Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course language and adult themes.

This podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian.

On the morning of Good Friday, April eighteen, twenty twenty five, one week before the release two subscribers of this episode number thirty two in the Bromwin series.

I flew to Sydney and went straight to Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire.

This was my third visit to their home in a place that Andy proudly refers to as God's Country.

We've caught up multiple times elsewhere Good I I.

We spoke about a range of things.

The evidence from the inquest was on Andy's mind because he was rehearing it in these in Quest episodes.

He cannot understand why so much evidence went missing.

Here is one example.

Andy had numerous conversations with the detective Graham discin back in nineteen ninety three, but police running sheets documenting the concerns that Andy was raising with Balano detectives in nineteen ninety three appear to be missing from the record.

However, a formal document which purports to particularize a conversation between Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid and Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three has survived and forms part of the evidentiary record.

It's the document that paints John in a positive light while depicting Bromwin as an unstable fantasist.

Meghan emphatically denies saying the things attributed to her in that document.

Meanwhile, other relevant evidence appears to have completely disappeared.

Where is all the information and the running shoots path?

The stuff's missing?

Will we ever know the truth?

During the inquest they were still getting documents Bromman's letters.

That stuff was still being made available at a late stage of the actual five days of hearings, and this was material that Discin had originally received from John.

Nothing adds up.

This is going to be the last episode for some weeks.

Andy and Michelle have headed overseas for a long planned holiday and there's a good prospect will catch up somewhere, perhaps in the highlands of Scotland.

At the end of this episode, my very good friend and colleague Matt Condon will share news about his upcoming podcast series called The Gangster's Ghost.

It will start coming out in May twenty twenty five, when the weekly production of the Bromwin series is on pause or a couple of months.

What we'll do then is have a season break.

When you get back, you're expecting to be able to sit down with senior police.

Yep, yes, I'm hoping to be able to go and have a do.

Briefing with them, find out where we're at.

That sounds promising.

We reflected on the fact that fourteen months earlier, in the same comfortable chairs in their lounge room, we recorded our first interviews together.

But back then we are not aware of the evidence of Judy Singh, of the potential significance of Illawong, the glaring inconsistencies in John's versions, and the gaping holes in investigations by police.

I didn't think we'd still be talking about this and planning further episodes more than a year later.

No, it's incredible, isn't it.

It's not tangible, but to me, it feels as if there's been some change, potentially on the verge.

Of a breakthrough.

Feels like it, doesn't it.

There are several more leads that I want to develop in the podcast, and there's also George Radmore's cold case review and further evidence that came to light through that.

It is also important, in my view to investigate and report in this podcast how the then lawyers in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore and then it is in the head office in Sydney can have come to the view that there was not enough evidence.

That was a view contrary to the unequivocal finding of the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milvanovitch, and you'll hear his detailed reasons near the end of this episode.

Karl's judgment looks right, and the evidence in our view has always been damning in relation to just one person.

But we can do that when you get back.

Sounds like a plan.

That's good.

The whole object of this is finding the truth, the truth about what happened to Brohman, whatever that may be.

Now, the fact that it's sort of.

Narrowed itself down a path where it doesn't look like anything else could have happened except for one thing, well, that's just the way it is.

Now.

Let's return to the inquest.

It's day four.

Matt Fordham is revisiting the written statement of Jody's mother, Jennifer Mason and how she had told police that John left the two girls with Jennifer's mother in law, Joan Mason, and that when John returned, he asked Jennifer to look after them for a fortnight.

Matt Fordham asked, Jody.

Does it surprise you that someone with the parenting schools of your father would not plan ahead for the childcare?

Well, yes, you know you would normally plan ahead, but I mean didn't have time really, he just came back.

So, ma'am, I'll read out some further parts of your mother's statement.

I came home one day from shopping in nineteen ninety three and my mother in law, Brad's mother, said, you've got two visitors out in the backyard.

Both of the children were dressed in pajamas.

Joan told me that John Winfield had turned up about an hour earlier and asked if he could leave the kids at my house.

There were no clothes for the children that John brought.

It was about an hour after that when John arrived.

I said to him something like what's going on?

John said, I've got a big job on and nobody to look after the kids.

Can you look after them?

For about two weeks I'll pay you.

I said, where's Bromwind.

John said she's gone off with a boyfriend.

I said, I can't look after them, You'll have to find someone else.

I'm in the process of packing and moving.

I remember thinking at the time it was strange he hadn't brought any clothing for the children.

It wasn't his normal character.

He usually liked to be organized.

I found out later through Jody that Bromward had gone missing from Lennox Head.

Ma'am, do you know apart from the registration of the car, do you know anywhere else that Jonathan may have gone and the hours around lunchtime on that day?

No, I don't.

Matt Fordham then asked Jody about her hairdressing apprenticeship.

As part of her training, she also went to a technical college, and Jody said that her one day a week at college would have been each Monday or Wednesday.

The police officer reminded Jody that she did not remember the family dog being inside the car.

When, according to Jody, her father arrived with the two girls at the salon on Monday morning, it seemed that he was doubting whether John had even gone to the salon.

Ma'am but do you recall there was some journals inside the car, Is that correct?

Yep, in the back.

Whereabouts in the back were they?

I don't know, And I was just talking to Dad before I went back in.

The boot was open and he was getting something out for the kids.

I don't know what, but that's when he picked it up out of the boot.

I don't even know if I saw what side of the boot, but he sort of picked it up and went to show me.

But I knew I was getting called back inside, so I will not called.

But I knew I was getting looked at and needed to be back inside, so I didn't have time to go into anything with it.

Here for the first time, John's daughter was introducing evidence of having seen inside the car's boot on the Monday morning.

She remembered this at the inquest during the lunch adjournment.

After just talking to Dad.

Now we have speculated that Bromwin's body was in the boot.

Matt Fordham's earlier questions about John's unknown movements after he had dropped the two girls off at the home of his ex wife were connected to a similar theory that Bromwin's body was in the boot of the ford Falcon, but neither the police officer nor Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor knew then of the two paws of concrete at the building site in Illawan where John had been working.

It only became known because we asked for building department documents from the local southerland Shire Council.

Did you see anything else inside the boot?

No, not that I remember.

And these journals that you saw, could you describe them to us?

It was just like a force cap page with no front on it, and it just was pages of her writing.

I know her writing, and it was her writing and just on a notebook sort of thing.

Did you see them inside the boot and pick them up or did your father pick them up and hand them to you?

From memory, I seem to seem sort of pulling them out like, but I don't really I don't really.

Remember, I'm not And did he hand them to you?

No, I don't think so.

Matt Fordham asked a flurry of questions.

Did she read the pages, did her father comment to her about them?

Did she get a look at them?

Jody answered no.

You see, ma'am, today is the first time that you've either told the police or his worship about seeing those journals at the back of the car that day, isn't it.

I don't think so.

I'm sure I told Detective Taylor about that when he spoke to me.

You'd agree with me that there's absolutely no reference in your statement too.

No, it's not in there.

I know it's not in there.

I don't know why it wasn't written in my statement, but I do sort of.

I'm positive.

I remember talking to Detective Taylor and Detective Temby about it, and he said something to the words of, yeah, well, we don't know where that is now, like it disappeared, so and I'm pretty confident and Detective Temby was there, so we just left it at that.

Why did you tell Detective Temby in Detective Taylor about.

That, because he asked me if i'd seen into the boot that day and what was in there, and that's how the notebook came up.

In your discussions with your father over the years, have you learnt the relevance of those documents?

No?

I haven't.

Actually, is there any reason why you didn't indicate it to Detective Discan.

Detective disc In, I only spoke to Detective Discan for about five minutes, and he asked me, nothing like that.

Jody was then asked again about how her father connected with Rebecca Maguire to visit the house on Sunday evening.

Jody said that she had not put them in touch.

She said John had not talked to her about who would be suitable to accompany him to Sandstone Crescent.

Jody seemed perplexed.

She didn't have the phone on.

I don't think Matt.

Fordham went back to Broman's writings.

You'd agree that a journal would be some indication as to a state of mind at the time she went missing, wouldn't it.

Yeah?

And you'd agree with me that if the Reeds were asking you about what had happened to Bronwin, you'd be trying to provide them with all the information that you could, wouldn't you.

I would assume.

So you certainly wouldn't be trying to hide anything, would you.

No?

And if you accept that your father at no stage even told the Reeds about the existence of the journal, doesn't that strike you as being strange?

Maybe?

But my dad's a very private person.

So, ma'am, how many nights did the children and your father stay with you at your flat?

I don't recall, where did the family dog stay.

I don't know.

I didn't have the dog with me, so I didn't know where the.

Dog was, ma'am.

After the months have passed and Bronwin hasn't returned, what happened to the jewelry that she owned?

I never really asked.

I never I thought she would have had it with her until the other day when I saw the box.

She would have had earrings, she would have had necklaces, she would have had bangles, She would have had a range of jewelry, wouldn't she Probably Do you know what happened to that?

No, I don't.

When you returned to the house at lanticx Head, at some stage, did you ever inquire of your dad as to what happened to the things that Bronwin owned.

I think at some stage I may have asked where the clothes, where her clothes were or something, because I mean, she you know, she didn't take much with her or whatever, so I think he put them in a bag and they were kept in the house for her.

But I'm not certain on that either.

To your knowledge, does your father still have any of the jewelry that braun Went owned.

Well, I don't know.

I've never asked him.

Were you told anything about a medicare check by your father?

I don't remember anything about the medicare.

Check now, ma'am.

In the weeks that your father has arrived down in Sydney after the sixteenth of May, did you have any discussions with him about taking legal action to protect his interests in the house.

Sorry, say that again.

Matt Fordham asked his question again.

Logically, if Bromin was alive and she had gone away for a few days or a couple of weeks, she would return and then the contest over the.

House would be on again.

John would surely talk to Jody about his plans to counter Broman's determination to walk away from the failed marriage with a part of their asset pul which was rightfully hers.

No, I never talked to him about the house.

You've never discussed the ownership of the house with your father, No, not at all.

I know nothing about the legal part of any of their stuff, both of them.

My dad would never have told me information like that, and Bronwin would never have got me involved in.

Stuff like that.

Do you think your father was concerned about Bronwin running off with the children?

No?

Why is that well, there was never any reason for her to run off with them.

Looking back on it now, don't you think that it's strange the course of events that followed Bronlin's disappearance.

At the time, I didn't question it because, yes, my age, if it happened now and the age I am, yes, I would have had so many questions like everybody else does.

But at the time I didn't because I just I just didn't.

Ma'am.

Do you have any idea what may have happened to Bronwin?

No, I don't.

You would have become quite close to Bronwin in the years that you stayed with it, is that correct?

Yes?

I did.

She was very much a mother figure to you, wasn't she.

Yeah, And you'd agree with me that any sightings of Bronin would be something that you would be keen of the police to follow up very quickly an attempt to locate her.

Definitely, And you'd agree with me that.

If Bronin was located, then it would put everybody's mind to rest, wouldn't it.

Definitely.

Matt Fordham summarized Jody's actions earlier in the week, when she indicated that she had received information on Monday morning from a woman Kayleen, who had purportedly told Jody that another woman, Joanne, may have seen Bromwin.

In Nimben out Nimbenweh was what she told me out Nimbenweh.

And do you agree with me that when the officer in charge and I asked you some questions in relation to who Joanne was and who the caller was, you said words to the effect that you didn't want to ask too many questions because you were scared that you would scare her off.

Well, I got what I needed to get out of her, and I didn't want to ask her last name.

I had, however, got Joanne's name and that she was married to Craig and that was Mark Guthrie's brother.

I thought that's all I needed.

And after I asked her if she has told the police this information, she said yes.

I thought, well, it would be in the statements.

They can find her name through that.

That's why I didn't push for anything else.

But you'd agree with me that the information you're hearing on Monday morning, it's a fairly extraordinary thing for people to ring you up and say that they may have seen her.

Well, yes, especially being on the morning of it.

But I'm just I'm just relaying the information that I have.

I mean, what was I going to do, not turn up and say it.

I had to say what happened.

The police officer pointed out that Jody had not inquired of Kayleen's surname, nor had Jody asked about Bromwin's purported whereabouts in Nimben.

No, because I didn't want to scare her off.

I just knew that if her name was in the statements, you'd be able to find her.

Why should she be scared?

Because if she knew this, why didn't she come forward with it earlier?

If Johanna told her years ago that she thought she saw her, why didn't she come forward.

I got the impression she didn't want to be involved, so I just left it that way.

I expect you to take it further, not me.

You weren't interested in finding out yourself?

Yes, I was, but I knew you would do that for me.

You see, ma'am, I really can't believe that someone who has lost a mother figure would simply say, well, I won't ask any questions of this caller, I'll let police follow it up.

Have you ever received any financial gifts from your father of a substantial nature.

No, you've obviously discussed the progress of this matter with your father leading up to you today of this week.

You mean, briefly, But Dad's trying.

He doesn't get me involved in it.

He does not involve me or influence me in any way whatsoever.

When you say he doesn't involve you, you'd agree with me that on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he involved you, didn't he.

Yes, Are you suggesting that your father hasn't spoken with you at all about the evidence that you've heard at this inquest?

No, not really.

Jodie insisted that her father had not suggested to her any of the evidence that she should give to the inquest, and she said that he had definitely not influenced her in relation to her memory of events relevant to Bromwin's disappearance.

You see, ma'am, there must have been some information over the years that you've learned about Bronwin and her disappearance, which you've learnt from your father.

There's lots of things I've learned about this whole thing over the years.

And to be honest, like somebody said, rumors, there are so many rumors that it's just like this influx of information.

You don't know where you get it from half the time the stuff.

You hear, And ma'am, you'd agree that based on your knowledge of Bronwin, she wouldn't be the person that would walk out on her children, would she.

I wouldn't have thought so.

And therefore, ma'am, you must be surprised that Bronlin hasn't returned after all this time.

Yes, I am surprised, but you know there was things going on with Bronwin at the time when she disappeared.

You're saying, ma'am, I'm suggesting it's unbelievable, really, that you could lose this mother figure and these reported sightings occur, and the medicare check arrives, and the clothes go missing, and you don't discuss these matters with your father.

I don't discuss them in any great in any detail.

No, if I've asked him questions, he'll answer me, and that's about it.

I don't recall any definite conversations.

I think we just assumed that whoever picked her up in the car was a boyfriend.

And you agree, there's been a suggestion that Bronwin may have run off with some religious group or something like that.

Yeah, I've heard that too, And none of these things you've discussed with your father.

I mean, the way I see it is that you know, if your wife walks out on you and disappears, it's obviously something that's going to be upsetting for you.

So no, I don't push him to talk.

If he wants to talk to me about it, of course I'm going to talk to him, but I don't push him to talk to me about it.

Matt Fordham sat down.

He was done with Jody.

John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, stood to ask just a few questions.

He sought to develop Jody's characterization of Bromwin's behavior in May nineteen ninety three.

What did you mean by that?

Well, I'd heard a lot of things from friends people around the town that she was acting at work and the way she was acting with me that weren't her normal behavior coming up to her disappearing.

Can you recall any specific examples of how she was acting other than normally at that time?

I recall one night she rang me.

I don't remember what it was she was asking me.

It was really late and I was asleep actually, and she said something to me about drinking and drink driving any other incidents, only the I was, you know, hearing she was riding around town on the backs of motorbikes and things like that through friends that I knew downtown and people were saying things like she used to walk down the street talking to herself and things like that, which was not, you know, the Bronlin that I used to know, and that was that.

Jodi was excused, got up and walked away.

I call Crystal Winfield.

It was a bold move by the police officer presenting the case to the deputy state coroner.

The suspected murder victim's daughter would give evidence and potentially implicate the man she called dad.

Karl Milavanovitch understood that the stakes were getting higher.

It would be hard enough for the youngest witness at the inquest.

He didn't want to add to her burden.

Mister Leggett, I'm going to make a direction.

Did the evidence of Crystal be given in the absence of your clothe and also in the absence of Jody made Yes, sir, those persons will have to leave the court room.

Yeh, yes, yes, I understand.

Crystal Joy Winfield approached the witness stand as John and Jody walked out of the Lismore courtroom.

Crystal, if you need to break at any time, just let me know if you want a glass of water or anything.

Matt Fordham canvassed with Crystal Key parts of her police statement, Crystal started to expand on some of it in her oral evidence.

She recalled seeing John on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.

I remember Dad.

I mean, I don't know whether he left it that, but I do remember him coming in and I do remember sitting there watching TV with Luren and they were talking.

He was asking who's going to pay the bills?

You know.

Matt Fordham then prompted Cristal with what she said next in her statement about her mother telling her and Lauren to clean their teeth and go to bed, and of hearing her parents arguing and her mother crying.

Do you remember that happening?

Yeah?

I do, yeah, very clearly.

Do you remember was the argument a short one or did it go for a long time?

I think it was kind of more discussion.

Mum was very worried about, you know, talking while Lauren and I were that She kind of you know, wanted to talk.

To Dad a bit later.

I mean they were arguing, but you know, not yelling or anything like that.

Crystal said that she did not hear her mother make any comments about going back to the Byron Street flat.

I mean, at that age, I was thinking maybe mum and dad might sort things out and you know, get back together.

Matt Fordham then remind Crystal of the parts of her statement where she described having been woken up and put in the car with some clothing Lauren and the family pet.

I mean, I guess some things are stick in your head more than others.

But at that point in time, I was sitting in the car and Lauren was next to me, and I had my dog on my lap, and I because, I mean, I always got Lauren to askings because of reasons.

But Crystal became distressed.

She could not go on, do.

You want to break?

For a couple of minutes, Crystal take a short Breakstarge.

She had begun to describe her reluctance to ask John questions and how Lauren would.

Then take on this role.

After regathering her composure, Crystal came back and was offered a support person to sit with her.

Ma'am in the car on the way down to Sydney.

Do you remember stopping anywhere?

See, I can't.

I can't be quite sure that it was the same night.

I mean, we did go to Sydney a couple of times after that night, but I'm pretty sure we stopped on the way down outside for Dad to.

Have a rest.

I think it was a deserted petrol station.

It was old and it didn't look functioning.

It wasn't functioning anymore.

But yeah, I'm not sure whether that.

Was that night.

Do you remember stopping somewhere and playing with the dog for example?

Yeah, yeah, we stopped.

It was daylight at that time and we needed to stop to let the dog go to the toilet.

And I think it was kind of on the side of the road and it was just a hill that we'd stopped somewhere.

Crystal said she slept for most of the drive to Sydney.

Do you remember stopping at the hair cell on and meeting up with Jody?

No, I don't.

Do you remember being taken to Jenny Mason's house?

Yeah?

I remember being there.

Yeah.

And do you remember how long you were there?

For?

Pretty much the afternoon?

Yeah?

And do you remember then going to the Reed's house.

I mean, I couldn't be certain it was the same day, but I remember going there.

Yeah, this was an illuminating exchange.

In my view, Crystal was direct and firm about one thing.

She had no memory of stopping at the hair salon and meeting up with Jody.

Matt Fordham already appeared to have suspicions about whether such a stopover had occurred.

Let's consider the timeline.

John had a receipt for the purchase of petrol at eleven o six pm at the Ampole service station in Ballaner the night before, but that is only evidence of the time he bought fuel.

It's not evidence of the time he left Ballana to drive south.

More likely, in my view, is that John drove back to the house in Sandstone Crescent after buying petrol, put Bromwin's body in the back seat, drove down Granite Street, where.

He was seen by Judy Singh.

Around midnight, and then, for whatever reason, changed his mind about disposing of Bromwin's body locally, returned to the house, where he moved Bromwin's body to the boot of the Ford Falcon, hastily packed clothes in pillowcases and told the two girls to get into the.

Car for a drive to Sydney.

But he didn't have a lot of time because he was leaving Lennox Head closer to one am in this scenario, not two hours earlier eleven oh six pm.

If this theory is right, there was no time for a stopover at the hair salon before he turned up at his former wife Jennifer Mason's house.

You say that you went to bed and you could hear them arguing outside your bedroom.

Do you remember how long that argument went?

For?

Probably about half because I think I was pretty tight.

I mean I usually fall asleep within half an hour.

And do you remember what time you were woken up and placed into the car?

I'm not sure.

I mean I thought it was around I don't know.

No, I'm not quite sure, but it was around one or something.

Do you remember was there anything else inside the car?

No?

But I mean I remember as we were leaving, Dad was grubbing a few things, like packing them into bags, and we were walking out the door.

He carried Lauren to the car.

I walked.

I have a feeling Lauren was already in the car when I was there.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lauren was already in the car.

I think you were present earlier when you heard mister Nolan described the car rolling down without the engine on and the car bottoming out as it entered the roadway.

Do you have any memory of that at all?

Dad often did that.

Yeah, I can't be certain.

Matt Fordham asked Crystal about whether she recalled stopping for fuel at the Pied Piper Ampole service station in Ballina before they left the region for the drive south, and Crystal replied yes, she did remember something about that, but then she said, I.

Was seeking Oh it's daylight and I didn't want to see anyone in my pajamas.

Yeah.

Crystal did not clarify whether she might have been confusing this stopped for fuel with a different one, but she recalled that John was drinking a lot of coffee.

He must have been exhaust.

Yeah, he was very tired.

Yeah, he just looked tired.

I think there was a lot going on at that time.

We were all going through a lot at that time.

He looked very tired and very pale.

Ma'am.

You say in your statement that your father does not want you to speak to the police about what happened that night.

Was there anything that your father said to you that makes you say that.

I think it was more the fact that I felt Dad never really wanted to talk about it.

I mean, he never specifically said, I don't want you to speak to the police about it, But I mean I was in the car of a number of times when people Glenn I think, had wrung him and he was going off with them for ringing us when the kids are here, and so I kind of got the impression he didn't.

Want me to go in.

I know, after I'd gone and made my statement, Dad had got him really angry with me about it, simply because he wanted Jody to be there.

Crystal said that she had explained to John that she was accompanied by one of her school teachers for the making of her police statement, but John was not happy about it.

He asked me, who'd you go with, and I said, well, you're at school.

Yeah, He said, I wanted Jody to be there when you made your statement.

I guess he kind of was thinking that they were twisting our words or whatever.

When he asked for a copy of my statement, I said I couldn't find it.

He said, because I'm worried because I need a copy.

Cristel added that John told her the copy would be for his solicitor or his barrister.

Crystal used both those words for a lawyer, and she added that John said people had.

Been twisting his words and people's words or something.

Crystal confirmed that she was in John's care until she was fourteen, and then she went to live with Liz and Clive Gardner, a couple from a church, which Crystal had become close to.

Describing John's situation as at two thousand and two, Crystal said, Lauren was still at home.

They've got a house.

Well, they've got a double block of wear and they've built a house for Jody's family, and Dad's building a house for Lauren and him.

Next, you'll recall a brief exchange earlier in this episode when Jody was being questioned.

Here's a reminder, have.

You ever received any financial gifts from your father of a substantial nature?

No, ma'am.

Over the years since your mother has disappeared, has your father indicated to you where she may have gone.

We've never talked about it.

I think the only person I ever spoke to was Jodi, and Jody would tell me things that she heard.

I mean, I think that's where the motorbike things come from.

I mean, I was told her one stage by Jody that Mum had been seeing I'll justly be missing on the back of a motorbike by one of her friends, you know, and things like that.

I guess Lauren and I kind of felt like were left out of it a bit.

Lauren was telling me last night or the night before that, Jody said to her that if Mum will passed her in the streets, she wouldn't recognize her because she was going funny in the head.

And I mean things like that.

I mean I was told, you know, we talked about how her mum had done the same thing, and whether that was to make us feel better about it or like her, and things.

I don't know, but it was said, and I mean, those things stick in your head because we want to believe them.

I guess you've since found out, of course, that the issue of Bronwin's mother leaving.

I think the truth is that she went overseas for a few years and came back, and she was with her own mother throughout that time, and it may not have been as big an issue as may have been thought soon after nineteen ninety three.

Is that your understanding now.

Yeah, I mean, just sitting here and listening to how many people Mum used to keep the regular contact with, I just think, well, you think she would have contact at least one person.

Matt Fordham asked about a signet ring it belonged to Crystal, and the mention of it prompted some potentially important evidence from her.

Well, that's actually what I find really strange.

Like, I mean, I don't know at the time whether it was in a handbag, but I had a signet ring that was given to me when I was very young, and it was broken at that point in time, it had split, and I swore she had it in a handbag because she was going to get it fixed, because I remember going through a handbag one time and finding it and thinking, oh, Mom, you're gonna go.

Get this fixed.

And I just swore it was in a handbag.

And then not that long ago, a couple of years ago, or maybe three years ago, Laura said, oh, look, well Dad.

Gave me and it was my ring.

And I thought, that's my signet ring and I recognized it straight away, and it was just the strangest thing, and I thought, oh, well, maybe it wasn't in a bag.

I don't know.

It was just weird.

Andy and Michelle must have heard it with a heavy heart.

John had claimed that when Bromman walked out the door on the night of May sixteen, nineteen ninety three, she took her handbag.

If Crystal's ring was inside that handbag, how did it materialize some five years later as a gift from John to Lauren.

Had John taken valuable such as jewelry and cash from the handbag when broman disappeared.

Had it been repaired?

No, it still had to split.

I took it offer well, I asked for it if I could have it.

And the last time that you saw that signal ring was when your mother had it.

Is that correct?

Yeah?

Crystal said that neither she nor Lauren spoke up about there being no photographs of their mother in the house.

All the framed family portraits were taken away.

If an awkward question needed to be asked, Crystal said she would ask Lauren to do this.

Because I knew that he would let her have anything I get it to ask, Oh, you know, we should see if we can get a look at our baby photos.

Or something like that.

So she would always ask, but he'd say, oh, I don't know where they are.

The police officer asked whether Lauren had talked about what she remembered on the night of the trip to Sydney.

Yeah.

I spoke to her about it just recently.

She came to stay with me when she had holidays.

Like I mean, I've spoken to her previously, like about it a long time ago as well.

But I said it to her again and she told me exactly the same thing she said.

I got up and wanted to the room, and Mom was sitting on the coffee in the middle of the room as she was crying, and she quickly wiped her tears away as if nothing was wrong, and she said, come on, Lauren, get back to bed, you know, and popped her into bed and tucked her in, and she said, everything's fine, you know, I'll see you in the morning.

Crystal added something else.

It was from the time they were staying in the rented property after moving out of the house and Bromwin was on the.

Telephone and I just heard Mom saying, Jody, you have no idea, you should just keep out of it, and she was crying.

It was really hard time for everyone.

When I asked about the garage of the house at Sandstone Crescent, Crystal described it as their playroom.

It was where we spent all our time with our friends.

We weren't allowed in the house when dad wasn't home.

We weren't even allowed in the house when he was home and we were with our friends.

Did he used to leave you for periods inside the garage and lock the door to the house.

Yeah, when he went surfing, or when he went shopping or whatever, just all the time.

I guess never really thought anything about it.

He might offer and leave us some musely bar I'd say, Lauren, aren't you hungry?

Asked that if we can have something to eat?

Crystal's evidence had been poignant.

The nineteen year old had opened a window to behaviors and events which were sad and deeply suspicious.

John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, began asking Crystal about her stay with Clive Gardner, the pastor in the church, and his wife.

Well, Dad kind of said to me that he was going to Sydney intro do some work.

And did he ask you, do you want to come to the city.

Well, I said, I didn't want to go.

I wanted to be around my friends.

I wanted to finish my school there, and so I asked I wanted to stay there, and I mean, Lauren wouldn't actually go with him.

I mean, when I lived with the gardeners, I felt like part of their family.

The lawyer spent some time going over the layout of the house, trying to establish Crystal's proximity to the telephone, which, according to John Bromwin had used in the bedroom to make a call to a stranger to pick her up on that fateful night.

He then asked Crystal.

About John's concern over his words being twisted in the statement Crystal had made.

She said that she understood its importance and that its contents were what she truthfully remembered in nineteen ninety eight of the events of five years earlier.

I'd heard the rumors.

I live in the same town.

I just assume you know.

Of course, he was concerned for himself about what has been said.

Mark Davis says that you told him Bronwin had been diagnosed schizophrenic but didn't believe the doctors and didn't take her medication.

Was that something that Bronwin told you or did you hear it from some other source.

No, that was Jodie that told me.

Speaking of her mother, Cristel added that she had not heard her mother behaving strangely as had been claimed.

Nothing seemed weird about her at all, like in that way.

Crystal recalled that when they were packing the house, her father said to her, grab your and.

Then I followed him into the car.

I just remember this because I was sitting in the car and Lauren was sitting next to me, and I guess we're both wondering at the time, you know, what's going on?

Where's mom?

And I think I said something to her and she says something to dad, where's mom.

Karl Milavanovitch, the deputy state coroner, broke the momentary silence.

Ask your clok Berg, you.

Certainly, your worship, And then the police officer, Matt Fordham, surprised many of those sitting in the courtroom.

He revealed that the other witness planned for that day was Jonathan Winfield.

John's lawyer was quickly back on his feet.

Your worship.

I've given mister Winfield the traditional legal advice that a person gets given in this position, and that is to rely upon the provisions of Section thirty three of the Coroner's Act.

Section thirty three is an immunity from prosecution.

The right to silence.

I'm advising mister Winfield to avail himself of that right.

Well, that is his right.

He's not required to give evidence unless you simply want him to take the witness stand and give his name and simply.

Put on the record.

We could do that for mality.

I think that's appropriate because he is a witness in these proceedings.

The idea that John Winfield would be compelled to answer questions under oath like everyone else, was thrilling to meaning in the public gallery.

Unlike everyone else, John was at risk of self incrimination.

Our legal system boasts a powerful and long standing principle.

If an accused person a suspect in a crime is compelled or forced to give evidence which could incriminate that person, then there is a protection The resulting answers, if they are, for example, admissions which might indicate guilt or involvement in a crime, cannot be used in a future criminal proceeding, such as a murder trial of that person.

That's the immunity which the Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was talking about.

Sir, could you please tell us your full name, Jonathan Winfield, Sir, is it the case that you've sought some legal advice from your barrister in relation to answering questions at this inquest?

Is that correct?

That's correct?

And so is it the case that, based on this legal advice, you wish to raise an objection under section thirty three to giving answers to any questions that we ask you.

That's correct.

I've nothing further, you worship.

Try to put yourself in john shoes.

By two thousand and two, it's been nine years since Bromwin disappeared, and you're insistent that you have done nothing wrong and you should want to help authorities in every possible way to try to find your estranged wife, the mother of your youngest daughter, Lauren, and her sister Crystal.

But John was stone silent.

His legal protection was paramount.

Shortly before this episode was released, I spoke to Andy about John's brief appearance in the witness box.

Andy used the.

Expression pleading the Fifth, a reference to the phrase used in the United States justice system when witnesses rely on the Fifth Amendment and the right to silence.

When John stepped up to give evidence, do you remember that and do you recall whether.

That was a surprise to you?

The only question he answered was his name and you're pleating the fifth yep.

I think Matt only asked him two questions, and cultures stopped it there.

On that note, John Winfield walked back to his chair and sat down next to his lawyer, Matt Fordham offered a summation of where things were at the Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin was a likely no show, but there was still Wayne Toby, who had worked with Detective.

Discin during those lame.

Inquiries made in nineteen ninety three.

Detective Temby had then worked on the case with Glenn Taylor from nineteen ninety eight.

The coroner spoke next, I.

Probably would have some reservations as to what it is detective seeing it Constable Tenby would be able to add to this inquiry, although I suppose we won't know the answer to that unless he was here.

It really seems that the real impetus into investigation didn't really start until Detective Sergeant Taylor took courage.

Of the matter.

John's lawyer, Craig Legget and the police officer presenting the case at the inquest.

Matt Fordham then agreed that rather than have Detective Temby giving evidence under oath, they would have a short adjournment and telephone him on his mobile phone.

Craig Leggett only wanted to know whether Detective Temby had any recollection of a witness, saying in nineteen ninety three that the Ford Falcon drove up sense and present not down it.

But after some further conversation between John and his lawyer, the idea was abandoned.

Detective Temby would be neither telephone to clarify anything, nor call to give evidence.

And he's going to be relying on running sheets that were made nearly nine years ago.

And he said no statement that he's made that will refresh his memory or a statement that he made a lot earlier that would perhaps be a reliable and concience record of his recollection at the time.

This was an unfortunate turn of events in my view, because the coronial inquiry really should have tried to glean relevant evidence from the Detective Wayne Temby.

He was working with Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three.

They spoke to Bromin's friends, neighbors, and family members.

In two thousand and two, Karl Milavanovitch, as Deputy State Coroner, was frustrated at the lack of police documentation from nineteen ninety and the unexplained failure of Discan and Temby to take a single witness statement.

Their police running sheets were a very poor and lazy substitute for signed witness statements.

In two thousand and two, Discan clearly was not going to go to the inquest to explain why there were such gaping holes in what should have been a serious investigation into a missing young mother, but the next best option was the younger police officer Wayne Temby.

There were good reasons for Sergeant Matt Fordham to call Temby to give evidence under oath.

A subpoena should have compelled him to bring his police notebook, refer to it wherever he needed, and answer obvious questions about why so little was done by he and Discan when the trial was relatively fresh.

In my view, Glen Taylor also should have taken a statement from Temby at the start of Taylor's nineteen ninety eight Investors destigation.

Instead, Glenn had to try to rely on and make sense of a hodgepodge of incomplete evidence and running sheet entries, which Discan and Tembe were largely responsible for in nineteen ninety three.

It's a remarkable fact that during the public hearings for the inquest in two thousand and two, Glenn Taylor was being shown for the first time bits of evidence from nineteen ninety three, such as Broman's writings and diary notes.

What was going on in the ball and A police station.

I have talked to a retired police officer who worked there and knew the detectives in nineteen ninety three.

He described the culture and work ethic in the most unflattering terms.

Its shaped up as a dream job, a quiet town with affordable housing and great beaches, surfing and fishing.

But there were serious crimes and unsolved murders too, And the retired cop told me that he and another officer in nineteen ninety three would say to each other.

If you're going to commit a murder in Australia, do it in Ballina without a tecticy.

You get away with.

It by not calling Wayne Temby to give evidence at the inquest in two thousand and two, the reputations of Ballener police were unlikely to be damaged.

Par truth about the failures and shortcomings in the original police investigation of Broman's disappearance would be largely withheld from the journalists, Broman's friends and family, and members of the public attending the Lismore courthouse each day.

In this way, New South Wales police avoided media scrutiny and acute embarrassment for having failed the mother of two.

We do not have Graham Diskin's side of the story, nor do we have Wayne Temby's side.

The former police detectives from Ballina were approached to be interviewed by me at an early stage of this podcast investigation.

The offer remains open.

Here's Bromwin's sister Melissa, reflecting on the performance of police.

Melissa attended the inquest Glenn Taylor.

He was certainly convinced that there'd been foul play.

I wish that he'd been the person on the case when it happened, because I think that would have been very different.

What more did they need?

They needed a body?

We did not have a body?

Was that the last time you saw John at the Inquesse So last time I spoke to Andy and Michelle about it while this episode was being finalized.

What we know is that the police investigation in ninety three was completely negligent and incompetent.

Yes, what we don't know is why, for what reason?

Well, it was Bromman's disappearance one of many other investigations that were just swept to the side and not bothered with.

I wonder how many other people from that area are finding themselves listening to your podcast and thinking, Yeah, they didn't do anything.

When this happened.

Is this a one off or a general way it.

Worked out of that police station with certain people.

Late in the afternoon of the fourth day of the inquest in Lizmon in two thousand and two, the Deputy State Coroner gave his cue to Matt Fordham.

The police officer had a lot to say.

It was his damning of the case against John Winfield, but it does not appear in the official transcript of the inquest.

For whatever reason, submissions and closing addresses were not transcribed.

Somebody provided me with the document which Matt Fordham read in court that afternoon.

In fairness to John, it would have been preferable to balance the ledger with the submission which his lawyer, Craig Legot made at the inquest.

The following day, I reached out to Craig Legget in Sydney to ask him.

However, mister Leggett respectfully declined.

And just a reminder, although Craig Legot has been mentioned many times in the podcast, he has not personally.

Been involved in it.

The real Craig Legate sounds like this.

I found a snippet on YouTube from one of his legal presentations.

After everybody, my name's Craig Leggett.

I'm a senior counsel from Martain Place Chambers.

Nor have you heard the voices of John or Crystal, or Lauren or Jody in this podcast?

Maddie's younger sister Tiana voiced Crystal's evidence.

They are related by blood and of course they know each other.

John, Crystal, Lauren and Jody still have standing invitations to be interviewed in this podcast investigation.

Now here's the voice actor for Matt Fordham from the inquest in two thousand and two.

This is an edited version of what he told the court and the deputy State coroner that day in the presence of John and Roman's family and friends.

Brongwin was known to be very close to her two daughters.

However, neither they nor her friends or blood family have received any contact from her.

This is extremely out of character for her.

Doreen Strong of the Family Support Service states that Bronwin had no intention of leaving her kids and in fact wanted to maintain sole custody of the kids.

This is confirmed by her attendants at solicitors to arrange an application in the family court.

Her uncle John Reid states that around Christmas nineteen ninety two, Bronwan was left stranded in Sydney by Jonathan Winfield and complained of being assaulted by him.

He saw bruising on Bronwyn's arm.

Her cousin Megan Reid, also stated that Bronwin complained of being assaulted and being forced into aborting a pregnancy against her will.

Not long before her disappearance, Bronwin asked her sister in law, Michelle Reid, to look after her children if anything was to happen to her.

Bronwyin did not have any independent source of financial support other than the accounts, which have not been touched since she disappeared.

Matt Fordham said Bromwyn had expressed concern to her near neighbor Alan Fisher, about what would occur when Jonathan Winfield returned to Lennox from Sydney.

Bromwin stated that she was quote terrified about what he might do unquote.

Matt Fordham said Bromwin was very stressed in the days before her disappearance.

She had told Desiree Flood on the afternoon of Sunday May sixteen that she was expecting problems when John arrived from Sydney, and that Desiree should not worry if she were to hear a commotion.

Matt Fordham spoke, of course, about John, his movements, his intentions, and his versions of what had happened.

Jonathan Winfield states that he saw Bronwin get up and walk silently out the front door of the premises, and that he heard the sound of the car leaving.

Mister Winfield tries to explain Bronwin's disappearance as being due to her being mentally ill and living with other people.

There is no confirmed contact with Bronwyn, since she took no belongings and none were taken from her flat.

She has not contacted any family, nor her friends, nor her kids since the night she disappeared.

That night, Jonathan Winfield immediately put the kids into their family car and left the house.

He attends a service station at eleven o six pm where he buys petrol and gas before he drives almost non stop to Sydney, arriving about nine am the following day.

He drops the kids with relatives, strangely shows them the receipt from the petrol purchase at a previous night, and is not seen for the rest of the day.

His movements at this time are not precisely known and are suspicious.

There is strong evidence of flight from the scene.

Jonathan Winfield's only explanation as to why he would take the kid's overnight back to Sydney within hours of his arrival in lenox Head is that the kids apparently travel better at night.

He does not explain why he would fly back to lennox Head with all of his clothes, his surfboard, etc.

And then leave hurriedly without these things.

His arrival in Sydney was not expected by relatives, and he does not appear to have taken the kids for holidays, as he did not take suitable clothing for the kids and in fact spends little time with him in Sydney.

Also, when Jonathan Winfield arrived on Michelle Reid's doorstep with the kids on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he appeared quite shaky.

When the neighbors entered the Winfield's house after Bronwn went missing, they noticed that it was untidy, foods on plates, wet washing in the machine, and beds not made.

This was strikingly unusual, and it appeared to the neighbors that the house had been left in a hurry.

Jonathan Winfield only reported Bronwin as missing after her brother, Andrew Reid, suggested that he might do so.

At the time Bronwin allegedly walked out of the house, Jonathan Winfield did not know for how long she would be gone.

He left no note for her explaining where he was taking the kids, and although this could have been to get back at her, this conflicts with his version that he phoned the house to check on Bronwyn's welfare.

Jonathan Winfield was very concerned about losing the house that he built.

He was aware that possession of the house was a significant factor to be considered by any tribunal determining a property settlement, and would have been keen to remain in the family home.

If he thought that Bronwyn was likely to divorce him, at the very least, he would not have wanted Bronwyn to retain possession of the home.

The legal advice received by Bronwyn shortly before her disappearance suggested that she would be entitled to a significant percentage of the assets if the couple divorced, and that it was expected that she would retain custody of both Lauren and Crystal, and that Jonathan would incur liability to pay child maintenance.

There is strong evidence that Jonathan Winfield was a possessive husband who did not allow his wife any financial or social freedom.

This conflicts with his version that he did not challenge Bronwan about where she was going late at night when she allegedly walked out of the house.

Being possessive of both his wife and the house, one can imagine his reaction when he arrived back to his own home and found that the locks had been changed and that his bags had been packed.

Jonathan Winfield has been very against any media release associated with the disappearance of his wife, and even today has expressed to police his disliked for publicity about the matter.

Bronwin has disclosed to her friend Denise Barnard, that Jonathan Winfield had been violent towards her and she was scared of further assaults.

She stated that she was tired of Jonathan Winfield's possessive manner and planned to leave with the kids.

Bronwan had disclosed to another friend that Jonathan Winfield had threatened to kill her if she ever bad mouthed him in public.

Only days prior to her disappearance, Browin gave instructions to a solicitor, Mister mcdebott, and on fourteen May nineteen ninety three, a solicitor's letter was sent to Jonathan Winfield indicating that the house and car would be contested in a property settlement.

Jonathan Winfield's first wife, Jenny Mason, describes an incident to where Jonathan tried to kill her, how he was possessive and demanded a totally clean house and would not allow her to smoke inside the house.

Compare this with the fact that dirty ashtrays were found by neighbors when they broke into the home, which would indicate that Bronwin had been smoking inside the home, not expecting Jonathan to continue to live there.

The fact that Jonathan left the house so suddenly, with half eaten food left on plates, where washing left in the machine, and dirty ashtrays is totally outside the character for him.

On fourteen May nineteen ninety three, the solicitors acting for bronwin sent Jonathan a letter indicating that she proposed to pay the outstanding registration fees for the nineteen eighty six Falcon so that the vehicle would be registered in her name only and she alone would use it.

Jonathan was potentially going to have to part with eighteen percent of his income to child maintenance.

Jonathan's previous wife d describes him as being possessive and how when they separated, he did not want her to claim her share of the property settlement.

The other previous wife, Jenny Mason, also described an incident where Jonathan threatened to kill her and strangled her neck until she kicked his groin and escaped.

Jenny Mason confirms that Jonathan did not bring any clothing with the kids when he took them to Sydney.

The daughter, Crystal Winfield, describes how her father would lose control and hit her mother on one occasion.

Jonathan through crystal against a wall.

Matt Fordham told the Deputy State Coroner that the version of events proffered by John Winfield can be discounted conclusively because of several flaws.

The police officer added that there was sufficient evidence for a court to find guilt on what was, of course a circumstantial case.

Matt Fordham set out some of what he regarded as the fundamental flaws in John's version.

The medicare check was signed allegedly by Bronwin at a space on the document where it should have been signed by the medical practitioner.

This is a basic error which would not have been made by a person with Bronwyn's work experience.

The neighbor was convalescing on the lounge in the front room of his home throughout the time in which Jonathan Winfield alleges that Bronwin seemed walked out of the house and got into an awaiting vehicle.

The gradient of Sandstone Crescent is such that a vehicle would either leave by traveling down the hill into the view of mister Nolan, or else it would travel up the hill, which would require significant revving of the vehicle's engine.

Mister Nolan neither saw nor heard any vehicle stop and then leave outside Sandstone Crescent that evening, apart from the Windfields Ford Falcon sedan which bottomed out.

Mister Nolan also recognized the suspicion attached to this disappearance within a few weeks because he went to the rear of his property and opened the lid of a sewer pit which bordered the Winfield's property in which he suspected Bronlan's body may have been stored.

During a visit of the site during the inquest, mister Nolan pointed out a wire harness which was still attached to the sewer lid as being the harness he construct did in order to open it soon after the disappearance.

The folly of Jonathan Winfield's version was immediately obvious to Bronwan's sister in law, Michelle Reid.

Missus Reed also noted that it was strange that the children did not have adequate clothing brought with them, and that Jonathan had told her that Bronwan left the house at ten thirty PM or ten forty five PM, which was different to his subsequent versions.

Jonathan Winfield later tells people that Browan left the house at an earlier time, which would be consistent with him making up those details.

He also appears to have made up details about a car stopping outside the house, as he did not inform missus Reed of that on the morning that he and the children arrived in Sydney.

Any benign explanation of Bronwan Winfield's disappearance would require that she totally disregarded her two children.

A number of witnesses described her as being a devoted mother who would not have left the kids.

That does not appear to be any credible evidence that she was involved heavily with a religious group, and police inquiries with the suggested boyfriend, Gary Jackson, reveal that she did not run off with him.

The only suggestion supporting these theories is the fact that Bronwin's own mother was forced to go overseas and leave her kids due to mental illness when her kids were very young.

However, there is no evidence of this in relation to Bronwin.

For Bronwin not to contact her children after almost a decade is I submit, highly suggestive that she is deceased.

There is absolutely no evidence that anyone other than Jonathan Winfield had any motivation or opportunity to kill Bronwin.

The little break which the deceased referred to in her diaries does not necessarily mean that the deceased intended to leave her children completely.

The diaries do not suggest that the deceased voluntarily left her home late on a Sunday night, and in any event, do not suggest any reason for her to leave her children.

It is my respectful submission that there is only one rational hypothesis available on these facts.

Jonathan Winfield killed Bronwin Winfield on the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three.

The most likely method of carrying out the killing was by strangling or smothering the deceased, as no evidence of a struggle, weapons, or bloodstains were found inside the house when neighbours entered in the days after the disappearance.

A jury will, in my submission, recognize the compelling nature of the admissible evidence available against the suspect Jonathan Winfield.

Accordingly, I submit that the tests under Section nineteen of the Coroner's Acts have been satisfied and that a jury would convict Jonathan Winfield of Bronwin's murder.

It was a compelling build up and then a powerful lending.

Karl Milavanovitch spoke up and he told the court that he was of the view that he could find on the evidence that Bronwyn joy Winfield.

Is in fact deceased.

I think the evidence that we have heard in the last four days regarding Bronwyn would suggest that, notwithstanding that she had some difficulties in her life, there is no suggestion that she intended simply to disappear off the face of the earth, and perhaps disappear in a sense of joining our commune or just dropping out of life.

The overwhelming inference is that she must be deceased, and I think the evidence is very clear.

And persuasive in that regard.

She had plans even in the immediate.

Days after her disappearance.

She had plans to see a solicitor.

She had plans to look after the children.

We have all seen and learned a little bit more about Bronwin in the last four days, about her personality, about her devotion to her children, and it is beyond conceivable belief that she would have just disappeared and have made no contact with anybody over the last nine years.

He referenced the strange events with Jodie Winfield, suggesting Bromwin was alive and well and living out Nimben Way.

And one perhaps wonders what the motivation behind that evidence was, whether it was to frustrate this inquiry or whether it was genuine.

But be that as it may, there is no positive, affirmative or definitive or reliable sighting of Bronwyn other than by mister Winfield, one of the witnesses in these proceedings, being the last person, and perhaps Kristall and Lauren to have seen her alive.

The evidence, in my view is overwhelming that she is in fact deceased, and I am prepared at this stage of the proceedings to make that ruling that I am satisfied that Bronwin Joy Winfield is in fact deceased.

But under the Coroner's Act, Karl Milavanovitch could not stop there.

He was also required to make findings about the date, time, and manner of her death.

It was late in the day the Deputy State Coroner wanted John and his life lawyer to have some time overnight to consider their position.

O can, perhaps, in fairness, indicate at this stage that I'm considering terminating the proceedings and recommending that a known person be charged with an indutable offense.

Andy recalled that you could have heard a pin drop without naming the known person.

The deputy state Coroner was flagging that he believed John Winfield should be charged with murder.

I will be giving reasons in detail to the Attorney General, but that is in confidence in relation to me sending the brief, the transcripts and my reasons.

But I'm happy to hear any submissions tomorrow tomorrow morning.

Yes, thank you, your worship.

The fifth and final day of the inquest, on Friday May thirty one, two thousand and two, started at ten twenty am.

Craig Leggott kicked proceedings off with a surprise new witness.

His name was Clive Ian Gardner.

His daughter and Crystal were friends.

The Gardner family had looked after Crystal when she was in her teens and no longer living with John and Lauren.

I'm a pastor with the Christian Outreach Center in Ballana.

I understand you went somewhere last night in the company of someone I did.

Would you tell his worship who where?

Okay?

I went to Broadwater in the company of John Winfield, who asked me to come to approach Detective disc in.

John had a statement that he wanted the detective to read and if he agreed with it to sign.

That's what I knew beforehand.

When we got there.

We approached the house, there was a lady in the front yard who brought us in and called I assume her husband, who came out.

John introduced himself as John Winfield.

The detective said, I can't talk to you.

John approached him to say, I've just got a statement here I'd like you to read, and he really didn't get the full sentence out.

He just said again, I can't talk to you.

And John tried one more time, and the third time he said I can't talk to you, and then we left.

And I understand that you formed some impression based on that conversation.

Well, I'd have to recognize him as a man of authority.

It's just in his tone of voice, the way he said it, the words he chose.

It was not disclosed how John knew Graham Discin's home address.

I talked to Michelle and Andy about it.

They went to Graham Diskin's house that evening.

When it got mentioned on the Friday morning in the court ran it was like, how does John know where Graham discon lives and why did he go there?

That was a surprise.

We didn't know that he.

Tried to get him decide stat Debt.

What do you but believe that was.

About Well, I've never seen the document that he tried to present to Discan, so I don't know, but I'm assuming that John wanted Discan to agree to certain things in the document, facts that John would claim he told Discot.

And I think the timing's interesting.

That happens on the Thursday night, probably a couple of hours after the Deputy State Coroner has told the court it's curtains.

For you, John, expect exactly.

So this would have been a last ditch bid by John to try to introduce some new evidence that could have changed the coroner's mind.

The following morning, Graham Discin or his wife must have telephoned Ballon of police when John Winfield turned up unexpectedly at Discan's home.

Ballener Police took some action that Thursday evening.

They alerted Murray Nolan and Deb Hall at their house in Sandstone Crescent that John was highly agitated and on the move.

Murray and Deb told me how that unfolded.

So it's the last night of the inquest, He's gone to Discan's house and we're fre around the house, banging on the walls, and so the police have rang us up and told us to lock the doors.

A patrol car around to patrol our house because they were worried about John.

He was so angry because it was.

All unfolding at the inquest that he was going to be nabbed, and he wanted Discan to be coming to that inquiry to vouch for him.

And I think disc And knew he would be under scrutiny being a police officer, so he chose to not come to the inquiry.

Disc but I think he also realized that he messed up from the initial stages.

Glen Taylor said to me, and I can remember him telling you this.

He said, I can only apologize to you for what the police didn't do.

Back then.

John Winfield went down to the Distan's home with a document.

He went down there during his inquest and confronted disc and said would you read to sign this?

And Discan said no, how did you know where dis can live?

I don't have that answer.

It seemed very odd.

I quite no evidence to say that they were friends outside of the investigation.

Now what was in that document?

I don't know.

The coronial proceeding run by Karl Milvanovitch in the old Lismore courtouse was almost over.

He directed a question to Craig Leggot.

No other evidence has been called today.

John's lawyer had already given his submissions on behalf of John.

Craig Legatet had no more to say.

And then the Deputy State Coroner directed a question to Matt Fordham, the hard working police officer who had pulled so much of the case together.

Sergeant do you wish to respond to any matters?

Matt had nothing to add.

I think it's important for everyone to understand a little bit about a coroner's role, but perhaps a little bit about the history of the position in the context of the evidence that's unfolded in this court in the last five days.

The role of coroner is perhaps one of the oldest judicial roles in our legal history, which we inherited from England.

The position of coroner has expanded to the point where coroners now have an obligation under the Coroner's Act to investigate deaths that are reported to a coroner or suspicious deaths and to make certain statutory findings which are requirements under the Act.

Of course, in this inquest, as we well know, there is nobody.

This was not a matter that was reported to the coroner, as most traditional matters are.

When somebody dies and there is a suspicion attached to their death, and there is a body, and there may be a crime seat where there is no body, of course, it is difficult for the coroner to make certain findings.

But I am able, of course, on the evidence to make the findings that I indicated that I would be prepared to make yesterday, and that is that I am satisfied on the evidence that I have heard yesterday and over the last four or five days, that brodenwin Joy Wingfield is in fact deceased.

The fact that she was very devoted to her children, the circumstances in which she left without taking any clothing, without there being any operation of her bankcout counts, the fact that there's been no affirmative sightings or confirmed sightings or any contact that she has made with any members of the family satisfy me at the requisite level that she is in fact deceased.

A coroner's matter is somewhat difficult in relation to matters where a known person may be considered to be a person of interest.

The first finding that the coroner has to determine is that he is satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed an indictable offense.

And then the coroner has a second leak to consider under section nineteen, and that is whether there is a reasonable prospect that a jury would convict a known person on the evidence.

The difficulty is that under section nineteen, I am not allowed to name a known person in relation to applying my reasonings for that test.

While the Deputy State Coroner was legally constrained from stating the obvious, there are no such constraints on me or this podcast.

The known person was, of course right there staring back at Karl Milvanovitch, John Winfield.

People sitting in this court over the last week might feel that this is a trial.

It is not a trial.

There is no defend before this court.

There is no person charge with any criminal offense.

It is an inquisition, and it is an inquiry where there are no strict rules of evidence.

There is a lot of evidence that's been allowed into this inquest.

I am prepared, however.

To make this comment in relation to mister Leggat's submission.

In regard to the likelihood that Bromwin Winfield in fact left of her own accord.

Karl Milvanovitch mentioned the telephone records showing calls being made to Country Link, an indication of Bromwin's interest in the timetables for public transport, particularly trains.

The fact that there are telephone calls to CountryLink, and the fact that she talked in letters that about there was going to be a change that she was going to go away, is not necessarily inconsistent with the fact that she still disappeared on the night of sixteen may under circumstances which I'm not consistent with her seeking to go away for a holiday.

As you have heard earlier in the podcast, Bromman was also making plans to host her sister, Kim Marshall, who would be traveling from Tasmania and would have needed to take public transport from Sydney for her trip to Lenox.

Carl then spoke of the challenges Bromwin was facing.

One has to remember that in that two week period before she disappeared on sixteen May, she was going through perhaps the most difficult time of her life.

She had made a decision, firstly, sometime earlier to move out of the matrimonial home.

I don't think there can be any doubt that she perceived her marriage as having come to an end, and she had made a very perhaps bold decision and a brave decision to move back into the matrimonial home.

She knew what the consequences of that would be.

She knew that it would involve FORHPS litigation.

She knew that it would involve emotions.

She knew that possibly she was even anticipating that it would require a reunion of Crystal with her true father and making contact with that part of the family.

And she was planning that.

She was going through what appears to me a very difficult time.

The fact that she made notes and wrote letters is perhaps a way in which I perceive that she tried to rationalize all these various things that were going through her mind.

She knew solicitors were writing letters.

She knew that those letters were going to contain matters on her instructions to her solicitor, which included that she wanted a property settlement, that she wanted sole ownership of the family motor vehicle, and maybe she thought this is a good time to take the children away for a couple of weeks while all those things are happening.

It's totally consistent with perhaps her making some comment that I'm going to go away, and even comments like you will see a change.

Well, what about the notation in her diary Modeling and Self Improvement Course nineteenth to twenty June, Lismore Workers Club.

This woman had plans, She had plans for the future, she had appointments with solicitors, she was going to disconnect the telephone at the flat, she was going to get the car registered, And if she was going to go away, it certainly wasn't on the night of sixteen May, with no clothing, no suitcases, and without telling her children.

I am satisfied and I make this finding that she died on or about sixteen May in the state of New South Wales.

I now terminate this inquest pursuant to Section nineteen, being satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed an indictable offense, and there is a reasonable prospect that the jury would convict the known person of an indictable offense.

May I, on behalf of my court and on behalf of my staff, extend my personal sympathy to the family and friends of Bronwyn joy Winfield.

That ends my role as corridor in these proceedings.

It also ends my role for some weeks in this third season of the Bromwin podcast series.

As you've heard, we are now pausing production the finishing touches to this episode.

The day before its release, two subscribers were happening on Bromwin's birthday, April twenty four, and very soon Bromwin will have been missing for thirty two years.

Does anyone seriously believe that Bromwin was so annoyed with John or that some mythical sugar daddy was so persuasive and well off that this deeply devoted mother of two voluntarily stayed away from her girls, her family all that time, thirty two years without contact or sightings by anyone.

How was such a compelling case relegated to the too hard basket by the Office the Director of Public Prosecutions twenty three years ago, after Carl's inquest wrapped up.

When we come back, we will try to find out now for something different.

My talented friend Matt Condon, crime writer, author, podcaster and investigator, and a sneak preview of his new podcast series, The Gangster's Ghost.

As a crime writer, I've always been fascinated by Stuart John Reagan or Johnny Reagan, the psychopath's psychopath in terms of Australian criminal history.

He burnt like an Oxyuscettlen torch through Sydney from the mid sixties until he was gunned down by three assassins.

And by chance, I've got acquainted with a cousin of Johnny Reagan, Kelly Slater.

Reagan contacted me and said, look, we'd like to look more seriously into our long dead relative and see whether he was as big a monster as everyone says he was.

I'm an ex police officer and cousin of Johnny Reagan.

We're looking at doing a podcast on him, the good, the bad, the ugly, mostly the two Ladder, but his childhood as well.

We have letters and recordings that have never been heard.

Looking for help to make it work.

Kelly Slater Regan.

Kelly almost as an Aside said to me, We've got the tapes, and I had to stop and ask her what do you mean by the tapes.

The family had possession of some secret, real to real audio tapes that Reagan himself had recorded on his home and office phones, making dozens and dozens of discussions with crooks.

Law is.

The idea of these tapes bring the voice of the dead gangster to the listener's ears was absolutely irresistible.

Reagan was a lunatic, a maniac, a ruthless killer.

He was a gunman, a standover man, a rat with a gold tooth, a con artist, a business genius, and a crook with movie star good looks who had an explosive temper.

They said.

He murdered up to twelve people, and prior to his death he had developed what may have been the greatest land scam in Australian history.

You shouldn't have made it chard interested in.

You're lying in a third flighter.

You're sitting in the same room with the ghost of a gangster who's been dead for fifty years.

He even took a concealed miniature cassette recorder out into the streets of King's Cross and Darlinghurst and captured conversations with other criminals and crooked cops.

Corrupt cops, one of whom I heard in the first episode of your series.

In my research over fifteen years for true crime books, I've interviewed an amazing cast of characters.

I would shoot the breeze with Roger Rogerson about what he thought of Reagan.

This is the notorious former New South Wales detective and convicted murderer, Roger Rogerson.

You can control a badman, but you can't control a madman.

I've never ever forgotten.

You will soon be hearing a lot of the gangster's ghost, as clear as if the killer himself had pulled up a chair at your kitchen table and settle down for a cup of tea and a chat.

And now, incredibly, the question is this was Johnny Reagan, in fact, Roger Robinson's first kill.

With this story, you're dealing very closely with Kelly Reagan and other members of the Reagan family because they hold the keys to a lot of the information upon which you are relying tapes and other documents, family artifacts.

Reagan was a terrible person, a monster, a psychopath, a serial killer.

How do you manage the sometimes unavoidable tension where family members want to see their relation possibly depicted one way, whereas you know that the truth it goes the other way.

Very good question, and it's an important question for a story like the You have a family here, relatives of this dead gangster who want to go deeper and to get a sharper focus on what he was actually like Kelly Slater, Reagan becomes a sort of co pilot on this journey.

Kelly and I had a very frank discussion saying, look, the risk here is that you discover a bigger monster than you ever knew existed before.

That's how dangerous and monumentally violent he was.

They're fully prepared, the Reagans are fully prepared for the horrors that they might find, and indeed, I can say they will find some on this journey.

And we've found some fascinating things, and we've found some extraordinary color, and we've found some horrific details.

The first episode was riveting.

I look forward to hearing everything else in it.

Thanks so much.

Adley Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian.

If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case.

Please contact me.

Confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

You can read more about this case and see a range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com.

Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Common and David Murray, with assistance from Isaac Iron's.

Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield.

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