[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

[SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in June, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization.

[SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, everyone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is Marny, and I'm excited today to bring back John Lee, who is a wonderful and prolific author, psychologist who wrote the book growing yourself back up amongst many other books.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we had a wonderful conversation not too long ago that I shared with you all and promised to bring John back for more.

[SPEAKER_03]: John, thank you for agreeing to come back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: My privilege.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun last time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's have some fun and hopefully say something useful.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll help some folks.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I will tell you that the feedback that I got was that it resonated so much with people who are dealing with the trail because the level of reactivity and activation is so high and the triggers are often so constant and nonstop, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: They don't go away for so long that I think so many couples do live in a bit of a regress state and it causes a lot of problems.

[SPEAKER_03]: So when I have told quite a few of my clients that I was bringing you back a lot of them had questions and they said, can you ask this and can you ask that?

[SPEAKER_03]: But before we jump in for those who missed part one, I was wondering if you can just give a quick refresher on what regression is and why specifically do you feel that it would happen so often for couples that are dealing with betrayal?

[SPEAKER_01]: Emotional regression is not a neurosis, not a psychosis, it's part of the human condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: It can never be once and finally cured, but it can be caught and repaired.

[SPEAKER_01]: Regression is an unconscious and unintentional return to our history.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that history could be ten years ago, twenty years ago, adolescence, childhood or early childhood.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to emphasize again, regression is an unintentional unconscious return to our history.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not past life regression.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people get that confused.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's one minute.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling like a clear headed level-minded adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the next minute, I want my blankie and my bottle.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it happens all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And partly it happens because we're stressed as a people, we're exhausted, we don't feel well.

[SPEAKER_01]: The economy is weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you throw infidelity and betrayal on that fire and we burn down marriages, families and buildings.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that pretty much encapsulates it very well.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you talked about this last time, but again, if you can give just a quick refresher to help people understand how they would notice or be aware of the fact that they are in a regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because you've talked a lot about the importance of not stopping regression from happening, but of catching it as fast as you possibly can.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my book, going yourself back up, I have a section called The Red Flags of Regression.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give you two or three of them, and we might talk about more as we go, but I'm going to get to the prominent ones.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the big red flags that you are going into a regress state is what I call stories in your mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: So your husband says he'll call you at ten o'clock when he gets into his tail.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's ten fifteen.

[SPEAKER_01]: He still hadn't called.

[SPEAKER_01]: If your tire exhausted, not feeling well stressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, by ten twenty, you're telling yourself what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're making up these stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when we're in a regress state, there are always worst-case stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: He got into an accident, his plane fell out of the air, or he's with his secretary.

[SPEAKER_01]: So stories in your mind, when that happens, you do not want to talk to somebody about whatever conflict you're experiencing, because you're not in your prefrontal lobe, you're in your [SPEAKER_01]: limbic rain where all you can do is fight, fly, or freeze.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't think logically, rationally.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you come out of the regression and return to the prefrontal low, the neocortex?

[SPEAKER_01]: Another red flag is time gets distorted when you're in a regress state.

[SPEAKER_01]: Time will either elongate or shorten, but it doesn't feel like real time.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're in a grocery store line and you're tired and exhausted and running all over the place and the person in front of you says, I'm sorry, I gotta go back and get milk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're in your prefrontal lobe and you're not requests and you've had a good day, you will say things like, oh, go on, absolutely, take your time.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you exhausted and stress, then that two minutes that it's going to take feels like Tim.

[SPEAKER_01]: So time gets compressed or elongated is a big sign.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the third one of the best red flags is your body.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think about having a talk with your adolescent son and your stomach has not.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think about having a conversation with your husband about something.

[SPEAKER_01]: stressful and important, and your mouth is dry, or your throat gets so dry, you can't hardly speak.

[SPEAKER_01]: Most people have their bodily awareness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mine has always been my stomach.

[SPEAKER_01]: So identifying that part of your body that lets you know, this is not a good time to have this conversation.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, John, I don't know if anyone's ever mentioned this or talked to you about this, but as I'm listening, shame shows up in the body in a very similar way as you're describing with regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, those same bodily sensations that type throat, the stomach and nods, so I'm wondering, let's say somebody is listening to this podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if they are, then they actually are quite interested in the topic of shame because there is so much shame associated with infidelity and sex addiction and betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: And also obviously a lot of regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if they're learning about both, how would they know how to distinguish between what's going on for them in their body?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's going to be hard to explain in a short amount of time.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're feeling shame at all, you are in a regress state.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you're feeling guilt, you're not necessarily in a regress state.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're feeling shame and you're shaming yourself, now you're back in your childhood history, where that was done to you so much, so many times that you automatically kick it in yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, everybody knows this, but I'll say it for the one or two people, maybe who don't know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Shame is the feeling that I have done something so intolerably wrong and I am defective and I am broken.

[SPEAKER_01]: All those ways of describing shame says, I'm in a request state, because only in a request state, what I think that I'm defective.

[SPEAKER_01]: only in a regress state, what I think I'm broken.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in my adult state, I know that I'm guilty for betraying my marriage, but I'm not going to not only shame myself, I'm not going to let anybody else shame me, either.

[SPEAKER_01]: Unless I'm in a regress state, and then you can shame me all day long, because I'm so doing it to myself, pile on.

[SPEAKER_03]: That was such an incredible response.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you because that's what I thought.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I've been thinking about our conversation and how you talked so much about how important it is to catch it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the telltale signs is the physical body sensations.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I've been doing a deep dive into shame.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I just actually wrote a whole, twelve-week curriculum about shame and building sham resilience.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the big things was looking at where shame shows up in the body.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's said it's the same place where we feel shame in our body.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I imagine it's the exact same thing with regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's in the same part of the body where we process pain.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I just find that so fascinating.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm glad that we just had that little recap because I wanted everybody to have a common language before we took the conversation even further.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you could get a husband and wife or two lovers on the same page, you can reduce conflict and confrontation by fifty percent.

[SPEAKER_01]: just by one or both, which is what men, my ex wife did a lot, is honey, I'm too regressed right now to have this conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me call somebody, let me take a walk, room of soap back up, and one time she came in from an Allen on meeting, and I said, I was the Allen on meeting.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said, it was really good, but very upsetting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I said, you want to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said, not right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to grow myself back up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I want to share with you what happened with the meeting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she went there and she called one of her elegant friends and came back and now our later.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now she was an adult and we had a conversation about what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we were able to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so by seeing that and having others report it is when both people are really clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: A, both regress, B, they learn how to catch it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I say the conflict will be either fifty percent less or fifty percent shorter than when you're trying to have the same conversation from the limbic.

[SPEAKER_03]: All right, I'm thinking if you and your ex-wife had had that conversation, if she had said what was so upsetting to her at the meeting and she didn't ask for the break and I'm going to go call a friend from Ellen on.

[SPEAKER_03]: You guys could have ended up maybe in a, you know, three hour conversation, right, and ending up with two people slamming doors, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I say that three hour conversation, let's say took thirty minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but again, it's because now she's processing what happened with her prefrontal lobe and new cortex.

[SPEAKER_01]: When she's after meeting and just coming home, she's still in the limbic brain, but she knew it now.

[SPEAKER_01]: ten, fifteen years before, I would take in what she said, well, I don't want to talk about it now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then I said, no, we're going to talk about it now.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, we got to talk about it now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then off the regressive races.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that was because you were in a regressive state as soon as you heard her say, no, I don't want to talk about this now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and you know, something I think is really important to acknowledge here is that regression, like you said, is an unconscious process.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is not something that somebody is intending to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think with betrayal, there's so much trauma and there is so much anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: and fear and just such strong emotions.

[SPEAKER_03]: If somebody, if that's the betraying partner, goes into a regression, which I think happens all the time, I think that can anger the partner even more.

[SPEAKER_03]: And almost feel like now you are becoming this way.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're moving into this immature pattern of reacting or responding.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now you're abandoning me and betraying me again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, where did my husband go?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's turned into a little boy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where did my wife go?

[SPEAKER_01]: She's turning to talking then like a little girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, the two things that every human being on the planet wants more than anything else is to be seen and heard.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I'm regressing, I'm not going to see you or hear you.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you're regressing, you're not going to see it or hear me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And not being seen and heard is one of the most massive triggers from childhood that creeps right into adult is you still don't see me.

[SPEAKER_01]: You still don't hear me.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not listening to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: say, PMLD, a wonderful repair patient out of the metals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Say, it's a hundred percent, my responsibility to be an adult, a hundred percent of the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that was great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, good for you and PL.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't quite do things yet, but I'll work on it.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's a really great point.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I studied a lot with Pia.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: God bless her and me she rest in peace.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I remember that she did talk about it being her responsibility and yet how can it be when you're in a regrets state.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I'm so fortunate to say this growing yourself back up is mandatory reading at the metals.

[SPEAKER_01]: It should be people who told me for years that you go in and please book is on the nightstand that growing itself back up is there too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for just that reason, I got to be an adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, give me a tool to try to stay in my adult as much as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the book is focused on is how can I pack things tall, reason like an adult instead of a hurt kid?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, because it is our responsibility as an adult to show up in our relationships as an adult, but you're right, when there's this unconscious, very primitive process happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, now the piece that we didn't talk about, but maybe we can interject it here.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the ways that you reduce regression is by consciously regressing.

[SPEAKER_01]: see there's what I call trans regression and then there's conscious regression.

[SPEAKER_01]: Trans regression is I don't know I'm in it until I'm out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not even know that I have my memory out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a trance.

[SPEAKER_01]: We live like it's a trance.

[SPEAKER_01]: Conscious regression is I know that when people are late for meetings or dates, I lose it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to consciously with somebody or a journal or a therapist or sponsor.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to consciously focus on that and see where that comes from and see what repressed feelings are in me or around that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm actually using one of my examples.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my teens, twenties and thirties, if somebody was fifteen minute late for a lunch date.

[SPEAKER_01]: By the time they got there, my body was there, but emotionally I was gone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And very often would say things that was so inappropriate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, glad you finally showed up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you could buy your watch and some weird stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I, this was before I wrote to both, but I was coming on this information.

[SPEAKER_01]: research and I thought, why is that trick or me every time?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I did consciously and took it back to six years old and I did it two or three times.

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been triggered about somebody being liked in thirty, thirty-five years.

[SPEAKER_03]: So this is a really incredible teaching opportunity, I think, because I think it's important that people understand that regression can actually be a gift [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, the last chapter in the book is called The Grace and Regression.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw that there's an innate desire to heal ourselves from our past traumas and wounds.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so God or the environment or the universe is all in agreement to some degree with that healing process.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so conscious regression can heal a lot of stuff from our past.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that this is such a huge thing for people to understand because I think a lot of times human beings think, well, this is just something that I do when I can't change it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: But you can.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you can.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want everyone to hear that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can.

[SPEAKER_03]: Take that in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my marriage and she and I are still best friends to this day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And part of that is because we spent the majority of our marriage as adults.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, by the time I married her, I had quite a few hours of work on regression and then I wrote a book and she edited it, but now every relationship before that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't give Mary till I was forty six, but every relationship before that was characterized by lots of regression on both our parts.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was just remembering I was in a relationship for years, but I was much younger.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that we got together when I was about twenty.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we moved in really young.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we lived together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember getting so upset with him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I took a bowl of cereal.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was eating corn flakes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember throwing the bowl of corn flakes at the wall.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now I can't tell you what he said or what happened.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I remember feeling a lot of shame after was over and thinking [SPEAKER_03]: How could I have possibly done that?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm not a violent person.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a destructive person.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's not something that happens very often in my life at all.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that's probably why I remember this so well, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I wasn't consciously thinking, I'm going to now take this bowl of corn flakes and I'm going to throw it at the wall.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, you see, that's something I want to keep repeating to everybody here.

[SPEAKER_01]: The moment that happened, you went to your limbic brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: fight, fight, or freeze.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's your only three options from the limbic brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you're in your prefrontal load and your neocortex, you go, I'm very angry, but I'm going to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to throw liberal, which is a fight reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll just say that regress people rage and react adults express anger appropriately and respond.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know we talked about that a bit in the last call, but can you say a little bit more about that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when I'm in my adult brain, I'm going to respond to what you're saying, doing, not saying, not doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when I'm in my triggered brain, my limbic brain, [SPEAKER_01]: Then I'm going to fight what you're saying in some ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to shut down or fly away and whatever I say is going to be a reactionary statement rather than a response.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people even in psychology will use the words responded react as if they mean the same thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they just don't.

[SPEAKER_01]: So adults respond, regress people react.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that makes so much sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking about how, you know, we have a really high divorce rate in our country, possibly in the world, but I'm less familiar with what's going on outside of the United States.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of people think that the reason for that is in fidelity.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking that the reason is probably more around the fact that you have so many traumatized people who have not done the work and are running around in-regressed states trying to have an adult relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing that I point out in the book, and in my lectures, our society is a regressive society.

[SPEAKER_01]: As a culture, we're closer to being adolescents than adults.

[SPEAKER_01]: Robert why the poet and friend of mine and the men's work, he wrote a book, a very important book, the same time that I was writing, wrote himself back up.

[SPEAKER_01]: His book is called The Siddling Society.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the premise of that book is that we're all sort of acting alike siblings and brothers and sisters and there's no adults running the home.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's certainly true in this society that we live in.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you've got external regressive stuff out there and you got it in the house, your chances for being an adult or meeting an adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's fairly low.

[SPEAKER_01]: We perpetuate adolescence in this culture, you know, tomorrow morning when I go get on the airplane, you'll see men and women dressing and behaving much like they were in their teenage years, you know, where's the adults?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where's the adults?

[SPEAKER_03]: I agree so much with that question.

[SPEAKER_03]: If I think about it, I think about it a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think about it a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: All right, we'll come back to couples that are trying to heal from betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: So when regression shows up for these couples, how do you think John that it impacts rebuilding trust in the relationship and making progress in healing the relationship?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, some people going to disagree with what I'm about to say here, but I've been doing this a long time, and I've been disagreed with many, many times.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the worst things that happens is that couples keep bringing up the past, bringing it up, bringing it up, bringing it up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see couples who have gone through this with a couple right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: The requirement for me to work with them is the woman can tell me a thousand times what he did in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when the couple is in the office, you only get to tell him what is happening now and how you feel about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: People will not start processing or let me retrace that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Think they're processing.

[SPEAKER_01]: When really, it's just recapitulation, recapitulation, recapitulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it just, it goes on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a couple that I counseled over the years.

[SPEAKER_01]: He had in the fair, forty years ago, and she still talks about it in therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what I got heard to do, finally, many years ago, was to stop talking to him about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, one of the things that it's hard to get, the brain and the body does not run on calendar or clock time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what happened thirty years ago, it's like the poet Wallace Steven said, the past isn't dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not even the past that you can see a movie about an adultery couple and you're gonna be flooded.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see that a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like flooded.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the key here is now not to talk to this husband while you're flooded.

[SPEAKER_03]: So how could you stay authentic in your relationship and have a big reaction?

[SPEAKER_03]: So like you said, let's have a perfect example sitting together in a movie theater.

[SPEAKER_03]: There has been a history of betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's still working through, you know, trying to heal.

[SPEAKER_03]: It hasn't, you know, maybe it's been a couple of years, but maybe a year, whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's infinity in the film.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the partner is impacted.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are you suggesting, you don't say anything, or are you suggesting that you could say after it's over, or even in there, I want to leave the theater, like how do you think that should be addressed?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, one of the things that I tell folks all the time, you can tell anybody how you feel, but you don't need to expect a response for doing so.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I could lean over and say to my girlfriend or what, well, I'm being triggered so much right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when the movie's over, I want to tell you what I was feeling or thinking now, if it's the couple that has experienced the betrayer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then if I'm not regressed, I'm going to say after that film, some stuff came up for me and I'm going to call my therapist and make an appointment.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to rehash this thing with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, you are.

[SPEAKER_01]: We shouldn't have gone to see that movie.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now you're going to talk to me because it's coming up for me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So reaction reaction reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing about this thing called energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: If my energy is up here as an adult, you either have to match me or pull mine down or go away.

[SPEAKER_01]: But most of the time, if the person is keeping their adult energy level, I think the person will match you.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, or they'll say, you know what, you're just too adult for me right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna go take a walk and see if I can be an adult too.

[SPEAKER_01]: William Faulkner said that sometimes the truth depends on a walk around the way.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sometimes I just have to take a break.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just to make sure that I understand.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you use the word rehash.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to make sure, are you suggesting that the couple has already done some of that, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's been a discovery of either a one time betrayal or years worth many times, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the couple comes in.

[SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that you're not suggesting that there's not a discussion in you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scott to be discussed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in most all situations it has, I had a session this week.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her husband multiple, multiple infidelity.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I have this other couple who this guy had for two years.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he has worked his butt off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've really become a different person.

[SPEAKER_01]: But her timetable is still stuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I say, you talked to me about it as much as you want, but please stop.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've talked to him about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've told him probably, fifteen, twenty, thirty conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we got to get you both in the press or you're just going to drown in the past.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's such a fragile line because the partners often feel like they didn't ask for this thing to happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: This thing happened and they sort of inherited it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now they have issues with trust and intimacy and all of the things that come with being in a relationship.

[SPEAKER_03]: And to be asked not to talk about it, I think would be really [SPEAKER_03]: painful.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think what I'd like to do is to ask my listeners today to just if you can take a deep breath and understand that John's actually talking about wanting to keep you from drowning, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: I heard that just a moment ago that you're saying, if you keep doing this same thing over and over again, you're not going to be able to survive it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly well said.

[SPEAKER_01]: Very well said.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, John, I've told partners in the past that there are times when I think that the inability to get past it and for it to be so many years later and it's still occupying so much energy and so much pain to consider the possibility that leaving might be a better option.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've counseled several couples where it's [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have to sit, you think I ought to leave them, which I had never asked that question.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I wouldn't answer it even if I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say, yeah, you know, you've done your best.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've tried to repair it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing about it is that once trust is broke, it takes a long, long time to get it back.

[SPEAKER_01]: But reminding the breaker over and over and over, I still don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a path that's going to lead to getting it back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you may have to tell your therapist or your best friend over and over and over.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still don't trust him or her.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to tell them that, see, the power of language that goes in was hard to come back out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have one client who tells her husband daily.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what we know, [SPEAKER_01]: about behavior is okay, then fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm never going to be trusted again, and you've been telling me for two years, you don't trust me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Especially men, but sometimes when I do this fine, I'll just act out again because what's the point?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I say, you told your husband, you don't trust him.

[SPEAKER_01]: You tell your husband that you're going to work on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: but you don't keep telling them every week.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust you.

[SPEAKER_03]: However, I think it's important that when the person who is trying to gain back the trust that they destroyed, when that person is violating agreements, relapsing, slipping, doing things that are pausing, then you're not supposed to trust them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, you know, I've said this for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust anybody until they've earned it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I meet somebody, I go up there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's both of us work on seeing if we trust worthy by our actions of behaviors, not just our words, but it's hard, you know, for women.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a sexist thing that some people are going to think is sexist.

[SPEAKER_01]: A woman, not all women, but most women.

[SPEAKER_01]: The primary need is safety.

[SPEAKER_01]: Safety, safety, safety.

[SPEAKER_01]: and infidelity, oceanal infidelity, sexual infidelity, leaves them unsafe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Men need safety too, but not as primary and again, I'm generalizing, some men need it more than women.

[SPEAKER_01]: But generally, the way I phrase it is very often silly, but you could walk downtown Atlanta at eight o'clock at night and not feel safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could walk downtown Atlanta at midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: and feel more safe than you would feel at still seven or eight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now that's a generalization, but what I'm getting at is money as a male for safety in that kind of way is not as heightened as most females need.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a basic requirement that the female feel safe and betrayal is the opposite of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it takes away all the feeling of safety and it ruptures the attachment bonds.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's, it's a big deal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, something that I mentioned to you before we started recording was that I thought it might be helpful for us to do a short role play that would demonstrate a regression in the middle of a conversation with a couple that are dealing with trying to heal from betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that we could do it first in a way that is going to not be very repetitive and healing, but that I think is incredibly common, especially before people learn about regression and learn how to catch it and manage it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe we can talk a little bit about that role play, and then we can do it again, and maybe have a different outcome and talk about that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's play.

[SPEAKER_03]: So let's do a quick role play.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to be a couple that are trying to have a calm conversation about rebuilding trust, but one of us gets triggered and regresses and then we'll break down what happened.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so just for our listeners, quick background, this couple is [SPEAKER_03]: approximately eighteen months into healing from betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: So the discovery of the initial betrayal was eighteen months earlier.

[SPEAKER_03]: They have rebuilt some trust and have been doing quite a bit of work together to heal.

[SPEAKER_03]: But of course, as most couples do, there are still vulnerable moments.

[SPEAKER_03]: And recently, they've agreed on some new boundaries about transparency and communication, including text messages.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, that's the background.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to play the betrayed partner and John, you will play the betrayed partner.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, just again, give a little bit more context.

[SPEAKER_03]: Earlier in the day, I saw a notification pop up on John's phone from an unknown number.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I reacted, and instead of asking about it calmly, I immediately felt a rush of fear and anger, and the fear time traveled me back to the discovery of the initial betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I am starting the conversation already dysregulated.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so here it goes.

[SPEAKER_03]: John, I told you that I needed you to be more transparent with your phone and just yesterday when I asked about a call that I saw come up or a number that I saw come up.

[SPEAKER_03]: You got really defensive.

[SPEAKER_01]: You were looking at my phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it made me feel like you were hiding something again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you promised to agree that you weren't going to be looking at my phone ever since we've been in therapy and counseling.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been working.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't you remember telling me that you, you are going to look at my phone anymore?

[SPEAKER_03]: This is what always happens.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're turning it around on me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, this is exactly as you.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have an agreement that you would not look at my phone and you betrayed me.

[SPEAKER_03]: I betrayed you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are you kidding me?

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and there it goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: There, and we're off to the races.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now this is a three hour argument, minimal three hour.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to sleep in the guest room tomorrow morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to speak to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're going to call your best friend and talk to her and you're going to grow yourself back up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to grow myself back up for thirty days, which is not going to be helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what happens is if this continued, I'd be continuing to accuse you of minimizing and hiding things for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then you would accuse me of never letting go of the past.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now I've betrayed you because I've looked at the phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: And both of us as happened would be talking over each other.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our voices would get raised.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that would be because both of our nervous systems are in a state of fight, fight, or free.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Totally disregulates.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, how about this?

[SPEAKER_01]: You do what you did, I saw of your phone, and I'm going to stay in my adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, are we trying there?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, let's try that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right, so you start.

[SPEAKER_03]: John, we just came up with all of these agreements around technology and text messaging and communicating and you agreed to all sorts of boundaries and then just yesterday, I saw a phone number come up on your phone and I asked you and you became immediately defensive about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wouldn't answer me?

[SPEAKER_03]: Wouldn't tell me and made me feel like I was wrong to ask you.

[SPEAKER_01]: How are you?

[SPEAKER_01]: How are you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that all you're gonna say?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to take a walk and take the dog and I'm going to come back and I'm going to explore with you what I feel and tell you what I need.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, why am I going to give you the opportunity to tell me about what you need when you've...

Well, it's not about you giving me anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sending a boundary right now while I'm still in the dull place to be able to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I say, and I can't talk about it now, but I didn't hear you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I heard you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm going to go and make some deep breaths and take a walk and make sure that I'm still in what John Lee calls my adult brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'll come back and I'll try again.

[SPEAKER_01]: So boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries.

[SPEAKER_03]: So John, what would you tell the betrayed partner to do at this stage?

[SPEAKER_01]: To respect the boundaries and take care of herself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she needs to call somebody or maybe she needs to take the other dog for a walk.

[SPEAKER_01]: or him, but to respect boundaries, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now what happens generally, let's go back to the worst case, when somebody sets a boundary like that, who has betrayed you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Then a couple of scenarios will happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to follow me out the door with a dog.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or you're going to yell at me.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're always running away from stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to judge me and criticize me like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the third possible option is so if you keep walking, I might not be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's the threat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the fourth possibility is, what are you going to do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Call your old girlfriend while you're taking a walk.

[SPEAKER_01]: So as we said earlier, my job is to stay in the adult regardless of what you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the best ways for me to stay in adult is to have very, very good boundaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: See you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is something I've said for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Regression loves company.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm going to regress, I know exactly what to say or do to get you pulled in on today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, now with lots of therapy and time, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be pulled in by those triggers.

[SPEAKER_01]: boundaries boundaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: The second best thing, or maybe equally best thing, is also to set limits.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I come back from the walk with a dog.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll give you an example.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say, you know, I heard you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I could talk about this for maybe thirty minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then if I can't feel some regulation and resolve, then take a break and then come back and try to get.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, most people, when they regress, limits go right out the window.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why the five started the data clock in the two in the morning, we're still going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you set limits.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what your limits are?

[SPEAKER_01]: And sadly, most people don't know what their limits are until they've been surpassed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they get angry at the person who surpasses them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they get angry at themselves for letting them be surpassed.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to highlight what you said about boundaries being so important because it's a dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: I see a lot in this population.

[SPEAKER_03]: So both people, all human beings need to have boundaries to keep us safe, to keep us aligned with our own values, to keep us in healthy relationships, all of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the threat of leaving from either partner.

[SPEAKER_03]: can cause people to collapse their boundaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's because the greatest fear that most people have is the fear of abandonment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's the problem with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Adults can't be abandoned.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's impossible to leave an adult in the mall and abandonment.

[SPEAKER_01]: but adults feel abandoned all the time because that feeling is rooted in childhood and trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just a little bit of a spark will bring it right back to the surface.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the real reason why most adults feel abandoned a lot is because we abandoned ourselves on a regular basis.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we project that onto our partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: and say, no, he's a band thing that your she's a band.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the original abandoned my starts with me, how I abandoned myself in this marriage or in this relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to how you've left me in a minute.

[SPEAKER_01]: But first, I got to start looking at when did I abandoned myself?

[SPEAKER_01]: The client I had yesterday, she says, I lost myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I go, you remember when that happened?

[SPEAKER_01]: Three years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when did the infidelity happen?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, three years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, and I mean, I can't tell you how many betrayed partners I work with that feel so much shame over the fact that they feel like they're betraying themselves by actually staying in a relationship after being betrayed.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's such a complex thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about integrating all of this into the healing, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And really what that looks like.

[SPEAKER_03]: So how does learning how to navigate regression actually strengthen a couple's bond and connection over time?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's kind of like what we said.

[SPEAKER_01]: The more I'm in an adult response mode instead of a regressive reactionary mode, the more I am emotionally regulated, the more you're emotionally regulated, where you reduce conflict and confrontation by fifty men in sixty percent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Basically what I've tried to teach about all this [SPEAKER_01]: is if I'm in my adult state, I'm going to have good boundaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to know what my limits are and I'm going to let you know what those are.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the big one is to never tell your partner [SPEAKER_01]: Honey, I think you're regressing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was just going to be my next question, because I remember I said, I've talked to clients and told them I was going to be doing this part too.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I got a lot of questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: The most common question that I had, the one that came up over and over, was, is it helpful for me to tell my partner when I know they're regressing?

[SPEAKER_03]: And if I don't, then what do I do?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do I just continue to let them, because sometimes they say that it can feel abusive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so this is the way regressive arguments go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whether you've been betrayed or not, goes to exist.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm going to tell you what you said, what you did, why you said what you said, how you shouldn't have said what you said.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I get finished, you're going to tell me how I didn't say that right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then if I don't leave on into counseling when you first asked me to, I wouldn't have even said it at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm going to tell you about you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're going to tell me about me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to tell you about you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to tell me about me at the end of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to have coffee with each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to sleep in the same bed with each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know any more about you and you don't know any more about me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now what I insist on in couples counseling [SPEAKER_01]: is the word I.

You cannot say the word you when you're talking to your partner in this session, not what it has to be I.

And then when you get finished, then now it's your turn.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, the word you, I don't know why I don't know how, but the word you buy itself triggers more people more quickly than practically calling the person an asshole.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, what about when the person says, I feel angry when you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, see, now this is much longer conversation here, but I'll do the quick version.

[SPEAKER_01]: In the sixties and seventies, we had a major leap in communication, especially in relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that major leap was when you I feel.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I used that for a long, long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I realized why not leave the you out?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, honey, right now, I'm feeling pretty angry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what would you say if I said that to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you angry?

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're having a conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now just hear the, hear the difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, right now, honey.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a very angry because you said.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to become defensive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about that work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now here's how I found this out in a big way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I realized that when you I feel was a major advance.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then I got to thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're not teaching clinicians about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd say I want everybody to close their eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: There'd be three other people in the earth.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now I want to close your eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to say something.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want you to see what happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I take the microphone and I just say, you, now open your eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: I heard my dad come into a room.

[SPEAKER_01]: I heard my ex-husband right there.

[SPEAKER_01]: My football coach, my doctor and I got tight in my stomach and I started sweating.

[SPEAKER_01]: All I said was the word you and get these physical reactions, these fantasies, [SPEAKER_01]: These voices.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, yes, get rid of it as often as you can except you look great by cutting.

[SPEAKER_01]: For I love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You cooked a wonderful meal.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you say, what's going on, John?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sad right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you sad?

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: A conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm saying that we're not getting a wall like we've been doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what would you say?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sad too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if I said, you know, I'm sad because you have let me down.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you've let me down too.

[SPEAKER_01]: immediately, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: You think I've let you down.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about how much you've let me down.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I know you have to go.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to respect your time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can I ask you a final question?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, please.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: So for couples listening, who might feel discouraged because regression is still showing up, often in their lives and in their relationship, what is something you would want them to know that might provide some hope?

[SPEAKER_01]: that with practice, it can be caught.

[SPEAKER_01]: And with repair, it's going to bring you closer, not further away.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I just want to keep rear it.

[SPEAKER_01]: If both people are on the same page, very often they're not.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's one person who go, I read another book going to another workshop.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if both people, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you feel like talking about what happened this morning at breakfast?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: How about you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we could do this and just, you know, kind of, been five or ten minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a sign that I'm in my adult brain when I can even say, yeah, no, I'm in a good place and this shouldn't take long at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: where as the regress place is, honey, we need to talk about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I go, would you hand me that shark stick I could put in my eye?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this would be a lot of it's painful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And where about the girls?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that is a hopeful message.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so grateful to you for not just this conversation in our last conversation, but as I said, I'm grateful that you recognized what this is and the damage and harm that regression can cause.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's so strange, you know, I've been teaching this material especially to clinicians for thirty years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of times therapists will just say, well, why can somebody talk about this before?

[SPEAKER_01]: To this day, there's just still the one and only book on the subject is growing yourself back up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And real recently, I sold the audio right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now you can listen to the guy read the book if you're not a reader.

[SPEAKER_03]: that's wonderful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just so you know, I actually told you earlier when we were talking that my son is going back to school this coming week and he's going to be in second grade and I've started a letter to the principal of his school and I'm introducing this concept of regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, not so that, like you said, again, when we were talking earlier, we were saying children don't regress.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not to approach it from that way.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that we need to learn about regression, even to recognize it in others.

[SPEAKER_03]: And as we get older to be familiar with what's happening with our own bodies and with our nervous system and even how others are reacting to us.

[SPEAKER_01]: question a teacher or principal coach could ask themselves, is how am I feeling right now before I say what I'm about to say to these kids?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I love that question and I have to say that to my son.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks again, John, for joining me today for Part Two of this really important conversation about emotional regression, and specifically, it's impact on couples recovering from betrayal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Something that I've definitely noticed is that these patterns can really show up in ways that keep partners stuck when they're really just trying to connect and repair.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I truly appreciate your openness and exploring how awareness and healing in this area can create space for growth and connection [SPEAKER_03]: and deeper, more meaningful recovery.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really honored that you have chosen to spend some of your time with me and share your expertise and humor with me and my listeners.

[SPEAKER_03]: So something that is really surprising to me is growing yourself up is the only book on the topic of emotional regression.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking maybe people feel that you did such a great job, John, and covered it all that another book wouldn't even be valuable or add something to the field.

[SPEAKER_03]: So for anyone who has not read the book, please order growing yourself up immediately, or as soon as you finish listening to this episode.

[SPEAKER_03]: I also want to gently remind all of my listeners that on the helping couples heel podcast, I bring on many different voices and perspectives.

[SPEAKER_03]: You may not agree with everything that every guest shares and that's completely okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: My only hope for you is that you take what resonates for you and what feels supportive for your healing.

[SPEAKER_03]: This podcast is simply about holding space for a wide range of human experiences and voices.

[SPEAKER_03]: because the reality is there is no single path to healing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you as always for listening and for being part of this community.

[SPEAKER_03]: I am so grateful to walk alongside you on this journey and thanks again, John.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much again.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was my pleasure and I hope the people get something out of it and we'll talk to you soon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bye bye.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bye bye.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call five-six-two-three-seven-nine-four-three-two-five.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.