(00:00:01): The elephant in the parenting room is male laziness and the misogyny that birthed it. (00:00:06): It doesn't matter how many parenting books I read, (00:00:08): how diligently I learned to control my emotions, (00:00:11): how zealously I regulate my nervous system. (00:00:14): It doesn't matter how often I do the right thing if all my husband does is undermine it. (00:00:18): I can patiently wade my way through her tantrums, (00:00:21): but as soon as this man-child arrives on the scene, (00:00:24): he either caves in and gives her what she wants, (00:00:26): or starts screaming, (00:00:27): yelling, (00:00:27): and spanking. (00:00:29): And then, (00:00:29): no matter what he does, (00:00:31): he turns on me next, (00:00:32): yelling at me about what a bad parent I am in front of her. (00:00:36): This is the reality of literally every woman friend I have. (00:00:39): Can we please talk about this reality when we talk about parenting advice? (00:00:44): Hi. (00:00:45): I'm Zonva Lines, (00:00:46): and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast, (00:00:49): and today we are going to be talking about this reality as well as the more mundane (00:00:54): realities of parenting toddlers and preschools who are notoriously difficult, (00:00:59): except that our guest today does not think so. (00:01:03): We're here today with my guest, Devin Koontzman. (00:01:05): Hi, Devin. (00:01:07): Hi. (00:01:07): Thank you so much for having me. (00:01:09): I'm so thrilled to have you here. (00:01:11): I was really excited when you reached out to me. (00:01:13): And the thing that I love about Devin's work is that there are so many people who (00:01:19): claim to be practicing gentle or respectful or authoritative parenting, (00:01:25): except they're not gentle or respectful or authoritative with their audience. (00:01:29): They're condescending, they're shame-based, and they're often incredibly misogynistic. (00:01:35): And I found Devin's work to be a breath of fresh air where that's (00:01:39): really not happening. (00:01:40): So thank you for creating that space, Devin. (00:01:42): Thank you. (00:01:43): Thank you for seeing that in my work. (00:01:46): So before we get started, I'm going to tell everyone a little bit about Devin. (00:01:49): Devin Kunzman, (00:01:50): PCC, (00:01:51): is the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood, (00:01:53): a certified coach, (00:01:54): and a mom to a three-year-old. (00:01:56): She's on a mission to rewrite the narrative on the terrible twos and beyond, (00:02:00): helping parents see toddlerhood as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to build (00:02:04): social, (00:02:05): emotional, (00:02:05): and relationship skills. (00:02:07): As the original toddler parenting coach on Instagram, (00:02:10): with a background in psychology and child development, (00:02:13): Devin has guided tens of thousands of families worldwide to parent with more calm, (00:02:17): confidence, (00:02:17): and joy. (00:02:19): Her new book, (00:02:20): Transforming Toddlerhood, (00:02:21): is designed to support not guilt parents, (00:02:24): offering tools, (00:02:25): encouragement, (00:02:26): and a fresh perspective to turn this challenging season into one of the most (00:02:29): meaningful chapters of the parenting journey. (00:02:31): And her book will be out October 21st. (00:02:34): I will put it in the Liberating Motherhood bookshop, (00:02:37): but it's also available wherever you want to buy a book, (00:02:39): so you should definitely get it. (00:02:40): And Devin, I'm just so grateful that you're here. (00:02:43): Thank you so much for having me. (00:02:44): I'm so excited to talk to you about this topic. (00:02:47): So we're doing something a little bit different for this podcast. (00:02:50): I sometimes do a Q&A, and that's how we're going to do it today. (00:02:53): I asked you all to give me your questions about parenting toddlers and (00:02:57): preschoolers, (00:02:58): and you did not disappoint. (00:03:00): So I'm going to present them to Devin, (00:03:04): not to put her at all on the spot, (00:03:06): and we'll see what she comes up with for your real-world parenting challenges. (00:03:10): And I think she and I will also talk about how there's (00:03:14): always a larger social context for these challenges a little bit. (00:03:18): So before we do get started, (00:03:19): I want to acknowledge a lot of what our opening vignette nodded to, (00:03:24): which is that parenting advice in some ways always involves telling parents, (00:03:28): and let's be honest, (00:03:29): mothers, (00:03:29): that what they're doing is wrong. (00:03:31): That's a message we get constantly in our culture. (00:03:34): We aspire to perfection. (00:03:36): And for many of us, (00:03:38): the men around us think they can just show up and yell or show up and do nothing. (00:03:42): It's maddening. (00:03:43): So if you're in a bad situation with your relationship, (00:03:46): as statistically most women are, (00:03:49): if you're with someone who undermines your parenting, (00:03:51): I want you to know that you are not ruining your children. (00:03:53): And I think that's one of Devin's messages is that you don't have to be perfect. (00:03:57): This is not your fault. (00:03:59): I hope you'll take what is helpful here. (00:04:00): And anything that's not, just discard it. (00:04:03): All we can do is the best we can with the tools we have. (00:04:05): And our goal here today is to offer you a few more tools, (00:04:09): not to make you feel worse or more alone or like you're doing it wrong. (00:04:15): So with that, (00:04:15): Devon, (00:04:16): before we get started with specific questions, (00:04:18): for readers who are not familiar with you, (00:04:21): I wanted to ask you a bit about your general parenting philosophy. (00:04:25): I find that it's really easy for parents, (00:04:27): myself included, (00:04:28): to get caught up in using like a specific script or in parenting in a very (00:04:33): aesthetic way or a very specific style. (00:04:36): But that's not really what good parenting is about. (00:04:38): And we have to be able to be flexible as we learn about our kids' needs. (00:04:41): And I like that you are open to that and talk about that. (00:04:45): So what would you say is your style? (00:04:48): And what would you say are the core principles of good parenting? (00:04:50): Yeah. (00:04:51): Yeah, thank you so much for asking that. (00:04:53): So when it comes to these scripts, (00:04:55): it's a double-edged sword because people want to learn a new way of parenting and a (00:05:01): new way of speaking with their children and scripts are helpful, (00:05:05): but then sometimes we take it too far and feel like it's the only way. (00:05:09): And so I love that you mentioned this flexibility because there's many ways to get (00:05:15): to the same outcome. (00:05:17): And so here at Transforming Toddlerhood, (00:05:19): What I'm really focused on is empowering parents to create confidence in their (00:05:23): parenting skills whilst dispelling the myth that toddlerhood is terrible because (00:05:29): yes, (00:05:29): toddlerhood is a very challenging developmental period. (00:05:33): And there are times where it is just downright grueling and we feel like we just (00:05:38): can't take another day. (00:05:40): And at the same time, (00:05:41): it's a very critical developmental period that supports your child's brain (00:05:46): development and sets the stage and the foundation for the rest of their lives. (00:05:50): So how do we balance knowing how important this developmental period is with how (00:05:55): challenging it is? (00:05:57): So some of our main principles here at Transforming Toddlerhood are that we want to (00:06:02): work with development, (00:06:03): not against it. (00:06:05): So I teach parents how to decode their toddler's behavior and understand what (00:06:09): behavior is communicating. (00:06:11): So then we can work on addressing not the behavior we see on the surface, (00:06:16): but what it actually means or is communicating. (00:06:19): And that's how we create transformation. (00:06:21): Another core tenant is that practice makes progress, not perfection. (00:06:26): It's about the willingness to show up every day and to practice something new, (00:06:31): to fall down sometimes, (00:06:32): to make mistakes and to try again, (00:06:35): knowing that you don't have to be a perfect parent to be a good parent. (00:06:40): And I'd say the last principle and the thing that I really want people to take away (00:06:44): from the book is this idea that we're all human beings. (00:06:47): that you are a human being with feelings, emotions, and needs doing your best every day. (00:06:52): And so is your child. (00:06:54): So those moments where you feel like your child is having bad behavior, (00:06:58): or you feel like that you're failing, (00:07:00): these are just our feelings and feelings are signals. (00:07:04): They let us know what's happening on the inside, but they definitely are not facts. (00:07:08): And so just knowing that you are a human being that's doing their best. (00:07:13): And so is your child can go a long way. (00:07:16): in working together to have things go differently. (00:07:19): I love that. (00:07:21): I think that's lovely advice. (00:07:22): I think one of the principles I learned early in parenting is I had very good parents. (00:07:28): And when I was pregnant, I truly believed that I could be a perfect parent. (00:07:33): I remember telling my husband, (00:07:34): I can get through all 18 years and I will never yell at our kids because (00:07:38): And then, of course, the real children that you have to parent come along. (00:07:42): And it turns out that it's very challenging. (00:07:44): And the thing that I've reminded myself a lot is that it's good for them to see (00:07:48): that I'm human because it shows them how they're affecting other humans. (00:07:52): Right. (00:07:54): Absolutely. (00:07:55): And this is the thing that is really interesting to understand is that parenting is (00:08:00): a relationship. (00:08:01): It's one type of many relationships that we're in, (00:08:04): in our lives and that we definitely impact our children and our children impact us. (00:08:11): And this is why we don't really need to, (00:08:15): or want to be perfect parents because all of the messy moments or challenging (00:08:19): moments that (00:08:20): we might look like as problems that need to be fixed are actually opportunities for (00:08:25): learning and growth. (00:08:26): And in those moments when you're actively working to ground yourself, (00:08:32): when you're feeling like you're getting frustrated or triggered, (00:08:35): or those moments of taking ownership and repairing the relationship after you yell, (00:08:41): those moments of saying out loud what you want to do next time and practicing it, (00:08:46): Those moments that you're teaching your toddler new skills, (00:08:50): all of these things are showing your child that we don't need to be perfect to be (00:08:57): good people. (00:08:58): And it's teaching them the skills that they need to be successful in life, (00:09:01): the emotional skills, (00:09:02): the social skills, (00:09:03): the relationship skills, (00:09:05): all of the skills that they're going to need to have later in life. (00:09:08): And whenever we come at this from a place of perfection, (00:09:12): like just pretend, (00:09:13): what if we were like robots, (00:09:14): right? (00:09:15): and did everything perfectly. (00:09:16): What kind of standard would we be setting for our children? (00:09:19): And how would our children be able to learn all of these skills? (00:09:24): Because modeling is one of the most powerful ways that we can teach. (00:09:28): Yes, absolutely. (00:09:29): All right. (00:09:29): So here is our first question, speaking of perfectionism and dealing with challenging behaviors. (00:09:36): My daughter is two years and four months and (00:09:39): She's borderline autistic, (00:09:40): and then she clarifies that what she means by this is that her testing is (00:09:44): borderline. (00:09:45): Regular parenting advice isn't working to stop her hitting, kicking, and biting. (00:09:50): When she hits, kicks, or bites, it is very much a part of communication. (00:09:53): It happens when she has appropriately asked for something and then been told no. (00:09:58): She might ask a few times in a row before lashing out. (00:10:01): If I will do my best to react calmly with a we don't X, (00:10:04): then put her on the floor away from me or get up. (00:10:06): I've done this so many times, but the behavior continues. (00:10:09): It's predictable, and I'm usually able to dodge the bite. (00:10:13): How do I get her to stop trying to bite me and beating up on me? (00:10:17): I solo parent most of the time with a neglectful, (00:10:20): angry, (00:10:20): loves-weaponized incompetence husband that I am working on leaving. (00:10:24): I wonder if the behavior stems from his lack of consistency with her. (00:10:31): That's such a great question. (00:10:32): And that's such a hard situation to be in when you feel like you're doing all the (00:10:36): things and you've tried all the things and it's just things aren't changing. (00:10:41): So I have a lot of empathy for this mama. (00:10:45): Whenever I think about (00:10:48): discipline and the challenges right because when we it's typical for toddlers to (00:10:53): have all these behaviors right to hit kick bite especially whenever they come up (00:10:57): against the limit because we're when children come up against the limit they have (00:11:01): to work to accept it and they have feelings of disappointment frustration because (00:11:06): in toddlerhood they're trying to become their own person and they have their own (00:11:10): agenda so when we stop them from executing their agenda by telling them no (00:11:14): They get frustrated. (00:11:16): And at this age, (00:11:16): the best way that they can communicate that is physically through their behavior. (00:11:21): And I hear this mama doing so many great things, setting that limit, following through on it. (00:11:27): but the behaviors still keep happening. (00:11:30): One thing that can be supportive here is getting to the full, (00:11:37): what I like to call the full recipe for effective discipline. (00:11:40): So focusing on the communication, the connection aspect. (00:11:45): And focusing on the teaching skills aspect. (00:11:50): So the recipe for healthy, (00:11:53): effective discipline is creating connection, (00:11:55): setting limits and following through and teaching skills. (00:11:58): So one thing that children need a lot of support with, and especially kids who are (00:12:03): are testing borderline with autism and on the spectrum is that need a lot of work (00:12:12): with skills, (00:12:13): sensory regulating skills, (00:12:14): emotional regulation skills. (00:12:17): And these happen in the calm moments. (00:12:19): So reading books about big emotions, practicing different activities that promote (00:12:26): breathing, (00:12:27): like blowing bubbles, (00:12:28): pretending to blow out a candle, (00:12:30): belly breaths, (00:12:31): listening to short meditations together, (00:12:34): starting to introduce these concepts in the calm moments is what's going to help (00:12:38): kids. (00:12:39): Um, (00:12:41): move toward this place of regulation. (00:12:44): And when you have a child who's very, (00:12:46): very physical with biting and kicking, (00:12:49): oftentimes when we want them to jump to just being calm, (00:12:52): it's too big of a leap for them, (00:12:53): especially at this age and especially kids that might have extra needs. (00:12:57): So we, (00:12:58): Helping them go from an inappropriate physical outlet to an appropriate physical (00:13:04): outlet can be a really great first step. (00:13:07): So talking about afterwards, next time you feel this way, what can you do? (00:13:12): I won't let you hit me. (00:13:14): You can't hit mama. (00:13:15): Hitting hurts. (00:13:16): You can hit this pillow. (00:13:18): You can bite this silicone teether. (00:13:22): Giving a (00:13:23): a replacement way that's appropriate to get the physical behavior out is a great (00:13:28): stepping stone to bridge the gap as you teach more of these coping skills and (00:13:33): sometimes getting the support of an occupational therapist that specializes in the (00:13:37): sensory system can be extremely supportive of as well in these situations. (00:13:43): I love this advice. (00:13:44): And I especially love that you mentioned the sensory bit. (00:13:47): Um, (00:13:48): you know, (00:13:48): when I first started learning about sensory needs, (00:13:51): I have to admit that I was like kind of dismissive about it. (00:13:53): I thought, (00:13:54): well, (00:13:54): you know, (00:13:54): there are other things that come before this and, (00:13:56): you know, (00:13:57): it's emotional connection and all of that. (00:13:58): And it really took a long time for me to understand how prominently this sensory (00:14:03): stuff figures, (00:14:05): I think to some extent with all children, (00:14:07): but especially with some neurodivergent kids. (00:14:10): So I love the alternative of giving like a pillow or a sensory chew or something. (00:14:14): And I just want to (00:14:16): add too, and you touched on this a little bit, Devin, this is a really young kid. (00:14:21): This is effectively a baby. (00:14:23): And I think in parenting, (00:14:25): we have so many expectations and so much pressure placed on us that I often wonder (00:14:31): if our problems with our kids are really problems of (00:14:35): External worries. (00:14:37): What's going to happen if she keeps doing this? (00:14:39): What are people going to think of me? (00:14:41): So two years and four months fighting. (00:14:43): This is just like a thing little people do. (00:14:47): Doesn't mean you have to accept it, (00:14:48): but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's anything wrong with her or with you. (00:14:53): Absolutely. (00:14:54): I think that is so beautifully said because we get so wrapped up in the what ifs. (00:14:59): What if this continues? (00:15:01): What if this escalates? (00:15:02): What if this never goes away? (00:15:04): And then it creates this false sense of urgency to, quote unquote, fix a problem. (00:15:10): And that's why... (00:15:11): In my book, Transforming Toddlerhood, I spent a lot of time talking about the sensory system. (00:15:17): I have a whole chapter dedicated to the sensory system and behavior red flags (00:15:21): throughout the book to help parents understand what is typical behavior and what is (00:15:26): behavior that may be outside the typical realm and how to also use sensory (00:15:32): strategies and (00:15:33): in different situations to support a child because a child can be emotionally (00:15:38): overwhelmed and they can also be sensorily overwhelmed. (00:15:41): And toddlers at this age, their sensory system is still developing. (00:15:46): And so there's a lot of things that the sensory system can cause an impact, (00:15:53): even if you do have a neurotypical child. (00:15:56): All right. (00:15:58): Our next one is this. (00:16:01): My four-year-old curls up in a ball and moves away from me when she's upset. (00:16:06): She will shout at me that she doesn't want to hug or for me to say anything or to (00:16:09): touch her or anything. (00:16:11): But of course, I'm also not allowed to leave her. (00:16:14): She says nothing will help her and sobs and sobs. (00:16:17): It makes me sad in the moment that I can't work out how to help her, (00:16:20): but I'm also worried for the future. (00:16:22): How can I help her accept help or love when she's upset or angry at someone? (00:16:27): I don't discount her feelings, (00:16:29): and we can have good conversations about what she was feeling at a later time. (00:16:33): I found the book How to Talk So Kids Will Listen a great start, (00:16:36): and the suggestions have worked really well for my other two kids, (00:16:39): but I haven't been able to work through this particular challenge with this child (00:16:42): yet. (00:16:44): Yeah, this is such a great question. (00:16:47): So a lot of times children between the ages one and four have competing needs. (00:16:53): So they want to be left alone because they're trying to be an independent (00:16:58): individual, (00:16:59): but they also want you nearby. (00:17:01): And these competing needs can be really frustrating and confusing for both kids and (00:17:06): their parents. (00:17:07): And so this is why sometimes you see children pushing us away and (00:17:12): and also wanting us nearby. (00:17:14): At the same time, (00:17:15): when you have a highly sensitive child, (00:17:17): sometimes there can be a lot of shame and embarrassment around big feelings. (00:17:22): There's a lot of self-judgment and things of this nature that tends to happen when (00:17:28): children are more highly sensitive. (00:17:31): And so that could be part of what's happening there as well. (00:17:34): But I think that the most important thing is, is that (00:17:39): Validating your child's feelings and emotions and saying, you feel like nothing will help. (00:17:45): I hear you because sometimes kids just need us to see them and to hear them. (00:17:51): And to let them fully release all of those feelings and emotions, (00:17:55): even though for us, (00:17:57): it can be so hard to hold space for the full spectrum of emotions, (00:18:01): so hard to see our children upset. (00:18:04): And when we give the space for the full emotional release without making it right (00:18:09): or wrong or trying to fix the problem, (00:18:11): I'm using air quotes here, (00:18:13): you know, (00:18:14): fix a problem, (00:18:15): then (00:18:16): something beautiful can really start to happen there. (00:18:19): And absolutely, this mama is having these conversations in the calm moment. (00:18:24): So continue working on skills, (00:18:27): having conversations about feelings and emotions, (00:18:31): and reading books about big feelings and emotions in the calm moments, (00:18:35): because this is how we increase emotional resilience and learn skills. (00:18:41): This is great. (00:18:42): So I was a child like this. (00:18:43): I was an, you know, I hate you don't leave me sort of child. (00:18:47): And I definitely agree. (00:18:48): I think there's a lot of shame. (00:18:49): I think there's a sensitivity component there and just getting overwhelmed. (00:18:53): You know, (00:18:54): the other thing I would say is I think it's so great that you're able to talk (00:18:58): through her, (00:18:58): through this with her outside of those moments. (00:19:01): You know, our kids don't have to react in the textbook way. (00:19:05): And there's no rule that you have to talk about (00:19:08): the things she's upset about when it's happening and what she's showing you is she (00:19:12): can't talk about it yet. (00:19:14): I think it seems to me like this mom is already handling this great and it's just (00:19:19): worried that she's not doing enough, (00:19:20): but I think she's doing wonderfully. (00:19:23): Absolutely. (00:19:23): It's all a lot of parenting is about recalibrating our expectations. (00:19:28): Yeah, absolutely. (00:19:31): All right. (00:19:31): Let's see. (00:19:32): I, I think this is from the same mom that, (00:19:35): as the first question, because it's a lot of similar details. (00:19:38): Here's what she says. (00:19:39): I am self-employed working from home with my daughter, (00:19:42): two years, (00:19:42): four months in early headstart for six hours a day, (00:19:45): four to five days a week. (00:19:47): I only get a few hours to work because of the travel time to and from her school. (00:19:52): I do my best to only work in the evenings after she is asleep, (00:19:55): but sometimes she doesn't go to sleep until it is my bedtime. (00:19:57): Oh God, poor thing. (00:19:59): Sometimes she is off Fridays or Mondays, (00:20:01): and sometimes I have to finish projects over the weekend. (00:20:03): When I have to work, (00:20:04): I use Miss Rachel and several other similar programs in English and Spanish to keep (00:20:08): her from continually interrupting me. (00:20:11): Is TV time really that bad? (00:20:13): She is hitting all of her milestones and is ahead of most her age. (00:20:16): She can even count to 20 in English, 10 plus in Spanish, and knows most of her letters. (00:20:21): She does have symptoms of autism. (00:20:23): I see all the time that TV is so bad, but am I really harming her? (00:20:28): Such a great question. (00:20:30): I think screen time is one of the biggest challenges that we have to navigate as (00:20:34): parents in today's world. (00:20:36): And it's often really emotionally charged and can bring up a lot of feelings of guilt. (00:20:42): I talk a lot about screen time in my book and have a chapter dedicated to it (00:20:45): because it's such an important topic where I present a lot of research. (00:20:49): And it's amazing that this little one's hitting all of her milestones. (00:20:52): And the thing is, is that (00:20:55): What I like to talk about is creating healthy screen time habits, (00:20:59): which is going to look different for every family because every child is unique. (00:21:04): Some children are going to be more sensitive to screens than others. (00:21:08): Definitely the younger a child is. (00:21:12): less screen time is better because there's more than a million neuropathways and (00:21:16): connections being made every second in the first three years of life. (00:21:20): And the pathways that are used the most are the ones that get wired and the ones (00:21:24): that are used less, (00:21:25): um, (00:21:26): are being used less. (00:21:28): And so they get pruned away. (00:21:31): And we know that screens can stimulate the reward pathways in the brain. (00:21:35): Um, (00:21:36): That being said, (00:21:37): though, (00:21:37): that sometimes it's not about hitting milestones, (00:21:40): like being able to, (00:21:42): you know, (00:21:43): hit your speech milestones and things like that. (00:21:45): Sometimes there is a sensory component where screens just are overstimulating for (00:21:50): some kids and can cause more power struggles, (00:21:53): tantrums and meltdowns throughout the day. (00:21:56): And it's a cumulative effect. (00:21:57): And parents don't realize that that's what's happening until they take screen time (00:22:01): away for a few weeks. (00:22:02): and then see a drastic change in their child's behavior. (00:22:05): So again, (00:22:06): what you want to do is look at your unique child and see what, (00:22:10): and get curious about what is the impact here, (00:22:13): what's happening with screens. (00:22:14): And then also whenever you're deciding to use screens, (00:22:17): it's also about balancing it out with other activities. (00:22:21): How much time is your kiddo getting to spend like outside in nature? (00:22:25): How much time are you spending reading together? (00:22:27): And so make sure that you can do other activities at times that help counterbalance (00:22:32): being on screens. (00:22:33): And also one other thing is that some kids with sensory challenges have (00:22:39): actually find screens very calming at the same time. (00:22:43): So that's why there's no right one size fits all approach for screens for children. (00:22:49): We have to take the research and then we have to look at our unique child to (00:22:53): understand the impact and create healthy habits for our families. (00:22:58): I agree with this. (00:22:59): They're individuals. (00:23:00): They're people just like us. (00:23:01): Shocking. (00:23:01): I know. (00:23:04): Imagine that. (00:23:05): Imagine. (00:23:06): So I will say we were, my husband and I, we actually didn't have a TV for years. (00:23:11): We were diehard anti-TV for all children for years. (00:23:17): And then we sort of started experimenting with screens. (00:23:20): And what we found is that we have one child who really benefits from watching TV (00:23:25): and watching larger quantities of TV than I would have ever been comfortable with. (00:23:30): It's soothing for her. (00:23:31): She does other interesting things while she's doing it. (00:23:34): And then we have another child who turns into Satan if she watches any television at all. (00:23:39): So, you know, a little hard to manage in the same house, but you just have to kind of see. (00:23:46): I also think, (00:23:47): you know, (00:23:47): like so many of these parenting questions, (00:23:50): there's kind of some other hidden problems here. (00:23:52): And one is the childcare piece. (00:23:55): Um, (00:23:56): you know, (00:23:57): I have seen with mothers, (00:24:00): first of all, (00:24:00): child care is inaccessible to many and unaffordable to many and all of that. (00:24:05): So if that's what's going on here, you know, that's what's going on. (00:24:08): And there may not be anything you can do about it, (00:24:10): but you may want to explore like trading out with a neighbor, (00:24:14): you know, (00:24:14): seeing if you can do kind of like a co-op thing with friends, (00:24:17): whatever you can do to get some child care. (00:24:19): But then I also know moms who just feel so guilty about using child care and they (00:24:24): think that they (00:24:25): have to be with their child every second that they're able to be. (00:24:29): And, you know, no one ever expects dads to work without child care. (00:24:34): So I would look into the child care piece. (00:24:37): And I would also say that like some parenting is harm reduction. (00:24:41): So even let's say we decide for this particular child that screens are not great. (00:24:47): That doesn't necessarily mean we have to have an absolute no on screens because (00:24:51): she's got a mother who has to work. (00:24:53): And like working and making money is a need too. (00:24:56): So I feel like I am sensing some like ambivalence about work and childcare wrapped (00:25:03): up in this question. (00:25:05): Yeah, absolutely. (00:25:06): I really probably should just correct myself and rephrase is that child care is (00:25:11): probably one of the biggest challenges we're going to face as parents of young (00:25:16): children. (00:25:17): Screen time and screens in general are probably the largest challenge we'll face (00:25:23): over the lifespan of being a parent. (00:25:25): But definitely child care in the early years. (00:25:28): And I've even had my fair share of (00:25:30): of childcare challenges and also the guilt associated with using, um, childcare. (00:25:37): And so I can really, (00:25:39): really empathize, (00:25:41): um, (00:25:41): with parents in these, (00:25:43): in these situations and in these moments. (00:25:45): And I think one big concept to keep in mind when it comes to parenting is what we (00:25:51): want to do is work on meeting our child's needs within our boundaries, (00:25:56): but for something to be working and (00:25:59): We need to, (00:26:00): it needs to be working for our child and to be working for us, (00:26:04): but that doesn't mean it has to be perfect. (00:26:06): So that might mean that there's times when we use a screen because we need to meet our needs. (00:26:13): But then there's other times where we go outside or read books because we're (00:26:17): meeting our child's needs and that, (00:26:20): you know, (00:26:20): a lot of parenting is balancing everyone's needs and everyone's needs might not (00:26:25): always be perfectly met. (00:26:27): every moment. (00:26:28): And that's part of that. (00:26:30): Finding that balance is just knowing that sometimes one person's needs have to be (00:26:35): prioritized over the others. (00:26:37): Totally. (00:26:38): All right. (00:26:38): This one made me laugh out loud because this question is like the story of my (00:26:42): entire life as a parent and like every other parent I know. (00:26:46): Here's what she says. (00:26:48): My toddler does something I've begun to think of as the Hunger Games. (00:26:52): She gets a snack, eats a bite, (00:26:54): says she's not hungry anymore, then five minutes later, she wants another snack. (00:26:58): This can go on for hours. (00:27:01): I understand the rules about parents offering food and kids deciding what to eat (00:27:04): and not using foods as rewards and all of that, (00:27:07): but this is taking up so much of my life. (00:27:10): It's a huge demand on my time, (00:27:11): a huge amount of intellectual labor, (00:27:13): and to me feels like setting her up for really disordered eating. (00:27:17): I never knew how angry the phrase, I'm still hungry, could make me. (00:27:22): What should I do? (00:27:25): It's so challenging. (00:27:27): Whenever, (00:27:28): whenever it comes to kiddos, (00:27:31): and, (00:27:32): you know, (00:27:33): their food preferences and picky eating and all of the things, (00:27:37): there's so many emotions. (00:27:39): in our own stories tied up into food and what we feed our children. (00:27:44): In situations like this, there's a couple of things that we can do. (00:27:47): It might be that there needs to be a little more structure around meals and snacks. (00:27:53): So maybe it is like implementing some type of structure, (00:27:57): which will be hard at first because children don't like change. (00:28:00): Quite frankly, no one really likes change, right? (00:28:03): We all kind of like (00:28:04): You know, changes is part of the unknown and the unknown can feel scary sometimes. (00:28:09): So oftentimes when toddlers meet a limit in an area that there previously wasn't a (00:28:15): limit, (00:28:15): they're going to have a pretty big reaction, (00:28:17): whether it's crying, (00:28:18): screaming, (00:28:19): yelling, (00:28:19): kicking, (00:28:20): hitting, (00:28:20): whatever it might be, (00:28:22): because they're releasing their emotions about it. (00:28:24): And there's a little bit of hope that the outburst might change things. (00:28:28): So the number one rule with setting limits is only set the limits you're willing to (00:28:32): follow through on. (00:28:34): So I wanna recognize that if you decide to start setting limits around snacks, (00:28:38): which might be setting out the snacks for the day in the morning and your child (00:28:44): choosing to eat them whenever she wants and then learning to like regulate herself (00:28:48): with like these are the snacks or whether that is in the morning waking up, (00:28:53): choosing what the morning snack it will be in the afternoon snack. (00:28:57): And then letting those snacks be the snacks and not bringing out more snacks until (00:29:02): those ones are gone and have been eaten. (00:29:05): Same thing with a meal. (00:29:06): Like if my child sits down to a meal and he eats like two bites and says he's not (00:29:11): hungry, (00:29:11): I got him down from the table. (00:29:14): But then... (00:29:16): 15 minutes later, when he says he's hungry, I say, oh, good. (00:29:18): I'm so glad you're hungry. (00:29:20): Your food's still at the table for you. (00:29:22): First couple of times, there was, you know, a lot of pushback. (00:29:26): The other day, we had a 10-minute meltdown because he didn't eat his lunch. (00:29:29): It was 3 p.m. (00:29:31): And I served him his lunch again. (00:29:32): And he really wanted snacks. (00:29:34): And after the 10-minute meltdown, (00:29:36): he ate the rest of his lunch, (00:29:37): not all of it, (00:29:38): said his belly was full and forgot he even asked for a snack. (00:29:40): Yeah. (00:29:41): Um, he's three years and two months. (00:29:44): So anyways, (00:29:46): it can be challenging to get over the hump of setting those first limits and (00:29:50): creating that first structure because there will be pushback, (00:29:53): but then life gets immensely easier once the structure is in place and everyone (00:29:58): understands the structure. (00:30:00): So I, (00:30:01): I love it that you mentioned structure because I have become sort of a structure (00:30:06): zealot in recent years. (00:30:08): And I, (00:30:09): I kind of want to talk to you a little bit about this and get your thoughts because (00:30:14): I've come to believe that all children just really do better with structure. (00:30:18): And the harder it is for a family to implement structure, kind of the more they need it. (00:30:24): I often find that my neurodivergent friends say, (00:30:29): well, (00:30:29): you know, (00:30:29): my kid really doesn't do well with structure. (00:30:31): And what they really mean is that it's really hard for them to implement structure. (00:30:35): And there's also kind of this notion that like structure means rigidity. (00:30:39): It means being punitive and aggressive and mean, but it's not. (00:30:43): It's just like helping kids know what to expect throughout the day. (00:30:46): So can you talk a little bit more about this structure component and kind of (00:30:51): setting up like the infrastructure of your family for success? (00:30:54): Yeah, well, structure is very important because especially the younger a child is. (00:31:00): But of course, structure is really important also for older children, too. (00:31:04): But it creates a sense of safety and security, just like limits do. (00:31:09): Because if there's not a limit, (00:31:12): if there's not structure, (00:31:13): sometimes that gives kids too much power. (00:31:16): And yes, kids crave a sense of control. (00:31:20): They crave having power, (00:31:22): but when they're too powerful, (00:31:23): behaviors tend to snowball because they're looking for that limit or they're (00:31:27): looking to come up against that structure. (00:31:29): So what I like to say in terms of structure is that (00:31:35): you want to have freedom within boundaries. (00:31:37): You want to let your child say you have a strong willed child, (00:31:40): you need to set the boundaries, (00:31:41): but then give them option and choices within those boundaries. (00:31:45): So then they have a sense of control, but you've created the boundary for it. (00:31:50): Or whenever it comes to your day, (00:31:53): like the way your day goes, (00:31:55): instead of thinking of a rigid schedule, (00:31:57): it's more of like a daily rhythm. (00:31:59): That one thing follows the next thing within a general timeframe. (00:32:04): Because remember, it doesn't have to be perfect. (00:32:08): It doesn't have to be like military precision. (00:32:11): It needs to be predictable. (00:32:14): More often than not, it's predictable that you're going to respond in a certain way. (00:32:19): more often than not, it's predictable that something's going to happen. (00:32:23): It doesn't have to be perfect. (00:32:24): There's always room for spontaneity and surprises. (00:32:29): And of course, life's curve balls as they always come. (00:32:32): Um, (00:32:33): so some places that we can implement structure is in different routines, (00:32:37): like morning routines, (00:32:39): evening routines, (00:32:41): um, (00:32:43): structure around food and meals, (00:32:46): structure around daily tasks or chores that we do in the home together as a family. (00:32:54): Even structure around things like who's putting the kids to bed, (00:33:00): who's, (00:33:00): you know, (00:33:01): like maybe parents might rotate and there's a structure for that, (00:33:04): or who's going to choose the movie for movie night. (00:33:08): And then it's rotating and there's a structure there. (00:33:10): So there's a lot of different opportunities and (00:33:12): to create structure but again structure um means that something is predictable it's (00:33:19): not necessarily rigid yeah i think that's i think that's wonderful all right i (00:33:25): actually dealt with this myself this week so i'm eager to hear what you think um (00:33:30): what tips tricks and child honoring perspectives do you have about helping littles (00:33:34): take medicine i'm all about body autonomy so for the most part we just skip it if (00:33:39): she says no (00:33:40): Fortunately, (00:33:41): the time we had antibiotics, (00:33:42): it miraculously went pretty smoothly most of the time. (00:33:46): But now she's recently been sick with a fever of upwards of 104, (00:33:49): and none of us got decent sleep for a few nights in a row when she refused to take (00:33:53): any medicine, (00:33:54): poor kid. (00:33:55): Do you have any special strategies or sanity-saving mantras for parents? (00:34:00): Oh, well, sanity-saving mantras. (00:34:03): So we have to understand that no matter what we think or our brains try to trick us (00:34:10): into thinking, (00:34:11): control is an illusion. (00:34:14): We cannot control another individual. (00:34:17): And we spend a lot of parenting fighting against that and trying to control our (00:34:23): child, (00:34:24): trying to control our parenting partner. (00:34:27): When really the only person we can control is ourselves. (00:34:30): And quite frankly, that's challenging at times, right? (00:34:34): So that controls an illusion would be my first mantra. (00:34:38): Second, (00:34:40): when it comes to medicine, (00:34:42): it can be challenging, (00:34:43): especially if you have a highly sensitive child. (00:34:46): Some, and especially in toddlerhood, when kids push back against the things that we think. (00:34:50): So I'm going to give some quick tips here. (00:34:53): The first is, if your child refuses the medicine once, don't give up, try again. (00:34:59): There are some like a chewable medicine for when my son is sick. (00:35:05): That he refused. (00:35:06): And I thought, oh my gosh, he's never gonna take this. (00:35:09): Two months later, he got sick again. (00:35:10): I gave it to him. (00:35:11): Now he thinks it's like candy. (00:35:13): He like thinks it's the best thing ever. (00:35:15): And he's asking for it now that he's better. (00:35:17): And I would have never thought in a million years he'd ever accept to chew this medicine. (00:35:21): So just because your child rejects it once, (00:35:24): doesn't mean that they're always going to reject it. (00:35:27): So just like with new foods, exposure counts. (00:35:30): And sometimes we need lots of exposures, 20 plus exposures before a child will say yes. (00:35:36): And then try to make it, try to reduce the pressure. (00:35:40): So put the medicine out, but then like walk away. (00:35:45): Go get involved in something else and see if your child gets curious and comes back to it. (00:35:50): Do your best to hide it in something else. (00:35:52): Even if it's something you might not typically give your child, (00:35:55): like potentially, (00:35:57): I'm trying to think of something that might have a stronger flavor, (00:36:00): like chocolate pudding. (00:36:02): My child does not like chocolate, so that would not work for us. (00:36:05): But something that has like a stronger flavor that your child might be enticed to eat or drink. (00:36:12): And then I would say in the end, (00:36:15): bodily autonomy is so important and it's our job to keep our kids healthy and safe. (00:36:22): So sometimes we have to cross our child's bodily autonomy. (00:36:26): for things like proper use of antibiotics per se, (00:36:30): like, (00:36:30): because you don't want to create antibiotic resistance, (00:36:33): right? (00:36:34): But maybe when it comes to something like a fever, (00:36:36): and if the fever, (00:36:39): you know, (00:36:39): isn't too high and not, (00:36:41): you know, (00:36:42): causing seizures or something like this, (00:36:44): maybe you can use some other (00:36:46): home remedies to try to reduce the fever, (00:36:49): such as, (00:36:50): you know, (00:36:50): a cool washcloth, (00:36:52): different things like that, (00:36:53): that can help reduce the fever until your child's willing to accept it. (00:36:58): So as parents, (00:36:59): these are some of the tough decisions that we have to make in terms of when is it (00:37:05): absolutely necessary to cross our child's bodily autonomy to keep them safe and (00:37:10): healthy. (00:37:11): Yeah, I think that's I think that's great advice. (00:37:13): You know, (00:37:15): I think here again, (00:37:16): we see that sometimes needs are in conflict and sometimes you both want to respect (00:37:20): your child's bodily autonomy and maybe they have a serious infection and we also (00:37:25): want to respect their continuing to live. (00:37:27): So it comes down to, you know, which is the higher value right now? (00:37:34): Absolutely. (00:37:34): And maybe it's also changing the format. (00:37:37): Some parents might have trouble giving like a liquid suspension, (00:37:41): but if you can get a pill and crush it up and hide it in something that might go (00:37:45): down better. (00:37:46): And I think that doctors and pharmacists automatically assume that (00:37:50): that a flavored liquid is like what kids will want. (00:37:53): But sometimes a flavored liquid is way harder to hide in something than a crushed up pill. (00:37:58): So always ask about your options as well, (00:38:00): because sometimes there's options there that we didn't know about. (00:38:05): And until we ask. (00:38:07): I also really like your advice about exposures and to keep trying. (00:38:11): And I feel like this is something I do as a parent, (00:38:14): but I've never really thought very consciously about it. (00:38:17): But I (00:38:17): I do feel like I see a lot of people say, (00:38:19): well, (00:38:19): he said no one time and that's like a no forever. (00:38:23): But I've got a kid who will, (00:38:25): you know, (00:38:25): say that something is a hell no and, (00:38:27): you know, (00:38:28): that she's going to get us if we make her do it. (00:38:31): And then like the next time we offer it, she's totally fine. (00:38:34): So you just, you never know what you're going to get. (00:38:36): Yeah. (00:38:37): Because a lot of our children's reaction has to do with, (00:38:41): you know, (00:38:42): how, (00:38:43): how are they doing in that moment? (00:38:46): How are their emotions doing? (00:38:48): How are their basic needs going? (00:38:50): Are they hungry? (00:38:51): Are they tired? (00:38:52): How's their sensory system doing in their sensory needs? (00:38:55): Um, how are their developmental needs going right now? (00:38:58): Have they felt empowered today? (00:39:00): Have they felt a sense of control or have they felt like everything's happening to (00:39:04): them and they haven't had any control over their lives that day? (00:39:07): So that a lot of, um, (00:39:10): Those things factor into how our child responds in any given moment. (00:39:15): But you could ask the same thing sometimes five minutes later and get a completely (00:39:19): different answer. (00:39:20): Or you just leave something out where your child is like, no, no, no. (00:39:24): You walk away and then they're doing the thing they just said no to because it's (00:39:28): like almost like they need to reserve the right to say no. (00:39:31): And once they know their voice has been seen and heard, then they're fine doing the thing. (00:39:35): Yeah, I think that's great. (00:39:36): All right. (00:39:38): The next one. (00:39:39): All she says is how can I support my son with his fears about being dead? (00:39:45): Yes. (00:39:46): Well, (00:39:46): it's challenging for me to answer that question without knowing an age, (00:39:49): because there are different. (00:39:54): When we talk about death, we want to talk about death in a way that's concrete and (00:39:59): with young children, (00:40:00): but we don't want to give more details than what they can handle or that is (00:40:07): developmentally appropriate. (00:40:09): And so it would be helpful to know the child's age. (00:40:11): But what I would say is that the biggest thing is getting curious with any (00:40:17): challenging conversation. (00:40:19): Any of those conversations that were like, oh my gosh, how do we talk about this? (00:40:22): What are we going to do? (00:40:23): Those things that feel really big and heavy, getting curious. (00:40:28): Where did you hear this? (00:40:29): What do you think about that? (00:40:31): How does that make you feel? (00:40:34): Tell me more. (00:40:35): I'd love to understand this, (00:40:37): you know, (00:40:38): so just like getting curious, (00:40:40): but then getting curious and curious and curious because sometimes we got it. (00:40:44): It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, right? (00:40:46): Like we got, (00:40:47): we can't just get curious once we've got to like continue the conversation to kind (00:40:51): of get in there. (00:40:53): And then from there, (00:40:55): that can help us understand where our child's head is at, (00:40:59): what they're thinking and feeling, (00:41:01): and then better equipped to address what's happening. (00:41:04): But typically kids need a lot of love and reassurance in these moments. (00:41:09): However, some kids can have anxiety and (00:41:14): and can have other challenges. (00:41:15): And so then they'll get stuck on something and start to ruminate on it. (00:41:19): And this is when it's supportive to get the support of a child therapist to support (00:41:28): because sometimes it's actually something more that's happening that is beyond what (00:41:34): we may have the capacity to fully support and resolve on our own as parents. (00:41:38): And there's never any shame in asking for support. (00:41:43): I love that. (00:41:43): I think that's great advice. (00:41:46): We've had to deal with this a lot in our family because we've had a lot of death in our family. (00:41:51): Our second daughter died a year to the day before my mom died. (00:41:56): And so our oldest was plagued with all kinds of anxieties and fears about death. (00:42:02): And, you know, it left us with some ideas about how to address it. (00:42:06): So what I would say is that, you know, (00:42:09): I think part of why it's hard for us to talk to our children about death is that (00:42:12): it's hard for us as adults to think about death. (00:42:16): And I think maybe getting clear about your own values and your own attitudes and (00:42:20): making sure that you don't bring your own panic about death into those (00:42:24): conversations. (00:42:26): You know, (00:42:26): I know a lot of people find it's easy to fall back on their spiritual beliefs and (00:42:31): there's (00:42:32): You know, nothing inherently wrong with that. (00:42:34): But if that's your sole source of comfort, (00:42:37): it can become a problem if your child rejects those beliefs because then they also (00:42:41): will not get any of the comfort those beliefs offer. (00:42:45): So for us, what we have done is we offer a lot of reassurance. (00:42:50): We try to understand what our kids are feeling. (00:42:53): And I've been asking my kids to think about life before birth. (00:42:56): That wasn't that bad, right? (00:42:57): We don't remember anything terrible about that. (00:43:00): Well, as far as we know, being dead is about the same. (00:43:02): And that seems to have been really helpful to them. (00:43:05): You know, your mileage may vary. (00:43:07): Every child is different. (00:43:09): And I would just also add that, you know, fears of death are usually really fears of separation. (00:43:15): They're fears of being away from their parents, from people they love, of the unknown. (00:43:20): So I make sure to reassure my kids about this and to tell them that my love and the (00:43:25): things that I have taught them will always be with them and that the people who (00:43:29): love them are doing everything they can to be with them. (00:43:32): And we talk a little bit about legacy too, (00:43:34): that, (00:43:35): you know, (00:43:35): legacy is what we build and how we live on through the good things that we do. (00:43:39): This isn't going to work with a two-year-old, (00:43:41): but it will often work really well with a four or five-year-old. (00:43:44): So you just got to scale up or scale down based on your kids' needs. (00:43:47): And no, your kid talking about death, don't let it panic you. (00:43:51): Because I think as soon as kids start talking about being dead, (00:43:54): parents start picturing their kids being dead. (00:43:56): And it becomes very hard for us to think rationally about how to respond. (00:44:00): Yeah. (00:44:02): Absolutely. (00:44:03): It, (00:44:04): because there's a lot of our own fears wrapped up in this and there's going to be (00:44:09): things that happen, (00:44:10): whether it's your pet dying or even a friend's pet. (00:44:14): Oftentimes there's always opportunities to have these conversations and start (00:44:20): bridging this topic. (00:44:21): And often I, you know, (00:44:23): recommend, (00:44:25): you know, (00:44:26): it's not that you necessarily want to put ideas into your child's head, (00:44:29): but also talking about things when they happen and not avoiding it because you're (00:44:34): afraid. (00:44:35): It's actually best because just because a child doesn't ask a question when they hear about (00:44:44): maybe like a pet dying or a family member dying or a miscarriage or something like (00:44:48): this, (00:44:49): just because they don't voice their thoughts and questions doesn't mean they don't (00:44:54): have thoughts and questions and feelings about it. (00:44:56): Yeah. (00:44:57): The avoidance bit, I think is really important. (00:45:00): We had an experience when my oldest was in kindergarten where her teacher's child died and the (00:45:08): Obviously, horrifically tragic for the teacher. (00:45:12): But none of the parents told their children what had happened except for us. (00:45:16): And none of them went to the funeral. (00:45:18): And I thought, this is a pretty safe exposure to death. (00:45:22): This is someone that they don't know. (00:45:23): It's someone who's, you know, the teacher's child, but not an actual child. (00:45:28): And, (00:45:28): you know, (00:45:28): this is a good introduction into how we can show up to support grieving people and (00:45:33): how we can talk about these things. (00:45:36): And, (00:45:36): you know, (00:45:37): instead, (00:45:37): the lesson that these kids learned is, (00:45:39): you know, (00:45:39): you just hide from it and you don't show up to support the person. (00:45:42): And I just I thought that was terrible. (00:45:43): Mm hmm. (00:45:45): Yeah, absolutely. (00:45:47): And I think I was actually just at a funeral the other day and there were a lot of (00:45:52): one and two year olds there. (00:45:54): It was their great grandfather who passed away. (00:45:56): And I was so excited to see all of those kiddos there because, (00:46:01): you know, (00:46:02): I think we want to protect our kids, (00:46:04): but somehow the best protection is talking about the elephant in the room. (00:46:09): Yeah. (00:46:10): And preparing them for the things that are tough because eventually they're going to be exposed. (00:46:15): And do we want it to be when they're five and we're there to support them or when, (00:46:19): you know, (00:46:20): they're 50 and they've had no practice? (00:46:24): Absolutely. (00:46:25): I love this next question as our last question. (00:46:28): Here's what she says. (00:46:29): Devin, (00:46:30): I started following your work several years ago, (00:46:32): and I really appreciated so much of your wisdom. (00:46:34): Yes, practice makes progress. (00:46:37): That's true for me as much as it is for my kid. (00:46:40): And I have your reasons to love the toddler years printed out and posted at home. (00:46:44): Thinking about how your work intersects with Zahn's, (00:46:47): I would love to hear your advice about one of the biggest challenges I have been (00:46:50): dealing with. (00:46:51): How can I approach disagreements or outright arguments between me and my co-parent (00:46:55): that arise in front of my kid? (00:46:57): Conflict avoidance and suffering and silence were the main models I had as a child. (00:47:02): So I would love to model constructive conflict management for her, (00:47:06): but we do not manage conflict constructively 99% of the time. (00:47:11): It's so challenging. (00:47:13): This is such a great question. (00:47:15): And what I want to say is this starts – there's several levels of what you can do here. (00:47:23): And one great place to start is to talk to your parenting partner and to see if you (00:47:28): can come to an agreement to when someone is getting escalated in front of the (00:47:35): children, (00:47:36): if it's okay if the other person says – (00:47:39): Can we pause and talk about this later? (00:47:43): Or can we hit pause? (00:47:44): Something like this. (00:47:45): And kind of like agree on a phrase that can be said when one person notices the (00:47:52): other person getting escalated. (00:47:54): This is ideal if you and your parenting partner can come to an agreement around this. (00:47:59): Um, (00:48:00): if not, (00:48:00): that might not always be possible, (00:48:02): but if it is, (00:48:02): it can be really helpful because it's a great way to interrupt the cycle, (00:48:06): um, (00:48:07): to kind of end the conflict in front of your child at the same time that when we (00:48:12): talk about repairing the relationship, (00:48:14): um, (00:48:14): whenever we lose it and yell, (00:48:17): it's great to like put on loud speaker and help children understand what they've (00:48:23): heard or witnessed. (00:48:24): So saying something like mommy and daddy, um, (00:48:28): or mommy and mommy or daddy and daddy, we didn't agree here. (00:48:35): And we started to feel frustrated and raise our voices. (00:48:40): And we shouldn't have done that. (00:48:41): Sometimes it's really hard not to yell whenever you feel frustrated. (00:48:47): And I'm sorry that you had to hear that. (00:48:50): It's not about you. (00:48:52): We just didn't agree. (00:48:54): And we're going to work it out. (00:48:55): And next time we don't agree, we're going to try blank, blank, blank, you know? (00:48:59): So just kind of like walking your child through it, (00:49:02): putting on loudspeaker what happened and kind of working through it. (00:49:08): As I said previously, we can't control our parenting partners. (00:49:12): We can only control ourselves. (00:49:13): But what we can do is talk to our children about what they witness, (00:49:18): about what they hear and help them make sense of it and help give them a narrative (00:49:25): and (00:49:25): to work through it. (00:49:27): And that's probably the biggest power that we have and that we can use not only (00:49:32): with like whenever we fight or have a disagreement with our parenting partner, (00:49:36): but our children are going to see all kinds of things, (00:49:39): right? (00:49:39): They might go to school and have a disagreement with a friend, (00:49:41): or they might witness a coach, (00:49:44): you know, (00:49:44): a sports coach, (00:49:45): like, (00:49:46): you know, (00:49:46): being like inappropriately tough or saying something. (00:49:49): Right. (00:49:50): And so (00:49:51): again, (00:49:51): we can't control all the other people that our children are around, (00:49:54): but we can help them make sense of their experiences. (00:49:57): Yeah, I think that's true. (00:49:58): And I like the emphasis on not controlling your parenting partner. (00:50:03): There's a whole range of ways these conflicts unfold and ranging from you're both (00:50:09): behaving inappropriately to you're actively being abused. (00:50:14): And what I would encourage is if you're not (00:50:17): necessarily actively being abused um to think about what you can do to control your (00:50:23): own behavior in the moment because if you can control your own behavior you (00:50:27): actually still can model healthy conflict resolution if your partner's coming at (00:50:32): you and going nuts what you can model is saying whoa i'm not going to talk about (00:50:37): this like that right now and and that is that is healthy conflict management and (00:50:41): it's boundaries assertion and it's all kinds of stuff that kids need to see um (00:50:46): Another thing that we do with our kids that they love and that has been really (00:50:50): helpful and we start doing like as soon as they can talk is something we call the (00:50:54): tricky situation game where we'll present them with a scenario where someone's (00:51:00): doing something wholly unreasonable. (00:51:02): And what do you do in this situation? (00:51:04): And they love it when we keep adding layers upon layers. (00:51:07): So it starts with, you know, this kid. (00:51:10): It's yelling at this other kid at school. (00:51:12): What do you think you should do? (00:51:14): And then we'll add, (00:51:14): and then another person on a bike rides by and throws garbage at you and make it (00:51:18): more and more absurd, (00:51:19): but also more and more conflict to get them used to the idea of like, (00:51:23): what would I do in this situation that I might encounter? (00:51:29): You know, (00:51:29): it's not perfect and it doesn't necessarily prepare their nervous systems for the (00:51:32): reality of those situations, (00:51:34): but it does get their brains thinking about how they might like to handle them. (00:51:39): I love this. (00:51:40): And there's also a really great toy company called Eboo, E-E-B-O-O. (00:51:46): And they make these really great card sets. (00:51:48): Like, I heard your feelings. (00:51:51): What do I do? (00:51:52): And what's going on here? (00:51:54): And there are scenarios, like you're talking about, that you play in this game. (00:51:59): And it has... (00:52:01): you know, (00:52:02): some guidelines so you can really support your child in navigating social (00:52:07): expectations, (00:52:08): reading the emotions of different situations, (00:52:12): social and logical inference, (00:52:14): all of these things. (00:52:15): It is a really, really amazing resource if you need like some guidelines to do that. (00:52:22): And I also have an entire chapter in my book (00:52:26): called Parenting Together, (00:52:27): which is essentially how to bridge the gap between you and your parenting partner (00:52:33): when you don't agree or you feel unsupported. (00:52:36): And I have a lot of different tools, (00:52:38): especially my conversation for bridging the gap and a lot of tips in there as well. (00:52:46): I love the Ibu. (00:52:48): I've never heard of them, so I'm going to have to look them up. (00:52:50): That sounds spectacular. (00:52:51): They're amazing. (00:52:52): Yeah. (00:52:53): Devin, (00:52:53): thank you so much for your work to take the terror out of toddlerhood and to (00:52:57): support parents to be the parents we want to be. (00:53:00): You are making a difference. (00:53:01): And more importantly, (00:53:03): I believe that this parenting style is really going to protect the next generation, (00:53:08): make them less vulnerable to abuse, (00:53:10): make them into the world changers we know that they can be. (00:53:14): Thank you so much. (00:53:16): I believe the same. (00:53:16): And that's why I'm out here every day doing this work. (00:53:19): And I just want to thank everyone for being here and listening to this conversation. (00:53:24): Awesome. (00:53:25): I will put all of Devin's information, including her new book, in the show notes. (00:53:30): And I will be back next week. (00:53:31): Thank you so much for listening.