1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:03,840 [Trailer] OF: You're supposed to be a gentleman. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,240 MK: I apologise. OF: We’re representing the Brits here. 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,400 [Intro] OF: 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,520 Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:16,960 I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs. 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,360 You know, there are some episodes in this podcast series where you 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:26,240 really want the guest to talk expansively about their lives and their experiences, 8 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:32,080 and maybe the last couple of episodes with Salome CHEN and DJ BO have been a bit like that. 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,160 And then there are people like today's guest Dr. Michael Kinsey, where they do something 10 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:43,680 so specific, requiring such a specialist toolbox of skills, that the fascination 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:49,440 comes from focusing in and discovering all the secret panels and compartments of that toolbox. 12 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:55,760 But if all this talk about specialist toolboxes is already making you roll your eyes, 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:01,280 then I'm actually doing Michael a disservice, because his area of expertise has as much to 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,400 do with human behaviour as it does, to use the scientific term, geeky stuff. 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,680 [Part 1] OF: 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:16,400 Hello Michael, what is your title? MK: So my job is as a fire engineer, 17 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:22,080 to help design safer buildings during fires. OF: Well, I want to know more about it. And before 18 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,440 we do go into that, the first question I have to ask you is, what object did you bring that in some 19 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,400 way defines your life here in China? MK: So the object I've brought in 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,720 is something called a smoke mask. OF: Oh, let's have a look. Right. 21 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,600 MK: It's in this plastic box. And I can open it. OF: I've seen the box in hotels. 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,680 MK: Exactly. So basically, you find these commonly in hotels in China, 23 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:47,813 typically they’re in the wardrobe. OF: Yes. 24 00:01:47,813 --> 00:01:53,520 MK: On the top shelf, near the extra duvets and covers. And the purpose is that if there's a fire, 25 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,640 and smoke starts billowing through the corridors, then this might be useful. Because you can put it 26 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,640 on, and it will help you survive a bit longer. OF: Wow. And tell me what is it that 27 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:08,080 you do then, being a fire engineer? MK: So I work for a company called Arup. 28 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,480 Most people haven't necessarily heard of it, but they've probably heard of some of the buildings 29 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,040 we've helped design, like the Bird's Nest, Shanghai World Financial Center, the Sydney 30 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Opera House. My job is to go around helping all the other engineers help design their part of 31 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:28,400 the building, so that we can make it safe during a fire. So if I'm talking to architects, often that 32 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,920 relates to how many exits; where the stairs are; the layouts; if the travel distances are too long. 33 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,320 If I'm talking to, say, a structural engineer, it's how high is the building; do I need to 34 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,240 protect the structure so that if there's a fire, the building's not going to collapse? 35 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:50,400 If I'm talking to a mechanical engineer, I'll be talking to them about the smoke control system, 36 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,160 to see if it's big enough to accommodate the expected fire size that we might have. 37 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,640 So one of the things I love about my job is I get to learn a little bit about all these 38 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,840 different aspects of building design. OF: And so at what point in the 39 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,320 process are you brought into it? MK: Commonly, very early on. When you're 40 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,560 designing a building, you try and design the big stuff first. So obviously, that's the shape of the 41 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:16,560 building, the form. Then you have the structure. But also for fire, we need escape stairs, and they 42 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,480 can take up a lot of space. So we have to make sure we get enough of those designed in at the 43 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,560 very beginning, so that they can start designing around those things. So often, quite early on. 44 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,760 OF: And I'm guessing that means that your input can have a big effect on 45 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,880 actually how the building ends up looking. MK: Yeah, a lot of my job is telling people 46 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:39,360 what they can't do. It's very similar to a parent actually, because it's unsafe. So a key 47 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,880 part of what we do is about how we communicate this information, to come up with solutions 48 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,920 of how you can do it. I mean, I've been a fire engineer for coming up to about eight years now. 49 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:55,440 And every project is different. And I constantly have to learn more. And I think it suits my 50 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,720 personality. I have a degree in computing, and I have a PhD also in computing and mathematical 51 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:06,560 sciences as well. I’m naturally curious. OF: OK. So then where is the overlap between 52 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,280 somebody with a computer science background, 53 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,560 and a fire engineering job? MK: So my PhD was involved in 54 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,400 developing computer models to simulate people evacuating high-rise buildings using lifts, 55 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,360 and also Underground stations using escalators. OF: Right. 56 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,160 MK: Trying to understand how people behave in high-rise building evacuations, and on 57 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,440 escalators. And then I went and said “Well, how can I develop computer models to represent this?” 58 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:40,480 I actually shared my office with two psychologists who were involved in interviewing survivors of the 59 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:48,320 World Trade Center 911 attacks. And I've had many discussions about how people behave. Then had to 60 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,800 think about how can I programme this, the logic. OF: Oh I see. So you're converting 61 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:58,560 behaviours into a computer algorithm. MK: Yeah, I would look at it more as, what are 62 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,160 some of the patterns in behaviour? And how can we develop a model? So what percentage of people do 63 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:10,080 X behaviour? What percentage do Y behaviour? And then we can develop that into a simplified version 64 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:15,920 of reality, which is our model. So for a lot of my PhD, I would either count people doing things, 65 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:22,000 or I conducted a survey asking people what they would do. And there's huge limitations with this. 66 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,440 OF: Right. MK: Absolutely. 67 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,200 OF: Because what I say I would do in the cold light of day, is probably not what I would do 68 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,600 when I'm panicking with my pants on fire. MK: Exactly, exactly. Well, actually it's 69 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 interesting, most fires - when there is a fire, say, in a massive building - the fire won't be 70 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,920 anywhere near you, but you're still required to evacuate. So a lot of the time people won't be 71 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,280 even aware that it's a real fire. OF: Yes, I totally understand that. 72 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:50,000 Because you hear a fire alarm even, and your first instinct is to think it's a false alarm. 73 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,600 MK: Exactly. So this comes back to a common bias. And I've done research looking at human behaviour. 74 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,080 One of the things we look at is biases. And ‘Normalcy Bias’ is a common one, where 75 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,560 people think that there's nothing wrong. Because statistically, it's likely there is nothing wrong. 76 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,440 The chances of you being involved in an actual fire are very small. So whilst it is a bias, 77 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,560 it's actually totally valid to think that. OF: Right, and what other biases did you find? 78 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:20,080 MK: A lot. ‘Authority Bias’, so if your boss tells you to do something, 79 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,320 you're less likely to question him, because he's your boss in a position of authority. 80 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,160 The same is true if you’re, say, in a museum, and a member of staff asks you to do something, 81 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,640 you're likely to follow what they do, because they're in a position of authority. So there's a 82 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:39,440 myriad of biases we've identified, and use that to try and frame how we think about how people 83 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:46,000 might make mistakes during a fire evacuation. OF: I see. So you might model the behaviour of 84 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,640 what that guard in the museum would do. And then subsequently model what people around 85 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,280 that guard would do. And then so on and so forth. MK: Exactly. And then we try and associate some 86 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,851 kind of probability of doing certain things. OF: Right. 87 00:06:57,851 --> 00:07:02,480 MK: And then we'd run the simulation multiple times. And sometimes the guard might do one thing, 88 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,000 sometimes he might do another. OF: And then work out, 89 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,000 do you have the right safety precautions, no matter what that guard did, basically. 90 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,720 MK: Exactly. We're not trying to design for one event, one fire. We’re trying to design 91 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:20,160 for a range of events, to make it a resilient design. So we run a series of different scenarios, 92 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,960 maybe fires happening in different places, maybe people behaving in different ways. And then we 93 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:30,400 try and say "OK, now we know this, where are high levels of congestion? Why aren't people using this 94 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,680 exit? How can we get them to use this exit?” And then we might be able to either change the design 95 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,480 of the actual building itself, or we might change the management procedures to try and get 96 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,360 more people to do a certain type of behaviour. OF: The more you talk about it, the more 97 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,240 you think “Well of course this has to do with computer science. Like, how did fire 98 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,080 engineers do it beforehand? Because you can't simulate fires without this kind of modelling. 99 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,480 MK: Absolutely. I mean, traditionally before computer models, people just followed 100 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,960 building fire codes. These are general rules - almost like heuristics - that you build your 101 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,480 building according to. Like, you need this many exits if you have this many people. 102 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,440 That's still primarily the way you design buildings at the moment. The problem is that 103 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,080 these building codes are not very flexible. When you want to build very different designs, and you 104 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,040 can't follow the code, how do you demonstrate it's OK? Say, for example, I'm building an airport. And 105 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,280 my travel distance is longer than what it says in the code. What I can do is I can run something 106 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,240 called an evacuation model, where I simulate people in the building evacuating, and then I 107 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:34,080 also simulate the fire. And that simulates the smoke spread, and smoke falling down. 108 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,240 And then I can say “Look, everyone can evacuate in all these different fire scenarios.” So looking 109 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,800 at fires in different areas, different sizes. And then I can say “Look, in all these possible 110 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,680 fire scenarios - or probable fire scenarios - people can still get out. So we think it's safe”. 111 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:55,440 OF: Thinking about that example you said about the ‘Authority Bias’, that makes me think about the 112 00:08:55,440 --> 00:09:00,960 cultural differences between how people behave. Because you would imagine that in a country where 113 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,920 societally you are more inclined to follow authority, you'd have a different outcome to a 114 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:12,240 more sort of liberal and devil-may-care society. MK: Absolutely. And I think in the World Trade 115 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,520 Center 911 attacks, where you had companies coming from different cultural backgrounds, 116 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,800 they observed some of the cultural differences. OF: Oh really. 117 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,240 MK: So I think anecdotally there were some companies that were predominately American. And 118 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,800 before the alarm even went off, a number of people said “I'm getting out of here, 119 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,600 I'm not waiting to be told what to do.” A more individualistic way of thinking. And conversely, 120 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,960 there were Japanese companies, and they all waited until their boss told them 121 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:44,080 that they should evacuate. So culture, by all means, definitely plays a part in how 122 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,040 people behave during an evacuation. It's a hard one to nail down, “What is culture?” 123 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,560 Because it's such a myriad of things, and even within a country, 124 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:59,920 there can be different sub-cultures as well. OF: Then when you're plugging this into 125 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:02,960 your programme, you do take into account the differences? Or does 126 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,520 it all kind of wash out in the end? MK: Generally, we would create a more 127 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,600 simplified version. So the key thing is getting the right numbers of people in. Typically, 128 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,280 in the model, we’ll be conservative. So we'll totally max out the population. 129 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,120 And then how we’d accommodate different demographic groups are 130 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,400 things like changing speeds and things. OF: Well, you mentioned the example of 131 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,560 the individualist society, let's say like an American. And then the more 132 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:33,040 follow-the-authority society like Japanese. Where in that spectrum does China lie? 133 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,880 MK: I'm not familiar with the latest literature in China. I have read the cultural map, though. 134 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,040 And I think China seems to be a bit higher, closer to Japan, whereby people are more likely to follow 135 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,640 authority. Compared to, say, the UK or the US. OF: Well, you are an expert, then, in the 136 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,200 behaviour of people in fires, especially when it comes to lifts and escalators. Is that the way 137 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,560 that I would sum up your specialisation? MK: Yes, that's true. 138 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:03,920 OF: Which to me, seems like a puzzler. Because the one thing that I kinda thought I knew was that, 139 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,320 in a fire don't use the lift, right? MK: Absolutely. I mean, one of the 140 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:13,680 reasons there was an interest in my research was because we're building ever higher buildings. And 141 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:18,880 asking people to walk down flights of stairs is quite strenuous, certainly as we have an ageing 142 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,280 population and increased numbers of disabled people who can't necessarily very easily use 143 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,840 stairs. And lifts potentially provide a viable means to get a lot of people out. 144 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:33,920 The key findings from the research were that you have to use a combination of lifts and 145 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,800 stairs. You don't just only use lifts. Otherwise, people will be waiting forever to use a lift. 146 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,440 Generally for a very super high-rise building… So, the higher the building, the more benefit it would 147 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:50,880 be to provide lifts. I think, low-rise buildings don't generally benefit for throughput. And the 148 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,600 other finding was that it generally helps to use something called ‘Shuttle Floors’ or ‘Sky 149 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,640 Lobbies’. So you're shuttling your lifts between certain fixed floors. And what that means is, 150 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,560 people will typically walk down the stairs to the next sky lobby, and then they would take the lift. 151 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,440 And what that means is that you get this process happening in parallel, whereby some people are 152 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,440 being evacuated in lifts, and some people are walking down to get the lift. And that staggers 153 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,600 their arrival to the lift lobby, it means you don't have as big crowds in the lobbies. 154 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:24,240 And we could reduce evacuation times by up to 33%. I mean, there's a load of other ones. Occupied 155 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:29,280 time feel shorter than unoccupied time. This is why in lift lobbies, they typically put mirrors, 156 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,440 TV screens, they give you something to do while you're waiting. And then the time feels much 157 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,960 shorter than had you had nothing to do. OF: Fascinating. Which has nothing to 158 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,200 do with fire, right? MK: Exactly. But if we 159 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,360 can make people feel less anxious whilst they're waiting during a fire evacuation, 160 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,880 that can generally help improve things. It also will help improve the likelihood 161 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,520 they'll choose to use a lift if they're prepared to wait longer, 162 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,640 compared to choosing to walk down a stair. OF: Well when it comes, then, to big buildings, 163 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,200 this is very relevant to a city like Shanghai, where we are. Because I'm imagining that your 164 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,760 job is different depending on the location. MK: Yeah, absolutely. And also the people we 165 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,200 deal with when we're designing the buildings is also different. Quite often, cities would 166 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:15,280 have their own fire codes, on top of which to tailor for specific fire challenges. So there 167 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,360 are certain parts of China which are particularly mountainous, so they will try and consider the 168 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,200 mountains within certain fire codes, and may be relax some of the other requirements. Because you 169 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,560 can't necessarily do all the things you'd normally do because you're building your high-rise building 170 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,560 on the side of a mountain or something. OF: Can you think of some examples of 171 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:36,560 some of the buildings that you have helped with their fire engineering here in China, 172 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,120 in the last eight years? MK: Sure, perhaps one of 173 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,760 the most notable ones that I can think of is the Starbuck Shanghai Roastery. 174 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,560 OF: Oh, right. MK: Not far from here. 175 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,160 OF: Yeah. MK: That was one of the first 176 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,040 projects I helped with. At the time, it was the largest Starbucks in the world. A unique challenge 177 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,720 of that is that they have this big processing area for making coffee. That's quite unique. I also 178 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,360 work on helping with train design. OF: Oh right. 179 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,000 MK: Helping the fire engineering design for trains. And we helped some Chinese rolling 180 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,720 stock manufacturers design trains for the U.S. Trains are very different to buildings. 181 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,800 And whilst they are much smaller, they're just as complicated in terms of fire engineering. 182 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,800 OF: Because? MK: Because everything goes 183 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:22,240 down to a very small scale. So everything that can burn on a train has to be tested for flammability, 184 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,720 smoke, toxicity, and heat release rate. OF: Yeah, this is where if I know too much 185 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,880 about fires, I start to get a bit worried. MK: Well actually I'd say, everything is 186 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,240 controlled on a train. From a lot of the materials, everything that can burn. 187 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,360 Whereas in a building, quite often there'll be some level of uncertainty about exactly what 188 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,720 the tenants are going to put in the building. Generally, they have to follow certain fire 189 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,720 code requirements, but that's done later on in the design process. Whereas with trains, 190 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,120 everything's kind of done at the same time. OF: And so when it comes down to what you're 191 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,800 doing here every day in China, what is the ‘day in the life’ in that case? 192 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,800 MK: I get to work on different projects. Sometimes I'll dip into one project… I’m 193 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,520 doing some evacuation modelling for a hotel at the moment. I've just finished one of a 194 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:10,560 shopping mall in 成都 [Chéngdū]. I'm involved in an airport project in Cambodia, and this'll be 195 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,400 looking at not just evacuations, but also material testing requirements; what happens when the client 196 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,280 can't necessarily meet certain fire codes; do we think it's OK; how can we show it's OK? 197 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,160 So a whole range of things. OF: And in terms of the codes, 198 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,040 would you say that the codes here are as strict as you'd find elsewhere? 199 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,680 MK: Well, a lot of other countries have been looking at fire engineering for 50-100 years. 200 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,800 And you think, you know, what was happening in China 100 years ago, they're in a different place. 201 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,320 This said, a lot of the latest research is coming out of China. A lot of Chinese universities are 202 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,160 contributing to the latest developments within fire engineering. And the codes are developing. 203 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,560 And also, they'll develop in different ways because they're presented with new challenges in 204 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,280 China that perhaps you get less of in other parts of the world. You get super high-rise buildings, 205 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,440 600 metre buildings. You're getting airports being built, a lot, 206 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,520 at the moment. And there are just fewer airports being built in other parts of the world. 207 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:16,320 OF: I can see why you are still passionate about it. It seems to involve so many different things 208 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,240 like the engineering side; the computer modelling side; the behaviour analysis side; 209 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,520 the customer relations management side. Maybe I'm in the wrong job. 210 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,480 And I'm looking at your object. You know, when was the last time that you yourself have 211 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,320 worn something like this? Have you been involved in anything like real-life modelling like that? Or 212 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,040 is that not really relevant to your world? MK: I haven't been involved in an actual 213 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:45,440 fire. I was involved in an evacuation of my apartment block. And I live on the 20th floor, 214 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,680 so I had to evacuate down the stairs. I was the first one out, thank god. I would die 215 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,480 of embarrassment if I wasn’t. OF: Die of something, yeah. 216 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,600 MK: Yeah. But thankfully, I mainly look at other people involved in evacuations, 217 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,840 and try and understand what's going on. OF: Good. Thank you, Michael. 218 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,512 MK: Thank you. OF: On to Part 2. 219 00:17:03,512 --> 00:17:07,600 [Part 2] OF: Do you know what, 220 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,000 I haven't had enough fire puns. I have to think 221 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,560 about more fire puns as we go on. MK: There’s the classic one of 222 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:18,640 ‘Burning questions, model answers’. OF: OK, we're on to Part 2, Michael. 223 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,600 MK: I’m ready. OF: OK. Question 1, 224 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,520 what is your favourite China-related fact? MK: So my favourite China-related fact is to 225 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,280 do with the Three Gorges Dam. OF: Oh, yeah. 226 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,360 MK: In 湖北 [Húběi] Province. It's a massive hydroelectric dam. It's the biggest in the world. 227 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:40,880 And it displaces large amounts of water. And NASA have done a study and demonstrated it displaces so 228 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,760 much water that it actually slows the rotation of the Earth by a few decimals of a microsecond. So 229 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,400 it actually slows down time. OF: What? 230 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,160 MK: I didn't believe this, I had to go and look it up on the NASA website. It's true. 231 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,480 It's amazing. OF: Gosh, OK. 232 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,480 Do you remember that Superman movie where he… MK: …Goes around so fast. Yeah, yeah, 233 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,040 he goes around so fast, yeah. OF: And then he reverses time. 234 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,840 I think it must be to do with that. MK: He should have gone to 湖北 [Húběi], 235 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,040 you know. OF: Do you 236 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:16,560 have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese? MK: Yes. I actually love learning Chinese, 237 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,920 and part of it is learning Chinese sayings. And I think one of my favourite sayings is 精诚所至，金石为开 238 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,920 [jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi]. OF: Wait a minute, wait a minute. 239 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:31,227 I don't know that one, say it again slowly? MK: 精诚所至，金石为开 [Jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi]. 240 00:18:31,227 --> 00:18:34,160 OF: Naah, I don't know it. MK: I think my pronunciation is not amazing. 241 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,680 OF: No, it sounds good to me. MK: The literal translation is 242 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,960 ‘With complete sincerity, you can open metal or stone’. You can overcome any challenge. 243 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,920 And the reason I like it is, it's quite inspiring, which I think is quite useful when you're learning 244 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,400 Chinese, you need that inspiration. And also it's a derivation of my Chinese name, 245 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,880 which is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng]. OF: Oh nice. 246 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,747 MK: 金 [Jīn] sounds similar, phonetically, to my actual English name, Kinsey. Yeah. 247 00:18:58,747 --> 00:19:00,960 OF: And it’s ‘gold’, right? MK: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 248 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,480 And ‘golden honesty is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng]. OF: Oh and that's your… Oh, that is beautiful. 249 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,160 Because you are quite sincere as a person. I'm feeling that, you know, you're the kind of person 250 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,720 who says what he means and means what he says. MK: I do. I try to. And sometimes it works. And 251 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,720 sometimes - certainly in Chinese culture, with the 252 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,520 concept of saving face - it doesn't always go down well. 253 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,000 OF: Alright, I'm going to try and learn that one. Although the ones 254 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,760 that are eight characters, I always find those much harder. I prefer the four ones. 255 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,600 MK: Absolutely. I mean, another one I quite like is 拍马屁 [pāimǎpì]. 256 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,760 OF: Wait a minute, wait a minute. 拍 [[Pāi], OK, 马 [mǎ], OK. Is that to do with a horse’s fart? 257 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,840 MK: 拍马屁 [Pāimǎpì] is ‘stroke the horse’s arse’ or ‘pat the horse’s arse’. 258 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,320 OF: OK. MK: So it literally means sucking up. 259 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,640 OF: Oh. MK: So quite often, when I meet people 260 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,200 and you use just a few words of Chinese, they go “Woah, 哇塞 [wasāi], your Chinese is amazing”. 261 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,280 And so “No, 不用拍我马屁 [bùyòng pāi wǒ mǎ pì].” OF: Oh wow. 262 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,840 MK: You don't need to stroke my horse’s arse, you don’t need to suck up. 263 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,080 OF: Which is again in idiomatic Chinese. So in a way, you're also 264 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,600 saying again how good your Chinese is. MK: Yeah, it doesn't manage expectations 265 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,200 very well. It can get a bit hairy sometimes. OF: Right. OK. I think I have to have a 266 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,200 warning now on this episode. I can't believe you've talked about horses’ arses, Michael. 267 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,529 You're supposed to be a gentleman. MK: I apologise. 268 00:20:14,529 --> 00:20:16,720 OF: We are representing the Brits here. 269 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:24,080 What is your favourite destination within China? MK: I think one of my favourite places 270 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,600 is 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], as a province. Lots of places of natural beauty. It's so close to Shanghai as 271 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,200 well. I've been whitewater rafting there, I've been hiking there, you can go to 杭州 [Hángzhōu], 272 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:40,720 I've been to different islands just off the coast of 浙江 [Zhèjiāng]. It's absolutely beautiful. And 273 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,720 you can do it all within a weekend, if you live in Shanghai. I think it's an amazing place. 274 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,880 OF: If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least? 275 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:55,760 MK: I think I would miss the convenience of living here. You can find almost anyone to do anything. 276 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,680 Like fix things almost at any time of the day, or any day of the week. Actually, last night, 277 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:07,360 I forgot my keys. And I know a guy who will come at any time. And it was slightly late at night, 278 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,560 and he would just get up, come, and then he would come and open the door, and that was it. 279 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,080 OF: Wow. MK: I think one 280 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,400 of the things I would miss the least is the language barrier, and certainly being able 281 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,120 to connect with certain people on certain levels. Conversely, it motivates me to want to learn more. 282 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:25,280 OF: Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China? 283 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:31,680 MK: I think one of the things which surprises me still is how kind and welcoming people are, 284 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,680 especially to foreigners. You know, from when I have problems working out an app on 285 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,920 my phone, or I'm trying to pay for a bus ride, someone will come and help me. And I haven't 286 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,720 even asked for it. It still amazes me. OF: I think this could also be a function 287 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,960 of your exuding sincerity, Michael. MK: Well, I try and… Whatever I do, 288 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,120 I try and do it with a smile. And, you know, and just look clueless. I've hammered 289 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:57,360 down the clueless look quite well now, so… OF: No but I mean, absolutely you're right. If 290 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:02,720 you do approach it with that attitude - and you're smiling, you’re not getting frustrated - I think 291 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,520 China is a place that will repay that. MK: Absolutely. 292 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,360 OF: What is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out? 293 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:14,400 MK: One of the places - and I don't know if this is a bit of a cop-out - but it's Pie Society. 294 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,360 OF: Oh, yes I know it. MK: On 陕西 [Shǎnxī] North Road. 295 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,960 OF: There’s a couple, I think. MK: Yeah, there is, there are two. And I actually 296 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:29,280 live not far from there. And they do loads of pies, Sunday roast, and a lot of ‘pub grub’ food. 297 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,400 OF: Yes. When I first found it out, I was like “What’s this place?” And I walked in 298 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,680 and got a steak and kidney pie with baked beans on the side. I was just 299 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,320 like “This is the happiest day of my life.” MK: It's always interesting when I invite 300 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,960 some of my Chinese friends, perhaps, to go and try it as well, because I’m like “Look, 301 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,960 you can try British food”. OF: Although we're 302 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,120 not world famous for our cuisine. MK: No. No, normally it's fish and chips. 303 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:54,480 OF: Oh god. The next question, it’s a big one. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? 304 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,440 MK: OK, so this… OF: Send it to me now. 305 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:02,320 MK: There you go. OF: OK. What am I looking at? Explain that. 306 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,960 MK: So this sticker is actually formed of three parts - three stickers - that you have to sort of 307 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,880 put together in the right order. And it's of this small, fat, Chinese child belly dancing, almost. 308 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,120 So I love this because it's quite happy. It was one of the first ones I've 309 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,280 seen which are multi-component stickers. OF: Yes. 310 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,440 MK: And I use it, I guess, when I want to say that I'm happy, 311 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:29,280 or to perhaps exemplify my dancing style. OF: Well, I would like to see you dance like this. 312 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,880 Very good. And it's cheating as well, because it's three, not one. 313 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:35,680 MK: True. OF: Can you actually 314 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,040 send one of them? It must be a bit weird. MK: I’ve sent them in the wrong order once, 315 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,560 and it was like “Oh, recall, recall,” you know? OF: Nice. 316 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:50,000 What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? MK: So I know one Chinese song. It's called ‘爱我别走 317 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,441 [Àiwǒ biézǒu].’ It's a love song. OF: As in ‘Love me don’t go’? 318 00:23:53,441 --> 00:23:54,560 MK: ‘Love me don't go’. OF: Right. 319 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,040 MK: Exactly. It's a ballad, fairly simple. OF: OK. So ballad means it's slow so you 320 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,720 can actually read the bloody lyrics. MK: Exactly. And I've memorised the 321 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,160 lyrics as well. I can just about read them now. There's no rapping, which is good for 322 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,440 me for my background growing up in the mean streets of Surrey. Yeah, it's just about 323 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,480 manageable. You know, I can almost sound OK. OF: Yes, those are the ones who need to learn. 324 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,000 Because I've been trying to find good songs, but people always like the upbeat ones, 325 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,680 and they’re too fast. MK: True. 326 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,640 OF: And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you rely on? 327 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:35,040 MK: Generally, I don't read the news as much since being here. I've just noticed it takes 328 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,720 up a lot of time developing opinions about things I don't necessarily need to have. 329 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,080 OF: Yes. MK: So I try to find a variety of sources. 330 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,920 So the South China Morning Post, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, things like that. 331 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,560 OF: And in terms of your professional life, are there industry websites or 332 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,760 other things that you would have a look at? MK: Yeah, there are scientific journals. There's 333 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,893 Fire Technology. OF: Ooh. 334 00:24:59,893 --> 00:25:04,720 MK: Yeah, I'm also a reviewer for some of these journals as well. So naturally I get given papers 335 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,800 to review, often ones from authors in China. People doing research in tiny parts of fire 336 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,120 engineering - looking at combustion, pyrolysis, smoke dynamics, structural response - whereas I'm 337 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,960 more interested in looking at how people behave. OF: Michael, thank you so much. 338 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:26,240 MK: Thank you. OF: The last thing that I would ask is for you to nominate who you think I should 339 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:32,400 interview in the next season of Mosaic of China. MK: I will nominate Dr. Maya Shinozaki, 340 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,240 who's a colleague and a friend. She solves really complicated engineering problems 341 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,440 using computer modelling as well. I think she'll be really interesting to talk with. 342 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,520 OF: All right. I'm intimidated already, but I look forward to meeting Maya. Thank you 343 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,880 so much, Michael. MK: Thank you. 344 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,080 [Outro] OF: 345 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:54,240 Well it's taken us until Episode 25 of Season 02 in this series, but I think we've just finally 346 00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,240 managed to reach peak diversity: two geeky middle-aged English home counties white dudes. 347 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,120 At least Michael has a PhD and a corporate career to his credit, 348 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,720 all I've got is this podcast and an intermediate swimming certificate. 349 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,640 Maybe what's really going on is that I need to admit that talking about steak and kidney pie with 350 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:21,200 someone from Surrey is making me feel a little bit homesick. It's been 18 months since I last stepped 351 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,480 foot outside of mainland China. And while I know there are people listening who have had a much 352 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,440 harder time than the likes of me over the last year, I feel like I need to at least speak for all 353 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,360 those other people who are in this same situation. Hang on in there everyone. And if you feel like 354 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:42,400 you've been going just that extra notch more crazy over the last few months, you're not alone. 355 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,520 OK, back to today's episode, and you can see the images that go with it on all the usual places: 356 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:55,680 on Instagram, Facebook, WeChat, the website, and Patreon. And speaking of Patreon, there's 357 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:02,560 now another place you can hear the PREMIUM version of the show, and that's on Apple Podcasts. So just 358 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:08,400 type 'Mosaic of China PREMIUM' into your Apple Podcasts app, and you'll now be able to subscribe 359 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,880 straight through there. Here are some clips from today's full-length version of the show... 360 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,240 [Clip 1] MK: What, am I supposed to 361 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,533 drop my life and not come back? [Clip 2] 362 00:27:16,533 --> 00:27:21,120 MK: Known waits feel shorter than unknown waits. So if you tell people 363 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,480 how long they're going to wait, that makes it feel like it's a shorter period of time. 364 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,120 [Clip 3] MK: We're 365 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:29,120 at 70 floors up! Are you gonna choose not to use a lift when we can get out really quick? 366 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,920 [Clip 4] MK: Ships are very different. If there's a fire, 367 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,840 you can't just get off the ship. OF: Right. 368 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,400 [Clip 5] MK: ‘Bandwagon Bias’. You're more likely to 369 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,400 do something if someone else is doing it. [Clip 6] 370 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,040 OF: OK, so there's more to being a fire engineer than just looking at the height of doors. 371 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,640 MK: Absolutely. [End of Audio Clips] 372 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,920 And that's all for today. Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. 373 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:56,720 Coming up is a catch-up from Season 01 with another PhD, it's with Dr. Srinivas Yanamandra 374 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:02,480 from Season 01 Episode 15. If you enjoyed today's chat with Michael and you haven't yet 375 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,200 heard Srini's original episode, you should definitely check it out, not least because 376 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:15,840 there's also a surprising connection to the Three Gorges Dam. And I'll see you back here next week. 377 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:24,880 [Catch-Up Interview] OF: 378 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,160 Srini, it's great to see you again. SY: My pleasure Oscar, thank you so 379 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,600 much. You gave me so much visibility, so I'm always thankful to you. 380 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,320 OF: Oh, not at all, I'm thankful to you. Your episode was one of the ones that people do talk 381 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,440 about still, because it was so unusual. Well, I wanted to check up on you and to ask you 382 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:47,280 what has happened, especially during COVID. SY: During COVID, I have got a little more 383 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,920 depth into epidemics. And I did a couple of sessions on finance technology and epidemics, 384 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,760 how to link between epidemics and a systemic crisis that the banks face. 385 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:02,000 And that has actually led me to finally enrol myself into a Master's in global bioethics. 386 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,360 OF: Wow. SY: So I started doing a bioethics programme since 387 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,280 June 2020, and I'm into… Like, it is a two and a half year programme. I enrolled myself because I'm 388 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,960 so excited to understand how ethical dimensions can come into the biotech space, actually. So… 389 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,320 OF: Amazing. And you're doing that over the internet, I guess. 390 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,080 SY: Indeed, indeed, there is this UNESCO programme, so a United Nations programme, 391 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,760 and they offer it through a University in Mexico, Anáhuac University. And I enrolled, it is an 392 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:35,040 online global bioethics Master's programme. OF: Well, that is a great match for you. 393 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,040 SY: Yeah. OF: Because it mixes ethics, 394 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,840 with computing, with the pandemic. SY: Yes. 395 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,040 OF: And do you already have any early insights? SY: Yeah, indeed, the insights are like pretty 396 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,000 good in terms of what we regularly read in newspapers. Whether you have to impose someone to 397 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,120 wear a mask, or you don't have to impose someone to wear a mask; the kind of ethics in terms of 398 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,600 rationing of the number of beds, for example, for the COVID patients. So there are a lot of ethical 399 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,480 issues that have evolved and we are now grappling with, which maybe we haven't really paid that much 400 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,280 attention to in the pre-COVID era. OF: Yes, that's fascinating. 401 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,120 And then what about with the bank? So of course, your title is that you're the chief 402 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:18,960 of Compliance at the New Development Bank, which is a multilateral bank here in Shanghai. So what 403 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,600 was the situation there during the Coronavirus? SY: Indeed as a bank, I think we have really 404 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,920 geared up ourselves in terms of the task that is at hand. While we have been set 405 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,600 up primarily for our infrastructure and sustainable development projects, 406 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,680 there is an emergency that is required in terms of assisting our member countries 407 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,000 catching up with this fight against the Coronavirus. So the bank did its bit in 408 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,040 terms of granting emergency response loans, a couple of billions of dollars in each country 409 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,640 to fight the pandemic immediately, and also as a kind of emergency economic response. So each 410 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,680 country by country we went through, we understood what kind of programmes the governments are doing, 411 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,760 and whatever little bit that we could do in terms of supporting the country programmes, we were 412 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,320 able to do that. That’s a massive response, which is important considering the stature of 413 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,320 the bank as a development organisation, yeah. OF: And those were loans to other countries, 414 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,914 or to countries within BRICS themselves? SY: Because this bank is set up by the BRICS 415 00:31:11,914 --> 00:31:15,840 - and our member countries are BRICS countries as of now - so the loans have gone to them. 416 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,320 OF: Right, understood. And then what about, then, in the workings of the bank? 417 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,080 Everyone within the bank represents those five different countries - each with their 418 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,280 different status of Coronavirus prevention and cure - how did you manage to work with 419 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,640 your co-workers? Was it just the same as usual? SY: Indeed, we have a brilliant way of, like, 420 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,760 work-from-home arrangements, our cloud systems were perfectly up to the task. So the support 421 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,800 system that we had - in terms of the advisory that we received, and in terms of the families 422 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:51,920 that keep coming from different parts of the world to Shanghai - as a hosting organisation, 423 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,200 and also as a host government - we have been taken very good care of, both by 424 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,960 the bank and by the municipal government here. OF: Right. And then you've talked very much in 425 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,640 the abstract then, what about you in terms of your own learning? Have there been any 426 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,040 ‘aha’ moments that you've had yourself? SY: The best ‘aha’ moment is I was able 427 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,280 to do a TEDx Talk. OF: Oh you did? 428 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,440 SY: Yeah, I did a TEDx talk in October. And that was a real ‘aha’ moment, because 429 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,360 doing a TEDx is like a phenomenally important item in the bucket list. 430 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,800 And the topic was on ‘Swans, Shocks and Serendipity’. So the Black Swan events which 431 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:33,280 have happened in the last two decades - like the 2001 terrorist attack, the 2008 financial crisis, 432 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,960 and the 2019 COVID pandemic - so there are three black swan events in financial history. 433 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,520 So how each of these events have led to a FinTech discovery. So serendipitously, these 434 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,240 crisis events have led to some important FinTech discoveries. That's available on YouTube, and I’m 435 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,240 marketing myself now if anybody's interested in that, they can get onto YouTube and listen to 436 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,960 that. I think it's about a 17 minute talk. OF: Great. And of course there are three 437 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,960 examples because… ‘omne trium perfectum’. You taught me that. 438 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,360 SY: Yes, indeed. OF: Well Srini, it's great to see 439 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:14,480 you. You haven't lost any of your enthusiasm, I was expecting no less from you. And we are 440 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,360 going to be releasing this episode at the same time as a new episode in Season 02. And sadly, 441 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,080 the person who you referred couldn't be in the second season of Mosaic of China. Although it 442 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,880 wasn't really his fault, you have a new leader at the bank, and we just couldn't get our 443 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:34,400 diaries to align. But thank you anyway for the referral. I did manage to find a very nice 444 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,880 replacement, so I hope that you enjoy the episode. SY: Yeah, let me look forward to this. And 445 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,480 thank you so much. In fact, this is a phenomenal podcast. And I'm also very much thrilled to do it. 446 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,200 OF: Well, it's a pleasure to have you in the project and I look forward to continuing our 447 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,760 relationship. Thank you Srini. SY: Thank you.