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Alas take expiracies and cover to the pair red not a weegogo with Jeremy's Scott.

It's the week of disclosure, right, That's what we're hearing.

I'm sorry to be a pessimist.

I'm not holding my breath.

I don't think you should either, But we do have some breaking news that I guess could help facilitate disclosure if we don't get it from our politicians and the extraterrestrials want to come to Earth.

Well, you say, maybe they're already here, and I can't disagree with you on that.

Maybe they are here, Maybe they've been here all along, maybe we're the extraterrestrials.

Who knows.

But if it doesn't happen with members of Congress, or with whistleblowers or any officials, for instance, if this documentary is a big dud because it's just more of the same and it doesn't lead to anything that is promising, it may just be forgotten like many others that have preceded it.

Only time will tell.

But if there were to be an extraterrestrial revelation, perhaps we might need a meeting point, a destination for these talks to occur.

Now you say, what talks would we need.

You've got some episodes to check out, because we break down what diplomatic relations would likely have to take place between an extraterrestrial race and the human race should they decide they want to show themselves.

Well, there's been an organization that we've been supporting, the Alliance for Extraterrestrial Diplomatic Contact, who has been working for many years now trying to get this embassy.

To make it a reality, you need a member nation who is willing to provide the land and also has to be welcoming to holding those conversations with an extraterrestrial race.

This nation that is apparently now signed on to host this embassy is not being identified at this moment in time, but obviously will be at a later date once the groundbreaking begins.

That's the goal, a meeting place for extraterrestrial diplomatic contact.

So the Alliance for Extraterrestrial Diplomatic Contact has let us know that a agreement has been reached between this member nation and the Rialien movement.

Of both organizations we have supported and have done episodes talking about the work that they have been doing to bring this to reality.

So there is the update et Embassy.

An agreement has been signed coming to a nation somewhere in time, but onto tonight's program, because that is not what we're going to discuss on the program tonight.

We discuss so much that is a somewhere, of course, between the pair normal and the abnormal, and it was only a matter of time before artificial intelligence and the afterlife meat well sort of.

You know, there is this saying that there is an app for that, and how true it has become.

We love apps, We use many apps.

We encourage the use of apps.

It makes our life so much easier to put this program together than it would have been thirty years ago, even twenty years ago, or ten years ago, probably even five years ago.

Not saying that it's easy putting the show together by any stretch of the imagination, but you get my drift.

There is a new app though, that is generating some controversy, and you know, we're not going to name it because they didn't pay me to give them a commercial.

If they are out there listening, though, and they'd like to pay me to do a commercial for them, I am open to that possibility.

But for now, we're just going to tell you that it exist, and if you care to do more research on your own to find out what it is, well more power to you.

We encourage you to do your own research on anything that we discuss, and by all means, if you disagree with any of it, email us into the pair ofbnormal at gmail dot com, or if you agree with it, we like hearing those as well.

This app uses AI to create avatars of deceased loved ones.

I know some people are cringing at just that thought.

They recommend, well, apparently you need a three minute video.

So if there is a three minute video, or I guess a combination of videos that make up three minutes of your loved one, then they can use or you can use this app and AI will create an avatar of your deceased loved one.

How many of you are interested in trying that, I would be interested in hearing from you.

There has been a promotional ad which has generated some controversy as well.

It shows a woman interacting with an AI version of her dead mother.

Critics are calling the concept exploitative, unethical, reminiscent of maybe that Black Mirror episode.

Perhaps you saw the story told of a young woman who discovers technology that allows her to communicate with an artificial intelligence that imitates her boyfriend who was killed in a car crash.

That was the gist of it.

Well, this app promises to resurrect real people, and it has raised serious concerns.

We've heard about these with other technologies and attempts to digitally recreate the dead.

So I don't know how I actually feel about that, and maybe my feelings might evolve over time, But on the surface it's it's creepy, nonetheless unethical.

Well, if there's a market for it, maybe that says more about us as consumers than it does about the person who created it.

They know us better than we do, and our habits and what we might be interested in, and who knows, maybe there is a market for this.

There are other ways that the people are having contact with loved ones.

And there's a term that you may or may not have heard.

It certainly is not a popular term, but I think once you hear it, you'll realize exactly what we're talking about, and it'll make sense to you.

Crisis apparitions is that term.

These are when people vividly sense they see or hear loved ones at the moment those loved ones die when you're not with them.

Obviously, if you're with them, you probably would experience something quite different.

But if you are far away in space and time, as they say, and your loved one passes, you may get a visitation.

There's actually such an instance involving a jazz and swing singer songwriter Billy Holliday.

Something about her voice just very soothing, I will say.

Well, she told about instantly knowing that her mother had died.

Holiday actually told her manager that her mother had died along with the time of death, the morning after she actually passed away, even though she had not been told this yet.

Well, this experience is a classic crisis apparition.

And now that I think about it, I think maybe we have experienced a crisis apparition in this household.

A phenomenon studied by researchers in which the person receiving the vision has a strong and immediate sense of the death, even from an unexpected source.

Researchers have proposed several possibilities to this to explain it, but of course none fully do so, so it sounds like something that we must discuss, which we will do tonight.

Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

I'm Jeremy Scott.

Into the para normal parent.

Ethically, I think as some people will have a problem with a piece of technology that allows them not to necessarily, well, you're not connecting with your loved when you're connecting with an artificial intelligence that somehow found a clip of their voice, or maybe you submit a clip of their voice and then the AI transcribe it and Sally sounds well, just like Sally, except it's not Sally, and she didn't actually have that message for you.

It's not coming in from the other side.

But there are these natural I guess we'll call them, you know, we used to call it paranormal.

And how we get into the pair abnormal is because it is my opinion that far more things are abnormal than are paranormal, and this really fits right in there what we're going to discuss tonight.

These are natural experiences.

You don't need a psychic, a medium, you don't need an app These are things that people are experiencing, sometimes just once at the moment individuals pass, or they're about to pass, or they're at a crisis in life that could go one way or another.

These are known as crisis apparitions.

These are visions, as we've mentioned, and there's actually an author who's written a book about this who I'm honored to have on the program tonight.

Daniel Burke, author, poet, songwriter who has a background in the natural sciences, the arts, and video game industry.

He's been previously published in the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, and is the author of two books, in particular, Apparitions at the Moment of Death, The Living Ghost in Legend, Lyric and Lore, and also Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance in Legend, Lyric and Lore.

I've been wanting to talk to Daniel for quite some time, and here he is into the pair of normal.

Good evening, Good evening, Jeremy.

I appreciate you having me on.

Oh, it's my honor to have you on.

So, as we've mentioned, there's this fascination with individuals who are wanting to connect with the departed, maybe a family member, and we're familiar with contact that individuals have had through psychics and mediums using a weege of boards and a variety of other methods.

But what you discuss is a more natural kind of event.

I would say, maybe not a residual haunting.

This is not something that returns time and again, say in a haunted location, as we've discussed many times on the program, but rather a thing that doesn't happen often may only happen once, and it surrounds someone's death.

What is a crisis apparition?

Absolutely the distinction is the distinction you made is absolutely correct.

I mean, the basic idea of a crisis apparition is that there are to be clear, they are not just apparitions.

There are many forms in which the kind of intimation of a distant death can become known to the individual, but one of the more common experiences, they're often very kind of quote unquote dull and boring.

These are the kinds of words that were used to describe them in the early days, and one of the reasons why maybe they haven't necessarily been written about as much because they're very similar to each other.

However, one of the simplest ways to get across the idea of the Christs apparition is to just read one out, if you'll allow me to a very short one.

This was a This was playwright David Blasco.

He was the author of a nineteen eleven play This was the Return of Peter Grimm, and he tells us that he went to bed in his new Port home falls asleep.

Almost immediately, however, he's awakened to the form of his mother standing close to his bed, and at the time he knew her to be in San Francisco, but was unaware that there was anything kind of wrong with her.

And as he as he stands up, she simply smiles at him, reassures him with a smile as I said, speaks his name, Davy, Davy Davy, which is what she used to call him in his boyhood, and then simply kisses him before leaving.

She tells him, do not grieve.

All is well, and I am happy, of course.

Plasco then discovers that in far distant in San Francisco.

She had not only had she died at the very moment in which he had seen her at the foot of his bed, but she had spoken those very words as she had passed away, as confirmed by those around her.

So the very basic idea of a christ's separation is perceiving the form of a loved one, not always a loved one, but mostly often a loved one at very much at or in and around the very moment of their death, at a time when you couldn't have known of their death by ordinary means.

And is it primarily just a one way communication as you mentioned in this case, where the mother makes an appearance, she says something to her son, she kisses him, and that's it.

Or is there an actual conversation that takes place in some of these.

M well, the majority of Cristi's apparitions, they set themselves apart from more general what are called after death communications, these more general interactions with ostensible apparitions whom the individual knows to be dead.

With these experiences, though they are often brief, in fact there's they're often it's often the case that the ghost or the form of the individual doesn't actually speak now I want to be clear, they do speak a lot, but it's it's kind of enough to be of note that they don't.

And this is then that's actually crept into the folklore.

The folklore are regarding the nature of the nature and behavior of the ghost in many lands, suggests that ghosts do not speak until spoken to.

For example, I consider the possibility that there's a link between that kind of folklore fact and these these kind of real experiences.

But to answer your question more directly, you have sometimes there are some slightly longer conversations, but in general the idea seems to be simply to communicate the fact of the death, and this can be done kind of in a number of ways.

One of the most common is simply the kind of the waving goodbye, for example, or as we saw with David's mother, she can they can kind of speak, they can kind of reassurance in a way that suggests they will not see each other again.

Or they may even appear in a way which metaphorically represents their situations, such as with a suitcase, or as if they have or if they have trained tickets for example.

The idea the message is very simple, where this will be the last time that we see each other, at least in the life of the individual.

Hence the name the living ghost.

Absolutely the living ghosts.

The living ghost actually is kind of comes from the one of the original some of the original observations on the crisis operation, which were that the individual does not actually have to be dead in order for to be clarified a crisis apparition.

So in some sense it's a living ghost.

But the original definition of christis apparition was drawn up in the late and eeth century, and it encompassed twelve hours before or after the death of the individual.

Now, me personally, I believe that that's a little restrictive, and the authors did admit at the time that it was relatively arbitrary, but it was helpful to some extent to categorize accounts.

But yeah, you mentioned it's interesting because you mentioned earlier you mentioned that kind of the hunters and the extent to which the crisis apparition is separate from those kind of classical accounts.

There is an important similarity, however, in many of those cases of hunters, where the individual may stay in a hotel they've never been in before, perhaps kind of have the strange experience of what they perceived us of was having an encounter with a ghost.

They don't know who or what it is, but they later discovered perhaps it's an image, perhaps it's the owner of the hotel who knows that that was somebody who actually lived.

So in both cases, that death previously unknown is being discovered.

So well, they are distinct, they're connected in that way at least.

And back to what you were saying, as far as the timing, we don't know necessarily.

In some of these cases the death has already taken place, it is taking place at the moment, or it is about to happen.

Would that be an accurate statement.

That's exactly accurate.

And that's for instance, in the day of the account, we can sorry in the Blasco account, we can see that like the words that were spoken at the deathbed were those that were heard by Blasco at the time, So it suggests that the individual wasn't necessarily fully gone at the time.

However, there are many many accounts at which the individual is kind of has been.

The timing of the of the account is confirmed such that the individual wasn't known to be dead at the time, so it's before during or somewhat after.

There is no there's no distinction as such in that regard in terms of classification, all right.

Daniel Burke with us Tonight Apparitions at the Moment of Death, The Living Ghost in Legend, Lyric and Lore is his latest work talking about crisis apparitions.

Tonight Into the Pair of Normal.

I'm Jeremy Scott.

It's a newscast so wild you keep coming back for more.

Pair of Normal News with George Henry is next on Into the Pair of Normal.

Pair of Normal News.

I'm George Henry.

The Chinese astronauts who had to abandon their return vessel home due to damage have returned to Earth.

The crew of three touchdown last week on a different space craft then the one that carried them to the Tieongong space Station.

Their return was delayed for more than a week after Shenzu twenty was hit by what officials believe was a small piece of debris, leaving tiny cranks in the spacecraft's a viewpoint window.

Because of the damage, the Chinamanned Space Agency decided the capsule wasn't safe for re entry, so it was left behind and the astronauts departed aboard the newly arrived shen Zu twenty one spacecraft.

The new crew now awaits the arrival of its return vehicle, which will travel to the space station unmanned.

China has made ten crude missions to its space station since it was completed in twenty twenty two.

Here a pair ofbnormal news.

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You're sitting quietly at home when you see a loved one standing in the doorway.

Their expression is calm but distant.

Moments later, the phone rings with devastating news.

He didn't make it.

Something happens to a person like say they got an accident, they died.

Suddenly they make an appearance to their loved ones.

A crisis apparition is the appearance of somebody at the time of their death, or possibly at the time of an extreme crisis when they nearly died.

Sudden unmistakable appearance of someone at the moment they die, or just before.

You're traveling at the speed of light into the pair abnormal.

Air abnormal air, abnormal abnormal.

Or Jeremy Scott and Daniel Burke tonight.

Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

Crisis apparitions apparitions at the moment of the death is the book is the name of Daniel's books.

So we were talking about the timing of these experiences.

I guess when should we call these crisis apparitions?

When should we not based on the timing alone.

It's actually a very interesting question and the hard one to answer, because you know, I suppose technically we should kind of offer a nod to the authors of the Phantasms of the Living, those kind of early classicists and psychologists of the Society for Psychic Research who kind of drew up those original definitions and say it's twelve hours before or after, but allow ourselves to understand that anything after that.

Let me say it this way.

For me, what's important is that the individual has discovered a distant death in a manner that was other kind of defies ordinary means, because we have to remember that in many christ separations, when the individual experiences kind of perceiving the form of a loved one, it's not just that they didn't know the individual had died.

In many cases, they were unaware they were even unwell, if they were unwell at all.

In many cases, these are very kind of sudden deaths.

For example, car crashes.

Many of these accounts come in during war, during wartime, for example, So like we're kind of dealing with a very fundamental mystery here, because for instance, with that and to get slightly wipromed your question and then come back to it like after death communications, these general kind of appearances vaporations to individuals.

You know, very often hallucination is appealed to kind of breathement related hallucinations, which are real thing, are appeals to our expectations.

The individual expects this, therefore it occurs.

Now, there are problems with that in and of itself, but they cannot apply in these cases because with the Christis operation, there was no expectation of death, no knowledge of illness, and therefore the kind of moment itself.

In my opinion, it's a mystery that was while it was honed in on the late nineteenth century and somewhat followed up on in the following decades, it has been somewhat overlooked kind of in parapsychology in general.

And I think that kind of bringing light back onto the Christ that person could be an interesting and important thing.

And yes, again, to speak directly your question, I personally can honestly say, I don't know exactly when I would say it isn't a christ that version, But for me it's less important than did I discover this death by in this manner as opposed to or quote unquote ordinary means?

Sure?

So what about the relationship to near death experiences, because we've heard those who say that this not necessarily always involves a death, but someone came very very close.

So that speaks to you know, something else that might be at play here, which could be just about human survivability, maybe when we are maybe it has something to do about being on the brink, you know, having as they say, one foot here and one foot there.

I don't know what are your thoughts.

It's possible, of course.

The issue is that many people die very quickly, and so there isn't necessarily time for the living mind to be quote unquote on the brink and therefore kind of work in such a way as to kind of send a message.

Now that's not to say both things aren't true, those two things that I'm much exclusive, but just to suggest that it couldn't necessarily be one.

But in terms of the relations to ship to the near death experience, that's a really interesting question in many ways, like and one of those ways that they're the first of all, let me say there are experiences that have been coined peak in Diary and Experiences.

One of the better papers on this was written by doctor Bruce Grayson in twenty ten.

Seeing People Unknown to have Died as the name of the paper for anyone interesting and those are cases which essentially echo the crisis operation inso much as they inform of the death.

However, they occur while the individual is undergoing a near death experience.

So for example, the individual maybe maybe maybe pronounced clinically dead.

Of course, whatever amount of time later, they return, sometimes very very much unexpectedly due to their condition they return.

We know that while in these other worlds journey death experiences, the individual claims to meet disease relatives very commonly.

What's interesting here is that the individual will meet with relatives that they that tell them while they're there that they have died.

But the dying individual not only didn't know that, sorry the dead individual, but couldn't have known that because the timing of the death was when the individual was having their near death experience.

These are called picking dying experiences.

So then the individual returns to life often offers the information to those around the deathbed, including many kind of clinical professionals, doctors, et cetera.

And it turns out later that yes, that individual had died during the near death experience.

So that's one very interesting connection between the two experiences, which is kind of lesser explored.

Right, So if we take this at face value, what is a crisis apparition actually signify in your research?

What do you what do you think?

Well, for me, the crisis that apparition is one of the kind of fundamental vertical human experiences.

It's a natural human experience which seems very to more often than not, and to be honest, I have seen very little cases where it is not the case accurately or suggest the occurrence of a distant death.

So what you're seeing is a concordance between the inner world of the individual and the external world.

This is the kind of.

This is a kind of a synchronistic moment, which is very challenging to kind of explain under kind of our current ideas of how mind works and how and its relationship to matter and our kind of philosophical materialism and its kind of basis challenged by these experiences.

So for me, it's fundamentally it's fundamentally a common human experience.

And to be clear, that was the goal of this book, was to show that it wasn't just late twenty late nineteenth century Victorian England and Germany, et cetera, et cetera, where these experiences are so common.

These experiences are common throughout the world, and the legends, the myths, the tales, the folklore, this is a common human experienerience, which, to be honest, even today, like I've had many hosts tell me during interviews that they've had this kind of experience, and you will kind of when you come into conversation about these experiences.

Often individuals will kind of say, oh, I've had an experience like this, but I've never told anyone, for example, And there is that kind of obvious, you know, shame attached to explaining these experiences, but not just that, there are also they're also very private, personal, meaningful experiences which the individual doesn't necessarily feel the need to share.

So yeah, absolutely, I actually, yeah, I get that, because who's going to believe you that your loved one came and visited you, you know, and and then they died.

Those who are not open to these ideas are going to look at you sideways exactly exactly, And.

If you'll allow me to say like that, there are kind of some deeper mysteries to the crisis opperation itself which I find interesting and I could draw the listeners at ten two Also is that, like, for example, for me, the fundamental mystery is that the individual who in many cases have never had a quote unquote hallucination in their entire life, happened to kind of perceive the form of the individual who does actually happen to be dying at a distance at the very time they die.

That's the fundamental mystery.

But it actually goes a little deeper, guess.

Right, So let's go deeper when we continue.

Daniel Burke is our guest tonight.

I'm Jeremy Scott.

Somewhere between the paranormal and.

Abnormal into the paraormal.

Parent Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

I'm Jeremy Scott.

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Thanks for those of you who are doing that to appreciate you listening to the podcast, but we appreciate wherever you're listening, even if it's on the radio side of things.

Daniel Burke, our guest tonight, apparitions at the moment of death, the living ghost and legend, lyric and lore.

You have found these crisis apparitions in almost every culture and part of the world.

As we're saying, and you were telling us right before the break, please continue.

Absolutely like I was going to.

Yeah, I found these experiences like in every culture, among indigenous scribes, among the kind of rarest law of the least non saints, for example.

One area you find many of these accounts are in the lives of the saints.

And it'll be very easy to read an account in kind of an Irish higiography.

This is a biography of a saint, of an account of Saint Columbus, for example, who exits exits his meditation, enters the room where his brothers are eating, speaks to them and tells him that such and such has departed for Heaven at this very moment.

And later this news comes that this individual had died at that moment.

It may be very easy for maybe the individual to read that and think this is just a tale, this is just something to kind of bolster the sanctity and power of the individual saint.

And don't get me wrong, it is and can be, but we need to be very clear, these are very real experiences which individuals still undergo in exactly the same form.

And I was going to speak to just a little deeper aspect of the mystery of these experiences is that it's not just that the that the the experience, the timing of the experience matches up with the timing of the death, but often the individual form of the apparition displays, for example, the nature of their death upon their form, whether it's a type of wound, or it could be the clothing even that they're wearing at that time, which later turns out to recorrect.

And if you'll allow me, it goes even slightly deeper than that, And this is something I'm working on at the moment, which that, for instance, we know certain aspects of apparitions in general from near death experiences, from general encounters with these forms.

Okay, one of them is that they often appear younger than at the time of death.

This is something we have very commonly.

Now we could look at that and kind of theorize if that's the case, and if the apparition was a real external thing that is not entirely dependent upon the individual's mind, wouldn't we expect that during a Christ's apparition, when you don't know you're looking at a ghost, you would still see some cases where they appear younger if it's not solely mind dependent.

And as it happens, that is the case.

Even when even though the individual doesn't know they're looking at a dead person, in many of these Christ's operations, they may still appear younger.

They may still communicate telepathically, for example.

And to wrapple my point very quickly, the basic point is that not only the timing matches up, but there are idiosyncratic similarities between the two kinds of apparitional forms which connect the two together in such a way that strongly suggests externality in my opinion.

All right, so you say that these apparitions that appear to people in these moments of death are of all ages.

Oh, absolutely one during many after death communications.

If we consider the mother who dies at the age of eighty six, for example, during this and you know she's dead and you're grieving, and you may have the experience of meeting her again in the kitchen, for example.

The apparitional form, she appears maybe in her prime, in her thirties, in her forties, for example.

This is very common.

The hair is no longer gray, the wounds are no longer there, the disease is no longer there.

And of course one could appeal and say, and one did appeal to kind of expectation fulfillment.

Of course, maybe they would appear that way.

It comforts the individual.

The problem is that during the crisis apparition, in many cases the individual apparition also appears in their prime, maybe in their thirties or forties.

However, the experience here has no indication that they're viewing the form of a dead person.

So my point is that the fact that that form is expressing a very idiosyncratic aspect known of apparitions, while it is unknown to be an apparition, that's a very interesting mystery that's deeply under explored in this area.

Interesting.

And you say that these are brief encounter.

Usually very brief, and this actually comes out in the folklore, the legends, the literature too.

So, for example, we had the David Belasco example, which is very brief.

The apparition spoke a couple of lines and then left.

You may, as I said before, you may get no words.

You may just get a waving goodbye.

For example.

But you could look to the folklore of northeastern India, for example, and there a child is awaiting their turn of her mother from from fishing.

It turned, as it happens, though, while the child's mother was fishing, she had been killed, obviously unknown to the child.

That night, however, the child's mother comes to the child in a dream and tells her, quote unquote, you are waiting for me, but I'm no longer alive.

You find many of these counts in northeastern India.

You can go to Japan and find the same.

In a folk tale that was published in nineteen o eight, for example, we have a man named Yoichi whose closest friend agreed with him that if they would if one would ever die, they would come to the other in a dream.

And as it happens, he awoke one night.

He awoke the night that Yoichi had died, and WHICHI very clearly spoke to him the words I am no longer a living man.

I am indeed your friend Yoichi spirit.

So the very basic messages.

You may not know this, but I died at a distance, and later these facts are confirmed.

It's the same across cultures, across time, and it will be the same into the future.

People will continue to have these experiences and very likely somebody that you know, But.

No return appearance right by these apparitions, right, because individuals only die once.

They would not appear as a crisis apparition to us more than once, or would they.

It's interesting because there are cases in the literature where there's a couple of things to say here.

Actually, it's an interesting question because there are cases in the liture where a there are multiple appearance appearances leading up to the deaths.

Now, I don't have this account in my book, but from the top of my head, there was a very interesting account wherein the individual had I believe, three encounters with the operational form of their loved one who was dying at a distance the initial and in each kind of each form suggested the kind of the progress of the death from the crisis to the death itself.

So you can have multiple appearances of an apparition during these Christ separations.

And to expand on that further, for two quick points.

One is more than one person can experience this at the same time.

These are collective crisis operations, and there are other Christ operations wherein multiple people at different locations will come together and kind of realize they've all had an experience of this at the same time of the individual's death in and around the same time.

So, yes, to answer a question, while it's very rare, these things can occur kind of more than once.

All right, interesting and in many different forms.

Did I understand you correctly when you said that earlier.

Yes, many different forms.

So, like.

The one of the more basic forms is just an intimation, a feeling, a sensation, a kind of a knowing the individual.

There are cases in.

Some of the work of the Ryans, for example, in The Gift, there are that's a book called The Gift, and there are cases in there where a mother is simply lying on her bed and she just awakens with the kind of in her words, like this undeniable sense that her son has died.

There's no necessary reason why, but it's kind of an overwhelming sensation.

It's like she's living in the fact that the person has died, and of course later it turns out they've died at that moment, or they may experience a sensation in their chest, for example, the heart and it turns out that you know, their loved one had died of a heart attack at that moment.

And then there are the voices.

There are many accounts for example, and these come out very commonly in the folklore, especially like Irish folklore and Canadian folklore, also where the individual maybe they simply hear their name spoken.

Often often in the tales it's three times.

Coincidentally, in our real story with blasco Ereer, it was three times.

It's interesting that turned up.

But yeah, there are there are vocal intimations of a dis and death also, and yep, that's what some of.

The are interesting.

Because it was about a year ago that I went on the air told the audience we had a you know, a death in the family.

It was sudden, it was unexpected, it was very very tragic.

And what I have not shared with the audience yet is that whether we want to call it a crisis apparition or not, because I don't know that there was a sighting or anything that was seen or anything that was communicated.

But there was a feeling from what I understand, that the individual had passed and that news had not come to pass yet in our household.

In fact, it was it was November twentieth of twenty twenty four that we experienced that reality.

So coming up now in a day or so, Yeah, so that one's hitting home.

I appreciate what you have shared with us thus far.

Tonight, we've got more time with Daniel Burke, so stick with us.

Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

I'm Jeremy Scott.

Into the Pair of Normal store.

He's open show off our brand with all sorts of items in the store at Pairodnormal Radio dot com.

There's a parallel universe.

Fil that separations.

While we received surreality.

Over the King, then the truth be known, it's all into the pair, into the par.

We discussed the subjects that defy explanation into the Pair of Normal.

Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

Our conversation continuing tonight with Daniel Burke, author of Apparitions at the Moment of Death, The Living Ghost and Legend Lyric and Lore.

We're also going to talk about telepathic tales, precognition and clairvoyance and legend lyric in lore during our second hour with Daniel.

These crisis apparitions that appear to individuals at the moment of death, before their death, maybe slightly after their death, in many different forms, very brief encounters.

Generally from what we've lear learned so far, so far across pretty much every culture and part of the world.

Are these both physical and non physical encounters because what I had or apparitions, because what I had, you know, described was not a physical sort of thing.

Individuals are experiencing non physical events, right.

Yeah, there's it's interesting because you know, like one of this is one of the kind of the big debates that raged regarding the nature of the operation in the late nineteenth century and hope into the nineteen fifties and sixties, was the kind of work of George Terrel, for example, like because and also there because the problem is that there are men well, there are many cases in which the operation, probably the majority seems to it seems to be suggest that the operation isn't necessarily physical.

It may glow to some extent and may move through an object, etc.

However, in many of these cases.

In fact, it seems to be in the majority of these cases the apparition itself is actually indistinguishable from a living person.

And this this is to the extent that, as we mentioned earlier, the individual is often not even aware they're in the presence of an apparition or a so called dead person.

So believable is the form for example, so whether or not they're physical or non physical, like for example, there are cases in the early literature where it's claimed that light lighting is blocked, for example, by the apparition, you know, backlighting maybe from a hallway after a door opens, for example.

And there are cases where like for example, I just read a case from the work of Evelyn else the Swiss author Evelyn Elzeizer's work recently, wherein during a crisis apparition, the individual claimed that they actually embraced their grandmother.

So it's not for me to necessarily say what is the nature of the apparition when there are so many conflicting reports, but it's a fascinating question.

One other thing that ties into that is, for example, if you look at the work of Celia Greene and Charles McCreery in I believe nineteen eighty, they wrote a kind of an overlooked work called Apparitions.

They've dealt with experiences in which the entire d during a hallucinatory episode, the entirety of the actual room itself was part of the hallucination.

So, in other words, even if you're seeing an apparition interact with the environment, they suggest that even in those cases it may be non physical because the entirety of the scene is potentially somewhat contrived.

That's why, for me, the interest is that something ridical occurred, something concrete, synchronistically tied your experience, whatever it's nature, whatever the nature of that apparition and its environment, et cetera, something tied that directly to the distant death.

It's that for me is the focus of my work and my books.

But I find most interesting.

Right, So, we're talking about visual apparitions, but also physical sensations, conversations, maybe emotional experiences, that sort of.

Thing, massively emotional experiences in many cases, like especially like there are many cases, for example, in which the individuals believe either their belief in the afterlife is bolstered by these experiences or it's engendered in the first place.

These kinds of experiences actually convince the individual so realistic they are, for example, are so like they're left they're often left with no doubt that this was really the mind or the kind of form of the individual that I love it.

It's unmistakable.

They feel it in their bones, they feel in their body that feel this specific connection and you know, so there there are case And for me, I found it interesting that there are many cases in the kind of olderly that kind of reflect this.

You can go back to ancient Rome, for example, where like what scholar Debbie Felton Delta called this a good example of a chrisis a person.

It was in seven sixteen BCE and was said that the individual who had the apparition which related to the death of the founder of Rome, Romulus, and he when he told others it kind of it assuaged them of their grief.

Okay, so what's interesting.

The interesting thing about the crisis that person is that it actually it helps people deal with the grief of the death itself.

And it's it's not enough to just observe that.

The sociologists may find it interesting to just observe that, but for me, it's interesting to say, well, why is it that I was so convincing.

It's because they they actually believed what was occurring represented what it's proposed to be representing.

They believe that this really is the form of their loved one appearing to them, and that's why they are quote unquote filled all with great joy and caused to return to the This is a saint's account, Almighty's testimony regarding the date undoubted beautifaction of their dearly seased patron.

Apologies, that has a bit confusing, But the point is that the same effects that are observed in the ancient literature still are observed today.

And this happens across vast distances, like people who are separated by hundreds or thousands of miles.

Oh there's yeah, there's no limit on the distances as relates to these experiences, you know, there are like this obviously speaks to like what is the nature of these experiences?

You know, what is the nature of mind?

How can such things occur?

Like aren't there aren't their speed limits in this universe for example?

You know, but no, in these cases, whether it's a woman in England having you know, having the experience of her son at war across the other side of the world, or someone in Vietnam, for example, dying on their mother in America awakens to their form at the very moment.

It's not in many cases not a moment after, it's not a moment before, it's the very moment of the death.

So it does suggest to kind of instant instantaneity, if you will.

And this kind of speaks more generally to the nature of what we have called telepathy, and it's why a lot of these cases are referenced as a crisis telepathy and whatever it is, it does seem to be instantaneous.

And maybe that's one of the reasons why mainstream science kind of keeps away from it to some extent, because if that's to be taken at phase value, it would it would kind of pose some issues in that regard.

Okay, so there could be a telepathic connection here that this uh, you know, when when you're when you're having one of these crisis apparitions, that telepathy is involved.

Or esp absolutely, And of course the individual somebody who thinks that telepathy is kind of restricted to a living mind may say, well, it can't be telepathy because in many of the cases they're dead.

But of course that assumes the nature both of death and telepathy to things which are great mysteries and will we shouldn't be so quick to put limits on it.

Does seem to be the case that, if anything, the fact that these experiences are so similar, either before, during, or after the death, would suggest that the process itself is external to the mind fundamentally, or at least to the limitations that we would place on it in relation to whether it's living or not, for example.

So I think it's important, in these cases, and in these areas where we know so little, too insomuch as is reasonable, allow the experiences to guide our research, rather than allow our ideas to guide the research.

All right, to Daniel work with us tonight, author of Apparitions at the Moment of Death and also Telepathic Tales.

Into the Pair of Normal.

I'm Jeremy Scott will continue with him in just a couple of moments.

Into the pair of normal, pair of.

Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

I'm Jeremy Scott talking with the Daniel Burke tonight, author of Apparitions at the Moment of Death, Living the Living Ghost and Legend, lyric and Lore and I'll so telepathic tales, precognition and clairvoyance and legend lyric and lore.

So talking about these, you know, the telepathic I guess connection here.

What is your research found as far as that is concerned.

Now, to be clear, are you referencing telepathy as it relates to the Christs Apparation?

Or am my general research on the second book?

Okay, well, this book, this first book, doesn't necessarily go into that in much detail.

However, I do have my own thoughts on it in regarding kind of my own reading and in these areas like, for example, like this book fundamentally, just for the interested listener, This book fundamentally deals with presenting hundreds of accounts of these app chrisis operations as they occur throughout cultures and throughout time.

This is something that I believe was kind of sready needed, and I hope that people enjoy it.

But the reation to your question, it seems to me that if we look at what occurs during episodes of what we call telepathy, whether it seems that people send receive messages instantaneously regarding the kind of state or nature of distant things.

So what we can say is that during your death experience, for example, the same thing seems to occur to these individuals.

So what can we take from that These individuals during your death experiences, they claim to discover veritical which is Greek truth telling.

It means truth telling vertical information regarding distant events.

For example, the individual who's clinically dead may, as I mentioned earlier, they may discover the death of another which occurred at that moment.

This is something that we in the literature associate with telepathy.

So from that we can say there is a connection here.

What is the nature of it?

I don't know, but it does suggest that whatever this phenomenon is that we aid the telepathy we call telepathy isn't necessarily dependent on a functioning brain and a living human for that matter.

So I think for me that would be the kind of the most of it go, the furthest out go.

In terms of drawing conclusions as to the nature of these phenomenon.

As they write to telepathy, what.

Are some of the most common kinds of esp.

Some of the most common kinds.

Well, actually, these experiences are certainly one of the more common kinds as relates to death.

However, there are many kinds like This is something that hasn't been picked up on a lot in the literature, is that, like many of these accounts, While many of these accounts gather around kind of death or crisis or events of great magnitude in the life of the individual who's either sending the message or who receives it, they also often pertain to relatively mundane events or events that we would consider mundane.

The individual may For example, there was a case of a woman who dreamed of her of her mother holding a specific blanket with polka dot pattern on it, a pattern that she hadn't seen or since she was a child.

It was her childhood blanket.

Her mother, as it turns out, arrived the following day with that exact blanket and brought that blanket over.

That's an example of a very kind of relatively mundane experience.

But these even these mundane experiences, as they're called, can kind of shake the individual kind of from their kind of world.

A psychologist David Leeder, he said that some often these people are forever convinced that a purely materialistic world view is untenable, and that was in relation to experiences that are relatively mundane.

So's it's both and both can be just as affecting as the other, which I find interesting.

All Right, So dreams, in your opinion, are a form of ESP.

Well, I wouldn't say that dreams are a form of ESP, but I'd say that dreams seem to be very conducive to experiences of VSP, like one of the most for example, like a very common experience.

And this is something that isn't in telepathic tales, however, it is in a sequel that I'm working on, and it's called Deja rev and Desia Visite.

Okay, So these are the experiences in which the individual claims to have dreamed of a specific place or person before having come upon them in life.

These are surprisingly common examples of what seems to be either, depending on the case, telepathy or clairvoyance.

Some may even say precognition, but I'm not so sure yet about those.

And these are very common accounts, and again they turn up in the tales in large numbers.

You'll find so many accounts in the lives of the saints.

Are the founders of famous cities like Mexico City, for example, who claim that they the spot where they chose to found the city and why they shows was because they dreamed of that spot before having come to it, and in the same way people today still say.

For example, there are many ethnologists.

There was one Brazilian ethnologist who claimed that he dreamed of the college that he went to many years before he actually went to it, and when he arrived there he realized, oh, this is the same place.

What does this mean?

I don't know, but it's very mysterious.

So, yeah, there are many different forms of these experiences, whether whether it's a dream or otherwise.

All right, what were those words you used?

It kind of sounded like deja vu, but it wasn't deja vu.

Absolutely, yeah, So deja reve which is the experience.

It means it translates directly as already dreamed.

It's an extremely lesser known kind of variant on the dja vu experience, and it sets itself apart very importantly.

And this is actually the subject of a book that I will be releasing in the new year in January.

This is the dajah vu.

Of course, as we know has already seen.

It's the sense that this has occurred before.

It's the feeling this has this moment has occurred before.

But it's not necessarily tied to an actual experience.

It's a vague sense of synchronicity.

Desiah reve is very different.

Dejah reve is, oh, I have dreamed of this place before, very specifically, I have had a vision of this place before.

Not only that, but maybe I have actually a dream journal where I had recorded this experience beforehand.

And there are often idiosyncratic details which are recognized such that, like I have, there are accounts in the work in the book that I'm working on where and the individuals claim that in real time they anticipated what was around the next corner, for example, based on the knowledge they attained in the dream.

So yeah, that's daja reven deja visit a very simply is the same thing, although it's as it relates, sorry, as it relates to places rather than people.

So they're very much variance upon the same phenomen in that regard.

I'm gonna throw one more in there.

We're just gonna confuse everybody tonight.

The opposite of deja vu is jamvu, the feeling that a familiar thing is suddenly strange, unreal, or unfamiliar.

It can occur when a familiar place, person, or word suddenly seems new, often due to a temporary disruption in the brain's memory processing pathways.

So do you think that has anything to do with some of these different states?

I guess that we if we want to call them that that people experience.

Absolutely, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I know the etiology and origins of each specific account that I collect, but I will say that certainly some of these accounts will be explained by more seemingly mundane for Marceene regions reasons.

These in the early days in France and in England in the late nineteen and even the late eighth sorry, yes, the late nineteenth centuries and even sometimes the late seventeenth centuries, these were the paramnesias.

These were the in memory and perception errors in memory and perception.

The issue is that you know, we're almost poisoning the well early on by kind of nailing down the fact that if this occurs, it's an error in memory and an error in a glitch in perception.

The issue is that we don't leave the door open for kind of other explanations which may actually be more reasonable to appeal to as regards certain aspects of the cases.

For example, there are often very idiosyncratic details that are discovered ahead of time, regardless details of these places, and sometimes they're actually recorded in journals.

There are a number of cases, and you'll I'll have to apologize it, don't have them to hand right now, but there are a number of cases in the book where the individual actually recorded these dreams in journals and the later experienced tallies with the dream.

For example, like there's a very there's an account.

Excuse me, there's an account in the Irish Times.

This is in resting.

Just to give that thought.

We'll pick that right back up when we come back after a bottom of the hour break with Daniel Bork into the pair of normal.

I'm Jeremy Scott, pair of normal news.

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People in every nation were discovering mind bending, Earth's shattering phenomena, telepathy ESP, mind reading.

There was something very legit, shall we say, about ESP.

It was uncontrollable, it was unreliable, but nonetheless it existed.

Telepathy is how these people who were contact that the communication occurs.

The truth is far more abnormal than we want to believe.

You're headed somewhere between abnormal and paranormal, into the pair and normal.

It's a lotpathy and ESP.

Talking with Daniel Burke tonight about his book Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance in Legend, Lyric and Lore, We've been talking a little bit about dreams.

I had asked whether that was a form of ESP.

He was getting ready to tell us about one particular account, so please.

Do so, Daniel, absolutely, this was an interesting account from the Irish Times newspaper, a newspaper from my own country in nineteen thirty one, and it was just a report from the Zoological Society at the time, and kind of as I write, and as I write it talked away near its furthest end was a reference to an interesting lecture on the interest and beauty of birds given by a respected theologian at the time.

This theologian his name was Reverend Canon Charles Raven, and he opens with a fascinating dream during this lecture, which occurred during the Great War.

He says that while staying in France in nineteen seventeen, he dreamed quote unquote for many nights consecutively of birds nesting upon the rocky shores of a little island.

He says that whenever he would reacquaint himself with sleep after waking, the vision would persistently return, seemingly wishing to impress itself upon him.

He made a very clear this one in the place he recognized, and this is what's interesting.

He was Fifteen years later, Raven was invited to Dublin Ireland to Trinity College, which is a renowned college here, and his friend took him to a place called Ireland's Eye, which is a very small island just about a kilometer off the coast, and he writes of that experience quote unquote, there he saw the spot of his dreams, with the rocks and the spray beating up the cliffs, and myriads of seabirds supremely careless of his presence.

So this is a typical experience of dreaming ahead of time.

And this was fifteen years ahead of time, which is quite interesting to me.

And if you learn me to quickly expand like well, we in the West would very simply refer to some sort of glitch or error in memory, which of course it may be.

If we could look at a tribe, for example of Indonesia, the Trajans, for example, they have a type of dream called a tindo, a true dream, and in their worldview, it's very common for the soul to kind of exit the body during the night and kind of travel of its own accord and to specifically visit places it's never been before.

So for the terraton, if they have the experience of data visiting it's very easily explained in their cosmology.

Oh it's my soul has probably been here before, for example.

So it's just a matter of the individual's worldview how they explain these experiences.

But obviously more scientific research would be interesting to do.

In these areas.

Very little has been done as relates to dayja is it a specifically?

What do you think that is?

I mean, to really any of these phenomena in particular.

Absolutely, I mean there was huge interest I say huge, but I would say very significant interest in these phenomena, in these telepathic phenomena, in these so called thought transference phenomena as they were called by in a psychology in and around its formation, and even the likes of Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud like Young reported and multiple experiences of this kind of in his work.

Like he excited an example of a student of his.

His father had promised him a trip to Spain if he passed his final examinations, and the young man actually dreamed of walking through a Spanish city where the streets led to a square and a Gothic cathedral.

He turns a corner and sees an ornate carriage drawn by a couple of cream colored horses before awakening.

Carl Jung, in his work on synchronosity, specifically recited the dream that the sorry He recited what followed that dream, which was if you'll allow me to follow.

He wrote that shortly afterwards, having successfully pass examinations, he went to Spain and recognized the very city of his dream.

He found the square, he found the cathedral, which exactly corresponded to the dream image.

He wanted to go straight to the cathedral, but he remembered that in the dream he had turned right, and therefore was curious to find whether his dream would corroborate further.

Hardly had he turned the corner when he saw in reality the very carriage with the two cream colored horses.

So yes, there has been huge interest in this historically, but in our own times there's very little interest.

And why it kind of it's fundamentally, in my opinion, it's fundamentally that we have in academi in Western academia, these deep materialist biases.

You know, brain equals consciousness, consciousness equals brain activity.

You know, ghosts equals hallucination.

These very basic assumptions that would have to be the case if everything kind of materialized in the brain, for example, and it's just biases.

And I mean imagine going you can imagine in being in Harvard and asking could I study, you know, whether or not the crisis operation I experienced is actually a real thing.

It's not necessarily going to go down well with a lot of people.

But there is increasing interest scientific interest in these areas from many different quarters.

But again it is still relatively small in the grand scheme.

So when we're talking about, you know, telepathic tales, this is anything from a premonition, say, something that could happen, maybe a warning, or even a synchronicity, right.

Absolutely, like one of the whatever.

One of the interesting experience types in telepathic tales, for in my opinion, is the Norse vardogger.

The vardogger.

This is a premonitory sight or sound of a person's arrival.

So these are experiences which may take the form of a vision or dream or an intimation of another kind, in which the individual claims that, for example, they knew they dreamed that somebody was actually coming to their home or about to arrive, and as it turns out they were on the way, or in some cases it turns that they had actually intended to leave at the moment of their experience, but decided against it.

For example, and there are so many examples of this kind in the book.

For example, a folklorus named Barry Tolkien.

He worked among the Navajo Indians, and he gave an account from nineteen fifty six in which he was driving over three hundred miles from Salt Lake City to a reserve in Utah.

When he arrived, he found that the old Navajo woman he knew was already preparing food for him.

This is something very common in these accounts, that food is prepared.

Upon speaking to her regarding his arrival, she said, quote unquote, of course, that's why I cooked up all this food.

Tolkien, as he says, expressed great disbelief, noting this woman had no way to know they were coming, no electricity, no phone, or even windows.

As I write, the rather measured folklores had no doubt these things occurred, although he made very clear that difficulty in explaining them.

And to be clear, there are dozens of accounts of ethnologists, anthropologists, explorers, social scientists in journal arriving on indigenous indigenous shores or among native communities and being greeted as if they were known to already have been coming.

For example, Elmer Miller, this is an anthropologist in Pennsylvania.

He gave many accounts.

He gave multiple examples of this kind in the note section of his book kind of Hidden Away.

In the footnotes in the Grand Czechoregion of South America in nineteen sixty he briefly pointed out that a practicing pastor of the Toba people had a vision of their coming the night before, and that they set out and he said in raising to this vision, he wrote, despite more than a year in this cultural milieu, I was perplexed.

We got a powd Daniel Burke tonight with us.

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We're talking with the Daniel Burke tonight, author of Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance and Legend Lyric and Lore.

I'd like to have you finish up your thoughts as you were discussing right before the break and then interested in hearing about you know why you got into researching till up the ESP and also crisis separations.

Absolutely so as making the point that although it's been less collected together in one place, many ethnologists and anthropologists and social scientists, they report experiences which are indistinguished from such that I believe that the same as what we consider in the West kind of typical ESP experiences.

And I gave the example from South America regarding knowledge of a visitor's arrival, the visitor being the ethnologists himself.

And what's interesting is that like you find the same thing everywhere.

For example, George Waldron wrote in his History and Description of the Isle of Man, which is between Ireland and England.

He wrote this as he wrote that as early as seventeen seventy four on this phenomenon, writing that as difficult as I found it to bring myself sorry just to go back a little bit he Waldron always found himself surprised when upon visiting a certain friend, the food was already out, the table was already spread, everything was in order to receive him, and he had been told by the person that he had knowledge of his coming by quote unquote good natured intelligences.

Okay, and Waldron whites the following just in the same way that Tolkien had written this occurs.

But I don't know how Waldron in seventeen forty four had written that this is a fact.

I'm positively convinced by many proofs, but how or wherefore it should be so has frequently given me much matter of reflection.

So from hundreds of years separated, we see people encountering the same phenomena and having very similar reactions to it.

And to get back to your to come to your the second and third part of your questions, Like I will kind of redundantly say that the reason I got into the second book was from the first book.

It was during the research for the Apparitions at the Moment of Death that I kind of began to because I was reading so much technology, anthropology and journals, etc.

I came across so many stories that I realized were indistinguishable from what had been collected by parapsychologists in the last one hundred years, for example, And I just felt the need to put this in front of the interested reader.

I don't want to tell the reader what it means.

I don't want to kind of you batter the reader over the head with anything other than the information itself.

And just to see it all one place is interesting.

And why I got into the actual Christ's apparition in the first place, that would be related to my interest in in your death experience, because, as I said, people have those experiences during the end, So it was all just kind of a natural law of interest from one interest to another.

What effects would you say some of these experiences have had on the individuals?

I mean, crisis apparitions can be very shocking if you're seeing a family member and then you realize that they have later on past.

You know, telepathic experiences esp.

May not be as much shocking to the core, but they can both all of them can affect individuals.

Absolutely.

There are like there are like there are a wide variety of kind of reactions to these kind of experiences, obviously, and depending on the individual.

And again It's kind of like any area of human experiences.

It can be good, it can be bad.

It can be positive or negative, but even those are not naturally necessarily mutually exclusive.

For example, in many if you look at a lot of the literature relating to negative near death experiences, near death experiences in which kind of very frightening, un settling things occur to the individual not at all, but in number of those cases, the individual later clarifies that despite the nature of the experience at the time, you know, I now take these positive benefits for it.

I now see why it had to be that way.

For example, like my for whatever reason, my.

Receptivity to these experiences was going to was always going to take this form, for example.

So like and again, when you talk about the effects, I mean, while it's kind of lesser spoken about, like fundamentally these kinds of experiences, they really do.

They really do shake the individual from the mondanity, if you want to use that word of ordinary life we're talking about in a moment, in a flash, the individual's entire relationship to the cosmos can change on a dime.

The individual can go from I don't believe that those exist, for example, or that there is an afterlife, or even that there is like necessary meaning to this life, you know, to there actually is or there could be.

It seems like the universe is actually extending an olive branch to these individuals, you know, giving them the opportunity to kind of meditate upon their preconceptions regarding the nature of things.

You know, these are very powerful effects, and they're very less, very little studied, especially for example, amongst social scientists, who very rarely comment upon these kinds of experiences as they relate to after like beliefs for example.

So yeah, they can.

The experiences range from you know, a shrug to fear to fundamental change in the individual.

Would you say with any certainty that these experiences have a commonality to them?

It sounds like the answer to that might be yes, because you have found them across many cultures dating back quite a long time.

Is there a commonality here with people experiencing everything we've discussed tonight.

Absolutely, Like I would say, there are kind of fundamental commonalities, and then we can kind of speak about more general things when debate, because like the for me, the fundamental commonality again speaks to the real interest of my work, is that human a natural part of the human experience seems to be the capacity to obtain accurate information regarding events that are occurring or have occurred at a distance.

Okay for me, that's the fundamental that if you look through all the accounts, through all the periods of time, as far back as the ancient Egypt, even to some of the Sumerian tablets, you know, the fundamental aspect is that there seems to be this capacity shared among humans.

We can then get into the kind of specific similarity between between accounts.

You know, the apparition may behave similarly between you know, across cultures for example.

Uh.

One very quick example comes to mind would be I looked at many of the Norse sagas, the kind of great poetic ed as and writings of the of the Scandinavian countries for example, and Iceland, et cetera.

You know, there during the Christis operation, many of the ghosts they appear, if they died at sea, for example, they will appear wet, if they died at war in the mode for example, they will appear with mood upon them.

Okay, Now, then you.

Can go thousands of years later, many hundreds of years later, certainly to for example Ulster in Northern Ireland, where the individual informant may say that you know, I saw I saw my son who was at war.

I saw him in my front garden, walking across the walking coming around to where he had to get in the back door.

So I went to the back door to see him, opened it.

He wasn't there anymore.

But however, however, turned out that he when she saw him, there was mud Aliver's uniform, and later it finds out that he had actually died in a trench with Mode Oliver's uniform.

The point being that the same idiosyncratic observation upon the ampersion is made many hundreds of years apart between two separate parties.

Fascinating conversation that we have had tonight with Daniel Burke.

I'm afraid it does have to end right here, but I do look forward to having him back at some point in the future.

Daniel, how does the audience contact you anything you'd like to promote?

Sure?

You can find the work apperson of the Moment of Death or Telepathic Tales on Amazon, and you can find me on Twitter.

Sorry X these days near underscore death, underscore fe and now that'll be.

Me fantastic Daniel, best to you.

I really enjoyed our conversation tonight.

Likewise, appreciate you having me on.

And by the way, Burke is with an O B O U r K.

In case you're searching in Amazon and you don't put the O in there, I'm sure if you put in apparitions at the moment of death or telepathic tales, you probably would get there eventually.

But of course you can just go to pairabnormal radio dot com click the show's section.

You'll find the links to Daniel's work right there, as you will for any of the episodes on our website.

We appreciate you going to pairnormal radio dot com.

And if you are interested in getting the show commercial free, that's available through our Premium membership.

It's just five dollars a month.

But otherwise the show is free to listen on any of the podcast apps, So make sure that you find us wherever you listen, and to give us a follow from the cold, dark depths of a secret dungeon somewhere deep in the remote Pacific Northwest until we talk next time, friends, somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.

I'm Jeremy Scott, good night and God bless facta user churcher