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Wayne's attitude is so positive and he's always so driven towards whatever goal it is that he's working towards, and his attitude is just really optimistic.

I had to sort of say to him, like, we don't have to be toxically positive about this, you know, like this is a negative thing and it sucks, and it's okay for it to suck, and we can just be in that for a little bit.

Welcome to this is why we fight real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples, and families.

This series has been designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of other people who are grappling with the challenges in their relationships because I firmly believe that we can learn so much from each other.

Today your meeting Beth and Wayne.

Beth and Wayne are busy professionals in their thirties with one small child.

Beth and Wayne have both had some big life moments.

Recently.

Beth had an adult diagnosis of ADHD and Wayne has been dealing with severe chronic pain.

Somewhere in the midst of it all, they lost their ability to communicate easily with each other and to really understand where each other is coming from.

Here's Session one with Beth and Wayne.

Beth, Wayne, it's so lovely to see you guys here today.

Wayne.

Maybe it's interesting to start with you because this is your first experience of therapy ever.

Yeah, I'm happy to start off.

The first thing that spreaks to mind just balancing I guess, work, life, and our little one and time, so and that that whole intermingling of all of those four factors.

Working a job, obviously, making sure that you know our little one is surviving, not just surviving, but thriving our own time, whether it's personal time or whether it's time to invest in in our relationship, you know, me investing time with my loved ones, so yes, my wife Beth, but also my family members, having a social calendar if possible, you know that that enjoyment of life, and then of course just just generally health as well, so it's all of that sort of those are all intermingled, I think, to create the challenge and then trying to navigate through that.

It's like a corn field sometimes, but it's a great challenge, and then it has its ups.

And downs and where can you give you an example of, yeah, where it gets challenging, like where you find it's not working well.

So recently, I and by recently, probably about six or so months ago, I was battling with a health condition which was debilitating.

It involved my spine region, which you know, you wake up one morning or sorry, you go to sleep the night before and you're fine, but then you wake up one morning and you can't move properly, and then that exacerbates, exacerbates, and the condition itself, you know, changes and molds into something else and then next thing you know, you know, Bess has to do instead of fifty percent of the work, a lot more and there's a level of guilt that comes into that I'm not doing enough the challenge.

The challenges increase.

Sometimes what is being said around the house changes as well.

Your fuses sort of get a little bit shorter sometimes and expectations change.

So that was a recent challenge.

We overcame that.

It took a little while initially, like most things, but.

Well, I think it's still an ongoing thing for you as well.

Yeah, yeah, I'm young in the mind, but the body reminds me that I'm creaking, and you know, winters are difficult.

But anyway, Yeah, so I think I think it has that has certainly been a recent challenge that we had to work through.

And in trying to work through that together, was that fairly easy or were there some bumps in the road, like where was trying to even navigate?

Like who's doing what?

And we're all stressed and we all have our own stuff, but now there's this injury that we've got to work around, and yeah, how did it go between the two of you?

I think generally we make a pretty good team, but we are a very fifty to fifty partnership, and so I think when one of us goes down, it can be a little bit tricky.

I think I found it really hard seeing Wayne so down and genuinely like quite depressed because you just couldn't do the things he wanted to do.

He couldn't play with our son, he couldn't lift things.

He had days where he could barely move.

It was really challenging to see him struggling so much.

And I think also Wayne.

Is very good at sort of pinpointing where I need support and has been a really really big support for me throughout the years.

There's been very few times where he's been the one that's gone down, and so I think that was really challenging for us, because firstly, Wayne didn't quite know how to cope with being looked after, Yeah, but I also didn't quite know how to transition into that person of looking after him and also all the other things that needed to still operate.

So yeah, I think it was It was hard, and I think we went through some pretty tough moments where Wayne's fuse is generally like he has all the patients in the world, he's one of the most patient people I know, but during that time, because he was just in so much pain and so agitated, we did sort of button heads a little bit more than we usually would, I think, and struggled to sort of push through that, and I think it was a bit of a catalyst, you know, for us wanting to come together and have those conversations so that you know, this isn't going to be the first all last time that something like this happens, so sort of being able to have ways to work through that in a healthy way.

I think it was really.

Important everything that Bet said, and my personal sort of feeling was it was infuriating.

It was infuriating to be limited.

It was infuriating to have to like, you know, you set the bar up here and then you get a drop, and you've got to be looked after to a degree, and you know, seeing Beth do things that I normally do, I don't know there was an element of like, actually, that's that's what I do.

So but look, it was it was an insight into Bess is amazing in terms of her strengths and I'm amazing into my strengths.

But we both have our weaknesses and we're very would be the first to acknowledge, you know, and that's what we work best at.

We know our strengths, we know our weaknesses, and that our ying and our yang like matches perfectly.

It's something that our friends are lovely enough to, you know, to say about us, is that we work as a great partnership.

So yeah, So I think it was a really good insight into when one of us went down.

Wow, it was incredible to see.

The whole thing got a bit.

Wow.

Yeah, the dynamic change, and our little one actually rose to the flour as well, not just not just assisting Bear for myself and doing things, but there was an emotional intelligence that he developed, some of his medical terminology increased.

I think that was really good for it two and a half year old, to be able to say savical ridiculopathy.

It was pretty good.

But no, look, it was the dynamic shifted, but it was such a from from a challenging situation.

It was so good to see that we were able to come through that cornfield that I referred to and come out the other end and go, yeah, we went through that.

It was amazing.

It sucked, but so many great silver linings to it.

I think I think though coming back like, yes we did, we came out of it.

But I think there were a lot of things that sort of came up that time where I realized that I think Wayne could really benefit from having a conversation with someone that wasn't me, and also, yeah, that things were really difficult and we probably did need to eventually go back to that and have some conversations because at the time, or even you know, quite recently, it was probably a bit too raw and a bit hard to sort of go back on, and it was almost that thing of like, Okay, we made it.

Out, like let's just keep going, but it was really tricky.

And I think it kind of leads in as well to when I say that Wayne was Wayne's done a lot for me, and he's very tuned in to me.

I also got a diagnosis of ADHD not long before that, and so we'd worked really hard to try and you know, work with that in the best way that we could as a couple.

And I think that that was particularly challenging for our relationship before I got the diagnosis, because there were a lot of things that I couldn't explain to Wayne or I couldn't unpack my brain to make it make sense to him.

And we finally sort of got to a stage where yeah, I was able to articulate that a little bit more to him, and I was in regular therapy and really working hard on that, and then when his health stuff came up, it kind of, yeah, it was a real spanner in the works because.

I think we got very.

Comfortable doing things a certain way, and it, yeah, definitely sort of threw things out of whack.

Yeah, yeah, so, I mean interesting, So we've got the ADHD diagnosis not long before the injury then happens.

So were you getting some support for around strategies to manage your ADHD while or throughout Wayne's struggle with his help?

Yeah, so I see a psychologist regularly, but I think probably should have seen her more frequently during.

That time behindsight.

But yeah, I think I actually think my mental health probably took a pretty big hit around that time.

And I also felt that I didn't want to burden Wayne with more things or to make him feel any more guilty than he already felt by talking about how it was impacting me.

So yeah, it was really tricky because I think both of us rely very heavily on the other person for that emotional support.

I don't think either of us.

And you obviously speak for yourself, babe, but I think either of us we would consider each other, the closest person that we speak to about everything.

Yeah.

Yeah, we are each other's number one support.

So when something like this happened again, it was really sort of shocking to the system because neither of us knew who to reach out to outside of each other, because yeah, I don't think we wanted to put any more burden onto the other person.

And also, you know, sharing stuff like this, there's an element of being vulnerable, and not often do people choose the vulnerable path.

Well, I was wondering where, Beth, you mentioned before that you I don't know whether it's just hoped or even had asked or wanted Wayne to have been getting some support during that time.

Did you actually ask for him for that or what happened there?

Yeah, No, I did, on a couple of occasions recommend that he reach out because I could see it was really impacting his mental health.

Then, as I said, like, I think you were genuinely quite depressed during that time, and.

I think, yeah, Wayne, it's.

Not that Wayne's had been reluctant to try therapy.

I think it was just that step when there was so many things going on that it was a difficult thing and I wasn't going to push or you know, make you do something, because that obviously was not going to be the right way to do it.

But in fact, actually I think maybe looking at it in hindsight is probably better for you as a person anyway, because when you were in the thick of it, I think it was just too overwhelming.

Yeah, and I had, like, you know, my peripheral vision to even entertain that sort of stuff.

It was a bit difficult because I was just in the thick of it.

Was surviving.

Yeah, it was.

If anyone's had nerve pain, the pain is quite literally shocking, like it just sent shocks through So I couldn't have a thought, you know, during the day, even if I was daydreaming, that daydream would be so short.

I'd be having a conversation or going through a sentence and I'd get a shock my nervous system.

So so yeah, it was tough to entertain anything perferally.

But it was also the there was so many medical, like directly medically related things to his condition that we had to then deal with, like seeing specialists, physios, GPS, all of that.

That took up so much of our time.

He couldn't drive for a period of time, you know, we had, Yeah, we had a child in daycare and it was just it was a lot to manage.

So I think I think at the time it was probably too much for you to then add another thing to that.

But yes, I definitely did recommend it because I could see that he was really struggling, and then in turn that was sort of impacting me as well.

Well, I think that's the interesting piece here.

Got the two of you who are each other's biggest supports, and there's that little sort of codependencing happening there where I'm also trying to protect you from my pain, and you know when that's happening from both sides, you're both struggling in the situation, but you're both kind of not wanting to let on how bad it might be to protect the other one.

Right, pretty accurate.

Yeah, I think we both have really good insight into each other's emotions and levels.

Yeah, that stems from Beth just being a really great EmPATH.

And you know something that that, yeah, we spoke about early on in our lives and in our in our dating sort of experience, that just came out very easily, and she knows exactly when I'm chi can spot it.

She can look at me and go.

Most of the time before you know, yeah, so she can spot that.

And I'm really grateful and she has.

She's made me like a better person one thousand fold.

And yeah, and you know, we're both strengths and weaknesses, strength and weaknesses, as we say it one hundred times a day.

But I you know, I think you asked the question Sarah about you know, Beth, do you think Wayne probably needed a bit of a third party sort of assistance sort of thing.

I have always seen myself as someone who can I'm pretty black and white.

There's a logic to things most of the time.

And because of my early family life, the emotional intelligence that particularly my mum and my sister, who were these really strong, amazing women that you know, built this emotional intelligence in me from very early on.

And I've gone, okay, well, I've got the black and the white, I've got the like I put it all together, and you know what, if things don't work out, it's water for ducks back and you move forward and it's meant to happen.

And that's my view on pretty much most things, and too, you know, and sometimes that can be frustrating because it's like, how can you not see.

Frustrating for anyone else?

For me and other people.

How could how could you not be more worried by this?

How could you not?

You know?

But but for me, it's kind of like, well, this is happening.

There's got to be and then there's there's got to be one of reason for it to an end to it, and we'll be right, you know, and it'll be okay.

But I can, even as I'm saying these words, I can see how frustrating that can be, you know.

To bed No, it's it's actually something that I love about you.

I think that it's a very impressive thing that you Most things don't phase you much.

But I think this was.

Not water for Ducks back you were you weren't okay, and I I think you were trying really hard to just have the same approach that you usually would, which has worked for you for the majority of your life, but it didn't.

It didn't work this time, and you were really having a hard time because I think all of those areas of your life were impacted.

It wasn't just that you were injured and your own pain, it was that you couldn't be present as a parent and a husband and a son and all of the things that you really place a lot of value on.

You couldn't do any of the things that gave you joy.

You couldn't play sport, you couldn't you know, like and even now you're still it's you're hesitant to go back and do those things.

I can see because it's really had an impact on you.

So I think it was the one thing that sort of broke that that.

Policy that you had.

And you and I remember you saying to me as well in the thick of it, like, this is not I can't just brush this off.

Because it was scary.

Yeah, you were you were scared and you were worried.

It wasn't a finger, it wasn't a toe, like this is spine.

Yeah.

Yeah, so yeah it was scary, but it certainly showed us a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah, the experience and once we got out of the experience as well.

Yeah, and in terms of like the frustration on your part, Beth, like where did you.

Well, yeah, where did.

You find yourself in terms of being able to make sure we knew that this isn't just something to brush off.

Did he get there himself or did you have to kind of push and be like, hey, babe, like this isn't okay.

Yeah.

No, he didn't get there himself because I think his in his mind he was thinking, I'm just going to approach this in the same way that I've approached things always.

So yeah, I did.

I reminded him a lot, like it's okay to not be okay, like this is not a typical experience, you know, this is rough.

And yeah, like I mean there were times where.

There was some really serious surgeries potentially on the table and looking at really long recovery times and all those kind of things.

So it was not just like a standard, you know, medical problem.

It was could have potentially impacted his life long term and still may like it's it's still not.

Yes, he's he's definitely a lot better, But yeah, I did.

I did remind him a lot, probably annoyingly so that it was okay that it Yeah, it was tough in that time.

I think my frustration was sometimes Wayne struggles, I think, to just be okay with the fact that it's negative and it's not you know, like Wayne's Wayne's attitude is so positive and he's always so driven towards whatever goal it is that he's working towards, and his attitude is just really optimistic that I had to sort of say to him, like, we don't have to be toxically positive about this, you know, like this is a negative thing and it sucks, and it's okay for it to suck, and we can just be in that for a little bit, and yeah, just being realistic that this is just not fun and it's making everything really hard, but we can acknowledge that and we can try to sort of push through that.

I really struggle with toxic positivity.

I think it's just like a feeve of mine that I think I've learnt through my own experiences and through therapy and stuff that actually acknowledging the problem and facing it head on is usually the thing that works best for me.

When we come back, I'm going to dig deeper into why it's so important for Wayne to always try to see the positive and why that makes Beth feel misunderstood.

Stay with us.

So, does it feel at times that Wayne, whether Wayne minimizes unintentionally, does it feel minimizing or when Wayne is trying to get to the positive, does it feel like he doesn't really see my struggle?

Or what I'm dealing with if you are in a not great place.

Sometimes that was probably maybe something that would happen earlier in our relationship, probably before we like before I got the ADHD diagnosis.

Because I think there were so many.

Facets of my life that it was impacting and I couldn't put my finger on what was going on, and so there would be a lot of things, probably overwhelmingly so for Wayne, there were a lot of.

Things that I was a bit of a debbie.

Down her about or that I was struggling with, and I would come to him with, you know, I just don't know what to do with this, or I'm really struggling with this.

And I think his approach was, you know, it'll be okay, just like you know it'll be fine.

But I feel like now that he understands sort of how I work.

A little bit better.

That that happens less frequently.

Now.

I think you're probably more in June with what I need from you.

I guess, yeah, things make a bit more sense.

Yeah, you fucking put it, Yeah, plainly for both of us.

Yeah, a minute.

I think early days in our relationship, you know, before, we're different.

We're different with and that's one of the beautiful things about us is that we're different with different things.

But when it comes to you know, cleanliness for example, or organization of things, that's in my area like that, I'm very that's just me.

Like if you take something, you put it back from where you got it from, because it's just a logical thing to do.

Why would you do anything else?

Or you know, you you leave a place, you know, when you when you leave a place, you leave it like you like you got there or better that.

You know, like that's just the logic.

But then that's your logic, that's my logic.

That's my logic anyway.

So yeah, but with Beth early days in our relationship, that sort of stuff like they're not big things, they're not huge things, but it was little things and.

Lit someone like you become big things.

Yeah, you know, and you want to nip those things in the bard, which is kind of like a theme of I guess, well we're here really going to come full circle, but yes, it's it was about going hang on, why is this happening?

Again and again and again, and then once Beth got that diagnosis of ADHD and I started to read more into it, learn more about it.

Took my own time, like to research it, but then also with the coupled with bets verbals or conversations with Beth about what it was about and what she was experiencing.

Because the other thing that you know, correct me if I'm wrong, But the other thing I learned is that everyone experiences it differently and there's a spectrum what best was experiencing.

Then when she told me about it, I was like, oh, okay, well this is why it's this is why these things are happening, or this is why this is just not a priority for you because you just don't get that dopamine hit it just the laundry takes four to five business days to get put away because because because you don't get any pleasure or dopamine like that, that doesn't you don't go, oh my god, I love this, and.

That doesn't have to make it an excuse, right, so it doesn't mean like, okay, well we just have to accept it all.

But can make things feel less frustrating once we understand why they're happening.

But then also you can kind.

Of tailor strategies to support each other that are actually going to resonate other than trying to apply your framework yes to bess, which is a completely different way of.

Operating, and it meshed.

You're right, we landed in this middle area where just meshed and the puzzle all of a sudden made a lot more sense.

The puzzle pieces went just jumped everywhere, you know, it was like, oh, a happens because of A plus B or whatever.

You you know, like there's a reason for it.

So that certainly mapped out a lot of things for me.

And I think you mentioned the word frustrations, like, yes, of course, it's very normal curve frustrations in a relationship.

And how do you show sorry, how do you show your frustration?

Because you are, as we're seeing it as, that's say, a very positive minded person.

How when you're frustrated, what does that look like?

And how do you show it?

It's a great question, Sarah.

He's not very good at showing.

Yeah, he struggles to he doesn't.

You don't like being frustrated.

You know.

It's funny that you mentioned that, because I was going to say other people would know that best how to answer that question.

So it's interesting that you you answer that because yeah, I wouldn't know how to answer it.

How do I show frustration.

I do a lot of internalizing.

Yeah, And to be very honest with you and to any of you know, my friends and family, they know me as as a pretty cool, calm, collected stable like here's the here's the frequency.

You know, it's just a single line, and that's just what I am.

So I don't get frustrated often.

You know.

When I get frustrated, I get frustrated for like silly little things, and they're like, so I internalized, and I go, I hang on, this is this is not major.

I just thought this out and.

I think, though that brings up frustrating.

Yeah.

Yeah, but that also brings up because I One of the beautiful things about eighty h D's that I'm constantly in tune with everyone's emotions, sometimes more than they realize themselves.

And I can see when Wayne is frustrated but is trying not to make it.

Or put that on me.

But I've had it.

There's been so many conversations that we've had, and.

This is sort of probably.

A big one with us, is that I can see something's happened that's frustrated him, and I will say to him, like, something's wrong, tell me what's wrong.

I can tell that you're not one hundred percent okay, and he will He'll be like, no, no, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, And I can still feel the energy in the room, like I know, yeah, but then I will I will keep asking, and then he gets more and more frustrated by me asking, and then eventually it like explodes into this and Wayne frustrated is him just going like, nothing's wrong, I'm fine.

And then eventually it'll come out and he'll be like after me, really like pulling it out of him.

It'll come out and he'll say, you know, I just wanted the kitchen to be clean, or and Wayne Way's classic phrase, is it really irked me?

I'm not frustrated, Oh wow, I'm justoked.

Okay.

So even admitting to being frustrated uncomfortable, yes, yeah, I can't even I have to choose a slightly less sounding word.

That was a classic argument of ours that we constantly like whenever he does something now that frustrates now.

Yeah, I mean, look, even in that as a as an objective, I think that's the fact that we've we've because at the time Beth was just like, Okay, just tell me that you're frustrated a way, it's it's okay to use that work use the f so so yeah, I think I don't.

Yeah, I probably do have any issue with going.

Yeah, I'm frustrated, probably because I don't like to be frustrated, probably because I'm like, well, it's happened, it's in the past.

This milk is spill.

We move on, we move, we move forward.

And you know, but but you don't like to sit in the I don't like.

To sit in You don't like it at all, I think, and Beth picked that out early.

Whereas I have no problem sitting in that if I can find.

A resolution, I need to fix it, and so, and.

Then he gets frustrated by that because I'm sitting there and I'm like, there's a problem.

I need to address it otherwise it's going to drive me crazy.

Whereas his approach is like, I just want to move on from this.

I don't want to talk about it.

I just want to keep doing what I'm doing.

So it's a bit of avoidance happening there, right.

So it's a bit of an avoidance of the discomfort of having to sit in things.

And then Beth I guess that makes you overfunction.

So you were like doing all of the work trying to pull teeth from Wayne, going hey, what's wrong, that's that's wrong?

Yeah, yeah, and trying really hard not to frustrate him in that process.

But I think, yeah, I think that this.

Is where we're very disconnected in a way.

Is that, like we have very different approaches to conflict.

Yeah, And even when things escalate to that point where he's like, Okay, now I'm frustrated, my immediate thing is I'm very emotional in conflict and Wayne is very calm, almost too calm, and so I might be in tears and he's like just standing there like what do I do with this?

You know, like this is too much, too much emotion.

So yeah, I think that's really our big disconnect, and it all sort of intertwines into each other because I think my emotional regulation is obviously something that I am working really hard on with regards to the ADHD and also that sort of rejection sensitivity.

So if Wayne is giving me feedback on something, trying not to let it completely break my world apart.

Yeah, because he is the person I cared the most about, Like his opinion matters more than anyone.

So if he's giving me even constructive criticism or feedback, I really really struggle.

With that because it means so much.

Yeah, and then he he just does that make you wayne feel apprehensive to give feedback or do you worry about Beth's response?

And sometimes maybe monitor whether you give feedback or not.

There's a scale, there's a scale.

There's a definite scale, you know.

I again, I've got these two wonderful female leads in my life, my mum my sister, and therefore, you know, female health was talked about often, I mean tune with female health, and I know that there are certain times of the month where in that preceding week I'm not going to be as frustrating or I'm going to try and go around things a little bit more gently, and so yeah, so sometimes I'm like, Okay, well, this is not the time, this is not the time to deliver this piece of whether it's feedback, constructive, whatever, because you know, my intention can be pure, but the perception intention vis a perception, you know.

So yeah, I think more often than not we have a great environment.

And by more often, I mean like ninety nine point nine percent of the time Honestly, we can say stuff.

We are vulnerable with each other where it's it's a confident, great environment, but it's a scale.

At the same time, if I'm going to see that she's looking emotionally mentally drained, I'm not going to be like, hey, babe, could you just little insert menual task to do you know, or something like that, or so, yeah, I do pick my moments.

To answer your question, but I think you probably hold it back then well yeah, I mean yeah again, to answer your question.

I'm not afraid necessarily.

I'm not afraid of her, rather afraid of upsetting her.

You just don't want to disrupt the status quo as well.

I think that's your thing, Like if you're if you're sitting there and you're like, overall, things are pretty good right now, so I'm not going to throw, you know, a grenade into that.

I think that's.

Generally it is go with the flow for the most part.

But I think my my frustration around that is that I want to know when it happens, even if it feels a bit upsetting to me.

And I've said that to Wayne, like there might be times, there might be times where I am upset because you've told me something.

It doesn't mean that you know the whole world's going to fall apart or then I love you.

Any less or anything like that.

It's that I just need to feel those emotions and be upset about that.

But it shouldn't stop him from giving me that feedback or talking to me about it.

Yeah.

So, I mean I think the avoidance of any negative emotion is not only your own so waiting for you your own frustration or negative emotions, but actually even inflicting or feeling responsible for negative emotions in Beth as well.

So that's well put.

Yeah, yeah, and often you know I don't I listen.

I listen a lot, as in like when we talk, I do a lot of listening, and I don't You're right, I think I don't like to inflict is a good way to say it, any sort of negativity.

So in that there's also an over responsibility for Beth's emotional state, right, because the word inflict is like it's your faults about her.

You know, I care about her emotions.

I don't want to affect the status quo.

And if it's good, if things going good, why am I going to pull that pin on the grenade and throw it.

You know.

But I think I think also maybe you struggle in that moment to see like the bigger picture because and I think maybe that's something that I am good at, is that you know, like I know, for example, if I give you feedback and say, hey, Wayne, like I really just need you to do X y Z, even if you're a bit you know, you get your back up a bit or whatever about it.

I know that overall it's not the end of the world.

Like it's fine, it's okay, and I know that we're solid and it's fine.

I think you just really feel like you're doing a horrible thing if you you just you really don't like to cause pain in other people.

I don't like to fight, yeah, yeah, and I don't want to start.

Yeah, but it does in turn actually causes Yeah.

Well, Beth, And when I said it, I was like, well, that's a goodie, because this has been something that has come up.

It's like, maybe, you know, Wayne, why didn't you say that in the moment.

Yeah, I strongly about something.

Why didn't you say it in the moment?

Why did you just go, uh, it's all right, sweep it under the rug.

Yeah, And then tell me a week, a month X amount later.

And it's because what we've talked about in the last couple of minutes is that in the moment, I don't want to upset that.

You know, things are for the most part going well.

Why do I need to do this now and spend the next however long?

Do you have a like story in your mind or yet?

About if I disrupt it?

Now?

So?

Like, yes, things are going good.

I don't want to disrupt that, But is there a like you know, Beth will get upset or Beth will start crying, or we'll have a fight.

Or the afternoon will be ruined?

Like where do you go?

How far does it go in your mind?

Yep?

Good question.

Uh, honestly I think it's yeah, I don't I don't know how far it goes.

I don't know.

Is it like and then she'll be upset with me?

And then she won't want to be with me anymore?

Fantastified?

I can confidently say it's It doesn't always overthink overthink.

I'm going to think.

I think a lot about little things, and it's not always it's not always a negative overthought, but I just play out scenarios and It's kind of like the flowchat of like which scenario would I prefer best here?

And again, more often than not, I will pick the scenario that has a positive outcome that we're all sort of.

Happy you perceived to be.

Or the least amount of friction in that particular moment, the least amount of tension.

And Wayne is in every aspect of his life, the mediator.

He's the one that wants to keep the peace, doesn't like the conflict.

All of his friends would describe him that way, like it is in his family.

He plays that role like I think he doesn't lean comfortably into conflict at all.

Yeah, And if I can interject, there is context, there is context because you know, twelve So I was in an accident.

I was in a motorbike accident, and this was thirteen years ago, and I nearly died.

I could easily not be in this in this conversation right now.

I could easily not be living this life right now.

I could be six feet under And that was thirteen years ago.

So the last thirteen years, I think there has been that shift.

There's been that change of me going you know what we are this small yeah, you know me and even the little things that I sort of go weighing, like maybe that laundry doesn't have to be put away right now.

It's such a small issue in this gigantic universe that we're in.

There are such bigger issues, problems, worries, things to be dealing with.

And again it's that layer of it's that lens of like I could not be here right now, so let's just let's just enjoy every moment because I could not be here tomorrow, you know as well.

Yes, that's how I got into experiences in life, and.

I think that's important to raise, right and it does again with everything though, it's how do we balance that with also, but there are silly little worries that everybody has every day that are also we don't want to minimize and validate or dismiss them.

But also yes, in the scheme of things, they aren't as life and death as some things.

Yeah, so it's difficult.

It sounds like you're sort of more on one side, yeah, and Beth a little bit more on the other.

Yeah.

And I mean I.

Fully acknowledged Wayne's perspective and I think it's an amazing perspective to have.

And I'm obviously incredibly grateful that.

He is here with me today.

But I think, yeah, the other difference is that I didn't live that experience either, and I wasn't even present in your life during that time, so I don't think I got to see the impact of that firsthand.

I also think that in a moment when we are frustrated or in some sort of conflict, it's very difficult for me to step back and go, oh, yeah, Wayne's perspective is this, and to be able to sort of have the ability to do that genuinely, and I'll, you know, selfishly admit that.

I think, yeah, I think I find.

It hard to see that perspective because I also think I think my side of things is this is a pretty small thing.

Just put it out there and we'll deal with it, and then we can move on.

Then we can you know, then we.

Can take your side of things and we can just keep on going.

I think you do.

I wanted to talk about that, you know, like overthinking it to the point of like this is going to ruin the day, and this is going to do all of that.

He's actually made.

That comment a couple of times where I've brought something up, say we're like lying in bed of a morning one of the few times that we'll get where we don't have, you know, a child jumping on us, and I will bring something up that I've been meaning to talk about for ages, and it might result in some sort of friction.

And there have been a couple of times where he's like, oh, I just I don't want to ruin the whole day with this conversation.

So it's definitely something that crosses.

His mind that he has this sort of Yeah, he.

Almost catastrophizes it to the point of like, this is just this is just going to ruin everything for the whole day.

When my perspective is like, we'll just have this little, uncomfortable conversation and then we're good.

You know.

So in reality, when you do get to raise concerned Beth and then the conversation has had some sort of resolution and move on, does the whole day get ruined because this idea of the whole day?

Like does that actually play out in real life or has it ever?

I think, going back to the overthinking thing, I think if that was using best example, if that was to happen in the morning, yeah, I would probably be thinking about it during the day.

So it does ruin the day for you.

It doesn't ruin Beth's day.

It ruins your day.

I don't think in saying that now as well, I don't think the whole Yes, I will admit the day does not get rid of because I remember having these conversations and then of course, you know, we're hugging and doing our feet and the day is fine and the day is not ruined.

However, though you're saying what you said earlier was important, that it does stick with you, do play it out of it, and you know, and.

Then maybe if Beth said Beth, Beth has said something like, you know, this really affects me, I'll probably be daydreaming during the day and go, how many times have I done that?

Am I going to do that again?

Wait?

When I did that and she didn't say anything, was she really affected by it?

And then I just was loudly dark about it, and Beth was actually, you know, it was in her head.

So yeah, I think those overthoughts, that those that sort of overthinking occurs in my mind.

You said that before, No, well, this is the beauty of this, this is the moment, this is the nugger.

But yeah, it doesn't ruin the day.

It doesn't.

And what I can learn is that it is.

And what I have learned, what hopefully you've been scene occurring more frequently, is that we are spending more time in those moments, like sitting in those moments and putting everything aside and going, you know what, let's talk about this, let's not this out and discuss it so that we can move forward.

And whether or not at over you know, the overthinking is my thing to sort of sort out and deal with.

But but it makes sense as to why you are so avoidant of the conflict, because for some people they avoid conflict because of the other person's reaction.

But actually what we're hearing here is like, yes, there's the guilt about not wanting to upset Beth.

But if what I'm learning is that Beth doesn't get upset all day, that that actually it's it's you, not that you're upset all day.

But in some ways you've been to stabilize a little bit.

There's an anxious thinking process that starts happening, and it sounds like you go into a bit of guilt, a bit of like oh no, like how many times have I done?

That?

Is a bit of sort of anxious.

Yeah, the thoughts, percollection.

The irony of that, sobabe is that when you don't give me feedback, that's what I'm doing.

Yeah, okay, so you're almost.

Almost inflicting that on me by not talking to me, which is the funny thing, because I can tell that something is not one hundred percent right with you that you're not talking to me about.

So I'm then circulating in my head going, oh my god, what have I done wrong?

You know, and trying to pull that out.

Of you in a monologue.

Yeah.

Yeah, so actually we're fairly similar.

On that front.

But I didn't know that that was something that happened and why maybe that's why you said or you would say, yeah, this is going to ruin the morning, or this is going to ruin the day, because it was how you were feeling.

It's a very personal conversation, you see, between my mind and my other mind, I just talk to each other both sides of the shoulder.

But yeah, I mean, there's so much, there's so much that that goes on, and you know, these last have a long minutes of us talking to get to this point.

I probably haven't well, I mean, as you all know, I haven't experienced this to be able to get to this point in this sort of an environment.

So there's a lot of stuff I've mentioned internalized and that's just how I've dealt with life because it has been internalized.

And it's also like the controls, the control V like that formula has worked for me for X amount of years.

It served me.

Well, I'm so grateful.

I do practice gratitude about every little moment contextually my life.

So it's like, why why change unless someone like Beth, my friends and family, the people that I love that's certainly Beth, you know, goes, they like what's to go?

And to not get black and white about this, though, is that we don't need to change this this system that has been working for you.

Maybe we just don't apply it to all.

You know what I mean.

It's like if I applied that, Yeah, like maybe seventy percent of my life that strategy works really well, But there's a thirty percent of situations where actually maybe I need to operate a little bit differently.

So I think it's just trying to get out of the all or nothing thinking on that one.

Yeah, I agree, I've been I've been lucky enough that you know, Beth has like I said, Beth has made me better and has actually had moments breakthrough moments like these in the past where she goes, we'll see they like the last forty minutes was really worthwhile because I was able to understand so much more about you.

And if I didn't go through that, I would not have known and I wouldn't have been able to realize, Oh that moment, Yes, that is not a black and white moment.

That was a gray call at what you want, Like that was an emotion to sit in that Sorry, there was a moment to sit in the emotions, to sit in the discussion because there's the greater good that's going to come out of it and that situation won't happen again.

So yeah, I think I've progressed.

I think I've learned over the course of our nine or so years it's been which is just wild.

But yeah, so you're right, it's not always black and white.

And how do we work with also the overthinking stuff that happens after because it's one thing to say, like, Okay, you know, I want to try and and not avoid these moments because I don't want my day ruined with my overthinking right, which is I'm simplifying it, but it's kind of like do I want to bring this up?

I don't want better to get upset, but also then I also don't want to be thinking about this all day.

That's essentially what's going on on a sort of subconscious level.

What do you need you know, with the overthinking?

So it sounds like there's this fear that I've upset or I've guilt, that I've done wrong things.

Is there a need for reassuring us from Beth?

Like what what is it?

That's sort of yeah, triggering the overthinking or is it more to shame about yourself?

It's actually it's it's how can I be better to be very honest with you?

So as Beth knows, Beth knows me as that's like I like my sport and I like my analogies, and more often than not I deal with life with sport analogies.

So to us, yeah, it's it's it's you know, that point is done.

I play with a bit of tennis socially, So that point is done, hit the routine and start again.

Play the next point, better, play the next life situation.

Better with Beth, play the next moment that you reach that point way and be a bit more emotional, be a bit more sensitive, be a bit be a bit better.

That's that's how which is it?

Which is a really lovely thought, But I'm not expecting better, Like I don't you, I have no issue or like there's nothing about you that I want.

You to change or be better.

It's more I just need you to feel a little bit more comfortable with being in those moments because it's not I actually don't think that there's any major thing that we need to change or be better at.

And you do have this, you have this inner monologue because I hear it come out a lot that you know, all be better or do better or that wasn't okay, Like you're quite harsh on yourself with the language that you use, and I just I, yeah, I think what Sarah is saying with like that, do you need that reassurance from me to just say, like, this is not a big deal.

I just want to.

Talk about it, you know, or or how can I help you to feel better during the day.

So that you're not going down?

Because I actually feel like that's quite negative.

Yeah, put a lot of pressure on yourself and if you don't.

If you don't, then the next time you're not better.

Are you then being really hard on yourself again?

You know what has helped in the past, It's it's Beth saying Wayne, this doesn't have to be perfect.

Yeah, okay, because I do see that is a priority in your life.

I do seek like the cleanest of clean slates.

Yeah, I seek perfection.

I seek I seek the most polished product to be delivered.

I don't do things half asked, so you know, to answer your question, what can Beth do or what has Beth done?

Beth has just gone babe.

And I'm a physical touch person, so you know, I remember moments where you'll just give me a hug, put a hand on my shoulder, whatever the case may be, and be like physical touch plus reassuring comment.

If it doesn't have to be perfect, we're going to be fine.

I love you, beautiful.

You've got your instructions then, because.

In moments of conflict, this is what I've told you that I need.

I know, but that's what I mean, you know, That's what I mean.

I need like and that's you were saying, like, how can That's what I try.

And that's what I'm saying.

I need to be better, Like I missed one part of that formula.

Next time, I've got to try and get that right.

But I've already gone straight into say look at you, going straight to like you, what do I need to do better?

Yeah?

Okay, is that what I did?

Okay?

Well, all right anyway, And.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm laughing because there are moments where we'll be in conflict, and I think Wayne, as you said, he's very black and white.

I live my life in the gray.

I am gray, like nothing.

Logic is something that I use sparingly, honestly, like I think out.

Of the box.

I am very creative, quick to change.

Yeah, like I love, I'm spontaneous.

I don't enjoy things like maths that there's only one answer, you know.

And so it's funny to me because yeah, I don't need you to be better.

I just think it's funny that when we argue or when we're in conflict, he will do this thing where he'll automatically just be like, logically.

Okay, how do I fix this problem?

Whereas whereas I'm.

There like I'm like, just give me a hug and tell me that everything's okay.

I think that's the classic male brain problem.

And whereas I'm just like, I just need to cry and I'm not.

You know, best will be the first person in my friend, my family and my friends will be the first person say I'm not your classic male, I'm not a no.

But in those yeah, and I think that exactly.

Yeah, which, which maybe that's where I find That's where i have trouble with.

It's because I'm not your normal classic male.

I am quite a feminine male person in.

You do you tap into your feminine energy energy question?

Yeah, yeah, a lot.

And maybe that's where I'm struggling as well.

Maybe.

Well, it sounds like for you, when the emotional stuff becomes uncomfortable, you go into problem solve.

Right, So when if you struggle seeing Beth upset distress, you immediately go into problem solve because I think that's more comfortable for you and it feels there feels more agency or power to change things rather than sitting in this uncomfortable like, oh god, you know, my wife isn't happy and she's not doing well and it's really hard to see her like that.

And then even in yourself, if we think about the overthinking.

So Beth raised something that she's not happy with you about.

You have the conversation, it goes okay, whatever, and then your day is ruined.

I'm just putting in the quotation.

Your day is sort of ruined because you then go into this overthinking like rumination spiral about how to be better, because I think that actually means you don't have to sit in your emotion I don't have to sit in my emotions if I'm busy thinking about my plan of how to become perfect next time, it takes you out of being emotionally present.

So I think that this happens within yourself, but also with Beth, where you're saying there, when you go into problem solving instead of just being emotionally present with me, I feel unseen.

So Beth feels unseen or not connected with and you are avoiding her emotion by trying to fix the problem.

And I think you're putting those words out.

Yeah.

Has given me a point of realization that even because I love I love Beth.

Yes, but that is also a way to love Beth is to be in that moment and to work that out and to go you know what, the formula can vary.

Sometimes you can deviate.

Sit in that moment, whether it's uncomfortable.

Our love will not change, In fact, it will probably yeah, blossom, yeah, exactly, get more energized, if anything.

And and I think instead of me going, you know what, I'm not going to deal with this because I don't want to ruin it blah blah blah and this and therefore I'll be better next time.

Maybe that pressure of what's not just on me, No, in trying to be better, it's actually on me to just sit in the moment, on us and then and then that is also a way of being better and loving.

Yeah, but again, like you don't.

I don't need you to be better.

You are, like we are.

We are having this conversation as a means to ensure that we continue with a good thing.

So I don't need better.

I actually just need you to be honest and present and in the moment.

And not beat yourself.

Up like I didn't realize how much of that you were doing, because I know what that feels like as well, to feel like you're beating yourself up over things.

But you know, I'm not sorry.

You know who knows what?

You know that you have made me feel so much more confident because of things that you have done and said and given, you know, to me that I may not have had before.

So I think that element of even talking to you, Sarah, you know, and in this sort of triumvirate here, like it's a vulnerability that I'm not afraid of being with around Beth or really like most people.

But I think it gives us an element of like we level up every time we're vulnerable with each other.

It's never it's never a negative thing.

We never go down.

Yeah, yeah, we we keep building the tetris blocks of our relationship.

When we come back, it's time to assign Beth and Wayne some homework stay with us.

So if I kind of segue us into homework, right like what Wayne, Wayne, he loves homework, He loves the homework, doesn't want the herd will be reminding us.

To do the homework, but he'll.

Wait, we'll have the homework completed tonight.

Wait, we have the homework completed the very last minute, and I'll be stressing.

About eleven the deadline.

Let's do it.

Okay.

So there's a bit of type A but also not.

Oh yeah, pressure like adrenaline Russias, which is really interesting.

Isn't it.

Yeah?

Okay, so homework, well i'll start with you.

I don't know, and this homework, I guess again.

I'm going to preface this as a lot of the time homework is really just like suggestions or like experiments.

I look at this as more like an experiment of like, let's go back into our lives and change one little thing, or even just pay attention to one certain thing over the next week, and then see what we observe about it.

See if I do something slightly different, do I get a different outcome.

Just we're kind of seeing what happens.

And then when you come back and we see each other again, we will go over it in terms of like, oh, what happened, something good, something bad, nothing changed, or Sarah, I didn't even do it, we didn't have time, or I found myself really.

Resistant to it and I just didn't want to do it.

Anything is okay?

So this isn't a like school, Oh you didn't hand in your assignment kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, like it'll be you know what, Sarah, every time I tried to do it, I just I got really anxious, or I found it annoying, and I didn't want all of it is part of this work, because there will be a psychological block if you're not able to do this thing.

So I guess I'm sort of prefacing that.

But I think for you, Wayne, I want to see you saying things in the moment so and picking on as little things as possible.

So, Beth, this may be a bit of an annoyance for you.

This week, but it's so this is all in the name of science and understanding your relationship.

But yeah, so for you because I think Wayne, there's this real avoidance of bringing up anything negative, even identifying anything as negative.

And we're not trying to turn you into a negative person.

This is not the point of this, but there will be.

You know, Beth is saying, I feel like you don't raise things you know in the moment.

I also feel.

That you avoid bringing up things that you think might be contentious or you know, that sort of stuff, and that you actually, Beth feel closer to Wayne actually when he does bring things up that you want to hear.

So let's just start you small, because we're not going to go to level one hundred on day one, so you're not going to pick the thing that bothers you the most.

Ever, we're probably not going to go.

There, but the littler things that feel like the stakes are not that high, and starting to practice saying those in the moment, and it might feel like you're just criticizing Bethel Day.

That's why this is an experiment.

This is not what you're going to do forever.

This is just building your ability to be able to I guess we're trying to lessen the sensitivity to bringing things up because if you know, if I do something a hundred times, it's not going to feel like So it doesn't mean that forever you're going to be pointing out every single little thing to Beth.

But for now, we're just trying to make it become less of a thing and more of a just default, like, oh, when something bothers me, I just raise it.

That's where we're trying to get to.

And maybe the other part two of your homework is just noticing when you feel frustrated, even low and we can whatever word irked, there's a thousand other words you could use for it.

But when those levels arise, when things are getting you know, a bit there, and the frustrate, what does it feel like, like, how do I know I'm frustrated in my body?

So I'm wanting you to, yeah, really sort of be the next time you notice yourself being a little bit annoyed or stressed or frustrated.

How do I know that there's a cognitive thought, but what's the physiological thing going on that's telling me I'm frustrated?

So just noting that and note that you know people, not on your phone or wherever you want to put it, just.

To observe that.

Okay, that's it for your homemade two little things.

Bring up things in the moment as small as possible, and just observing what's going on in my body when.

Or any umbrellaed level.

That's Sarah, Okay, I want to add one one more thing to your homework.

This is a small wealth.

When I say it's a small one, I want next appointment, I want you to be bringing up something that's wrong with Beth, something that's wrong with something that that that you would like to see change, or something that Beth does or in a relationship that bothers you.

And I feel like that is purposely giving you that because I think that is a difficult thing for you and you don't have to have the answer now you're a whole basically to think about it.

Yeah, but I mean, how do you how do you argue with perfection?

Exactly right?

It's like, is this to blow up?

I get it.

I get what you're leading to, and it's we obviously understand it's not critical.

It's actually something that is impacting me, or something I would love for you to get a bit better at responding to me about in a different way, or just doesn't matter what it is.

I look forward to it.

I'm appreciate.

So I don't want to overload you there, but I just feel like that was an important one be I think because there's some overfunctioning going on on your site, so where Wayne is either in his avoidance or potentially it's sometimes not there yet in a wayness you're doing the overfunctioning.

So I wonder what it would look like for you, Like do you have I don't know if you can think of specific examples of ways that you find that you overfunction for him, like where you step in or you telling him, or yeah, like what are your kind of default go tos that you might be able to think of that you.

Do definitely trying to put words to his emotions, like trying to help him find what he's feeling.

Yeah, I think that's probably the main one.

I do probably overcompensate for you in some things as well, like when we talk about that sort of codependency, seeing like I will maybe jump in on things for him that he's capable of doing himself as well.

So like even organizational stuff, I'll probably jump in on it too early instead of giving him the chance to like action something, because I get panicky or anxious about things being done quickly.

But yeah, I think from an emotional perspective, probably more just trying to help him get to that emotional realization quicker than maybe what he is ready to or giving him the space to sort of get there on his own.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So if your role or goal this week is to avoid maybe even just observe my overfunctioning, because I think if we're like, Okay, go off into your lives now for the next week, you may realize all the little times that you go to like say something or step in or do something for him.

And again we're not talking about from now on, you never help Wayne with anything, and you never support him, and trying to know, but just noticing like, oh, I actually do that a lot, or I didn't realize how much I kind of step in, And so we want you to be observing that this week.

That's what you want to be noticing about yourself?

Is how often does that come up?

Yeah?

And are there am I able to pull back and stop myself?

What is the drive behind me stepping in?

Because it's often like an anxious drive to do something?

So yeah, why am I stepping in?

Is it actually necessary?

And what's driving it?

Like?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do think the time thing maybe we can talk about next week, you know, about wanting things to be done at a time, and that's yeah, so whether or not that's something we can chat.

About next time.

Yeah, we can put that.

As a next time to be explored.

So what is that about urgency to get things done?

Yeah?

Giving wayne ideas here.

Not but even either even that could be on either side.

Yeah, who needs to work on that.

Thing?

Okay?

Does that feel all right?

So?

Yeah, observing the overfunctioning, looking at why I get that urge?

What happens when I don't step in?

So it's all just a sort of experiment.

Yep, sounds good, beautiful yeah, and I hope it can feel you know, yes, while we are talking about things that are challenging or things that are not working the way we like one hundred percent that it doesn't feel like this negative and critical experience, but rather one that's useful, and the point of it is in order for us to understand each other better in order to make changes that are going to make us work more smoothly, to get constructive.

Yeah, machine a little bit better.

Yeah beautiful, My day is.

Not, and we'll leave it then.

Yes, thanks so much.

Guys, Thank you, Sarah, thank you.

Yeah, I'm feeling really good about the session.

I think it was really nice to sort of see Wayne's perspective on his first interaction with therapy.

It was really interesting to get an insight into his thought processes and things that I'd never sort of known before because I'd like to think we do communicate pretty well, so it was interesting to see that there were some things that came up that I had no yeah, no concept of, or hadn't even thought about.

So it was really good to get that inside.

I think the homework that we've gotten I think will be really hopefully helpful.

It'll be interesting to see what Wayne comes back.

With next week.

I feel like we sort of focused a lot on him, so it'll be interesting to see what next week is like and how we sort of function with those parameters within our week.

This week, I.

Think I personally will probably.

Have to catch myself a little bit with my.

Work and not sort of overstep, But it'll be a good sort of science experiment.

I think I'm going to enjoy seeing how it plays out.

But yeah, I hope that we're able to sort of come to a good conclusion next week and that we've Yeah, we've taken the advice, and we've done our homework and we have some interesting scientific results to.

Come back to.

I must say, even having a little moment to reflect there, I am feeling really good about that session.

Was it was cathartic.

It was great to put those internal thoughts out on you know, a proverbial table, so to speak, and learn things, not just from that experience, but learn things about birth, about myself, and a good overall feeling.

I must say, I hope by the next time we come in as a couple, we are definitely three things where one we're more in tune about some of the things that We've talked about relating to self and to other, so really, you know, that's homework relating to herself, my homework related myself, but also how interacts with each other.

I hope that two we are stronger in ourselves and stronger in our own thoughts.

And three, I hope that our relationship overall is more confident, and whether that is in decision making, things that we say, things that we do with each other, with the people around us, I just hope that it builds confidence.

It's a lot to ask in a week.

Maybe it's not, I don't know, but it's a hope and I'm sure we'll be able to get there.

Codependency often gets a bad rap, particularly these days.

I think a lot of people have a negative perception about being codependent and it's something that they don't want to be at all.

But really codependence is very common, and I would say most relationships would have a level of codependency in them.

It doesn't necessarily mean that it's an unhealthy relationship.

So if we look at Wayne and Beth, for example, we can see a lot of love there, a lot of respect, and a lot of real understanding of each other's needs.

Where we can see some codependence there is, particularly in the overfunctioning on beth side and in the minimizing and minimizing of his needs and prioritizing of Beth's needs in Wayne.

The main things that.

Make up a codependent relationship will be struggling to set boundaries, struggling to identify your own emotional needs, prioritizing the needs of others above yourself, struggling to hold firm on your reality when being challenged, and finding it difficult to raise or sit in negative emotions.

So we can see that not all of those are present here, but there are a couple of little threads that are wound into bethan Wayne's relationship that have a little codependent twinge to them.

So I think that helping them by setting this homework to see where they've got a little codependent thing going on and how does it actually impact our relationship.

Is it helpful that.

I overfunction or does it make me feel like I'm the one carrying everything?

Or does it help me feel more in control?

Or you know, like, what is it about overfunctioning that maybe manages my anxiety?

And is that something that I need to work on rather than just you know stepping in when Wayne may not actually need me to step in, And for example, for Wayne, potentially, what would happen if I did raise my need and it was responded to positively?

Would that mean that my self esteem might be able to improve?

This idea that other people's needs aren't more important than mine, they are equally as important as mine, and being able to lessen that fear of raising anything perceived as negative in this relationship.

The second part of Beth and Wayne's session comes out in a few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now.

Follow the link in the show notes to listen.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilson.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill.

Sound design and music by Tom Lyon, Editing and sound designed by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice motivated minds.

If you'd like to apply to be on the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.