1 00:00:05,125 --> 00:00:06,775 Good morning grid connections listeners. 2 00:00:06,775 --> 00:00:16,158 Welcome back to grid connections, the podcast where we explore the intersection of clean energy, electric vehicles, and the infrastructure powering our future. 3 00:00:16,318 --> 00:00:19,719 We're also excited to announce the launch of grid connections consulting, 4 00:00:19,719 --> 00:00:27,587 where we're helping government agencies, utilities, and developers simplify EV education and electrification strategy. 5 00:00:27,587 --> 00:00:30,750 You can learn more at gridconnections.co. 6 00:00:30,891 --> 00:00:33,283 In today's episode, I'm joined by Joseph Nagel. 7 00:00:33,283 --> 00:00:36,317 He's the head of corporate strategy at Pando Electric. 8 00:00:36,317 --> 00:00:42,865 We go on a deep dive into how their outlet-based electric vehicle charging approach is transforming multifamily housing. 9 00:00:42,865 --> 00:00:51,000 We explore why simplicity, reliability, and cost-effective installation are the keys to unlocking mass EV adoption in apartment communities. 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:01:00,357 We also break down how vehicle-to-home and eventually vehicle-to-grade capabilities could turn parked EVs into grid assets and why multifamily owners have a massive untapped 11 00:01:00,357 --> 00:01:04,149 opportunity to turn their buildings into distributed energy hubs. 12 00:01:04,169 --> 00:01:07,239 Plus, Joseph shares what he saw at the EV Charging Summit. 13 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:14,839 why smart building energy management is the next frontier and why tap and charge may finally make EV charging more convenient than a gas station. 14 00:01:14,839 --> 00:01:22,699 If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend or colleague who's curious about electrification and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. 15 00:01:22,699 --> 00:01:28,495 Don't forget to sign up for our new newsletter at gridconnections.fm slash newsletter. 16 00:01:28,495 --> 00:01:35,822 You can also use the link in the show notes today to stay in the loop with the latest trends and insights from grid connections and our consulting practice. 17 00:01:35,823 --> 00:01:37,735 With that, enjoy. 18 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:44,521 Joe, thank you so much for coming back on. 19 00:01:44,521 --> 00:01:52,577 know before we went live, we had quite a few different topics we wanted to cover today, but thanks for coming back and I'm excited to get into it today. 20 00:01:53,069 --> 00:01:55,244 Likewise, and thanks for having me again. 21 00:01:56,717 --> 00:02:06,268 So just in case anyone is not familiar with what you and the team do at Pando Electric Joe, can you just kind of give a just high overview of what your company and team does and 22 00:02:06,268 --> 00:02:08,001 then kind of your role at the company? 23 00:02:08,473 --> 00:02:18,275 Yeah, so I'm the head of corporate strategy here at Pando Electric and we make electric vehicle charging outlets that are specifically designed for multifamily facilities. 24 00:02:18,316 --> 00:02:28,438 And the reason we went with an EV charging outlet rather than a traditional EV charging system really boils down to one thing and that's costs. 25 00:02:28,618 --> 00:02:34,140 Not so much costs to the EV driver, but costs to the property owner themselves. 26 00:02:34,140 --> 00:02:37,161 So the upfront cost for a lot of owners 27 00:02:38,722 --> 00:02:43,064 is reduced by about 50 to 70 % when you go with Pando Electric. 28 00:02:43,124 --> 00:02:50,246 That's because in the National Electric Code, because they're outlets, we're allowed to daisy chain our outlets together. 29 00:02:50,882 --> 00:03:00,911 And because of that, paired with our adaptive load management technology, we're able to cut down a lot on the infrastructure costs, not only on the infrastructure costs, but the 30 00:03:00,911 --> 00:03:01,731 install time. 31 00:03:01,731 --> 00:03:07,193 So a lot less money being paid to the electrician because they're on site a lot fewer hours. 32 00:03:07,493 --> 00:03:12,356 And then on top of that, because they're outlets, they actually carry no ongoing maintenance. 33 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:13,857 So they never really break. 34 00:03:13,857 --> 00:03:20,460 So it's actually a huge benefit to the EV driver themselves that the station is always ready and available. 35 00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:28,945 One of the biggest things that faces our industry right now is like cable theft or just general wear and tear and the damage and the cable and the station doesn't work. 36 00:03:28,945 --> 00:03:32,427 So it's really not useful for multifamily property. 37 00:03:32,427 --> 00:03:37,329 If you put in a traditional system and then every one to three years, you're going to be down for four weeks. 38 00:03:37,329 --> 00:03:40,675 because that cable was broken or someone stole it. 39 00:03:40,736 --> 00:03:44,753 So rather than doing that, we went with an outlet where there's nothing to really steal or break. 40 00:03:44,753 --> 00:03:48,129 It's just an outlet that hangs out on the wall and it's ready to be used whenever you need it. 41 00:03:49,241 --> 00:03:56,186 Yeah, and I think there's a lot of really clean and just really elegant ways of how your team goes about this. 42 00:03:56,186 --> 00:04:04,501 in some ways, what's really interesting, I think for some of our listeners here in North America is obviously there's a lot more behind the outlet and what your team does, but 43 00:04:04,501 --> 00:04:13,808 it's much more similar to what you see actually in Europe, where it's kind of a B, Y, O, C, bring home charger sort of thing that really does can help with that ongoing 44 00:04:13,808 --> 00:04:18,291 maintenance and preventative for vandalism and stuff like that. 45 00:04:18,291 --> 00:04:19,031 But 46 00:04:19,129 --> 00:04:22,820 Yeah, I think you kind of did just talk about some of that's really fascinating. 47 00:04:22,820 --> 00:04:27,061 think that's underappreciated and that's kind of what that energy management side of it. 48 00:04:27,182 --> 00:04:32,643 And I think, I know there's a few different areas we wanted to talk about that today, but let's, let's kind of just kick it off. 49 00:04:33,084 --> 00:04:37,945 maybe share an example that you have, or some of the things that you think that Pano is doing around that. 50 00:04:37,945 --> 00:04:38,985 That's really cool. 51 00:04:38,985 --> 00:04:44,417 And that could be a great starting point for the listeners and then us to kind of get into this deeper conversation. 52 00:04:44,868 --> 00:04:55,360 Yeah, I think one of the bigger things that Pando specifically is doing around energy management is we are actively driving forward into the vehicle to grid space. 53 00:04:55,521 --> 00:04:59,401 We recently did a calculation for the city of Los Angeles. 54 00:05:00,242 --> 00:05:06,763 They have enough EVs on the car on the road today that equates to about two gigawatts of energy. 55 00:05:06,763 --> 00:05:15,171 Now, if you were to break that out, that's a couple of nuclear power plants of power generation that's just hanging out and batteries driving around on the road. 56 00:05:15,171 --> 00:05:28,342 And when you factor in the idea that most vehicles are parked for 90 % of their life, you can see that there's a really big opportunity here to reinvent the grid in a way by using 57 00:05:28,342 --> 00:05:34,177 batteries as sort of a de facto backup storage and grid stabilizing force. 58 00:05:34,837 --> 00:05:37,399 There's going to be a lot of things that need to happen there, right? 59 00:05:37,399 --> 00:05:46,504 Like your car might have a V2G capable charger at home, or you might have one at your apartment, or you might have one at work. 60 00:05:46,504 --> 00:05:51,266 But the idea that you have one at all three is highly unlikely. 61 00:05:51,286 --> 00:05:53,808 And so we have to still bridge that gap. 62 00:05:53,808 --> 00:06:02,312 But when you start to think about the fact that even in Los Angeles, like that's nowhere near 100 % EV charge, EV coverage. 63 00:06:02,312 --> 00:06:03,023 We're like... 64 00:06:03,023 --> 00:06:11,148 did a very quick chat GPT search and it says just in LA County, it's at 7.3 % penetration for electric vehicles. 65 00:06:12,309 --> 00:06:13,229 yeah. 66 00:06:14,451 --> 00:06:15,691 Right, right, right. 67 00:06:15,793 --> 00:06:19,877 And we're talking about two nuclear power plants of energy. 68 00:06:19,898 --> 00:06:27,846 So you can see as we start to like go up and up and up, that's a lot of energy that you can play around with. 69 00:06:27,846 --> 00:06:36,806 And the fact, the reality is a lot of people at first were hesitant about V2G because, you know, range anxiety was a thing. 70 00:06:36,806 --> 00:06:40,326 It's still kind of there, but it's really rapidly going away. 71 00:06:40,326 --> 00:06:49,966 And I think once it's fully gone, you'll have no issue giving 5 % of your battery out, you know, in the time of, you know, high energy prices or maybe the potential rolling 72 00:06:49,966 --> 00:06:50,872 blackout. 73 00:06:50,872 --> 00:06:54,974 if it does stabilize the grid or if it does lower your energy costs. 74 00:06:54,974 --> 00:06:59,587 Or even better, the utility is going to pay you for that energy, you're making money. 75 00:06:59,587 --> 00:07:05,170 So it's one of those things where I think a lot of people are going to start to really embrace this idea. 76 00:07:05,311 --> 00:07:15,416 And we're really at the very beginning stages of looking at a completely new world that we're walking into because of electric vehicles. 77 00:07:16,485 --> 00:07:16,665 Yeah. 78 00:07:16,665 --> 00:07:18,986 And I think you had, there's a couple of things there. 79 00:07:18,986 --> 00:07:20,207 I can want to focus on that. 80 00:07:20,207 --> 00:07:21,938 You called out that you're right. 81 00:07:21,938 --> 00:07:27,782 When people first, I think there's like kind of a lot of the Evie and charging nerds like us like, VDG, this sounds great. 82 00:07:27,782 --> 00:07:30,123 And then how is position maybe to the wider public? 83 00:07:30,123 --> 00:07:34,906 Like, the, the power grid is just going to pull power from your battery at any time. 84 00:07:34,906 --> 00:07:36,426 People are like, wait, what? 85 00:07:36,627 --> 00:07:41,049 And now it's kind of become clear just with these pilots that obviously it's more of an opt in thing. 86 00:07:41,049 --> 00:07:44,667 And when you start talking about that scale, it is wild that 87 00:07:44,667 --> 00:07:50,531 it's only five to like 10 % could make actually a big difference with just how many EVs we're talking about. 88 00:07:50,672 --> 00:07:55,256 And once again, if you're getting paid to do it, it becomes one of these things like, yeah, why wouldn't I do that? 89 00:07:55,256 --> 00:08:04,404 And as charging becomes more prevalent at like people's homes and at work locations, it really makes it like almost a why wouldn't you sort of thing. 90 00:08:04,404 --> 00:08:13,637 I think it, I still think VDG is a little on the early side for a lot of this stuff, but it's like, and some of that it's a lot of it's just the actual infrastructure. 91 00:08:13,637 --> 00:08:16,249 There's not like some, we don't have to solve fusion. 92 00:08:16,249 --> 00:08:20,421 It's a very clear hardware way to get there. 93 00:08:20,421 --> 00:08:21,992 We just have to start implementing it. 94 00:08:21,992 --> 00:08:23,933 So I think it is on the horizon. 95 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:32,978 There's a lot of cool things that this can unlock and especially what Panda is kind of helping to make this more, these charging locations more prevalent and making this kind of 96 00:08:33,138 --> 00:08:41,803 back and forth and that VDG, the VDG fantasy, more reality and more practical for everyone. 97 00:08:41,894 --> 00:08:42,474 Definitely. 98 00:08:42,474 --> 00:08:46,414 think what's going to happen first isn't V2G really. 99 00:08:46,414 --> 00:08:52,914 It's actually going to be the V2H and that's going to look different for single family homes versus multifamily homes. 100 00:08:53,014 --> 00:09:05,434 But you can imagine, you know, when you start to hit seven, eight, nine, 10 % EV market penetration in a multifamily facility specifically, we're talking about enough energy that 101 00:09:05,434 --> 00:09:10,534 you could pull about 10%, 20%, 30%, 40 % of those batteries. 102 00:09:10,534 --> 00:09:11,847 And I know when you start getting up into that number, 103 00:09:11,847 --> 00:09:22,187 sounds scary but from Pando's perspective look if I were to dump 40 % of your battery back into the into the building at you know 6-7 p.m. 104 00:09:22,187 --> 00:09:32,607 when the energy prices are really high I'm gonna cut your actual cost of electricity you know down by half or more 105 00:09:33,053 --> 00:09:34,953 And they're not even paying you to do that, right? 106 00:09:34,953 --> 00:09:37,973 You're just gonna do it because you wanna lower your energy costs in general. 107 00:09:39,473 --> 00:09:43,133 It's not gonna take me that much time to fill your battery back up, right? 108 00:09:43,133 --> 00:09:46,873 Like I can get a battery from 20 to 80 % in four hours. 109 00:09:46,873 --> 00:09:56,353 So if I dumped all that energy down there, you know, at the beginning of the session, I've got, you know, a data that shows most people come home and park for 12 to 15 hours. 110 00:09:56,453 --> 00:10:02,513 So if you push that energy in from seven to like 10 p.m., so the three hour window, 111 00:10:02,657 --> 00:10:12,494 me you know almost nine to ten hours on the low end of time for me to fill your battery back up which I can do easily and I think that's what's going to start that's the what's 112 00:10:12,494 --> 00:10:22,350 going to start that conversation rolling along it's not really the vehicle to grid so much just yet there's a lot of additional pieces that need to be involved there but 113 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:32,267 specifically the chargers and the vehicles and the grid all need to be talking to each other because there's that use case of well I opted in but I forgot to charge today and I 114 00:10:32,267 --> 00:10:32,640 actually 115 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:43,740 only at 20 % and if you take 10 % from me, I'm now you know, now I'm like really Oh shoot, like this is not good So they all need to be talking to each other so that they say, okay 116 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:51,918 Well, don't take any from that car because it's only at 20 % But this car is at 100 % we can definitely take you know, 10 % there and that guy's not gonna notice or care 117 00:10:51,918 --> 00:10:56,924 And so it's one of those things where that's probably, you're right, that's probably about a decade away. 118 00:10:57,065 --> 00:11:01,231 But on the lower end, like vehicle to home, that's here now. 119 00:11:01,231 --> 00:11:07,859 And it's really just about getting things to scale and getting things to pencil out from a cost perspective. 120 00:11:09,115 --> 00:11:09,415 Yeah. 121 00:11:09,415 --> 00:11:13,895 And I think what is really interesting is just, uh, and yeah, I completely agree with you. 122 00:11:13,895 --> 00:11:14,895 The vehicle to home. 123 00:11:14,895 --> 00:11:20,015 mean, obviously I think like people kind of heard of like the Tesla power walls and a lot of these home battery backup systems. 124 00:11:20,015 --> 00:11:25,115 And we're starting to kind of see that still grow, but there, there is still a decent price Delta. 125 00:11:25,115 --> 00:11:34,095 So depending where you live in the country, maybe it's not a hundred percent, uh, cost effective yet, or traditionally you've just needed so many batteries that just like, okay, 126 00:11:34,095 --> 00:11:35,135 that's such a big hurdle. 127 00:11:35,135 --> 00:11:38,063 now that you kind of get an EV involved. 128 00:11:38,063 --> 00:11:43,567 you can kind of get to that price delta where especially on like a home basis, it really makes a lot of sense. 129 00:11:43,587 --> 00:11:50,012 And I think what was kind of interesting before this was we were kind of talking about taking that up a step and then you go to like the multifamily. 130 00:11:50,012 --> 00:11:56,017 And so I think it'd be really interesting to of discuss that a little bit about like getting to these kind of larger commercial scale projects and how you can actually 131 00:11:56,017 --> 00:12:04,033 leverage whether it be plugged in electric vehicles or just like an actual commercial battery at the site. 132 00:12:04,389 --> 00:12:16,369 Yeah, I I've said this a lot in the recent past about the opportunity that exists for multifamily property owners today is pretty massive if they make their bets in the right 133 00:12:16,369 --> 00:12:17,409 places. 134 00:12:18,189 --> 00:12:22,389 A lot of multifamily properties are getting, I mean, they're getting bigger and bigger and bigger. 135 00:12:22,409 --> 00:12:27,769 A lot of the properties that the newer bids that we're working on are like 900, a thousand unit properties. 136 00:12:27,769 --> 00:12:29,589 Like that's a small town. 137 00:12:29,696 --> 00:12:32,609 of people moving in a single location. 138 00:12:32,609 --> 00:12:37,073 So that's a lot of energy just being consumed in one location. 139 00:12:37,222 --> 00:12:42,082 And when you're looking at something like that, the V to G stuff's really interesting. 140 00:12:42,082 --> 00:12:47,342 What's even more interesting to me is the fact that, you know, because you're a property owner, you own that land. 141 00:12:47,402 --> 00:12:51,142 You can put solar on the roof, a battery in the garage. 142 00:12:51,242 --> 00:12:54,642 Um, and then you can really start to do a lot of very interesting things. 143 00:12:54,642 --> 00:12:55,742 Even if you just put the battery, right? 144 00:12:55,742 --> 00:12:57,122 You don't have the solar. 145 00:12:57,122 --> 00:13:04,682 I can buy energy from the grid when it's cheap during the middle of the day, when it's not being used very much and the prices are lower. 146 00:13:04,682 --> 00:13:06,042 So it's off peak. 147 00:13:06,042 --> 00:13:07,336 Fill up my battery. 148 00:13:07,336 --> 00:13:10,337 and then turn around and then dump that power. 149 00:13:10,337 --> 00:13:14,538 at night when it's on peak and I've saved 20 cents a kilowatt hour. 150 00:13:14,538 --> 00:13:16,140 That's like the lowest end. 151 00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:20,642 And you can do that every single night, night after night, endlessly. 152 00:13:20,842 --> 00:13:33,878 And because of that, you could, in a sense, if you just did this the smart way, I'm buying up the energy when it's cheap and I'm selling it back to my consumers for their energy 153 00:13:33,878 --> 00:13:35,189 rates that they're already used to paying. 154 00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:36,599 So they're not gonna notice a difference. 155 00:13:36,599 --> 00:13:40,311 Every tenant in that building is like, well, this is the rate that I'm paying anyway. 156 00:13:40,371 --> 00:13:44,214 But I'm making 20 cents a kilowatt hour because I've done that. 157 00:13:44,214 --> 00:13:50,939 And if I'm doing that over and over and over again, every single night, you can start to see that money just starts piling up. 158 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:57,844 And that's really like at the core of what I've been preaching to property owners today is like, look. 159 00:13:58,455 --> 00:13:59,966 It's not quite there yet. 160 00:13:59,966 --> 00:14:03,247 The battery costs need to come down just a little bit. 161 00:14:03,688 --> 00:14:12,111 Unless you're in like a certain location, there are some like government grants that you can get still to do this and you can do it fairly affordably. 162 00:14:12,111 --> 00:14:19,885 But I think as we start to progress into this new future of battery tech, we are going to see a lot more property owners take advantage of this. 163 00:14:19,885 --> 00:14:20,535 And why not? 164 00:14:20,535 --> 00:14:22,906 Like you can, you can do a lot of things. 165 00:14:22,906 --> 00:14:28,342 You can either make a ton of money or you can entice your residents to live there longer because you're going to offer them a rate. 166 00:14:28,342 --> 00:14:32,335 that's cheaper than the utility rate that they're used to pay. 167 00:14:32,335 --> 00:14:38,090 So I could just pass those savings on to my tenants if I wanted to because I'm going to be a noble landlord. 168 00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:39,220 I'm not here to just make money. 169 00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:41,772 So I'm going to help you guys out, cut the energy costs. 170 00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:43,643 There's a lot of things that you could do. 171 00:14:44,264 --> 00:14:56,904 so I think property owners, especially large property owners like multifamily housing have a tremendous opportunity in front of them to really reshape how our grid and utility 172 00:14:56,904 --> 00:14:57,735 system works. 173 00:14:57,735 --> 00:14:58,215 And I think it's 174 00:14:58,215 --> 00:15:03,135 kind of well overdue out here in Northern California. 175 00:15:03,155 --> 00:15:10,015 PG &E is, I don't mean to bad mouth PG &E, they have a lot of stuff that they have to work through. 176 00:15:10,015 --> 00:15:15,215 get the challenges that they face, but this is only a net positive for them. 177 00:15:15,315 --> 00:15:24,395 It will help reduce a lot of the issues that they are facing and that they can focus on cleaning up some of the challenges that they've had specifically around power generation 178 00:15:24,395 --> 00:15:26,835 or down power line and all that. 179 00:15:27,171 --> 00:15:28,908 So this can actually really help. 180 00:15:31,193 --> 00:15:39,646 Yeah, you know, one of the things we actually talk about, especially around EV charging is demand charges and kind of those other things that people might not be aware of when you 181 00:15:39,646 --> 00:15:40,686 get to the commercial scale. 182 00:15:40,686 --> 00:15:48,059 Is that something that can kind of come into those conversations to help pencil it out for the kind of battery backup system? 183 00:15:48,059 --> 00:15:55,171 Or is it just these entities when they're being built, it's such a much more kind of planned out that you don't run into that as much. 184 00:15:55,895 --> 00:15:59,625 No, it's definitely like it's one of those things that you can talk about now. 185 00:15:59,625 --> 00:16:08,624 I think the issue that we're currently facing is all these tariffs that has caused such a chaotic market that that's probably what's going to prevent it for the foreseeable future 186 00:16:08,624 --> 00:16:13,697 until they go away or until there's some consistency that exists. 187 00:16:14,338 --> 00:16:24,545 So that's actually what's holding it back right now is that, you they don't know what their building costs are going to be because, hey, the steel that I import or 188 00:16:24,645 --> 00:16:35,482 concrete that I need or lumber, all that stuff is gonna cost extra or it's just different and now I need to redo an entire calculation and that might blow up my budget. 189 00:16:35,482 --> 00:16:39,408 And so it's one of those things where we're probably gonna see a pullback. 190 00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:46,610 The thing is, is like a lot of the properties that already exist, the retrofits could take advantage of this. 191 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:50,930 And it will take a few people to kind of get over the fear. 192 00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:55,490 There's always the fear of, what happens if there's, you know, a thermal runaway? 193 00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:56,550 You know, I think testing. 194 00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:59,761 to ask you maybe some of the pushback or things you're getting. 195 00:16:59,761 --> 00:17:03,573 Obviously price is probably the main one, but just other things you might be hearing. 196 00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:07,853 Price is definitely number one, but then number two is safety. 197 00:17:07,853 --> 00:17:11,636 There is that fear of, you I don't want to burn my property down. 198 00:17:11,636 --> 00:17:12,948 I understand that completely. 199 00:17:12,948 --> 00:17:17,021 Tesla definitely solved, I think, this problem with their megapacks. 200 00:17:17,309 --> 00:17:24,112 And then there's other companies too that make like shipping containers that are have full fire suppression systems within them. 201 00:17:24,112 --> 00:17:31,956 So, you know, there's the risk there is so minimal, it's just going to take people some time to get some comfort around it. 202 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:39,960 And then it's more just the idea itself is a little bit beyond sort of what they're used to what's normal, right? 203 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,522 You're talking to a bunch of people who are mostly focused on vacancy rates, like that's what they look at. 204 00:17:45,522 --> 00:17:46,983 Vacancy rates, so that's like, okay, 205 00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:50,903 well, I don't care so much about the energy in the building and all that stuff. 206 00:17:50,903 --> 00:17:55,383 I just want to make sure that that works so that I don't lose any tenants. 207 00:17:55,503 --> 00:18:03,663 And when you have such a hyper focus on one thing, when you bring an idea like this, sometimes it just flies right past them because they just don't have the time to think it 208 00:18:03,663 --> 00:18:04,063 over. 209 00:18:04,063 --> 00:18:06,663 They're like, yeah, that's not really my concern right this moment. 210 00:18:06,883 --> 00:18:14,423 But I do think that we are starting to see a few of the larger companies toy around with these ideas. 211 00:18:14,423 --> 00:18:16,903 I'm seeing more and more 212 00:18:16,913 --> 00:18:22,546 multifamily properties looking at solar as a way to sort of offset their energy costs. 213 00:18:22,546 --> 00:18:30,410 I think you're gonna see some more start to be like, maybe we should put in a few batteries, maybe not huge ones, let's do some small deployments first. 214 00:18:30,410 --> 00:18:40,466 Yeah, and then I think it's gonna slowly sort of edge up to that, yeah, let's just put a commercial grade battery in the garage, we'll just lose one parking space, dump in a huge 215 00:18:40,466 --> 00:18:42,997 battery right there and be done with it. 216 00:18:44,227 --> 00:18:44,677 Interesting. 217 00:18:44,677 --> 00:18:54,515 And I guess for those listening, how, let's say you're a property owner or a commercial kind of tenant and how does one kind of reach out to Panda and what does that kind of look 218 00:18:54,515 --> 00:18:56,617 like in that process and what elements of it? 219 00:18:56,617 --> 00:18:59,519 Do you, does your team kind of work with and help them with. 220 00:18:59,789 --> 00:19:02,072 Yeah, getting a hold of Pando is pretty easy. 221 00:19:02,072 --> 00:19:04,314 Just go to our website, pandoelectric.com. 222 00:19:04,314 --> 00:19:10,253 There's a phone number on there that you can call us directly or you can fill out the form if you're not a phone person. 223 00:19:10,253 --> 00:19:18,321 I know it's always a big split between, know, it's like Boomers and Gen X always get on the phone and then Millennials and Gen Z are always filling out the form. 224 00:19:19,043 --> 00:19:22,046 But we pretty much do everything from start to finish. 225 00:19:22,607 --> 00:19:30,576 We try to take all of this off your plate because we know you, again, you have other things you want to worry about and EV charging is probably way, way, way down on the 226 00:19:30,576 --> 00:19:31,749 bottom of your list. 227 00:19:31,749 --> 00:19:39,529 That's also the reason why we designed the product the way that we did, is to reduce the amount of time you're spending thinking about EV charging. 228 00:19:39,529 --> 00:19:44,089 So we just integrated tap and charge technology into our outlets. 229 00:19:44,089 --> 00:19:50,479 That eliminates a really big failure point, to be perfectly honest with our Gen 1 model. 230 00:19:50,479 --> 00:20:00,074 which was it required our EV drivers to have internet connectivity or cellular connectivity to scan the QR code to initiate a charge session. 231 00:20:00,074 --> 00:20:04,935 Well, in some of our locations, you're in an underground parking garage, you have great service. 232 00:20:04,956 --> 00:20:09,057 And trying to start a charge session when you don't have internet connectivity is impossible. 233 00:20:09,098 --> 00:20:16,071 So by integrating this, now you just tap your phone with Apple Pay or Google Pay, tap it against the charger, that starts the charge session. 234 00:20:16,071 --> 00:20:18,462 So it's eliminating that failure point. 235 00:20:18,662 --> 00:20:20,323 So really we're... 236 00:20:20,423 --> 00:20:29,324 constantly on the lookout for things to reduce the friction for everybody in this process, not just the property owners, but the EV drivers as well. 237 00:20:30,011 --> 00:20:32,782 And why does the tap and charge functionality to work? 238 00:20:32,782 --> 00:20:40,906 Is it essentially the Apple pay or Google pay has the track of the, the cost? 239 00:20:40,906 --> 00:20:44,227 Cause I am, I am hearing this from a couple other charging providers as well. 240 00:20:44,227 --> 00:20:45,568 Cause completely agree with you. 241 00:20:45,568 --> 00:20:47,469 This has just been an issue in general. 242 00:20:47,469 --> 00:20:49,830 I even had a pretty bad experience recently. 243 00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:52,441 Fortunately, I didn't need to charge, but I was trying to test it. 244 00:20:52,441 --> 00:20:53,962 And this to clarify was not Pando. 245 00:20:53,962 --> 00:20:57,007 This was a, pretty well documented, 246 00:20:58,245 --> 00:21:02,098 Charging provider I have issues with, but I'll leave it at that. 247 00:21:02,238 --> 00:21:10,445 And unfortunately, unfortunately my phone had the app on it, but I have a setting. 248 00:21:10,445 --> 00:21:13,087 like if I don't use an app for a while, it just deletes it. 249 00:21:13,148 --> 00:21:16,551 So here I'm at this charger, the tap and pay doesn't work. 250 00:21:16,551 --> 00:21:19,473 None of the credit card reader functionality works. 251 00:21:19,673 --> 00:21:21,925 And then where I'm at has like no cell service. 252 00:21:21,925 --> 00:21:23,677 So I try to download the app and I can do it. 253 00:21:23,677 --> 00:21:26,358 I mean, it sets you up to really be, and this, 254 00:21:26,523 --> 00:21:27,843 It's not like it was in a parking garage. 255 00:21:27,843 --> 00:21:33,223 This is just in a really rural remote area where in a lot of ways it's even more critical. 256 00:21:33,663 --> 00:21:37,863 But yeah, I guess I'm kind of going down a tangent there, but I'm kind of curious. 257 00:21:37,863 --> 00:21:41,903 Is it essentially Apple Pay and Google Pay store a record of the transaction? 258 00:21:41,903 --> 00:21:52,323 And then once it connects to the internet again, it makes the transaction of the charge session go through or what is kind of allowing tap and pay to be much more dynamic in that 259 00:21:52,323 --> 00:21:53,163 regard? 260 00:21:53,165 --> 00:21:55,589 Yeah, so that's actually an excellent question. 261 00:21:55,589 --> 00:21:58,103 It's a, in a weird way, we're coming like full circle. 262 00:21:58,103 --> 00:22:05,253 I don't know if you remember this, but about 10 years ago, NFC cards were typically the thing and that, and people were getting annoyed by that. 263 00:22:05,253 --> 00:22:14,253 because every single company issued you a little plastic NFC card and you'd use that to tap that against the charger and that would unlock it. 264 00:22:14,253 --> 00:22:19,753 And people are like, well, not like 10 cards in my car driving around using different charging stations, it was a pain. 265 00:22:19,753 --> 00:22:23,913 And that's when everybody shifted over to the apps and that created a new problem. 266 00:22:23,913 --> 00:22:27,273 So what we ended up doing was merging these two things together. 267 00:22:27,273 --> 00:22:31,573 So what you would end up doing the first time is you would scan the QR code, download the app. 268 00:22:31,822 --> 00:22:38,765 And then you basically can take a virtual NFC card and put it on your phone and your wallet. 269 00:22:38,825 --> 00:22:42,147 And then you just come up to the charger and tap it against the charger. 270 00:22:42,147 --> 00:22:43,807 That unlocks the session. 271 00:22:43,947 --> 00:22:50,350 We know that the charger that you've tapped, you have access to because of the card ID that has been issued. 272 00:22:50,350 --> 00:22:52,991 So we know who is allowed to use that charger. 273 00:22:52,991 --> 00:23:01,975 When you access that charger, your phone's not actually doing anything but passing some very simple data to the charging station, which is the source of truth. 274 00:23:01,975 --> 00:23:07,179 So the charging station knows that okay, this user is allowed to use me. 275 00:23:07,179 --> 00:23:17,766 I'll unlock the device I'll start accruing charges on that user's account and then it'll be billing them in the back end So it's it has nothing to do with the user's phone at all 276 00:23:17,766 --> 00:23:22,749 It's all on our system and our system is a completely localized system. 277 00:23:22,749 --> 00:23:31,525 So it's actually, you know on site There's only one charger that needs a signal out and then the rest will all share that same signal if for whatever reason that signal fails the 278 00:23:31,525 --> 00:23:34,277 next best one picks it up and sends it out. 279 00:23:34,277 --> 00:23:42,863 Like in total, we're talking about in a total month about five minutes of uptime is actually needed to send the data back and forth. 280 00:23:42,863 --> 00:23:48,226 So it's not really like a pressing issue for these things to be connected all the time. 281 00:23:48,226 --> 00:23:54,510 And so when we recognize that it was like, okay, well then all we need to do is allow people to unlock the charger. 282 00:23:54,530 --> 00:23:59,334 The chargers will keep the knowledge themselves until they can send it back out because it's really not that much data. 283 00:23:59,334 --> 00:24:00,294 It's just a bunch of numbers. 284 00:24:00,294 --> 00:24:01,234 That's it. 285 00:24:01,415 --> 00:24:03,083 And that's how that's working. 286 00:24:04,003 --> 00:24:04,513 Interesting. 287 00:24:04,513 --> 00:24:18,691 So your Pando site still does need an internet connection, but should something happen or even if it's kind of not the strongest connection, it really only needs to have that 288 00:24:18,691 --> 00:24:21,613 happen a few times a month to the user. 289 00:24:21,613 --> 00:24:27,406 They really never notice until maybe there's a delay in the charge or something maybe on their card. 290 00:24:27,406 --> 00:24:32,259 But other than that, the main thing is actually just making sure the charge goes through and happens. 291 00:24:32,633 --> 00:24:33,986 Yeah, that's really all you need. 292 00:24:33,986 --> 00:24:36,531 again, it's like just a string of numbers. 293 00:24:36,531 --> 00:24:38,946 It's really such, it's such data. 294 00:24:38,946 --> 00:24:40,789 It's not hard to get it out. 295 00:24:41,199 --> 00:24:42,059 Yeah. 296 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,441 Well, that one is great to hear. 297 00:24:44,441 --> 00:24:54,888 And I know with kind of the tap and charge functionality, is there, if you're listening to this, is there something maybe the listeners should be kind of aware of and like what this 298 00:24:54,888 --> 00:25:03,864 is unlocking other than just ease of use, but kind of making it much more functional and kind of creating a frictionless experience. 299 00:25:03,864 --> 00:25:11,128 there, are there any other kind of, I guess advantages to the end user with this addition other than just 300 00:25:11,128 --> 00:25:12,855 you tap and it works. 301 00:25:13,221 --> 00:25:16,221 I think that is the main thing, right? 302 00:25:17,001 --> 00:25:24,821 It's just trying to create a, we want an experience that is A, better than a gas station, right? 303 00:25:24,821 --> 00:25:31,581 So it's something that, know, gas stations figured this out, you know, put the credit card in, now I don't have to go in and talk to the clerk and tell them how much gas I want and 304 00:25:31,581 --> 00:25:32,841 all that other stuff. 305 00:25:32,995 --> 00:25:36,707 I just swipe my cards, fill it up, and it charges me. 306 00:25:36,707 --> 00:25:39,409 That's kind of the same thing we're trying to get to here. 307 00:25:39,409 --> 00:25:42,481 We recognize also that people have their phones with them all the time. 308 00:25:42,481 --> 00:25:44,692 So just tap your phone against the charger. 309 00:25:44,692 --> 00:25:45,837 It'll unlock. 310 00:25:45,837 --> 00:25:48,178 and you can walk off and do whatever you need to. 311 00:25:48,858 --> 00:25:56,622 The whole idea in general around Pando is we want you to kind of forget about EV charging at all. 312 00:25:56,622 --> 00:26:05,936 I want you to show up to your building and just have this mindless activity for a few seconds where you plug in each end, you tap the thing and you walk off and you're really 313 00:26:05,936 --> 00:26:07,987 not actively thinking about it. 314 00:26:07,987 --> 00:26:15,911 And there was actually someone who made a really great point about this that I'll steal, which is someone asked them with their level two 315 00:26:15,911 --> 00:26:19,551 at home, like, well, how long does it take you to fill up your, you know, fill up your car? 316 00:26:19,551 --> 00:26:22,433 And they said, I don't know, about five seconds. 317 00:26:22,433 --> 00:26:24,234 I just plug it in and I walk off. 318 00:26:24,234 --> 00:26:26,635 And then when I want to use it again, it's full, right? 319 00:26:26,635 --> 00:26:29,426 Like that's the actuality of the time spec. 320 00:26:29,426 --> 00:26:31,534 It has nothing to do with how long it's sitting there. 321 00:26:31,534 --> 00:26:35,358 The car is going to sit in your garage or in its parking space for a very long time. 322 00:26:35,398 --> 00:26:39,779 So really what you're trying to do is just get somebody to where they actually want to be faster. 323 00:26:39,779 --> 00:26:42,620 And so this is one of those methods that we're trying to do that. 324 00:26:43,801 --> 00:26:50,999 Now I realize this may be a roadmap thing, but this is also another technology we get a lot of questions asked about is like auto charge and plug-in charge. 325 00:26:50,999 --> 00:27:01,250 Is that something that your team can support or is it because that there is an outlet kind of in between that it makes it kind of hard to have that communication level with the 326 00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:02,331 actual EV? 327 00:27:02,341 --> 00:27:05,161 It does make it hard, but not impossible. 328 00:27:05,161 --> 00:27:08,161 This is one of the things I think I bring up a lot. 329 00:27:08,161 --> 00:27:10,021 It's like, these are all just engineering problems. 330 00:27:10,021 --> 00:27:12,221 They're not like impossible. 331 00:27:12,221 --> 00:27:15,161 It's like, you know, we just have to solve for it, which we have. 332 00:27:15,241 --> 00:27:25,941 You know, our chargers are working with the OEMs to get API access to the cars themselves so that our chargers in the car can actually just sit there when they're, you know, two 333 00:27:25,941 --> 00:27:27,581 feet away from each other and talk. 334 00:27:27,581 --> 00:27:29,789 That's how we're able to overcome that. 335 00:27:30,382 --> 00:27:39,199 So we're just at that point where it's, and again, it's, we're at that early stage where it's one of those things that's being talked about and it sounds great and everybody wants 336 00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:39,869 it. 337 00:27:39,869 --> 00:27:44,212 It's just, it's not ready yet and it's just a little bit of time. 338 00:27:44,469 --> 00:27:44,819 yeah. 339 00:27:44,819 --> 00:27:48,131 And, and I mean, I don't want to sound like we're talking. 340 00:27:48,131 --> 00:27:52,894 mean, the fact that reliable tap and charge, like I said, that is such a huge step forward. 341 00:27:52,894 --> 00:27:56,497 And it's unfortunate that that hasn't become more common in the industry. 342 00:27:56,497 --> 00:27:59,079 So, really kudos to you guys. 343 00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:06,294 And I realized with the plugin charge thing, you have to realize, I think a lot of people get kind of hung up and they think it's on the charger side, but so much of it too is 344 00:28:06,294 --> 00:28:11,567 actually on the automaker and the OEM and even within that specific, models. 345 00:28:11,821 --> 00:28:15,032 And so, I mean, I, I agree with it. 346 00:28:15,032 --> 00:28:20,223 Even just getting to a better than gas station tap and charge thing is going to be huge and having that functionality is great. 347 00:28:20,223 --> 00:28:31,206 But when we're kind of looking at where the product is now and just kind of Pando as a company, I know we were actually supposed to meet at the EV charging summit and expo and 348 00:28:31,206 --> 00:28:34,407 just, calendars kind of kept moving there, but I'm curious. 349 00:28:34,407 --> 00:28:41,103 we've had other people on from the EV charging summit already, and I would just love to hear maybe some of the trends or other things coming out of that. 350 00:28:41,103 --> 00:28:45,683 maybe even going in and then coming out of the event that really stood out to you. 351 00:28:46,906 --> 00:28:49,948 I think, man, that's a great question. 352 00:28:49,948 --> 00:29:01,137 One of the things that really caught my eye was we're going back around, this is more of a negative take, so I apologize to any listeners here, but we're going back and creating 353 00:29:01,137 --> 00:29:04,579 overly complicated systems that don't need to be that way. 354 00:29:04,946 --> 00:29:14,648 I'm not gonna call out who was doing this, I mean, there was a cabinet there that was like 10 feet tall and had all these, it was like a multi-charger, and I'm like, there's no 355 00:29:14,648 --> 00:29:15,988 point to this. 356 00:29:16,301 --> 00:29:17,854 You can just install one in every space. 357 00:29:17,854 --> 00:29:23,583 You don't need this like monstrosity that you're going to install somewhere and have all these multiple cables hanging off of it. 358 00:29:23,629 --> 00:29:25,430 It just doesn't make a lot of sense. 359 00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:33,704 And I saw like a few other things there that were just like, they're going back into like this complex system that doesn't need to exist, right? 360 00:29:33,704 --> 00:29:34,494 It should be simple. 361 00:29:34,494 --> 00:29:37,475 Like Europe solved this pretty easily. 362 00:29:37,816 --> 00:29:40,517 Just type two chargers work really well. 363 00:29:40,517 --> 00:29:46,179 They require the user to do a minimal amount of effort of plugging in your own cable. 364 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,809 As long as it locks to each end. 365 00:29:48,809 --> 00:29:52,923 I don't know too many people who are willing to cut an active cable like that. 366 00:29:52,923 --> 00:29:53,763 That would be 367 00:29:53,763 --> 00:29:57,506 you know, in that sentence, so you're pretty safe in that scenario. 368 00:29:57,506 --> 00:29:59,167 Nobody's gonna steal that thing. 369 00:29:59,848 --> 00:30:05,932 And then on top of that, you just put in, you know, strategically placed DC fast chargers and you basically solve the problem. 370 00:30:06,733 --> 00:30:13,077 There are some things that are being worked on that I was really happy to see, especially from some of the larger players. 371 00:30:13,397 --> 00:30:15,648 looking at full building energy management. 372 00:30:15,648 --> 00:30:19,280 This is something that Ever Charge worked on way back. 373 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,997 And again, it really fell to the properties not being ready. 374 00:30:23,997 --> 00:30:31,245 I think we're getting into a space of them being ready and that full building energy management stuff is really, really impressive. 375 00:30:32,086 --> 00:30:41,850 I will call out that the savings that you get from the full building energy management system with a traditional solution are similar to the savings you get from a Pando 376 00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:42,871 solution. 377 00:30:42,944 --> 00:30:48,970 So it's one of those things where we've solved the same problem of cost through simplicity, not through complexity. 378 00:30:48,970 --> 00:31:00,560 The thing that I like about the full building energy system is that it unlocks a lot more potential for adding EV chargers and doing just more intelligent things with the building 379 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,181 power in general, because 380 00:31:02,425 --> 00:31:12,990 The thing that is weird about our electric code is that you have to account for all of the electrical appliances all the time. 381 00:31:12,990 --> 00:31:18,072 So it basically assumes that everything is on all the time and we know that that's not true. 382 00:31:18,312 --> 00:31:31,979 And now that we have systems that are able to tell when things are not being used, you can move that power around in all sorts of fun ways, not just for EV charging, but like HVAC 383 00:31:31,979 --> 00:31:32,379 systems. 384 00:31:32,379 --> 00:31:42,528 or the you know whatever right so I really think that that is something that a lot of the EV charging companies especially the ones that are focusing on multifamily should really 385 00:31:42,528 --> 00:31:46,912 drive hard into because it's a huge huge huge potential. 386 00:31:48,249 --> 00:31:57,026 Yeah, I think that's an interesting call out and it's kind of funny to say that because my own takeaway from the V Charging Summit was kind of similar. 387 00:31:57,419 --> 00:31:59,989 I don't know if you were able to attend many of the workshops. 388 00:31:59,989 --> 00:32:01,850 found it really fast. 389 00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:08,245 Sometimes the presentations at the workshops, they were fun and they were good, but it's like, as someone who's kind been in this industry for while, there's nothing new. 390 00:32:08,245 --> 00:32:15,161 To me, what was really fascinating was hearing the questions being asked by these people who are in the industry or who are curious about them. 391 00:32:15,161 --> 00:32:17,615 And a lot of the questions were kind of the same questions that 392 00:32:17,615 --> 00:32:25,211 I've heard for like the last decade and there's nothing wrong with that because it's clear like there's just more and more people coming into the space that are now like ready to do 393 00:32:25,211 --> 00:32:25,822 it. 394 00:32:25,822 --> 00:32:35,760 But it also just reminded me that there's any it kind of goes to your simplicity thing too that there's just so many things that are kind of being taken too far instead of just 395 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:46,169 being able to have the right messaging and approach people with what the questions are and kind of overcome some of these misperceptions or making sure that they're 396 00:32:46,939 --> 00:32:54,265 comfortable with the technology first before trying to give them the top of line version of it and kind of going through like that crawl walk run approach. 397 00:32:54,265 --> 00:33:03,363 I think there's a lot of the run sprint, like high end solutions being positioned and these people, the people are coming in well intentioned, but they just don't know. 398 00:33:03,363 --> 00:33:06,837 And there needs to be a better messaging of like trying to get to that. 399 00:33:06,837 --> 00:33:14,603 And a lot of the time the best answer is a simple one, not just from an educational standpoint, but also in the physical implementation. 400 00:33:15,267 --> 00:33:17,368 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more on that fact. 401 00:33:17,368 --> 00:33:26,060 I think the thing that you kind of pointed something else out and my biggest takeaway actually was this, was just how big that conference is getting. 402 00:33:26,221 --> 00:33:30,209 I went at the very first one and it was really tiny. 403 00:33:30,209 --> 00:33:34,843 It was in a single ballroom at the Mirage, which actually no longer exists anymore. 404 00:33:35,004 --> 00:33:39,949 And we were in there and I remember thinking, I was like, man, this is a little tiny for a... 405 00:33:39,949 --> 00:33:49,425 Charging conference and now it's like it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and I think that kind of just points to Something else that a lot of people are asking. 406 00:33:49,425 --> 00:33:58,812 well like with this new administration Are you worried about the industry and I'm like, no I look how big that was like how much excitement there is around all this stuff Like we've 407 00:33:58,812 --> 00:34:08,263 already passed the point of no return, you know when you have seven percent of the vehicles in Los Angeles are EV it's game over like people know 408 00:34:08,263 --> 00:34:11,566 once again, that's including the ones that have been on the roads for 20 years and stuff. 409 00:34:11,566 --> 00:34:17,265 It's not just like, the new vehicle sales are even higher, but I'm sorry, continue. 410 00:34:17,265 --> 00:34:19,305 like way, way high. 411 00:34:19,465 --> 00:34:24,165 And so we're looking at like, people know that they're better cars, like they're just better. 412 00:34:24,225 --> 00:34:26,185 It's not, this is not a political thing. 413 00:34:26,185 --> 00:34:27,785 It's not me because I'm in the industry. 414 00:34:27,785 --> 00:34:31,565 Like if you don't believe that they're better cars, like just go out and drive one. 415 00:34:31,565 --> 00:34:39,485 Like you're basically getting, if you drive a Kia Iconic or whatever, Hyundai Iconic or a Kona, whatever. 416 00:34:39,653 --> 00:34:44,093 those cars basically have the performance of a sports vehicle. 417 00:34:44,173 --> 00:34:48,913 Like something that you would have to pay like 80, $90,000, you know, back. 418 00:34:50,733 --> 00:34:51,309 Yeah. 419 00:34:51,309 --> 00:34:56,911 way more acceleration performance and then none of the maintenance that a high end performance vehicle usually does. 420 00:34:56,965 --> 00:35:01,565 Right, so it's like just on that level, you're like, wow, that's a way better car, I that car, right? 421 00:35:01,565 --> 00:35:13,725 So it's like, okay, we're reaching into this space where it's like, you get performance of vehicle specs and no maintenance from a car that's gonna cost you, know, it's starting to 422 00:35:13,725 --> 00:35:16,245 get down there, but it's like, you know, 30 to $40,000. 423 00:35:16,245 --> 00:35:18,005 That's not bad. 424 00:35:18,305 --> 00:35:25,425 As long as we can work it back down that 25K, we're on track. 425 00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:29,357 When I think something I like to remind people, and I'm not saying this is right either. 426 00:35:29,357 --> 00:35:33,459 The average new car price electric or not is like $48,000. 427 00:35:34,999 --> 00:35:38,821 so it's, it's not like new cars have ever been cheap. 428 00:35:38,821 --> 00:35:44,893 And I think that is like, there's, I just like following this industry, there's always been like this pushback and what's like, well, the battery's gotta get down to a hundred 429 00:35:44,893 --> 00:35:47,244 kilowatt hour or they're not going to make sense. 430 00:35:47,244 --> 00:35:48,755 Well, they got to get under a hundred thousand. 431 00:35:48,755 --> 00:35:50,006 Well, they got to get under 50,000. 432 00:35:50,006 --> 00:35:53,659 And I agree with you having like a $25,000. 433 00:35:53,659 --> 00:35:55,699 entry car is great. 434 00:35:55,699 --> 00:35:57,899 Would love to see that. 435 00:35:57,899 --> 00:36:04,439 But so many people actually buy used cars and we're finally seeing those start to have a greater inventory. 436 00:36:04,799 --> 00:36:06,379 But I do agree with you. 437 00:36:06,379 --> 00:36:10,099 Like I think and maybe I'm just overly optimistic about stuff. 438 00:36:10,099 --> 00:36:12,479 I definitely got a sense from other people in the industry. 439 00:36:12,479 --> 00:36:14,079 They were kind of like. 440 00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:14,979 I don't know. 441 00:36:14,979 --> 00:36:19,781 I don't want to say depressed, but maybe a little pessimistic going into the event. 442 00:36:19,781 --> 00:36:23,202 And then coming out of the event, everyone did have kind of a renewed source of optimism. 443 00:36:23,202 --> 00:36:24,463 And I think it's totally what you're saying. 444 00:36:24,463 --> 00:36:27,254 Like just how large the event is, how many people are there. 445 00:36:27,314 --> 00:36:32,416 And that's a big part of the reason we weren't even able to meet is like I was in so many of these workshops and other meetings. 446 00:36:32,416 --> 00:36:37,638 could, I wanted to spend more time on the floor, but I'd even get a chance to do that. 447 00:36:37,979 --> 00:36:40,145 And I think that's what makes it so cool. 448 00:36:40,145 --> 00:36:41,060 I mean, it don't even wrong. 449 00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:44,382 It was like an exhausting three days, but there was so much going on. 450 00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:48,013 could almost be like a four or even five day thing, which is wild to see. 451 00:36:48,164 --> 00:36:57,268 Yeah, and you know, I'll touch on one more point that you hit on, which like if you are feeling depressed about, you know, the EV industry right now, I wouldn't, I've been here 452 00:36:57,268 --> 00:36:58,138 long enough. 453 00:36:58,138 --> 00:37:02,420 I was here when the first Trump administration tried to kill it and he failed then. 454 00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:05,161 And that was a much better time to kill the industry. 455 00:37:05,602 --> 00:37:09,523 So we're now at a point where it's like, it's much harder to kill off. 456 00:37:09,523 --> 00:37:11,374 Like there's too many plans in place. 457 00:37:11,374 --> 00:37:13,105 There's too many companies that are doing this. 458 00:37:13,105 --> 00:37:16,376 There's too many, all EV companies that are successful. 459 00:37:16,376 --> 00:37:18,087 Like look at Rivian's 460 00:37:18,087 --> 00:37:22,347 right now in a down market, they are doing really well. 461 00:37:22,347 --> 00:37:28,447 So we're looking at an industry that is not suffering in any way. 462 00:37:28,447 --> 00:37:41,287 And to your point about the used vehicles, there's a ton of really good value to get out of the used vehicles right now because what we have in, say, Porsche, you could get a 2023 463 00:37:41,287 --> 00:37:44,507 Porsche Taycan for $53,000. 464 00:37:44,507 --> 00:37:46,227 It's so cheap now. 465 00:37:46,227 --> 00:37:48,327 I was looking at it, was like, gosh, 466 00:37:48,629 --> 00:37:50,212 I kind of really want that car. 467 00:37:50,212 --> 00:37:51,775 I don't have anywhere to park it right now. 468 00:37:51,775 --> 00:37:54,241 man, that's a great. 469 00:37:54,241 --> 00:38:03,137 there's there's kind of a pro and con, but I think overall a good or long term is like for a long time, EVs were not depreciating as fast as traditional vehicles. 470 00:38:03,137 --> 00:38:08,531 And now there's kind of been unfortunately for buyers a flip where they've been depreciating faster. 471 00:38:08,531 --> 00:38:12,373 But for the used car market and like greater exposure of EVs, you're totally right. 472 00:38:12,373 --> 00:38:20,279 And especially, I mean, once again, you're talking about what was originally a hundred thousand dollar, pretty limited car as it was, but insane performance. 473 00:38:20,279 --> 00:38:30,019 not just driving, but like the charging and all these different things that at that $50,000 price point makes extremely competitive, even with a brand new car and makes you 474 00:38:30,019 --> 00:38:32,921 really think is that really what you want to go with? 475 00:38:33,382 --> 00:38:41,626 Well, I think it's also the other side of that where I think people don't appreciate the fact that these cars are gonna last a really long time. 476 00:38:42,002 --> 00:38:45,635 I see a lot of comments online about, I buy this car? 477 00:38:45,635 --> 00:38:46,168 it bad? 478 00:38:46,168 --> 00:38:47,549 Like the battery's bad or whatever. 479 00:38:47,549 --> 00:38:51,310 And I'm like, no, the battery's probably fine. 480 00:38:51,310 --> 00:38:52,971 Those batteries are designed to last. 481 00:38:52,971 --> 00:38:55,632 If you take care of your battery, they'll basically... 482 00:38:56,493 --> 00:38:57,025 Yeah. 483 00:38:57,025 --> 00:38:57,389 know. 484 00:38:57,389 --> 00:39:00,403 So it's like, I wouldn't worry about any of that stuff. 485 00:39:00,403 --> 00:39:07,474 And it's like one of those things where I think the used market is gonna see a shift around too, just because of the nature of these cars. 486 00:39:07,474 --> 00:39:09,987 They're gonna hang around for way, way longer. 487 00:39:11,319 --> 00:39:20,353 It almost equates to my mom owns a 2002 Honda Civic and that thing will not die. 488 00:39:21,134 --> 00:39:22,204 it's beat to hell. 489 00:39:22,204 --> 00:39:25,775 Like it's been through me as a teenager driving that thing around. 490 00:39:25,836 --> 00:39:26,946 It still works really well. 491 00:39:26,946 --> 00:39:30,068 And she gets offers occasionally for people to buy it from her for like four brand. 492 00:39:30,068 --> 00:39:33,499 This is, you know, a 20 year old car. 493 00:39:33,499 --> 00:39:41,223 And so it's like, I think if you get a car that has that kind of longevity, all of a sudden people are like, I want that car because I know it's not going to break. 494 00:39:41,223 --> 00:39:43,503 like it's just a really great vehicle. 495 00:39:43,503 --> 00:39:48,123 That's EVs in general, is like that level of just longevity. 496 00:39:48,123 --> 00:39:52,543 Now to say that all them on the used market are gonna be good, that's not true. 497 00:39:52,543 --> 00:39:56,703 I've definitely driven some that damage battery packs that are terrible. 498 00:39:56,895 --> 00:40:00,449 So you do need to be like on the lookout and you do need to make sure you're protecting yourself. 499 00:40:00,449 --> 00:40:12,083 But overall, like most of the used vehicles, especially like I'll go back to that 2023 Taycan, like that car, you know, is under warranty still that battery, even if it broke 500 00:40:12,083 --> 00:40:15,667 tomorrow, hey, you get a free battery, like brand new battery in your vehicle. 501 00:40:15,667 --> 00:40:18,079 And now you basically got like a brand new car. 502 00:40:18,981 --> 00:40:27,298 Well, and I think it's you're totally right with like the Honda and you can say actually pretty similar to a lot of the Japanese car brands that they are known for that kind of 503 00:40:27,298 --> 00:40:28,559 resiliency. 504 00:40:28,819 --> 00:40:34,825 And part of that, too, is they've been around for a century of kind of getting that fine tuning and a lot of them. 505 00:40:34,825 --> 00:40:40,009 But there's also a lot of combustion cars that don't have that kind. 506 00:40:40,009 --> 00:40:47,294 And I think people always think like, well, this Honda or like these cars that last for hours, like, well, that's still actually a pretty small percentage of the combustion. 507 00:40:47,577 --> 00:40:54,252 I mean, we had a grown up, we had a super outback that eventually died at like 350,000 miles and could have been saved. 508 00:40:54,252 --> 00:40:58,114 But at that point, like what you need to do was more than what the car was worth. 509 00:40:58,375 --> 00:40:59,816 And that's that's great. 510 00:40:59,816 --> 00:41:07,081 But like when you start going to the electric vehicle thing, I think some of it too was like, OK, they've only really been in mass production now. 511 00:41:07,081 --> 00:41:13,264 And even mass production is like a stretch because that's pretty much the Nissan Leaf and the Model S for a little over a decade. 512 00:41:13,285 --> 00:41:16,603 You start getting more and more of these brands that have actually been around. 513 00:41:16,603 --> 00:41:25,043 for, uh, and I mean the brands, but the products like kind of get beyond this five year life cycle and just how much better car companies are now at figuring out points of 514 00:41:25,043 --> 00:41:30,503 failure and like doing QC testing in advance for a lot of like exactly to what you're saying. 515 00:41:30,503 --> 00:41:33,783 And then at the same time, if you're looking, I mean, don't worry, I love the Porsche icon. 516 00:41:33,783 --> 00:41:40,583 If you're looking at that specifically, the pro and con of that is the instant there's a new version out of it, it loses so much money. 517 00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:44,263 And if you're looking to buy when use, mean, that's also a big part of the reason it's appreciated. 518 00:41:44,263 --> 00:41:45,939 Now there's a newer version that 519 00:41:46,499 --> 00:41:48,701 honestly outside of it charging faster, which is cool. 520 00:41:48,701 --> 00:41:57,707 The old one charged so fast as it was that it's like for the car you're getting if you're even if you're not, that's only like an advantage if you're road tripping every other 521 00:41:57,707 --> 00:41:58,307 weekend. 522 00:41:58,307 --> 00:42:03,531 And even if you're only road tripping once a month, it's still such a great car for that. 523 00:42:03,531 --> 00:42:05,182 That like, why wouldn't you look at it? 524 00:42:05,182 --> 00:42:14,569 So there's, I guess where I'm going with all this, there's a lot to be optimistic about and kind of looking forward to see what has already happened and kind of go into your 525 00:42:14,569 --> 00:42:15,679 comment about like 526 00:42:15,759 --> 00:42:18,620 If it was going to die, I would have died like five to 10 years ago. 527 00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:26,019 And now there's just this kind of critical mass of it might not be growing as fast as many people want, but it's still growing. 528 00:42:26,019 --> 00:42:33,664 I think the people, the thing people don't see in a lot of the headlines is the actual auto industry has been shrinking and actually doing terribly. 529 00:42:33,664 --> 00:42:42,967 So anything that is actually growing in that industry right now is actually kind of a miracle and should be honestly celebrated more than what the headlines might have you 530 00:42:42,967 --> 00:42:43,747 think. 531 00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:53,154 Yeah, well, that actually leads me into my next point about that is like, we're actually getting pretty close to where you're not going to drive your own car anymore anyway. 532 00:42:53,254 --> 00:43:00,157 Like I live in San Francisco, Waymo in the last two years has absolutely taken over. 533 00:43:00,418 --> 00:43:08,301 Uber has slashed their prices to like the bare minimum just to stay competitive because people would rather... 534 00:43:08,333 --> 00:43:12,815 get in a car with absolutely no driver and take them somewhere. 535 00:43:12,815 --> 00:43:16,797 Then have to deal with like the mixed bag of what you're going to get out of Uber. 536 00:43:16,797 --> 00:43:21,259 And so I think Uber's days are now like numbered. 537 00:43:21,259 --> 00:43:24,410 And I think what we'll end up seeing evolving out of that. 538 00:43:24,410 --> 00:43:36,575 And this is some quote that I can't remember which Ford CEO was, wasn't Jim Farley, but they said, basically, if you can get the cost per mile down to a dollar. 539 00:43:36,803 --> 00:43:43,736 on an electric vehicle, if it's autonomous, you're basically on par with the ownership of a vehicle. 540 00:43:43,737 --> 00:43:49,460 So it's like, why not just, you at some point people are just gonna say, you know what, I don't need it. 541 00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:57,344 I'll just, when I wanna use a car, I'll just call, you know, whatever driverless taxi is around, hop in that and take me wherever I wanna go. 542 00:43:57,344 --> 00:43:59,373 And I don't need to own the car at all anymore. 543 00:43:59,373 --> 00:44:05,135 And honestly, I'll be perfectly honest, I haven't owned a car in over a decade. 544 00:44:05,135 --> 00:44:05,705 I love it. 545 00:44:05,705 --> 00:44:14,037 And anytime I think about buying a car, kind of like, I don't want to deal with all of the headaches that come with the car, even an EV that's really simplistic. 546 00:44:14,037 --> 00:44:19,518 You have to pay insurance, and I have to worry about people and all this other stuff. 547 00:44:19,698 --> 00:44:22,069 If I don't have it, it's just not a thing. 548 00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:24,610 And my life goes on as normal. 549 00:44:24,610 --> 00:44:25,390 I can get out of town. 550 00:44:25,390 --> 00:44:27,300 I can rent a car if I need to to get out of town. 551 00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:28,481 It's not a big deal. 552 00:44:29,849 --> 00:44:31,740 No, I think that's a great call out. 553 00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:35,501 it's been really wild to see the advances in the autonomous space. 554 00:44:35,501 --> 00:44:45,703 And that's definitely something we've talked about on here quite a bit too, where, yeah, I took away Mo, this past Thanksgiving when I was down in Phoenix with my in-laws and I 555 00:44:45,703 --> 00:44:46,744 thought it was overall impressive. 556 00:44:46,744 --> 00:44:51,602 They did not like kind of, and I've talked, I actually haven't had been in one in a few months now. 557 00:44:51,602 --> 00:44:57,827 And it sounds like there's been obviously another one that's made a little less jerky, but obviously seeing the steering wheel and all that stuff. 558 00:44:58,875 --> 00:45:03,695 It just the way that Waymo drove I thought was safe and great, but it just felt robotic. 559 00:45:03,695 --> 00:45:05,555 It didn't feel like a human in a lot of ways. 560 00:45:05,555 --> 00:45:08,295 And there's pros and cons to that obviously. 561 00:45:08,295 --> 00:45:15,695 But what was funny was recently we have a model three that has like the newer hardware for the self-driving. 562 00:45:16,595 --> 00:45:23,795 And obviously those are kind of in different realms as to like, obviously Waymo is actually doing it and Tesla says they're going to do it. 563 00:45:23,795 --> 00:45:28,035 But it's gone just wickedly impressive that I pretty much 564 00:45:28,185 --> 00:45:29,856 I turn it on without telling them. 565 00:45:29,856 --> 00:45:36,140 And then we got to our destination and like, I didn't drive the whole time and they had no, no clue. 566 00:45:36,521 --> 00:45:46,121 And even going down as, as much fun as going to the EV charging summit was, I just was kind of also blown away because it been, I used to live in the Bay area. 567 00:45:46,121 --> 00:45:47,211 used to travel in Europe. 568 00:45:47,211 --> 00:45:50,440 used to take Uber's multiple ones a daily. 569 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,452 Now I've been kind living more in a more rural area. 570 00:45:53,452 --> 00:45:57,945 And so it's kind of been a while since, especially post COVID, like being in an Uber. 571 00:45:58,007 --> 00:46:00,969 and taking the Ubers to Vegas and everything. 572 00:46:01,067 --> 00:46:13,829 I was just like, wow, this is such this I wouldn't say is more stressful or stress related, but just like the driving experience, the Tesla in some extent in the way mode, 573 00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:20,213 but especially the Tesla was so much smoother than your average Uber driver trying to cut through traffic and do all these other things. 574 00:46:20,213 --> 00:46:25,837 And it's just like when you think about it as a passenger, where we are at in that and how that impacts 575 00:46:25,851 --> 00:46:28,386 charging and all these different things for the end consumer. 576 00:46:28,386 --> 00:46:29,909 It's kind of a well done. 577 00:46:30,534 --> 00:46:41,314 Yeah, I if you really want to get in a time machine that, know, I always take cabs from the airport because it's so much simpler to just walk down and grab one and pull off. 578 00:46:41,314 --> 00:46:45,334 But like, I can see why that model doesn't work anymore. 579 00:46:45,488 --> 00:46:52,061 Whereas with an Uber, I can call the Uber, if you time it right, you can kind walk straight up and get in one, but it's really difficult. 580 00:46:52,061 --> 00:46:56,373 But outside of that, when you're at your destination, you just hop out and leave. 581 00:46:56,373 --> 00:47:00,756 With the cab, I have to sit there and wait for them to run my card and all this other stuff. 582 00:47:00,756 --> 00:47:04,347 it's like, cars are usually beat to hell. 583 00:47:04,879 --> 00:47:07,845 Yeah, the other one I took definitely was. 584 00:47:07,845 --> 00:47:17,525 Yeah, and so we're slowly evolving into this, into an actually like pretty, honestly, pretty bright and better future for at least some of these systems. 585 00:47:17,525 --> 00:47:20,025 So I'm looking forward to like how we start to evolve. 586 00:47:20,025 --> 00:47:30,305 It's like the thing I always tell people who are a little bit like negative towards autonomous and EVs is like, look, like these, to your point, like it's really only been 587 00:47:30,305 --> 00:47:33,605 about at best 15-ish years. 588 00:47:33,605 --> 00:47:36,707 Like if you really want to stretch it that far. 589 00:47:36,707 --> 00:47:43,901 Like, you know, really it's been about 10 and we're at the very beginning of a long, long journey. 590 00:47:43,901 --> 00:47:49,360 And if you want to go back a hundred years and look at what, how the automobile evolved. 591 00:47:49,379 --> 00:47:53,991 like over time, you'll see a similar pattern start to emerge. 592 00:47:53,991 --> 00:47:57,231 You know, like with the charging stations, people, they're not safe. 593 00:47:57,232 --> 00:47:58,972 know, batteries aren't safe. 594 00:47:58,972 --> 00:48:08,995 Same thing was said about gas that people would, they would protest about putting gas stations on in neighborhoods because people were afraid that they would blow up. 595 00:48:09,195 --> 00:48:09,506 Right? 596 00:48:09,506 --> 00:48:14,457 Like, like this is, these arguments and conversations are not new. 597 00:48:14,692 --> 00:48:16,933 All you do need to do is just go back in time a little bit. 598 00:48:16,933 --> 00:48:20,285 You can see that this is exactly the same thing that people were talking about back 599 00:48:21,467 --> 00:48:24,528 Well, And I think it's funny you say the decade thing because you, cause you're right. 600 00:48:24,528 --> 00:48:32,251 But it's like, was living in Palo Alto and it's like, there's a difference between being like in the R and D phase and like an actual commercial service. 601 00:48:32,251 --> 00:48:35,543 And in some ways Waymo has just barely left that. 602 00:48:36,193 --> 00:48:41,745 and so it's really only been a couple of years that way most kind of like left fully R and D has become more of a commercial service. 603 00:48:41,745 --> 00:48:50,579 So when you even think about it that way, it really is truly wild how quickly that as a service or even an option has evolved. 604 00:48:51,319 --> 00:48:55,112 And now obviously we could talk about autonomy and all this all probably for its own podcast. 605 00:48:55,112 --> 00:49:01,025 And before we go down that, I think we should probably get a little bit focused just given our time back on. 606 00:49:01,219 --> 00:49:10,292 I know we've talked a lot about multifamily and kind of Pando and how that helps with it, but I think looking forward and for any topic or any parts of it we haven't covered yet. 607 00:49:10,292 --> 00:49:18,287 I know a lot of our listeners are always really interested in multifamily and some of how that plays into charging and owning an EV. 608 00:49:18,287 --> 00:49:20,939 I just kind of like to hear your thoughts a little bit about. 609 00:49:20,953 --> 00:49:30,519 some of the things to think about how Panda really does help with that and how if you're in that position to really kind of work with you guys to make that happen. 610 00:49:31,097 --> 00:49:33,041 Yeah, I think we touched on all of it, right? 611 00:49:33,041 --> 00:49:41,941 So it's the upfront cost savings, the zero ongoing maintenance, and the full service and support once you do contact Pando. 612 00:49:41,987 --> 00:49:47,417 And the reality of all of those things was just to eliminate hassle and headache for the property owner. 613 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:57,524 That was the actual thing holding this industry back, specifically EV charging and multifamily, because they were just tired of like, EV chargers were a hassle. 614 00:49:57,524 --> 00:49:59,865 There was a company and they still exist. 615 00:49:59,865 --> 00:50:05,308 And I'm sure it was the same company that you couldn't get a charge at in the middle of nowhere because of way they set up the system. 616 00:50:05,308 --> 00:50:08,039 That's done a huge disservice to the industry. 617 00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:12,111 They've, you know, they've built these things up in a haphazard way. 618 00:50:12,111 --> 00:50:17,354 and it caused a lot of problems and it damaged the reputation of EV charging. 619 00:50:17,375 --> 00:50:25,600 And so in a lot of these properties, we end up going in and removing that particular competitor out and putting in our chargers in. 620 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,774 And that's mostly down to the fact that they just can't stand that those chargers are always broken. 621 00:50:30,774 --> 00:50:41,691 And when they're broken or they don't work, they then get the complaint from the tenants and that those tenants complain quite a lot because that's their main charging conveyance. 622 00:50:41,784 --> 00:50:50,164 It's the same thing as like, I tell people is like, if your gas station that you use all the time is closed for four weeks, you're going to start to get pissed and it's not going 623 00:50:50,164 --> 00:50:51,584 to take very long. 624 00:50:51,584 --> 00:51:02,004 And it's the same situation with, you know, at your multifamily house, you're going to be working with somebody who wants to use the charger and they can't, it's a problem. 625 00:51:02,004 --> 00:51:04,644 And it's going to be a problem if you have to share the charger too. 626 00:51:04,644 --> 00:51:05,564 That was the other issue. 627 00:51:05,564 --> 00:51:09,084 They're like, well, let's just have two chargers for a community of 200. 628 00:51:09,144 --> 00:51:11,484 Like that worked 10 years ago. 629 00:51:11,727 --> 00:51:20,149 work today, you need to put in probably 20 % if not more depending on where you're at. 630 00:51:20,229 --> 00:51:29,031 Because the other thing that we know is that the number of EV, the cars on site, once you start providing charging, start doubling every year. 631 00:51:29,171 --> 00:51:36,833 And so you're looking at more and more people go and either buy an EV because they know now I can get charging at home so I'm going to buy the EV that I want. 632 00:51:36,957 --> 00:51:42,095 or you're going to have a lot of people who live in a community that doesn't provide charging or doesn't provide it. 633 00:51:42,095 --> 00:51:46,317 provide enough charging move into that community because they do. 634 00:51:46,317 --> 00:51:54,170 And the big takeaway that I had, you know, there's a big conference, the National Multifamily Housing Council does a tech conference every year. 635 00:51:54,251 --> 00:52:04,555 The biggest takeaway from the last one that I went to was that the shift in the last 10 years went from EVs or EV charging is nice to have, they're a luxury item, maybe put in 636 00:52:04,555 --> 00:52:12,049 one or two if you have a luxury property, and then otherwise don't bother to you need to have EV charging or 637 00:52:12,049 --> 00:52:13,319 you're gonna lose tenants. 638 00:52:13,319 --> 00:52:23,122 And so to bring this conversation full circle, the thing that they're focusing in on is vacancy rates, when they hear you're gonna lose tenants, if you don't have EV charging, 639 00:52:23,122 --> 00:52:31,594 they'll open up their pocketbook and they'll start putting in the EV charger because they know if they don't, the vacancy rate is gonna go up and that's what they care about the 640 00:52:31,594 --> 00:52:32,444 most. 641 00:52:33,551 --> 00:52:39,785 Yeah, I think that actually does kind of go back to that theme we were talking about from the EV charging. 642 00:52:39,785 --> 00:52:44,098 So one of the big things to me was visibility. 643 00:52:44,098 --> 00:52:49,212 And so that visibility of when someone sees there's actually chargers at where they're renting, they're like, I can get one now. 644 00:52:49,212 --> 00:52:55,806 And so here in that stat that it starts doubling makes so much sense because EV charging visibility, I think is one big part of it. 645 00:52:55,806 --> 00:53:03,211 And then the second part was just like so many of these groups I was talking to, it's just like, and I've been working with, with our consultancy is just like, 646 00:53:03,257 --> 00:53:04,888 You just have to get butts in seats still. 647 00:53:04,888 --> 00:53:09,440 I know that's what people were doing like a decade ago and we think we're better on way past that. 648 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:10,941 No, we're still way too early. 649 00:53:10,941 --> 00:53:19,195 And if you want to like people to get that light bulb moment and see the switch, they have to get behind an EV and like drive it just for five minutes and then quickly they get it. 650 00:53:19,195 --> 00:53:23,038 But you still just have to get butts in seats and have this ability for EV charger. 651 00:53:23,038 --> 00:53:27,540 So they feel comfortable that there's a place to charge versus what used to be. 652 00:53:27,540 --> 00:53:32,963 They have to see a gas station and they don't, so many people don't really get that whole. 653 00:53:33,061 --> 00:53:40,891 part that makes an EV great is the level two and level one even side of it about being able to actually charge more than 80 % of the time that way. 654 00:53:40,891 --> 00:53:46,297 And so having to go to a charger or having to go to a gas station like they normally do. 655 00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:55,609 Yeah, I mean, you kind of bring up something really interesting that, you know, the last time we spoke, I shared with you a project called Woodland Creek, where we outfitted a 90 656 00:53:55,609 --> 00:54:00,969 unit condo with 92 chargers for only $405 a station. 657 00:54:01,049 --> 00:54:04,749 Go back and check that out, by the way, if you really want to hear that story. 658 00:54:04,749 --> 00:54:05,809 I'm not going to. 659 00:54:06,289 --> 00:54:07,189 Yeah. 660 00:54:08,409 --> 00:54:08,845 Yeah. 661 00:54:08,845 --> 00:54:10,467 I won't dive too deep into that. 662 00:54:10,467 --> 00:54:18,174 can go listen to the other podcast for that one, but we're doing a ribbon cutting at the end of May on May 31st at that property. 663 00:54:18,174 --> 00:54:25,956 And the thing that I'll bring up, number one, we are going to do like, you know, some EV showcases so people can sit in them and actually get a feel for them. 664 00:54:25,956 --> 00:54:31,649 What was really, really interesting is that that project has only been installed for about three months. 665 00:54:31,649 --> 00:54:36,471 We've already had two people buy EVs at that property. 666 00:54:36,471 --> 00:54:36,781 Right. 667 00:54:36,781 --> 00:54:41,213 So in three months, two people immediately sold their little car, got in and went and bought. 668 00:54:41,213 --> 00:54:43,354 I think one's a Tesla and one was a Hyundai. 669 00:54:43,354 --> 00:54:48,086 So it's like we are, we already now feel like we've solved that chicken and egg problem. 670 00:54:48,086 --> 00:54:49,711 Like, what do you need to put in first? 671 00:54:49,711 --> 00:54:53,118 Do you need the EV drivers on site first, or do you need the EV chargers? 672 00:54:53,118 --> 00:54:56,019 I think in all honesty, you need the charging 673 00:54:56,019 --> 00:55:04,965 first because now people know especially the where the we're at with this industry that you can you know, Hey, if I put in these EV Chargers, the EV drivers are going to show up 674 00:55:04,965 --> 00:55:09,593 and the people on my property are probably going to start buying cars because they've wanted one for so long. 675 00:55:09,593 --> 00:55:11,750 They just didn't know where to actually charge it. 676 00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:15,252 And now that you have that ability, it's going to change things. 677 00:55:15,252 --> 00:55:21,036 And the really interesting thing about that property is literally like it's not even a full block away. 678 00:55:21,036 --> 00:55:25,799 There's a bank of EV go superchargers, DC fast chargers. 679 00:55:25,799 --> 00:55:32,419 that are there, are right very, very nearby the campus of that property. 680 00:55:32,899 --> 00:55:40,999 And people are still opting to buy more waiting because they're like, I don't wanna park it over there for however, you know, 30, 45 minutes and then have to move it. 681 00:55:40,999 --> 00:55:42,459 That's an inconvenience. 682 00:55:42,459 --> 00:55:46,139 I wanna have to park it in my space, charge it up and walk away and leave. 683 00:55:46,299 --> 00:55:54,077 That's the thing, that is the key to making EVs work, is making it more convenient for people to charge their car at home. 684 00:55:55,205 --> 00:56:01,780 I guess one final thing and that's perfect time because I wanted to get to the ribbon cutting and talk about all that. 685 00:56:02,741 --> 00:56:08,146 but I I've seen with some people who do have, they're staying in apartments. 686 00:56:08,146 --> 00:56:14,890 There's some, apartment complexes where they have EV charging now where it's like, okay, here are the EV charging spots. 687 00:56:15,832 --> 00:56:16,993 charge your EV there. 688 00:56:16,993 --> 00:56:20,806 And then once it's ideally try and move it as soon as you can. 689 00:56:20,806 --> 00:56:25,275 And it's obviously kind of loosely enforced versus some that they're like, 690 00:56:25,275 --> 00:56:35,955 We have parking for 150, like just for example, I'm just pulling these numbers out of nowhere, like regular parking permits 150, but for a EV parking space, it's 175 or 691 00:56:35,955 --> 00:56:37,055 something like that. 692 00:56:37,055 --> 00:56:47,255 Are you seeing, or do you have any recommendations for multifamily and apartment dwellings that are implementing EV charging for the first time, how to kind of think about and kind 693 00:56:47,255 --> 00:56:48,715 of execute that? 694 00:56:49,260 --> 00:56:50,211 Yeah, I do. 695 00:56:50,211 --> 00:56:56,054 The biggest thing that they need to be looking at is the scalability of what their solution is going to be able to do. 696 00:56:56,054 --> 00:57:01,756 So not just thinking about what you need to put in today, but what you're going to need in the near future. 697 00:57:01,897 --> 00:57:08,495 Because at one point, you're probably going to want to at least for the next decade scale it up to maybe 50%. 698 00:57:08,495 --> 00:57:10,181 You know, out here in the Bay Area, 699 00:57:10,181 --> 00:57:14,641 We're already at well over 40 % new vehicle sales are electric. 700 00:57:14,641 --> 00:57:18,921 it's gonna, at some point we're gonna hit 40 % on the roads. 701 00:57:18,961 --> 00:57:21,829 And so you're gonna need 40 % in the parking lot. 702 00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:23,949 You don't need it right now though. 703 00:57:23,949 --> 00:57:32,989 And so one of the things that we did build into our solution is that, you know, that daisy chaining technology is actually really cool because I can drop in one charger and then as 704 00:57:32,989 --> 00:57:39,969 I need more, can branch off multiple from it and the installs and the costs are really, really cheap. 705 00:57:39,969 --> 00:57:46,755 So it's like 500 bucks to add one more charger rather than I have to do another, you know, $5,000 run. 706 00:57:46,755 --> 00:57:56,473 I do that $5,000 run once, which with ours it's actually about 2,500 2,500, but I only had to do that once and now I can branch off five other outlets off of it. 707 00:57:56,473 --> 00:58:02,778 And so we try to build in a way for the system to expand easily within the garage and grow. 708 00:58:02,818 --> 00:58:10,745 And really that's what they need to be thinking about is not just I have 10 EV drivers I need to put in 10 chargers today and now I'm done. 709 00:58:10,745 --> 00:58:13,207 It's like, no, you need to put in 10 now. 710 00:58:13,207 --> 00:58:15,928 You probably need to like actually put in 20 now. 711 00:58:16,483 --> 00:58:21,936 And then you need to start thinking about how do I scale that 15 to 20 to 30 to 40 over the next decade? 712 00:58:21,936 --> 00:58:31,591 And basically look for providers that are going to give you that ability to scale easily and not just, you can scale but it's got costs. 713 00:58:31,591 --> 00:58:33,192 Easily and cost effectively. 714 00:58:33,192 --> 00:58:38,845 Those are the keys and that's why I believe Pando does have the right solution to solve this market problem. 715 00:58:40,035 --> 00:58:44,577 Now that I think is a great place to end it at, but Joe, thank you so much for coming on again. 716 00:58:45,018 --> 00:58:52,852 For those who are listening, I know we'll have some links in today's show notes, but what's the best way to connect with you or kind of learn about Pando and any other 717 00:58:52,852 --> 00:58:54,733 upcoming events your team may have. 718 00:58:54,797 --> 00:58:55,497 Absolutely. 719 00:58:55,497 --> 00:59:03,979 So number one, May 31st at the Woodland Creek HOA in East Palo Alto, we're doing a ribbon cutting for our flagship 100%. 720 00:59:03,979 --> 00:59:11,226 We believe this is the largest 100 % property in the nation, but I'll just say it at minimum is the largest in California. 721 00:59:11,226 --> 00:59:12,726 We know that for sure. 722 00:59:13,147 --> 00:59:14,992 You can find me, follow me on LinkedIn. 723 00:59:14,992 --> 00:59:17,463 I love to have chats and conversations with people there. 724 00:59:17,463 --> 00:59:21,341 Or if you want to reach out to Pando Electric, just jump over to PandoElectric.com. 725 00:59:21,341 --> 00:59:25,253 Give us a phone call or follow our form and we'll be happy to get back to you. 726 00:59:25,467 --> 00:59:26,198 Thanks so much, Joe. 727 00:59:26,198 --> 00:59:27,550 We'll have to have you again on soon. 728 00:59:27,550 --> 00:59:35,653 It's always been great to kind of hear what your team is doing and even just in the few months since you've last been on how much change and how many different things that your 729 00:59:35,653 --> 00:59:36,705 team's been able to implement. 730 00:59:36,705 --> 00:59:38,667 So thanks so much for coming on again. 731 00:59:38,948 --> 00:59:40,021 Absolutely, thanks for having me. 732 00:59:40,021 --> 00:59:41,505 It's always been a fun time with you. 733 00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:48,770 That's a wrap on this episode of Grid Connections. 734 00:59:48,770 --> 00:59:56,990 A big thanks again to Joseph Nagel from Pando Electric for joining us and sharing his insights on how scalable, cost-effective charging infrastructure is reshaping what's 735 00:59:56,990 --> 01:00:00,990 possible for multifamily housing and energy resilience. 736 01:00:01,090 --> 01:00:08,150 If today's conversation got you thinking about EV charging strategy, whether you're a property owner, policymaker, or just EV curious, 737 01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:16,161 Check out Grid Connections Consulting, that's gridconnections.co, where we're helping organizations navigate the shift to electrified transportation. 738 01:00:16,161 --> 01:00:21,638 If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone in your network, leave us a five star review and subscribe to our newsletter 739 01:00:21,638 --> 01:00:25,532 using the link in the show notes to keep up with the latest from the front lines of the energy 740 01:00:25,532 --> 01:00:27,374 transition until next time. 741 01:00:27,374 --> 01:00:29,821 And this is the grid connections podcast signing off.