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Yeah, I would have said, probably their worst time in my life was when we weren't communicating, when we were estranged from each other.

It was just it was Yeah, I was completely devastated.

Welcome to this is why we fight real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This series has been designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of other people who are grappling with challenges in their relationships because I firmly believe that we can learn so much from each other.

Today, you're meeting mother and daughter Liesel and Ellie, who recently had a long period of estrangement and miscommunication that left them both heartbroken.

They're hoping that therapy can help them rebuild and repair their relationship.

This episode does contain some heavy topics.

As you'll hear, Ellie has experienced some significant trauma and at times has struggled with her mental health, including suicidal thoughts, So please do listen mindfully, and as always, there are links in the show notes for support.

Here's session one with Liesel and Ellie.

Liesel and Ellie, It's lovely to see you guys today.

I'm looking forward to jumping into whatever's brought you here.

I guess that was Liesel, who I believe you headed this process that you wanted to start some therapy with your daughter.

Yeah, I did.

Yeah when the Mum Meer podcast advertising it.

We weren't in the best time in our relationship, and it prompted me to apply.

And what were you when you say not the best time in your relationship?

What does that look like like?

What are the things that you guys struggle with?

I guess yeah, to articulate it, I guess we sometimes we don't communicate well together and it ends up in big periods of not speaking and it doesn't happen all the time, but it usually when it happens, it's quite big and quite major in our relationship, and it stops us talking for big periods of time.

How long are we talking?

I mean, was it last year or the year before?

We'd like a year.

Yeah, it was like almost a year that we you know, didn't really see each other at all and barely communicated, and it was it was like devastating for me, heartbreaking, and it was difficult on Ellie as well.

Yeah, that was horrible as well.

Yeah.

So I mean even hearing from you there, Elliott, sounds like the distance is really hurtful for the two of you when it gets to that point.

Yeah, yeah, it's really hard on me.

Yeah, it's lonely, I think.

Yeah, yeah, I would have said it's probably the worst time in my life was when we weren't communicating, when we were estranged from each other.

It was just it was Yeah, I was completely devastated.

Yeah, And so I guess the hope is that the two of you can come up with some different ways of problem solving, conflict management communications so that yes, okay, we're still going to have arguments and disagreements, but that it hopefully doesn't get to that point.

Is that really a goal or something that the two of you would like to work towards.

Yeah, I think definitely.

For me, it's the way I communicate with her, And sometimes I think she sees it as that I judge the decisions that she makes, and I see it as trying to give her advice, but it doesn't come across that way to her.

So I guess, yeah, learning how to communicate with each other well, and me to give her a space and not try and control I guess try and control it.

Yeah, yeah, that'd be good.

I think.

Yeah, it's been it's been hard.

I guess, do you think so?

I mean it's interesting to hear liesel your awareness of how you might contribute to the communication going a bit awry, and that's that sort of fit that the way you're communicating makes Ellie feel judged or you know that you're trying to take over or you know better or control Ellie.

What do you think happens on your end?

Like if we just put Mum's contribution aside, can you are there any ways in which you're like, you know what, Yeah, this isn't ideal, or I know that I can get like this or like, what do you see as your contribution to the dynamic between the two of you.

I think I struggle to communicate, so my default is just to just to disappear and process, and that could be really distressing, I think for everyone involved.

Yeah, so when things get rocky, you withdraw or yeah, you sort of cut off.

Yeah, And I struggle with that because I'm I don't never really withdraw.

So it's I just have to learn to wait for her to come back.

So she will just she'll just shut herself down from me for like periods of time, and I just have to keep like I sort of text message her or try to call her.

She's an answer, and I just have to wait until she has process what she's going through and then then we rebuild from there.

M h.

And what happens when you come back, Elie, Like, when you come back, do you have the conversation?

Do you guys end up sort of trying to talk things through, or do you just kind of come back and we're just kind of sweeping under the rug and just hey mom, or you know, just normal stuff.

I think definitely sweeping under the rug.

I think we don't really talk about what happened unless it comes up in sort of an argument.

Yeah, I think I've I've had a good chunk of my life that like she doesn't really know about.

I guess at the moment, Mmm, I think.

Do you want her to know about it?

I think I'm not sure I would like I guess.

I guess there's been times where I've like really really needed support, I've been really really alone, and it's yeah, it would have been it would have been good if there was a way too for both of us to sort of talk without the hostility.

Yeah, So like I do fear for that happening again.

I guess I've Yeah, I've been quite vulnerable.

There's there's been some really horrible things happen in my life and yeah, yeah, it's hard to articulate.

I guess, has your mum been there for you during any of the really difficult times?

Like, have there been phases or periods of your life that you've been vulnerable where mum has been able to be there for you?

Definitely?

Yeah, Yeah, she's been really really supportive.

Yeah, but there's there's been times where yeah, just it's I don't know, Yeah, it's not I'm not sure why.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we why it gets it gets so volatile.

Yeah, because because she can be such a wonderful support to me.

Yeah, and I did want to.

That sort of leads me into what's it like between the two of you when things are good?

You know, like maybe I can hear from you first lease or you know, when things are going well between the two of you, what's the relationship like?

What do you enjoy about your relationship?

Oh, it's it's fantastic.

We're really close.

That's why it's so crazy that we have these big blow ups because we are really close and we get along really really well a lot of the time and have a super close relationship.

And you know, we have so many things in common that we enjoy.

You know, we love fashion and and and you know we love talking about books and movies, and you know, we've got heaps in common.

And it's just really sad that I find it really sad because we are so close, but then there can be this big distance between us when because of our I guess the way the way I communicate to her, but I guess it lets her down.

It's not it's not.

And that's what I have to learn.

And I feel like I'm getting better, but because I guess i'm she sees it as criticism and judgment and I don't mean it that way.

I always mean to be helping her, but I'm not, and which is which is why I think this is going to be good for us.

And I've had been for a long time promising her to do therapy because I want to make it so that it's good all the time, because there's a lot of really good and we love each other and.

It sounds like you've got a really lovely relationship and actual friendship, you know, until it all, which is beautiful.

But then yes, the difficulty is the communication when things go a certain way.

That is the barrier to you guys continuing that friendship together.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

So if it might be easier if we work with an example and like you can kind of choose yeah, whoever wants to choose one, But it might be easier for me to just get a kind of picture of like what happened in some sort of scenario where the communication broke down between the two of you and literally sort of who said what and who did what and then how did they react, And it just helps me kind of get an idea of what it looks like between the two of you and what both of you experienced it as.

Yeah, it can be a little it can be a stupid argument.

It could be a big argument.

It doesn't really matter what kind of one you choose.

Well, there's there's sort of two main ones that I've been thinking about.

And one's like a really really serious one and one's a really dumb one that we had recently.

I love that both a fantastic So whichever one.

Yeah, Well, I guess recently I've been having a really hard time.

So this year, I lost this job that I really loved, and I had a massive falling out with my best friends, like my friendship group, and I was just really really struggling.

And I ended up fostering this dog and with like a friend and yeah, we just we just took on this dog that needed a home and I was sort of talking about it with mom and she doesn't like dogs, and it was it was just this like thing in my life that like I was sort of like I felt good again, I felt happy, Like it was it was really like fulfilling to see this dog, like I guess I come out of its shell because it was from an abusive home, and yeah, I sort of, yeah, we're just we were speaking about it, and she didn't.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

I'm really not sure if I went so wrong.

So from from how I saw it, it wasn't that I didn't want you to have the dog, as that I didn't want Nana to have the dog because you told me that you wanted Nana and Donna to adopt that dog.

That's my sister and my mother.

I just I just said I spoke about it with them.

Yeah, but I was, I was, I didn't mind you having the dog.

I just didn't want Nana to have the dog because she's eighty two and it was a big dog and it was a big sort of one of the aggressive kind of breeds, and I just didn't think that it was a good dog for them to have.

And that's that's what I was saying all.

My like, from my perspective, like my Auntie's really like fit and healthy, and it's a cane courser when she's like so it is like, you know, a bit of a notorious breed, but she was such like a sweet dog, and I just, you know, it wasn't like I wanted them to have the dog.

I just, you know, I thought maybe and like I if they wanted it and if they were capable of looking after it, which I felt was up to them, then I would be able to have an ongoing relationship with the dog because I really, yeah, I really cared about it, and it was just like another thing where like I just I just didn't you know, I've been through a lot of grief in like the past couple of years, and I'm sort of like used to it by now, but yeah, I just I just sort of I don't know, I was just I was just like feeling out if they could take them the dog.

I was that was all.

And what did you experience these or responding to you as like what what happened in the conversation, So there must have been a conversation at some point, And how did you experience the way your mum responded about it to you?

It was quite explosive.

Yeah, she she got she got quite angry about it.

Yeah, she Yeah, she felt like she was really upset that I offered them the dog, especially without consulting her, because I just I just want to I just started talking to them about it because I knew that like she doesn't like dogs, so if I'm going to be talking.

And also I hadn't really been in touch with my family all that much, so it was nice to have something to talk to them about because yet they love animals.

Yeah, it's it's been, it's been lonely and isolating, I guess to be dealing with so much.

So yeah, it was she she got.

Yeah, she was just like really upset.

That just angry.

Yeah, really angry.

M Okay, so you felt like Mum was angry at you, h that she was speaking to you in an explosive way.

So whether that's some yelling or swearing or I don't know, aggressive language or verbally kind of a bit more intense than a normal conversation.

Yeah.

So I didn't see that I was yelling.

So it's weird that I didn't feel I only sort of.

We were young.

I didn't feel that I was yelling.

I just was like voicing my opinion.

I wasn't swearing or anything.

I wasn't like it wasn't you might have dropped an F bomb.

I don't know.

If I don't, I don't know, I don't I didn't see I don't see it as me.

I didn't see it as me yelling at all.

I did only at the very end when I said, oh, great, when you are great?

Now, you know, I think, and now I have to deal with two dogs.

I mean, I don't not like dogs.

I just don't have a dog, and I just I find them.

I'm allergic to them.

So that's probably why, and that's why I don't like dogs.

I'm allergic to them.

But anyway, I don't know.

I didn't that particular example.

I didn't even think that I was raising my voice so much, so you know, I was even more confused.

But is that common, Like, is this a common theme that happens where Ellie feels that you're yelling or that you're angry and that you feel No, I don't think I was that Or is that Is that a theme?

Or is this just a sort of one off that the two of you have different perspectives on, not about what you're arguing about, but rather just how you speak to each other.

I think it's a bit of a theme.

Yeah, I think.

I think, Yeah, I'm I am quite sensitive and I know that, Yeah, you do have a different way of communicating, and yeah, I can I can feel out the volume and the intensity sort of, Yeah, it can be, it can be really helpful.

Yeah, maybe I'm just I guess I'm a blunt communicator.

I have to be more mindful of not being so I guess aggressive in my opinion.

Maybe I wonder whether and I guess this is something, you know, if we're gonna down the track, I think get into a couple of different ways of communicating or different ways of sort of entering in conversations where you feel like, oh, I'm not really agreeing with that decision that Ellie's made or I'm not happy with what she's doing, and sort of how do I go about communicating that?

And I wonder if starting with questions rather than saying things like saying, rather than saying your opinion or saying I don't think that's a good idea or blah blah blah, maybe it could be around finding out a little bit more so like oh, okay, yeah, why do you think that'd be a good idea?

Or you know, yeah, I wonder what you're hoping to get out of this or what made you think about that, or you know, you know, just sort of like trying to do that curiosity before reacting thing, which I wonder, and I don't know, Ellie, you sort of tell me whether that would feel like Mum is at least trying to understand something before just kind of coming in and going, I don't think that's a good idea.

Yeah, it's interesting because I think, Yeah, I guess I guess she she did.

I did see her trying, but I think I saw her getting more and more frustrated with every question as well.

Okay, yeah, last especially last time.

Yeah, which is which is interesting.

That's actually better for you.

Were you were like trying to be patient at least with the dog.

Oh, I wasn't.

That's why it's it's it's a hard argument because I didn't feel like I was criticizing you.

I felt like I was just like being concerned about my mother like that.

That's how I felt that argument like.

I didn't.

I didn't mean for it to be criticizing you at that at that I just didn't.

I didn't want my eighty two year old mother, who's wobbly on her legs to have another dog.

That was that was why it was.

I couldn't understand why I upset you so much, And it.

Was because you know, I need Donna is really fit and healthy, and but.

She works and Nana has the dogs and you know, the dog only needs to walks.

It's like, you know, she can't walk the dog at all.

No, No, but I need I need Donna can.

No, it's I don't know what.

I just offered it to them, and like it was, yeah, I didn't end up working out anyway, and she had to go to a different home.

So so I wonder whether there's something there.

Lizel, where were you concerned that your mum and sister were going to make a decision to take on the dog, because like, if we look at it, Ellie can offer the dog to anybody, right, and surely we can trust that if they you know, if your mother's like, oh, you know, I'm getting a bit older and I'm not physically able to look after such a big dog, that she could make that decision herself, and she did.

Were you worried?

Yeah?

Yeah, So basically I just called them straight away after we had the argument, and they said, no, no, we're not we don't want that dog.

So it was it was they said, oh no, we would never have that dog.

So they were like, I don't know what you're worried about.

So it was all sort of pointless.

In Well, that's why I'm sort of wondering.

Was there a fear that they were going to say yes?

Because I mean you could say to Ellie, look, I you know, I think mum's a bit old and I don't think that's a great idea or whatever.

But in terms of like, you know, you can ask her, she'll probably say the same thing, you know, like it may not.

Was there an intensity behind, like as if she was almost going to have the dog?

And so you're trying to protect your mother, Like it sounds like there was a protective thing happening there.

Yeah, where I'm guessing that your mom kind of made the right decision for her in that way on her own.

Yeah she did.

Yeah, So it was again it was another sort of argument that didn't really need to happen.

I should have just.

That.

It's almost like letting things happen, Like if you had just let that scenario play out, it would have worked out the same way.

Yeah.

So there's something there around control, but under that is fear, right, So there's a fear like they need to control or to manage a situation.

So it's almost like you stepped into like, I need to manage this situation.

We can't have her having this dog.

And not to say there's anything wrong with thinking my mom should not have this dog, but it's the management of the situation.

I think that got exactly the communication or wrapped up between the tools exactly.

Yeah.

I didn't need to have an opinion to be honest.

Oh, you know you can have an opinion.

I think you know.

You can say, Ellie, I don't think that's a good idea, but yeah, you talk with Nan and figure it out.

But yeah, I think it was the protective part of like, yeah, that got things a little bit off track between you.

Yes, because I guess there's an emotion behind that.

It's not just a like, oh I disagree, there's like this emotive, which maybe that's what Ellie's picking up on when you know, and I'm glad to hear you say that you're aware of your sensitivity to people's maybe moods or change in tone or emotion, so you're aware that you were quite sensitive to that.

So maybe Mum didn't feel that angry, but you could sense that she was maybe in the defensive mode of her mother.

Yeah, and I think again, Ellie took it as me criticizing her and putting down her ideas and things that she wants to do.

And so I can I can see that, I can see that she felt that way, and I can see that.

Is that how you felt, Eli, Yeah, it was more just like.

I, Yeah, I was.

I was feeling really lonely, and yeah, I was feeling really isolated.

I hadn't had much joy in my life, and I think I just wanted something to to bond over with my family, and I wanted an opportunity to like hang on to this dog that I really cared about.

Maybe I was extra sensitive just because of like the emotional weight of sort of what she signified.

I don't know it was.

It was it was heavy losing my friends and uh and that job a boyfriend as well, just at all.

Yeah, So it was it was more like, yeah, I probably was really really sensitive, but I think I also needed like an under standing that there was like more to it than just yeah, just just the just offering what may be perceived as a dangerous dog and also knowing that that yeah, like I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it if I had any reason to believe that the dog wasn't safe, like I'd spent a lot of time with her, and yeah, I did think that, yeah, it was a safe dog.

I don't know.

So there's something in what was going on for you at that time, right, So obviously this was a really terrible, like a pretty low time for you where you were feeling vulnerable and were seeking connection, and it sounds like reassurance like you wanted to have a closeness with your family.

Was Mom aware of what you were going through at that time.

I don't really talk about how heavily I'm affected by things.

I think that was, Yeah, that's probably a big aspect, a sort of maybe pretend like it's not affecting me.

I don't like to be vulnerable.

I don't like to be seen as yeah, weak, I guess.

So if we're looking at the things, even just in this particular scenario, the things that are blocking good communication between the two of you, So on Liesel's end, it's the management.

I guess I'm going to call it fear.

There's a need to manage and control and not have something bad happen or not things go a certain way.

And then I think early on your end it's that lack of vulnerability that probably keeps Mum in the dark around what you actually need.

So if Liesel's just looking at this on surface level of like this is you just seeing Nan and Auntie want the dog, and she's like why, I don't think that's a good idea.

She's not really seeing the need underneath there, which is you're really struggling and this was a way for you.

It's like a bid for connection.

You were just trying to, yeah, be close with your family and have something joyful to talk about.

And yeah, so it's like, I think that got completely missed, you know, understandably because on the surface, all that was communicated was about the dog.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's hard for me to communicate all of that, I guess because it is very visible.

Well it was visible what I went through, but it's not visible that I'm not coping with it, right.

Yeah, So yeah, there's an awareness of the circumstances that happened in your life, but you aren't showing that you're struggling to cope.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I guess initially you do.

Initially, I mean because you went to hospital for two weeks.

Yeah, so you know, and so I've I saw it then, like, so, you know, when when she lost the job and and the and the breakdown with with the friends, it was it was pretty dramatic and it was pretty bad, and I was there to support her and she you know, so I saw it then.

But then she when she comes out of hospital and she seems better, and I guess then it's then, is when and she seems well, that I just act normal again and I forget that she's still suffering.

I guess, yeah, I think that's been about and when I've been grieving way, Yeah, it's it's just been sort of forgotten that or yeah, sort of skimmed over that I've been through something really really well.

I've been through a lot of like consecutive really earth shattering things, and yeah, like you know, goes back to when when I lost my fiance and it was like COVID time, and yeah, it was just I guess it was everyone handled it in a really weird way.

We all sort of ignored it, and yeah, I just I guess I feel after that that like there's no point in me expressing like, oh, I'm not dealing with you know, losing this job today.

It's making me feel really insecure about my future and or like I'm not dealing with like losing my friends today.

I feel like I'm never going to find anyone that you know, I get along with like that.

It's it's hard for me to trust that anyone's going to be there for me.

After a short break.

We're going to dig deeper into the ways that Ellie felt let down by Liesel's lack of support and how Liesel felt confused about what Ellie really needed, a very common form of miscommunication in families.

Stay with us, So you feel is it that you feel let down by how Liesel responded?

And maybe others it sounds like, but if just because I've got the two of you here, is that between the two of you that you feel that Liesel didn't support you in the way you needed when you lost your fiancee.

Yeah, it was just a weird time.

I'm not sure what I think.

I think COVID was a weird time.

Yeah, and I wasn't able to, you know, talk about what happened to me, and yeah, the loss that I'd experienced, and and I think that at the time everyone thought that that was like helpful and that was the best way to deal with things.

I understand that, and you know, I don't I don't blame anyone for that, like it's it's but it has had really it's had a big impact on me.

Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean from our perspective, it was, it is it's kind of a big blur.

We were there for her, Like it's not like we weren't there for her.

I mean, we were there straight away when it happened, and we you know, moved her out of the house and had to bring her back home and she lived with us.

And it's not like we just ignored her.

We were there for her.

We just I guess grief is a loss and death is when you haven't experienced a lot of it, how you deal with it is all had don't how do you know how to deal with it?

And I guess, yeah, it was COVID.

We were in lockdown.

We're all in one house, all of us, like the whole grown up family back all in the back in the family home after this huge traumatic experience, and it was really it was extremely traumatic.

And I don't know how any you know, how do you how do you go through grief like that?

And you also got you on a plane and sent you to Darwin, you know, so it's kind of like it all there was maybe that was only a couple of weeks between when he died and you got on the plane and went to Darwin.

So it was kind of I don't know.

It was.

It was so traumatic and so horrific, and yeah, because I.

Felt like I had to get out of the house.

Basically, I was I felt like, you know, I wasn't allowed to talk about what had happened to me, so I needed to leave.

That's why that's why I went to Taiwan.

And I understand, like you know, I'm really really grateful for everything.

Everyone was an amazing support in ways.

It was just that way where I couldn't verbalize what was going on, which.

And I guess sometimes maybe you need to say that, like maybe you need to tell me rather than shut down.

I just I don't trust that it's going to be a smooth conversation.

Basically, yeah, okay, that's why we're here.

How does.

Yeah and Ellie, how does Liesel respond when you do bring up Yeah, So that lack of trust that it was going to be a smooth conversation, Like, where does that come from?

So is there history or the past that tells you, you know what.

Every time, or maybe even fifty percent of the time I bring stuff up to Mum, she responds a certain way, like is there something that you can pull from that gives you that idea?

Yeah, I I guess a lot.

I think we've got a history of Yeah, I'm trying to think, I guess, or even just generally, like what the general theme is, So like, I'm vulnerable.

I say something to Mum and then she does what, like, what's the sort of pattern that that teaches you?

Like maybe I don't think this will go smoothly.

I think, yeah, I'm vulnerable, and then she will do her best to try to help in a way that I think, you know, that's that's how she communicates, and it's yeah, it'll be I'll need sensitive sensitivity.

I suppose I'll need I guess, just someone to hear that I I'm hurting, I'm lonely, and I'm vulnerable.

And I think, yeah, I don't think she deals with vulnerability that well.

So what do you get back instead of her hearing like you know, I'm yeah, like I'm here validating it, what do you get back?

I guess, like tough, tough love.

Maybe yeah, I don't know, I get whatever.

Yeah, tough love.

I'm not I'm not sure how to articulate it.

It's yeah, it can be.

It can be explosive, it can be frustrated, it can be Yeah.

Yeah, she's tough like she's she's just she's just a tough lady.

She's you know, what do you call it?

Lethal weapon?

The's a weapon.

The's a weapon.

Yeah, okay, which I'm sure is an amazing quality in a lot of areas, and maybe not so much in this particular situation.

But yes, a weapon.

Yeah.

M hm.

And I'm a bit I don't know.

I guess I'm a bit of a softy mm hmm.

Liezel do you do you, I guess relate to this perspective of you that you find vulnerability.

Maybe that's not your strong suit or that's sort of not a way of communicating in that sort of more sensitive and vulnerable way.

That's just not something that you particularly do that well or that often.

Or do you feel like, no, I think I am very sensitive and very soft in that way.

What's your perspective of yourself?

Yeah?

Maybe I probably I'm not soft.

I guess I say what I think, and I need to work on that obviously, I think.

But everything I do is out of like concern for her and love for her.

I just you know, it's all trying to help, but it's not helping.

Yeah, it's meant to be loving and help and advice.

And I see these things, the choices that she makes, and I can see that there's going to be trauma from that choice and I and I don't know a way to articulate it or I should just let the trauma happen, or you know, like because a lot of the choices that I see that she makes, I can see is going to be trauma and I'm trying to work out a way to help her to avoid that.

But I just have to let her live a life and then deal with it kind of thing.

That's how I see it in a way.

And I think what I need sometimes is, yeah, for just for things to just play out, you know, trusting that I'm aware that maybe I'm making a decision that like, yeah, you know, this relationship is not going to last very long.

But I just it's just nice to have company and like bebuilding connection with people, and like I don't have to talk to you about it, like you don't have to know about it.

Yeah, Like I think that I also need I need that space too, Yeah, like I can't.

You know.

It's it's it's tough to be completely alone in the world.

I think, well, like I'm processing things, yeah mm hmm.

Yeah.

And I think there's two sides to it, isn't there there's the you're feeling alone because you're not getting the response or support from Lee or that you're looking for.

And then also you withdraw, so then you also create some of the isolation and a loneeness because you pull back as that sort of protective mechanism.

So if we're looking to work on both ends of this process, so one will be around you know, lisl having some different ways to communicate, but then on your end will be how do I observe that urge to withdraw and try and do something different?

And is there a way that I can when I want to withdraw, I maybe I name something that I really need or maybe do you know what I mean?

So it's there's something.

So we don't keep doing that default pattern of pulling back, because it sounds like when you withdraw that's when you actually need someone the most.

Yah, yeah, definitely, because.

When you do isolate, do you feel any better?

No, it's horrible.

Yeah, it's it's really and it's like the hardest way to process things I think is the isolate and like it takes so long and it's Yeah, I end up really quite broken down by it.

Because of some of the past experiences of you communicating something with Mum and then Mum sort of not responding with that sensitivity or compassion or empathy that you were looking for in that moment.

I guess you've sort of taught yourself Okay, well, I just won't do that.

So if we want to try and change this dynamic a little, it'll be observing, you know, moving forward, it'll be observing that default urge and going Okay, I'm going to need to extend like an olive branch of trust, I guess, and I'm going to try and say this to Mum because I'm trusting that Liesel's working on trying to change the way she communicates with me, and I'm working on trying to avoid that disconnect.

So the two of you are going to have to trust each other a little bit in this in this process, in the therapy, where on your end, Lizzle as well as like I'm going to not get it right every time, and I'm you know, I'm probably going to say things wrong and whatever, and I'm going to trust that if Ellie gets upset with me, she may withdraw, but she's going to work to come back quicker or to not withdraw at all.

Yeah, because I'm wondering, if you're used to Ellie withdrawing, does that mean you sit on a lot of stuff that you don't say things, or do you still say what you need?

Really it sounds like it sounds like very.

Challenging for me to not say what I think.

You're not You're not sitting on things, yeah, you're.

Saying yeah, No, But I try really hard.

I try.

I'm very trying.

So I am.

I really want to try hard to let Ellie live her life, let her make her own decisions and and be there for her and not judge and not try to influence her.

And I really want to do that, I really and I really want her to be able to tell me what she's doing and just to let her do it and not judge and not try to try to influence her.

I guess, Ellie, what do you.

What do you think that Liesel judges you about or like, you know, is there something that you're like, Yeah, you know, I haven't told her about this because I feel like she would try to judge or not be impressed with it.

Yeah, I'm I'm queer.

Yeah, so whenever I'm dating women, it's sort of yeah, I won't I won't talk to her about it.

But that's strange because I'm fine with that.

Yeah, but you didn't used to be.

There was a time where you weren't and that might have been like when I was a teenager.

Yeah, yeah, but still I think, like it goes I know you're fine with it now.

I think I would just prefer not to not to have that potential tension.

I'd be happy for you to have a girlfriend.

Yeah, I'd be happy to have your girlfriend.

And I think the stuff that went on with my best friends as well, because I know you didn't approve of one of my best friends and I understand why she was a bit of a controversial figure, I think i'd like to be able to talk about that.

So did it feel like you weren't able to talk about your friendship with this person because Liesel didn't like them or didn't think they were good for you.

Or yeah probably yeah, yeah, because like I do have a lot of love for that person, even though they hurt me.

And I think even even that was yeah, that was confusing and it was I mean, yeah, it ended up being pretty romantically charged.

So it's a lot of heartbreak to go through.

And yeah, it's not it's it's just like more than that, I'm sitting on more heartbreak, more layers to the story.

Okay, so it seems that maybe Liesel is fearing this heartbreak or fearing the pain that this relationship might cause you and therefore expresses her you know, disapproval or you know, not her worries.

Is there a way?

And I think this is the important part, because you know, I think in any relationship, the other person needs to be able to express worries, concerns, or you know, an opinion.

I think opinions maybe can be something you can check, like do you want me to tell you what I think about it?

Are you asking me for advice rather than just giving it?

So I think there's something there on Liesel's end of just sort of like checking like, you know, are you wanting advice or direction around this, or are you just sort of letting me know about your life and you know that can kind of help you, Liesel know which way am I to respond rather than just giving the direction or opinion without it being asked for.

But let's say there's something you know Mum's really worried about.

Is there a way Elie that Liesel could ask you or express that she's worried about something to you where you could hear it.

So it's like, Okay, Mom doesn't have to pretend that she's not worried, but is there a way she could communicate it where you're like, Okay, like Mum's worried, that's not going to change what I'm doing, but I'm hearing her and that's fine.

Yeah.

I think I need to, yeah, be more aware of that, because I, yeah, I am drawn to people that maybe maybe most people I don't know probably would find confronting.

I don't know.

I think I think I'm I'm sort of drawn to that like intensity, and I think like I can I can navigate it well without it, you know, like with and having like a normal sort of response to it.

I guess.

So it's it's a normal response as in like a normal heartbreak, like a normal you know, not like they're in you know, they're ruining my life sort of thing, which I think she's worried about.

And I've had other people where that have ruined my life and have had a really profound effect that they've needed support from her, And yeah, she's so, I guess we need to work out how to communicate, like, yeah, actually this is what you're worried about, this is this is killing me.

But this person, you know, may look like they are dangerous, but I'm navigating it fine, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, I guess.

Yeah, the way I communicate with things to you.

But I sometimes feel like that even if I try and find a way to say it to you in a better way, that it's not you're not going to want to hear it anyway.

Like That's kind of how I feel, But I might be completely wrong with that.

Sometimes I feel like I'm just better off not to just that you live your life and keep my mouth shut and just that if you want to tell me something, you can tell me.

And if you do, you know what I mean.

It's more like I need to be able to tell you, yeah, this is this is dangerous and you know, I need help navigating my way out of it.

Instead of you going, this looks dangerous.

You need to get out of it, because that's going to make me fall into it more because then I'm not I'm not going to have anywhere to go.

And that scares me because that's that's happened before.

And I've you know, I've had that.

I've been completely alone we when we weren't talking.

I pretend it doesn't upset me, but it does.

I try to stay tough about things, but that's I don't know.

I guess another thing, and I'm sitting on Yeah.

No, I I hear you and I understand.

And what she's talking about is when we had the big like almost year where we didn't talk, was I gave my opinion on this certain person she's been talking about that I thought was bad for her, and I just said, I don't like this person, and I think she's bad for you.

I didn't know that Ellie was in a relationship with her.

She never told me that it was complicated.

Yeah, And I think it would be important for Liesel to be able to share worries, particularly if they're worries that could lead to your life or well being being threatened or you know, a big detriment to those in some way.

Because I think you know, this is part of whether it's mother, a friend, partner, you know, someone who cares about us needs to be able to share if they're worried about something bad happening to us in relationship.

But there's obviously something happening in the way that's being delivered.

And I think you were saying just before Liesel that you feel like, even if you changed the way you communicated it, you don't feel like Ellie wants to hear anything that is disapproving of her decision making.

Is that what you were sort of getting at.

Yeah, I think so, Yeah, definitely, I don't.

I think unfortunately, she perceives everything that I say as a as a criticism to her, and I don't always mean them as a criticism to her.

Sometimes I'm genuinely trying to help.

I wonder if Ellie is asking the help or wanting that help, and that's where it's getting cross.

Yeah, absolutely, and she doesn't so and that's what I've got to let I've just got to learn to let her live her life.

And I mean, but I really I did need help.

I really needed help.

I was I was really you know, I was trying to express to you like I was in a really vulnerable way and I needed yeah, like I needed somewhere to go.

I needed help in a different way.

And I did try to communicate that, it just wasn't received.

But so what you wanted from Liesel in that was understanding that you needed to leave this bad relationship, and we you hoping for a place to stay or support in finding somewhere else.

So what we're you hoping from.

Yeah, just support in leaving that relationship.

Yeah, when we come back, we delve into the ways that trauma can impact relationships and interfere with even the best intentions.

And I'll assign Liesel and Elie the homework that I want them to work on between sessions.

Don't go away.

I think this can happen a lot where when there's mental health involved.

Yeah, we can kind of question the perspective or decision making or even the reality of the other person because we're sort of wondering, is this through the skew of you know, any particular mental health condition that might be happening here.

I guess this is where that's kind of muddy the waters, and so you didn't get the support that you felt you needed of like, you know, whether it's like I'm so sorry this is happening, What do you need?

What else can I do?

Is that sort of what you would have preferred?

Yeah?

Yeah, I'm like really committed to getting better and improving my mental health and making better choices.

And you know, it's what I've spent so much time in hospital after these big traumatic events is because like it's so important to me that they don't leave a scar, and I just I keep moving and I do better in my life.

I get better and I heal.

And yeah, I think I think I need you to trust that even if it looks like I'm doing something messy or crazy, I'm like doing it because I want to be better.

I'm not I'm not trying to throw my life in the gutter.

And it has been like a chaotic few years.

I understand that.

And maybe it has looked like my decision making hasn't been the best, and it hasn't at times, but I think, you know, I couldn't know that these things were going to happen until they did, and I I think I think I did really well to get through everything.

Despite it all, Well you did.

You're still here.

Yeah, mm hmmm, mm hmm, yeah you did, and you are doing really really well because I know it's it's you know so much having had so much trauma.

It's it's it's horrible, it's it's really sad, and you know, I don't want to add to it, and I do just want to be support to you, and I just want to learn, and I want you to be able to tell me stuff and not feel that I'm going to judge you.

So in that that part there is really what we're going to start looking at working on.

So it's sort of like now it's going to be like a practice phase of like we're trying to change our usual way of communicating when things come up that you know, would normally cause a bit of a problem.

So I think part of it too might be both of you need to avoid drawing back to the past because if this is like the two of you committing to trying to do something different, So if you come into this process going, oh, well, every time I do this and then Ellie issue does that, so you know that pulling back from the past will stop you from changing your behavior.

Which is so if we just focus on yourselves in terms of you know, for example, Ellie, where there's that you know, Mom didn't used to be okay, if I had partners that weren't men, or you know whatever.

If Mom is saying I am okay with it, I'm happy, I'm you know, and I would love for you to share that side of your life with me being able to go, okay, oh, let's let's try that, you know.

And so it is taking a pretty big step of trust.

And of course if that goes to shit, well we will talk about it.

You know what I mean.

It's yeah, like that's the point of this process is that we need to both be a bit vulnerable, not let the past dictate what we're trying to do now.

And if it doesn't go well, that's part of the therapy is that we talk about, well, what went wrong there?

Mama thought you were trying to be a bit more understanding and not be judgmental.

What happened, you know.

So it's going to be all part of the process.

But inevitably, I think the two of you seem quite committed to really trying to do something different.

So if you're not able to give each other a bit of trust to let the other person show you they're doing something different.

It'll keep being stuck in this pattern.

Yeah, yeah, so we'll feel a bit vulnerable, a bit scary, you know, on both sides.

But it's basically going to be asking the two of you to sort of do little changes to change your default patterns.

So Lisal, it would be more around asking so prompt.

If Ellie hasn't made the need clear, I'd be prompting her about it, like what is it that you need or like I'm not sure, like do you want me to give you advice?

Are you asking for help?

Or do you want me to just listen?

Like so just really kind of prompting that when she's sharing something of importance where you're feeling like, oh no, the danger's going off in my mind, Like really just checking with her what she needs first, and then I think on your end, Ellie, there'll be some sort of exercises around how do I avoid withdrawing When I want to withdraw, I need to offer something instead.

So I need to share what's really going on, or I need to share my need that I want met at them, or how can I be supported because I think your need often gets lost.

Yeah, and I'm going to trust that Mum is going to try to support me and not maybe do some of her previous behaviors where it felt critical or it felt judgmental.

And it may not work every time, but we've got to give each other the opportunities to change the behavior.

Otherwise you can never really show that anything's different.

Yeah, and I'm wondering whether there's something there around I guess rebuilding some of the or repairing rather some of the ruptures where the communication hasn't gone great and you know, for example, feeling like you weren't believed or things like that.

And I wonder what that would look like in terms of repair, because that's been a barrier for you.

Eli in terms of wanting to share things.

Is like, okay, well when I have I've been burnt in different ways, Like, Yeah, what would the repair for that look like for you?

Is it you know, and hearing being validated or hearing LIESEL share that she understands how that response has impacted you, or is it you feel like you've kind of discussed it and she gets it now, Like what does it look.

Like for you?

Yeah?

I think trusting I mean you maybe giving me space to be yeah, damaged and sad.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, So it's not just yeah me, I don't know.

Yeah, I think believing, Yeah, just just believing that it's It's tough to articulate because yeah, I guess I'm so used to not being able to express it at this point.

I guess like trusting that I will come to you with what is the real problem, even though it might look like there's other problems.

And I'll try and do that this week.

I'll try and come to you with, like what the real problem is instead of the things that might look like problems.

Mm hmmm.

It'd be good because if I knew, then I would then I would know what to talk to you about or what not to talk to you about, rather than leave everything just you know, we went to the movies last night, stuff like that, Like if you hear stuff you want to tell, you need to tell me so that I know, because otherwise I don't.

Yeah, And it might even be liesel if Ellie shares something with you and you're feeling, you know, the anxiety go up and oh my god, this is going to be bad.

H blah blah blah.

You could eat.

You know, it's not about hiding it or pretending it's not happening.

You can even name it and say, Okay, I can feel myself, you know, wanting to do my usual thing and I'm trying not too so even if it's like give me a minute, I'm going to just like get myself together and like, you know, but it's you're a human being, and I think for you, even Ellie, just seeing like okay, mom's trying not to do that thing.

You know, I'm going to give her a second.

But I think you can sort of just name it of like all right, I'm really not wanting you to feel judged or criticized right now.

Yeah, do you want me to just listen or do you want advice?

Do you want me to kind of come around and support you with something like you know, what is it that you need from me?

So if you're feeling that anxiety go up or the need to like oh god, you know, don't improve of this or this is not good, maybe just the instant redirection is asking Ellie what she needs or offering different options.

Yep, yeah, it's because the point is it's not about being perfect, it's just trying something different, and I don't know, We're probably coming to the end of our time soon, but I do want to ask and I'm not sure Ellie if you want this to be said on the podcast, so we could cut this bit out if required, But I just I did want to ask around mental health diagnosis and you know what Mum's understanding of those are, because that can play a big part in communicating and understanding each other when one or both people in a family or in a relationship have certain diagnoses.

Yeah, so I'm not sure if you're open to talking about that or not.

Yeah, definitely, I'm oven to talking about it.

Yeah, I have.

I've been diagnosed with complex PTSD and ADHD, so I know that the ADHD has I guess, yeah, that's really affected our relationship because it's you know, it's it's one of those things where as a young you know, when I was young, I came off as combative and difficult, and I guess like I was, I was always like seeking sort of extremes.

I know, on the spectrum where you were Yeah that was.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's also been discussed, like, yeah, what is but m yeah, that's the ones that are like confirmed are yeah, ADHD and yeah, I mean that can look like yeah, that can be that can be similar.

Yeah, and complex PTSD when we diagnosed with that, So.

That's uh yeah, twenty twenty probably before then.

Human Lisa, if I can ask you, what is your understanding of complex PTSD, Like, are you quite across it?

Do you know what the symptoms are and how and why people can be diagnosed with complex PTSD?

Yeah, I do, like I've you know, researched it and I understand right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I guess that's why I'm so protective and trying to I'm always trying to prevent it more of it, and I guess it doesn't come across that way, but that's my intention.

I'm just trying to help her not have more PTS and more trauma.

Yeah, because I can see it coming and she can't see it because she doesn't see it that way because of her neurodiversity.

She doesn't always see these things coming.

But sometimes trauma is inevitable, like sometimes it's just part of life.

So there's been situation through It's like I know that this isn't necessarily going to end well, but it's like a very normal thing to have, you know, like flings that may not be you know, it might not be the one, like you're just dating around and experimenting, and like, you know, there's there's stuff where I just have to like I'm confident that I can handle my way through it.

And it's not something that's going to crush me, but it is going to crush me if I don't have support around me.

It's it's going to hurt a lot more if I if I don't have support, And I know it can like look silly, but it's like if I can just come and be like, oh, yeah, you know, how to break up lost the dog sucked?

You know, I'll be over in a weekend, but it'll it'll like completely collapse me if I can't, you know, just have like a chill conversation with you about it, like yeah, yeah, I understand.

Yeah.

So I think there's something there in for lis l there around being able to tolerate Ellie being in pain or you know, Ellie suffering I guess, or your perception that Ellie's suffering.

And I think for any parent that is a tough ask, right, you know, to to just watch your kids struggle or suffer and of course there's that innate need to want to fix or protect or you know, all of that.

However that's been actually causing more suffering in this situation.

Yeah, so I wonder whether there's something if we're looking at the fear on your end leasel of Yeah, if Ellie goes through something traumatic again or if something bad happens, like where does it go for you?

Does it go to that she's going to die or that she's going to commit suicide or that you know, like where does it go?

Yeah?

I do?

I do.

Yeah, fear that a lot, a lot.

I do fear that a lot.

I've I've probably said many times, I don't know if she's going to have a long life.

Wow, Like, well, she you had a life expectancy of thirty one with your mental health or something, didn't you?

And one of that's one of the Yeah, one of the doctors said her degree of her mental health, she's a life expensive expectancy of thirty one.

And I probably said to my partner a couple of times, I don't she might not be here for very long.

I do fear that.

I fear that a lot.

And that's I guess that's what drives a lot of me trying to get involved in trying to prevent that from happening.

But she does.

She does.

Managed to keep on hanging in there and going and you know, and we seem to have like have got a good way to manage it now where but where she can go into the to the women's hospital, which is really good for her.

And I'm confident that every time it gets really really bad, she can go in there and she comes out a lot better.

So there's safety planning so that you both feel confident about whatever safety planning there is if things get to sort of crisis level or which I think is fantastic.

I guess it's the attempt to prevent before things get to that crisis that end up, I guess pushing things in the wrong direction.

Ellie, at you aware or does it feel like you're acutely aware of mum's worries about you, about you dying or about something really terrible happening to you?

Do you know that she worries about that a lot?

Is that expressed to you or is it more you kind of just you get that that's how she feels.

I didn't not to that degree.

I guess yeah, I didn't.

I don't know because I don't.

I don't necessarily feel that way like I think, Yeah, I do.

I do my best to to stay here and to you know, I've been I've been building my life and i've been yeah, trying to you know, make a place for myself and the world, and it's not been easy.

But yeah, I hope, I hope that you can see that I'm really really trying to, you know, to hear and I don't you know, I'm not I'm not going anywhere.

Yeah, I'm not going anywhere.

I want to stick around.

That's good because I didn't know that sometimes because you have said, you know, you have said that you that you felt that you didn't want to be here.

Yeah, you know, to me multiple times.

Yeah, I'm glad that.

I'm glad that that's that's the case, because it is a fear for me, like a constant fear.

Yeah, yeah, I understand.

I'm happy that you said that because I like, that's a Yeah, that's the first time you've you've said that to me, because sometimes you I don't get that.

I do worry about you, but but I do.

But I also, on the other hand, I do see that you are you have got you know, goals and plans and and I believe in you.

On the on the other hand, I do believe in you.

I believe that you're going to get out of this and and that you can be hugely successful and have a have a have a have a long life if we if we can you know, work through this together.

Yeah, it's beautiful to see the two of you really want that relationship between each other, you know, like it seems very clear that you want the same thing, and so there's no reason why it can't happen with the two of you having that intention and commitment just trying things a little bit differently, being I guess empathetic or compassionate when the other stuffs it up, because it is going to be a bit of a you know, like a teething process with trying to do things a little differently.

But I'm hoping when we catch up next week that yeah, the two of you will have tried a little bit of something different and we'll see it went well it didn't go well, because I think that there isn't really a barrier that is unworkable between the two of you, which I think is really positive to see.

Yeah, I think so.

I think Ellie keeps some forgiving me.

Yeah, And I think I gotta remember that, like, you know, you are feeling anxious, and I do have to reassure you that you know, yeah, because I do grow quiet and I understand that's scary.

Now, all right, guys, look, I appreciate your honesty, your openness, your thoughtfulness.

Yeah, it's been really lovely talking with you both today.

Thank you, thank you.

Now, you've been fantastic.

Thank you.

Lison l came to therapy together to really work on some of their communication patterns that have caused both of them quite a lot of pain.

At times breakdown and distance and isolation and other times arguments and disruptive patterns that I think really don't serve them well in terms of what their other side of their relationship is, which is a really lovely and fun and open sort of relationship.

So I think that they were both looking for a different way to communicate, and I think Ellie was also looking for a different way for her mum to support her.

Something a lot of parents struggle with is when it comes to parenting adult children, is being able to transition from that parent child relationship to parent adult child, which can cause a lot of friction on both ends.

Often there'll be difficulties in managing anxiety, worries wanting to be able to protect our children, and for the adult child that can often feel smothering, that they're not being seen, that they're not being understood or heard, or not being given the space to make their own decisions, make their own mistakes, and that can cause, as we can see here with Liesel and Ellie, a bit of a communication breakdown.

So I think that is the work here with Liesel and Ellie and parents in general, is how do I respond to the need and what my child is presenting me, even my adult child, rather than trying to figure out what the problem I think is happening and what I think needs to be done.

The way I'm feeling about that session is I guess hopeful.

I think that's that's the biggest thing.

It was.

It was really good to sort of express some things that I've been struggling with and sitting on with with Mum.

I think that Mum, I have no idea how Mum's going to be feeling.

Probably anxious.

Actually, I think I'm hoping she's feeling hopeful as well, but I think, yeah, I think that was probably a lot more intense than she expected.

I don't know.

I don't, I honestly don't know.

She's pretty tough.

I hope that we will be in a place I guess that's a bit that's a bit happier.

I think that's that's a bit more relaxed, and I think, I guess, I guess a place where there's less explaining to do on both sides.

I think it'd be good to be in a place where we trust each other a lot more and yeah, well we've had these big conversations and you know, just feel a bit more relaxed around each other.

The way I feel about that session was I think that Sarah was absolutely amazing.

I think that she considered both of our sides and was able to articulate them really well and make us both feel comfortable or she certainly made me feel comfortable and like didn't make me look make me feel bad, or make me look bad.

And I think, yeah, it was.

It was really good and I got a lot out of it.

And I think it was good because I got a bit out of Ellie as well, and stuff that she doesn't normally say to me or you know, I've got to see how she feels.

And yeah, it was amazing.

It was.

It was really really fantastic about the homework.

I'm looking forward to it because I really do want to get the most out of this process and I'm going to do it and I'm going to throw my whole self into it because I just want our relationship.

I don't want to go through this stuff again with Ellie.

I want it to be just, you know, all happiness going forward.

I know it's not life, it's not all happiness, but I just want to avoid any kind of conflict with her, and I'm looking forward to doing my homework.

My hopes for next session is to see Liesel and Ellie giving the homework a good go, and I hope to hear that they've had some opportunity to do something different, for the same pattern to present itself, and for one or both of them to not do the default and do a different behavior, and even to be able to sort of be a bit more open with each other about their struggles, even in changing the actual dynamic.

I'm hoping that Ellie can trust and allow herself to be a little bit more vulnerable with Liesel, so that Liesel has the opportunity to show that she is trying to work on the way she responds and that she wants that closeness with Ellie.

The second part comes out in a few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now, follow the link in the show notes to listen.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilsson.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill, Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds.

If you'd like to apply to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.