[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

[SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization.

[SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello everyone and welcome back to the helping couples he'll podcast this is Marty and as I promise about a month ago when I interviewed Chandler Rogers, I was going to have Chandler come back for part two.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been doing this quite a bit recently where I'm just not able to wrap up the interview in time and there's just more to talk about.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, Chandler, welcome back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here with us again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Marty.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad we get to continue the conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're listening and you did not hear the first part, my suggestion would be to hit stop now and listen to part one so that you have more of a context for this new conversation that we're having today.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Chandler, when we were wrapping up our last conversation, we had said that we were going to pick up right where we were leaving off.

[SPEAKER_02]: And where we were leaving off is you were talking about all of the learning that you and your wife had in these five years that you were married.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that also coincided with the five years that you were running this app that you'd created.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm wondering if you want to share a little bit about all of that stuff, all of the learning that the two of you had.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a big question.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is a big question because it's also like, hey, what have you learned about how to be married in five years and I'm like, I'm learning that I don't know a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is the that is the first thing I'm learning because I really think that first year I started to relay about a year into being married that first year was still I think really focused on me and my own recovery.

[SPEAKER_01]: her helping me see shame that I hadn't quite recognized in myself and how to step out of that shame to learn how to approach my own recovery from a more, I guess healthy point of view.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think as things got further into the relationship, we were figuring out what intimacy looks like for us in all of the ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that was really surprising for us when we got married is we thought our personalities was like very similar when we were dating and once we were married, [SPEAKER_01]: It felt like different parts of her, and I'll just be from my point of view, felt like different parts of her kind of came out, not parts that she was hiding, but just like certain wounds from her past, or just other parts to what makes Jade, my wife, her that weren't as present when we weren't married.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was almost like this new stage of the relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, we were continuing to learn more about each other and that brought new types of conflict, new barriers and communication, it highlighted gaps in skills, I think that we both had in terms of like how to meet each other's needs, and also just figuring out she really was seeking a lot of quality time and for her to feel attuned to emotionally.

[SPEAKER_01]: The types of conversation she was hoping to have would just take a lot of time, like hours in the evening.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I was still working for a different start-up, and as I ended up starting relay, I've always been really busy, maybe borderline, workaholic, for better or worse, and I felt like that conflict which sounds simple of like, she felt disappointed a lot of the time when I just wasn't available until, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, eight nine o'clock at night and I felt guilty or shame from trying to figure out how do I actually juggle responsibilities at work and also meet her needs at home.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels not fair to me and so I'm feeling wounded and we get into these cycles of feeling like we wish the other person could better meet us where we were at.

[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, I don't feel like that's something that I necessarily figured out the answer to.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's something I think we're still working on.

[SPEAKER_01]: But as it pertained to my addiction, I can't remember when my first slip happened after we got married, but it was around a year.

[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't really get past a year in sobriety.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like where I was at.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I told her, so I made the decision to be honest.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the first time, like we talked about this in the Part 1 episode, [SPEAKER_01]: early on when we were dating when I disclosed to her, hey, this is something I'm struggling with.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was pretty understanding and she took a pretty, I would say mature approach to helping me realize that I didn't have a porn problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: I probably had a pain problem and porn was something that I had learned to address pain.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't like that this time around in marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: It felt more personal.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had had a lot more call it experience with sex and intimacy at that point.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it felt more like a betrayal, even though there wasn't necessarily any other forms of infidelity that were happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I was trying my best to be fully honest with her, but it hurt her a lot more.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think than it did early on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think either one of us really knew what to do with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, it kind of, I think, sent me back to just doubling down on, I'm going to take ownership, I'm going to continue to figure this out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the years after that, we were trying to figure out how much communication is actually helpful, like she was like, do I actually want to know if you're still relapsing or do I not?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that I think for her is created a new layer called it in the last few years of our marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: The last couple years, maybe, because our oldest son knows he'll be two in a few months.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so in this latest stage of now having our first kid, we're re-figuring out our relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think she has still been in a stage where I'm not sure I want to really know a whole lot about your recovery because it feels safer to not because I've had kind of this Mary go round of I know that you're always committed but when are the outcomes going to be more reliable and that's where I think we've been learning and trying to grow through that lately.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just shared so much and just taking it all in.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's so much in there that people are going to be able to relate to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Something that's kind of roominating in my head was that you were talking about how before you were married and you shared openly with your wife before she was your wife that you struggled with pornography.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she was supportive and you used to live in mature and she was open to helping you with all of that and then it wasn't like that when it happened once you're married and I thought that that was really an important thing to highlight because that is really the experience that so many partners have.

[SPEAKER_02]: It does feel like a betrayal of the relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I've heard so many partners say is there was a choice.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was a choosing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like life is very busy and there isn't a lot of time.

[SPEAKER_02]: There isn't a ton of time to be watching lots of porn and then being intimate and close over here and your actual relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you need to pick one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for a lot of partners, the feeling is you didn't pick me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't choose me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You chose this fantasy life over here and left me out of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it does feel like a mortal injury.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: She felt like, man, there's always things that feel important that I'm having to pick over her, whether it's my work.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was the first person I kind of brought on board to relay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I was trying to create with the app.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there hasn't been anyone I think that's been a bigger cheerleader for me and what we're building with relay than Jade.

[SPEAKER_01]: But on a day-to-day basis, it still feels like, you know, disappointing, discouraging to feel like he's picking me or picking something else emotionally over me and then to have kind of this undercurrent, this recurring sexual betrayal, maybe it's more intimacy, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: This betrayal of intimacy where you're not able to choose me as fully as maybe I need.

[SPEAKER_01]: and now there's these times where I don't know if I can count on you to be instilling the sense of trust and safety that I need to feel.

[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't been smooth, it hasn't been simple, and I'll mention too, kind of concurrently with my own story and my own work that I've been doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's been trying to do some of her own work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Separate from anything in our relationship, she realized she had a lot of stuff from her own childhood that she hadn't addressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: As she's been in therapy and working through things, she also dealt with a lot of severe depression and anxiety during the COVID years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was also part of my experience as I feel like, man, I don't want to hurt her even more when I see her already struggling to feel happy just with her baseline, with her life and what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, watching her struggle with her own kind of behavioral coping, whether it's scrolling Instagram or trying to do things that make her feel better.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that she could have empathy with me, but I think it sucks to know that we are both kind of having our own cycles of self-sabotaging behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: and then not being able to meet her needs as fully as she needed that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now she's reopening wounds from her past and she's kind of seeing the echo chamber of ways that I've hurt her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not just when I've acted out with my addiction, but even in conflict or any time that I might do something that makes her feel hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's realizing that her nervous system is still associating a lot of those things with memories with her upbringing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's created.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and you're the therapist, Marnie.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you should teach a therapist, created kind of this, you know, multiple layers that are kind of all related at the same time where you've got my recovery, her own kind of current things that she's dealing with, and then wounds from the past that are definitely related to what's going on and all of that is creating barriers and friction to safe, deep, intimacy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that when you think about like core wounds from the past, child to trauma, all of that, and if you look at it even from like a, either family systems perspective or an IFS perspective, looking at parts, and then looking at regression, what happens for us when we regress into these younger versions of ourselves, think about all the little people trying to run the show in an adult relationship, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We're meant to have two adults in the relationship, making the decision, communicating, [SPEAKER_02]: But when people's nervous system gets impacted, it literally is like suddenly there's all these little people there that take over and it's really difficult to have an adult relationship run by little children.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's such a helpful way to phrase it because when I can remember that it's not this adult version of my wife that is super angry at me or criticizing me feeling like I'm not doing enough, making me feel that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I will say times where I've been able to see it that way because I did some of my own work with IFS and kind of just understanding that there are these parts and some of them are still like these little boys little girls that have these needs that got stuck in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: Man, it's helped me be able to see through that smoke screen and realize she's not really trying to come at me from this place of.

[SPEAKER_01]: being upset from this, it's this little girl that feels like, man, I just, I need it more from you and for me to be able to hear that and to be with her in that pain in my true adult self is tough that that is tough.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like my young parts of me are like, I think specifically, I forget which part of me, I've kind of named this maybe like my [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like my hardworking achiever part that's like, what the heck, you know, we are doing the best we can.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're working so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're putting in a lot of consistent effort to juggle all of the things that we need to juggle to appease her in the relationship and demands at work and what we're supposed to be doing in our recovery.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I feel like, man, I'm doing my part and so to feel not seen in that way, it really activates this part of me and that is a cycle that we get into, but you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's these young child parts kind of steering the cars and that doesn't always go well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but what it does to recognize these parts is it creates tremendous amount of compassion.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I love about parts work and I at first in particular is that, and did you ever read the book No Bad Parts?

[SPEAKER_01]: we actually did some readings from that book in the relay community.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't get through the whole book on my own, but it's a great book and what I love about it is that it demonstrates the compassion.

[SPEAKER_02]: that comes out of doing this kind of work, because it recognizes every part as trying to be, well, parts are meant to be adaptive.

[SPEAKER_02]: They want to help, they want to protect.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're habitual patterns of trying to get safety.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when you can look at them, as they weren't trying to be hurtful, even though they could be, you know, many of us get harmed by these other parts of ourselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we look at why they were doing it, why they were showing up, what were they needing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: What was the wound?

[SPEAKER_02]: Then it allows us to have a lot more compassion and empathy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's really what I love about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, like at its foundation, I think it creates a lot of room for us to feel compassion for ourselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for the people that we love when we look at very young reports.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's very well said.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you still haven't shared sort of where you're at now with your recovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: You said that about a year.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was that relapse and then you did go and you told your wife, do you want to come back to that and like sort of bring us into the current.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it feels interesting and I think many people in our cover could probably relate to this where just because you figure something out at one chapter of your journey doesn't mean it always transfers a hundred percent to the next segment of the journey and so as we've had our first kid as I mentioned in the last year and a half you know that's created some new variables trying to figure out even like basic self care things because what I've learned is that.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I can take care of my core biological needs, like sleep and good nutrition and some amount of exercise, even just like hydration and breathing.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I can let my body get some good oxygen, some deep breaths, I tend to move really quickly from one thing to another and I kind of hold that tension in my body.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get the oxygen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I forget to drink and eat throughout my day because I'm just so go-go-go.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when I can do those things, those core self-care things, [SPEAKER_01]: Recognize my emotional needs.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've also learned in my recovery.

[SPEAKER_01]: My biggest kind of boundary areas like where I know I'm getting close to the cliff.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you will vulnerable to relapses if I'm feeling stressed or unseen in the relationship or if I'm feeling micro doses of rejection or even resentment like man I'm carrying 200% of the load right now and I'm not being treated like I would want to be treated in our marriage [SPEAKER_01]: Man, those things, if I'm not able to regulate those emotions, and my nervous system has a really tough time, and we go back to survival mode with behaviors that take us out of that and escape.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I've learned that, man, it's hard to do that with a kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still trying to figure out, how do I ensure that I can get my core, [SPEAKER_01]: sleep and exercise in daily, my wife may not be able to help have dinner ready when I get home and I don't necessarily expect that, but if I'm not thinking about food then that is going to set me up to be less capable of handling whatever emotions are going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of been this last chapter I would say is learning how to adapt skills that I think I have mastered in previous chapters.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do I master them in these new chapters and having compassion with myself for not being perfect in all of these ways?

[SPEAKER_01]: Given the increased complexity and things with work and hiring employees, we've had employees leave.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm learning that, I don't know, I have a lot of emotions too in the workplace.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to be seen at work, even though I'm the CEO, the founder of the company, and I have a lot of, [SPEAKER_01]: relationships with people who are more senior than me, clinicians and other organizations that we partner with, and I'm constantly feeling the need to perform and do well and be what I feel like I need to be to make relay something that can help the most amount of people possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got to be careful to take care of my own inner parts through that process and not just be so focused on trying to do all of the things that feel like others need from me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so all of those things I think both at home and work have given me a lot of reps lately to grow and we can speak a little bit about the relationship and kind of where things are at now.

[SPEAKER_01]: If that's interesting, should we go into that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that that's very interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, big demographic of my audience are couples who are navigating their own journeys and trying to figure out how and can we and how can we make this work and any stories I think of other people and what they've done is really helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, please, please share with us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so in our community, I've worked with a lot of guys who are, you know, in relationships and their story of discovery and what's going on in their relationships in the betrayal that their partners are going through is maybe happening more in a chronological sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is an initial discovery and there is this kind of rupture and I know you've talked a lot on previous episodes about just betrayal and everything that kind of goes on within the betrayed partner and the trauma that that creates.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, my story I felt like because I disclosed sorely on, there wasn't necessarily the lying component.

[SPEAKER_01]: It maybe wasn't as chronological or as concentrated as maybe the right word within a particular point in time.

[SPEAKER_01]: This has been kind of an ongoing thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think my wife's betrayal [SPEAKER_01]: has evolved, it wasn't maybe, I don't even think she would call up a trail at the beginning, but in the last year, as she's been, I think, learning more about the traumas and wounds from her past that don't have anything to do with me or happened before our relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's been realizing that there are emotional barriers in terms of feeling emotional safety, and then also a physical touch in the last year.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's realizing that in our relationship, she hasn't maybe felt as fully safe as she thought she did.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe parts of her were trying to say, no, Chandler's a good guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: We trust him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to sex and intimacy, just to be like totally clear in terms of what I'm talking about, we haven't necessarily had [SPEAKER_01]: what I would call an impact from my addiction on our intimacy or sex life, at least we didn't think that it didn't seem that way again.

[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't feel like she was dealing with betrayal.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's becoming more aware of, again, this echo chamber of past wounds and how she's been interpreting present things and realizing that she's maybe been ignoring or kind of silencing certain parts of her that are still maybe feeling like, can I really [SPEAKER_01]: Can I feel reliability from him in this relationship emotionally?

[SPEAKER_01]: Consistency is the word that she uses me just in the last few weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to feel consistency in that for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I notice a part within me feels like man.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a core part of my identity is trying to be consistent in all areas of my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to hear that despite all of my best efforts, my partner is having this new awareness that doesn't necessarily line up with any new information she's learning about my [SPEAKER_01]: recovery journey or where I'm even at right now, it's just where she's at in her healing journey is not necessarily the same timeline as where I've been at.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not even necessarily related in terms of like the healing that she's been on, but she's realizing that there is still a relevancy to me and where I'm at my recovery.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that relevancy's becoming highlighted, and I think it's leading to new layers of pain.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so right now like real time what we're working on is like what do you need for me specifically in terms of communication consistency to know that you can build more trust especially as it pertains to where I'm at my recovery because for a while I think she was just like I trust him and again her perspective really on was he's being too hard on himself and he's clearly still stuck in the shame and she was seeing it from this early mature.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the parts of her at least that were present in those moments, I don't think we're really coming from a part of betrayal.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were like coming from a part of compassion, empathy, and total confidence that this doesn't define you and you're going to be able to like work through this and outgrow this and heal and this isn't defining of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's parts of her that maybe weren't attuned to along the way that are now coming up now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're having to learn how to be okay with that and how to work through that and [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I think just the testament that sometimes healing the relationship isn't linear, so yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is not linear.

[SPEAKER_02]: As a couple's therapist, I've been doing this for so many years.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I said this last time we spoke that there are maybe a small handful of cases where people come in and they follow these steps and then whatever reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get through it in a few months and back to normal.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but very, very rare.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just so because we're dealing with human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: and human beings by nature are difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember I had Stan Tappkin on my podcast a while ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've had him a few times, and I think the first time he said something like, listen, we're wonderful human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of wonderful qualities, but we're also left around devices.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are messy and obnoxious and disrespectful and have all sorts of problems.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, [SPEAKER_02]: relationships and human beings are messy and therefore it's difficult to find some sort of a linear path forward and I think that that's really hard for people that are trying to recover from betrayal because the pain is so great and the desperate desire to get out of the pain and move forward is so great and so there is this desire to give me a structured plan you know tell me the steps I'll do them I'll do whatever it takes because we want to move out of this and unfortunately [SPEAKER_02]: Even if you are at one point on a bit of a structured or more obvious path, there's typically something that'll happen that'll throw you off that path.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it's so important, I think, to have specialists, you know, a team of people that you trust to guide you on this path, so that when you do get lost, where you're confused or something does happen that throws you off that you have somebody that can say, okay, like, let's take a breath, let's re-center ourselves and let's figure out where we need to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think even on that note about the importance of having specialists and support from people who are trained or have gone through this before with their own journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that can't be understated and maybe one thing I've observed in our own marriage is through my work with Relay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I spend time talking to therapist a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like kind of by nature of [SPEAKER_01]: We kind of passively absorb a lot of resources and content, and that's been helpful in a sense, but we've also realized, well, it's probably still good that we still need a good therapist as well to work with directly, and we also could probably benefit from, you know, this course or this other thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what's interesting is I've kind of seen first hand how it's discouraging it can be when it feels like okay well I've done that I put some money I invested in going to this intensive or working with a therapist for this period of time and we both have been kind of doing stuff like that and to feel like we're still need maybe more support like if we're being honest like there's probably more that we could benefit from if we were willing to and wanted to invest in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think just realizing like also it's not always like working with one person doing one program doing one thing I think we want that to be the end right we want that to be and that sets me up with everything I need forever [SPEAKER_01]: I think what I've learned for myself and then seeing as we built this out through our community with Relay is this is often less of like, yeah, dealing with a short-term issue and containing a forest fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: That might be phase one.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then there's really like, how do we just learn to be, I guess, more whole integrated, healthy adult human beings and that?

[SPEAKER_01]: is kind of a lifelong thing that never ends and because life is messy like you are saying in relationships or messy, whether it's related to the original thing that brought us to see help in the first place.

[SPEAKER_01]: The chances that we go through life when we continue to be in a position where we need more support, we should probably reach out for more help or other resources, even if we've done stuff before.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think just even that framing of not being discouraged is important.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that we can just go through one thing and expect everything to work out.

[SPEAKER_01]: and willing to invest in getting what help we need for each stage of the journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really believe at this point in my life with everything in me that we are here to grow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what I have come to is that the meaning of life is growing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is us continuing to grow to bend our edges, to move in ways that might be uncomfortable, but that we're continuing to learn about ourselves and challenge ourselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there can't be in that sense if we believe that to be true, then there can't be just one way forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: There can't be like one school of thought that works.

[SPEAKER_02]: There has to be the ability to integrate from a lot of different places and a lot of different beliefs and modalities and approaches and theories.

[SPEAKER_02]: all of these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a quote it says, beware of the tyranny of the one right way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so true because if you think you know it all, then you're going to stop learning because there's so many people here to share their knowledge and their experience and all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that is a great summary of the purpose of life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that fits in with my Christian world view too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think for any of those who are listening that are faith-based, I think that is a deeply true principle that whether you believe in God or not, I think that we are on this Earth to grow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really, I think there isn't a true staying in one place where you're moving forward and growing, expanding, or we're progressing and shrinking.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also if you just even think about like going to the gym, how do I grow muscles?

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes new resistance if I just did the same amount of weight every time I'd be stuck, you know, maxed out at my growth after a few weeks and so I think even just taking that in stride when it's like a new obstacle pops up a new player of this challenge that is like, oh man, like this feels more overwhelming trying to look at that as like it's the next layer of resistance that can help me keep growing.

[SPEAKER_02]: totally and we don't just keep growing in the good times.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sadly, often so much of our growth does happen when we are in pain or were challenged or bad things happen to us just all of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: When we are in the worst pain, it's so easy to look at what is the meaning of all of this and to not be able to imagine finding meaning in suffering.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of my favorite books is Victor Franklin's book, Man Search for Meaning and he talks a lot about this and his perspective is that [SPEAKER_02]: like the greatest meaning is found through the greatest suffering and I really resisted that when I first were that book many years ago and I again have come to a place where I think that there's so much truth in that and it helps me actually get through the harder times a little bit better with more ease knowing there is some growth happening that I'm making meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it really helps and I feel pretty comfortable saying most of the people that listen to this podcast are [SPEAKER_02]: pain in their lives and confusion and fear and all of these other things and at the same time, even just listening to this podcast is a way to grow, to learn, to find new meaning, to make new meaning, to learn a new approach to something or a new concept about something.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as long as we are [SPEAKER_02]: And even though we're growing and we're expanding and we're learning about ourselves, when we are in pain, we also desperately need community and we need others and we need patients and we need resources.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so to segue back, I'd love to use this last part of our conversations and opportunity to talk about this resource that you created relay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And not talk about it as we spoke about earlier from like this perspective of an [SPEAKER_02]: But more about why did you choose that as a man and recovery yourself, I imagine that you recognize what was helpful to you and maybe what wasn't helpful to you and how you might be able to be helpful to others.

[SPEAKER_02]: So can you share a little bit about that journey with us?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think in part one, we talked about my first step into recovery was joining a therapist-led group over Zoom.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think connection was what I really gained from that early experience, realizing that I needed connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I had connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't just connection with other people, I think it was becoming more connected with myself, with my own emotions, with my shame.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was kind of this reconnection.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think of some of my parts that allowed me to make more progress.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I observed is that connection even in a group setting, even in a recovery program can be hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I noticed this for myself and I think what led to creating relay was really seeing this playout for a lot of other people who I knew in these groups.

[SPEAKER_01]: was that stepping into a group feels like I'm making a courageous choice to step out of the dark step out of isolation and to get connection because I know I can't do it alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's some sort of surrender where, okay, I need other people fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll join a group at least for most people.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it feels like I'm making that deliberate transition out of doing this alone to doing this with other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think one of the fallacies or the common traps I noticed that it was easy to fall into myself and others is just because you're in a group doesn't mean that you are walking in vulnerability, rigorous honesty, and connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's still a muscle that needs to be trained and grown and exercised.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess what I mean by that is [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to show up into like, I guess, check the box like I'm doing this, putting money into this, a lot of other people are just too scared to even do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because it was scary to get here, it feels like I've done my part.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then stopping there, I think, is a huge missed up and realizing that to actually take advantage of, having a group to find what I would consider like healthy and holistic accountability, it requires a lot of intentional work and learning and training.

[SPEAKER_01]: I realized that that was kind of tough.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was very nebulous.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my groups, we used a group chat on what's app and group me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for one thing, a lot of those platforms, there are kind of these backdoor accesses to porn or like people will message you randomly with spam, a group chat, so join this crypto thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just like those platforms are problematic in and of themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, they're not designed to help [SPEAKER_01]: build recovery skills and fundamentals.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're just a group chat and so I was trying to take a lot of initiative over the years that I was in groups to figure out, okay, how do we work together effectively and take full advantage of this group outside of our one hour a week that we're actually together?

[SPEAKER_01]: How do we not just go back into our corner and be isolated there as the week because that's what kind of was happening?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's really what inspired the first version of Relay, which was how do we create a platform that is especially designed for this early stage of recovery that makes it easier to stay connected to stay accountable, to work the recovery steps and skills.

[SPEAKER_01]: Seven days a week, not just an hour a week, because I think most groups traditionally are either an in-person or online group that [SPEAKER_01]: once a week, or maybe if you're talking like a 12-step group, you can find groups that need daily or so some people go to a lot of groups, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of people don't have time for that was also one problem and so even from like a startup perspective or like we think a lot of people are not ready to show their face and walk into an in-person group.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or they don't have time for that because their work schedules are their home commitments with family and so the idea for relay was can we make it more accessible for one where you can stay semi-anonymous meaning you don't have to show your face so you can just use your first name or a nickname but we can match you into a group so you have a tight knit dedicated space with other people that you can get to know in a safe environment and start to have some shame-free accountability and also just learning for me [SPEAKER_01]: My wife or my girlfriend at the time, my parents who I'd talk to about this, they were not the best accountability partners for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel like they really fully could see me because they didn't understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't going through it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I knew the guys in my group there was something special about being able to motivate each other in a way that it wasn't just about sobriety.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was how do we grow and become healthier together.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it lacks structure.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the app was about how do we not just put a group chat in an app that we, you know, we slap a label on it and say, this is for people who deal with sexual addiction.

[SPEAKER_01]: Part of it was like, yeah, can we make a space that is more private and anonymous and dedicated?

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to like give your phone number to sign up for example.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even little things like that right, making it really accessible.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now can we build some other tools so it was this process of like we built a clinical advisory board and we started to get input from therapists on what ideally would exist in an app that would allow people to have structure and tracking.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we've developed a system that has a lot of different things now but people can personalize their recovery plans so they're not actually just tracking you know did I look at porn yesterday did I act out whatever that [SPEAKER_01]: what defines a relapse, what violates my integrity, what am I striving for?

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's even customizable.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have kind of the three circles approach where that inner circle is like their bottom line.

[SPEAKER_01]: They can define that and then we also help expand what they're actually tracking beyond that to that middle circle is really what are the risky behaviors or the boundary behaviors that indicate that I'm getting too close to the edge.

[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe it's like, yes, staying up past midnight or going to bed alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: not with my partner or scrolling social media or not regulating when I feel rejection or not naming that with somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: So whatever that is, we allow them to set up their middle circle and then their outer circle is all about self-care.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think a lot of people are surprised when they come into the app and it's like asking them about how's your sleep, how's your exercise, how's your mental and emotional health, like what are you doing to like build self-care and healthy rhythms and routines?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's tracking all of those things and so every day I open the app I can go in and check in It doesn't just ask did I real apps or not?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also Specifically each of my middle circle and my outer self-care goals.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can input those things and then my group can see those check-ins kind of automatically So it creates this [SPEAKER_01]: kind of gamified fun system where somebody could come in, Marnie, if you were in my group, you could see the Oh Chandler checked in for yesterday and you can see how I did with my self-care and my boundaries and my sobriety and draw a little smiley face on the check-in and leave me a note of encouragement like, hey, I know that you've been struggling with exercise, so we also try to like make it to where in the groups by default what I noticed just going back to my own experience is if left to their own devices, most guys, they don't know how to use these [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, hey, I'm feeling tempted.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I had a relapse and the ability to do anything beyond that is kind of a mystery.

[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, we're teaching them what is healthy sharing look like.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of it is just learning how to journal about my emotions identifying.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do I need today to address my needs in healthy ways?

[SPEAKER_01]: naming that with my group so being able to share into the group kind of proactively it's processing feelings and then on the behavioral side giving my group a window into a broader picture of accountability beyond just did I relapse or not how am I moving towards self care and health.

[SPEAKER_02]: How many guys are in the groups?

[SPEAKER_01]: We capture them at eight, usually.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's pretty.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a reddit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I cap all of my groups at eight as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Eight's also my favorite number.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that works really well.

[SPEAKER_02]: I did want to mention one thing when you talked about the circle plan and how you integrate the circle plan into your groups.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are you familiar with the fourth circle or the other circle?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of our clinical advisers is the force circles in his groups.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, good.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad to hear that because I will only use a four circle plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't ever leave that four circle out because when we are talking about being accountable and we're talking about wanting to have integrity and we're talking about learning healthy intimacy, it's really important to recognize the impact of our behavior on other people, particularly our intimate partners.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I do feel like, [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not telling you it had to run your app.

[SPEAKER_02]: You obviously have a person that knows this stuff, but I just, you should tell us more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so how would that for a circle fit in?

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'd love to hear you go a little bit more into that.

[SPEAKER_01]: What is that force circle really about?

[SPEAKER_02]: So the force circle is it's a plan words.

[SPEAKER_02]: It really does mean the other circle, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So what is the other circle?

[SPEAKER_02]: You've got your inner, your middle and your outer circle.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is the other circle.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's who are the others that are impacted by your circle plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in other words, if you, [SPEAKER_02]: end up in your inner circle who's going to be impacted.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't end up in your inner circle, who are those people that are going to be impacted?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I have people that'll put in their pets because I can't tell you how many porn addicts I've worked with who have said.

[SPEAKER_02]: I literally like wouldn't walk my dog for hours and hours while I sat in my room and the dark and just looked to pornography.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my dogs needed to go out and like the dogs would go with bathroom in the house [SPEAKER_01]: yeah understanding the impact both on moving towards unhealthy behaviors or moving towards health and healthy living yeah what are the implications on people and relationships that's cool well because the other things with addiction is you all the belief around addiction is that it's only harming the person who is engaging in the behavior [SPEAKER_02]: And so, when somebody thinks that they're not harming other people and just themselves, they're able to.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very narcissistic.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, then you're looking at it through this vacuum of, you know, this is only about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: But once you take into account and you look at how you are harming the other people that are in your lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then you recognize this is not just about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't just look at it through the lens of this is only about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually recognizing that if I enter that inner circle, there are other people whose lives are going to be drastically impacted by my behavior.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I need to think about that consciously and I need to identify what those people are and I need to keep them in my mind at all times.

[SPEAKER_02]: And remember that this is not just about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a huge impact on other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think being able to process that from a non-shame-based approach is really difficult for a lot of men that we work with in early recovery where it's like, okay, I know it's hurting my wife, but the only way that I can actually articulate that is I'm such a piece of crap because, yeah, I'm ruining everyone's life, especially my wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm blowing up our family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we have an exercise that they actually do that I guess it does kind of relate to this idea, I guess we don't call it the fourth circle, but it is like creating your why as like a document that's a living and breathing statement that encompasses [SPEAKER_01]: And having that, we explicitly kind of guide them to what are the reasons beyond yourself, not for your own life, that you want change.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that helping them create a mission statement, a vision board, if you will.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: What does this mean if I'm able to continue to work my recovery for my relationships?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a huge motivator.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing because, you know, we grow in relationships, we heal in relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: We also get wounded in relationships, which is why we need to heal in relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when we are open to doing that, I think that our relationship stands such an incredible chance.

[SPEAKER_02]: If expansion in a way that you can't even imagine early on, right, if there's so much fear about will this ever get better, will my partner ever forgive me, will we ever have [SPEAKER_02]: any kind of emotional or physical intimacy, again, so much uncertainty and fear, but the reality is that research has shown and my own practice over the last let's say 15 plus years has shown me that when people do the work often.

[SPEAKER_02]: The relationships get better in a way that people never even anticipated was possible, and that's why I love this work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We actually say this in the app when it shows up, and I tell a lot of our guys this in meetings and such that this app isn't about helping you quit porn.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's about helping you rebuild intimacy to restore connection with yourself and others.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that really is like, [SPEAKER_01]: destructive, unwanted behavior, I think as a society, what it's doing, yes, it's having individual impact, I believe it's having a lot of negative impact on mental health and the shame, but I think what it's really doing is the isolation that it creates, the erosion of intimacy, I think that's why sometimes it's called an intimacy disorder.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think as a society, if we want to restore vibrant connection, healing these underlying wounds allows us to restore that closeness again and all, all relationships, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: and healing wounds requires being present to feel and to look at what the wounds are, right in order to heal them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So utilizing porn, utilizing prostitutes, affairs, strip clubs, I mean anything that's outside of ourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: It takes us absolutely away from being able to look at the wounds and heal the wounds, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we stay when we're not in a place of wanting to recover or get sober, people will just stay stuck in those patterns of not being present with themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're for they don't heal and then they never have the beauty of what life can look like with real true intimacy and connection and [SPEAKER_02]: without shame, because when we are not looking at our wounds, then we only see life in ourselves and our actions and all of that from our lens of shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no connection and there's no compassion in shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's also awful and filled with hopelessness and a sense of, I'm not enough or I'm not good enough or I'll never be enough or any of those things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I will say that when we start to look at the harm that we've caused the people that we love that will bring up for sure shame that will activate shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so again, the anecdote of all of that is coming back to something like your app or what I offer at my company, which is lots and lots of groups.

[SPEAKER_02]: is you have to heal with other people that shame can't live.

[SPEAKER_02]: Their burning brown has a quote and it says something like, if you take shame and you put it in a petri dish and you doubt it with empathy, it cannot survive, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so how does that happen?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the way you do that in real life is with other people is getting into groups and communities with others so that you are able to share yourself honestly, speak your shame and then let other people respond to you [SPEAKER_02]: And what that does for a person who never felt like they were good enough to be accepted and then if they really did show themselves who they are, that they would be rejected and they would be kicked out of the tribe.

[SPEAKER_02]: So to be able to have the opposite experience of sharing who you really are and having people say, you're not the sum of everything that you've done that's wrong, you're still a good person with a good heart and redeemable qualities.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I still like you.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we heal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's how we build resilience to shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: I will put in a plug right here that after many, many, many months, I should say it's more like over a year of working on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just completed 12-week shame course for men.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will be actually doing one for women in 2026.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this one, it's a live program.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be facilitating it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It starts September 17th, but we're also offering it as a self-paced program.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for anybody who's really struggling with shame, [SPEAKER_02]: is an able to get into a group right now to actually do the work on a schedule with others in a structured way.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can go to the website and find that shame course and work through it on your own time, so pretty powerful opportunity for some healing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Chandler, I want people to be able to find you or find your app if they think it would be helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what is the best way for them to be able to do that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they could go to the website.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the website is www.joinrelay.app.

[SPEAKER_01]: Joinrelay.app.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's on the App Store or on the Play Store.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have iOS or Android, you can search it up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we offer a free trial.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people, men and women, you feel discouraged from trying lots of things before, maybe.

[SPEAKER_01]: having experiences where you weren't fully seen and that risk of relationships is real when we want to be open.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm super empathetic to that, so we try to make it easy again where you don't have to put in your full name.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't ask for your phone number, like you can come in and it's a week free trial to try it out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it puts you with a group.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, if it is helpful for anyone, definitely feel free to check it out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm just curious what we could have this conversation because I know that we both care a lot about helping people step out of shame and step into a place where you can get that support, that community, that connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it does take a variety of tools and resources to help give you that, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Just one person isn't enough, just one thing usually isn't enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, it takes a real team.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of amazing colleagues in this field.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love collaborating with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I often refer my own clients to other people for this intensive or that workshop or this podcast or that book.

[SPEAKER_02]: This app, because I believe in what I do and what I can offer.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I also know that human beings, again, go back to what we talked about earlier, are complex.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's many parts of us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And different parts of us need different things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's not just one answer on one path.

[SPEAKER_02]: take that in and realize that there's no one way and you know you don't have to feel bad that you need to maybe try something new.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of the reasons that there's so many resources out there is because we need resources to heal, we need different options, not everything works for everybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: So take the time if you feel it could be helpful to get to know that app, I will also put the information for relay in our show notes and [SPEAKER_02]: Chandler, just thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for taking the time to vulnerability, share your story, and what your path has been with our listeners, and for also recognizing how you might be able to give back to the field and how other people might benefit from some of your own learnings along the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much, Marty.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please stay in touch and to our level of our listeners.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you as always for being here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for allowing me to walk alongside you on this journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: And never stop holding on to hope.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't have hope in this moment, I will hope the hope for you until you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So until next time, take good care.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone.

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