And I said give us 50% of the shares and we'll sell this thing within a five-year period for an eight-figure sum and we'll shift from a 10% margin to a 30% margin.

I'm gonna rock up and I'm gonna change this from recruitment company to a proper delivery consultancy.

We're gonna own the risk, so we can't fuck it up.

Uh came out of very expensive divorce, uh 39, and thought I've been placed anyway, so might as well crack on.

I was fascinated with this.

I remember running a car washing business at 11.

I didn't have to put a shift in, uh, but I was pretty convincing on the sales side.

Alright, it's on the thousand days.

From the time you said, bro, we're gonna build, we're gonna scale, and we're gonna exit.

We moved very, very quickly.

I think it was 1042, but uh obviously a thousand times better.

So if that has to happen three years from today, what do we have to do today, this week, this quarter, this month?

That's different.

I've never heard that before.

That that whole process.

It was very, very intentional.

Hello, Rachel.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much.

Delighted to be here.

Uh I gotta start by just sharing this kind of bizarre story that happened today.

Now, you and I know each other a bit, I'll be here maybe before once, I think, in real life at your event, which we'll talk a bit more about in a moment.

But um we're recording this podcast today, kind of late afternoon.

And earlier today, I I was over in another part of London and I popped in uh lunchtime.

I thought I'd get myself a sandwich, catch up with a few messages and what have you.

And who do I see sitting across the way in this?

I did a double take, and there you were.

What were the chances?

It's it's crazy, but I do think small world, and I'm always of the belief there's a bit of a universe moment going.

There is definitely not just a conversation to be had, but there's a reason, isn't there?

I think that people do, you know, rock up in that way.

It was a strange day for me because um, firstly, in a in a part of London I do know, but I'm not frequently in.

And secondly, uh, over the course of two or three hours, I randomly run into people I know on the same road.

And I'm like, what is going on today?

So uh yeah, very it's wild, very strange.

We're obviously meant to be here today, then to record this conversation.

The universe is telling us something.

Absolutely right, absolutely.

Now, Rachel, I want to go back uh just to your early days.

I'm always fascinated by the kind of entrepreneurial journey that people have gone on and and really how you got started.

Were you some sort of kid that was growing up having an entrepreneurial mindset?

Did you grow up in an entrepreneurial family?

What were those early days like for you?

So the answer is yes to both questions.

Um, and I think as far back as I can remember, I was fascinated with business.

So my father um has had a lot of of big jobs.

And um I remember under 10 playing Murphy Corporation with my middle brother, youngest one wasn't alive then.

Um and I just the idea of business, I loved it.

Probably from watching him uh doing calls, um, and I don't know, it would have been filing um systems, old school, because we're going, you know, I've been around a bit.

Uh and so um I remember running a car washing business at 11 and hiring my mates because I didn't fancy putting a shift in.

Uh, but I was pretty convincing on the sales side.

Uh, and then there was countless kind of you know, telesales.

Uh, we were in the era of um timeshare.

Uh so all I mean, and I'm talking, I was 13, 14, shifting a bit of timeshare.

Uh selling on the telephone just at 13.

Yeah, and it was it was bizarre.

But it was bathrooms and kitchens, booking appointments, it was timeshare, it was all of that stuff.

And I think that it really appealed to me.

Um, and I'm I'm not sure I'd understood just how salesy I was in my younger days.

Uh, but um all of it, uh all of it appealed.

Uh and yeah, over the over the years, uh mum and dad are entrepreneurial, mum's a lawyer, uh, dad has has built uh and acquired I got God knows how many companies.

Wow.

Uh and both brothers are uh entrepreneurs.

So it's really in the family.

It's in the family, and as I'm sure you can imagine, deeply uh dysfunctional and competitive.

But like all families, mate.

Of course, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

That's amazing.

So you grew up and then beyond your sort of um timeshare selling days with as a teenager, what did you do?

Did you go to university or did you get straight into work?

No, I never went to uni.

My my worry with uni was I'd get pissed and never get a degree.

Uh and that was my dad's concern because he would have been paying for it.

And so I I decided early on that I wanted to go straight out uh and work.

And um at that time uh was working selling uh telephone systems P A B X, like back in the day, you know, we're in ISDN2 territory, ISDN 30 territory.

Uh, I did that for a couple of years, and I I was really torn.

I loved the sales, but I couldn't stand it when I sold something and it was implemented badly.

And that drove me into delivery for years uh because um I yeah, it it became really, really important to me that whatever was sold was delivered brilliantly, and the client had a great experience.

So that kicked off a uh uh well, many years of career really around um business change, program management, ultimately kind of running functions in businesses, public, private sector, consultancy, uh, and then actually running those businesses.

So right.

You say something very interesting there, and it is it is a theme that I think it comes up quite a few times in the conversations I have, which is selling.

Yep.

You know, the entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, everyone I know is a good salesperson.

They just know how to articulate their value, explain it to people, close deals.

I guess you agree with that.

You've you've been a good salesperson.

I totally agree with that.

Um, but I was really put off is the wrong word.

I did not want to be doing sales.

And the reason when I was younger, I did not want to do it was the delivery bit was super important to me, but it was as important that I didn't have to um chasing a number would have done my head in when I was younger.

Uh so I just wouldn't have been that stable.

I would have found it deeply uh frustrating and probably been too emotional to do it, if I'm honest.

So I think I never really think older me is is any more mature, but I suspect there's an element of that.

Uh so no, I I didn't want to, I think rejection would have been a big drama for me in my younger years.

The older you get, the less, less you care about that stuff.

So uh you should yeah, don't care.

One rejection is just one step closer to a yes, and then that's the that's the thing.

But I I I'm a I'm a huge fan of that selling ability.

I think it is a gift.

I think you can learn a lot of it.

Uh, but I really, you know, I am so impressed with people that can really sell.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah, me too.

And I've had a sense in the last 10 years or so that's almost become a dying art, almost become a nasty word in a way, you know, selling.

But we always know nothing happens until something's sold, something's bought, assuming that it's high integrity selling and explain to people something that actually will add value to their lives or to the business.

Well, I think that's the key bit, isn't it?

It's the value bit for me, providing whatever you are taking to market is adding that value, and you can get behind it and you've got, you know, credible way of delivering uh and it's proven, then you know, I'm I'm all lit.

Yeah, and you believe in it, you hand on heart believe in the product or the service that you deliver.

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem.

But again, you and you said that you had some frustration.

You you might close a sale, but then there was poor delivery or execution by whoever else was in the organization trying to do it, which again is some frustration.

So, what happened?

Did you end up doing something for yourself?

No, I I kind of agree with the sales director that I could do a hybrid role for a period.

Uh and in the end, um my I think my passion really became the other side, became the delivery side.

Right.

Uh, and so that led me into uh project management initially, um, and actually took me over to KPMG uh over in Holland.

So worked at their international headquarters uh and did some technical uh project implementation work and then kind of went on went on a bit of a journey, really bigger projects, bigger programs, um worked in the States, uh, and did some cool stuff.

Um but but then I guess it became less about the technical and more about the people uh and the process and um and and I think over the years I I've loved the project and the program team.

Right.

But I wanted to um I guess I wanted more of a lasting impact, which meant running business functions, um, you know, was where I moved, I moved into.

Okay, and at what point, because I understood you you worked within the NHS, were you part of a process that created an app and a number of other sort of rollouts within the public sector?

Yeah, so I did um a number of big government uh and healthcare roles.

So um was CIO for the Department for Education um for a number of years and and then went into uh the health regulator, led the business transformation of the health regulator, completely fell in love with healthcare, and I thought I want to get in uh and make a difference.

Had the opportunity to go and run NHS.uk, which was uh digitizing a number of processes, and the main aim was about reducing footfall into uh A.

And as part of that, we launched the NHS app.

Um, so that was the last big uh useful piece of transformation work I did in the public sector.

Interesting.

I I'm I'm curious.

A lot of people I know in the private sector they moan about the public sector.

Very slow moving, um decision-making processes are laborious and hard to sort of get get through.

Um, whereas you know, the private sector would claim to be much more fast-moving entrepreneurial and fast decisions.

I mean, clearly you've come from that entrepreneurial mindset working in such a sort of large monolithic organization in the public sector.

I mean, how did you get on?

Were you frustrated or were you just making your voice heard?

I think um I think the public sector gets some bad, bad rep.

I mean, I've worked for loads of private sector organizations, large businesses that are not as fast as the public sector.

I think startups um and scale-ups are a hell of a lot faster, as you'd expect they would be.

Yeah.

Um but that is not to say that I found it rapid.

I mean, it was painful uh in the public sector a lot of the time, and the process was archaic.

Uh, but I I I've been an interim my entire life, apart from businesses I've owned.

And so therefore, there's an expectation that you're coming in and you're putting a shift in fast and you're moving stuff at almost breakneck speed.

Right.

And and that works perfectly for my personality.

Yeah.

Uh and so I think you can get away with moving stuff really rapidly uh within an 18-month window.

After that, you know, almost certainly whatever you're doing, it's gonna be a lot more scrutiny on that.

Um so and then you then you're off to another project after that.

Your job done moving on.

18 months, 24 months was my kind of tenure.

Right.

Um, and and normally turnaround uh and transformation and stuff where for whatever reason people couldn't get it moving and they needed, you know, a shed load of energy, yeah, uh, and somebody who would fly remarkably close to the uh to the line to get the job done.

And you were that person.

And uh I got that phone call regularly and loved it, absolutely loved it.

Really.

But then you pivoted after that, did you?

So be because I I'm I'm again interested in this because you eventually created your own business.

Um so tell me about that.

Where did the where did the idea come from?

How'd you get started?

So in my in my twenties, I built the first company, and that was very much um a an implementation outfit firm, a bit more than a recruitment company.

Uh, and we were implementing a piece of uh social care software.

And I said to the manufacturer of this software, software is great, but I really feel that you need a professional services team to implement.

I was 23, 24 at the time, and the owner thought, well, he looked like he thought, what the fuck?

Uh are you telling me?

Uh and I said, listen, if you're not going to build the capability, I am.

Wherever you sell into, we're going to rock up and we're going to make damn sure that it gets implemented right.

And so we wrote a million in business in the first year, and and we were we were away.

So that business then ended up building uh e-learning software for uh a number of social care companies.

We built a training academy to train independent contractors on implementing this software.

Um, and we ultimately sold that business.

And and I, you know, that that was very much luck, much more luck than judgment.

Um, and so, you know, by now I'm late 20s, and that was the bit where I said, let's go back and actually learn the art of consulting um and really, I guess, earn my stripes uh and work through um, you know, the project to the program to um running functions.

So I think I I recognized uh it was a consultancy I wanted to run, but I really wanted more experience and so went back as a contractor for I don't know, 10, 15 years, um, and then decided after the NHS role uh that I wanted to build a um a user-centered design consultancy that would focus on the public sector and healthcare.

Right.

And the reason for that was I had come across loads of companies uh in the previous five, six, seven, eight years, but I wasn't convinced that they really understood um what was needed from a user perspective.

And so I fancied having a go, uh, came out of a very expensive divorce, uh, 39, and thought I've been fleeced anyway, so might as well crack on.

Um, and I found that, jokes aside, I found that very motivating.

The kind of almost not quite nothing to lose, yeah, but it was scrappy.

Yeah, you know, I was kind of emotionally bit knackered out, but also I was like, I'm up for it.

You know, there's no time like the present.

I'm I'm on my todd and I can really throw some time at this.

And um, and so I pitched um uh a mate who had a recruitment company who I'd known for years and I'd contracted through him before, and I said, give us 50% of the shares uh and we'll sell this thing within a five-year period for an eight-figure sum, and we'll shift from a 10% margin to a 30% margin.

Um and we actually sold six months earlier than planned, uh, and yeah, we achieved the achieved the plan.

There wasn't a lot of science in that though, mate.

It was more much more gut feel.

Right.

I need to pause there.

We need to we need to unpack this because this is I'm I'm sensing this is a good story.

Is this a company called Difference?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Done a bit of homework.

So explain that again.

That you you had a friend that run a recruitment company, and you go in and say, I want you to give me half the company, your company in exchange for I'm gonna help you just.

I'm gonna rock up and I'm gonna change this from recruitment company to a proper delivery consultancy.

We're gonna own the risk on delivering this work, so we can't fuck it up.

We've got to get it right.

Yeah.

Uh, and um we will take the trading history that you've got, we will take the fact that you're on a couple of these government frameworks and we'll make good use of that.

Uh, and we will go after outcome-based work, and we will case study the backside out of this work, and we will become, you know, the name in that space in really short order.

It's a bit of a risk for your friend, wasn't it?

There's half my business, and uh trust you that it, yeah.

Obviously, a lot of faith in you, to be fair.

You're very convincing.

I am very convincing for for right or for wrong.

Um, I think, yeah, uh, massive amount.

And he's more of a risk taker than I am.

Right.

Uh, so that was a perfect pitch to someone who's a high risk taker, I think.

But but also he'd been in it for 10 years, the numbers were going backwards, the margin was getting squeeze, and he couldn't see a path to move that into into something else.

And you know, I don't want to talk for him, but he didn't have my skill set or network to make the move that we were going to make.

So it was much easier to have a smaller piece of a larger pie.

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Um, and um but but you're right, I I've probably never really looked at it from that lens.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But again I just thought it was a lucky bastard, Alan after we sold it.

Of course, you've always been a good salesperson, let's face it.

That's true.

But it it it shows to me there's there's lots of ways of you know starting a business, getting to business.

You don't have to just literally sit in your kitchen with a laptop and trying to start from scratch with zero.

You can that is a very, I think a very creative, dynamic way to say, well, there is this other business here and they are struggling a bit.

If I added my own skills, contacts, networks, whatever, we could really turn this around.

It's valuable.

So you at least you've got something to go at from day one.

Yeah.

They've got a business, I guess.

They've got contacts, clients, revenues, and what have you, and you can really apply that.

So I think I think that's a big lesson for people.

There are if if you the one plus one could it could can equal three or five or ten if you do it, just the you the two of you getting together and creating this.

A quick pause.

You might not be aware that this podcast is a passion project.

It's born from my commitment to supporting entrepreneurs through the business stages of scaling up, selling, and then life on the other side.

It's the same work we do at Capital Partners, our booty wealth planning firm, which is dedicated to helping entrepreneurs to gain clarity around their money, their aspirations, and ultimately achieving financial peace of mind.

With over 20 years' experience of working with business owners, our team brings deep insight, strategic thinking, and clarity to what can often be complex decisions.

So, what you're really looking for is a trusted advisor.

So someone who understands people like you and can offer thoughtful guidance at the intersection of business, family, money, and life.

In other words, someone to act as your strategic thinking partner and your financial coach.

So if that resonates, feel free to explore more.

There's a link in the show notes to our website with tools and resources to support you on your journey.

Now let's get back to the conversation.

Totally.

And and it was funny because in talking about this, somebody said, So you did an acquisition then.

I said, I've never done an acquisition in my life.

And they would said, but you did.

You acquired 50% of a business.

I said, Oh, well, you can kind of put that spin on anything.

They were like, but but actually, you did acquire 50% of the business, and it was, you know, consulting for equity.

Uh so it's it's interesting, isn't it?

How you hear all these phrases that you don't even know or understand at the point that you make these moves.

No, you don't.

Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of talk in business, isn't there, about all this acquisitions and strategy and blah blah blah.

Yeah, yeah.

But basically, you you pitched a friend and he said, Yeah, that seems like a decent idea.

And anyway, we're not we're going nowhere fast at the moment.

So it it was probably another kind of shit or bust type strategy for them if they were kind of just slowly sort of drifting away as uh in terms of their success and their margin or what have you.

It was like, yeah, let's do it.

Let's go.

Yeah, I think he probably wasn't quite as um open about where they were.

Uh so it was you know I found out though.

Oh, I found out pretty damn quickly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh it but um it's I mean, there's there's a learning there around DD.

You know, I I'd taken a lot of that at face value as well, you know, and the the revenue is like, you know, 4.2, and I get in, it's 2.9, and I'm like, Jesus, there's a bit of a change here.

But you know, all of that you just roll with it, don't you?

And you're like, well, we're here.

This is this is what we're doing, so let's make it happen.

A couple of really interesting points.

But you I I I from based on what you said, this was a a build to exit model.

We're going, I'll go.

Come in, we'll put this together and we're just gonna work like hell and we're gonna find a buyer in you said what within five years you said right.

So that that was a clear strategy.

And was that documented in terms of revenue growth, profitability, finding a buyer, what a buyer looks for, all that stuff?

Really documented.

So full cell pack, like 18 months after we landed.

I mean, it was literally almost day one strategy, you know, like post-it, no out.

What are we doing?

You know, there's a very good mate of mine who was the people director, Rita Brockles, who was in, and the two of us and Steve, and we mapped out what the strategy looked like.

And it was, you know, cell pack needs to be ready two years in, and then out having the conversations.

I mean, it was really, really meticulously kind of laid out.

I mean, of course, it did not run entirely.

It's planned.

Of course, of course not.

But just setting that intention.

Oh, it was yeah, yeah.

Speak to so many entrepreneurs, and it and very few actually have that.

A few do.

A few are very, very clear.

And from day one, we're selling this in five years, ten years, whatever.

And every quarter, every month, it's like, are we on track towards this, this exit and this value that we want to have?

Most don't, though.

No, I agree.

Most most don't.

But I think it's the learning from the first time around.

And also, um, I guess there's also, you know, back to the earlier point about the family.

There's a competition bit, you know, of the kids.

I'm the eldest, none of us had had an exit, and I'm like, oh, you know, I've got I won't be the first.

Can't be the first.

Uh and it's just ludicrous.

Um, we're all actually in crit while we're competitive, we're all very supportive of one another.

And we'll often kind of lean in in various ways.

But um, yeah, there's definitely a bit with me thinking of it.

There was a bit of extra energy for you to get out of the way.

I'm the eldest here.

Better look lively.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I don't know if you've ever heard of um some of the stuff that goes on in big corporates like Amazon.

I just think it's really smart.

So Amazon, I understand, I read a book a while ago.

They said they if they're building a project, they want to release you know something, a new product or something, they will often write the press release.

This, you know, it's as if it's as if it's already happened.

I love that.

I think I read about it when they did Amazon Prime, yeah.

And it was, this is what it is, this is the customers, this is the value, uh, you know, to the press, literally in the format that you they would issue a formal press release.

They say, That's it, there's the date on the press release.

So if that has to happen three years from today, what you know, this press release goes out, what do we have to do today, this week, this quarter, this month?

And I think that's really good.

You just focus on the target.

And whether you miss it by six months or a year, at least you won't be, you shouldn't be too far away.

You're constantly course correcting towards this single goal.

I can't tell you how much I love that and how much it's going to be adopted in short order.

There you go.

Thanks, Jeff.

Not my idea.

It's to be a good idea.

It seems to have done quite a claim to it.

It's mine, it's my idea.

Right.

So, and then the the the big story, and you sort of alluded to it a moment ago, was you you you had a five-year plan, and I mean there was I read somewhere, it was that a thousand days.

So we we moved very, very quickly in way of that uh in way of that.

From the time you said, right, we're gonna build, we're gonna scale, and we're gonna exit.

Yeah, yeah.

It was rapid.

I think it was 1042.

Uh, but uh obviously thousands better.

That's round a number.

Uh round round a number.

And so it was it was really, really intentional.

It was get that first outcome-based client in healthcare, over-service them, yeah, uh, and case study the backside out of it.

Uh and chase What do you mean case study them?

Just use that customer as a case study to not get other clients.

As soon as you land, right, start creating a bit to your point about the Bezos approach, yeah, start creating the narrative around the project within four weeks.

What are we doing?

How are we doing it?

So we can start to land some of that from a social media perspective and share.

Um, and you know, my policy there was we'll apologize later.

Uh, and I do it upset the comms teams no end repeatedly until we, you know, you can only push these things so far.

But I thought I'll push it for the first year and then we'll play the game in year two.

Right.

Uh but it meant that, you know, as we land that first outcome, that that outcome ended up being a 10 million pounds worth of work for us over three-year period.

Right.

It was 154k that first gig.

Um, and within three months of landing that, we then land Public Health England.

Um, and so it was just a snowball.

So you were just using that to like showcase your work.

This is a success we're having.

This is all we were doing.

Just send out to the world, this is what we're doing.

So other people in that space will say, Wow, you can do that for us.

Very much centered around the impact that we were making for them.

And we were also applying for awards on their behalf, but it was all way before everyone else was doing this.

It was much more.

Let's get that side, showcase them, you know, have them on the stage, getting the award.

Um, but it it was just your customer's the hero, not you.

Totally.

Yeah.

Um, and so it was uh it was very, very intentional.

Really like that.

This idea of using case studies, it's often depending, especially in consulting businesses, it's quite hard to articulate exactly what you do, or all of us in my business and your business, because you can say you kind of elevator pitch, you're 30 seconds, but it's never going to do justice because the impact, and often it's quite quite complex.

There's a lot of moving parts in that case studies the way you do it, aren't they?

Just say this is an example, this is what we do, this is the transformation, this is the value we added.

And everyone, so people people for whom it's not relevant, they go, Oh, it's fine, nothing to do with you.

Yeah, not really.

But for that 10% or whatever it is, they say that's exactly what we need right now because they can see through storytelling.

Uh totally.

Exactly.

And that's you fit the nail on the head, actually.

So if I think about uh Grafter now, we don't do case studies, we we tell a story, yeah.

Uh, and the power of that is is second to none.

But also we're very lucky, or we're good at what we do because our clients are very happy to jump on the stage and explain exactly what we've done for them.

Yeah.

Uh and so you know, that makes the sales job a hell of a lot easier because nine times out of ten, you know, most companies struggle to get a client to do a reference call, let alone hop on the stage and tell a story.

So um, yeah, that but but again, that was very intentional uh from how we operate it.

That's so good.

There's no better marketing story than your own customers and clients saying it with some passion.

I think we should all just be, you know, not everyone wants to, not everyone wants to be public about certain things, depending on what it is, what your service is, but you're also gonna get some people that are real advocates, they're more than happy to share their their experience.

And and you can say all day long how wonderful you are, and I'll sort of say, Well, course you'll say that.

But if your client says it, yeah, absolutely and the client got what I want in the future, they're not you're not gonna and then you go and you know, the the the the new prospective customer will speak to that if you assuming everyone's happy to do that.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

And I say it that they when when you have your own customers as your sales force, yeah, you know that you're winning.

Oh, totally agree at that stage, totally agree.

Amazing.

So again, I I really get the sense, and I know that from what you said.

You were just super intentional.

We got you had it, you had an end goal in in mind, you had dates and you knew what it you wanted to do.

Like, did you have uh like an exit value baked into that?

So we had probably nine months before, and maybe six months before, no, probably nine.

We went out and we did a proper uh valuation.

So we had an independent do the valuation, 10 grand's worth of cost.

Right.

Uh it was, you know, it was a and we're going back in Lumbria in of years now.

So it was based on transactions that had happened.

Yeah, and you know, it was a robust, thorough look.

And so we knew what the business was worth.

Um the one thing we we hadn't legislated for, um, but went in our favour was if you're a consultancy building services for government and healthcare and a pandemic lands, um, you're going to write a big number that you hadn't planned on writing, but also you're suddenly gonna be um in the spotlight in a way that you know we hadn't been um either.

And so at the back end of 2019, we had our first approach.

Um, and I think they were surprised that you know they approached saying we want to have a conversation.

This unsolicited, they just reached out completely unsolicited, but they wanted to make an acquisition in the healthcare consultancy space.

Probably 60% of our number was that at that time.

Yeah.

Um and as they approached us, they said, you know, you're you're probably not gonna have this information, but this is what we'd want to have a look at.

I said, actually, we've got a cell pack.

So, you know, we were in a really you'd already created LS support.

So we were in a really strong uh position around that.

Um, but but then as November rolled rolled round to 2020, of course the world went mental.

Yeah, um, and um we were asked in uh March might have been April time to build the the country the national solution for COVID-19, the digital solution.

So we take a call on a Sunday night from the chief clinical information officer who says, Can you mobilize this service in seven days?

Um, and normally that service would take six months to do the service design.

So, you know, we're building a service 24 hours a day, split shift, we're all um on a bloody lockdown.

I was also shielding, some really asthmatic.

Um, and we're going through the sale of the business.

I mean, it was completely bonkers that year.

Insane, but great crack.

Um, but but insane mainly.

You look back fondly, I don't know.

I'm sure at the time it was stressful.

It was so dysfunctional.

Uh, but um, and and and what what had happened was the approach we'd had in November, we'd said thank you, but no.

Uh we then find ourselves working with um a very influential VC in the healthcare world.

Uh, they make uh make an an approach.

Um, and then I thought, well, we might as well have three at the table here.

So then we were into three, and then we went through that kind of heads of terms and exclusivity period during the course of 2020.

But you know, we're in lockdown, you haven't like those are Zoom calls and things, presumably.

Well, I haven't even met the buyers or my lawyer in person until a year after the transaction.

That's wild.

So literally, we I think we had one distance walk.

Um, it's a crazy period where you're allowed out for an hour or something.

Um, and um yeah, so that that but but not, you know, genuinely had not met.

And of course, lawyers, you know, it was all still physically signed.

Yes, of course, we had the technology for DocuSign, but it was independent witness, it was sign.

And so the lawyers were scrabbling a little bit on how do we do this transaction, you know, remotely.

Yeah, well, it had I recorded all this happened obviously quickly, the whole COVID in lockdown.

And what I found is some organizations were quite well organized anyway, but you know, everyone had laptops and digital stuff people were working from, and DocuSign was uh was commonplace, and others had never used it before.

And and depending on what lawyer or what accountant or whatever you were dealing with, you you could be lucky or unlucky.

But also with the independent witness, that we had the ask on the independent witness at the time.

We were locked down, so we there was no independent witness, not unless I was trying to drag a postman in.

Do you know what I mean?

It was it.

So sign that, mate.

Don't worry, don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it, just get in here.

Yeah, uh, but it it was uh yeah, it was random.

The whole process was was random for sure.

I mean, those sort of sale transactions, the chaotic anyway, that's just so stressful and lots of things going on.

But you're doing it, and obviously looking bad, a number of people must have done that and gone through it.

You were certainly one of them during that crazy period of all our lives, only a few years ago.

Uh yeah, it must have just been mad.

Are you sort of just on it 24 hours a day pretty much?

Very very little sleep um because we were running 24-7.

Yeah.

And I also um, you know, I I get excited by the fact we're building national bloody service.

Cool.

So then you're leaning and save the country.

Yeah, I mean, and and yeah, they of course the hero mentality loved all that.

Uh so there was that, yeah, shielding and uh and and negotiating and trying to run the business, but also because we sold to a listed company, we we had to keep it um we had to have members of my management team under a legal contract to even share the information.

Yeah, it was wild.

There's a lot going on in that story.

Just tell me a little bit more about the the sale process.

So you had you ended up having that there was some competitive tension.

You had like three serious buyers in place.

So, what was your process uh in terms of selecting them, working with them?

I can talk about that pretty extensively, actually.

So I'm a massive advocate of a uh of a technique called Wardley mapping, uh, which is developed by Simon Wardley many years ago.

And and it allows you to create situational awareness.

Uh, and that can be the use cases for this are wide and varied.

I learned this 15 years ago working in government when we were trying to map um government contracts and duplication and triplication.

Um, but the the principles of of waterly mapping can be applied to loads of different things, and so what I actually did was I I I mapped the three offers based on the cultural fit, based on the financial bit, but also uh based um on the the the fit for me personally uh as the owner of the business.

And so um we went I went through a process really of of physically mapping them out and and working that working that through.

And we didn't go for the highest bidder, um, and we also didn't go for the company I actually wanted to go and work for, uh, which is a really interesting decision-making process when you know yourself it's not who you want to work for, um, but it is the best fit for the team uh and is a bloody hard decision to make.

That's super interesting.

I've never heard that before.

That whole process is you uh adopted that, adhered to it, and it came up with something that I guess you weren't really expecting.

When you have your three in front of you, you think, well, I just feel uh this one is the one I really want.

And that's and you've got an alternative response.

And so the the kind of gut feel uh for me around where I wanted to go.

Um the that yeah, the highest bidder, uh, but but there was a really interesting process to go through because it does allow you to be completely objective based on the information you have at that time.

And we all know when you go through a sale process, what you're told during the process and what happens five minutes later can often feel uh uh distinctly different.

However, you can only work on the information you know you have.

And I would always encourage uh founders to as much DD on you know a potential acquirer as they're as they're doing on you.

I agree.

Uh but um yeah, it's a it's a cracking process that to uh to to have a look and and help decision making and to take.

That's great.

If you if if there's a process whereby you can create objectivity, that's the hardest thing because you're in it, your it's personal.

Uh totally and it can be just I just don't like the colour of his tie or whatever.

You know, I don't know.

So we can we're sort of wrapped up in personal decisions and just objectivity is really important, just to say.

Really important.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

Well, I'll check that out later.

I'll probably put a link to that in the show notes here because others will find that at useful.

Yeah, and and Simon, Simon was an advisor to my last business, Simon Wardley.

Um, but you know, he one of the sharpest people I've ever met in my life.

And where this came from was he designed the concept of Wardley mapping because he believed when business owners were writing a strategy, they were doing it from a scientific perspective rather than blocking it out of the sky.

And so he created a map uh and a way of actually understanding the environment that you're in, the competition, what's going on, what's evolving.

Uh, and it's it's that uh that tool 15 years later that I I use in so many different ways.

But it's you're still using it now.

I still use it now.

We use it for the strategy setting for Grafter.

Um, so but also as we are looking at you know um potential buyers for companies we're working with, we would still compare and use it as a uh as a as a model.

It's brilliant.

Very good.

So you come out the other side, close the deal.

Yep.

Now that was when?

Uh what year?

Uh 2020.

Oh, you did that quickly, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All this stuff got on was still proper lockdown time, isn't it?

2020.

Alan, everything moves, everything moves pretty quickly.

I have two speeds, rapid and sleeping.

Uh so yeah.

I'm getting that.

I thought that when I first met you, but I I know it for sure now.

The uh it moved really quickly.

You achieved your outcomes.

Any thoughts now reflecting back if you were to be knowing having come out the other side of it, if you were to advise yourself in 2019, would you have done anything differently?

What would you have said to yourself knowing where you are today?

That's a great question.

So I'll start by saying I would do the same deal.

Right.

Um To the same buyer.

To the same buyer.

Yeah.

Uh and and I I think that is that has to be proof that it was the right.

Yeah.

And and loads of it did not go to plan.

Yeah.

Uh, but I would still say that it's the deal that I would do.

Um, what I would say to me is strap in emotionally because it's going to blow your mind how frustrating that DD is.

Uh, and that's nothing compared to how things will change when you move into the earnout period.

And so it it's and all, you know, some of us are just not designed to have a bloody boss.

Yeah.

Uh, and I feel for him as much as, you know, I'm not sure he felt much for me, actually.

Uh, but but I I'm a pain in the arse.

If it's probably his worst nightmare as well, having you working for him.

I would say so, uh, without a shadow of a doubt.

I mean that with respect.

I I take that as a compliment, mate.

Uh I've been happily unemployable for donkeys.

And I I um yeah, I I I wasn't I wasn't easy to handle.

How long was there an hour?

18 months.

I mean, that's not that long.

It felt like a friggin' lifetime.

Uh but three-year lockout uh of the market, so couldn't go and build again.

Um, but um yeah, it felt long.

Okay.

That's so that that was that's your point.

Do do your diligence, prepare, strap in, it is gonna be a rocky rock.

Yeah.

You can't, I mean, and it's the emotional bit.

You can't prepare yourself for anyone to do.

You can you can have a plan, you know, you can be intentional, but like, you know, when someone's ranking the chain and you're thinking, oh my god, I may kill you, uh, it's it's hard going.

Um you've done your sales pack way in advance anyway, talking about this due diligence thing that they were doing on it, you're pretty prepared as opposed to just some companies, as you know, say, You want what?

I haven't got that.

I'd have to start now.

No, we we were really you were ready to go, and even then it was really a but but I think the bit that still threw me with that DD was the multiple lenses financially that they look at the business.

I was like, whoa, I understood the business in a different way, and I've been running the bloody thing for years.

Uh so I think that that threw me.

Um, and I'm very people-centric, and like all the conversation being about finance, it I just emotionally found that hard going.

I'm like, but I care deeply about the team, and and I, you know, I did and I do, and half of them at a bloody wedding a couple of years ago.

So we're all close, and you know, some of them working at the Grafter now, and so that mattered to me a lot, and I found it hard going that that didn't seem to matter as much as we went through.

Um, but you know, you you learn more being this side of the fence now.

Of course, it's financial.

Uh, and yes, there is a nod to the people and the culture and the integration, but I barely talked to a founder who has been acquired who goes, it was a cracking integration, everything was smooth.

We were laughing about this yesterday because one of my exited founders is this is the area of expertise, and I'm like, we need to double down on this because everyone fucks it up.

So, you know, we need a really clear service around integration and the people and the culture and how that happens, and that will be something we will explore building.

But um, it's sure it's a real value ad because if the the culture and the environment is created by the acquirer, which are by definition larger companies, they've got such an incredible talent.

That's what they bought.

That that those founders, that creativity, that ambition, if you can harness that and give them a bit of freedom because they're never gonna be a nine to five and report to the boss.

But that's the bit.

Yeah, but that and and it is hard buying entrepreneurs, buying businesses, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.

You know, it's gotta be a you know, wear it loosely.

The more it's like a stress ball, the more you try and grab hold of me, the more I'm disappearing round the corner.

Uh, and it's like, you know, what what are you doing?

Uh just reminds me of my parents in my younger years.

Exactly.

So uh husband ever been able to control you, so they didn't.

No, no, no, no, definitely not.

It's publicly quoted, it was an eight-figure exit.

Yep.

Did you treat yourself?

Did you buy anything nice?

I did.

Um, I did.

I bought a couple of things actually, not instantly.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

So only because I was a bit nervous, it was going to be completely ludicrous.

So I thought, hold fire.

Yeah.

Um, so we're still driving around in this absolutely Shagdat Mazda that cost me five grand when I sold the business.

And my business.

Business partner, he rolls into he rolls up to my house in this 200 grand murk.

I don't couldn't even tell you what it was.

It was beautiful, like the Batmobile, about half an hour after the deal happened.

Um, I waited nine months and got a Porsche GTS that only lasted six months because I got nine points, and I was like, this friggin' dangerous for this.

This friggin' thing's going back.

Um, and then we bought a nice house in the country, and I wondered if I could be sufficiently mature and adult to live in the country.

Uh, and um we rented that out last year.

So we failed at that particular one.

I felt living in the country.

I failed, I think maybe we're a decade or two early for that little adventure.

Uh I mean the house is beautiful, dream house.

I'm sure.

But um, yes, maybe I just wasn't dream tenant.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just find that that all quite interesting as well.

It's because did you find it an anticlimax in any way?

Just deal closes and it's all done.

Or were you through?

Were you opening champagne and just jumping up and down?

It's just I I see a lot different outcomes from people.

Some I found it, uh, it blew my mind.

Um I struggled quite a lot with the people aspect, the team aspect is the bit that I I can still feel emotional about now.

Yeah.

Uh not for you know, not for for any reason other than the fact that I was very close to the team.

Um and did I find it an anti-climax?

No, I don't think so.

It more like a hamster wheel.

I kind of finished the deal and then you're straight on to chasing a number and there's no break.

I was like, this is nuts.

So we're in your earnout now.

Straight into the earnout, but also after the back end of that year, you know, the it wasn't a normal year anyway, and you're straight into earnout.

Um, so no, I I think I was um I was probably just knackered, yeah, uh, if I'm if I'm totally honest.

Right.

Yeah.

So you went through the earnout.

Yeah.

You live you showed up, did your thing with your boss.

With my boss.

18 months, and then that was 18 months and a day, you've gone.

Yeah.

It was actually.

Yeah.

Thought it might be.

It was 18 months and an hour, I think.

But uh, yes, it was.

And um, and I think that was probably best all round.

Yeah, for everyone.

Oh, for sure.

Uh, but um, you know, it's in a in a way a shame, uh, because they, to your earlier point, you know, the acquisitions they did with really, really capable entrepreneurial founders, every one of them went, uh, not one of them was handled well.

And so therefore, you know, that has a it has an impact because, you know, the teams love, well, normally love the founder.

And so impact on the people's side, um, and their strategy topped and changed a wee bit and listed company and impact on share price and all the rest of it.

But it's an interest just as I'm thinking, it's an interesting dynamic, this whole thing, because you think about your team, people in my company, by definition, we're you know, we're we're smaller businesses, we're not massive listed companies.

And people go and work for those companies by choice.

You could go and work for a huge multinational conglomerate and you choose not to for a more scrappy boutique entrepreneurial type business.

And then they find themselves, through no choice of their own, working for the very companies that they never set out to work for in the first place.

So I'm guessing a number of them eventually drift off and say, I don't want to work in a business.

I like this smaller.

Well, I think there's that.

And I think there's also you're one of a, you know, a cog, aren't you, in the process.

But but also um, yeah, I think the you know, the the culture that you get with an SME uh versus, you know, five, six, seven hundred person, it's just it's a completely different prop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's definitely something in that.

There's some sort of um, I don't know if you call it, in proper integration in terms of the founder entrepreneur person.

If you can harness them and make it interesting for them to stay around, they can just drive so much value into the larger company.

And same with the teams as well.

And so much business, because in back to where we started, but every founder has to be LSL.

So, you know, you harness them the right way on that.

I mean, it doesn't mean that.

They've got another story to tell.

They they're now representing this huge company, probably lots of different divisions, departments that they can get their teeth into.

It's just such a shame.

And so all 100% of the companies that they acquired, all the founders have I think one or two are still there.

But but most of just oh, yeah, yeah, most have have been and gone.

Interesting.

So then you pause for a breath, probably for half a day or something.

And then I want to talk about I'm really excited to talk about the grafter.

But always eight scientists talk about the grafter.

So Right, tell me tell me, assume the audience doesn't know anything about the grafter.

Let's go back to the beginning.

What was the idea?

How do you get started?

What does it do?

Hi, just a quick pause.

If you're getting value from this episode, I'd really appreciate it if you could hit subscribe and leave a rating or a review.

It's honestly the best way to support the show, to help more people find it, and to make sure that future episodes get even better based on your feedback.

Thanks for being here, and now back to the show.

So after um after selling different, I initially thought I'll take six months off, ended up taking three um and didn't want to go and build another agency, like the last one that would have been too easy, but also I wanted to solve a problem that I had had.

So, yes, I had the cell pack nailed down, but I didn't have that sounding board who could support me emotionally through that, and I didn't have the playbook that would help me go through all of that process, and so that's really what the Grafter was all about.

So initially um I didn't plan to launch another company, I wanted to see if I can build a service, and I wanted to go all the way back, build the actual service myself, and then take it to market and see if there was interest.

My problem is me.

Uh, so uh as soon as I then get some interest, I'm like, ah fuck, let's go.

This is a business.

And so um approached 42 people that I thought would be interested in the service.

I think 20 or 21 said, yeah, I'm game for it.

And I was like, oh, well, we're we're launching, then aren't we?

We're in business now.

We've got a company.

Let's go.

Um, and so uh fast forward to now, um, what we basically do is we've developed a business diagnostic that allows us to assess the maturity of a business, but also the founder and the management team.

So we would get in the room ideally, uh, and we would bring an exiter, so a multi-exited founder.

So we have 10 of those working at the grafter, um, into that session.

Uh, and we would work with a founder and management team, and we would have a look at every part of the business.

And these things can take three hours and they can take eight, uh, depending on the complexity.

And we would get a maturity rating uh around each part, but we'd also be asking for evidence.

The evidence is the statements that have been made.

Um, and we would be building up a picture of what's working well, where are the risks, what's keeping them awake at night, but also what opportunities are they leaving on the table?

Because the exited founder in the room has worked in their sector and has been in the trenches and has, you know, grown, scaled, and exited a business.

Yeah.

And so we start all engagements with that.

And from there we can be really intentional about uh this is how we can help.

And it's for example, on the growth side, and the strategy is making an acquisition of a competitor, um, and we'd put a team in to help do that, or it's taking, you know, taking the service and landing it in a different geographical location, or it is uh actually achieving product market fit, um, or it may well be, you know, they're a SaaS-based company and the platform was built a few years ago and it needs recutting.

What whatever it is, uh, we can um help lean in with an exited founder, and we can also uh plug, often plug the ecosystem to help with a technical rebuild or other bits and pieces.

So in the last uh 38 months, we have taken 50 companies through this methodology.

Uh we have then uh sold five businesses, um, seven and eight figures.

Wow.

We've got another two that were in the process of selling.

We've done one 44 million non-dilutive raise, we've done one acquisition in a 10-day period, seven figure acquisition.

Uh, and then absolutely ridiculous.

Um you really move fast, there's no question.

And and I think that that one was me trying to prove something to this business owner because every lawyer had turned him down.

He had to make the acquisition because he needed access to a government framework for bidding for something else.

And so there was no time.

It was can you do it or can you not?

Uh so we used the business diagnostic to do the first round of legal DD, and then we found found a lawyer who was prepared to uh build out the SPA through the August bank holiday, uh, round the clock on a 10-day period.

So uh it was yeah, and and then we've we've also doubled the revenue of 12 companies in a 12-month period.

Uh, and they are in in the areas where we're we're you know have the most domain expertise, which is healthcare, uh professional services, and uh SaaS.

Right.

So the the the profile of the the founder or the company that you look for or would be a great fit is what so in those sectors, but they're beginning to think we're gonna plan an exit.

It might not be today or tomorrow, but we need to get on that track.

Yeah, you're right.

That's exactly.

So our ICP is three to 30 mil turnover, yeah, three to five years out, right?

Coachable, yeah.

Um, and nice people, preferably up for a bit of banter.

Yeah.

Um, and and where we started was healthcare, SaaS, and uh professional services, but we are much wider than that now.

So we're working with businesses in the alcohol beverages, uh in the uh B B2C space from a uh testing, um, from a healthcare perspective, um, office refit.

I mean, you name it, we're kind of all over the place.

What I really like about as well is your exited founders, entrepreneurs, multi-exited.

Yeah.

They've been in the trenches, they've done it.

I mean, we're all surrounded by, and God bless them, but consultants and people advising you who've never done it.

And I think that's the bit that um it always makes me kind of apprehensive.

Um, because, you know, for for me, this service has to be the person that I wanted when I was selling.

And so you've got to have been through that process emotionally as well.

You know, one of the exoters, James, has built and sold a couple of um consultancies.

He's a qualified psychologist.

So, you know, his skill set around understanding the people side, the cultural bit, the integration, you know, is just an absolute game changer uh in way of um how he would approach some of this stuff.

It's not, you know, I heard us described as um, you know, co corporate corporate finance, um, but with empathy.

Uh and I said, no, I'm not sure we use spreadsheets as much as that.

Uh but I'll take the rest of it.

So um yeah, it's uh we we we don't Demon A with a soul.

Yeah, we don't neatly fit into any box, uh, which is uh which is kind of the plan.

Yeah, I love that.

And I think, and particularly having spoken to you know dozens, hundreds over the years, and you've just explained it, particularly when you get in the weeds on the transaction deal, and that can go on.

I mean, you were fast, but these can go on for six months sometimes, and it's brutal, and it takes a toll mentally, and physically and everything else.

Yeah, you have someone on your team, especially someone like that who's got sort of psychological qualifications and and expertise, who's probably coaching and guiding you through some of those really, really tough moments.

It's invaluable.

Yeah, it is uh it is invaluable.

And and the you know, the the bit that we what we signed a week ago is that we will stop at the point of uh exit prep.

Um, and so you know, we will not manage transactions going forward.

So we signed a uh a global partnership with an MA firm in the US, uh, and exit wise will pick up the mantle from there, uh, and they will actually run the transaction.

Okay.

Uh and they are, you know, heavily linked into investment bankers in the US.

But also, as we know, um, you know, the UK is not particularly buoyant at the minute from a liquidity, so having US buyers um, and we know that there's a plenty of roll-up activity happening, um, and it's either coming in from UAE or from the US.

Yeah.

And so unsurprisingly, we'll be opening up shop in UAE in Q2 as well.

But um trip to Dubai for you coming up.

I mean, I need one actually, I need a bit of sun, mate, to be honest.

Uh you were very kind.

You you invited me along to one of your events uh last autumn, can't remember something sometime.

Brilliant, great, great, you know, showed up, packed room, you know, full of very and you know, and drinks afterwards, really kind of great networking, just having just random people that I bumped into and having really good conversations, still connected with a few of them.

And uh tell us more about your events and and also how I mean I don't know the circumstances.

Are you people are tuning into this and they're just sort of you know fitting that kind of profile?

Yeah, yeah.

Can they get involved somehow?

200%.

So the Grafter community is uh about 200 entrepreneurs.

Um, and we we tend to have them in the community from kind of one to 30 mil.

Yeah.

Um, and it's all about getting people in the room together three or four times a year.

Um, but also we have a number of master classes that run during the course of the year.

Um, and the the kind of business model for us is not to try and monetize that part of the process, that's about giving some giving something back, creating that environment.

You know, this community have written two million of new business between them in the last 12 months.

Uh, so our role in that is putting them together.

Um, but you know, even today, there's there's five people last year who got jobs through things being posted in their community.

Um, and you know, some somebody's kid got some um work experience, and he said room service, then that was a different, I don't know where that jumped in from.

Um, but but there's that that community has a a life of its own.

We we facilitate three or four of those.

Um, and for for me, that is very much um, I guess it's it's a stepping stone into, you know, if they are at in our ICP and want to engage with having an exertier-led service, that's absolutely something that we can uh we can do.

Sure.

Um but it's it it's also great crack.

I mean great crack, you but you support the community.

You get a couple of hundred people or whatever showing up.

The event I went to, you I can't remember, you three or four people just tell their story.

And I just they're fascinating.

It's like a mini version of this conversation now.

People go through that, tell you all the ups and downs and the challenges, and the rest of the room is just one, three, five, ten years behind them.

Yeah.

So they want to hear it from someone who's again been in the trenches and sort of lived that that life as opposed to someone else.

So yeah, a really just positive, I thought really positive, vibrant community.

Yeah, everyone sharing and helping, helping each other.

And other I I just think, you know, I work in a kind of entrepreneurial community, have done for years.

And honestly, this even this podcast is designed as a resource for entrepreneurs having conversations with you because there's someone who's out there who's a year or two behind you on the on the journey thing, yeah, that's that's really interesting over time.

And it's like you don't have none of us ever have to start your business and work 18 hours a day and take risks.

You can just go and get a job somewhere else.

But you choose to how awful would that be the line?

Terrible, right?

But you choose to, you're sort of masochist or whatever.

And so I've always felt as felt there's a sense of kind of camaraderie, like a brotherhood and sisterhood of people because they say, I know what it's like.

You know, and someone's having the worst day of their life or the best clients, just five of them or something.

You know, I was there last year.

You know, it's I just find it really positive, and and your community does that super well.

We we had even this week, we had uh somebody in the community who's done a shout out and said it's all gone horribly, sets up.

Yeah, uh, and I'm in urgent need of either accessing some investment or you know, having somebody on the end of the phone to just talk this stuff through.

And you've got people leaning in, making recommendations, uh, you know, useful recommendations of people that can negotiate with HMRC and other bits and pieces uh to help.

And it's like, you know, that is what the community has been built for.

If so, someone's listening to this, is it there's well, I'll post a link in the show notes.

If someone gets to get it, is what's the website?

So it's thegrafter.com, uh th e grafter.com, um, and they will be able to find information about the community um and uh services and boatloads of stories from clients.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Okay, so so they can get in touch with you directly.

Fantastic.

Conscious of your time, and I know you're a busy woman and you're onto the next thing now, moving fast as always.

Just the last couple of questions as as we wrap up.

Um, have you over the years, are you someone that's ever kind of leaned on resources?

Do you read books?

Are there any particular things that you found valuable in your own entrepreneurial journey?

Oh my god.

How long have we got?

Um, so for for me personally, um I have had coaching and mentoring for years.

Um, and so I will pull that in.

I pulled in mentoring around certain skills that I wanted to hone.

Public speaking was one, was terrified for a long period of time.

You're very good at it, if I may say so.

Years and years of um wanting to puke on stage, uh forcing myself through it.

Um, so coaching and mentoring.

Um, I and I have a coach now.

I I don't have a coach on the business side, I have a coach on the polar opposite.

Um, so I have a coach to focus on keeping me.

Um how do I phrase this?

My my I I'm incredibly driven.

So I have a coach to focus on getting me switched off.

Uh and my totally my focus, my my three words for the year are peace of mind.

Uh, and so you know, my coach is called Phil, he's incredible.

Um, and uh he is the polar opposite of normal coaching.

It's not what have you done, how you're doing it.

It's like you bet, you know, you almost have not done that.

Have you been meditating?

Yeah, you know, it it is the is the it's the total role reverse.

But that's that's what I need.

Fantastic.

That's great.

And I guess the other bit for me, avid reader, um, and but but even if I think about you know books and reading, a lot of that is in the uh mindset space, um, and uh just being I guess aware of um my capacity, and I'm much more aware of that the older I get, I think.

You know, the energy is definitely still there, but the head can run away with it.

It's like the body is thinking Jesus, can you just give us a friggin' break?

Uh and I felt I felt that having been in the US last week, jet lagged, and you know, we did intense long days and recording content and meeting clients, and I mean, looking at my whoop data, I mean I was barely alive.

So uh yeah, I mean it's pretty brutal.

Yeah, that's a wake-up goal when you look at the data.

It was a shocker.

Uh so yeah, it was calm now, just deep, deep breath.

Attempting you get yeah, attempting to be calm.

Very, very, very good.

Um, last question for you.

One I I do always ask, now you somebody, you you know, you've you've clearly you've been you've enjoyed great success, you've had a big exit, you've you know, you you you bought the house, you bought the car, you did all those things.

And just linking it to what you just said about peace of mind and and and you know getting your headspace right as well.

I'm always intrigued, you know, I run a wealth management company.

Um, what's your personal definition of true wealth?

So that's a great question.

And I'll tell you my definition is um I am probably the largest fan of that Sahil Bloom book, The Five Types of Wealth.

No well.

Uh and for me, um it isn't about that number.

It is absolutely about family, friends, time, team present.

Um, it's really easy to say all of this, because you're right, I have had that exit, and I was desperate for that financial freedom.

Um, and I'm desperate for freedom full stop because I have a serious problem with anyone trying to control me.

Um but but I think it's um It's it's being able to do the stuff that you want to do and being able to rock up for stuff that's actually important.

Uh and I I do uh spend a reasonable period of time on a weekly and a monthly assessing how I'm spending my time as well.

You do it, you go back in the state.

Yeah, I do to make make sure that it's actually on the right stuff.

Because given half a chance, you know, this sort of workaholic tendency will I love it.

And so it's dead easy to and it's the perfect excuse building another company.

But it's like, hold up a second, you know, that was not the plan when you jumped into it.

So I do have to constantly extract myself back.

Yeah, you've got to course correct and remind yourself on an hourly basis.

This idea, you know, you your your definition of true wealth is that time, space, freedom, all those things.

Amazing, perfect, well said.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Really enjoyed this conversation.

It moved really quickly.

There's a lot going on.

Love to catch up with you again at another time.

But for now, Rachel, thank you so much.

Absolutely my pleasure.

Thank you very much.

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