1 00:00:02,173 --> 00:00:03,040 [Trailer] WS: I need 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,680 to tell them what colour they need to paint the wall? I mean, 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,080 just paint it the colour that you want it to be. I mean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares? 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,200 [Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:20,160 a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs. 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,960 We’re already well into the second season of this project, and in almost every episode we’ve 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,440 mentioned the pace of construction, and the development of the built environment in China 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:38,000 over the last decade. So it’s about time we had an architect represented in the Mosaic. My guest 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,040 today grew up in Belgium, is half Flemish and half English, and works alongside her Dutch husband, 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:50,240 and you’ll hear how she integrates a European perspective into the story of her life and work 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:57,840 in China. We cover the rest of her intro very early on in our chat, so let’s get on with it. 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,280 [Part 1] OF: 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:05,680 Let's just introduce you properly. So you are the chief architect? What's your title? 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:12,640 WS: Yeah, you could say that. I’m the owner, kind of I’m the owner, kind of Co-Owner and 15 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Chief Architect of AIM Architecture. OF: How do you spell that, aim? A.I.M? 16 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,880 WS: A.I.M. OF: Great. Well, thank you so much for 17 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,800 coming in, Wendy. Oh, I should probably say your full name as well. So you're ‘Wendy Saunders’. 18 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,520 WS: Yes. OF: So what object did you bring that 19 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:32,000 in some way describes your life in China? WS: This one, this object. 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,320 OF: I'm intrigued, I have no idea what I'm looking at. So tell me what's going on. 21 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:42,560 WS: This is a sample of an object that we wanted to make for a project. And we never made it in 22 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:49,040 the end, because it became too complicated, and stuff like that. But it's a rubber mould. And 23 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:55,440 we wanted to use it for a seat of a chair. So we did a lot of testing with that. And in the end, we 24 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,080 did the full rubber one, which of course is then too hard to sit. But it was kind of also a funny 25 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,280 thing, maybe you don't need to sit, it's just kind of an object to have in the house. And I kind of, 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:11,680 in my head I called it ‘The King Seat’ because of the crown-y spikes. But it's very uncomfortable. 27 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:18,320 So it has this kind of duality to it, right? OF: Oh, I see. So it's about being high profile, 28 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:24,000 being high status, but also inflicting pain. WS: Exactly. Why I brought it here, 29 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,440 is because it really shows what was interesting in the beginning, what always fascinated me 30 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:35,280 to be in China. When I first arrived as an architect, it was just, everywhere on the street, 31 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,720 people were making things. You used to have a lot of these small stores and small little workshops, 32 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,240 and you had no clue what they're really making. But you could just feel it everywhere, 33 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,960 they were doing things and making things. And that was really exciting, everywhere 34 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:56,320 people were producing stuff. And now we're part of that community, of course, because we make a lot 35 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:03,920 of furniture, or pieces, or things, and interiors, or buildings. So it's a big part of what is China 36 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:10,080 for us. And I remember also, kind of, our first office tables that we made, we made on the street. 37 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,600 This guy, they used to make window frames, and we just thought “How cool is that?” To kind of just 38 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:21,840 design a table that is made specifically with the stuff that he has. And it was it was really fun, 39 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,720 to make something like that, which otherwise you would never do. Because he just did it with the 40 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:32,160 pieces that he had in the shack, kind of thing. OF: Yes. That is a great jumping-off point, 41 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,840 because I think you've just described one of the conflicting things that you have 42 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,960 to do as an architect: to balance the style, with the practical use, right? 43 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,200 WS: Yes. OF: You have these huge 44 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,600 buildings and you think “Oh, no expense spared, look at this amazing shiny building”. And then 45 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,840 you realise “Oh, wait a minute, the quality wasn't quite what you first expected”, right? 46 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,320 WS: Yes, that is, I think, the constant dilemma here. But to be on the positive side, 47 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:02,960 now it is changing a lot, I think that the quality is improving immensely. And also the knowledge 48 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,680 of technology, and the knowledge of how things are made, is also really changing a lot. Because in 49 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:13,440 the beginning, I think a lot of these workers - these construction workers - they come from 50 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:20,480 the countryside, they have no formal education whatsoever. And they used to come to work for part 51 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,520 of the year when the farm was not doing well. And they used to work in construction. And that was… 52 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,800 Some people in the team, of course, were knowledgeable, but actually a lot of people, 53 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:37,200 who actually were making the things, did not have any construction background, or… There's not a 54 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:43,520 school that you go to learn construction, or masonry, or anything like that. So 55 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,280 if you start thinking about it, it's very normal that they had to go through that whole process. 56 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:53,520 OF: Well, we're touching upon this subject, but let me ask you outright then. So 57 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,760 what is the state of architecture right now? WS: Well it's doing extremely well. 58 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,720 There's so much going on. And again, the evolution that we've gone through, or that I've seen… 59 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,680 When we arrived, and we wanted to start a small practice, it was really very difficult to find a 60 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,560 client, and to actually have a few staff to actually support you. Because nobody wanted 61 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,160 to work in a small company, it was totally not interesting for them, everybody would 62 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:25,760 want to work in a 500-people company, because it was secure, and that's what China at that 63 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:31,040 time was. And if you see now, there are so many independent smaller designers, architects, and 64 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,400 they've travelled, they're better educated, or they're educated abroad or wherever, but they're 65 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,560 really very interested in what's going on. OF: Let’s go back to when you first came. So 66 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,640 explain what the world was like in China then. WS: There were just a lot of changes going on. 67 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:52,880 And I think everybody was quite surprised and astonished about the tabula rasa that 68 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,800 was going through, with little respect - at that time - of the old, maybe. 69 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:04,320 Which again, now is totally changed, which is great. I don't think at that moment 70 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,480 I dared to judge it, because you also don't really understand it. I mean, the conditions that a 71 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,600 lot of these buildings were in, were also not great. As a tourist, you pass by and think “Oh, 72 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,320 how cute”, but actually the conditions for the people who live there are not really… I mean, 73 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,495 you would not want to live there. OF: Yeah. 74 00:06:21,495 --> 00:06:26,880 WS: So maybe many things got destroyed that shouldn't have, but it is also kind of like 75 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:34,160 an evolution of learning. And I think we - in Europe, anyway - it took hundreds of years to 76 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,480 go through that. Well, here they did in such a short time. It's kind of normal, 77 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:44,720 it’s kind of learning through doing, basically. OF: Mmm. Which is something you can say about 78 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,960 China writ large, across everything. WS: Yes. 79 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,840 OF: It’s this trying, iterating, failing, making mistakes, trying again, making new mistakes… 80 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:53,520 WS: Yeah. OF: And in your world, 81 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:58,880 these are building-sized mistakes, right? WS: Yes. But it makes it also kind of a bold… 82 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:06,640 It has a boldness to it, and it’s also… Architects in Europe - I can only speak for European 83 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:14,560 architects, but - they're very serious. You know, they think they can change the world. And 84 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:22,400 in the back of my mind, I also still think I can do that. But it makes everything very serious, 85 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:29,840 and you don't take things lightly, because it has this huge responsibility to it. It is. But on the 86 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,680 other hand, you know, not everything has to be liked by everybody, not everything has to be… 87 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,680 Things can just sometimes be a little bit off, or a little bit weird, or a little bit funny. And 88 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,400 it is also OK, it kind of also makes a city, a city. It makes the urban fabric a lot richer. 89 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,280 In the beginning, when I came to Shanghai, the neon was amazing. I loved it, you know, 90 00:07:53,280 --> 00:08:01,360 it makes everything so happy and so vibrant. And it was, for me truly, like this cliché of Asia. 91 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,480 And then when I went to Europe, it's so boring. OF: Right. 92 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:10,080 WS: You know, everything is so quaint, and so perfect. Or they try at least to be, 93 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,720 you know. And if it's not perfect, it’s derelict. There's not really a lot in the middle. 94 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:22,560 And I think this kind of freedom, a little bit, in a city is very refreshing. And I think that 95 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:28,800 that liveliness, when I came to China, gave me a huge sense of freedom as a designer, actually. 96 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,120 OF: Right, how interesting. And I guess it's also a consequence of, 97 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:38,080 as you've already mentioned, the fast pace of change. Where you see it happening before you, so 98 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,560 it's much more obvious to talk about, right? WS: Yeah, in Europe, I remember when… Before 99 00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:47,840 coming to China, I lived in Amsterdam. And when we left Amsterdam to come here, 100 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,640 they were redoing the Amsterdam station, and it was like a huge building 101 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:59,520 pit. And they were doing the second metro line, or something. And I think 12 years later, 102 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:04,400 they were still doing exactly that. And they were still building the second metro line. Well, 103 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,320 when I arrived in Shanghai, there was a Number 1 and a Number 2 line. And now how many do you have? 104 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,320 OF: Fifteen? Yeah. WS: So it was just this constant, 105 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,840 looking, going back and forth and thinking “Wow, you know, 106 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:25,760 what are we doing?” Of course there's a dark side to that, especially in interiors - which 107 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:31,440 is also what I also do - the speed, and things that get built and knocked down, 108 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:39,440 is sometimes shocking in the sense of how much waste it creates, and how much energy it wastes. 109 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,840 And I think that is something that not a lot of people think about. 110 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:51,040 But I think it also does change when it's about making a clear business plan, or… It used to be 111 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:56,800 “I'm just going to do this”. And “I'm just going to take a chance and make a little store”. But 112 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,520 they had no real idea what they were going to do with it. Or didn't really do the numbers 113 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:08,080 properly. So they failed. And I think now because things have gotten a lot more expensive - also 114 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,160 construction has gotten a lot more expensive - which is a good thing, because people think 115 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,040 maybe a little bit harder about “What do I really want to do?” And “What effect will it have?” And 116 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:24,240 “How will my business be sustainable, at least for a few years?” All these factors will bring change, 117 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,880 and I think, in the right direction. OF: Yes, you could build anything before, 118 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,640 and it would somehow still make money, right? 119 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,160 WS: Yeah, exactly. OF: But now you've got 120 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,680 to be more conscious of, well, “What is it?” WS: Yeah exactly. You need a more of a plan, 121 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:40,240 an idea. And it's not like that anymore, that you can just make money… 122 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,680 OF: … by default. WS: Yeah. 123 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:48,960 OF: Yeah. So how did you start your business? WS: I was working for a company, which was 124 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:54,960 really nice. And I got really well paid. But I was a bit bored, because I just didn't really 125 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:01,440 feel that I could bring so much to the table. And so we thought “Oh, why don't we just do 126 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,720 some freelancing competitions, and try to get some small work?” Which was really hard at the time 127 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,760 because nobody knew us, nobody wanted to work with us, we didn't have any 关系 [guānxì] or anything. 128 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,440 OF: Right. WS: But then we thought “OK, maybe we need to 129 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,240 stop doing these competitions, and try and get some small work, so that we can build our 130 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,760 portfolio, and have some fun building something at least”. And we met our first client, it was a 131 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,000 friend of a friend who was a gallery owner. And he didn't really have a lot of money, 132 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,920 and we didn't have any work. So we said “OK, you don't need to pay us, we'll do 133 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,480 it for free. But you have nothing to say”. OF: Oh, so you had total creative control? 134 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,360 WS: Yes. OF: That's pretty good. 135 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,120 WS: Yeah. OF: So what did you end up doing? 136 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,800 WS: Well, the thing was that design at that time, everything was very glamorous and… 137 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,320 OF: Gold-plated… WS: Gold… 138 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,560 OF: Chandeliers… WS: A lot of marble, chandeliers… 139 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:57,360 what was seen as ‘Western’ at the time. And he didn't have a lot of money to build anything. “So 140 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:03,600 let’s just only build a few things, but then build them well”. So we left the space very, very raw, 141 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:10,240 and just built a beautiful mountain, to have the office inside and kind of have a stage. And then… 142 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,960 Now it would look very, very normal, because everybody's doing that. 143 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,480 But then at the time, it took a lot of convincing. And luckily, he was quite relaxed with it, 144 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,320 and and he was OK with it. But it would have been hard to do that for anybody 145 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,120 else at that time, nobody would have done it. OF: Right. And the aesthetic you're talking about, 146 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:35,040 is where you have exposed materials, you have… WS: Yeah, we left a lot of the space ‘as found’. 147 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:36,960 OF: Yes. WS: And built in some things. 148 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,880 Also, for budget reasons, but also because we just thought it was a lot more interesting to 149 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,240 show what was there, instead of hiding it. OF: With marble. 150 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,480 WS: Yeah, exactly. OF: Well, that allows me to ask you, then. Like, 151 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,760 do you have a specific design aesthetic? Or are you really at the mercy of what your clients 152 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:02,960 tell you to do? Like, what is that process? WS: We, I try to always find the essence of 153 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:09,120 what they're trying to do, it has a lot to do with the context of the space that you have. But 154 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,960 it also has to do with the client's vision, and the client's dream. And trying to really translate 155 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:22,400 that, as strongly as possible within that space. For example, then HARMAY, this is the cosmetic 156 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,840 brand that we work with. And the interesting thing with them, was that they came and said “We're an 157 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:35,040 online company, we want to make an offline store. And we really want it to be not too different from 158 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,720 each other”. But how do you do that? So we tried to create something that was a place 159 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,080 where things got sent out from, to the people that were buying online as well. So it became 160 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:53,120 a hub where online and offline came together. Basically, they just asked us to do one store, 161 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:58,640 and then we got on quite well together. And… OF: Who are they? They are Chinese? 162 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:05,920 WS: Yeah, two Chinese men. And they're very good at what they do. And they're very fast in reacting 163 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:12,720 to the market. They’re fast in how they develop their product, their branding, their marketing, 164 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,480 they just interact a lot with their community. And that's what made it very interesting to work 165 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,280 with them, because they always push you a little bit further, or they ask difficult questions. 166 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,200 OF: So with that as a starting point then, how did you translate that 167 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,880 into the finished product that you made? WS: You try and understand the brand or the client 168 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,440 And there's also a little bit of gut feeling, of course. One, you have organising the space, 169 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,880 which is just like how can people experience the whole area? But then you also have the whole 170 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,520 look and feel. And experiences, everybody's talking about experiences, 171 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,040 in interior or in retail. But experience is very personal, what I think is a good experience is 172 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:58,800 probably not the same as you consider a good experience. So it is also a very vague concept. 173 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,520 Also, like with this client, the first proposal we did for them - because 174 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,840 they were not clear, and maybe we didn't ask the right questions at the time - we kind of did 175 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,920 the proposal that was, they said “Yes, yes, yes, yes”, but by the time we were ready to build it, 176 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:22,000 they said “It's not us. We're not going to do it”. And we totally re-did everything. And it was so 177 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,480 much more interesting, because then we really… And they were totally right. And then you start asking 178 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:32,160 the real questions, and then you can try and make something real. It has a lot more layers than just 179 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,720 a simple kind of quirky fact… OF: Yes. 180 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,000 WS: … is maybe what I'm trying to say. OF: Yes. And you mentioned ‘real’, this 181 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,960 makes me think about the designs that look very good - especially if you think about social media, 182 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:48,240 it looks like perfection, right? - and then when you actually try and use it, 183 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,840 it doesn't work, right? That's obviously what you tried desperately to avoid. 184 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:58,880 WS: The thing is, you as a designer, you're human, you can make mistakes. You have the builder, 185 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,548 who’s human, who also might make a few mistakes. Things, especially here, can go quite fast. 186 00:16:04,548 --> 00:16:05,200 OF: Yes. WS: So there are some 187 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,960 things that are just overlooked. OF: And and then those mistakes can 188 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,040 aggregate very quickly. WS: Yes. For example, 189 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,960 in a hotel room or something, you do have sometimes drawers that don't open. 190 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,840 OF: Yes. WS: Or they were made to go open, but they 191 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,080 only go open five centimetres, because there's something else sticking out, there’s a wall 192 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,760 sticking out too far. And nobody actually looked at that corner, and things go too fast, or because 193 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,160 they just didn't make the drawing properly, or didn't think things through. But all these, 194 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,560 if you can imagine, all these little details need to be thought through, need to be designed, 195 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:42,000 need to be drawn out, and then built. So there's a lot of these things like… 196 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:49,200 Chairs not being able to sit at the table, because the leg is there. Or they didn't think of that, 197 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,800 or they didn't decide what chair to buy before they made the table. For example, 198 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,720 you know, and so you have a lot of these. OF: Yeah. Because I've been to hotels like that, 199 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,837 where it looks pristine, and then you go “Oops!” WS: Yeah. 200 00:17:00,837 --> 00:17:03,840 OF: And then, as the customer, that's kind of what sticks in your head, right? 201 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,920 WS: Yes, exactly. OF: Isn’t that funny? And 202 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,840 sometimes it’s something beyond your control, and yet you have to own that mistake sometimes too. 203 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,880 WS: Yeah. So there’s a fine line between over-designing, not designing, not caring enough, 204 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,720 yeah. There's a lot of grey there. OF: Interesting. And like, 205 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,320 I sense that we're talking about interior design a lot. Like, what is the difference 206 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:28,320 between interior design versus architecture? WS: I think there's a big difference. I studied to 207 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,680 be an architect, I didn't do any interior design before I came to China. And I was not interested 208 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:40,720 at all. In the beginning, I found it very trivial. I remember being in Holland and we built a house. 209 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,200 And then the couple that were moving in, they said “We've tried many interior architects, 210 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,880 but they all make it so different. And we really like the architecture, why don't you be the 211 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,356 interior designer for it?” OF: Ah. 212 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:56,080 WS: And I was like “What? Why? I need to tell them what colour they need to paint the wall? I mean, 213 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,480 just paint it the colour that you want it to be. I mean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares? 214 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,320 That was kind of my thought about it. But then of course, I realised It's not like that. So I don’t… 215 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,120 And it's extremely difficult, interior design, as well. I mean, if you do it well, it is extremely… 216 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:16,720 There’s so many details on it, there's so many thoughts and processes. And so I've really learned 217 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:23,040 to appreciate it. But the bigness and the boldness of an architecture project is really also very fun 218 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:31,120 to work on. And to be able to orchestrate how people use a building is really very satisfying, 219 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:37,520 as an architect. And to really kind of make an impact on how society can use a building, or 220 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,680 also the surroundings of it. The building has - or should have - an impact on its surroundings, 221 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,840 how you stand or use the space around it. And I think that is very interesting. 222 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,600 Now, for example, we're working on a 25,000 square metre medical resort in 温州 [Wēnzhōu]. 223 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,640 OF: Oh. WS: And 224 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:01,200 it's this beautiful landscape, a really amazing valley, and you stand there and you think “Wow”, 225 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,280 you know. First of all, you think “Why do we build anything here, it’s so beautiful”. 226 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 But then you think “OK, you know, people can come and enjoy this. And I want to do 227 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,720 a good job to respect what is there”. So you have this image in your mind, 228 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,720 you do something small and kind of light, but then you look at the programme, and it's so big, 229 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:27,040 I want the building to actually hover over the land. So, kind of, land and nature can just live 230 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:33,920 underneath this building. So we ended up with this huge, huge building, it looks so big. But 231 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,840 the choice of how we did it comes from that idea, that we wanted to have the mountain that it's on, 232 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,520 to actually still be the mountain. And we didn't want to kind of stick a big building right on the 233 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:51,840 mountain. So just by starting that idea has a very big consequence on how you design the building. 234 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,960 OF: This is the kind of thing that I think of, when I think of architecture, 235 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,240 it's this conversation between the building and its surroundings, right? 236 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,600 WS: Yes. OF: Do you see 237 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,160 the built environment, in general now, being a little bit more aware of that conversation? 238 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,560 WS: Yes, I think now a lot more people are conscious of where they build, 239 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:15,680 what they build. I think sometimes as a young architect, it's very tempting to… You know, 240 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,400 you have a great idea, and you're so proud of the idea, and “I just want to build it”. 241 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:24,160 And it doesn't really matter where it is. And that… You need to kind of stop yourself. Because 242 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,160 there are many ideas. And sometimes they're like, you know “Great idea, but we’re not doing 243 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,880 it here”. You know, just save it for another time. OF: Yes. And you're talking about your projects. 244 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,320 And I'm talking to you as an individual. But of course, you have a team. So tell 245 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,240 me about how you work in your team? WS: Well yeah, we have a team. So we 246 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:48,800 have like 35-40 people, and every project will have a project architect and small team. And we 247 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:56,880 have about 70% or 65% local, and the rest would be International. It's not always easy in that way, 248 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:03,120 because the different cultures, and different nationalities - and already personalities - can be 249 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:11,680 quite challenging. But for us, it's very important to have that. To have like, a conversation about 250 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:17,280 a concept or design, it's a very different conversation than the one that I would have 251 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,320 with friends that I went to school with, for example. One is maybe also generational, 252 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,120 but two it’s also background and everything. But it doesn't mean that it's less, it's just 253 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:31,840 very different. And you need to… Sometimes when, you know, you need to get something done, and 254 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,000 you’re a little bit under stress, you need to force yourself to be open at that moment, 255 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,280 to kind of have that give-and-take a little bit. OF: Yes, even as you're talking about it, 256 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,160 I can see you have this determination in your look. But then, you have to at some 257 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,600 point step back and say “Wait, you know, maybe I should listen to a different viewpoint”, right? 258 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:55,120 WS: Yeah. Because I'm also you know… I think designers, in any way, are quite passionate 259 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:01,280 people, and can kind of get emotional. So we tend to fight for our idea, or want to 260 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,440 explain what you do. So there's also quite a lot of talking involved. And sometimes you just need 261 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,560 to kind of… I also kind of jump in sometimes, and say “Ach, we should do like this”, and then 262 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,440 I need to… Then I go quiet. I’m like “OK. OK, you go ahead. What did you want to say?” 263 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,320 OF: Yes. WS: I need to really stop myself. 264 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,200 OF: I like that. That's the kind of creative tension that I think would exist in many different 265 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,840 environments, architecture included. WS: Yes. 266 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,204 OF: Thank you so much, Wendy. WS: OK. 267 00:22:30,204 --> 00:22:32,640 OF: Let’s move on to Part 2. WS: OK. 268 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,840 [Part 2] OF: 269 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,480 OK. Part 2, Wendy, are you ready? WS: Yeah. 270 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:44,400 OF: What is your favourite China-related fact? WS: I remember having this conversation in the 271 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:52,080 beginning, I was here with some Dutch friends that came to visit us. And I was convinced that Chinese 272 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:58,880 people, their hair never goes grey. After a while, I realised that actually everybody dyes their 273 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,560 hair. And even the men. And all the politicians and everybody, they all dye their hair black. 274 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,520 OF: Especially the men. WS: And the men! I mean, the women, OK, they dye 275 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,120 their hair already for ages, everybody does it. But the men. And this kind of fear of looking old, 276 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,720 it was something that really surprised me so much. Because on the other hand, 277 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,560 in China they respect the old so much more than we do in the West. So I really can't understand that 278 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,920 duality of it, I still don't understand it. OF: It's absolutely true. And it reminds me 279 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,920 of an interview we did last season with the Head of Research and Development for L'Oréal 280 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,920 here in China. And yeah, he said the same thing. It was about 281 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:44,320 how the market for hair dye has now moved from those men to women. But it started off with men. 282 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,960 WS: Yeah. OF: Question 2, 283 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,280 do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese? WS: I think everybody has the same, 284 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,720 no? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]. OF: 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ], interesting. That's 285 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,480 the first time in two seasons it's been said. WS: Ah OK, no I find that it used 286 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,400 to be said all the time to me. OF: Can you first explain what it means? 287 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,080 WS: Oh, it's like, you know “You can't do anything about it”. It's like “It's how the 288 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,040 cookie crumbles”, right? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]. So, any question that you ask somebody, like “Can 289 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:17,840 you do this?” “No, no, it's out of my hands. No, I can't do it, 没办法 [méi bànfǎ], I can’t". And I’ve 290 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,160 realised that I don't hear it that often any more, and then I thought “Why is that?” And I think it's 291 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,920 also because I've learned to ask the questions differently. Or maybe it's also changed… Society 292 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,800 has changed a little bit. Because for example, I remember buying a train ticket, years ago in the 293 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:38,000 train station, you would say “I want a second class train ticket to Nanjing” or something. 294 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:44,080 And they would say “No, sorry, sold out”. And you would be “OK. So is there another train?” And 295 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,000 then you would start, you know, rearranging your whole trip. And then you just realise that they 296 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,280 don't say “No, the tickets are sold out, but you could get a first class, or a third class ticket, 297 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:59,920 or a standing ticket, if you really want to go to Nanjing”. Nobody said that. So now I've 298 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:05,360 learnt to ask my questions differently. I would say “I want a ticket to Nanjing”, 299 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:10,320 and then they will ask me when, or what class it has to be, and then they will get me a ticket. 300 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,800 OF: Yes. WS: So it’s very silly, 301 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,880 but I've learned to ask, you know, “But maybe you can do it like this? 302 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,800 Or like this?” And you kind of give them options, how to answer things. And then 303 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,600 you get a lot more done. OF: Yes. I can't explain that. 304 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,040 But you are right. And I've been in Asia now for 16 years, not just in China. And I've experienced 305 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,680 that same thing where you ask a closed question, they'll give you a closed answer, yes or no. 306 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,240 WS: Yes. OF: There isn't this culture of “No, 307 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,840 but how about that?” WA: Yes. Exactly. 308 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,080 OF: I find like, how do I describe that? How do I attribute that to something? But yeah, 309 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,360 it’s a curious one. Excellent. What's your favourite destination within China? 310 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:55,040 WS: I have to go back… Like, before I had kids, I used to travel a lot more, I think. For me, 311 00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:01,120 the most surprising, then, trips that we made was go to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], to Kashgar. Just because, 312 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:08,240 the landscape is just amazing, so beautiful. But it's also such a different China. It's a 313 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,520 totally different people. I still remember very clearly the feelings that I had, 314 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,240 when I was there. It's just so surprising. OF: Yeah. 315 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,960 WS: Very different. OF: Next one, if you left China, what would you 316 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,480 miss the most, and what would you miss the least? WS: I have to say the spontaneity of living in 317 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,400 China, and the way things go so fast. OK, on the one hand it makes you very tired, 318 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:38,320 and it has a lot of other things to it. But I will miss that. It can accommodate so many things, 319 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,480 it’s so lively, and it's so flexible. And I remember when I first arrived, 320 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,880 I thought that was so amazing, that you don't have to make appointments weeks ahead with people. You 321 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:55,600 don't have to… It's not so planned out. And now it gives me another type of stress. But 322 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,480 that, I think, is something quite special. OF: Mmm. What about anything you'd miss the least? 323 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:06,800 WS: Yeah, the fact of being misunderstood, and the frustration of it, I think. 324 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,680 OF: Even now, how many years later. WS: Even now, still. And you're always 325 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,880 the foreigner, right? You're always a little bit, the one on the outside. That also gives 326 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,320 a certain freedom, and a pleasure to it. I'm not gonna lie about that. But there's also sometimes 327 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,000 something alienating about it. OF: Mmm. Is there anything that 328 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,200 still surprises you about life in China? WS: Oh many. Yeah, I think it never gets 329 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:37,760 really boring. You can't say life in China is ever boring. You walk around the neighbourhood where 330 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:43,040 you go every day, and you'll just see something totally new, and something new popping up. Or 331 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,040 you’ll notice something, people doing something different than they did five years ago. I was 332 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,800 going for lunch, and I just passed by this, this small little hole-in-the-wall. And you look in, 333 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:59,360 and it's this super cool little store. And it's like very trendy young people it it, in the middle 334 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:06,560 of nowhere. And you think “Wow, you can't imagine that happening even five years ago”, and it's just 335 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,000 always this, kind of, never boring place. OF: Yeah. OK, next question. 336 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,840 Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out? 337 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:22,080 WS: Locally, I think for 15 years, nearly every week I go to a local dumpling place 338 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,760 on 延庆路 [Yánqìng Lù]. And I think if you've been here long, you tend to kind of keep your - well 339 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,160 I do anyway - you tend to keep your life a little bit simple. You go to some places that you know 340 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:38,000 what you're going to get. And I find, like in work, everything is quite busy and stressful. 341 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:45,680 So I tried to keep my family life quite simple. OF: Mmm. What is the best or worst purchase 342 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,880 that you've made in China? WS: Because I'm a little bit 343 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,360 bigger than the average Chinese person. And my feet are a little bit bigger. So 344 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,960 I used to kind of try and squeeze my feet in small Chinese shoes. And I think “You know, I 345 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,320 can just do it, I can just do it”. And I'll fit it in, and I'll buy them, and then I would be like 346 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:12,297 walking, even just out the door, and I couldn't. You know… So many things that I gave to 阿姨 [Āyí]… 347 00:29:12,297 --> 00:29:16,080 OF: That's the thing, it’s… We're here in this amazing fashionable city. But yeah, 348 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,840 the sizes are not for us. WS: No. 349 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,120 OF: You can look, but you can't taste. WS: Yeah. It’s just that thing about 350 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,000 being the foreigner. The shoe is like… It kind of fits, but it doesn't really fit. 351 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:35,360 OF: No. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? WS: OK. I got this from a friend, and it's just 352 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,320 super funny, I think. And it always makes me laugh because it's just these 353 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,080 two women, fighting but not really fighting. But it's kind of this very… If you've lived here… 354 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,800 OF: Yeah. WS: …It’s so funny, because you can just 355 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,440 imagine that being your neighbour, right? OF: Yes. Next question, 356 00:29:53,440 --> 00:30:00,000 what is your go-to song to sing at KTV? WS: Maybe something from Wham!, or something. 357 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,160 Bring me back to my childhood. OF: Which is your favourite Wham! song? 358 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:12,320 WS: Oh, Club Tropicana or something like, you know? Or like a good 359 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,920 Blondie one would also be good. OF: Oh, well that would suit you 360 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,400 especially. You've got a little bit of ‘Deborah Harry’ about you. 361 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,840 WS: Yeah, a good Blondie would do, I think. Always does the trick. 362 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,760 OF: And finally, what about China related media or sources of information do you rely on? 363 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:34,880 WS: Well, for China news, I would just do like… WeChat is actually a very good source of news - or 364 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:41,360 is it gossip? I don't really know - but you realise, everything you know goes through WeChat. 365 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,280 OF: Yeah. OF: It’s kind of sad. 366 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,680 OF: It's the way that the question is worded. But increasingly, it's just WeChat. It just 367 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,480 shows how everyone just uses WeChat. WS: Yeah. And you sometimes forget 368 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,720 that people outside of China don't. OF: Wendy, thank you so much for that. 369 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,880 WS: My pleasure, it was fun. OF: The last thing that I would ask you, 370 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,880 is the same thing I ask everyone. Which is, out of everyone you know in China, 371 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,400 who would you recommend that I interview for the next season of Mosaic of China? 372 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:16,400 WS: My friend, YoungAh Kim. She's been involved in a lot of, like the youth culture and branding and… 373 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,760 OF: Right. What does she do? WS: Well, at the moment, 374 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:27,840 she's doing all the training wear in adidas, but she did other big companies coming into China 375 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,680 before. so I think it’s quite interesting. OF: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, 376 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,320 I look forward to meeting Young-Ah. And once again, 377 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,520 thank you, Wendy. WS: Thank you. 378 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,960 [Outro] OF: 379 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,160 I loved that analogy Wendy made between how a shoes fits, and how a foreigner fits 380 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:51,280 in China. To me that just describes the life of privileged immigrants anywhere: we like to fit in, 381 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,760 and we like not fitting in, and somehow both of these states exist at the same time. 382 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,880 Maybe this is the same duality that Wendy was describing with her object: 383 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,400 we’re kings sitting on uncomfortable chairs. 384 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,360 Before I forget, if you’re in Shanghai between now and March 28th, you can visit the AIM 385 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,280 Architecture pop-up exhibition in the space above Marienbad Cafe on the corner of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù] 386 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,120 and 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù]. I went there myself the other day, and I’ve posted a couple 387 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:27,840 of photos online from it, please check Facebook, WeChat or https://mosaicofchina.com to see them. 388 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,040 You can also see a bunch of other photos there too, there’s Wendy’s object, 389 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,920 her favourite WeChat sticker, lots of architectural projects, and plenty more 390 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,920 besides… Including a map that shows the 17 lines (and counting) of the Shanghai Metro. 391 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,880 And finally, please subscribe to the PREMIUM version of the podcast 392 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:55,440 on https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina for an average of 10-15 minutes extra per episode. 393 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,360 Here are some clips from today’s show… 394 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,520 [Clip 1] WS: Pretty is also a little bit boring. 395 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,880 [Clip 2] WS: 396 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,680 I convinced Vincent to take the train to China. OF: Oh, all the way from Europe? 397 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,560 WS: Yes. OF: He actually works with you now? 398 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:07,253 WS: Yes. [Clip 3] 399 00:33:07,253 --> 00:33:10,160 WS: When we called, they said “Come back in March.” And we were like “What?” 400 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,920 [Clip 4] WS: You know, 401 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,120 you demolish something and there's a pipe there. Nobody told you, or nobody knew that it was there. 402 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,400 [Clip 5] OF: You’ve seen it. 403 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,960 WS: You’ve seen this. [End of Audio Clips] 404 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,560 And that’s all for this week. Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, 405 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:37,840 with artwork by Denny Newell. And we’ll be back next week.