You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters this podcast was recorded on.

This podcast has been produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants, all of whom have chosen to share their biggest relationship struggles in the hopes of helping other people.

All participants have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

I don't know what you understand about how much work I've done on myself, how much healthyer I am, and how much I think about you and your children on a daily basis and want to be in your lives.

I don't think you understand.

You've not demonstrated any of that.

You talk the talk, but you don't follow through.

That's your mo o.

You say all these things, but I never see any action.

Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This series has been designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of other people who were grappling with challenges in their relationships, because I firmly believe that we can learn so much from each other.

Today you're meeting Gwen and Carla.

Forty five year old graphic designer Carla and fifty two year old nurse Gwen are sisters.

Living in Perth.

Before we dive into this session, I want to prepare you for the fact that for Carla, this conversation brought a lot of very raw emotion to the surface, and for Carla that meant that she was crying for quite a lot of this session.

I think this is a good opportunity to talk about why it's so important to be able to listen past the tears which can be confronting for the other person in the conversation, and this is the reality of the big feeling that come up in therapy.

Here's session one with Gwen and Carla.

Hi.

Gwen, Hi, Carla.

I hello, it's good to see you both.

Just wanted to see where both of you were at at the moment in terms of starting this process.

You know, I think therapy is always a bit scary, even if it's on our own, but when we come in with a family member, a friend, or partner.

I don't know if that makes it more or less scary, But yeah, what are you coming into this process hoping?

Maybe I'll start with Carla.

That's such a good question.

I would like to have a better relationship with my sister.

What would that look like like?

What would a better relationship with your sister look like for you?

It'd be more warmth, it'd be more kindness, it be more communication and more connection.

Has it been like that before?

I?

Yes, yes, And I.

Guess somewhere along the way things have changed.

Yes, I think so it's something we've never had the chance to talk about.

And yeah, that never seems to be an opportunity these days to talk about each other with each other and let each other know how we're feeling.

Yeah, And do you think this is something that is a dynamic in your family?

Like, do you see this as potentially how the family operates, is that we all don't really talk too much on that kind of level with each other, or do you see this just between the two of.

You, No, no one talks very well.

But I've felt it's okay.

I felt that when it.

Comes to my sister, we have had a closeness and the ability to communicate best out of everyone.

Yeah, so I guess this is where you're at today, going okay, well, something has deteriorated what I think at one point was more open and closer communication.

Yes, maybe I go.

To you, Gwen, what would you like out of today or out of this process?

Out of the process, I'd just like some trust, some honesty.

We're very much a family that the communication has always been a massive issue.

We just don't talk, and I know that's something with my family.

I've tried to make sure that doesn't happen, but I guess it's still something that I struggle with as an adult, especially with family members.

So it'd be nice if that was better.

Things won't like that.

So it sounds like you're both observing the same pattern in the family of this.

We don't talk about stuff, We don't really go beneath a surface.

Yeah, And it sounds like both of you want that to be different.

Yeah, yeah, Okay, this.

Is not a bad place to start.

You know, when we're looking at two family members trying to repair a relationship, you've both got a similar perspective of what the family dynamic is, and you both have a want to change it or repair it in some way between the two of you.

Yeah.

Yeah, can you Gwen tell me whether because we heard a little bit from Color about what she would like between the two of you, so a bit more closeness, a bit more kindness, compassion, I think, is that something that you would like between the two of you.

Yeah.

I'd like to be able to count on my sister, so sure when it comes to she's the only auntie of my children, and I would you know, like them to have a close relationship as well.

Carla's what's happening over there for you?

I've never had it expressed.

How I haven't shown up in the way that you'd like me to.

I'm not sure exactly where I'm missing the mark for you, because I certainly have the highest intentions and would do anything for your children.

Yeah.

I think when something's happened, you haven't let me know what it was, and you've bottled it up a little and haven't explained to me.

Where I've let you down.

I disagree.

I disagree that as an adult that you would need to be.

You know, for years you've not visited my children.

You've not made that effort to see them when the opportunity has been there for you to be able to do that, and that's been put back on, oh, well you didn't want me there or you didn't ask me to come and visit, and that relate.

I don't agree with that.

I think as the auntie, you should step up more, I guess, for lack of a better word, and be present, more present with them.

I guess is what I'm saying.

Because we don't have any other family, like there's no there's no one else.

And I have very as to you.

I have very good relationship with two of my aunties especially, and I would love for my kids to be like that.

But yeah, things have happened, and I.

Guessed, have I said to you something like I didn't come along because I wasn't invited or was that told to you by someone else?

It doesn't matter what is said or what is told.

If you turn us I I don't.

If you want to be a part of their lives, you're an adult, you be part of their lives.

You make that happen.

So maybe there are two different stories going on or understandings about why something's happening or not happening.

Right in this case, the Carla coming to see the kids.

We've got Gwen, who is I don't know.

I'm going to put words in your mouth and you tell me, is feeling let down or confused about why Carla hasn't been as involved in her kid's life as you wanted?

Do you or do you want?

Do you have an understanding about why it's happening or a story that you believe is why it's happening.

Look, part of it is my fault because things have happened, and I don't trust different.

You know, I don't trust my kids too to stay up a night, and that's I just don't.

I just don't.

There's there's a level of dishonesty.

There has been a level of dishonesty, and I just don't and I just don't like it.

I don't like that.

I don't trust her.

I don't trust that she will do what she says she's going to do, Okay, And that's and it's not about what someone said or what someone's done.

It's what I've seen, It's what I've had, the actions I've seen, Karla.

Is this the first time you've heard this or is this something you were already aware of?

How Gwen feels, it's the first time I knew.

They that she didn't trust, have their trust for me, and did it feel comfortable with them in my presence.

We've never had this conversation in your presence.

You're making it sound like I don't want you around them at all.

No, but it's see I see it differently.

I see it that it's always about you, that it's never about anyone else.

So it's about your feelings and how you feel.

No, no, no, no, no.

I think I know where you're coming from, and that's thanks for saying that.

I just don't know what sort of understanding you've got of how I live my life.

I don't know what you understand about how much work I've done on myself, how much healthier I am, and how much I think about you and your children on a daily basis and want to be in your lives.

I don't think you understand, and I've not shown.

You've not demonstrated any of that.

You talk the talk, but you don't follow through, and that's your that's your mo o.

You say all these things, but I never see any action.

Gwen.

What would what would action to back up those words look like?

For you?

So if I saw, yeah, if I saw Carla showing what she said there.

What would it look like?

It would look like, respecting my boundaries, respecting my children's boundaries, turning up when they needed you to turn up, not when you decided that you wanted to turn up, not sending my When I asked my son, you know we went to soccer, want to introduce me to his girlfriend?

Right?

This is just an example, just pops in my head.

Okay, it's a big deal.

He's not had a girl friend before, or just wanted mum there, you know, so I said to mum and I said, ta, Carla, he just wants me there when he meets his girlfriend.

And she sent a message, not one, but too big long message telling her how she felt about not coming to the football and what it meant to her and that, and it's like she missed the whole point.

It was not about her.

It was about something that he wanted to do and show his mom.

It had nothing to do, it was nothing to be offended by.

But not once and then I asked again.

I said, we've explained this to you, thank you for your understanding.

And again a message comes through saying I sat there and.

I apologize, but it moves so much to me.

He's fifteen years old.

Okay, I truly apologized, and I'm so sorry to have upset you.

You don't need to apologize.

You just need to understand people's boundaries and what you want to do and what other people want to do.

It's not always the same thing, and that's okay.

It doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

It is what it is.

I think that's the biggest thing that I struggle with is, you know, I feel Karla wants us to be this certain way and be this certain family, and I get it, but we're just not.

And it's neither of our you know, It's how we were raised.

We were raised in a very emotionally I don't know, for lack of a better word, immature, immature, non existent.

You know, we were those kids that, oh, look at me, I've got all these kids.

We existed, but we weren't.

You know.

We were fed, we were given shelter, but we weren't given much else.

Yeah.

I know when my kids say, because my son says it all the time, I love you, I love you, I love you to everyone.

And when he says that to Mark, like our mum, she's like.

Oh, what's this?

Yeah?

What is this?

Yeah?

You know, I've seen it happen.

So that's where we come from, and that's how we are.

That's how we interact with each other because we don't know any any different, any different.

It's just that's how it's always made, Gwen.

Do you think that there's potential for it to change, at least in this generation level of between you and your sister, so I hear that there's some understandings that need to be you know, reached, and some boundaries and understand you know, I guess understanding the boundaries and what they mean and being able to talk better about when things go wrong.

If that was able to happen, do you think there could be some change around this sort of ingrained family pattern of we just don't talk about things because part of this issue is between you, is that it hasn't been talked about.

H Yeah.

And I'm I think that the thing that bothers me is the kindness.

Like I am a I'm not an unkind person.

I'm an honest person and I would tell it how it is, but I'm not unkind, So I'm not sure on that.

Well, I think it's important for us to look at both of your experiences of each other.

And often people can experience us very differently to how we are intending or even what we think they're experiencing us as And so I mean, I'll check with you, Carla.

Do you feel that you get much kindness from from Gwen?

Sometimes sometimes there's a lot of anger and coldness.

And I would like it if we could say how we are feeling about things instead of being aggressive or short or cold, because I think.

I'm really missing some of the things.

That I might be doing that don't sit well because my intentions are to show up and be there, and I have organized this year my roster as best I could every month to get certain things off and I've been successful on a lot of those times, but sometimes I haven't been.

So it's not me showing up when I feel like.

It, it's when I have that availability.

But yeah, I think there is some real aggression and pain behind our communication.

When we come back.

How do you communicate when two people have drifted so far apart from any common ground stay with us?

So I guess if we think about what Gwen said earlier, where Gwen feels like at times that you are unreliable, or that you don't respect boundaries.

It would make sense if that's how Gwen feels, it would make sense to be short or frustrated or angry.

Right, So, like if we just step into Gwen's world, where that's her experience, it would make sense to be communicating in that way, and we step back into your world, where I guess you're either unaware of some of the boundary crossings or where things might have gone wrong.

You were receiving the frustration and not understanding why it's happening.

It just seems like my sister is speaking to me rudely or shortly.

Yeah, or just not understanding my actual intentions.

Like, I just want to say that if you think that I just think about me and make it about me, then maybe that's something to work on.

Definitely, that all year, knowing sometimes his parents aren't at sporting events, I have had my absolutely hardest for him to know that someone's in the stand watching.

Yeah, And I've always appreciated that that's not that's not what I'm showing.

That means, Okay, let's go, what's what's showing up.

Yeah, It's been actively a part of their lives.

It's being actively a part of my life.

It's you know, you go months, like years of no contact or not talking, you know, and you insist, yes, really, And I know you're going to say, oh, but you never answered the phone when I rang, I don't answer the phone.

You know why I don't answer the phone.

My previous work has made me frightened to answer the phone.

It's just it's just how it is.

You know, I've acknowledged that it's just been you.

I don't know why you're laughing, because there's this true you don't.

You don't really behave like seeing me is a good idea.

Because you turn up.

You just turn up out of the blue.

You don't ask what are you doing?

What are you doing?

What are you doing?

You know?

Do you want to come over?

I'm a hin town.

Do you want to catch up?

You do it like oh my gosh.

And then when I can't because it's out of the blue, because you know I've got small children or I'm working, it's like.

Oh, it's never been Oh I'm disappointed, perhaps because I really like seeing you.

So you know that you can't just turn up out of the blue.

You know, I need more than a day's notice.

You don't know, No, I don't turn up.

Sometimes I think if we can't get to an agreement about what has happened in the past, then it can be more useful to plan forward, you know what I mean.

So if we've got two different memories, realities, perceptions of what's happened in the past, we can probably go on about this for hours and it doesn't really get us anywhere.

What is more important is to think about Okay, So if we're trying to create a relationship between us where we can both feel like we can express ourselves and that our needs and our boundaries can be met, what would that look like going forward?

And I think getting really specific around it, so, you know, in terms of using specific examples or saying, you know, I would love for you to come and visit.

You know, if you text me or whatever a month in advance and we make a date for you to come and stay, that would make me happy as an example, but you know, getting really specific around what that would look like.

Now, if for whatever reason, that doesn't end up working out, or you feel like Karla didn't respect the you know, the date that you'd arranged or didn't end up coming ended up popping up on a different day, then a discussion will be had.

This is what I'm talking about, Carla.

This is what I mean, because I think going backwards is probably not going to help us to go through every single scenario where you both may have different perceptions.

Yeah, look, this stuff is very personal, isn't it.

I mean it's your close family relationships where there's feelings of I mean it sounds like on Carla's end, feeling like she's not wanted, and then on Gwen's and yeah, sorry, go on, Carr.

I'm sorry to interrupted.

Honestly, Gwen, am I wanted?

Yeah, you're my sister.

But why do you think that you're not wanted?

Why do you think that?

That's what I'm curious about?

Can I can I pause us there for a second?

No, no, yeah, I'm purposely interrupting there, Gwen, just because I want to.

I would like to hear you, Gwen, just say, just answering the question.

Because so we've got Carla looking for reassurance or looking for the kindness, compassion, the emotion, and you gave it very quickly.

But then and then and then instantly went to not defensive, but something that was a bit more defensive in behavior.

Sure, So I don't know whether you can answer Carla's question about whether she's wanted and just leave it with a full stop before going into anything else.

You can yes, yes, you wanted, and.

Maybe why she's wanted.

We go.

Because she's my little sister.

And you know, I teach my kids that family is or you've got at the end of the day, and that's that's what it is.

And she knows that you know, myself and my husband will do anything for her she's in trouble or anything, because she knows that she can ring us and we would be there in a flash she needs anything at all.

Do you know that color?

I don't know.

I can rid you.

We've done it in the past, so you have you have correct no questions asked, and that was amazing.

This is so hard.

I guess.

You just mentioned your husband.

I don't want it to be something that yes, it's you're open to me asking for help from you, or calling and asking for help if I needed it.

I'd like it more to be you're open to be contacting both of you and having more of a relationship.

I've found that very very hard.

Over the last quite a long time.

In terms of the phone calls, I feel like there's a kind of easy work around that.

One would we say in terms of if phone calls are triggering, can a text set up a call or you know, can we do things like that and whether that's been tried before and it didn't work or there's been avoidance of that, But what have we tried to do to work through that?

Yeah, this sort of Gwen's difficulty in getting sort of phone calls.

Yeah, in Colour's defense, she has at times it's like finally understood, and so she will text me and say if she needs a call or whatever.

So that has gotten better, okay?

And is that and I think this is where we really need to be doing positive reinforcement for the things our friends, family and partner does for us.

So does it get met with positive reinforcement?

Yeah, I've always wrung her, I've always text her back.

Maybe not always, but more so than not, if I'm honest, depends on what I've got going on in my life as well.

You know, sometimes I'm not in a great space.

No one's ever considered that, That's how I feel.

No one ever considers what I might be going through.

I might be suffering from I disagree.

I do consider that, and I want I actually worry about it.

I'm really somehow a lot worried.

I can't become quite worried.

Because there's probably things in your life stopping you from doing things that I'd like to improve, and I don't know what they are.

And I think.

There's been times where we've bubbled along quite well and then it's just got plummets right back down again.

But I do worry.

I do think about what you've got going on and what I perhaps would think even if you don't have a capacity to talk to me that week, that month, say hey, I've got a lot going on, I'll.

Be in touch with you.

But I really don't get those when I've tried to call or talk to you in messages that a lot of the time, I'm just left on red.

But I'm not sure if we're rehashing.

Sorry, no, it's okay.

I think it's relevant to bring up, you know, past things in terms of why we think this may not work in the future.

So you feel that you haven't been responded to when Gwen might be going through things.

Yeah, And I'm left to wonder.

If there's something happening, it's more pressing, or I've upset my sister.

Maybe it's nothing to do with you, correct, But I don't know, And it's torture.

You've never said that, you've never sent me a message just say that, just let me know you're okay or whatever, because it's not when I'm dealing with what, it's never about anyone else.

What's the fear, Carla?

If you were to have said, hey, are you upset with me?

Or you haven't written back?

Is it something that I've done?

Has there been something that's held you back from asking?

When that question?

Not?

Really?

I have actually said messages along those lines, one recently that I didn't get a response.

No, because it was about this podcast.

Oh okay, I didn't want to talk to you about that because we're talking about it now.

Okay.

You could have said that, and what does everything always have to be about you?

It's not the silence, though, Well why couldn't you?

Maybe you could have sent a follow up text message?

Is everything all right?

If not sent back to me?

Maybe let's let's try.

And because I think here there's two sides of the accountability.

Yeah, so I do think that Gwen's well within her you know, rights to not wish to talk before coming on and doing this process.

But it's very hard to I mean, I guess there's a silent boundary.

There isn't it.

So it's just in my lack of response, I'm expecting you to know that I don't want to talk, which I don't think is which is kind of that, you know, perpetuating the family dynamic of we don't really say things.

Yeah yeah, So I don't know, Gwen, can you see where that if we were to be trying to change the dynamic is okay, I need to be more forthcoming if I don't want to talk, I might need to be more forthcoming about saying.

That yeah, sure, yep, hundred percent degree.

And then the flip side of that though for Karl and Carla's end would be that and then I need to be able to respect that boundary, even if it's hurtful or if it's not what I wanted being able to go.

Okay, I understand.

Is there a time where you feel like it would be a better time to talk, you know, so you can still kind of have your need expressed of like I really wanted for us to be able to talk but if you don't want to, that's okay.

But is there a better time?

For example, if if Gwen's lack of responses to your messages, do you feel like even a response pushing back saying she doesn't want to talk or now is not a good time?

Would that feel better to you than the no response at all?

It would?

Yeah, it give me something to go on, and maybe I could step up in the sisterly way and just say here, if you need or something.

It would be good a response.

And I do want to sort of call out what I'm going to say is the elephant in the room here.

But I guess for people listening it may be more difficult to observe.

But we've got two sisters with very different emotional affects, right, So We've got Gwen who doesn't show that much emotion, and then we have Carla, who does show her emotion more on her sleep if I put it that way, right, So, and I wonder if we're thinking about this family dynamic about you know, we don't really talk about staff emotions, aren't really you know, we don't really go there.

Would you say, Carla that you are different from the rest of the family in terms of the way that you show your emotions or are there other people in the family who also express their emotions.

I think I'm different.

So there's no one else in the immediate family that has their emotion more on their sleeve.

I don't think so.

Yeah, And I think this is a really important piece to what is happening here.

Not that there's anything wrong with one being more emotional and the other one not, or maybe more front facing emotional, so maybe one's emotions are more obvious than the others, but it can be a really important part to looking at why we keep missing each other.

We're not really understanding, we're not connecting.

I can I say something?

Yahweh.

I find that very interesting because people at work and my friends, they would describe me.

They would say, Gwen is definitely a crier.

She is very, very emotional.

We know every emotion she's feeling.

But then when it comes to family, it's like, no, my big sister face on and off I go kind of thing.

So that's interesting.

I found that very interesting.

How do you.

Color experience, Gwen?

Do you see the emotional Gwen that cries?

And yeah, you do, that's okay.

I have seen it over.

My life and I know she's like that, she's got a big art, a huge heart, but I can't get that from her.

Yeah yeah, the walls there all the time, and understandably, so there's big you know, years of experiences that have put it there.

But yeah, I know, I know she's.

Yeah, I know that she feels things.

Yeah.

So, Gwen, interestingly, you are aware.

This is great that you've got the awareness of Yeah.

I feel it's like I either feel this shutdown or right, I experience a shutdown of my emotions when I am dealing with family.

I didn't just till then, like, ah, literally one minute ago.

Yeah, okay, you found revelation.

Yeah okay.

Yeah, So because it's not that you are coming across as an unemotional person, but you are very contained and I understand that this is a uncomfortable and very vulnerable experience to be and so a lot of you know, there would be a lot of people who do come in with their guard up and in therapy and things like that absolutely completely make sense.

But I guess I just couldn't help.

But note this really big difference in affects between the two of you.

Yeah.

Yeah, and if the rest of the family is more like Gwen in the way that they interact with maybe with each other or even even with Carla.

If everybody sort of behaves the same way with Carla, and Carla is the one who's more emotionally open, I guess or raw in that way, it could make sense why there might be a feeling on Carla's side of that she's different or not wanted or like there's something wrong with being this way, or I don't know, there's something there around the difference.

And if the rest of the family is one way, Carla just I don't want to put words in your mouth.

What does any of that sort of resonate if I'm about your experience in the family and being emotional and how that's responded to.

Yeah, it's because I've got big feelings.

I think I was never met with understanding.

I think, particularly from parents, it was like, why do you have big feelings?

Go away or stop it now, or don't be like that.

Yeah, do you feel is that the sense you get from Gwen without Gwen saying and explicitly doing those things, But do you get left with that same feeling?

Yeah, it's a similar experience, but I feel it's for a different reason.

So it's not because your feelings are too big for her to handle or too annoying or too you know, it's not that she's not equipped to deal with your feelings.

That maybe that's more on a parent level that might have.

Been going on there.

But in this case, what do you understand is the reason?

It's I'm an adult and I've got to deal with it myself, and she's got plenty of other things on a plate that involves non adults and other responsibility.

So yeah, I think that's how I understand it.

And Gwen, what are your thoughts on that in terms of your reaction or response to Carlos feelings, emotions, reactions to things.

So sorry, So you think that I think that you're an adult and you need to deal with it.

Did I understand that?

Right?

In a nutshell?

Possibly it's a part of it.

Yeah, Yeah, you've kind of got a really full plate, so it's kind of Yeah, sometimes you're bandwidth.

You can't keep it, that's right, spinning sometimes it is, I know it.

Yeah, I understand that, do you?

Yeah?

And what do you take it?

So?

Personally, there's so much that I just let lie.

There's just sometimes that I'll try extra or that sounds really silly, but I'll just yeah, yeah, for a while, I've probably haven't really let you into anything that's been going on to avoid the rejection or the feeling of rejection.

And I said, I guess I take it personally.

I don't know.

Maybe I need to work more on that.

Do you expect a lot from me?

Because we get nothing from mum and you're trying to I'm the sister and the mum, so I'm it our family like.

That.

Please, you're definitely the mom.

Ah, Do I expect a lot?

I just expect something that's really nice and lovely.

If I expect too much, maybe just be witty to communicate more clearly about that.

But sometimes you said, you know, you know, I've got a lot on your plate, and I do, and admittedly I put that on my plate most of the time, so that's on me.

That's fine.

So you know, sometimes I just don't have anything more to give, and I expect you, as a sister to get that and just be there anyway without taking everything so personally that I've got to like, why about her emotions too?

Why can't you just be there be my sister?

Would you say you recognize when I am just there, when I am just trying to be your sister.

Do you recognize that?

Because I always feel that it's a person like it's very all about Carla.

It has to be about Carla.

Maybe there's a part of explaining it, or you know, in text or something, if I mentioned my feelings, it's because of perhaps I've learned.

You know, you don't say you did this and you did that, or when you don't do this.

I'm trying to say how I'm feeling.

It's not to say, don't tell me how you're feeling, because it's I really do want that.

But I think I'm just trying to express myself a certain way that lets you know what's happening for me.

It's it's not to put it on your plate.

I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to put more on your plate coming from Carla.

No, I don't think that's what I said.

If I you don't get the response that you want, have you thought maybe it's not about me.

Maybe she's just got a lot on a plate.

Maybe I should just be there as a sister.

Maybe I don't need to tell her all my shit right now?

I don't know, maybe we've got lunch.

I don't think I tell you stuff.

Does it feel like there's a lack of containment, Gwen?

Do you feel that there's a lack of containment around Carla's emotions and the way that they're expressed.

Yeah, sometimes, because.

I'm just trying to sort of get to what the crux of it is because it sounds so you know that Carla has big feelings.

Carlo has emotions more on her sleeve, so they are going to come across more.

Obviously.

Then there's that potential difficulty in respecting or understanding the boundary which can come across as the lack of containment, particularly when Carla you were saying, I actually have really good intentions and I am not trying to overstep anything or I am just trying to be there, but there's something that's getting misinterpreted along the way.

So there's an intention that's good, and then there's a boundary that's put in, and then my intention is to respect that boundary.

But then something like wires get crossed at this point somewhere there, and I'm wondering, is it but something to do with Gwen not wanting to deal with any more emotional burden and then feeling that whatever you're communicating feels like emotions are being put on to her in some way, whether that's what you actually think you're doing or not.

Carla, is that what it feels like when I'm trying to sort of figure out the process, just.

Feels like, no, you must understand how I I feel, this is how I feel, and you must agree with that kind of thing, the lack of better wayness?

Is that what you're kind of getting in?

Yeah, yeah, exactly, just simplifying if we were to simplify, what does it feel like?

So whatever Kyla is doing, which may completely be not at all what Carlo is trying to get across, but that's what message is getting interpreted.

Yeah, And what message Carlo are you trying to get across when you're saying how you feel?

Just that I could be and I'm just going to put things out there.

I want to be understood.

I don't want you to be upset with me.

I mean like, there's these things that kind of when we're trying to explain ourselves or give reasons as to why we're doing and saying things, often it can be out of fear of being misinterpreted or not being understood, or people not knowing where we're coming from, or thinking bad things about us.

I don't know if any of that is resonating.

I feel very misunderstood.

Actually, I'd love to be understood a bit more.

Yeah, I think.

The message that's getting through is just not a positive one that I'm trying for.

Gwen, would you say you also feel misunderstood by color?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah.

After this break, we're going to look at the homework that might help Gwen and Carla to start to see each other in a new light.

Back in a sec.

I'm going to jump ahead to homework just because it's really relevant.

But we're not finishing and going into homework yet, but I'm just going to take us to homework for a minute.

I think it would be really interesting for the two of you as homework between now and our next appointment to maybe write down things about yourselves that you really would like the other one to know about you, and it's not to have to say it next session.

This could be something that you email or send to each other to read, and some of it could be, you know, nice things, happy things, things I think about you, things I worry about your favorite memories with you, but it can also be things you might not know about because of our you know, sort of relationship being a bit up and down.

There's things I do want you to know about me that you might not know.

Yeah, or what it feels like when you do this thing that I don't really like, but I think we don't want the whole of a thing to be negative things that when you do this, I don't like when you do that.

But just picking a few important points that often come up between each of you, I wish you could understand that this is what I mean when I do that, or yeah, is that making sense?

Yeah, yeah, I'll get some dot points email to you to just sort of reiterate what the homework is.

But I do think there's Yeah, we've got two sisters who both feel really misunderstood.

So it could even be like the top ten things I think you don't understand about me, or that I don't feel that you understand about me, positive and negative things, things that about my life or you know, I know, Carlor, you mentioned earlier that you've sounds like you've made some changes or done some work on yourself that you don't believe Gwen is aware of or knows much about, and maybe that's really important to you for her to know.

And Gwen, you obviously reference that there's things going on in your life and it may or may not be that you have to share every single thing about what's going on, but there might be some of that stuff that it's like, you know, I do want my sister to know this about me, and maybe that would help us have a bit more understanding and just have a lay the groundwork for trying to create a different type of relationship between us.

Yeah, yeah, that sounds good.

Sorry, that was a bit of a detour into homework, but now we're back here, and now we're back into non homework land, just for a little bit longer.

Is this something that gets in the way when for you, Gwen, when you are wanting to see Carlor or wanting Carla to come and spend time with you and the kids, what stops you from reaching out to her and saying, Hey, do you want to come around, or do you want to come visit, or do you want to see my son come to a game?

Whatever it's you know, sometimes I'm like, you know, she invited us over for lunch.

That was great.

But then we had lunch and then I was like, okay, well I've got to go.

And then she was like, oh well I could have come too, and I was like, like it's as feels like it's never just enough, like if we organize something.

So I don't know.

The message you said prior to that visit was maybe you could come to training and we could get some dinner.

Well, I'm down, and I was so looking forward to something like that happening.

I just that's just where I was coming from.

I understand it wasn't what happened, but I was just really excited with the whole thing, with you being there and possibly seeing your son.

So how did it work out that we had lunch?

Then?

That's was the original So then it was like the decision was made to have lunch, okay, and that was it.

I just thought I'd I thought part of that time which was over.

That's right.

You thought there was no discussion.

Okay, maybe I need to think about it.

I don't recall that.

Lens.

We obviously think two very different things from that whole scenario.

Yeah, we do.

Are there assumptions being made without things being directly communicated.

Is that where you think they might be going wrong.

I think that's a big thing.

I'm very like that we're doing this, and then the assumption's like, oh, I thought we could do this or I thought we would do this, and I'm like, no one said that, and then she gets upset because it's not you know, and then everyone's like, why is she upset?

What's going on?

Because there's all this assumption that no one knows about.

That's how I feel, so Gwen.

For you, it feels confusing because you don't know where the other expectations came from.

Yeah, and I thought everything was fine.

I thought, oh, it's a lovely time.

That's right, see you again next time or whatever, and then she goes crying.

She leaves crying.

Every situation she willna she shouldn't say every that's not that's a bit extreme, but a lot of situations she will leave crying, and I'm just like, why is she crying?

I thought everything was fine, we had a nice time, So I never understand that.

I'm honest, and I'm confused.

And would that make you haa or reluctant to spend time with Carla?

If this is your experience of what happens, that she has expectations that don't get met and then she gets upset most of the time.

Like it.

Probably I haven't actually sat down and thought about that why, but yeah, that would be that would be part of a big part of it.

The reluctance or the apprehension or what Carla might be experiencing as the distance feeling not wanted and the distance there because we don't want to be saying that you don't want her there and you want the distance.

But if your experience is that most of the time when we meet up, Carla gets upset, it would make sense that you then subconsciously might not be that keen and then Carla feels that.

Yes, it's not like we'll have a good time.

We talk and laugh and then we're going, And that's cry.

Understand what I don't recall crying, Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?

No, I'm not.

You don't recall getting upset pretty much every time you relave.

The soccer upset, So I don't know that you know I'm upset, well, are you?

I thought I had got my wires crossed.

I thought we might go to soccer and get dinner after like the message set this is this is one time, okay, the other times think of the other times.

I don't really cry every time you say goodbye.

There's always crying.

I shouldn't say always.

That's exaggerating the time there's upset.

And I'm just like, I don't understand.

I thought we just everything was good.

So there's something about the endings, And Carla, I get that you're not that's not how you experience the endings.

No, but I mean, and there's no judge and jury here to say this is true.

This is not true.

I think the purpose of these conversations is, Okay, something is going on that when I'm leaving, Gwen thinks that I'm upset every time.

And if you, if you, Carlo, if you're like, well, I wasn't upset, then what is it about my behavior?

Is what is happening?

Is it that Gwen is seeing things or Gwen is very sensitive to my emotional changes, or there's something that Gwen sees at the end of those meetings or you know, catch ups where she is left feeling like you're upset?

Can you have any idea of what even if she's misinterpreting it, Like what It could be like if maybe there's something else going on and Gwen is interpreting it as you being upset.

They.

Was probably no, I just want to leave it.

Mhm.

Okay, if we go forward then future planning, how would you like for these things to end, you know, whether there's someone upset or not.

If let's say, if Carlor was upset, would it be okay for her to tell you and for you to discuss it or would you feel the resistance to that.

Gwen upset at like we go somewhere and then we leave and she's upset.

Yeah, something's upset her.

I'm just sort of saying for whatever reason, if she's like, oh, I thought we were going to do this together, and I'm a little bit see that's.

What she thinks.

But there's no conversation.

Yeah, it's all.

And now she's pretending like she has no idea what I'm talking about.

God, I'm not pretending.

Oh, you just don't have any idea.

I don't remember being upset out of sports field this year?

What about last year?

Do you remember last year?

Honest?

Honestly last year, just any year when we come and we see you and we think we have a good time, and then you leave you're crying because you think that we should be doing something else, or I think.

Okay, look, this isn't even if you can't get to a look, this isn't very uncommon.

This happens a lot where two people have completely different experiences of the same thing.

You don't have to get to a place where you're going to agree about what happened.

But the best way to test the theory is moving forward, like we want to do, you know what I mean, because there'll be better communication between the two of you in terms of okay, so next time you're all together, if Carla was to start crying at the end, Gwen, you could be like, and this is not about being defensive and blaming and pointing a finger, but rather like, what's going on?

This is what I was talking about.

Can you tell me what's happening right now?

What's going on for you?

Every you know, this is sort of that thing I was mentioning about when we leave that you get upset, right, So there could be a way to then communicate about that and not in a way of like this is what I mean, you know, or in the other way.

If you guys hang out a few times, and there's family things and none of them end with color and tears.

Then Carla, I mean it's sort of like, well, even if that's what used to happen, we don't have to agree on what did or didn't happen, but that's not what happens now.

So we're really trying to create a new relationship where you don't have this assumption that I'm going to be crying at the end of everything that we go to because look, I've shown you I don't.

Do you get what I mean?

Like, sometimes moving forward, we don't have to agree on what happened in the past, but we can create a different dialogue around what we want moving forward and what we'll do if a B or C happens.

So I guess the barrier to push through though it would be Gwen, there's got to be some giving chances or giving opportunity, not shutting down opportunities to hang out out of that fear that, oh is this going to be that she's going to be upset at the end.

Like, if that's your perspective coming in, that might be why Carla's feeling not wanted.

Yeah, Like it would make sense, And then Carla there's an awareness of oh, okay, they think I get upset at the end of things.

When I say they, Gwen, whoever things like get upset at the end of things.

Let's see Do I like, okay, let's go into it.

No, No, I wasn't all right?

Good?

Everyone's happy?

Yeah?

Or discovering that maybe I do get a bit emotional at the end of these things, and what is that about?

And how can I talk about that in a way that won't become something that makes Gwen not want to see me because of it.

Do we want to leave things here for today?

Yeah, I'm happy to do that.

So hopefully this has been a start and not just well we tried and that didn't work.

I'm hoping that the two of you are open to continuing the conversation.

Do you feel that there were some things today that you may not have known about before or didn't understand and that's what Carlo thought or felt that's new to you.

Some thanks and.

Color on your end?

How are you feeling about continuing in the conversation next session.

I'll be here, you know.

I think this is it.

You've got two sisters who are both here and sitting through this very uncomfortable situation and that tells me that you love each other, yeah, because you wouldn't do it otherwise, and that you're pushing out of a very deeply rooted family dynamic of we don't talk about things.

So you guys are actually breaking that cycle by doing this, which that's pretty cool and for your kids too, for the generation below.

Yeah, yeah, all right, guys, I really appreciate you sitting through it and trusting me and you know, agreeing to come back again and just keep this ball rolling.

But I hope that you both don't have too much on this afternoon.

Yeah.

It was interesting to see how the roles in the family dynamic for both Gwen and Carla are living long and strong after they've come out of childhood.

So, for example, we could see Gwen is still in this mother role where she is in some ways responding to Carla the way that Mum did when Carla's emotions were too big or too difficult or too much to understand.

And although it's happening for a different reason, this dynamic is playing out years after they've left the childhood home, and for Carla, the feeling of being misunderstood is perpetuated by her a difference in emotional intensity from the rest of the family.

This is a common experience for a lot of people long into their adult lives, where when we go back to our family home or when we go to the family get together, that we find ourselves falling into these roles and behaviors that don't feel like us, or that feel very young.

And it can be really frustrating to see ourselves go that way.

And then when we go back to our adult lives and homes and jobs, we think, what happened, what happened, how did I get back there?

What was that about?

How do I keep getting sucked in every time?

And this really is what's called the family gravitational pool.

There's a very strong pool from family systems to keep us in particular roles and with particular behaviors that keeps everything functioning as is the status quo.

That may not be a functional status quo, but it is the way that the family has adapted to survive.

The way I'm feeling about this session is distraught.

But hopeful.

Somehow, there's so much pain.

I just yeah, there's so much I never knew and never understood, and it wasn't for me, not trying, so it's so painful.

The way I'm feeling about the homework we've been given is quite good.

I think that'll be homework I'll be able to do easily.

I think Gwen might be feeling quite annoyed, and yeah, just really annoyed at me, at my truth and disappointed.

But yeah, there's been a misunderstandings.

I don't know some of the things she's talking about it, yeah, I don't.

I don't understand some of the things she said today.

So hopefully I can understand that in the future.

I hope after some time.

I hope in a week from now, we might be a little bit friendlier and she might not be so angry at me.

Maybe we can both go away and think and sleep on things and just see them in a different light.

How I'm feeling about this session, I think it was good.

I'm okay.

Yeah, it was good to get some stuff off my chest.

I guess the homework is great.

It's a really good idea, and I'm really keen to write down what I think about things that she may not know about.

Man, I think Carla is quite upset, but I think she'll be okay.

Like as they've said, she wears her heart on a sleeve and big emotions.

I hope there is a bit more understanding.

I would like to see more accountability and honesty, and I think that's how we can move forward, so that would be good.

I really applaud Gwen and Carla for showing up to this process today.

Family estrangement is more common than you might know, and extremely painful for everyone involved, and it's easy, especially when you know it's going to be hard, to avoid taking on the enormous work of trying to repair.

I'm really looking forward to seeing them next week and hope that the week's homework can help illuminate a little more about each of them to each other.

The second part of Gwen and Carla's session comes out in a few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now.

Follow the link in the show notes to listen.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Niama Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilson.

The executive producer is Nama Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, Editing and sound designed by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice motivated minds.

If you'd like to apply to be on the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.