're already creating a different dynamic there.

But then the intensity of like, but it's not enough.

That's that's what we're trying to just wind you back a little bit from the over correction.

Yeah, yeah, And I mean it's the you know, anyone in our.

Lives would speak about how great Wayne is as a dad and how conscious he is, and you know, all of those things.

I think it's, yeah, you you need to know how well you are showing up in that space that I think, yeah, you need to give yourself permission to just do some some fun things here and there.

And I mean, you've got it's not the first time you were saying that.

You've said that many many times in the past.

And I probably just need to need to maybe like not let go a little bit, but just realize a little bit.

But he was in he was so young as well, and I think he's a bit older now as well, So it just provides that little bit more.

You know, like.

Yeah, yeah, and he's not.

Yeah, I also don't need as much you know, back up from you as I did when we had a newborn baby.

You know, like it's just it's a change in dynamic and it will continue to change as well as he gets older.

But I think, yeah, the opportunity is there now for you to sort of have those experienced experiences and do things for yourself without feeling guilt.

I also think we probably have more of a support network now than we ever have, So that also hopefully provides a little bit of comfort to you knowing that, you know, if I did need help with anything, or if we need to ask someone for help, they're there.

So I'm hearing Sarah and Beth a week long golf trip.

With the boys every night, never never home.

This has been great, thanks so much.

So there's going to be the overcorrection the other way.

Wayne is no longer here.

Yeah, but see there's no fear of that happening because you're so far on one end.

We're just trying to bump you up into the into the.

Middle middle ground.

Yeah.

And something I was thinking about in terms of like there's a bit of that also.

Perfectionism stuff kind of wound.

In there, and I know we did flag last time.

We want to talk a bit about the time management and I feel like this is all going to be relevant, Like it's all interwoven into it right around the how Wayne goes managing his time.

Can I start with Beth in terms of like do you notice this as an issue?

How does this issue?

If you do?

If you do.

Talk about time.

Because Wayne brought it up but I want to hear first from you of like, do you know what he's referencing and.

How do you observe it doesn't impact you.

Yeah, so Wayne is the most relaxed person, albeit probably more on the surface because we.

Know there's a going on in your brain.

But yeah, he is very relaxed when it comes to time, and he has a very different perception of the value.

That he places on time.

I think for me because.

I I had a parent who struggled with time management, and then I also with the ADHD, have a lot of time blindness and I have, as I've sort of gone through life, had to really try and figure out ways to manage that.

I again probably have overcorrected because I didn't know what was going on with me until very recently.

My overcorrection was I always have to be.

On time or early.

I place a huge.

Value on time as well.

It means a lot to me, and I get very frustrated.

If someone doesn't value my time.

So if people are late or they cancel last minute stuff like that.

I really don't like that.

It just bothers me because I think I have to put so much effort in, like so much brain power goes into you know, Okay, well, if I have to be at this place at this time, then I have to leave it this time because I have to give myself an extra fifteen minutes in case I forget something or whatever.

You know.

It's it's a whole drawn out process in my mind.

So when someone doesn't understand that, not that I should expect them to, but doesn't place the same value on my time that I place on theirs, it really frustrates me.

And so a lot of our sort of arguments around, like when we sort of first started dating, particularly, were about this.

Because Wayne just doesn't.

Value time in the same way that I do.

He like, he was notorious amongst his friend group and family for always being late, never doing anything on time, never being on time, Like people would just expect him to show up at like an hour later, you know, And that was just the the expectation of Wayne, like no one.

Initially when we first started.

To date, it would be fashionably And even when I've tried to sort of sit down with Wayne and go, okay, so how does this.

Work in your mind?

Like what what are you thinking?

And I think it's just that he constantly underestimates how long something is going to take for him.

He likes to do things in a very routined way, and he can't he can't start his day or he can't you do something unless he's done it the right way.

Whereas for me, it's like I will forego xyzeding my routine to make sure that I'm at that place on time.

Yeah, whereas he's like, no, I'm not compromising.

I'm doing everything I.

Need to do.

There's no adapting to look.

To be fair, there has been a lot in the span of our relationship.

I will definitely give him that credit because.

We were so polar opposite on this and it really was a conflict point for us.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think you still struggle too, Yeah, to understand or estimate how long something is going to take for you, and you still struggle to compromise on things, you know, like even even this morning, getting out the door, I have to give him additional time frames, yeah, to account for the fact that we won't actually get out the door on time.

So like we got out the door.

Be another overfunctioning thing, right, this would be a great thing.

It's my biggest overfunction Okay, let's look at it.

Let's we've got to fix this.

Yeah, okay, let's go to Wayne now, because you were the one actually, which I think is great, who identified this in yourself and we're like, this is something I want to talk about.

Yeah.

Yeah, So tell me.

On your end what happens on your side of things.

Well, it's not new the first.

You know, I have early memories of my sister, who is similar to Beth in the sense that time is really important.

Yeah, being on time, not being late to things.

And that actually goes back to my papa, who's you know, my grandfather, who had this saying that he'd much rather be an hour earlyer than a minute late.

Yeah, And somehow that didn't land on me like that.

I don't know where yeah arrow missed.

But my sister would you know, initially when I was we were teenagers, sort of early twenties whatnot, would either if it's like a catch up, it would just be like why are you constantly late?

Like why do you not understand?

Blah blah blah.

This is a point of friction between you and your sisters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know when I talk about my mom, dad, my sister, like, you know, there's a we're a very close family.

I love the way that we are.

We're very tight, very tight with my sister as well, and so her feedback was really valuable to me.

You know, there was a lot, there is a lot of love for her, and so her feedback was really valuable.

And then I could.

Find myself trying, just never succeeding, just like I would try, and then maybe once i'd be really good.

I'd be like, see I got here at exactly six o one, and she'd be like, well, still not six o'clock.

But in my mind, I'm like, wells six o one, this is like it's a sixty seconds, you know what.

So and then you know, it came came along Beth, and the similar sort of patterns repeated itself with me certainly, and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is happening all over again.

But look, to be fair, I'm cognizant of the fact that it's a really important thing for Beth.

Beth values time, and I'm I have that level of insight, I have that level of insight that I'm not good at it.

And I think I really found a term recently that describes me perfectly, which is I'm a time optimist.

Now, I don't know if a lot of people have either heard this or use it for themselves or you or I don't know, but I found it.

I was reading something and it said time optimism, and basically where you're just always like, oh, yeah, of course I can make it in that time frame.

How much time do we need to leave?

Twenty minutes?

No worries.

I'll still do all the things in my routine that.

I'm not necessarily compulsive about, but I like to do it because that sets me right, sets me up for the day, or sets me up for.

This leaving blah blah blah.

And I'm like, yeah, I can still make it.

How long does it?

How long do we have to leave?

Twenty minutes?

Now is how long does that take you to do?

Thirty minutes?

Great, it'll work.

I'll make it work.

And then it's a long old it doesn't.

Almost delusion, could we say in terms of.

That's harsh, Sarah?

But yes, no, But I mean I try and then condense it, and then I think, I don't know what happens after that, and then maybe the apologies happen after that, and I say I'm so sorry I'm late, and then I don't know.

I don't know where that reflection piece happens after.

But I think, look, I don't know.

I think i'd try and be better.

And I don't think i'm you know, you mean in an hour late.

I don't think, as you said, I've changed.

That is a genuine like I'm not over exaggerating.

That was your general rule for like a social event when we first started dating.

Was, I mean, how many people out there do actually want to turn up to a party that starts at one o'clock?

At one o'clock, I don't know, But you're.

Married to one.

Yeah, okay, but there's something that happens.

So there's two things.

One could be the value is different around times, similar to where the value might be different around leaving lights on or throwing food in the bin and right, So in this way, Beth has a stronger value around being prompted on time than you do.

But it doesn't sound like you don't value it all.

So, but do you get anxious if you're running late?

So if you have a meeting and not just a friend catch up, even if it's a work, let's make it a work deadline.

Even Coach's laughing.

Already, even if it was.

I remember UNI days.

I think I think I adhered to the due dates.

Okay, it doesn't necessarily mean that.

Down to the minute.

Yeah I did leave things late.

Do you get do you get well?

You know, are you stressed at eleven fifty nine when you're trying to get it?

I work my best under pressure.

Yeah, I you know.

There are these optimal arousal situations for me where you know, as my not day job by IMC weddings and I do like corporate events, so I'm behind a microphone.

The biggest one that I remember doing was in a in an arena that I think had about twenty or twenty thousand people, and it was the welcoming of two prime ministers, you know from not little you know.

It was Australia and India, Yeah, joining together.

And here I was one of the people on the microphone as an MC trying to get these twenty also thousand people revd up for this climactic moment of the meeting of two lit and I thought that there was nothing better in the world.

There was no anxiety.

It was like optimal, this is the moment, this is great.

It's not pressure.

You Yeah, I really like it, and it's not built for everyone.

But you know, going back to your question, is that in that last time period, am I anxious?

No?

Like I actually like every something oozes out of my you know, like when I'm typing something, the keyboards on fire, like everything's that's where the ideas get generated.

So if we make this a work thing at work, well, yeah, does the time thing extend to work?

Like do you do you manage your time okay at work or meet deadlines at work?

Or if my boss is listening, absolutely I do, of course.

But look, I mean even in the you know, the team that I'm managing at the moment, I think we have a really healthy two ways street sort of work relationship time wise, where and I think there is in a work setting.

I think, yes, you do your for the big things that's unavoidable stuff.

You're there, you're there a couple of minutes before, and I do I have Bets on my shoulder, you know, BET's voice on my shoulder in my head, sitting there going it.

Yes, it takes you one minute to walk down the stairs, but don't give yourself one minute to walk down the stairs.

Give yourself five minutes to walk down the stairs and.

Plan for the contingencies.

Yeah, so you do apply certain strategies to try to.

Ensure that you and I think of people, you know, like my sister and now my Bet and now Beth for example, who in my head.

It's a fight if you're in my head Sarah and Beth or anyone you know, like it's a fight, because my default is.

You'll be right mate, you'll make it down there at ten.

Ten.

Oh wie, it's okay.

Now that's a really strong writing all start.

Yeah, yeah, that's my formula.

And then I've got actually forty other people will be in this room for this meeting.

It's not going to be a good look turning up late.

Make sure you're there on time.

Be early, that's what is the right thing to do.

Leave at nine fifty four.

Then it's like a bi minute thing as well, even nine fifty four, and then you'll make it down there at nine to fifty five.

And even if you do see someone on the stairwall, you can say, get a you know, help them out if they need carry something, and then still make it there at ten and find a seat and everything will be sweet.

Yeah, but we know so, and I guess this is a thing.

We know that that's not true, that that's not actually like that the time there isn't enough time to do all of that.

Yeah, yes, there is, yeah, time optimiz Yeah.

Even like he'll be working from home and yeah he'll he'll make himself a coffee and I'll see him sign onto a meeting like either a minute late or bang on it.

It's almost like he has to he has to wait until that time, whereas like I'm known at work for being the one that starts the meeting.

Yeah, yes, so like it gets to the time and I'm like, we have to start the meeting.

It's the time, you know, like it.

So, how does this work between the two of you?

Because I guess because we could look at this as yes, there's obviously there's that time optimism problem going on.

Here with Wayne.

It does affect you more so in your relationships with others who find that difficult.

But it seems to create this overfunction underfunction thing.

So and that I think in terms of the couple work.

Is really yeah, how.

We could do something, what we could do around that?

Because there's something there where Beth, I guess your anxiety about being on time and not being late would drive you to be probably like following up with Wayne come on.

Which I hate.

I hate too, yeah.

Yeah, And not your nagging.

I hate when I feel like I'm nagging you.

It's not nice to be nat which you know it's this theater.

Even this morning, yes, I put our son in the car, and I had everything ready to go for daycare.

Everything was ready.

I had woken up, got myself ready, done, breakfast, done all these things, and then you made the breakfast.

That's fine.

I fared to the breakfast.

Okay, I'm not not acknowledging yourself.

I'm not.

I'm not saying anything, but but that is all that's almost become my technique now, is that like I get everyone and everything out of the house so.

That it's an indication like you are the last one here, you need to get out.

But even this morning, I had to go in and say we need to leave.

Okay.

So that's so, if I may interject at this point, I love the way that you've seen that because that is like the focus, like this is our goal.

Yeah, this is the way I'm going to kick the ball into the net.

That's basically how you've seen it.

Right, it goes from A to B.

I've just opened up those blinders to see everything peripherally in the sense that everything that sandwiches that you've seen the cream in the oreo and I'm looking at the two brown bits at the oder, you know, and which is I woke like, you know, waking up in the morning, making sure that the dishwasher is unstacked, that the blinds were opened up to let the light into the house, that the breakfast was made, so that whilst Beth got herself ready and our son was waking up to the world, things would be sorted to the point that Bets then swoops in, does that seamlessly?

I then go out get myself readied, and then yes, Beth, it is a strong point again strength and weaknesses.

Beth takes him out, whacks him in, and then the other end of the oreo.

To finish this off is the security aspect of the house.

So making sure that you know, back door, front doors are locked, the I don't know, shutters are down.

You know, our four legged child, our dog is is fed with he's not you know, not anxious, but you know we've said goodbye to and we love him.

And like other little.

Things are set right with the world, like things out the front in the driveway, right, it was mid night last night, the bin's been taken.

Yet would happened?

And this is this is when we're talking about adapting.

If we're running late, can the bin be left out?

No?

Yeah?

No, well no, ideally it's closed so the rain doesn't go.

Wayne could not.

Be ridiculous.

Sitting No, no, no.

And if I was home, I think if there was time and home, he would then be on his way out calling saying, hey, can you bring the bins in?

Yeah?

Well yeah, And I think.

That's an adapt Like I've left sometimes going I don't have enough time.

I don't have these two minutes with the binnie and close the gate blah blah blah.

Yeah, I'll do the two plus one.

I'll drive two birds, one stone.

I'll drive and give Beth a call.

She's working from home today and so that.

That doesn't look pleased to be receiving that call.

She's like, can we just leave the bin out today?

I don't know, just like thanks baby, And it's almost like a thing in.

My mind which I don't tell you, but I'm sure you know.

What happens is that like it'll be a solid half a day.

Oh yeah, it will sit there and then and then I'll do it in my own time.

It would not be a lie.

And you know you should know everyone.

Sometimes I'll drive back and the bins absolutely and I'll be like, oh, well, you're just not a priority.

But also the first thing.

I go is, oh, you've had a busy day, you didn't have enough time to do it.

Your meetings were crazy, and it's the bins.

It's not the biggest deal in the world.

Yeah, And then we're back to that potential issue where.

Things get frustrated.

No, no, like the it's a little frustrated.

I mean you're like, oh, why haven't the bins been brought?

And that's maybe the first question.

But then very quickly I think of what I what I said, just.

Don't like I I know logically, because I know you very well.

By now that.

You know, I think in my head and I go, oh, I didn't get I didn't bring the binge in ways about to get home, he's gonna say that I haven't brought the vinchin like it's in my brain.

But also when you don't raise.

It, it's again it actually does then flow back into that thing of me not realizing how important that particular thing is.

And I can see as we talk about it that that is a vital turned to take it the roundabout instead of me then just continue around the round about it and go, you know what, there are much bigger things in life, because.

That's you know, that's what.

That's how I see a resolution to it.

But really, maybe taking that first exit on the roundabout actually actually your analogy.

Yeah, however it makes sense.

In your pame.

It's a wild place if he but yeah, maybe taking that path then actually does allow me to come back around that roundabout, but it resolves something that has been festering.

Used whatever word, yeah, use.

The practice for right now is that I'm going to want you to be like, oh, I'm a bit annoyed that the bin wasn't put in today.

Like that's it.

It doesn't have to become my ten minute conversation.

It's just you starting to say it out loud, yeah, and then decide to say anything or not say anything or what.

It's not even to get her to apologize, it's nothing.

It's actually to get you to start just naming and noticing the things that are frustrating to me.

And I'm going to just say it out loud, not like you need to be punished for this, but I'm just saying out loud, it's a bit annoying that I came back and I noticed you still hadn't put the bin out.

Yeah, that's it.

And I think also that will desensitize me as well, because I think at the moment, because because he.

So rarely gives.

Me feedback when he does, either A he's super frustrated so it's like really highly emotional or I'm like, WHOA, yeah, never mentioned this before, this has never come up, and you're clearly very upset by this.

Why haven't you brought this up before?

And then that that pushes it into this way bigger place.

That it doesn't necessarily need to be.

There is also an aspect of this is it this is we're looking at in a full page with the drawing of a tree and roots in the sense that like we're talking about what I what I've perceived to be about two to five percent of our of our relationship, ninety five percent of it is actually like there's a lot of foundation work that we've done which is really really struck, really really amazing.

I mean, we don't come here to talk about the ground.

That's a different session.

But yeah, like I think this is just a very I think a small aspect.

And again maybe that's my mind going.

I was going to say, why did you say that just thing?

Yeah, because I think I'm pushing it off.

I don't know.

I don't know whether I'm avoiding it, but I think it's this great, big lens that it's like.

Which is lovely.

It's so nice that you see the world that way, and I appreciate it because we are very different, Like you always have this back round thing of nothing is ever really that big, whereas I am so emotionally driven that even a small thing means a lot to me, Like I don't necessarily place value on something based on life or death or you know, significant consequences for me.

It's like, this has really upset me, so I'm going to talk about it.

Yeah, And it doesn't matter what it is.

So I think it's also just identifying as well that it may not feel like a huge thing for you, but A it will probably fester, and B I want to know about it because if it was, if the roles were reversed.

I would say something I think that's really important.

Yeah, the way that you said it there, because I would hate it the other way around.

I would flatly dislike it the other way.

And you don't like it if you would like it if I didn't talk to you about it.

But that's a constant with you, is that you don't Yeah, you don't want to talk to me about it.

Best ask me this question actually during the week, when when was the last time.

You remember being anxious?

M And I don't know if you remember the answer, but our son is now three three in a bit, and it was probably when Beth was giving birth.

Yeah, was the last time I remember being Yeah.

And so I would say to you that you were anxious every day.

I just don't think you know how to identify it.

After this short break, I'll be helping Wayne to understand how anxiety might actually be impacting him and his relationship with Beth in ways he hasn't been aware of.

Be right back, when we talk about some of the symptoms of you know, the overthinking, there's an anxious strife behind that.

So when I say anxious, and sometimes I think people we all have different understandings of the word anxiety or worry or stress or all of those type of words.

But I'm not talking about that you're having panic attacks or that you're like physically distressed.

But there is a anxious strive behind overthinking, behind perfectionism, you know, all of those type of behaviors, and even the sort of like conflict avoidance and going into that part positivity thing without really giving light to anything negative or not conducive to like a sort of happy, optimistic outlook.

All of that would indicate that there is an anxious process happening under the surface.

Whereas I think I am just a lot better because I genuinely because I have been in therapy and I've gotten very good at identifying when I feel a certain way and just talking about it.

I tell you all the time, Hey, this particular thing makes me feel quite.

Anxious or bear feel a bit anxiety would just be closer to the surface.

Yeah.

So whether it's more visible or she's more aware of it, but it is more.

And more physiologically, like I feel it in like heart palpitations, and you know, I get yeah, I can fuel the anxiety in my body.

I don't think you necessarily feel it in that way.

Yeah, And I think that was Part of the homework around the frustration was like, what do I notice.

What it feels like in my body?

And I know you were saying that this week, there wasn't any sort of big thing to kind of give you an opportunity to feel that, and whether you can do it retrospectively like some people can, but it might be hard if you're not as connected to your somatic experience of emotions.

But you could apply that homework to any emotion, you know, sadness, anxiety, anger, fear, what, any.

Of that sort of stuff.

So there is use in trying to connect a bit more to how do I know I'm anxious at the moment?

We probably can just identify it as like, ah, am I overthinking?

That indicates that I might be anxious.

Am I avoiding bringing up something that's frustrating me?

That might indicate that I'm anxious something.

Am I getting really stuck on something being perfect?

That would indicate there's an anxious strife going on here.

So we can look at it in your behaviors.

And then once you start noticing the behavior, then it's like, Okay, well, what's my body feeling like right now?

You know?

Am I all hunched?

Up intense?

Am I like tapping something?

Am I feeling like really harsh?

Am I clammy?

Just starting to go what's my body doing?

Is my physiological Yeah?

And it does manifest in for you like that tension you have.

Like every every messeuse or physio that's ever touched your back, it's said to you that you have nots all through your back, Like it does a big.

Indicator of something.

Yeah, it does, like bad posture or anything like that.

When we store anxiety.

I mean there is a tenseness that can happen with that that we can you know, people can live their whole lives without realizing that they tense particular muscles and whole it's like holding yeah at tension point humanity.

Yeah, And like I think, yeah, you don't necessarily feel it to the point where it is disrupting your life or your day or you feel.

Like, you know, you cannot function because of it.

But I think even the other day when he was asking me about anxiety and he was like, what what is a panic attack?

Like what does that feel like?

And you know, sort of talking to him about the physiological symptoms of anxiety because yeah, I don't I don't know whether it really manifests in like you know, a racing heartbeat or stuff like that.

For you.

I mean you've often.

Spoken about how when you're prepping for an event or something like that that you get a cold sweat, like even.

That that's even looking at that as adrenaline, right, And adrenaline is essentially.

Love, the feeling of adrenaline.

And I think I think because of that, anxiety is not necessarily a negative.

You maybe perceive and anxiety as a negative thing, but that feeling of adrenaline, that's that's a level of anxiety, you.

Know, like yeah, yeah, I think it has turned into a positive thing.

And to be very like brutally honest with you, I still remember, you know, I was seven and a half and we were at an airport.

It was the first time we were we landed in this country.

It was the middle of winter.

Cop this like go on, go out into this new country and here's your mirgrant experience.

Deal with that.

Yeah, And do you know my.

Parents, who of course were probably feeling ten times one hundred times there's.

Like is this the right thing?

Are we doing the right thing?

Like what do we do next?

It's not like what an ank that there's no bigger moment.

Probably there are, but you know, for us, that was our big moment.

And then from there you just had to to craft and build.

And adapt and adapt and make it work.

Make it work.

So there was no.

Like, in my mind since that timeframe, there was just no other way.

You just either keep going or you fall off the wagon.

So yeah, everything else and I think that was not there.

So in those anxious moments, you just.

Go okay, like get back like, get back right.

Again, you know, get this ship gone straight again, and align yourself with I don't know what others are doing, or this is how it's meant to be done, figure it out, you know.

So yeah, I had to then change the mentality on those things.

And I think that's why I go, well, oh this has worked for me in the past, copy paste this is how I go into the future.

And sometimes that blueprint, Yeah, the blueprint that you create as a kid of how to adapt and cope and manage life situations does help you survive and is actually really what gets you through.

And then we often notice as adults that sometimes parts of that blue print, or sometimes a whole blueprint isn't really useful anymore, or it is useful in some ways but it causes issues in others, or it needs some tweaking.

And I think that's just what we're looking at here.

Your blueprint doesn't need to be thrown in the bin, but there needs little tweaks.

Tweaks right and.

Totally yeah, And I think this the level of insight gained even by just putting things out on the table here has been Yeah.

And we are actually this is a point where Wayne and I are really similar, which is that we have never been in Neither of us are the kind of person that goes, oh, this is too hard, I.

Just give up.

Yeah, So if anything, we will both push ourselves to.

The point of like literally falling.

Apart if it means that we have gotten through whatever it is.

So we're both very determined, and I mean, I think the downfall of that, though, is that we both do burn out, Like we both get to a point where we're just really having a hard time.

So I think.

I think it's a great thing that we can both sort of relate to each other in that.

And also I think we would both struggle if we had someone in our life.

We do.

We do struggle when we have people in our life where you know, we struggle to understand the whole it was too hard, so I just didn't.

Do it or.

I just gave up, because I think both of us are very much That's not like a judgment thing at all.

It's just that both of our brains are very much tuned to just.

Like you've just got to keep going.

You got to keep going, and the positive things that's come out of it.

I think, you know, from the lessons learn for you and lesson anyway for me, if the lessons learn and how I can apply that to different facets in my life, aspects in my life.

Look, I mean, I think the two of you and this this is speaking to that is that the two of you have a lot of individual strengths and a lot of strengths as a couple that really make this actually a great environment for the two of you to tweak your blueprints in little ways, because often it's hard to make much individual or couple progress if there isn't enough of that solid support understanding between the two of you, which you do have.

So this is like the perfect foundation for some of these things that yes aren't breaking your relationship, but are causing tension or stress or or you know, just things that kind of make day to day life more frustrating or overwhelming at different times or.

Could potentially turn into down the tree snowball.

Yeah, and the fact that you've got that solid foundation and you haven't left it twenty years where you now resent each other or you know, the problems of snowboard and become bigger, I think is such a testament to the two of you.

Thank yeah.

Yeah.

And you know, with Beth, I just there is that great love for her and just wanting her to do well.

And I will always be your biggest you know, supportant, and I just I don't want anything, particularly me, to affect that balance if things are tracking well or if we're tracking well.

So again that's it's like, don't.

Put the spanner in the works, mate, Like, think that things are going good.

There's no need to be annoyed about blah blah blah.

But I totally get them saying Sarah in the sense.

That but that does cause then in the world, and.

It's okay and probably better to be like, oh babe, I'm actually really annoyed.

Well, you know how, I don't know how it's going to come across.

I also think that there's there is also just that asterix of I.

I was not in a place where this was possible for a period of time in our relationship, so you also are now having to get used to like a newish me, you know.

I think, yeah, before I got my diagnosis and like in between that time where you know, I was sort of newly postpartum, and then when it got diagnosis, that was a period of like what nine months of months you know, where lots happened.

You could not have given me feedback.

I would like it.

Things were quite fragile and you did have to work on walk on eggshells.

And I can see that in hindsight.

I definitely could not even look at it in the moment, But I think that probably is a bit of a like alarm bell in your head sometimes as well, where you go.

I don't know if I should talk about this, because I don't, like, I'm scared of because because at the time, if he had given me feedback, I mean even I remember even just talking about, you know, what we were going to do with regards to sleep for our son, and just even that being enough to sort of make me get super emotional.

If Wayne was saying suggesting something that I just couldn't hand and emotionally like, yeah, it was the smallest things that I found really difficult.

So I understand.

I understand where it comes from because naturally you struggle with it, and then also having that piled on top.

So this is you saying, I give you permission to do this experiment.

Yeah, and to sort of wrap things up a little bit, I do want to quickly touch back on the time management overfunction under function thing, because I think this will be another opportunity for you Bet to go, Okay, how do I stop doing that?

But not pull the full rug out from the table.

And now like no one gets to work, no one gets to to day care, no one gets to anywhere, right, but there is something there where the overfunctioning around time needs to be passed back onto Wayne.

And if that means that Wayne has the stuff of some consequences, as in like yeah, not something not happening that needed to or you know, missing something, or that is part of this clumsy process of trying to get to that middle ground.

But maybe for you it's like, Okay, I would start observing over the next few days to week of what are all the things I do that that manage Wayne's time issue.

And I think you'll need to announce the things.

That you're not going to do anymore.

Would communication?

Right?

Communication is the proxy of how I don't I see it, is how I don't face the quote unquote consequences because we'll just communicate it.

Yeah.

But so I think that's if you're going, hey, I'm not going to do this in the mornings anymore, or I'm not going to do that, or you know, I'm not going to remind you, I'm not going to follow you up blah blah blah blah, And then I think what you'll start noticing Whene is like okay, And I don't know whether the job for you is like the tasks that you do a lot, Like you know, we all do pretty much the same stuff every day on repeat in terms of of like go here, go there, eat lunch, go to work, blah blah.

What if you timed them.

And didn't You're not rushing it, just you're just a timing the usual tasks that you do.

I have you have because have you told him?

I know because Wayne, Wayne would say to me, you've timed as an experiment because he would say to me, it's going to take me fifteen minutes to have a shower.

Where is this data?

And that's what I want.

And we've had these conversations because and I'd be like, it doesn't take you fifteen minutes to have a shower, because before there's the during, and then there's the after and it's like a whole routine and then the hair and that, you know, because there's a thing.

I was like, that's at least thirty minutes, like at least and so I remember that he was going.

Again, you were overfunctioning, and I want Wayne.

I want Wayne to be timing himself your time everything you feel you need to time.

I want you timing yourself, and I want you storing the data and then you're going to see how and don't be rushing to try to time yourself and then like do as normal, and then I want you to go, okay, so when something comes up, do I have time for that?

I'd be looking at the data of like, well, I still have to eat lunch and that normally takes me twenty minutes, so I'm not going to be able to do it.

Like I want you to think that.

That would genuinely be good.

I like data.

I like numbers.

Yeah, I like black and white.

And it might be surprising, you know, And I think it will start making you have to check with something before you just do the time optimism thing.

Yeah, that will work well.

Actually, no, my data tells me that today is not going to.

Seven and a half minute.

But yeah, if I may, I think that I can't see myself timing myself because I'll be thinking about it, you know.

So I think I think we probably need to have a conversation Beth about about maybe you doing it, like.

Just putting the time around and just then giving you the data.

Yeah, just for all the initial things, but there might be some things that best not there for like it could have been timing yourself doing things at work.

Or most two wings, most.

Of the things that take the most amount of time are the home things.

Okay, yeah, I don't think like particularly with just the structure of your work now, I think it's less of a thing.

But also as it pertains to our relationship, ye, the things that come up the most of the things that happen in like a home environment or when we're together.

This could be really eye opening because you.

Need to be storing, you've got to have the data and handy to you in your in.

Your notes of the fridge wherever.

Yeah, but I can see Beth saying I need you to do X, and I can see her then going, why are you cleaning the fridge?

That is not what I asked?

How did you end up cleaning the pantry?

And that?

You know, Like my.

Favorite one is we will have an event the next day and he'll go, oh, I need to.

Cut my hair.

I'm like, there's no time for that.

Way we can't.

Well, it doesn't take me long.

I cut my own hair.

That's why it's just saying yeah.

Yeah, so that is that's one that wee can times is a process as well.

All Right, guys, let's.

Let's wrap it up here when we're going to get into the whole nother kind of one made.

But yeah, look, I appreciate both of.

You being so open and honest and like willing to do this experiment with me and grain Storm.

Yeah, thanks for the thanks for the questions, the directed pointed questions.

I think let's let us in this on this path.

So thank you, thanks, Thanks Allen.

All Right, we'll leave it there, Beth and Wayne are a great example of a couple who didn't wait for a major crisis to seek couple's therapy, and I think that's such an important thing to share with you.

They really sum up one of the major reasons I wanted to do this podcast to highlight the importance of working on your relationship early on, even if it's healthy and loving.

It really is an active service to the relationship to nip things in the bud.

A lot of times people think that they have to wait for the house to be on fire before they ask for help.

But if you get some assistance at the first sign of smoke, you might be able to stop it in its tracks before it can do lasting damage.

I feel really hopeful that Beth and Wayne are going to be okay.

They have a strong foundation for their relationship, and I think that the skills they've learned in these two sessions will serve them well.

This is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Solman Nilson.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to.

Connect with my practice motivated minds.

If you'd like to apply to be on the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link for the application in our show notes too.

Thanks for listening.