1 00:00:02,294 --> 00:00:04,160 [Trailer] CM: Why isn't there 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,200 a Gordon Ramsay of China? OF: Oh. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,240 [Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,640 a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs. 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,800 We talked briefly in last week’s episode with the fire engineer Michael Kinsey about the delights 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,520 of British cuisine. But for today’s episode we’re moving on from the likes of steak and 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,960 kidney pie with baked beans on the side, to the equally majestic world of global fine dining. 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,640 Today’s episode is with Crystyl Mo, who is not only an expert in gourmet cuisine, 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:44,400 but is also a coach. And maybe it’s because of this that our conversation today spans not only 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,760 the life of a professional foodie, but also the story that has got Crystyl to where she is today, 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,920 the China Academy Chair at The World's 50 Best Restaurants, 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,920 one of the most highly sought-after positions in the world of food. 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:03,040 As part of this story, we talk a lot about Crystyl’s somewhat unconventional childhood. 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,560 But I think the impression we leave is a little unbalanced, 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,840 so I wanted to add this quick disclaimer right from the start 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,240 that Crystyl did feel incredible love and devotion from her parents as a child. 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,320 There are some other updates about Crystyl that I need to mention, 18 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:22,000 but I’ll save those until the end of the episode. So let’s get on with it. 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,520 [Part 1] OF: So I'm here with 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,680 Crystyl Mo, thank you so much, Crystyl. CM: Thank you, I'm excited to be here. 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,960 OF: Me too. “You are Crystyl Mo, and you are…” How would I complete that sentence? 22 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:42,800 CM: Foremost, right now, I am a life coach and public speaker on issues around self-awareness 23 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:48,480 and mindfulness and meditation, and how that overlaps with my other career, 24 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:54,880 which is in food and fine dining and restaurants. OF: Got it. And it reminded me of Michael Zee, 25 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,680 who was the person who introduced you. CM: Instagram celebrity Michael Zee, 26 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:00,480 love you. OF: Yes. 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,760 [Start of Audio Clip] Michael ZEE: I would like to hear 28 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:09,920 more from my friend Crystyl Mo. She is the chair of Asia's 50 best restaurants. 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:16,080 She's extremely eloquent, and she's just been someone that I've immediately clicked with. 30 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,400 [End of Audio Clip] OF: How did you meet Michael? 31 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,960 CM: We must have crossed paths several times at food events. He's just the ultimate food writer 32 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:31,360 and food celebrity. And beyond that, we have a very similar worldview politically and culturally. 33 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,000 And so we just totally hit it off. I adore him. I don't get to spend enough time with him, 34 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:44,000 certainly not now. He just really knows his stuff. OF: Absolutely. Well, before we get any further, 35 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,600 the first question I would ask you is, what object do you have with you 36 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:54,560 that in some way represents what you do in China? CM: Like I said, I work in food. And I am the 37 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:02,640 Academy Chair for The World’s 50 Best Restaurants, which is a very prestigious role. So in order to 38 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:09,040 evoke that - and my career for 15 years, as a food journalist - I chose for my object a 39 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:18,640 knife, which represents, you know, food and cooking and dining. And also pain and 40 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:26,480 separation, which was a part of being an expat for over 20 years, being cut off. Voluntarily, 41 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:34,240 but also in some way psychologically forced to, because I was escaping from the difficult parts of 42 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,600 my childhood, and my relationship with my parents. So there's a lot going on with this knife. 43 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,840 And this happens to be my mother's knife, which she's had for many many years, 44 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,480 which I wouldn't have had if I was still in China. OF: Wow. 45 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,720 CM: So that's what I've chosen. OF: And so tell us, where are you 46 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,920 right now? Because you have been stranded outside of China, right? 47 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,440 CM: I have been stranded outside of China. I am in my childhood home - in Cambridge, 48 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Massachusetts - and I'm sitting here in my childhood room, actually. This is where I 49 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:12,800 slept from age five to when I went to college, 16, I went to college early. So this is really 50 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,000 interesting. And behind me is one of my mother's paintings, my mother is an artist and a writer. 51 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,400 OF: Right. CM: And my daughter 52 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,253 is sleeping in a loft above my head. [Distant Voice]: I am not sleeping. 53 00:04:23,253 --> 00:04:29,280 CM: Oh, she's not sleeping. OF: Great. With that knife in mind, you mentioned 54 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:34,000 that you were part of the ‘Top 50 Restaurants,’ so could you explain what that situation is? 55 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:41,040 CM: So The World's 50 Best Restaurants is an organisation that started I think about 56 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:47,040 18 years ago in London. It was started on a lark by two young guys who wanted to create 57 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:52,480 an award list for restaurants that wasn't so stuffy and traditional like Michelin, 58 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,480 but represented the kind of restaurants and food that young people wanted to eat, 59 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:02,640 but was still an incredible experience. So they were seeking a new Academy Chair for China, and 60 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:09,360 I had been a food journalist in China for about 15 years, and my name was suggested to them, 61 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,640 they contacted me. I hadn't really known very much about The World's 50 Best Restaurants when 62 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,640 they wrote me their first email. I didn't really know what it was, I was very very 63 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,560 busy. I think I was still the food editor for Time Out Shanghai, producing a 16-page section 64 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,760 every month and just flat out. And I was like “I really don't need another volunteer position”. 65 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,920 So I never replied to them. And then they wrote me three more times. And then finally the woman 66 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,840 who had recommended me called me and was like “Crystyl, can you please just return their email?” 67 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,200 I was just like "Fine, I'll reply”. And then we had a call. Anyways, it was a funny story because 68 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:49,280 I was quite clueless about the opportunity that was presented to me. And eventually I learned 69 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:54,240 that it was, you know, one of the most highly sought-after positions you could possibly have in 70 00:05:54,240 --> 00:06:01,200 the world of food. And you are suddenly invited to restaurants and events all over the world. 71 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,320 OF: Right. CM: With the most genius 72 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:10,320 chefs. I mean, it's been an astonishing ride. OF: Well, you know, you played hard-to-get 73 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,040 Crystyl, it's a lesson that we can all learn. CM: Yes. They actually loved it. They were 74 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,480 definitely far more interested, because they 75 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:22,400 were like “Wait, you don't want to do this?” OF: Maybe it's similar to how I got you onto 76 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:27,040 Mosaic of China, but that’s probably elevating my status a little bit too high, I think. 77 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,800 Wonderful, so what does that role entail for you on a practical level? 78 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:39,600 CM: OK, well, right now, because of COVID, we are not doing our regular events. But during 79 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:46,800 the three years when we were, I would probably once or twice a month travel to visit incredible 80 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,280 chefs and restaurants around the world. OF: I'm assuming that you also visit 81 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:57,600 chefs and restaurants within China too, right? CM: Yes, absolutely. Previous to being the Academy 82 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,760 Chair, I focused almost exclusively on domestic chefs and restaurants. In fact, when I discover a 83 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,560 great chef in China, I would say it is the most thrilling, because there are not enough chefs 84 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:16,240 at that level in China. So if I discover one in China, it's mind-blowing. Why isn't there a 85 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:22,000 Gordon Ramsay of China? Why isn't there a Massimo Bottura? Why isn't there a Rene Redzepi? 86 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,600 With a country of over a billion people, and 5,000 years of history, and the most celebrated cuisines 87 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:35,280 in the world - recognised by chefs - where are our leaders? And the thing is, we don't have a 88 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:42,960 single mainland Chinese chef who's known globally. Why is that? And there are many reasons, but one 89 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:50,960 crucial one is that we had a civil war, and we had the Cultural Revolution. And so people did not 90 00:07:50,960 --> 00:08:00,640 continue this legacy of fine dining or exquisite cuisine during that time. And people still do not 91 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:08,240 think of being a chef as a respected career. So if you are a brilliant person who gets into a 92 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:14,080 top university, you will definitely not become a chef. And the type of people who become chefs 93 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,720 are - like my husband - people who were failing out of school. So basically, when he was little he 94 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:27,520 was a very poor student, because he had a horrible abusive teacher. And so his choices were basically 95 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:33,520 some kind of vocational school or the army. And he chose to go to a culinary school, not because 96 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:40,960 he had any interest in food or cooking, it was basically just a way to make a living. And for 97 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:48,560 most chefs of his generation - and also even now - that is their story. They are not passionate 98 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,880 about food. As soon as they get off work, they go home and make, you know, 方便面 [fāngbiànmiàn]. 99 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:58,560 OF: How interesting. Because that explains, I think, the experience that someone like me 100 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:03,360 would have maybe going to a fancy restaurant in China. Where you do get really good food, 101 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,080 but then there's often that disconnect, right? Where you can tell that the waiter there 102 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,440 doesn't really care about what he's serving you. CM: Right, even though the food might taste great, 103 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,320 but they're not creating a fine dining experience. The chef is not obsessed with every ingredient, 104 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:23,920 the chef is not thinking “I can't wait to wow every diner”. There are definitely becoming 105 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,280 more and more. OF: For sure. 106 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:32,240 CM: But the question of why there aren't already hundreds of well-known chefs, is that the social 107 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:39,680 status of chefs is still very low. Therefore, it creates this vacuum of talent in the F&B industry. 108 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:46,800 Thanks to the booming economy in China over the past 20 years, many chefs from all over the world 109 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,320 came to Shanghai - Shanghai definitely is the heart of fine dining in China - to open 110 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,920 their own restaurants. And they trained a lot of local chefs, and they also just brought the idea 111 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,040 that being a chef could be a very prestigious career. You can be considered an artist, you 112 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:09,680 can be considered a thought leader in the greater society, not just in your one restaurant. And so 113 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:14,080 there are starting to be Chinese chefs who were influenced by that, who were inspired by that. 114 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,640 So you have five-star hotels, which were some of the first to open fine dining restaurants. 115 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:28,080 And so this created an F&B scene which I think is extremely sophisticated, and can compare with 116 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,680 many other top-level cities around the world. OF: Right. And what you're describing is not 117 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:38,400 dissimilar to what happened in the UK. You know, you mentioned Gordon Ramsay, it was only him and 118 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,320 his predecessors over the last 20-30 years that did the same thing in the UK. Except in the UK, 119 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,440 you know, we had a cuisine which most people across the world would laugh at. 120 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,000 If we can say that there are the likes of Gordon Ramsay from the UK, 121 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,760 then it's only logical that there should be the same coming up from China, right? 122 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,400 CM: It is inevitable. OF: You know, we're taking for granted that you 123 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,680 are this writer here in China, knowing about the food scene, knowing about restaurants. But how did 124 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:12,160 that come about? Were you always in this world? CM: Not always. I had this romantic idea that 125 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,080 I wanted to be a writer. And it's hard to get paid as a writer. So one shortcut is to 126 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:23,760 become a journalist where - at the time at least - journalists could make a living. Now it's very 127 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:31,040 difficult, but at that time traditional media was still booming. I was graduating from a UC Berkeley 128 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,080 Chinese training programme at 清华 [‘Tsinghua’] in Beijing. And I was in the right place at 129 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,720 the right time, because the sleeping dragon was awakening, and everyone wanted to know 130 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:50,400 what was going on in this mysterious country of China. I got a job as a China correspondent for 131 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,440 one of the major Time Warner magazines in the region, it was called Asiaweek. At that time, 132 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:01,360 it was a very influential publication. And, beginning of 2002, I wanted to go freelance, 133 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,800 so I started pitching stories to travel magazines. And when you write for a travel magazine, you 134 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,320 always end up writing about food, because that's what people do when they travel, they want to know 135 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,760 where to go out to eat. And that was how I started to write about food, serendipitously. I just 136 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,680 started writing a bit about restaurants, and as I started writing about restaurants, I discovered 137 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:25,280 that I knew a lot about food and cooking. And that was from my childhood, growing up with 138 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:32,000 a creative artist chef mother, an organic garden, and making everything from scratch. From grinding 139 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:39,760 our own wheat to make bread, to making tofu, to never having any processed food in the house. 140 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,360 And so the fact that I grew up learning about that way of cooking actually gave me a huge 141 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:50,400 advantage in writing about the trendy ways of cooking now. I'm very grateful to my mother for 142 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,600 being this super far-out home cook. OF: Let's go into that story then, 143 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,200 because obviously you do have some Asian ancestry, I can tell of course. What is your family's story? 144 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:08,080 CM: My mother is originally from Shanghai. She came to the U.S. when she was a teenager. My 145 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,680 father's from New York. And they grew up in these very opposite families, in some ways. 146 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:21,680 My mother was very poor, my father was born into a very wealthy New York family. But both of them 147 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:29,360 had extremely traumatic childhoods, with parents who were either absent or 148 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:37,680 completely absorbed in other parts of their lives. OF: Interesting. And so did that also transfer to 149 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:42,480 your childhood, or was it relatively happy? CM: I would say it was relatively happy. 150 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,720 ‘Relative’ being the key term. They were both carrying the tragedies of their own childhoods. 151 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:56,080 A lot of my parents’ pain was in the atmosphere of the home. And I carried that with me very 152 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,800 much. And I was also treated like an adult from the time I could walk around. In some ways, 153 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:09,280 I loved that, I had total independence. But I also had no guidance. For example, 154 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,240 from the time I was five, I was going on the subway by myself, nobody to make me breakfast, 155 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:21,120 nobody to dress me, I would take myself to school. We had a bare-bones house with no heat 156 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:28,560 in Boston, so I was freezing all winter long, I couldn't sleep. I had no-one to take care of me, 157 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,840 I took care of myself. My mother cooked a lot, we had wonderful food, I certainly wasn't starving. 158 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:40,400 But I had rags for clothes, I never had a decent haircut. I had a lot of crazy people living in 159 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,520 my house, because my father is this incredible Jesus-like figure who wants to save everyone, 160 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,680 from schizophrenic people to alcoholics and drug addicts, to just very emotionally damaged 161 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,720 people who we would have in the home all the time, which drove my mother absolutely crazy. 162 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:05,200 It was a very chaotic childhood. In retrospect, I realise how unsafe I felt, although I did feel 163 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,320 love from my parents, and they were certainly never intentionally abusive. They didn't scream 164 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:16,160 at me, they didn't beat me, they respected me deeply. But they respected me as an adult, 165 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,560 to just get everything done on my own. OF: Gosh. So I'm guessing that with that 166 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:28,880 background, you were destined to be somewhat of a loner. Like, I'm just thinking about how 167 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:35,680 you could possibly fit into a corporation? Do you have a visceral reaction against that 168 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,840 kind of mainstream life? Or actually, do you long for that kind of life? 169 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:47,520 CM: That is a good question. I don't long for that life. I would say I'm pretty anti-establishment 170 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:53,440 and anti-mainstream. The biggest reason though, that I don't fit into corporate life, 171 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,160 is that I am nocturnal. OF: Oh. 172 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,840 CM: And I operate on a nighttime schedule. My whole life I’ve been nocturnal, 173 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,560 my mother's nocturnal, her mother was nocturnal. So it is very hard for me to 174 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,440 wake up and go to an office in the morning. OF: Goodness. I've never heard somebody 175 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,320 give themselves that title. I've heard people who are like “Oh yeah, I tend to 176 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,080 function better in the evenings. I'm a bit of a night owl.” But you are wholeheartedly 177 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:25,760 embracing this as a way of life, are you? CM: I am. And as a coach, one of the things I 178 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:32,400 studied - learning more about bio-individuality - is that we don't need to go by when the sun 179 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,680 comes up and goes down. When you realise what your ideal circadian rhythm is, 180 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:43,440 it gives you a lot more power. For a long time, I was seen as almost shameful to not wake up in 181 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,240 the morning in this society, people would really look down on that. And I'd always try to hide that 182 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,000 fact. So people will be like “Oh, I'll call you tomorrow at nine” and I'd be like “Oh, I'm busy”. 183 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,520 Now I'm like “I will be asleep”. Instead of having some kind of shame around that. I get as much - if 184 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,080 not more - done each day as anyone else. I just do it during different hours of the day. 185 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:09,120 OF: Well, I can definitely see the strands between what you do now and your previous 186 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:16,000 life. And thank you so much for sharing that part of your story. How did, then, you parlay this into 187 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,960 what you're doing now in terms of coaching? Is it because when you deal with people who work 188 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:27,280 in the restaurant industry, the archetype is that there are very highly-strung chefs. They are these 189 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:33,440 angry, abusive, short-tempered, impatient people. Is that just me creating a silly 190 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:40,160 analogy? Or is that where it first came from? CM: It's not, but there is a relationship. Chefs 191 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,320 have definitely lots of psychological issues, they have a lot of relationship issues, they don't see 192 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,720 their family enough. There are so many divorced chefs, or chefs who never see their kids. My 193 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:57,360 epiphany was not sudden, but what I came upon was, I was going to these very very crazy exclusive 194 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:03,040 experiences at restaurants around the world, where literally you will be picked up from the airport 195 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:11,280 in a limo, and then taken somewhere - maybe by helicopter - to this $1,000 meal with caviar and 196 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:19,360 wine pairings, and luxury for the sake of luxury. And that didn't feel like my purpose. And so 197 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:24,480 that's when I started thinking “I don't know if I want to continue doing this. I want something 198 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:30,160 that really resonates with my purpose here, during this short time I have on the planet, which is to 199 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:38,240 help other people heal and to heal myself”. Hurt people hurt people, but healed people heal people. 200 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,400 OF: Nice. CM: I won't ever 201 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:46,320 say that I'm fully healed. But I want to be on that journey. And so some chefs started to ask me 202 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:52,400 to come to their restaurant and give mindfulness workshops. And so I gave a workshop at the number 203 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,480 one restaurant in the world - which is called Mirazur, in southern France - on mindfulness, 204 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,680 and on dealing with issues of childhood trauma, even. Like, really asking some hard questions 205 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,680 in a half-day workshop with their staff. OF: Right. That is a great combination, 206 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,800 the idea of using your knowledge of the restaurant industry to then give them some coaching, 207 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:19,040 which actually can be relevant in that world. That is a great niche to springboard your career into 208 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,440 the next stage. It's nice for you to talk about that, because I think otherwise people would 209 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,800 look at your life - you know, as you said, you're going from helicopter to amazing meal - and it is 210 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,712 good to know that there is something else going on. Thank you so much Crystyl, on to Part 2. 211 00:19:34,712 --> 00:19:38,320 [Part 2] OF: 212 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,600 Good, well, Part 2, it is the same 10 questions that I ask everyone. Are you ready? 213 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,000 CM: I am. OF: OK, let's start. 214 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:52,880 What is your favourite China-related fact? CM: My favourite China-related fact is, 215 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,120 the longer you stay in China, the more you realise 216 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,120 how little you know about China. OF: Because you have been then trying 217 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:04,160 to know how many years? CM: 23 or 24. 218 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,840 OF: Ach, is that all? CM: Yes. 219 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,960 OF: And were you the kind of person who at the beginning were the super expert, 220 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,560 and you thought that you knew everything? Or did you always have that humility from the start? 221 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:19,920 CM: I never thought about how much I know or don't know. But I have definitely met 222 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,960 many people who feel they know a lot. OF: Yeah. Can you remember one particular 223 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,840 ‘aha moment’ where you had this transition from ‘Oh wait, what I thought I knew actually 224 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,680 is 100% the opposite way around’? CM: One interesting thing I learned 225 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:39,200 is that when I first came to China, I thought that the U.S. was perfect. And so coming to 226 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:46,400 China and hearing another perspective on the U.S. - seeing global geopolitics from 227 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:54,560 outside the U.S. - was a very big ‘aha moment’. OF: Yes, this is when American exceptionalism 228 00:20:54,560 --> 00:21:01,840 clashes with China exceptionalism. Question 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese? 229 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,880 CM: A phrase that I love is 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], which is a very polite way of saying “So sorry to 230 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,880 trouble you”. And Americans don't really say this, we wouldn't off the cuff kind of say “Oh, I'm so 231 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,840 sorry to trouble you”. But in Chinese, that's very common. Like when you ask somebody to do a favour, 232 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,000 or when someone just does something nice for you, can say 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], I'm so sorry to trouble 233 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,600 you. And it's just a very kind and generous recognition of someone doing something for you. 234 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,320 OF: Yes. Although I would take exception to say that the Americans are not polite. 235 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,960 I think Americans can be very friendly and polite, of course. 236 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,120 CM: Very friendly. OF: The Brits use their 237 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,880 politeness as a weapon sometimes. CM: I’m allowed to say that, 238 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,440 but I will agree with you. OF: What is your favourite 239 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,880 destination within China? CM: 云南 [Yúnnán], 240 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:54,160 and 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’], where it's the Switzerland of China. Absolutely stunning. 241 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,216 OF: Every other person, when answering that question, says 云南 [Yúnnán]. 242 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:05,600 I think I should call this podcast ‘Mosaic of 云南 [Yúnnán]’. Yeah, it's something else, isn't it? 243 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,200 CM: I would say, if everyone says 云南 [Yúnnán], then that's the right answer. I mean, 云南 [Yúnnán] 244 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,760 is so diverse. I had my honeymoon in 西双版纳 [Xīshuāngbǎnnà], which is basically 245 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,640 subtropical, and we were in the rain forest in an orchid forest. 246 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,600 And then I've also been to the northern parts around 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’] up into the snow-capped 247 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,720 mountains, you know, all in one province. OF: Yes, and everything in between. Great, 248 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:34,720 next question. If you left China - which to you is actually the reality right now, 249 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,880 hopefully temporarily, and not for much longer - what would you miss the most, 250 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,600 and what would you miss the least? So I should reword that to ‘what do you miss the most, 251 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,640 and what do you miss the least?’ CM: The people and the people. 252 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:58,400 So, Chinese are not great as strangers. Americans are very friendly and have a warmth to them, that 253 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:05,440 you can have some kind of friendly interaction with a stranger, which I think makes just walking 254 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:14,080 around the city feel like more of a community. And yet, Chinese - while they can be quite cold 255 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:21,120 and selfish to strangers - they are so warm and generous as soon as you are on any kind of 256 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:26,400 friendly terms with them. You go to their house, and they will cook you a banquet and take care of 257 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:33,760 you. And so that kind of warmth and generosity is something that struck me as a student when I 258 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:40,480 first went to China and lived in Nanjing. And so I would say that I don't miss being a stranger 259 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,480 in China. But I do miss being a friend. OF: Lovely. And there's quite a theme, 260 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,800 isn't there? Because we're talking about this politeness. We're talking about it in the 261 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,160 context of America, UK and China. You could also throw in Japan as well. I think the Japanese and 262 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:02,240 the Brits can be similar with a politeness. But it's still courteous. What they have in China, 263 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,880 it lacks the courtesy. In many ways, it’s more honest. Because, you know, 264 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,800 the Brits don't care about you as a stranger either. But you really feel it here, don't you? 265 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:18,960 CM: I wouldn't say I'd exchange it for British strangers either. They're both somewhat cold. 266 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,520 OF: Yes. CM: Actually, I would prefer the 267 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:28,240 Chinese one, because you know where they stand. OF: Exactly, exactly. On the metro in Shanghai, 268 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:34,240 you are going to be steamrollered by a Chinese stranger. In the metro in London, 269 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,840 you’re not going to have anyone making eye contact with you. It's a very different kind of rudeness. 270 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,720 CM: Right. OF: Is there anything that 271 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,840 still surprises you about life in China? CM: No. It feels like home. 272 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,840 OF: Yeah. I guess the equivalent would be, is there anything that surprises 273 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:55,520 you about life in the U.S. in that case? CM: More so. Because I have literally spent 274 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:01,600 the last half of my life in China. So being here, there are more surprises. 275 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:09,440 I have been the recipient of so much generosity here during COVID, and warmth from strangers 276 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:16,000 who heard my story, and would deliver food and clothing for my daughter, and a bicycle, 277 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,720 and babysitting. I mean, it's been astonishing. OF: And I've noticed as we've been talking that 278 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,720 sometimes you refer to Shanghai as ‘home’ and sometimes you're saying ‘home’ as in 279 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,440 the room you're in now. Do you have this bifurcated ‘home’ existence? Or actually, 280 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,600 it just depends on where you are? CM: I very much feel that both places are 281 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:42,320 home. I don't feel more or less comfortable. OF: Nice. Next one's gonna be a hard one for 282 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,800 you. What is your favourite place to go out, to drink or eat or hang out? 283 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:53,360 CM: I'll just say one place that I love, which was a cocktail bar I used to go to every Friday 284 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:58,480 with my girlfriends for years. And that's Senator Saloon in the French Concession. 285 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,600 OF: Nice. CM: Where they make perfect classic cocktails, 286 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:07,520 including my signature drink, the sidecar. OF: Oh, my one is the basil gimlet there, 287 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,720 they do a great basil gimlet. CM: Oh yes they do. They do. 288 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,600 And it's just consistent every time. I love the bartenders there. I love the guy who founded it, 289 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:22,480 David Schroeder, a brilliant American bartender and specialist. And they also have the most 290 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,680 amazing bar snacks out of any bar. OF: Even the freebie chips they give 291 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,480 you seem to be elevated. CM: Small and perfect. 292 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:37,840 OF: Nice. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? CM: Oh, right. 293 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,920 OF: Oh, I like this. That's very good. CM: Well, this is just a handy sticker. 294 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,840 Because in WeChat groups, 295 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,600 often people will accidentally send something, or say something inappropriate. And you just need to 296 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,280 have a sticker for that occasion. It literally happens every day. So that's just a fun one. 297 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,360 OF: Can you quickly describe it? CM: So this is a sticker that has 298 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:08,400 just a giant button that says ‘unsee’. So this person is just frantically tapping this 299 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,200 button. Unsee unsee unsee unsee. Like, please just take me back to five seconds previous 300 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,800 in time and let me not have seen that thing. OF: I've never seen this used. I love it. 301 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,520 CM: I hope you’ll start using it. OF: Totally, how can I not? Next question, 302 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,400 what is your go-to song to sing at KTV? CM: I would rather stab my eyes 303 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,040 out with forks than go to KTV. OF: You have obviously been, though. 304 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:38,160 You haven't been able to avoid it entirely. CM: I really have only been maybe three times 305 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,720 in my early career in China before I realised that I will never go again. 306 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,840 People who don't get paid to sing, should not sing. 307 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,480 OF: What about in your daily life? Like if you're having a shower, if you're whistling down the 308 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,080 street, do you have a song that you like to sing? CM: Well, I'm thinking of a song that nobody 309 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,280 will know. But it's a song by a wonderful folk singer, which I've been listening to 310 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,040 a bit more recently. Her name is Catie Curtis, and the song is called ‘Magnolia Street’. 311 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,530 OF: OK CM: It’s a beautiful song, she’s an amazing singer 312 00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:17,920 songwriter. I love acoustic guitar folk singing. OF: Yes. And finally, what other China-related 313 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:24,400 media or sources of information do you rely on? CM: Well, I do love the more long-form 314 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:32,000 writing about China in The New Yorker. So I will read their essays, written by some 315 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,520 of the top writers like Peter Hessler. OF: Well, thank you very much, Crystyl. 316 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,680 CM: Thank you, Oscar. It's really been a pleasure. I feel like I 317 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,160 could talk to you for two more hours. OF: Thank you so much. The only question I 318 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:52,080 would have left to ask you is, out of everyone who you know in China, who would you recommend that I 319 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,600 interview for the next season of Mosaic of China? CM: I would really love to recommend my dear 320 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,160 friend Ricky Li, who is a child prodigy businessman, 321 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:09,600 started his first businesses literally as a grade schooler. He's helped to build a natural gas line 322 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:15,760 in Seattle. And he opened up an incredible fine dining restaurant in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn], 323 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:22,960 where he hired a three-star Michelin chef from California to be the head chef, Christopher Kostow 324 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,400 from The Restaurant at Meadowood. He's brilliant, he’s very humble, he’s a visionary, 325 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:34,480 incredible businessman, and also a connoisseur. OF: Wow. Well, I thought that you had a busy 326 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,000 life. It sounds like you've recommended somebody who is going to be equally hard 327 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,480 to pin down. Thank you so much. CM: He does schedule his day 328 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,880 in 15-minute increments. OF: Oh wow. OK, gosh. Well, 329 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,120 thank you so much. He sounds fascinating, I can't wait to meet him. And thank you again, 330 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,880 Crystyl, that was a real pleasure. CM: It's been an incredible honour 331 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,680 to chat with you. 332 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,160 [Outro] OF: At the beginning of today’s 333 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,040 episode I mentioned that there were a few updates to share since the recording of the conversation. 334 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:11,680 Well sadly Crystyl is still stranded in the U.S. because family reunion visas are still not being 335 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,960 issued for China. She has been running groups for people in this same situation on Facebook 336 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,160 and WeChat this whole time, so please reach out to her personally if you’d like to be added. 337 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,080 She would love to connect with you, or indeed with anyone who enjoyed this episode. 338 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,480 And on a slightly happier note, Crystyl’s husband who is Chinese was able to come to the States and 339 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:38,560 return to China with their daughter Phoenix, who is a dual citizen. This has left Crystyl 340 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,120 with all the more time to focus on the biggest project that she has run this year, which has been 341 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:49,600 producing and directing her mother's cooking show, Mother Zen Chef. So if you want to check that out, 342 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,400 head to the transcript for today’s episode at the Mosaic of China website, where you can 343 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,920 scroll to this part of the conversation for the direct links on YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. 344 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaking of Patreon, that’s one of the three ways that you can also check out the PREMIUM 345 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,760 version of the podcast, which includes an extra 10-15 minutes of extra content 346 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,960 every episode. Here are some clips from today’s show. 347 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,120 [Clip 1] CM: Much to their surprise, 348 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,040 almost every chef came, including Ferran Adrià of El Bulli, a God in the culinary world. 349 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800 [Clip 2] CM: Ancient ways of cooking, using pickling 350 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,013 and using the whole animal or the whole vegetable. [Clip 3] 351 00:31:29,013 --> 00:31:36,240 CM: The most stereotypically rude and arrogant and condescending service, I wrote a 352 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,667 scathing review for Time Out. [Clip 4] 353 00:31:38,667 --> 00:31:44,160 CM: I have a superpower, which is that I metabolise alcohol very efficiently. 354 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,600 [Clip 5] CM: It's the 355 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:52,720 ‘Oscars’ of food, to have a spot on that list cements you in the firmament of great chefs. 356 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,560 [Clip 6] CM: He was in the kitchen, 357 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,280 I went in the kitchen, I met him there. Basically love at first sight, and I was like "Wrap him up, 358 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,440 and I'm taking him home”. [End of Audio Clips] 359 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:07,120 And finally, you can see all the images from today’s episode on all the usual places, including 360 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,720 photos from Crystyl’s childhood; some from the first time she stepped foot in China in 1995; 361 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,760 some shots with her husband, mother and daughter; 362 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,600 and of course there are also great photos of Crystyl alongside some of the world's top chefs, 363 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,920 including Dan Barber, Rene Redzepi, The Roca Brothers and Heston Blumenthal. 364 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:34,000 Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. A great accompaniment to today’s 365 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:40,240 show is the interview with the China street food tour guide Jamie Barys from Season 02 Episode 02. 366 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,960 And you heard his voice at the beginning of the show, well you’re about to hear it again, 367 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,920 because coming up is a catch-up recording with the Instagram food writer Michael Zee 368 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,280 from Season 01 Episode 07. So be sure to listen to Michael’s original episode 369 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,120 if you haven’t done so already, and I’ll see you back here again next week, 370 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:09,840 where - who knows - there might also be a connection to food… 371 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,560 [Catch-Up Interview] OF: 372 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,600 Hello, Michael. MZ: Hello. Back again. 373 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,240 OF: Here you are. You're not in the studio, you're at my house this time. For people who didn't 374 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:28,560 necessarily hear our original interview, you are the man behind @symmetrybreakfast, the Instagram 375 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:35,040 account. What was your story during COVID? MZ: I was having a haircut at the beginning of 376 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,360 January 2020. And my barber is from 贵州 [Guìzhōu]. And he was saying “Oh have you heard about this 377 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,000 virus in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]?” I was like “Yeah, I saw it on the news”. "That is something we should keep 378 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,320 an eye on”. But I was about to go on holiday to Australia. And whilst we were in Australia, it all 379 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,400 started of kicking off in China, everything was starting to go into lock-down, until we were 380 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,520 kind of watching it and looking at the news every minute of the day. We got to the end of the two 381 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:06,960 weeks in Australia, and we just made the decision to delay returning. So we went to Indonesia. And 382 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,120 then Mark had to go to Europe for work, so we came to Europe. And seven weeks later, we ended up back 383 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,400 in Shanghai after a lot of our friends said “It's fine. Just come back”. So I actually came back 384 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,040 before they asked me to quarantine. So I came back and I just went home. And it was only a few 385 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:29,040 weeks afterwards that the borders were closed. It's very difficult to be in this position as a 386 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,120 social media ‘share-all' position… OF: That was exactly what 387 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,800 I was going to ask you, yeah. MZ: … When actually my 2020 was pretty good. 388 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,400 OF: Yes. MZ: And so I've been very cautious 389 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,120 not to go overboard with “Oh my life’s totally normal, having a great time”. Because I understand 390 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,080 a lot of people are not in that situation. And I took a step back from social media. I've been 391 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,600 definitely a lot less on Instagram and social media. and just kind of taking it day by day. 392 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,920 Sometimes it's better just to be quiet. OF: Which is interesting, because during 393 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,080 our original conversation, you were saying how there is no job description - you've 394 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,480 made this job yourself - and there's no off-ramp either. You don't know how this is going to end, 395 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,560 you can't pass it off to anyone, you are @symmetrybreakfast. So did this give you a 396 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:20,560 little bit more insight into that end game? MZ: Absolutely. I think I should have this 397 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:27,200 escape route. Because ultimately, people get trapped in social media because it's their income. 398 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:34,880 I came to China four years ago and I remember my agent emailed me a matter of months later saying 399 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:40,080 “Are you ready to write a book about China?” And I was “No, of course I'm not ready”. But then four 400 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,720 years later, “Hmm maybe, yeah.” OF: OK. 401 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,960 MZ: OK, I feel I do have a lot of knowledge. I do have a lot of opinions and perspective. 402 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,880 I think I'm ready to do another project, another book or something that's more than just Instagram 403 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:53,840 and breakfasts. OF: Yes. 404 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,760 MZ: And we're leaving Shanghai. Now going to Italy, it’s “How do I continue that energy?” 405 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,400 And I have to just go for it. OF: Are you going to have to 406 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,160 finish everything while you're in China? MZ: I'm definitely putting projects into place 407 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,320 now, with the hope that I'm going to be able to come back in September/October 408 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:16,080 for research and for planning around those projects. I haven't really seen any significant 409 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,760 research on Anglo-Chinese food. You know, there is just not the same breadth and depth compared 410 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,160 to American-Chinese food. That is something I really want to explore. If I'm going to be back 411 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:31,920 in Europe, and back in the UK, I can use that to interrogate my dad about those sorts of stories. 412 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:38,080 And so I'm excited to see how moving away from China physically can actually bring out certain 413 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,120 projects that will enable me to come back. OF: Yes. And of course, you're going from 414 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,600 a country with a very important food culture to another country with a very important food 415 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,840 culture, right? Do you think that when it comes to Italy, there are going to be some connections 416 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,720 that you haven't thought about? MZ: Oh, at the moment I can 417 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:03,760 only think about the parallels. They're both very hyper-local cuisines, very specific to certain 418 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:11,120 communes or provinces or regions. And they're both very much grounded in a sense of provenance 419 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,560 and seasonality. But what I don't see in Italian culture - that is so prevalent in 420 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:23,760 Chinese food - is this connection to health, and food as medicine. I don't know if actually any 421 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,680 European culture has such a strong connection to health. You know, I'm definitely going to go to 422 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:36,080 Italy and probably still drink a lot of hot water. OF: Yeah, you can't take that out of you now. 423 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,400 MZ: No. OF: 424 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,800 Well, what little tidbits have you learned - I guess this will be my last question for you - in 425 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:49,520 the two years since we last met here on mic? MZ: Oh, I think the biggest thing is that for 426 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:56,800 every stereotype, it's also completely untrue. You know, I've been to places like 成都 [Chéngdū] and 427 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,000 you meet people who hate spicy food. OF: Oh right. 428 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,400 MZ: And I follow other Chinese food writers - and Western food writers who write about 429 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,760 China - and they say things like “Chinese people don't eat salads”. 430 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,880 With every statement about China, the opposite is true also. 431 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,640 OF: Right. MZ: For me, some of the best food in the world 432 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,560 is Chinese and some of the worst food and world is Chinese. And there's no right or wrong here. China 433 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,280 is the most beautiful and the ugliest country. People here are the nicest and the meanest. 434 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,640 And you can't make a generalisation. OF: Well, this is the stage you should be, 435 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,120 having been here for four years and on the way out. You have to be leaving under a cloud of 436 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,360 confusion. Because if you were leaving, like “Oh, I know China” then you're not doing it right, 437 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,040 Michael, right? Why would we even try and encapsulate a country where, 438 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,720 you meet a nice Chinese person, you meet a bad Chinese person, just like you would anywhere else. 439 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,440 MZ: Anywhere else. OF: So on that note, 440 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,880 and we've talked about the other food influencers… One of them of course is the lady who you refer to 441 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,040 me for Season 02, Crystyl Mo. MZ: Oh, yeah. 442 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,160 OF: And it will be alongside Crystyl’s episode that we release this catch-up. 443 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,320 MZ: Oh, amazing. OF: So have you been in touch with Crystyl at all, 444 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,920 since she's been locked out the whole time? MZ: Yeah, I mean, we've only spoken a handful of 445 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:16,400 times. I mean, I feel terrible for her situation. OF: Yes. And she seems to have a very 446 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,640 philosophical idea about how to live life. I mean, 447 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,560 you have to just get on with it. I believe that's what everyone who is in that situation is doing. 448 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,160 MZ: Sure. OF: But thank 449 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,520 you. It has been great to have you as part of this Mosaic. And this is the first catch-up, 450 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,080 I hope there are many more in the future. MZ: Brilliant. Thanks so much for having me.