Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books.

Hi.

I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.

This week, we're kicking off spooky season with one of my favorite authors, whose new horror novel, Girl Dinner, is out on October twenty first.

And you guys, she ate with this one.

No, literally, she ate.

The question that I'm having with you, the reader is what do you want to do with your feminine power?

What will it look like for you?

What does feminism look like moving forward?

Because we do not.

I do not want to be part of feminism that cannibalizes itself.

I want to be part of something that is ready and willing to do the work.

You probably already know our guest, Olivi Blake, or maybe you know her by her other name, alexin Feral Falmouth.

Either way, you've definitely felt her presence.

She's the mind behind the cult favorite fantasy trilogy, The Atlas Six, and she's written everything from Ya to adult speculative fiction Say That five Times Fast to short stories that live rent free in readers' heads.

Olive does it all, and she does it with edge.

Her latest book, Girl Dinner takes a bite out of the patriarchy.

It's a darkly funny, deliciously twisted novel about wealthy moms, sorority girls, and a sinister new wellness trend that's about to consume them all.

It's satire, it's horror.

It's feminism with teeth.

So if you're craving something clever, something subversive, and a little unhinged, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the page with Olivi Blake.

Hi, Oliviy, Welcome to the club.

Hi Danielle, it's so nice to talk to you again.

Now we get to talk about your upcoming book, Girl Dinner.

My mind immediately when I opened Girl Dinner went to the title because it seems like the name carries a few meanings.

I obviously went to TikTok because girl Dinner was like a big meme on TikTok.

What is your ideal girl dinner?

Are you a sweet and savory cracker girl or are you a chocolate kind of girl.

I think it can't be sweet because then it's not dinner.

You know, like that you have to have girl dinners so that then you can have dessert.

Honestly, sometimes my girl dinner does consist of just chocolate or ice cream, though, and I'm.

Like, I've had I've had the dinner.

I've had my dinner for the night.

You know, and that tracks and I actually do think that many times over the course of my sorority life, there were many times we went to yogurt Land and yeah, someone would say something like there's fruit, so it's dinner.

So like, for me, this is this this Yeah, this definitely the whole idea of girl dinner felt right to me spiritually.

I was like, yes, this is speaking to me in some way.

It was just that it also happened at the same time as like the clean girl makeup trends and coquette core and the Barbie movie, and I was like, what are we doing here?

What is girlhood?

And I think that's what got me started on this idea of like, wouldn't it be funny if I did a satire about a cannibal sorority called girl Dinner?

And it really just started as a punchline to a joke.

The title carries so much weight to me, and we're going to get into that a little bit later because I think there's you're actually saying a lot.

By just saying those two words, we jumped right in for everybody who's listening who hasn't read the book yet.

If you were writing a shelf talker for this book, you know, like the little cards at the bookstores that they'll often attached to books, what would it say?

I mean?

The thing, the kind of one liner that I keep using for this book is because often people ask me what the genre is.

It does seem like a horror novel, but I don't think it goes so deep into horror.

It's more to me, it's more of a psychological thriller.

So I think the line would be that it's not about the act of eating, it's about the decision of who to eat.

Oh interesting, What is the deeper meaning of that to you?

Well, I think it's uh.

At some point, I just gave up reading books by men, not altogether.

Occasionally I will read I will read books by men, but I stopped prioritizing them in my reading and just started focusing on, like what was interesting to me that women were writing.

And I was starting to notice that a lot of the books that are like domestic in nature or that have to do with the feminine experience often involve the aspects of nurturing that have to do with food.

There was one book in particular that stuck out to me.

I think it's called The Margo Affair, and in it, the character has, you know, some it's a very mother daughter conflict, and the daughter was conflating like culinary skill with being a good woman or being a good one or good mother means that you can like pull together a meal from anything, you know, and it's it got me thinking about, like what does it mean to nurture?

What about food is specific to womanhood?

The fact that we're supposed to create something this tableau, you know, like a good woman is able to do these things, and yet those things are considered innate, especially you know, with the rise of tidwives and wellness culture, and there's this sort of conflation of like the divine feminine is is the woman that can provide with food?

And I started to wonder, your ability to put food on the table for your family is not celebrated by anyone, right, Like that's not like it's it's a thing.

It's a thing that as a woman, as a mother, you have to do every single day that no one is ever going to celebrate you for the no one is ever really going to take seriously, and yet it is defining you.

There's this whole idea that Miranda July brings up in All Fours that you can essentially find yourself in the most progressive marriage in the world.

You can think of yourself as the most progressive feminist in the world.

But if you're a woman married to a man and you have a child, then those gender roles are forced upon you.

You no longer have a choice, and so it's like you cannot break out of that shape.

I knew when I sat down to write this that the first scene was going to be this extremely chaotic and yet very normal dinner scene, that it was just going to be the family sitting down to dinner, because once I realized that I had a child that didn't really like to eat, it took away a little bit of the joy that I had always found in cooking.

I've always I've always enjoyed cooking.

Sometimes I have a mood disorder, so some days like I want to make art and I can't really do it, and making food is kind of close enough.

It's like if I just if I can get creative in the kitchen and I get to eat it.

It's a win.

We can call that a win.

And then I had my son, and my son is not really an eater, and it's not even that he's picky.

He just like doesn't care about food in a way that's very hard to predict.

And he's also very small.

So I was having these every time I would go in for a pediatric appointment that I started to call them the motherhood exam, because no matter what they were saying about my son, it was really about me.

It was really about how I failed as a mother, what have I not done?

And a lot of times it felt like I am not providing for him sufficiently, I'm not doing enough because he was like, he's just pretty small.

He's pretty small on his growth chart.

So every night dinner was this thing that I started to really really fear and dread because it was like what can I do?

I was, you know, really really like overstressing my creativity, just trying to figure out what can I make that he might enjoy?

How can I make it so that he might like it?

And it felt like all of this was on my shoulders, And so I wanted the first chapter to feel sort of like the pilot episode of The Bear where it's just like, oh my god, this is a nightmare, Like just there's just so much going on, there's and I wanted that first chapter to feel like that sort of terrible experience of it's just dinner and the worst part of it is that we're going to have to do it again tomorrow.

And so that was the feeling I wanted to bring to that first chapter.

And I have no idea what the beginning of this question was.

Well, let's just go here, because so much of this book is about food, and I think like a metaphor for hunger, both literal emotional cultural.

I kept thinking like, what are women allowed to consume, yes, versus what we're not supposed to consume.

And you mentioned that one of the main characters is having a really hard time feeding her baby.

Obviously that's something that you came from a personal experience.

I also took some of this food stuff as like cultural conversation about surveillance, because I think, at least in my experience, we're scrutinized for eating too much, eating too little, eating the wrong thing, eating the wrong way.

Did you want to hold a mirror up to that tension at all.

Oh yeah, definitely, And it was something that I wanted.

I wanted to have that the feeling of stress.

So the other thing about this book, I had just sort of pitched it as a punchline.

There had been a lot of cannibalism books that had come out around the time that I was thinking about this story and how to think about the way that I wanted to do it a little bit differently.

The kind of like the feminine meltdown, you know, was kind of the general area in the market that I wanted this book to be.

But I also wanted it to be the kind of thing that you could theoretically read in one sitting that it's one of those like really nauseating, like I kind of wanted to be over, but I have to know what's going on.

I wanted that to be the experience of reading it, And so I had to kind of pick and choose what do we really deliberate about and what do we really dwell on.

So there are sometimes there are sometimes When I was writing Nina, who is the younger character, She's the nineteen year old sophomore, and in a lot of ways, she's this sort of blank slate coming into coming into the house.

She's the hunger of girlhood in a lot of ways, and she just she wants all these things for her life and she doesn't really know how to get them, but she understands that the house is one way to do it.

That, Like, a lot of the book is about what is feminine power, what does power look like for a woman, what is the ceiling on power for a woman?

And also what is real power for a woman?

I wanted to I mean, oh god, there is truly so much.

Because I also wanted to talk about kind of the poking fun of the idea of like, oh, beauty is power, but is it really or is it just something you're selling to me?

You know, like that we live in a time when when a lot of the messaging we receive about what is power for women, especially when it comes to like sexuality or beauty, like what is that actually giving us?

And so I wanted to have some moments when at least one in the characters was like, I've decided that I don't care about this, Like I wanted the I wanted the moments when all the women of the house were together to not be focused on food in a negative way.

I definitely wanted all the food moments in the book that were coming from Nina's perspective to be like about loving the food, about oh I love this meal, Oh this is so good, this is so decadent.

I'm allowed to want these things.

I'm allowed to have these things, versus the way that Sloan looked at food as an obligation, as something that she was meant to provide, that she was on her own to provide.

Really, you know, I think Nina says it at some point in the book that it's very hard because because Thinness is such an such a who do I want to quote?

For this?

Sable Young in the book Die Hot with a Vengeance, which is a great title and it's incredible book.

Also, it totally totally reshaped my participation in beauty culture.

Let's say, although I read it after I wrote Grilled Her, but Sable Joan says, there are four tenets of Western beauty.

It's whiteness, like racial whiteness, thinness, hairlessness.

And youth.

And I was going into it with like the understanding we all understand the thinness, we all we all understand the pressures of this, but let's just put that down for a second, like, we can't, we can't feel all the pains of femininity at one time, So let's have Let's have the moments where like we're all together, where we are not feeling surveilled, where we're not like where we're not performing our femininity.

And those are the moments when Nina and her sorority sisters are alone together.

And I think there's something very pure about those moments too.

I wanted them to feel free in that sense.

So I just read a substack article on modern feminism that Christiana Bake Medina wrote, and at the end of it, she says, question I keep returning to, is this, How can I, in good faith demand of any woman that their career or life decisions speak to some higher moral purpose, some bigger and better ideological project.

Isn't that futile?

Ultimately, I can't say if blank person is good or bad, conservative or liberal.

What she does feel like, though, is inevitable.

Inevitable meaning that all of these women, including me and you, are recognizing those four ideals that you mentioned and still having to play into it, play into the game to sort of survive, have a career.

And I guess the question I keep coming back to is how much am I willing to play into it?

And how much feels like it's eating at my soul?

Do you ever think about that?

I do?

Actually, this is one of the things that that motherhood has done for me.

Sometimes my son will watch me get ready and he'll ask me why I'm doing certain things, And if I can't give him an answer that I'm like, like alarm bells go off, you know, it's just like, oh, I actually, I actually don't know why I need to wear, you know, whatever element of makeup or do some sort of skincare thing.

If anytime I have to stop and ask myself what am I doing?

That feels like a moment to sort of understand am I enjoying this?

Like at some point I was just like, why am I shaving my legs?

What is this doing for me?

And so on the one hand, it kind of feels okay to stop because whatever, who's looking at my legs?

Who cares?

But there's like, at this point, anyone who's looking at my legs is too close to me, Please go away.

But but you know, there's there's other things and and and as related to sometimes the thing about die Hot with a Vengeance that spoke to me specifically because Stable Young is a is an Asian woman.

She brought up things that I had forgotten about, like the fact that when I was growing up, there were all the articles that were like how to make your blue eyes pop and how to make your green eyes pop, and it was like, if you have brown eyes, I'm so sorry, I guess you could do this.

And there was nothing specifically about you know, Asian features except to say like, oh, here's how to emphasize the crease or whatever.

And so sometimes when I realize, like, oh, I'm doing things with my eyeshadows to specifically emphasize the crease or whatever, or like putting on mascara but not eyeliner to make my eyes look bigger, I'm like, what am I doing?

What weird ritual am I participating in?

The important question really should be like are you enjoying it?

Are you having fun?

Right?

Like, there's I'm not going to judge anyone who is who is doing these things.

This is what I hope about Girl Dinner that like, it's not judgmental of feminity culture.

It's not that these things are not enjoyable.

It's not that girl dinner isn't fun.

It's that are you having fun?

Or why are you really doing this?

Who are you doing it for?

And what is the actual return that you expect on it?

Because if you are doing anything, and this is the thing especially you know, looking at like the rise of Childwives and these very conservative ideals, what is this doing for you?

And if it's reliant on someone else's power, if it's reliant on your husband's power, if it's reliant on a man, then it can be taken away from you.

If it doesn't come from you, it can be robbed from you at any time.

So it doesn't really exist.

And so I guess the overall question of girl dinners is who are you doing this for?

I love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week.

It could be a fun quote or anything you've saved on Instagram, or something you've texted your best friend, or even just a weird fact.

What have you bookmarked this week?

Oh my Goshugh, I just finished Flashlight by Susan Choy and I'm still kind of living in that book.

I woke up in the middle of the night because like, there's character that is definitely like the purpose of this character is to kind of give you a hint as to the larger narrative.

But then I realized there was no resolution for that character.

We don't actually know what happened to them.

And I literally woke up in the middle of the night, like what happened to tom So?

But I also my mic here is sitting on top of the next thing I'm excited to read Will There Ever Be Another You?

By Patricia Lockwood.

She just writes incredibly.

She wrote no one is talking about this, which is one of the most just most incredible books I've ever read, like can bring me to tears each time.

And I don't know, I'm trying to think if there was like a specific line, but she wrote this bit about her husband who had a perforated bowel, and there's just a bit about the bowel guy.

And there's just times when I become aware that Patricia Lockwood like doesn't have an MFA and is like totally self trained, and the bowel guy is one of those examples just like she's just a natural genius.

I sort of see this book as part of a lineage of other books like Beauty Sick, which is one that changed my life.

I think it's very interesting that you chose to write this narratively.

Where do you see Girl Dinner fitting?

Is it a part of the lineage of the books that you mentioned of beauty Sick?

Is it a rebellion against it?

In any way?

I talk about Girl Dinner as being the continuation of a conversation that is ongoing.

For me.

The conversation I'm having is largely in response to books like Fleischmann Is in Trouble by Taffy Bordessa Ackner, and also a much older book, The Best of Everything by Rona jaff and these books and kind of the Barbie Movie to an extent too.

That's just like the come to this conclusion that it is not possible as a woman to have it all.

And I'm also observing that young generations, and you know, I've referred a couple times to like things that are tradwife core, you know, they are i think genuinely interrogating the question of like, well, if it's not possible to have everything, then should we just have one thing?

Really well, but it's also doing it in a way that's very it's doing it in a way that feels traitorous to me, it feels like a betrayal of the feminism that brought us here, because feminism, the thing that allows you to celebrate your individualism, that allows you to go as far as you do and then decide that you're done, comes from the work and the resources that were provided to you by the women of the generations before us, who had to fight for all that.

I mean, I think it's I guess it's been long enough now that a lot of young women have forgotten that it wasn't that long ago that women were not allowed to have credit cards or their own bank accounts, and that if you can't have access to your own money, you do not have access to anything.

I mean, it was not that long ago that it was traditioned to receive jewelry on your wedding day so that you could get out of dodge if you need it to.

And so I think it's both a sympathetic observation for young women, like I understand why you're looking at the girl Bosses and you're looking at the lean in and the you know, the whole the wellness culture, the bubble that burst, you know, as like, yes, well that was always stupid.

I think it makes sense for a young woman to look at all that and be like, that's ridiculous.

I think it was part of that like hope culture that we all sort of bought into at the time, and it had its pitfalls.

Because ultimately, the only feminism that will succeed is intersectional feminism, right Feminism that leaves other women behind, Feminism that leaves women of color behind, that leaves marginalized, disabled, trans women behind, it will not succeed.

But at the same time, the alternative of just like retreating to the divine feminine, that's not power either.

So you know, I'm glad that girl Dinner starts a conversation because I don't think that it ends the conversation in any way, right Like, it just kind of it poses a lot of questions.

And then I hope the question that I'm having with you, the reader, is what do you want to do with your feminine power?

What will it look like for you?

What does feminism look like moving forward?

Because we do not I do not want to be part of feminism that cannibalizes itself, right like, I don't want to be part of feminism that's actually just capitalism.

I want to be part of something that is ready and willing to do the work, and to know that that means you don't get to just be myopic about your feminism.

You don't get to say this is just about me and what I deserve.

You mentioned the Barbie movie.

One of the early reviews that came in really made me laugh, because I do think it's kind of true.

They said it's Barbie meets Yellow Jackets.

I mean, there's the ones that I've mentioned so far.

I definitely I saw, I watched the Barbie movie.

I did my own personal Barbenheimer on a cross country flight.

I enjoyed the Barbie Movie for what it was.

And I also, you know, just before I forget, because I want to say it, I don't think that anything is truly feminist if it does not also address the way that men are done a disservice by the patriarchy like that.

Yes, well said yeah.

I think a lot of people went into Girlden are thinking this was going to be a really, you know, anti men kind of book, but of course it's not.

I love a man, I have a son.

It's just as important to me that men are not held to the gender constraints that they are as well.

But anyway, which is just something I have to say because you know, I think it's important.

I think it's important that when we talk about feminism we also talk about what that means for men, and that we give men a role.

The reason that that came to me because I was obviously thinking about Ryan Gosling in the Barbie Movie, you know, and I think there was a lot of resulting discourse from Barbie that was probably overall a good thing.

Like I don't think that the Barbie Movie is meant It's not meant to be a seminal piece of feminist media.

You know, it's it's it's it is introductory feminism, but it is also the first time that a lot of people are going to have that conversation.

It is both an imperfect text and not trying to be the source of all of all feminist theory.

So so I think, you know, I was kind of living in this sort of quiet space after I watch it, of being like what did I want from the Barbie Movie?

And I think that's where Girl Dinners sort of fills the gaps.

It's where like, okay, well, girl Dinner is coming from the perspective of someone like Sloan who already implicitly understands the Barbie movie right, Like she's already got that, Like that's that's very much that's girl boss theory.

Like we learned that in you know, the first semester of Womanhood, And so what we want to talk about now and what does it mean and what does it mean to move forward?

Which was really the big question.

For ol of E.

Blake fans.

Do you think that they'll see an all of these signature in this I think it's.

Both a departure from my usual work and very much in line with my usual work.

I don't really know how to explain that.

It does feel like a departure for you, because it's not fantasy, it's not sci fi, it's not ya, it's not romance.

To me, it's very much grounded in this pop culture phenomena in this moment.

It's also satirical, which felt like it could have been a really intimidating choice, because if readers don't understand that it's satire, then the whole intent and purpose of the book disappears.

And yet there's some very real elements of the book.

It takes place on a college campus, It centers around a sorority house.

How did you go about building this world, and also what aspects of wellness did you want to really exaggerate and what did you want to keep very true to form.

I definitely there were some style choices made, because like, I only refer to the sorority house as the house, even though it would have Greek letters.

But I didn't want it to feel too I wanted you as the reader to feel like this all made sense to you, that you have some version of the house in your head, and so I didn't want it to feel like those doors were closed to you if you had not been in a sorority.

And I like the fact that the characters all refer to the university and they are strongly implying a certain type of university.

But I didn't want to give that campus a name, or I wanted it to feel like wherever you went to school or whatever was like the kind of school that you hold like.

I wanted all of this to populate in your head, however you imagine it.

And a couple of times my editor was like, we need to show time passing, like can you talk about the weather changing?

And I was like, I'd rather not just because like I went to USC, weather didn't change.

That doesn't mean that, like this experience of the university was different.

So there were different There were moments when it was like I kind of have to geographically locate, but I'm also going to try and find a way around that, like, oh, the era is getting slightly more chilly, but like, I'm not going to describe.

I think someone asked me to describe what they were wearing, and I was like, no, because I didn't want you to be pulled out of the narrative by the sense that this is foreign, even though of course it will be its sorority life.

But it took a while for me to realize, like once people started calling it dark academia, I was like, oh, I didn't really think of it that way, but I guess that it is.

I mean, what is a sorority if not a secret society on a university campus.

Is just not that secret, you know.

So I was in a sorority and my experience with my sorority is one of those like it's one of those complicated things, right.

The Greek system as a whole definitely has a racial bias.

It definitely has like some gendered traps, but at the same time it was really it shaped me as a woman to be in a space that was only for women, and would I tried to capture those, like the little things about that experience, Like there were times in my sorority.

I remember that the TV room was like right inside the door basically, and so you would kind of walk into whatever everybody was watching, and it was almost always Law and Order SBU.

And I find this so interesting now.

I read an article at some point about why women love SBU, and I really think it is because the crimes were predominantly against women and the people who committed them got caught, and like in real life, that doesn't happen when men commit sexual crimes against women.

Nothing happens for the most part, And so I think it was like this weird wish fulfillment, Like not only did we want Benson and Stabler to like take their clothes off, we also were like, oh my God, like these women who would not be taken care of in real life are actually seeing some accountability.

I think that was part of what the appeal was.

But I definitely remember that at least once we watched s You just all day long, and people would just cycle in and out to go to class.

But like it was just like we were just all there being together watching spu and like that's that was an experience that is so fundamental to the way that I understand womanhood.

Now.

It's so funny you say that I was in a sorority and the show that we would watch was The Hills and it had been on like we were just rewatching it, yeah, over and over again.

And my mom was in a sorority, and she told me that they would watch soap operas that this is like very much a thing that sororities do every generation.

Yes, that's that's really cute.

I love that there must be something bonding about it.

I think that there is, and I think it's also the idea of like I want to be I want to be together and I want to feel I describe it in Girl Dinner as the feeling of rest.

That's just like there, I don't have to perform for anyone right now, Like I am not performing my womanhood in this moment.

I am existing in it because there are other women in this room.

Yes, you know, I come from the era of the cool girl.

Like when I grew up in in the aughts, you know, in the in the two thousands, and the understanding of what it was to be a woman was like, I mean, just insane thinness.

You know that you would have had to for the low rise jeens and the like the cool girl, the girl who laughed at all the guys jokes even though they were sexist.

I really tried hard to be a guys girl.

You know, it's it's kind of overplayed now, but the whole like the cool girl like eats a burger and doesn't care, even though like I definitely cared a lot and probably starved all day if I was going to eat that burger.

And and so I think that's that's an awareness that I brought with me because one I was in my sorority, I felt like that was the first time that I understood that female friendship could be different.

You know, I grew up in an era of course when and it's probably still true that people are like, well, groups of women are very catty and they can't get along, and there is I definitely still have sometimes had this feeling that like if another woman and I are sort of filling the same feminine archetype, we can't both be there.

One of my friends likened it to like at the superhero meeting, if we're both the same kind of superhero, then one of us has to leave.

So I talk a lot about this, the fallacy of scarcity that as a woman, there isn't room for all of us, or like there's only so much power and so we have to grab that for ourselves.

And that's another thing that feeds into girl Dinner, this idea of like, Okay, well, if it's like it doesn't actually have to be scarce.

It's your decision.

It's your decision to go along with that fallacy to believe that mythology that is defining what you see as power, But it does not have.

To be that way.

You're reminding me of a book I read in college called Guyland by Michael Kimmel, and it was the first time I felt seen because I grew up in a very similar era to you.

I'm thirty four.

And he said that the millennial men were raised to like girls, not women, because women have opinions, women have wants and needs, and in order to be the cool girl, you had to stay a girl.

You were never allowed to become a fully formed woman.

But there's like this pageantry I think that you talk about in the book that's it's like pageantry and punishment.

Yeah, and it's women performing perfection.

You're asking the question like, are we performing perfection for each other just as much as we are for men?

Do you see that part as sat tire or is that truth disguised an exaggeration.

I definitely wanted to talk about feminine policing because I do think that.

I mean, I think there's there's the optimistic view that you know for people who are for women who are married to men.

If you ask your husband does he actually care about most of the things you do?

The answer is probably no, Like is your desirability contingent on you wearing mascara?

Probably not right?

And why do you do it?

And I think a lot of people would probably give the answer for the women around you.

I definitely sometimes have thought when I'm going to pick up my son, like, what are the other mothers going to think of me?

If I go the way that I currently am?

And I definitely think it's true that the worst the worst bullying I ever received was at the hands of women.

Growing up, I did not feel very protected by women I think I often felt that, like I was very you know, they say women tend towards shunning, like that the social response is for women to shun, and I think that happened to me a lot, But I don't.

I think that as I've gotten older, and I think as I've come to the conclusion that like, it doesn't have to be that way, you don't have to again perform your womanhood in that way, holding other women to this weird, random standard.

I think the more I guess, the more I started to ask myself what am I doing, what am I doing, and why am I doing it?

The more I started to become aware that I don't I don't have to participate.

I just don't.

I just don't.

I know, I still haven't answered the question about satire.

I definitely wanted girl Dinner to be funny.

I definitely wanted there to be moments that you're just like, this is so ridiculous, Like there is actually the line I can't girl boss under these conditions in the book, and I wanted that to be kind of like the the whole book is very like I'm just a girl.

Yeah, Like I you know, we're because because you're such a smart and wonderful interviewer.

We're having the opportunity to really dig into all the things that I wanted to say.

But I know the book, I think is a different experience.

I don't want people to feel like they're walking into an academic lecture.

No, the book is really fun, easily digestible, no pun intended.

But I just I can't help but ask you these questions because I think so I don't get to hear a lot of people peel back the layers of current day feminism.

If I can ask you about the tradwife aspect of it, because you did.

You've mentioned that a few times.

I think the book skewers tradwives, and I would even say, mommy influencers a little bit.

I think what you're saying, you tell me, But what I felt was like you're showing and you're describing how seductive these images are while also trying to like say something about how the internet shapes female longing today.

The satire is in the hypocrisy.

It's not that I have a problem with women who who do enjoy the hearth, you know.

It's not that I have a problem with women wanting traditional roles.

I have a problem with people who make their living on presenting those traditional feminine roles when you know, a lot of the tradwives are married to rich men to not just like not just mildly wealthy men.

I mean, I think Ballerina Farms is married to like what the son of an airline or something like, We're talking extreme wealth and these women are turning them into business empires.

I think there is a problem with Cloud.

They have true jobs, yeah, not just one job, they have true jobs.

Yeah.

No, this thing that you're doing on the internet is a job.

You're a working mother.

You are not a trad wife.

Like.

That's I think where the satire lives is in the dissonance that it's just like, yeah, it is.

It is acceptable, it is understandable, it is to be seduced by those images because they are work.

They are someone's labor that like they were put there for you to consume it in this way, and it is being presented to you in this way because someone is making money off of that.

And I think that's like, that's yeah, that's where the dissonance lives.

That's what I'm really criticizing is what I'm specifically so angry about is I am so so betrayed by white feminism, by conservative feminism.

You know, it's just it's to present this lifestyle as if it is as as rewarding as you say it is, while also chipping away the possibility that any other woman can have what you have.

That's what's so, that's what's so upsetting to me.

It's what's so upsetting about watching, you know, the wives who don't speak, the wives who just silently support when their own rights are being stripped, when their daughter's rights are being stripped, Like there's something So that's where the nausea comes from.

That's where it's just like, look at how ridiculous this is.

How can anyone say these things with a straight face?

How can you tell how can you look me in the eye and tell me the birth control is a bad thing?

You know, it's just a like, how could you be where you are if you didn't have all the women who gave you those rights to begin with, who fought for those rights to begin with, And for you to just spit in their face in this way to make sure that no woman who comes after you can have what you have is repulsive to me, which is so funny.

Haha.

That's where the joke is.

Isn't this hilarious that anyone would do this?

I feel very similar to you.

There's this Virginia Wolf quote that I have written in my office and it says, no need to hurry, no need to sparkle, no need to be anybody but oneself.

And she wrote that in nineteen thirty one, and I have that as a reminder every time I do an interview or every time I'm about to tackle something big, no need to be anyone but oneself.

And the reason I'm bringing this up is I think you tackle performance in this book so well, performance of perfection, performance of womanhood.

Who would you be if no one was watching?

I know that's a big question.

What would change?

Yeah?

I have something similar in my office.

I have a thing that says, what does it say?

I was not born to be subtle?

And I think, yeah, I think that if I were not performing, I would love to be louder.

When you say louder, what do you mean?

Do you mean more opinionated or more loud about your opinions?

Yeah?

I think just in all aspects.

I think that what I learned in terms of how to be palatable as a woman, as a semi public figure, is just to turn the value, turn the volume down on a lot of things.

I don't often get as angry as i'd like to be.

I don't.

There's a lot of things that I don't say on social media that I would love to.

There's lots of times when I'm like, I'd love to freaking just shout this thing into the void.

I'd love to just yell this.

There's so many things I wish that I could say that I know will not be received in good faith.

I wish that I could be the version of myself that people would accept because they know it comes from a place of good, or of trying to be good, or of trying to be authentic.

But I know that that's not the reality.

I know that people are not I know that people are not just looking at me.

People are looking at most women in bad faith.

People are looking at most women for what's wrong with them.

And I think that's the part that we all have to live against.

The thing that we're living.

We're living with the knowledge that our actions are being in interpreted in the worst possible way.

And so I think that there are a lot of things that I would want to do or say or express that I know that I can't because they will be interpreted badly.

I think Sloan is the character that makes me think of those ideals most.

She's the older one, she's a new mom, she's struggling under the weight of what a good woman looks like.

And then I guess you sort of it's not a foil totally.

But you have Nina, who's the younger sorority girl as you mentioned, who's really talking about the possibility of perfection and power.

Did you write this for the Sloans or for the Nina's.

I wrote it for both.

I definitely.

When I went into this, I thought, this can either be a book about Nina or a book about Sloane.

Like this is either for the millennial women who are in the same stage of life that I am, and we're looking at the world that we were promised vers this is the world we were delivered and being like, well what now you know that that's obviously it's very pertinent to my stage of life, but also a large percentage of my readership is that young woman their Nina.

They're very online and they are seeing the same things I'm seeing it, but without the question mark benefit I think of, like understanding how much of what they're receiving is propaganda.

Like I think that the good thing about being a millennial is that we didn't have to grow up with the surveillance of the internet, we didn't have to grow up performing for the audience of the internet, and so on.

At least some level, we understand that there are some parts of our private lives that don't have to be shared.

And I don't think that's as true for gen Z.

I think I am talking to both women, and I think I'm having the same conversation, and it comes down to the thing I'm saying about, like this, this is a conversation that's being had in good face.

This is I love you millennial women.

I love you gen Z.

But what are we doing?

What are we separately doing, and what are we doing together?

And like where do we go from here?

Okay, we're coming up on the end of our conversation, which means it's time for speed reads.

So okay, we're gonna put sixty seconds on the clock and see just how many rapid fire literary questions you can get through.

I have a feeling you're going to be great at this.

Three.

Two.

What's one literary trope you would ban forever?

Oh?

No, all tropes inform the way we read.

We need to have them so we can write against them.

Is there any literary trope you would defend with your life, one that you love?

Oh god, well, I mean I love enemies to Lovers.

I will always defend it.

Favorite work of sat tire, It could be any form of media.

The story short story Edward of Unique Achievement by Evelyn Wagg.

What's a book that best captures motherhood?

Oh?

Oh god, oh my god.

Oh so many, but Night Bitch by Rachel Yoder is definitely definitely up there.

It's up on the list.

What's your favorite literary feast scene?

Oh?

One of the books that inspired Girl Dinner in terms of like women and food is it's by Oh my god, Vladimir by Julia May Jonas.

I think, what's a book you wish you could read again for the first time?

I guess I'm going to say no one is talking about this by Patricia Lockwood because it just came.

Up, OLIVI.

I've always felt like you write perfectly for TV or philm I always want to see your books come to life on screen, but this one in particular I am holding out hope for because I want to see all these girls feast.

Okay, yeah, So thank you for writing this.

It was really such a joy to read.

Thank you so much, and thank you for the conversation.

It's always amazing to sit down you.

And if you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials.

We're at Reese's book Club on Instagram serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic.

And I'm at Danielle Robe Roba y come say hi and df me And if you want to go nineties on us, call us.

Okay, our phone line is open, so call now at one five zero one two nine one three three seven nine.

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Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcast Its executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe.

Production is by ACAST Creative Studios.

Our producers are Matty Foley, Aliah Yates, Brittany Martinez, and Darby Masters.

Our production assistant is Avery Loftus.

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