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Welcome back to This is why we fight, real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This is part two of my sessions with Gwen and Carla, who were trying to create a foundation on which to rebuild a very fraught and fractured sisterhood.

The homework I assigned both Gwen and Carla was to write up a list of up to forty things they want the other to know about them.

They're inner thoughts, hopes, fears, achievements and regrets in order to bridge the gap and deepen understanding of each other.

Gwen and Carla have read each other's lists, but I wanted them to have the option of keeping those lists private with their permission.

I can share that both sisters wanted the other to know that they've been managing some big upheavals and challenges in their personal lives and careers, some things that they've not shared with each other before.

You'll hear them refer to what they learned about each other in this session.

If you haven't listened to the first session yet, go back and start there.

Let's jump back in.

Here's Gwen and Carla.

It's good to see you guys again this week.

I've been looking forward to checking in and hearing maybe first a little bit about how you felt after the session last week, sort of what the settling down from the session felt like for each of you, and then we can chat a little bit about the homework what that process was like.

But yeah, I might just sort of dive in and I'll check in with Carla first.

Yeah, how were you left feeling after the session last week?

Pretty down, pretty exhausted.

It was a big session.

I actually just want to acknowledge that I think I did shut down a little bit towards the end.

It wasn't my intention, and I just want to let you know Gwen that I recognize how that might have felt.

That I was closing off.

I was just a little overwhelmed.

I've got a couple of notes today, so I hope that's okay with both of you.

If I refer to them, would that be okay?

Yeah?

Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

I love when people come with notes, drawing sometimes at all kinds of things.

But then, yeah, because I think this is the thing under stress, our nervous system gets activated and then the frontal lobe of our brain, which is a smart part, I think we spoke about it, kind of shuts off.

So yeah, I think that's great if you come prepared with whatever.

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, okay.

So sort of noting that, yeah, you'd kind of felt a bit overwhelmed shut down at the end there.

And I guess over this sort of following day to few days, how did things sort of settle internally for you around how you felt about the first session.

Oh, I just was giving myself.

Time to just process it and take it in because there was a lot a lot that we covered, and yeah, I kind of thought about every hour that I was awake since then and have tried to just give it some time.

I'm in some space in my brain.

To to get a grip of it all and see where Gwen's coming from.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, So it sounds like it was a little bit consuming, sort of taking over, yeah, which I guess is it's showing how important this is to you, your relationship with Gwen and trying to work on this.

But obviously it's very emotional process as well, and quite draining, and it does take time for this, you know, the process.

The process is definitely one that goes slowly, particularly when there is so much emotion and history there.

I think we can't sort of rush through it, and it does take time.

If we need to slow down, if we need to only do the amount of time in this session until we get to overwhelmed point, that's a great point to stop.

Yeah.

And so maybe if if either of you get to a point where you're like, you know, my brain is actually not really working anymore, and sometimes we might not even notice, we might not be aware, but if you do notice, feel free to say something, Yeah, and let's.

Go to you Gwen.

How was Yeah?

Sort of that processing of the session and over the afternoon a couple of days afterwards.

It was exhausting that day.

It was a lot.

I didn't realize like through the session, but yeah, after I starting, I was like, oh my gosh, I just knew it was hard.

But Karla, I didn't even realize that she had shut you know, like I wasn't thinking, oh my god, she's shut down?

How dare she Like?

I wasn't worried about that at all.

That's how just it is what it is, and you know, people react differently.

Yeah, I don't know.

I didn't.

I kind of had the homework task in my head and I thought I must get to that.

Well, that could be a good seguay for us.

Unnecessary, Carli, you look like you were about to say something there.

Yeah, I think it possibly wasn't that I shut down, but I felt I closed off a bit and it might not have been helpful.

I just wanted to know you don't know.

That that I recognize it, and I hope I'll do better today.

Yeah, and I'm hoping you're not being too hard on yourself there either, because yeah, it is a very intense situation and a lot of people will at different times in therapy shutdown or close off or you know, Yeah, and it is all part of the process.

To me, it indicates that we're actually pushing.

We're pushing in the area of discomfort, which is probably the area that needs to be discussed, right.

Yeah, but we just got to kind of toe the line and not go too far over and yeah, just that sort of sweet spot.

Let's go into the homework then, whether we start with Carla or whether we go with Gwen.

What would you prefer, I don't mind, I can start.

Yeah, Carlo, you can start.

Yeah.

My question around the homework was, so, this is around your experience of reading Gwen's list of things that she felt she really wanted you to know about her, Things you may already have known, or you may have guessed, or things you may have actually had no idea about whatsoever.

How was it for you in reading it?

I don't I don't know how to describe it.

It was illuminating, but also thinks.

Sorry, yeah, thinks I would never want to read from my sister.

I heard.

She shared a lot and and some things I did know, some things I queried, and some things were highlighted really strongly that.

It was really helpful.

Yeah, okay, And the part if I can just get a little bit of clarity around the part where you said some things I'd never want to read from my sister.

Did you mean, yeah, maybe tell me what you mean by that bit.

I heard that she's been through an unbelievable amount of trauma and she's come out the other side of huge challenges, and I think she's amazing for that.

I heard from her that she has felt alone and she was let down in one of the worst ways, fun to mentally for.

A young girl.

She wasn't even a teenager.

A teenager with all the burdens she's had sitting on her shoulders, She's carried on and oh, I know she's proud of herself, and I'm very proud of her as well.

Sorry, that thing's happening.

So if you want to just prompt me to get back on tract.

Sorry, I know you're on track.

And that was Yeah, I thought that was lovely, But you know, I think more importantly, what is that like for you, Gwen to hear Did it feel like some of the things that you had put in there have been heard and understood.

There's been a bit of insight gained at all?

Yeah, maybe some insight.

Yeah, Like I'm happy like it is what it is.

What I wrote like I don't need approval or someone to feel sorry for me, or I don't know that that's probably something that I've never you know, I've never had someone say good job, Gwen.

I've never had someone say that.

So I'm like, yeah, you think whatever you want, but it is what it is kind of thing.

So but yeah, it was nice to see some insight.

Can I ask you what's going on there?

So it's one thing to not need yeah, approval, you know, I don't need you to give me a pat on the back or you know, yeah, good job when but there is something there that's slightly shutting down of the connective piece between the two of you in the.

Way you responded.

So there's because there's something a little bit defensitive that came up there around I don't need anything from you, Like I'm really summarizing going underneath the message there.

So in some way.

You felt like.

Karla was trying to give you reassurance and you give you reassurance and you felt you didn't need it, or yeah, there's something there around independence.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Well, I think it's maybe you know, it's nice to hear the words, but show me the actions behind the words.

Does that is that maybe?

Yeah?

I don't know.

Yeah, so it's sort of okay.

I can hear the words, but I need to see what, well, what do I need to see?

I don't know, that's the thing, Yeah, because I wonder if Kyla expressing.

Well, even just expressing some emotion around the things that you've been through, it comes across as as care, concern, empathy, understanding about your experience and potentially for you, You're like, well, that was just my life and I've just had to get on with it and you know, you know, it was hard and it is what it is.

Sort of thing, but there, Yeah, there's a little bit of a pushback about her having any emotional reaction to some of the struggles you've had.

I'm just like, it's all right, mate, Like you don't need to be upset.

It's okay, Like it's all good.

That's how I feel like, you don't need to cry about it is what it is.

I'm good, I've come out the other side.

Don't worry about it anymore.

Like, you don't need to be upset.

So here's your caretaking.

You're caretaking your sister.

You don't want Yeah, yeah.

That's because those words have come out of your mouth many times before, and I know that's I know where that's coming from.

It's beautiful your reassurance.

But I think in ways where I want to show up for you and have actions, not just words, I think your capacity has diminished to be so small, and it's too unfamiliar to get the positivity from me or family that sometimes it's missed when I've attempted I do.

I just think maybe it's just pretty foreign for you, even.

Though you have it in other areas of your life.

Yeah, Like it's foreign for Gwen to be looked after or to receive support.

She's normally the supporter, She's the one looking after.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so that's intero.

Yeah, Gwen, You're like, oh yeah, straight in there with it.

Yeah it is.

Yeah.

So it is an unfamiliar position to be the one where I am being supported and people are trying to look after me.

That's not the usual way things go.

Yeah, And so I think that does speak a little bit too, that you know, I'm okay, you don't need to worry about me.

I've shared these things and there's no need to cry about it, you know.

So you're already there trying to caretake and make sure that your sister isn't too emotionally affected by the things that you've been through where you know, and I think that's probably part of that family role that you've been in for a long time.

But it also can be okay for her to be emotionally affected by what's happened to you and to care.

And of course if she couldn't live her life and she was lying on the floor in a puddle for the rest of us life because of it, that would be a problem.

But yeah, it's.

Yeah, how can I tolerate someone caring or being upset by some of the things that I've been through?

I didn't.

Yeah, yeah, I feel some it's on everyone else's terms so that they show up.

It's not yeah, like, how do I want you to show up?

Has anyone thought about that?

Yeah, so that's the question?

Then how how?

Because that's how I feel my family to show up because they think that this is what she needs, but no.

One really, like this is not helping.

That's how I'm like, I don't do that.

Yeah, okay, and I hope that you know, let's we'll carry on with the homework stuff for a little bit, but that is the direction I do want us to be heading towards later on, is Yeah, what can it look like for the two of us to show up for each other in different ways because we'll want it differently.

Yeah, how tangible, practical, actionable things that we can agree on that would feel actually useful.

Yeah, So putting that a little pin in that to get more specific on later, just to stick with the homework piece of Gwen's experience of Karlor reading through the things you felt were important for her to know about you, Okay, So there's a little bit of like wanting her not to be upset by it, yeah, Yeah, wanting her to be okay with that?

And is there anything for you that you hoped that she took.

Out of it?

Just to see who I am?

And I feel she has this, for lack of a better word, like romanticized idea about the person I am and I'm just not and I'm okay with that, like I'm okay with who I am.

Yeah, And Carlo, do you yeah, did it feel like this was some different person, a less romanticized person or less perfect personal you know, whatever it is then you'd imagined or yeah, I'm interested to hear your take on that.

No, that's exactly how I see her show up for her family and for her friends.

She has great friends, which is really beautiful.

And she mentioned that in her letter and or her list, and it really made me smile.

I know that I've been getting it wrong as a sister, and sorry.

I just want to start getting it right.

But I do need help doing that, and that pisces me off that I need help because I should just do it.

I should just know.

And I'm afraid.

It's just too ambiguous.

There's not a lot of transparency, and I think I'm getting it wrong and I just want to be in your corner and get it right.

So I heard that I've been missing the mark.

That's what I want you to write.

Yeah, but I need the clues and the suggestions as well.

You just shook your head.

Can I talk?

Absolutely?

Yeah, So I found I jumping ahead.

But Carlos list it is very reflective and apologetic a little bit maybe idealism is that the word.

And I read it.

I'm like, mate, don't be so hard on yourself.

I just take a break.

You don't have to get everything right, you don't have to know the answers for everything, like you just can't.

Just so you give yourself a break.

That's really kind of you to say so much pressure, and I think you put so much pressure on yourself, and then you put pressure on everyone else and it's like, well, I just can't it just too much, like I just and I think I wrote in my homework, I just want the relationship to be easy, like not so much pressure on on She puts a lot of pressure on herself that doesn't need need to be there.

That's a really beautiful reflection and I think that will be helpful for us in trying to get specific about what could be done differently and how, because I think that's what you're saying color as well as like I need yeah, I need that tangible specific yeah, And that might feel like a bit of work in the beginning.

And it's not to make you a perfect sister or a person that's super easy to be around all the time.

It's more just Okay, are there specific things that I need to stop doing?

Are there specific things that I need to start doing?

You know, it's not about curating a completely perfect relationship, but more just the main things that crumble our relationship.

Yeah, we probably need to address those things and the main things that improve our relationship.

Yeah, we probably need to focus on those more.

And what are you thinking they're going around?

Yeah?

Reading so that the reflective part is great.

The idealistic part is that more around the hopes.

What were you meaning by idealistic in the.

I don't know.

I just think she wants things to be a certain way and they're just not.

And it's not a bad thing.

It's just, you know, there was a you know, I do this because of this.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know how to explain it.

I don't know.

But it felt it felt like more how Corlor hopes things to be rather than how things actually are.

Yeah, and ask for understanding, and which is fine asking for understanding, but no, like I'm just like, can we just I don't know.

It was just they were very different.

We've I don't know if you've seen them home, Sarah, but they're very different, written very differently, and I found that very interesting.

After this short break, I'm going to try and help Carla and Gwen build from the insights they've had into each other's lives and realities through the homework they completed stay with us.

Well, I guess you know this would highlight the two of you are two different people.

Yeah, you know, two quite different ways of as we saw last week, like two different ways of operating, even affect wise in showing emotion and not and also in your perspectives on things, how you process things emotionally.

I think the two of you operate quite differently in a lot of ways, which could be part of why it can be hard to reach that mutual understanding.

What did it mean to you that the lists were very different, Like that you're priorities or focuses were different.

Yeah, maybe, Like she feels very deeply and I get that.

Oh I know that.

But you know there's things she's proud of and that's great and that I'm proud of as well.

Proud of for her, proud of her for that.

But yeah, just don't she just gives herselves such a hard time.

And you know, I guess my life experience is very different to hers as an adult.

So I'm like, it's not that bad, Like it's okay, you know, everything's not that bad.

But yeah, I find Karla gets caught up on things and.

They will focus, you'll focus on things and.

In her head too much about things that maybe she doesn't need to, like like it's okay if you don't understand me, or like it's not.

Yeah, I don't know.

Just give yourself a break, That's what I around.

I said, it's okay, like you've done well, you've you've overcome a lot.

Just don't be so hard on yourself.

Go And I don't know, I don't know what to say.

Sorry, No, that's hard.

Yeah, you know it's I think what you're saying sounds genuine and true and honest to you.

And Carla, what are your where are you?

What are you sitting with.

So much?

I think there's time, So I do just go with the float and think everything's fine.

And then I learned last week that how anguish and greet my sister is with me and.

M I don't want to harp on it.

I don't want to irritate.

But I recalled, you're looking at me and just you had a lot of emotion and anger and said, do you remember crying at the sports event?

And I actually couldn't in the moment.

Is it okay if I talked to that?

Or yes?

Is that talking about?

Absolutely?

Absolutely?

It came to me, which was a surprise, but I thought, I don't even remember the sport, but then I absolutely do.

And I can recall saying goodbye to your family, and your husband's saying to me, he was the last person that talked to me, so thanks for coming.

Drive safe, and I recall a big tear coming down as I.

Blinked and walked away.

Is that what you meant?

Are you kidding me?

This is not a one off event?

Okay, can I talk to that one?

Because I see I don't even think I can do it.

Actually, it seems why why can't you do it?

You don't you just I'm telling you my truth.

Yeah, so that's okay, that time I got it wrong?

What about all the other times I can't.

Speak to that?

I think in the future going forward, we talked about clarifying it, or maybe me being I don't know, making sure that you didn't get that impression, but you did.

I remember getting to my car and going, oh my god, I've done a number on myself.

My eyes really sting, and I'd rubbed sunscreen into it, and like, I actually get a lot of allergies in sports fields and in airports, open spaces, with wind sounds ridiculous, but that's how.

It is for me.

It's so normal for me to get teary eyes.

That happens every single day.

It's already happened this morning, and not this way with putting on makeup.

I'm just a bit strange like that.

I should probably go get eye drops, but I always forget.

Yeah, and.

I just felt you particularly last week that in particular, you felt really strongly about that, and.

I just perhaps I don't know.

If you want to, but maybe if you thought that, you could have just said, hey, you actually seemed upset this afternoon when you left everything okay, and I could have said, yeah, I'm all good.

I just had had allergies.

Again.

It's just me, no problem.

I don't want to fixate on it, but I just I did.

I appreciate you letting me clarify it because.

I'm not up.

I don't recall.

I don't know.

I just I think.

Yeah.

All I can do is going forward is try and recognize if I am doing it and work on it, because it's never if I'm upset, it's not to impact someone else.

That's they're just my emotions that I'm feeling.

And I move on.

I don't go away and go I was upset by my family on this date, Like I just don't.

Yeah, I think it's this is you know, I think it's good that you brought it up.

Actually, Carlor, I think it's good that you brought it up because I think this feeds into one of Gwen's I think issues more as a theme that I believe last session was that you brought up, Gwen, is that you want you really want some accountability and some honesty.

Yeah, and I think this is the reason why I'm guessing here, and you confirm or deny Gwen.

But it seems like, yeah, when this gets brought up, you can see the defensiveness come up, and there's like a I'm perceiving it as an irritated response.

I'm just kind of reflecting that, Yeah, what I see, which I'm going to guess that Carlos sees as well, like that, you know that the defense comes up and there's this real need to hear Carlos say something that aligns with your reality and your memory of what happened.

And when you don't get that, it's difficult to Yeah, I mean for anybody, right, it's hard if someone is not feeding back to me what I believe happened, and you're telling me something else happened.

You know, on both ends, it's probably quite difficult to tolerate that difference.

Yeah, yep.

I'm going to guess that this has been not limited to just the soccer soccer, you know, the sport for example, or in terms of is this an issue where you have different memories from Kala about many things or many experiences, right, yeah, yeah, so, and I don't think it's useful to go, right, let's go through all the instances where, you know, because it will kind of get a similar thing that's what's happened here.

Yeah, right, But what it.

Is telling us is there's either either someone is lying.

Okay, that's that's an option.

Either someone is purposely lying.

Either someone has a different memory or remembers it from a different perspective.

And you know, maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, like we both have sort of you know, our versions, and the truth is probably right in the middle there, or is there something around memory Like there's a lot of different reasons why they see can happen.

And I think when we don't know why it's happening, we just assume that this is a purposeful and intentional lie, and then that becomes very difficult to be in relationship with someone that we believe is purposely intending to make up stories or say things differently to how they were.

And I guess that's sort of the defensiveness that comes up.

There, is that, right, Gwen?

Like it feels like this is an intentional lie, Like Kyla is not telling me the truth on perpose.

She doesn't see the truth.

She just sees her version and justifies her actions.

And this is my whole thing.

It's not just about the socker, about accountability, about owning the truth.

It's about owning what happened.

If you're being an ousehole, just admit you're being an ousehole.

Like I'm quite happy to admit when I'm being a bitch.

But this, I'll pour me.

Oh everyone's against me.

Now, it's against me.

It's just.

Okay, sorry, I'll continue because it's not it's not going to change.

Why do you say that it won't change?

Yeah, Sarah's been like this.

Yeah no, no, I'm needing because I haven't been I haven't been in this family for X amount of years.

So do everyone's mean, everyone picks on Carla.

We don't understand her, but she wants this idealistic that there's that way the game that I don't really I like, I don't know.

That's why I say actions speak louder than words, and I say it to everyone in my life.

It's not just specifically Carla.

Yeah, because I know that, you know, it's that to my husband all the time.

Okay, but I guess what I'm hearing is it's been a long standing pattern that you have experienced with your sister where she doesn't take accountability or admit when she's wrong or done wrong, admit when she's done wrong.

And I'm how you experience, and I'm happy to, you know, draw the line in the sand and move forward.

But then she's bringing up the soccer and I had one tear in my eye, and I have allergies, and I have this, and I have that like trying to deflect the change the story to what because it's not about that one incident.

So it felt like again, the same thing was happening.

Yeah.

Yeah, essentially you're going, this is what I'm talking about.

We have a completely different perspective of what happened, and we're changing the story.

That's I'm just saying as if I'm mute, that's how it feels.

Yeah, yeah, And if that's what she believes, then that's okay.

It's okay, I was not upset that day.

I was okay, day, you were not upset?

Very good, noted.

Yeah, And I mean, look, without needing to really rehash the whole thing, I don't think Gwen is saying that specific day.

But it sounds like Gwen is saying that there were many days and this is not a push to get you to go okay, yeah, no, it is true.

I guess I'm just getting more specific on it that it's Gwen is saying there were several, so more than one instance where it looks like you were upset at the end of a family sing okay, yeah, yeah, And so I think, okay, if we use these sessions as a foundation for moving forward, it's like, all right, so we're aware.

It's very openly discussed that there's this pattern that happens where Gwen feels that something happens a certain way, and when she talks to me about it, she feels like I deny it or don't take responsibility.

Whether that's true, or not that is a pattern that is blocking Gwen from being able to be close with you.

Color like, that's that's Gwen's perspective and experience in the relationship, as you have your own perspective and experience in the relationship of Gwen's behaviors that block you from being able to be close with her.

So it would be interesting to see moving forward, and this would be you know, we're skipping ahead a little bit, but in terms of okay, so at the next family thing, or when we next hang out or when we next see each other, it inevitably will come up again because this has been a long standing pattern, right, so some situation will arise.

It might be nothing to do with the sport thing or whatever.

It could be a whole different story.

But where this same pattern comes up, where Gwen thinks this has happened, you think, no, it hasn't, and I think that will be it would be important for us to think of how do we manage that differently, how do we create a conversation around that to see if we can come to some kind of understanding or resolve around it.

Because if that keeps being the issue, it'll keep being the block because maybe when these things have happened.

I don't know, what do you guys?

Just when do you just not bother talk about it anymore?

Like you just don't bother bringing it?

No, there's no point right, Yeah, And so when you don't bring it up, that's the distance, right, that creates withdrawal, distance from closeness in the relationship.

Yeah.

So I guess this is whether or not you'd be open to trying this as an opportunity to go.

Okay, if we're really going to try and give this a go, if something like that happens again, I am going to bring it up and we're going to trust that we'll have some skills and strategies in place that there can be a discussion around it.

And if it can be work through and moved forward, great, And if it can't, and this is a consistent issue, then we see that there is something that's really not making this relationship possible.

Are you open to that, Gwen?

Are you open to sort of like, Okay, can we set up some sort of strategy around if this pops up again?

What will I do?

What does Carla say?

What do I say?

Like?

Yeah, Carla, where are you out on all?

This?

Just listening.

I'd like some strategies to get rid of any confusion.

Yeah, if if I'm misreading the situation, definitely it Yeah.

And I wonder whether you know.

So there's a couple of things.

Sometimes we think people are aware of things that they're not.

Other things, they are aware of it, but they're shame or something in the way to admitting things.

And then other times it's literally like that didn't happen, and actually I've misread something.

So there's I think we need to kind of consider all options there where when there's a pattern that's happening a lot, when you might jump to conclusions sometimes and maybe when we know someone well, it is usually what's actually happening.

But maybe when we're talking about behavior change, which is what we're looking at now, is trying to make a change in the dynamic between you two, we almost got to put a pause on that assumption thing because it will get in the way of.

You two being able to do anything different.

If there's an assumption of like here we go again, Kyla is going to do this, and then I'm going to do that, we almost have to be like we're doing something different, We're doing something new.

I'm going to check this with Carla.

I'm not going to do my usual pull away or can't deal with this thing.

And then, Carla, what do you think your part of that dynamic is where, let's say you sense that Gwen is upset with you, or Gwen is pulled away, what do you normally do?

I think if I've really realized she's pulled away, I'd like to think I give her space.

Yeah, I guess I'm probably not very good at it.

The next steps either yeah.

Yeah, is if reluctance to say, hey, what happened there?

You've kind of dropped off?

Or yeah, do you hesitate to do that?

Oh?

Yeah, that's not allowed?

Okay, not allowed means it doesn't get responded well to.

When you do that, there's there's there's a big no, it doesn't get responded to.

I don't think.

What do you think that is?

Because you've had enough of my bullshit?

But I think that narrative keeps going because there's times where you read the situation wrong or incorrectly.

I'm certainly not perfect, but I am at a loss at times at seeing it, and I feel like such an idiot for that.

I wish I was on your way length more so that I got it.

I don't want it to be all about me.

I want it to be all about everyone.

If that's something, Does that sound like something you you would be okay with?

H Yeah, okay, So.

There's something there.

When you're saying you're sick of my bullshit?

Right, is it because it sounds funny?

Is it perceived bullshit or real bullshit?

Like?

Are you saying, look, I know that there's some bullshit that I pulled that is difficult to deal with, or are you saying I can see you perceive some bullshit going on and you get sick of it.

More than second phrase?

However, I want to get to the bottom of it.

Maybe I.

Think there's time, so I just don't see it.

I don't see what you think is bullshit, But if I found out, I would one hundred percent work on it.

What's happened in the past, Well in the past, Gwen, have you told Carla what was the problem or what you know what the issue is and what you need to her to do differently, or have you done that before and it's not gone well and so you sort of no longer do it, or it's just not something you've ever really tried.

No, there's no accountability or perceived bullshit.

She just said that, and it's always been No, you've got it wrong, you don't understand, so I just let it go.

So there was another part to that, and I heard, you know, yes, there is a you have a different perception to me.

But there was another part that admitted to I might not see it.

Maybe I'm not seeing what I'm doing, like I'm not aware of it in the moment, and if you were to tell me I could try and be aware of it.

Is that what you were saying, Kyla, Like I might not be aware of how something's coming across, and then if you tell me, I can try and see it.

Yes, I'm open to suggestions of how to facilitate that, because.

Yeah, I just.

Well, I think number one, you have to be aware of what it is, how you're coming across, or how you're impacting others.

Right, So even let's go back to the soccer thing to use as an example, It's like, Okay, I was not aware that you felt that I get upset at the end of every many of these things.

I am now aware.

So moving forward, I guess you have it in your awareness to go, okay, let's see what happens.

Do I need to just check in with myself and notice if I'm feeling down at the end of the games, or am I coming across really sad, or you know, it's just part of a reflective piece moving forward, and then that in itself might be enough for it to no longer be an issue.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I don't know, or you like we said last week, you'll go, oh, yeah, I am really sad at the end of the things and I can see or no, actually I'm not at all, and then it no longer is an issue because it wouldn't then be happening again, do you.

Know what I mean?

So, but that none of this reflective piece could have happened without Gwen saying Gwen raising it.

And then you're going, even if I don't agree with that, I didn't even know that what you thought?

Yeah I did not know.

Yeah, yeah, So.

You do want to get to the bottom of it, But it sounds like there's some difficulty in like I want to hear the things that Gwen struggles with with me, but I also can't be admitting things that I don't remember or don't believe or haven't felt.

No, I'm willing to hear when I've made my sister uncomfortable or feel a certain way, and I will accept it.

I apologize if you've tried to communicate it.

I've missed it.

I've missed the communication because I had, like I don't want to harp on it, but I had no idea that interaction went like that for you in your mind, none whatsoever.

But I really do want to know.

I really do.

I want to know, and I will own it and improve where I can.

When what are your thoughts in terms of this idea of bringing things up, moving forward, bringing things up and saying.

Yeah, that's fine, but there needs to be accountability, it's not no, that's not you know this.

No, No, I will say okay, I won't.

I won't disagree or argue the point.

I will just accept what you're telling me.

If there's more you need other than saying I see what you're saying, what would that look like?

So if you disagreed with what I said, you'd just not say that.

No, I might go okay, I I think I can see where you're coming from, or I do see where you're coming from, and take it on board.

Okay, well yeah, so is that feeling like KRLI is just appeasing yep, appeasing you yep?

Okay, what would be something more useful for us?

So?

And I think this is being able to tolerate difference, right, So for example, Wow, I didn't I don't realize that I leave these events crying.

But obviously this is something that you've noticed and you're feeling upset about what it's frustrating or it makes you not want to environ anything.

So I'm going to pay a bit more attention and see what goes on for me and like, thank you for telling me.

Do you know what I mean?

So that is still not you going, oh yes, I must cry it all the things.

Yes, you know you're going, oh okay, this is news to me.

But I'm going to pay attention and thank you for telling me.

Is that enough?

Gwen?

Like for you where it's I'm not agreeing when I don't agree, but I'm also trying to hear what you're saying, and I'm trying to work with you here and go all right, well okay, I'm going to pay attention to that moving forward.

Yeah, is that preferable?

Yeah?

Rather than I think that appeasing thing feels maybe not not genuine or you know, it's like I'm a studying yeah, like you want your sister to be her own person and be able to tell you.

Well no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I definitely think I would have added to it.

It wouldn't have been just one sentence.

I accept what you've said and move on.

But that was a great example that I'll definitely yeah, if that's something that would help, I'll try and.

Speak to that.

Can I reflect something to the two of you about a process actually on each end that I feel gets in each other's way of being listened to.

I think the there's the need to explain or justify on your end color which normal.

Everybody wants to be able to be understood and justify and explain myself.

But it's almost like there's a fear of being in trouble or doing the wrong thing, which I think comes from, you know, the fear of the distance.

You know you want the closeness and you know when things go wrong between you two there is a distance that happens, and you actively don't want that.

So there's a bit of this extra pressure and fear of doing and saying the wrong thing, and I think when when senses that, it actually makes her more defensive and it makes her pull even further back.

Both of you correct me if I'm wrong, but I just sort of see that when it feels like you're trying too hard or like you're putting yourself to the side to try and please Gwen, Gwen actually goes even further further back from you emotionally.

Does Gwen?

Does that feel reflective of what happens?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, And then if I reflect something else because going the other way, when when your irritation and defensiveness comes up, that triggers Karla's appeasing behavior to try and plicate you.

So the more defensive you get, the more she tries to plicate you, and then that makes you withdraw.

So we can see this game.

You know, it's not a game, but we can see this pattern that plays out between the two of you where you really want your sister to be herself and be genuine, but you're also trying to, you know, tackle something that you have two different perspectives on.

And then when you get frustrated by her and you show your frustration, yeah, then Carla goes into I just want to please and make this better, which then makes you go, oh, no, that doesn't seem genuine.

I'm got to pull away.

So how do we start untangling that dynamic?

So there'll be things, you know, on each of your ends of like, yeah, I think there's that managing the defensiveness and frustration bit, because it's like when I do that, I then get the thing I don't want out of my sister.

And then on Carla's end is when I get that urge to just try and please or make everything okay or do whatever she wants, that is actually getting me the opposite.

It gets her to feel like I'm not being genuine.

Any thoughts on that process between you two.

It's very deep root head deep seed it.

I think it's so ingrained that pattern that it's going to take a lot of work to exercise it away.

Yeah.

Yeah, but you know, if the two of you become aware of it like this and we really try doing exercises to keep it at the front of our brain, you know, it's like, Okay, in our interactions, how do I keep that in the front of my brain?

And if it's something that can be openly discussed between the two of you.

That also can be really helpful of like, oh, i'm doing that, you can pull your own self up and even kind of name it in the conversation of I'm doing that thing again.

I'm scared you're going to pull away, and so I'm trying to just make it better, or you know, I know, I know I'm being short with you.

I'm getting frustrated because I feel like you are trying too hard or you know.

So it's like we can just can we name it when it's happening without it being an attack, just naming my own part in it to try and sort of shine a light on what's happening and give us the opportunity to do something different.

So, Okay, I need to try less hard.

I need to come back to what feels genuine for me and try that again.

Or I need to soften a little bit and not be putting that sort of irritation at the front.

How can I lower that to not put the pressure on so that she's not trying to placate me.

Yeah, but it will be a practice, practice, practicing, Yeah, because I think there's a dynamic of I can never do anything right on Carlo's side, like feeling like I don't know what to do and I can't do anything right, and inevitably it is like why you're always doing the wrong thing because the pressure then makes you not able to see what you need and what your sister needs.

It's just I need to get the pressure down.

See.

I struggle with that.

Go on, gwin yeh in the sense that I feel Color has at times this victim mentality and it drives me mad.

Take accountability, own your truth on your actions.

Don't try and justify everything and say I do this because of this.

Could you imagine that your sister might be scared to do that?

And I'm not saying you are, Color, I'm putting it out there that could there be a dynamic where it feels scary to tell you that I've what I think if I think you're not going to like it.

Oh maybe, But I've always thought she's quite forthcoming in what she thinks.

Is it sometimes scary for you to say what you really think or what you want?

Yes?

I believe it is the way I feel it On occasions that yeah, stops me.

From saying what I really think or really want because there's other people to consider.

So I don't know's it's not obviously that it's getting really modeled.

But yeah, I.

Don't want to explain how I really feel because I'm worried it'll be perceived that I'm making it about me, and I don't want it to be about me.

Yeah, I think there's something there, and I don't think it's because Gwen, it's not that you, uh, this big scary monster and that's You've created this dynamic where Carla's afraid to say things.

I think there's a lot of things on Carla's end that are barriers that create the fear.

And then there will be things that have been created in the dynamic where yeah, that you do get frustrated or you know, loose tolerance or patients or just don't have time for these things because of some of the history of how that has played out between you.

So then that sort of reinforces a little bit the oh, you know, but every I don't want her to get pissed off and then she's not going to want to see me or you know, this is kind of what I'm imagining is happening.

Is so there's a bit of confirming some of the fears happening because of how much this pattern has played out.

Yeah, so it's almost like Gwen wants accountability and honesty.

Carla wants to do that too, but there are things that get in the way, such as fear of the reaction and response, or fear of doing the wrong thing.

Tell me, Carlo, is that resonating or something?

Right?

Yeah, I think that is.

When we get back.

Can Carla and Gwen find a circuit breaker to help them move past the things they disagree on and focus on what a relationship in the future might look like.

Be right back.

So we've got to try and break this circuit, break this right.

So it's actually going to be meaning, you know, tolerance and patience from the both of you.

Of right, we're going to.

Try a new way of communicating, and that will mean that I'm going to say and do things it's going to piss you off, or you're going to say and do things it's going to upset me or Yeah, but we're practicing a different way of communicating until we can get it right.

So I guess what I'm asking the two of you is that do you have are you able to commit to the sort of the process that the Niggli process of like, this could be a bit difficult and uncomfortable, and it may go wrong a few times before we get it right.

But do I have the tolerance and patience to try that out with you?

It's almost like no one wants to answer before the other one, and I wonder what that's about.

Part of me thinks I've already tried that, yeah, and I didn't go well, So that's why I'm like, yeah, I don't know.

Well again, what's different?

So when you've tried, so you've tried, I think I have different Yeah, yeah, but tried in terms of being patient and tolerant that fart sorry, yes, yeah, yeah, and that I have no doubt that both of you have really done that for a lot of years with each other, because there's been this kind of misunderstanding and mismatching what's been going on between you.

But rather, what I'm asking is whether we can try and be calling out the process between you of I'm not feeling like you're being honest with me.

Are you scared?

Are you scared that I'm going to get angry?

Or do you feel like I'm going to react badly because your sense when your sister's doing that thing and saying the other way around your sense like I feel like you're getting really frustrated with me, so I'm kind of feeling like I just want to say the thing that makes you feel better, and you know, so it's Have you ever tried really making it super transparent like that between you two, because that is really getting right underneath all the bullshit of whatever content is going on and going.

I'm finding this conversation really difficult because I feel like you're making excuses or I feel like you're you're already thinking I'm doing something wrong, and it's making me panic, and I don't know what I'm supposed to say.

What's that krla your face?

Yeah?

Can you just repeat that?

Because oh yeah, I get asked this a lot, and I guess what did I just say?

Which bit your bit or Gwen's bit?

Your bit?

It's making me panic and I don't know what I'm supposed to say.

I'm noticing you getting irritated at me.

Yeah, and yeah.

If I try saying that out loud.

Yeah, yeah.

If that's how you're feeling, of course, like it's yeah, whatever process is happening for you internally.

That's a no.

No, you don't say that that would be really hard.

To who No, no, I don't say that, or Gwen doesn't let me say that, Like Gwen wouldn't like that, and.

I think when would like it?

Actually, yeah, but.

It's not it's not blaming Gwen.

It's naming the process of I'm sensing irritation or I'm because you're not.

Gwen may not even be irritated, but it might be that I'm sensing that you're irritated and I'm noticing that it's making me just want to just say something to plicate you.

So and by saying it out loud means I'm trying not to do that.

I'm trying not to do that thing.

It's it's I feel the urge.

That's the thing I always do, and I'm naming it so that I can try and do something different.

And that also hopefully the point of it is to get Ben Gwen in this scenario to go, Okay, I'm going to try and turn if there is any frustration in my tone or I'm going to try and turn that down or not, because I do want you to actually say what you really think, right, I mean, I think that is the goal for Gwen, is I ac actually do want to hear what you have to say, and so there's something encouraging around that of like, Okay, let me have it.

I'm not gonna go crazy, just you know, I'm gonna try and let it happen without blocking it accidentally blocking it.

Yeah.

Yeah, So is that slightly different where it's like I'm naming something, I'm not blaming you or saying it's your fault and you need to do something.

I'm actually saying I need to do something different cause I'm noticing I'm about to do that thing again, and vice versa.

So in terms of Gwen, yeah, I'm noticing.

I'm just feeling like ending the conversation or I'm wanting to move away.

I don't feel like it's real what's happening right now, And so I'm gonna try and lower my frustration and see if that helps you be more real with me, like say what you really want?

Is that making sense?

That makes sense?

Look, it's all an experiment, isn't it.

The point of it is we're trying something different because what's been happening for years isn't working.

Yep.

So we're trying to just circum break this deeply entrench pattern and it's gonna be clunky, and it will work and it won't work, but the goal is that hopefully it can create something different happening that will be more workable between you two.

Okay, now, thoughts about homework.

I mean that's partially that is, like you know, but we need to have some time and opportunities to be using that.

So I mean I would be encouraging having a conversation, but not about and I think this is it.

You want to be having normal conversations, not about anything, not about this stuff, not about the work, not about the problems, but whether it be having a phone call to catch up about the family or what's happening or work or whatever.

You know.

I would be trying to create some time where the two of you are just connecting or whether it's on the phone or you know whatever, once a week, once a fortnight, whatever it is, do we just have a little like fifteen minute twenty minute call and just what's happening in each other's lives or I don't know, but how do I actually create opportunity to rebuild some type of connection and then we can have a chance to use these skills that we're trying to learn because it's all one thing to go, Okay, this is what I'll do.

But if I don't actually start applying it in the moment, you're not going to get into the habit of breaking this pattern.

So making it some that could work for you, guys, because it's not to be a chore or to add stress, but it is like, Okay, we need to make a bit of time for a Yeah that would work on a day or time that can suit the two of you, So like you can work that out between yourselves.

But just finding time to build some type of relationship, because yeah, we can use we can have all these skills, but if there's no relationship to apply them to, it just sits in the abyss.

I guess.

Yeah.

So yeah, So if we set that as part one, setting a little time for a phone call every x amount of whatever's that suits you, guys, and then really trying to call out and name the pattern that's happening when it's happening, because I would say that shuts down most of your communications is whenever that thing starts happening, yeah, and then it ends in yeah, we don't continue talking, or we end the call, or I don't invite you to a thing because that didn't go well last time.

Well, however it goes, but the distance then happens.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

And then I think in terms of anything that feels unsaid from the homework, like, was there anything because we sort of went a bit all over you know, it's usually in my sessions I do kind of end up No, no, it's me, I end up going all over the place.

But yeah, was there anything left une said from that?

That feels?

Yeah, either of you needed to close that loop about what you learned about each other or how it felt to do that process, I don't think so, yeah, that feels okay.

Yeah.

The next step, I think will be starting to explore further what each of your role is in the dynamic between you.

So we've identified one, you know, sort of I think a call one today of this the irritation and then placating pattern, But there'll be other ones, you know, there'll be other layers to that of how each of you contribute to what goes on.

So I think if I was set a second part of the homework just for your own reflection, is how else do I contribute to the breakdown in communication?

Between me and my sister, what do I do or what do I know about myself or what behaviors default behaviors do I do that I know probably make it hard for my sister to talk to me or to hear me.

Yeah, so it's really looking at your own part in the issue in the dynamic, and that can just be you know, reflected in your own whether or notes on your phone or whatever.

But to be noting that down and if you guys do want to continue therapy, then you know, if you want a third session for example, we would talk about it then, but yeah, if not, just for your own purposes, I think it is useful to look at how do I contribute to the dynamic because we can often get very much how the other person contributes to the dynamic, but also what do I do.

Just the hope is that actually both ends will be addressed.

But it's easier to come up with it yourself rather than and then you can have the extra bits pointed out that you may not have come to yourself, which is fine, But if we can do the core of the work reflectively, I think it goes down a lot better.

Yep.

Yeah, are we happy to leave that there?

Today.

Yeah, yeah, I think so are you, Gwen.

Yep.

I hope you guys feel a bit less exhausted or it might be just as exhausting as last time.

Yeah, it feels a bit better for me, Yeah, a bit better after that session.

I'm feeling lighter and hopeful.

If I had to guess, I think Gwen might be feeling relieved and a little bit accomplished because it was some big work that we joined together to do.

I do think we'll continue the therapy process.

I think with guidance we.

Can can achieve, or we can attempt homework and little exercises to I'd learn the unhelpful patterns that we have had for so long.

So after this session, I feel, I guess, disappointed that it didn't really go as well as I thought was hoping.

I thought there would be more progress and some more accountability on Carla's behalf.

Yeah, and maybe not so much defensiveness of mine.

Yeah.

How do I think Carla might be feeling?

She possibly confused, a bit apprehensive of moving forward this our homework because that's always been a big thing for us, is communicating.

So that's yeah, it's also what I'm worried about because it's very draining, and I just like what I hope might be next for the two of us.

I think it's well, it's me.

It's made me aware that perhaps I would like to continue seeing Sarah and doing the counseling sessions for myself as well as just with her.

I think that would be really beneficial, and I'd like.

Us to continue just to see where, you know, what we can do how because right now I can't even see the forest from the trees.

Is that the saying like, I don't.

Know how it's going to get any better, if I'm honest, So I'd like to explore that for sure.

So probably the most surprising thing I've learned is how I control my emotions and how I put myself in the role depending on what I'm playing, like this, with this scenario, I'm the big sister, so I know how to switch that on and be keep my emotions in check, just as I did when I was a kid, and just as we do in the family.

So that was really interesting.

I wasn't even aware that I did that, and I guess perhaps in my previous work I've had to do that as well.

I've had to switch off and just turn into work mode.

I guess we all do that, so I'm very good at that.

Yeah, I didn't realize just how good I really.

In couples therapy, there often is one person who is closer to the end of their teather than the other, and that can mean that they might have less patience, less tolerance, just less to do the work due to frustration, lowered capacity, extra stresses outside of the couple relationship, many different things, and this can create a little bit of an issue when it comes to doing the exercises and the work involved to try to repair.

My hope is that Gwen still has a little bit left in the tank to do this work with Carla, because it does require a lot of patience and generosity and forgiveness, and sometimes by the time we come to therapy we may have used.

Up a lot of that over the years.

I would love to see Carla be able to quiet that voice inside that tells her to put her perspective aside and say what she thinks Gwen wants to hear.

And I would love to see Gwen be able to pull from that reserve in the tank for that little bit extra patience and tolerance in order to break that cycle.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilsen.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds.

If you'd like to apply to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

You can listen to part one of my session with Gwen and Carla wherever you listen to your podcast right now.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.