1 00:00:05,125 --> 00:00:13,784 Good morning, Grid Connections listeners and welcome back to Grid Connections where we explore how clean energy, electric vehicles and the grid all converge. 2 00:00:13,784 --> 00:00:15,946 In this episode, we're joined by Rohan Puri. 3 00:00:15,946 --> 00:00:24,895 He's the CEO of Stable to unpack one of the most critical and overlooked parts of the EV ecosystem, how to make charging profitable and predictable. 4 00:00:24,895 --> 00:00:34,330 From the impact of ride-shared drivers and adaptive pricing to why the best charger locations aren't always intuitive, Rohan shares powerful insights into how stable is 5 00:00:34,330 --> 00:00:38,492 helping networks optimize placement and pricing with data-driven precision. 6 00:00:38,492 --> 00:00:48,361 We also dive into the future of EV charging, including vehicle-to-charger bidding, site intelligence, and the need to make charging as simple and seamless as tapping your phone. 7 00:00:48,361 --> 00:00:55,545 This episode is must listen for anyone deploying, investing in, or even just curious about the economics behind EV charging. 8 00:00:55,545 --> 00:01:03,349 Or if you're just another EV driver who is always wondering how can we make EV charging better, this episode is for you. 9 00:01:03,550 --> 00:01:06,521 But don't forget Grid Connections Consulting is officially live. 10 00:01:06,521 --> 00:01:11,894 We're helping clients from utilities to charging networks, navigate the future of electrified transportation. 11 00:01:11,894 --> 00:01:14,336 Learn more at gridconnections.co. 12 00:01:14,336 --> 00:01:16,477 Plus, enjoy the episode. 13 00:01:16,477 --> 00:01:21,201 Share it with one person who would love it too, and please leave a quick review to help others discover the show. 14 00:01:21,201 --> 00:01:28,026 And don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter for more EV insights at gridconnections.fm slash newsletter. 15 00:01:28,026 --> 00:01:30,528 All of these and more can be found in today's show notes. 16 00:01:30,528 --> 00:01:32,366 With that, enjoy. 17 00:01:37,491 --> 00:01:39,282 thank you for coming on today, Rohan. 18 00:01:39,490 --> 00:01:41,489 Thank you so much Chase, it's great to be here. 19 00:01:42,114 --> 00:01:51,132 For those who are listening who may not be familiar with what stable auto does, can you just give us kind of like a high level background and maybe how they've interacted with 20 00:01:51,132 --> 00:01:52,594 that and not even realized it. 21 00:01:52,782 --> 00:01:53,822 Absolutely, yeah. 22 00:01:53,822 --> 00:01:58,422 So Stable's mission is to make EV charging a profitable business. 23 00:01:58,422 --> 00:01:59,322 It's always been our mission. 24 00:01:59,322 --> 00:02:02,382 I think it's really resonated in the last couple of years especially. 25 00:02:02,422 --> 00:02:12,882 The way we do it is we provide software that customers use to select strong locations or diligence potential charging locations and to change and adapt their pricing in real time. 26 00:02:12,882 --> 00:02:15,362 So placement and pricing of EV chargers. 27 00:02:15,362 --> 00:02:18,262 We think that's about 80 or 90 % of the way to profitability. 28 00:02:18,262 --> 00:02:21,528 Have good locations that attract a lot of drivers and then 29 00:02:21,528 --> 00:02:24,982 charge the right price at the right time and you'll be well on your way. 30 00:02:24,982 --> 00:02:35,492 so we provide, basically we have software with some uh algorithms and AI that leverages data from thousands and thousands of operating charges across the country to help us 31 00:02:35,492 --> 00:02:41,677 understand what makes good sites good and what makes bad sites bad and help our customers avoid those pitfalls. 32 00:02:42,816 --> 00:02:46,716 And I know that sounds like it should be such a straightforward thing. 33 00:02:46,716 --> 00:02:57,172 And I, it's such a common topic we talk about on the show, but I guess at a high level, let's start with maybe some of the probably top three pitfalls you see, and then maybe 34 00:02:57,172 --> 00:03:01,024 we'll go into some more uh future looking trends. 35 00:03:01,132 --> 00:03:01,662 Yeah. 36 00:03:01,662 --> 00:03:09,546 Well, I think most charging infrastructure has been deployed with, uh, basically wherever is easiest. 37 00:03:10,027 --> 00:03:11,658 It's which means like, where can we get permits? 38 00:03:11,658 --> 00:03:12,578 Where is there enough power? 39 00:03:12,578 --> 00:03:21,233 Um, and then where makes intuitive sense for people, which is like, okay, let's put them in like malls or grocery stores or things like that, that makes sense that match with the 40 00:03:21,233 --> 00:03:22,074 dwell time. 41 00:03:22,074 --> 00:03:29,612 And I think what we've seen with some of the more, the larger like DC fast charging companies, especially is that, know, that, strategy doesn't always work out well. 42 00:03:29,612 --> 00:03:34,124 It turns out the best locations for EV chargers isn't very intuitive. 43 00:03:34,164 --> 00:03:42,708 And the reason that stable exists is because many of those companies have run into that problem themselves where they're seeing, wow, some sites are totally underutilized and 44 00:03:42,708 --> 00:03:44,909 some of the sites they didn't think would be winners are huge winners. 45 00:03:44,909 --> 00:03:49,141 Um, and so what makes a good site is kind of a combination of things. 46 00:03:49,141 --> 00:03:54,253 know, people tend to think like, okay, EV penetration matters a lot and traffic matters a lot. 47 00:03:54,253 --> 00:03:57,454 Of course those matter, but it has to be taken in context. 48 00:03:57,454 --> 00:04:01,836 We have a lot of EVs that are registered near the site that you're looking to deploy at. 49 00:04:02,277 --> 00:04:06,499 Well, it depends how far those vehicles driving every day and where are they coming from? 50 00:04:06,499 --> 00:04:09,761 Are they coming from a home, a single family home or a multi-unit dwelling? 51 00:04:10,001 --> 00:04:10,852 And where are they headed? 52 00:04:10,852 --> 00:04:15,224 Are they headed to a place with lots of infrastructure and office, you know, like that, that has charging there? 53 00:04:15,224 --> 00:04:18,987 So it's not super intuitive to figure out where charges should go. 54 00:04:18,987 --> 00:04:25,358 And that's why we've had to train a machine learning model that can predict what the utilization of a charging station will be. 55 00:04:25,358 --> 00:04:30,700 So we predict, what would the last 12 months of utilization have been if you had deployed at this location. 56 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:36,021 And then you can use a bunch of algorithms to sort of forecast that out, calculate your energy costs, things like that. 57 00:04:36,021 --> 00:04:45,924 We also expose a lot of really interesting insights around demographics and traffic and utilization rates of sites within your vicinity or within a region. 58 00:04:46,064 --> 00:04:53,368 But the goal is to give them tools to diligence a site that they're about to spend upwards of close to a million dollars a capital for a given charging location. 59 00:04:53,368 --> 00:04:58,600 You're doing some basic diligence to make sure the utilization and the costs and those kinds of things are expected. 60 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,022 So that was a long-winded way to say one is it's not very intuitive. 61 00:05:02,022 --> 00:05:06,803 The second pitfall that we see is that just because a site has high utilization doesn't mean it will make money. 62 00:05:06,803 --> 00:05:09,705 And that depends on your energy costs and things like demand charges. 63 00:05:09,705 --> 00:05:12,266 So it's not enough to just know how many people are going to show up. 64 00:05:12,266 --> 00:05:17,227 You must also know when those people are likely to show up and what the energy costs might be at those windows. 65 00:05:18,148 --> 00:05:22,389 And then I think the third pitfall we see is that there's an over-focus on competition. 66 00:05:23,564 --> 00:05:28,236 where you think you should not deploy where there's competitors and you avoid them at all costs. 67 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:36,980 uh When in fact, what we observe is that when you, a competitor deploys across the street, one from one of your charging locations, both you and the competitor benefit from better 68 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:39,821 utilization than you otherwise would have seen. 69 00:05:40,182 --> 00:05:46,985 And it's kind of like the, you know, the dealership effect or the jewelry store effect or the QSR effect, right? 70 00:05:46,985 --> 00:05:50,686 But we've seen this time and time again, it's, you see the whole location becomes more attractive. 71 00:05:50,894 --> 00:05:53,014 Um, so maybe that's the third common pitfall. 72 00:05:53,014 --> 00:05:54,014 I'll add a bonus one. 73 00:05:54,014 --> 00:06:04,074 A fourth one is, you know, we do a lot of work on adaptive pricing of charging stations, about 5,000, almost 5,000 charges today are adaptively and dynamically being priced, um, 74 00:06:04,074 --> 00:06:05,474 with the help of stable. 75 00:06:06,114 --> 00:06:14,914 And that means like per location pricing and by time pricing, um, most customers today, or most people in charging today update their prices once a year or once a quarter. 76 00:06:14,914 --> 00:06:19,368 Just by moving to once a week, you should see double digit impact and net margin. 77 00:06:19,368 --> 00:06:21,009 And if you're doing those price changes, right. 78 00:06:21,009 --> 00:06:22,801 So it's very significant. 79 00:06:22,801 --> 00:06:27,084 And I think people are afraid to change their prices, but, really it's a big driver of demand. 80 00:06:27,084 --> 00:06:34,329 And there are some places where people are sensitive and some people were much less sensitive to price and you need to be able to take advantage of those effects to drive the 81 00:06:34,329 --> 00:06:35,740 right operating margin. 82 00:06:36,950 --> 00:06:37,150 Yeah. 83 00:06:37,150 --> 00:06:44,243 And I think it's really interesting because like, if you look at the EV industry and EV drivers, obviously we have the early adopters. 84 00:06:44,243 --> 00:06:48,062 mean, go back a decade, supercharging and fast chargers really weren't even a thing. 85 00:06:48,062 --> 00:06:48,715 It was level two. 86 00:06:48,715 --> 00:06:51,957 And so we really seen a lot of evolution and changes. 87 00:06:51,957 --> 00:06:55,429 So that has to kind of play into, especially when you're moving forward. 88 00:06:55,429 --> 00:07:01,932 One thing I'm kind of curious that we talk a lot about that's had a huge impact with utilization, especially is ride share drivers. 89 00:07:01,932 --> 00:07:03,126 And I'm kind of curious. 90 00:07:03,126 --> 00:07:11,926 Are you seeing that in the modeling or are there ways you can kind of focus for sites that are probably more rideshare heavy than others? 91 00:07:12,206 --> 00:07:15,929 Yeah, rideshare turns out in some locations, I do think it's been exaggerated a little bit. 92 00:07:15,929 --> 00:07:20,032 It's, know, it's obviously EV adoption and rideshare is still on its way up. 93 00:07:20,032 --> 00:07:28,850 Um, but there are locations where, there've been studies published where they've seen that rideshare driver use has been one of the dominant, if not the most dominant indication of 94 00:07:28,850 --> 00:07:30,481 utilization in some areas. 95 00:07:30,481 --> 00:07:38,107 Those areas tend to be, you know, like places where there have been programs for EVs, like in Colorado and California and things like that. 96 00:07:38,548 --> 00:07:41,946 Um, but the point is the same is that they can be a dominant. 97 00:07:41,946 --> 00:07:44,727 factor, it's, you know, it's harder to optimize for that. 98 00:07:44,727 --> 00:07:54,447 And the reason for it is like you, you, your instincts might be to deploy where ride share drivers are doing a lot of pickups or drop-offs so that there's a dwell time advantage. 99 00:07:54,447 --> 00:08:01,383 But then you also learn that there's a behavioral aspect that most ride share drivers don't want to charge when there's a lot of activity, right? 100 00:08:01,383 --> 00:08:06,818 So they want to charge at their lunch break or when there's a lowland activity and they want to do something while they're charging. 101 00:08:06,818 --> 00:08:09,350 they'll line up to like a restroom or a 102 00:08:09,464 --> 00:08:15,816 some other facility and there are groups out there that are financing or deploying charging infrastructure to serve the rideshare segment. 103 00:08:15,816 --> 00:08:17,996 you know, the amenities matter a lot more. 104 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:24,288 The other thing when we help customers with their pricing of charging infrastructure is that we notice there's a different sensitivity to price. 105 00:08:24,288 --> 00:08:32,901 It's oftentimes higher sensitivity to price from the rideshare or return driver segment, or sometimes like members and subscribers. 106 00:08:32,901 --> 00:08:37,122 Obviously they're a little more sensitive to that price, but they're also more in touch with price. 107 00:08:37,122 --> 00:08:38,502 m 108 00:08:38,818 --> 00:08:40,290 And so they might be more or less tolerant. 109 00:08:40,290 --> 00:08:47,693 It really depends on price changes going up or down, but they also willing to push their charge to a cheaper time of day, whereas the average consumer is charging when it's most 110 00:08:47,693 --> 00:08:50,700 convenient, not when it's cheapest most of the time. 111 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:55,142 I mean, my, totally agree with you that it is kind of hard to track these and have like specifics right now. 112 00:08:55,142 --> 00:08:57,340 Cause it is still also just so early. 113 00:08:57,340 --> 00:09:05,586 Um, but speaking from my own anecdotal experience, it does seem like if it's near a large airport, the charger, there's going to be a higher ride share, which. 114 00:09:06,207 --> 00:09:08,327 What's going to end up, what makes sense. 115 00:09:08,368 --> 00:09:16,271 And then the second is speaking exactly to your, um, the pricing I've had a couple of times where all roll into a charger. 116 00:09:16,271 --> 00:09:19,742 And when I get there, maybe I'm on road trip and it's later in the evening. 117 00:09:20,152 --> 00:09:21,552 I might be the only one there. 118 00:09:21,552 --> 00:09:25,132 And then I looked down and it turns 10 PM or something. 119 00:09:25,132 --> 00:09:29,552 And this happened to me once where I thought there was like some sort of car group show. 120 00:09:29,552 --> 00:09:33,252 Like there was just like eight cars, just all the sudden just come out of nowhere. 121 00:09:33,252 --> 00:09:36,932 And it was in this completely dead parking lot and all of them just plugged in. 122 00:09:36,932 --> 00:09:40,432 And I was on the phone talking to my wife and I was like, it's kind of like, wait, what the hell's going on? 123 00:09:40,432 --> 00:09:46,512 And I looked down and obviously it just shows that right at 10, it dropped from like 30 cents a kilowatt hour down to like 12. 124 00:09:46,512 --> 00:09:48,232 And I was like, okay, that, mean, 125 00:09:48,384 --> 00:09:55,744 Whether it's right share drive or not that that is such a big price delta I could see if you're definitely much more price focused that that's going to be when everyone just kind 126 00:09:55,744 --> 00:09:57,608 of shows up to take advantage of it 127 00:09:57,652 --> 00:09:58,343 Yeah, it does. 128 00:09:58,343 --> 00:10:01,805 I think people maybe, I think there's big swings. 129 00:10:01,805 --> 00:10:03,676 Obviously there's big swings in energy cost, right? 130 00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:08,529 The price of your electricity can vary five to 15 X throughout the day, depending on the utility you're in. 131 00:10:08,529 --> 00:10:15,554 uh So it makes sense that the CPOs, the charging networks, would try to match that at the very least. 132 00:10:15,634 --> 00:10:22,218 But I think where I see this going much more broadly is uh I think the vehicle is going to start helping you make this decision for you. 133 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:27,576 So you're not going to be looking at prices and trying to find the cheapest time and place to charge. 134 00:10:27,576 --> 00:10:34,568 This is an algorithm decision and it's going to be putting out bids to all the charges on route and finding the most convenient and cheapest charger on route and do that 135 00:10:34,568 --> 00:10:35,518 optimization for you. 136 00:10:35,518 --> 00:10:38,909 And maybe there's even bidding happening between the networks and the vehicles. 137 00:10:38,909 --> 00:10:45,811 Sort of make sure everyone gets their, you know, the charge that they need at the best possible rate, at the best possible locations. 138 00:10:45,811 --> 00:10:47,161 And you're trying to do this optimization. 139 00:10:47,161 --> 00:10:53,593 But I think it's especially as the world gets to more self-driving, autonomous, shared, you know, the ACEs kind of things. 140 00:10:53,593 --> 00:10:57,514 Um, we will see that who knows how far away that 141 00:10:57,826 --> 00:11:00,221 future could be, but I think it's pretty obvious. 142 00:11:00,221 --> 00:11:02,055 Your Tesla vehicle kind of already does that, right? 143 00:11:02,055 --> 00:11:05,962 So I think it's an obvious and easy optimization to make. 144 00:11:06,742 --> 00:11:14,754 Yeah, and I'm kind of curious about that because when you look at those kind of differences, obviously, especially in the price segment of it and kind of like what you're 145 00:11:14,754 --> 00:11:17,415 talking about, the bidding, like is this happening? 146 00:11:17,415 --> 00:11:31,019 I'm sure it's probably multi OS, but there's such a big difference between using a charred way or a plug share or a best route planner through CarPlay versus some of these native uh 147 00:11:31,019 --> 00:11:32,800 infotainment OS's. 148 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,936 usually, especially if they're from the legacy. 149 00:11:34,936 --> 00:11:39,440 They're getting better, but there's a pretty big night and day difference with the quality of these recommendations. 150 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,921 So I'm kind of curious. 151 00:11:41,041 --> 00:11:49,258 I'm sure your business is probably going to try to go through all these difference, but are there ones that you're getting more traction with this kind of integration level with? 152 00:11:49,624 --> 00:11:51,156 Yeah, so we don't actually know. 153 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:55,841 And the reason I say is that we typically work with a charging provider, the network itself. 154 00:11:55,841 --> 00:12:01,177 And that network's responsibility is to make sure the prices are on all the apps and those kinds of things. 155 00:12:01,177 --> 00:12:04,830 So we're just modifying their price, basically, helping them with that recommendation. 156 00:12:05,410 --> 00:12:09,561 So most of this has just been with the charging network uh level. 157 00:12:09,561 --> 00:12:18,184 And then they are the communicative layer between either the apps or the actual infotainment in the car to make these kind of route planning uh suggestions. 158 00:12:19,504 --> 00:12:20,644 That's great. 159 00:12:20,704 --> 00:12:28,787 Looking forward now, mean, kind of looking at some of these trends, like, are there any things really starting, we talk about ride share drivers, but are there anything starting 160 00:12:28,787 --> 00:12:33,324 to really stand out between, as we go from the early adopter to like, 161 00:12:33,324 --> 00:12:43,455 whether it be a multifamily home, uh, EV driver or something, or maybe the charging consistency, especially for like level two, maybe isn't as easy. 162 00:12:43,455 --> 00:12:50,823 And are there things we're starting to see on your side from that for trends or what are kind of the new things standing out to you? 163 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:54,693 Yeah, you know, it's hard to say if there's sort of any major trends. 164 00:12:54,693 --> 00:12:58,146 think a few things that we are starting to see, but it's very anecdotal. 165 00:12:58,146 --> 00:13:02,369 So I don't have any, you know, great, know, stats to share with you or anything like that. 166 00:13:02,369 --> 00:13:13,729 But, um, I will say that there is with the public markets, like the regulatory market, um, pulling back on grants and subsidies and different funding programs for EV charging 167 00:13:13,729 --> 00:13:19,320 infrastructure, we're seeing more private folks deploy, um, in that space. 168 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,654 We're also seeing the fleet segment focus a lot more on light duty than medium and heavy duty. 169 00:13:23,654 --> 00:13:26,116 think medium, medium duty definitely has the potential. 170 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:32,321 Heavy duty, of course, has a lot of potential, but we're still waiting for these vehicles to come out in big enough numbers and we're waiting for the customers who are eager to 171 00:13:32,321 --> 00:13:32,931 electrify. 172 00:13:32,931 --> 00:13:37,687 And so on the fleet side, definitely see a light duty focus on the charging infrastructure side. 173 00:13:37,687 --> 00:13:42,989 We're seeing more private sector interest into fund financing infrastructure, which is a sign of maturity. 174 00:13:42,989 --> 00:13:47,433 mean, we, we know this at stable because customers use us to diligence sites all the time, right? 175 00:13:47,433 --> 00:13:49,034 We're like the diligence tool. 176 00:13:49,144 --> 00:13:54,156 for predicting forecasting demand and ROI and IRR and driving up asset value. 177 00:13:54,156 --> 00:13:57,047 uh And so we tend to see that. 178 00:13:57,047 --> 00:14:02,840 And I think the last thing that we're seeing is a willingness to be more collaborative. 179 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:09,493 I think in the early days of EV charging here in the US, I think networks were a little bit more close with their access. 180 00:14:09,493 --> 00:14:14,785 You could only access it through an app, their app, and it had to be a member or a subscriber or whatever. 181 00:14:14,785 --> 00:14:17,016 But I think the economic pressure is so high about 182 00:14:17,016 --> 00:14:25,600 getting utilization up, getting margins up, that they're now realizing they kind of have to do what we're seeing in Europe, which is just open up access on all the platforms, 183 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:31,119 especially with the pressure that Tesla has been providing in opening up their network to everybody uh in all the apps. 184 00:14:31,119 --> 00:14:36,936 I you can now see live operating status of chargers on Google Maps, on Apple Maps. 185 00:14:36,936 --> 00:14:41,718 You don't only have to go to specialty EV charging apps or your infotainment system to see that. 186 00:14:42,274 --> 00:14:44,995 That's just, I think it's a good sign of the industry and where it's going. 187 00:14:44,995 --> 00:14:53,689 But I think at the same time, the industry is sort of struggling to come to terms with the fact that one of the top goals I see constantly with these companies is we have to get to 188 00:14:53,689 --> 00:14:56,680 breakeven or profitable as soon as we can. 189 00:14:56,981 --> 00:14:57,891 And that wasn't the goal. 190 00:14:57,891 --> 00:15:00,792 Like three or four years ago, even nobody was worried about that. 191 00:15:00,792 --> 00:15:04,959 They were just trying to get new sites in the ground at an extremely high pace, but now it's different. 192 00:15:04,959 --> 00:15:09,756 It's like fundamentals, economics, which is, know, the hand was forced, but I think it's a good thing overall. 193 00:15:10,464 --> 00:15:11,794 No, that kind of makes sense. 194 00:15:11,794 --> 00:15:21,017 I mean, you're even seeing, um, I think it was even Tesla the other day posted that they don't even do, uh, land lease exclusives. 195 00:15:21,017 --> 00:15:29,879 So like if other charges want to be there and it kind of plays to your point, a little bit of just opening up among many different areas, whether it be in that case, like the actual 196 00:15:29,879 --> 00:15:33,690 physical locations, but to also the backend and the software side of it. 197 00:15:34,791 --> 00:15:40,268 with what you're seeing around kind of those changes when we just, 198 00:15:40,268 --> 00:15:50,323 Our last podcast, had, uh, Lauren McDonald and Bill Farrow of Paranon, and there were kind of time about the changes in Nevi and how you're seeing this change in more private 199 00:15:50,323 --> 00:15:51,174 investment. 200 00:15:51,174 --> 00:16:00,279 And they've kind of had concerns that, well, Nevi part of the probe, it was, was to try and incentivize the places that weren't as necessarily profitable or straightforward to 201 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,121 increase EV, charging accessibility. 202 00:16:04,361 --> 00:16:10,314 And with this change to privatization, are you kind of seeing those changes being implemented or are there ways that. 203 00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:14,272 stable can help for these private investments. 204 00:16:14,272 --> 00:16:19,092 Like, know, this isn't a more rural area, but this is going to be the best place to kind of get that optimization. 205 00:16:19,092 --> 00:16:24,298 I am curious to see what you're seeing around that and how that figures into some of these conversations. 206 00:16:24,824 --> 00:16:35,041 Yeah, you know, I think unfortunately what we are seeing is a refocus strategy where these trading networks are focused a lot more on utilization and profitability. 207 00:16:35,041 --> 00:16:39,724 And the reality is, is that a site in the middle of North Dakota is just not going to do that well. 208 00:16:39,724 --> 00:16:50,912 uh And so I, I do think that's the role of these programs and the tax credits, the incentive programs is to incentivize deploying charging infrastructure in those locations, 209 00:16:50,912 --> 00:16:53,214 but we didn't deploy enough of it fast enough. 210 00:16:53,214 --> 00:16:53,896 And. 211 00:16:53,896 --> 00:16:57,178 new administration, the brakes on it. 212 00:16:57,178 --> 00:17:05,104 And you have to put yourself in the shoes of these charging networks who are, you know, they're feeling the pressure of they're not, they might not make it right there. 213 00:17:05,104 --> 00:17:09,317 They're feeling that like really big strain around like we might not survive. 214 00:17:09,317 --> 00:17:15,811 We might get, you know, delisted or investors might, you know, drop out or we might have to sell ourselves or whatever. 215 00:17:15,811 --> 00:17:22,356 And if you're in that mode, you know, are you really going to deploy charting infrastructure and take a risk on? 216 00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:30,539 utilization when you know that if you deploy in California, Washington, New York, Florida, Virginia, you're going to get a lot better utilization. 217 00:17:30,539 --> 00:17:31,670 Probably not. 218 00:17:31,710 --> 00:17:37,542 So yeah, it's an unfortunate effect, you force the market's hand, right? 219 00:17:37,542 --> 00:17:39,663 But what else are they supposed to, they can't just like take the L. 220 00:17:39,663 --> 00:17:40,904 This is not a nonprofit, right? 221 00:17:40,904 --> 00:17:43,074 They have to at least break even. 222 00:17:43,555 --> 00:17:51,694 One of the encouraging signs though here is that clearly companies like EVgo have been able to show that charging is profitable, is a profitable business. 223 00:17:51,694 --> 00:17:54,174 And then it's possible to do it. 224 00:17:54,174 --> 00:18:02,394 I think that's really, you know, that goes to show like investor risk appetite is definitely low, but it's definitely better to see a real example of it for companies that 225 00:18:02,394 --> 00:18:07,114 have been around for as long as EBGO has to be getting the utilization rates that they're seeing. 226 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,020 So I think it's kind of interesting because you look at, obviously Tesla has been around for a while. 227 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:16,780 They do kind of have that national coverage. 228 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:22,060 Electrify America was probably the first more public one to start trying to get that domestic coverage as well. 229 00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:22,600 And yeah, you're right. 230 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,460 You start to see EV go, but it still kind of spotty in areas. 231 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:29,900 And I guess for me, I live on the West Coast. 232 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:31,300 I've done a lot of road trips. 233 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,284 And I do find when you look at all these different 234 00:18:34,284 --> 00:18:35,484 fast charging maps. 235 00:18:35,484 --> 00:18:37,144 There does seem to be this really interesting. 236 00:18:37,144 --> 00:18:38,735 It kind of speaks to what you're talking about exactly. 237 00:18:38,735 --> 00:18:42,305 Essentially divide like east of the Missouri river. 238 00:18:42,305 --> 00:18:43,737 There's such higher density. 239 00:18:43,737 --> 00:18:51,669 And of course you start getting to more and more kind of like the traditional East coast and even kind of East Midwest cities that there would be kind of the density to support 240 00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:51,859 that. 241 00:18:51,859 --> 00:18:53,389 And then you go west of that. 242 00:18:53,389 --> 00:18:57,691 I mean, especially like to your town about going through North or South South Dakota or Wyoming. 243 00:18:57,691 --> 00:18:59,131 It is a bit of a charging desert. 244 00:18:59,131 --> 00:19:03,262 It's kind of lot better for sure than even just a couple of years ago, but it's still a bit of a desert. 245 00:19:03,426 --> 00:19:08,320 So I'm kind of curious at least with, um, and I think that does make sense. 246 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:17,328 I mean, we are kind of getting to this point where we do need to see more competition and the competition has to be in a way that it leads to financially sustainable businesses. 247 00:19:17,328 --> 00:19:26,935 Cause as we've kind of talked on this podcast, I think for a long time, it was like trying to find ways to get money versus now these companies are fully focused on how to make 248 00:19:26,935 --> 00:19:27,246 money. 249 00:19:27,246 --> 00:19:32,810 Um, and some of that has been the market and the changes from, uh, the, public investments. 250 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:42,723 So are there, I guess I'm kind of curious in the conversations and like when CERN, fast charger groups are thinking about trying to get that East to West coverage. 251 00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:52,305 Are there any other kind of conversations you have around that or anything in the strategy of like how to help implement that to maybe, cause I mean, you have kind of like pilot and 252 00:19:52,305 --> 00:20:00,567 flying J and they, they have their existing base and that's interesting too, because they do already have some of that coverage along the interstates. 253 00:20:00,567 --> 00:20:03,208 And so kind of curious what you're seeing about. 254 00:20:03,284 --> 00:20:07,989 Is it really kind of doubling down with regionalization right now with some of these fast charging? 255 00:20:07,989 --> 00:20:12,202 Or are they kind of seeing those gaps and trying to make it so it is more national coverage? 256 00:20:12,802 --> 00:20:19,087 I think there, I mean, it does seem like it's very regionalization, regionally focused. 257 00:20:19,087 --> 00:20:29,706 uh There are folks that are doing broader strategies around covering gaps or major corridors, highway corridors and things like that, but it's certainly, it's quite, uh it's 258 00:20:29,706 --> 00:20:32,478 less, I should say, than maybe a couple of years ago. 259 00:20:33,179 --> 00:20:37,822 You know, there isn't really, and it's sad to see it, but it's just the reality of situation. 260 00:20:37,822 --> 00:20:42,686 We just can't take as much risk now if they don't know if capital is coming. 261 00:20:42,988 --> 00:20:49,181 And so they're going to focus where they know things are going to work or where they know they'll still do corridors and they'll still take advantage of their prime time real 262 00:20:49,181 --> 00:20:52,942 estate, but they have to do it as a balanced portfolio approach. 263 00:20:53,432 --> 00:21:02,066 and that's what people use, you know, stable to do is to figure out, okay, I'm going to have 80 % of my sites be in this category, 10 % super winners, 10 % might be losers, but 264 00:21:02,066 --> 00:21:06,528 it'll be paid for by the remaining, you know, the winners and the, and the medium ones. 265 00:21:06,688 --> 00:21:09,469 And they sort of take it, you know, just like investing, right? 266 00:21:09,469 --> 00:21:11,342 You can't bet on a certain style. 267 00:21:11,342 --> 00:21:14,695 a class of stock, but you want to hedge, you can, but you have to balance it out. 268 00:21:15,864 --> 00:21:17,484 Yeah, and that totally makes sense. 269 00:21:17,484 --> 00:21:25,864 guess looking to some of the things that other things that stable does kind of help with what can, cause I mean coverage has been one. 270 00:21:25,864 --> 00:21:28,024 The other traditional issue has been reliability. 271 00:21:28,024 --> 00:21:37,484 And I'm kind of curious with how stable with kind of the backend communication platform has maybe allowed providers to kind of help with that reliability and just kind of create 272 00:21:37,484 --> 00:21:42,924 a better in, uh, kind of end experience for the average EV driver. 273 00:21:43,522 --> 00:21:43,742 Yeah. 274 00:21:43,742 --> 00:21:48,084 So we, we don't do as much on the reliability side, at least not directly. 275 00:21:48,084 --> 00:21:52,466 We do help our customers understand when sites are broken, when they might not have seen it. 276 00:21:52,466 --> 00:21:57,588 Um, because, and the reason we do that is because we're helping them with their price adjustments. 277 00:21:57,588 --> 00:22:06,782 And so we, you know, there's, you can use a tool and stable to figure out, you know, what, what is a good price, apply that price across thousands of locations, and then go ahead 278 00:22:06,782 --> 00:22:09,553 and set it and we'll handle the whole flow of doing that. 279 00:22:09,553 --> 00:22:12,430 And then measuring like, what was the response to that price change? 280 00:22:12,430 --> 00:22:19,855 And so if the price doesn't go through or we get like a lot less utilization than we would have expected on that price change, then it typically means the charger might be broken or 281 00:22:19,855 --> 00:22:22,517 there's something else wrong, A road closure, like who knows. 282 00:22:22,517 --> 00:22:31,343 uh So why we don't flag it directly and we don't really do anything about it, uh it is implicitly does show up in our dashboards. 283 00:22:31,343 --> 00:22:35,586 Stable software is designed to be sort of independent of whatever hardware and software you're using. 284 00:22:35,586 --> 00:22:36,686 So if you're using... 285 00:22:36,686 --> 00:22:41,970 you know, charge point or drives or blink or EV connect, you know, it doesn't really matter. 286 00:22:41,970 --> 00:22:45,953 can, we can help you adjust your prices on any platform. 287 00:22:46,184 --> 00:22:52,879 we do have a partnership with EV connect where we have more native controls of things and a broader integration planned for this year. 288 00:22:52,898 --> 00:22:58,724 Um, which gives, you know, EV connect customers access to the same capabilities, even if they're like a smaller site host. 289 00:22:58,724 --> 00:23:05,690 Um, but, the point being is that we're very focused on the like CPO's financial. 290 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:06,390 oh 291 00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:07,070 stability. 292 00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:16,143 And I think the tricky part about focusing on reliability candidly is, you know, we have a lot of people are focused on reliability. 293 00:23:16,143 --> 00:23:17,763 And I think, of course, it's a huge problem. 294 00:23:17,763 --> 00:23:18,403 Don't get me wrong. 295 00:23:18,403 --> 00:23:20,554 It's not, it's not like it's not a problem worth solving. 296 00:23:20,554 --> 00:23:21,344 It's a huge problem. 297 00:23:21,344 --> 00:23:21,994 Everyone knows it. 298 00:23:21,994 --> 00:23:33,768 Um, but it seems to be an isolated problem in the sense that, um, it it's isolated in time and that naturally over time, charges will get more reliable, even if we don't do 299 00:23:33,768 --> 00:23:34,498 anything. 300 00:23:34,498 --> 00:23:34,798 Right. 301 00:23:34,798 --> 00:23:35,362 Like 302 00:23:35,362 --> 00:23:40,083 The hardware manufacturers are incentivized for their sales to make sure that the charges work better. 303 00:23:40,263 --> 00:23:42,304 And there's some clear hardware winners already. 304 00:23:42,304 --> 00:23:44,824 Like we know Tesla superchargers are better. 305 00:23:44,845 --> 00:23:46,625 know, Alpatronic seems to be doing well. 306 00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:50,826 I don't know what their reliability numbers are, but they, you people tend to choose them for reliability. 307 00:23:50,826 --> 00:23:52,287 So there's already some winners. 308 00:23:52,287 --> 00:23:57,508 And the other problem with solving reliability, and you have to be honest with yourself about your economics and your, company, right? 309 00:23:57,508 --> 00:24:00,969 A company that, you know, we have to make a profit, right? 310 00:24:00,969 --> 00:24:05,046 Um, is that in solving reliability, it's this weird incentive. 311 00:24:05,046 --> 00:24:11,570 If I make fewer and fewer chargers or make more and chargers reliable, I have less people to sell to. 312 00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:15,312 So it's like, I make the market smaller as I try and solve the problem. 313 00:24:15,312 --> 00:24:17,373 And so don't think it's our job. 314 00:24:17,373 --> 00:24:23,136 I think it's better to align it to somebody who is incentivized to make reliable chargers better. 315 00:24:23,136 --> 00:24:27,499 that's the other incentive is born by the manufacturers, people who sell the hardware and the software. 316 00:24:27,499 --> 00:24:33,262 They want reliable so that they have retention and more growth and they're known as the most reliable chargers. 317 00:24:33,262 --> 00:24:37,212 Whereas if I do it, in solving this problem, my market shrinks. 318 00:24:38,893 --> 00:24:40,715 No, I think that's a really good point. 319 00:24:40,715 --> 00:24:46,459 It kind of a interesting dichotomy that is unique to kind of what your team's working on. 320 00:24:46,459 --> 00:24:49,782 And I think I'm kind of curious with the pricing intelligence. 321 00:24:49,782 --> 00:24:59,950 I think that's really cool and such an important thing that kind of highlights the change from going from combustion technology to EV where you do have just the strong software 322 00:24:59,950 --> 00:25:07,116 layer and it's much more in said being reactive proactive when I need to go get a get gas in my car. 323 00:25:07,158 --> 00:25:13,433 I go to probably whatever's closest or what I nearby and maybe I occasionally price shop, but it's just what I think of. 324 00:25:13,433 --> 00:25:19,338 Whereas with the proactive layer of kind of this, especially when you're on longer road trip, it is really interesting to optimize for that. 325 00:25:19,398 --> 00:25:22,141 And I'm kind of curious to get more into that. 326 00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:28,626 One of the things you guys mentioned is just how that helps for a CPO to improve net margins. 327 00:25:28,646 --> 00:25:32,209 And I'm kind of curious, one, just maybe unpack that a little bit. 328 00:25:32,209 --> 00:25:32,870 That makes sense. 329 00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:35,852 And I think a lot of people listening would be interested in that, but two, 330 00:25:35,896 --> 00:25:45,656 What are some of the, I think when we look at current charging experiences, like let's use an EA for example, there's, you go up, you tap your car, that's a price. 331 00:25:45,656 --> 00:25:50,016 Now, if you have a membership, you save a little bit of money and I'm sure that plays into it. 332 00:25:50,656 --> 00:25:57,616 But something that I think would be really interesting that I'm kind of curious if your team is able to kind of help with is so many of the people who really got into electric 333 00:25:57,616 --> 00:26:02,336 vehicles to begin with and still to some extent, I mean, was the environmental aspect. 334 00:26:02,856 --> 00:26:03,288 And. 335 00:26:03,288 --> 00:26:08,348 When we talk about pricing and time, a big part of that too is also where that energy is coming from. 336 00:26:08,348 --> 00:26:21,048 And I'm kind of curious if your company has looked at it like leveraging a premium for either buying clean energy like you can from your utility anyway, paying extra for car, or 337 00:26:21,048 --> 00:26:21,888 just how that kind of works. 338 00:26:21,888 --> 00:26:28,048 And we'd just love to kind of get a little bit more unpacked of how it works today and maybe where you're looking to take that technology. 339 00:26:28,546 --> 00:26:29,216 Yeah, absolutely. 340 00:26:29,216 --> 00:26:31,687 mean, most, most in terms of how it works today. 341 00:26:31,687 --> 00:26:35,749 Yes, it's typically there's a flat fee and then a membership fee. 342 00:26:35,749 --> 00:26:39,078 And then there's some chargers today in a good number. 343 00:26:39,078 --> 00:26:41,001 shouldn't say some that I have time of use fees. 344 00:26:41,001 --> 00:26:46,253 So like in this hour, you know, this window is this price and this one knows this price. 345 00:26:46,253 --> 00:26:50,835 It's not truly dynamic in the sense that it's not changing week over week or season over season. 346 00:26:51,736 --> 00:26:57,750 and what I, what I think we need to see is we need to see variability based on demand, right? 347 00:26:57,750 --> 00:27:01,083 If your site has a ton of lines and queuing, it's a high demand site. 348 00:27:01,083 --> 00:27:03,296 It probably means you should raise your prices. 349 00:27:03,296 --> 00:27:07,820 Of course, no driver wants a higher priced, you know, charging station. 350 00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:08,541 We get it. 351 00:27:08,541 --> 00:27:11,383 But in every other industry, when demand is high, we raise prices. 352 00:27:11,383 --> 00:27:13,065 When demand is low, we lower prices. 353 00:27:13,065 --> 00:27:14,142 It's how we do things. 354 00:27:14,142 --> 00:27:15,735 you, I would rather pay a bit more. 355 00:27:15,735 --> 00:27:18,590 Like it's not, it's a pretty small incremental. 356 00:27:18,590 --> 00:27:26,062 And if that incremental means I don't have to wait in line, that premium is such a larger Delta in value that I'm sold. 357 00:27:26,062 --> 00:27:26,702 100%. 358 00:27:26,702 --> 00:27:30,622 And it's the same thing if your site is nobody's showing up, you know, lower your price. 359 00:27:30,622 --> 00:27:33,562 Like this is an obvious thing to try. 360 00:27:33,562 --> 00:27:41,602 And I think we're a little bit too quick to try things like throwing battery packs on site and solar and all these things was like, wow, that's an expensive solution to the same 361 00:27:41,602 --> 00:27:44,402 problem, which is that your economics aren't very good. 362 00:27:44,402 --> 00:27:45,742 And here are the other ways, much easier. 363 00:27:45,742 --> 00:27:48,802 You just type in a new number and you click save and there you go. 364 00:27:49,402 --> 00:27:49,842 Try that. 365 00:27:49,842 --> 00:27:55,182 And as long as you're really measured about that and you understand what your price impacts are, which is, you know, what stable helps do is that. 366 00:27:55,182 --> 00:27:58,962 run those, that constant experiment of, of pricing. 367 00:27:59,362 --> 00:28:10,702 Um, you'll, you'll, you'll see that, um, that change now in terms of strategies, like other pricing strategies we've seen, or we could implement, haven't looked into anything 368 00:28:10,702 --> 00:28:15,062 related to sort of emissions draw or, you know, climate impact. 369 00:28:15,122 --> 00:28:23,702 But I think one of the things we have that I thought is somewhat interesting and it impacts the driver experience quite a bit is, you know, another thing that CPOs do to help 370 00:28:23,702 --> 00:28:25,326 manage their costs. 371 00:28:25,326 --> 00:28:27,766 Is they do load balancing, right? 372 00:28:27,766 --> 00:28:32,386 So they, throttle your charge at certain times of the day, right? 373 00:28:32,386 --> 00:28:40,206 They like throttle your power behind the scenes, uh, in, preserve their demand charges or to reduce their costs. 374 00:28:40,206 --> 00:28:42,286 And actually what happens there is the driver suffers, right? 375 00:28:42,286 --> 00:28:46,246 You get like a much slower charge because just cause other people are also using it right now. 376 00:28:46,246 --> 00:28:47,086 And that sucks. 377 00:28:47,086 --> 00:28:48,646 It's like an awful experience at the same time. 378 00:28:48,646 --> 00:28:50,926 You understand why the charging networks are doing it. 379 00:28:51,026 --> 00:28:55,350 What if instead you could have variable pricing by speed, meaning 380 00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:58,251 I can pay to have the full 300 kilowatt charge. 381 00:28:58,251 --> 00:28:58,901 I'll pay more. 382 00:28:58,901 --> 00:29:02,333 I'll pay, you know, right now at peak, I'm desperate. 383 00:29:02,333 --> 00:29:06,154 So I'm willing to spend a dollar kilowatt hour for this charge and that speed. 384 00:29:06,154 --> 00:29:13,310 Um, but if I'm willing to charge and be throttled down to 50 kilowatts, I get passed down a discount and it's only cost me, let's say 25 cents a kilowatt hour. 385 00:29:13,310 --> 00:29:19,230 Um, why don't instead of like forcing throttling and balancing on the background, you incentivize it. 386 00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:23,942 So you say, yeah, listen, I will always give you the option to charge a full speed, but I have to charge you a lot right now. 387 00:29:23,942 --> 00:29:25,482 It's very expensive for me. 388 00:29:25,586 --> 00:29:33,491 Um, but if you're willing to charge slower and you're patient and you're willing to sit down for 45 minutes instead of 20 minutes, you know, I can pass on this. 389 00:29:33,491 --> 00:29:34,412 It's up to you. 390 00:29:34,412 --> 00:29:36,413 So give consumers and drivers the choice. 391 00:29:36,413 --> 00:29:38,574 I would like to see more of those types of strategies. 392 00:29:38,574 --> 00:29:40,916 do it in every, again, these are all things we do in every sector. 393 00:29:40,916 --> 00:29:43,107 You go to Disneyland, you pay more to go in the fast lane, right? 394 00:29:43,107 --> 00:29:44,726 It's, it's the same thing. 395 00:29:44,726 --> 00:29:45,478 Right. 396 00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:49,657 And that actually is a really interesting analogy of how to like the fast lane. 397 00:29:49,657 --> 00:29:58,437 don't the vernacular works really well, of course, because we're talking about cars, but I'm trying to think of this like as myself and a lot of these listeners, probably we're 398 00:29:58,437 --> 00:29:59,600 kind of EV nerds. 399 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,161 So like that clicks with us like, yeah, we'll pay the Delta or we'll be cheap, whatever. 400 00:30:04,421 --> 00:30:08,842 How do you message that to someone who's coming from a gas world? 401 00:30:08,922 --> 00:30:12,453 And that does kind of create a weird and possibly a bad experience. 402 00:30:12,453 --> 00:30:15,800 But I do like that kind of clear and simple messaging of like 403 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,700 fat, fast lane charging versus that. 404 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,760 And you do traditionally have kind of like the premium fuel versus regular. 405 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:29,920 there, there is kind of that mindset, but that I think that is the challenges around the messaging of it and how do you make it? 406 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:38,220 like someone who just bought this electric vehicle does like, wait, you mean I have to pay now an extra premium to just charge what this car can do. 407 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:39,789 And yeah. 408 00:30:39,789 --> 00:30:43,101 like you have to pay to do what it can do anyways. 409 00:30:43,101 --> 00:30:47,874 like the default is the slow and the, you know, it's like paying for high speed internet. 410 00:30:47,874 --> 00:30:49,064 You're like, wait, it could always do this. 411 00:30:49,064 --> 00:30:50,058 I just had to call you. 412 00:30:50,058 --> 00:30:55,238 You know, it's the same with, you know, when the Tesla vehicles had that like excess battery that you could tap into if you upgraded. 413 00:30:55,238 --> 00:30:57,249 It's like, wait, the hardware is already here. 414 00:30:57,249 --> 00:30:59,360 And I'm just, it totally makes sense. 415 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:07,124 think it's like maybe instead of fast lane or, or, you know, whatever, or premium, it's maybe you think of it more as like priority. 416 00:31:07,124 --> 00:31:09,603 We're going to fill you up before we anyone else up. 417 00:31:09,653 --> 00:31:10,652 for sure, for sure. 418 00:31:10,652 --> 00:31:11,773 I totally get it. 419 00:31:11,773 --> 00:31:22,456 And I mean, the way I'm thinking about it from the customer standpoint is if I have to charge at this one location, sure, that kind of makes sense. 420 00:31:22,456 --> 00:31:24,737 And the fast lane premium get it. 421 00:31:24,737 --> 00:31:33,139 And once again, if I'm at work or something and I'm just trying to charge my car, hell yeah, I'm to do like a slower charge and doesn't really inconvenience me. 422 00:31:33,139 --> 00:31:37,830 I'm thinking of it more from like, if I'm going also on a road trip. 423 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,260 It's like, okay, why not? 424 00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:41,840 And because I've kind of seen this happen. 425 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,740 And of course I've even hacked it. 426 00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:44,840 It's like, why am I going to this chart? 427 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,560 I should go to this next one. 428 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:53,800 And that to me is where you can have that really smart thinking kind of software layer to just say, you're going, you don't really need to stop in the heart of San Francisco. 429 00:31:53,800 --> 00:32:00,980 You're trying to go out to, uh, I don't know, let's say big bear or something anyway, and let's try and get you out of the city anyway. 430 00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:07,056 And this part, this is cheaper and essentially remove some of this, um, 431 00:32:07,586 --> 00:32:09,636 kind of busyness at this one location. 432 00:32:09,636 --> 00:32:12,100 I guess that's why I'm, I know you get it. 433 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:15,613 It's just trying to figure out like, how do you do this in multiple ways to get that smart? 434 00:32:15,613 --> 00:32:21,618 And it clearly we're working towards that, but it is really cool that that is kind of what your team is thinking about and how to approach it. 435 00:32:21,686 --> 00:32:22,096 Exactly. 436 00:32:22,096 --> 00:32:31,033 And I think that comes out, comes down to, again, I think if you create a bidding system between vehicles and chargers and chargers are just offering prices and vehicles are 437 00:32:31,033 --> 00:32:39,429 offering, you know, driving or offering, you know, batteries essentially, then you naturally create this incentive where the vehicles say, you know, I'm not that desperate 438 00:32:39,429 --> 00:32:43,092 for a charge in San Francisco because I'm going to big bear and I can wait 30 minutes. 439 00:32:43,092 --> 00:32:44,606 So I'm only willing to pay this much. 440 00:32:44,606 --> 00:32:47,626 And if anyone lets me reserve it and do it great. 441 00:32:47,626 --> 00:32:48,544 If not. 442 00:32:48,544 --> 00:32:50,642 I'm going to skip and wait and I'll try again later. 443 00:32:50,642 --> 00:32:53,865 So I think this is an algorithm thing that we've seen in many other domains. 444 00:32:53,865 --> 00:32:55,208 We're just going to see it again. 445 00:32:56,342 --> 00:33:02,384 And one of the other things that I think is really interesting is like, we've talked about this a little bit is like measuring the performance of the site. 446 00:33:02,384 --> 00:33:08,137 And then maybe see a site change where maybe it drops off and like you were saying, maybe it's construction. 447 00:33:08,137 --> 00:33:08,827 I'm kind of curious. 448 00:33:08,827 --> 00:33:17,831 Like one of the conversations we've had a lot too, is when you're going on a road trip, it's like, okay, there's an EV charging on Walmart, whatever during the day, plug in 449 00:33:17,831 --> 00:33:20,462 charge, go some locations. 450 00:33:20,462 --> 00:33:25,944 And I not to use the Walmart as the example, but some locations they're totally fine during the day. 451 00:33:25,944 --> 00:33:30,604 But you roll up kind of at night or later in the night, like, this location is kind of sketchy. 452 00:33:30,604 --> 00:33:36,064 Um, and I, know from my experience, I'm when I'm on like a road trip, I try like 800 to a thousand miles in a day. 453 00:33:36,064 --> 00:33:36,704 I don't really care. 454 00:33:36,704 --> 00:33:38,444 I just want to get the charge and go. 455 00:33:38,484 --> 00:33:44,704 But I know for like my wife and other people, there is definitely that kind of security, um, concern sometimes at some of these locations. 456 00:33:44,704 --> 00:33:49,164 And it goes to what you were talking about earlier where people were just kind of throwing them wherever they could get them. 457 00:33:49,644 --> 00:33:56,098 Does, do you, are you able to kind of pull back, maybe not necessarily that it's the security feeling or the safety feeling. 458 00:33:56,098 --> 00:34:01,224 But like kind of interesting things were saying like, wow, this charging location is packed from 8 a.m. 459 00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:03,616 to 6 p.m. 460 00:34:03,616 --> 00:34:08,114 But then as the sun goes down, you start seeing a drop off and maybe kind of it goes back to what you're talking about. 461 00:34:08,114 --> 00:34:10,374 There's that almost implicit common for that. 462 00:34:10,374 --> 00:34:11,184 There's maybe something. 463 00:34:11,184 --> 00:34:12,326 It's not just the price. 464 00:34:12,326 --> 00:34:14,888 There may be something else that's an issue with this charger. 465 00:34:15,342 --> 00:34:21,162 Yeah, it's not something I have any direct evidence of, but anecdotally we've seen times when we're like, what's happening here? 466 00:34:21,162 --> 00:34:21,742 What is this? 467 00:34:21,742 --> 00:34:23,302 And you can see it in the data. 468 00:34:23,302 --> 00:34:28,222 And it's a little bit unclear unless you're on site and you know that site, what might be the effect. 469 00:34:28,562 --> 00:34:36,842 But there was a customer recently where we suspected they saw a big surge in utilization because of this March Madness. 470 00:34:36,842 --> 00:34:40,502 Some March Madness game was happening and that's the only road in or something. 471 00:34:40,522 --> 00:34:41,382 And we'd seen that. 472 00:34:41,382 --> 00:34:42,146 We're like, that's... 473 00:34:42,146 --> 00:34:47,197 That's the only thing that would explain this big spike, you know, and it's, it's the same, you know, on the, on the flip side, right? 474 00:34:47,197 --> 00:34:48,368 Like what explains it? 475 00:34:48,368 --> 00:34:50,488 Is it broken or something else happening? 476 00:34:50,488 --> 00:34:55,546 You know, I think it's interesting, you know, a lot of our customers don't even have clarity on what is happening at their sites. 477 00:34:55,546 --> 00:35:01,371 Like they know roughly how many kilowatt hours being dispensed, how many sessions per day, but they don't know if there's queuing happening. 478 00:35:01,631 --> 00:35:09,364 They don't know if like how many charges failed unless they really dive into the data and figure out, this, this, this charge is broken all the time. 479 00:35:09,364 --> 00:35:10,514 This one's not. 480 00:35:11,702 --> 00:35:15,084 I think the queuing one is really interesting to me because that is something Tesla does know. 481 00:35:15,084 --> 00:35:22,699 Cause the Tesla, Tesla knows where the cars are and they know if there's a bunch of cars, there's eight cars, but four chargers, they know there's four cars queuing probably in 482 00:35:22,699 --> 00:35:23,870 that lot. 483 00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:26,422 But everyone else doesn't know that they don't have that data advantage. 484 00:35:26,422 --> 00:35:27,663 And so they have to infer it. 485 00:35:27,663 --> 00:35:32,816 And so one of the things we've been to try and help folks think through is how do you infer that queuing is happening? 486 00:35:32,816 --> 00:35:41,302 And one day without putting like a camera or something on site, one way you could do it theoretically is that you could just see if, if charging sessions are happening. 487 00:35:41,302 --> 00:35:46,263 in rapid succession, like somebody charges and then five minutes later, another person charges five minutes later, another person charged. 488 00:35:46,263 --> 00:35:49,674 Clearly there's a line and backup there, but you still don't really know for sure. 489 00:35:49,674 --> 00:35:57,957 So there's a lot of, you know, back to your original question of like, when do you, you know, you see these other effects, there's not that much, unfortunately, that much data on 490 00:35:57,957 --> 00:35:58,327 the sites. 491 00:35:58,327 --> 00:36:01,028 Nobody wants to put cameras on the site and sensors and things like that. 492 00:36:01,028 --> 00:36:01,438 It's weird. 493 00:36:01,438 --> 00:36:02,308 It's creepy. 494 00:36:02,308 --> 00:36:09,190 So we have to infer it from session data and usage and it's not always perfect, but it's, it's Tesla has a big advantage in that respect. 495 00:36:09,878 --> 00:36:14,850 Yeah, that is kind of interesting, especially when you're talking about the automaker charging networks, because you're right. 496 00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:20,253 They know, especially in Tesla's case, maybe like Rivian, where they have their own routing OS. 497 00:36:20,253 --> 00:36:22,043 And so they know we're sending these cars here. 498 00:36:22,043 --> 00:36:24,965 These cars are physically here and these ones are charging. 499 00:36:24,965 --> 00:36:27,215 So it must mean there is a queue. 500 00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:28,316 Do you? 501 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:29,556 And it's interesting. 502 00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:37,460 also mentioned the fact about like, it seems expensive to put a camera and going back to our earlier conversation around like. 503 00:36:38,070 --> 00:36:40,561 while there's good intention, there's value to it. 504 00:36:40,561 --> 00:36:44,522 It is really expensive to put solar and to put batteries at these locations. 505 00:36:44,522 --> 00:36:55,735 Do you think that there could be a greater Delta in value unlocked by putting a camera or what are some like site uh upgrades that you talk to your CPOs or others about like, you 506 00:36:55,735 --> 00:37:04,688 know, honestly, in seven doing this huge capital expenditure at the site, you know, if you just did this, this, and this, you would unlock so much value, whether it be through 507 00:37:04,688 --> 00:37:06,220 stable or just even like. 508 00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:06,995 Maybe a camera. 509 00:37:06,995 --> 00:37:07,599 I don't know. 510 00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,266 just I'm kind of curious around that. 511 00:37:10,062 --> 00:37:10,322 Yeah. 512 00:37:10,322 --> 00:37:12,462 I mean, I would say there's two things that get brought up a lot. 513 00:37:12,462 --> 00:37:22,042 One is internet connectivity is a big problem where, you know, a major network has signed a partnership with, say AT &T and because AT &T gave them a discount, but all their sites 514 00:37:22,042 --> 00:37:24,582 don't have coverage in AT &T territory. 515 00:37:24,622 --> 00:37:26,582 So they're like, oh, well, we made a mistake. 516 00:37:26,582 --> 00:37:35,322 And so now a lot of people are shifting to like signing individual data agreements with Verizon in this location and you know, whatever T-Mobile in this one. 517 00:37:35,322 --> 00:37:37,322 And that, that definitely helps. 518 00:37:38,158 --> 00:37:41,598 The second thing we talk a lot about is just making it easier to pay. 519 00:37:41,778 --> 00:37:47,618 plug and charge, think a lot of people know about and have talked about, but you know, one of Tesla's biggest advantages, you don't have to do anything. 520 00:37:47,618 --> 00:37:49,598 You just plug the thing in and it goes. 521 00:37:49,938 --> 00:37:56,758 And right now there's usually like, there's a card reader and then there's an app and then there's also plug and charge and it's confusing. 522 00:37:56,758 --> 00:37:58,658 Which one do you get different prices with which one? 523 00:37:58,658 --> 00:38:00,118 It's just so confusing. 524 00:38:00,118 --> 00:38:02,858 And you don't have to think about that at all when you're fueling with gasoline. 525 00:38:02,858 --> 00:38:08,278 So it's actually harder to pay for an EV charger, an EV charge than it is to play for gas session. 526 00:38:08,446 --> 00:38:09,857 Um, which is sad to see. 527 00:38:09,857 --> 00:38:13,290 one of the things we always ask them to do is just simplify. 528 00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:21,918 think what we're seeing, to be honest, is this effect of like CPOs really holding onto their differentiation and their brand and saying, like, I want people to use my app and my 529 00:38:21,918 --> 00:38:24,559 experience and my membership and my subscription. 530 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:31,345 I think the reality, you know, this is just my opinion, but the reality is, that I don't think long-term people really care which network they charge at. 531 00:38:31,928 --> 00:38:35,800 They just want the most convenient location, the best price, just like we think about gas fueling. 532 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,682 And I'm talking about supercharging or fast charging, right? 533 00:38:38,682 --> 00:38:41,244 em That's all you want. 534 00:38:41,244 --> 00:38:45,516 And what that implies is that maybe charging will be a commoditized business, right? 535 00:38:45,516 --> 00:38:48,188 The hardware and the software experience are all roughly the same. 536 00:38:48,188 --> 00:38:50,770 And I think they're resistant to that effect. 537 00:38:50,770 --> 00:38:55,292 But, if you look in Europe already, there's so much more, there's so many more CPOs. 538 00:38:55,352 --> 00:38:58,414 Every CPO has a partnership with like Hubject or 539 00:38:58,414 --> 00:39:04,894 There's even EMSP is like, they don't even have control, full control of their pricing anymore because there are all these apps you can use instead. 540 00:39:05,154 --> 00:39:14,054 I think the sooner networks get comfortable with that idea and make progress towards that, knowing that it probably will come one day, um, the better. 541 00:39:14,054 --> 00:39:18,214 so the networks, think that will be most successful are the most open, the easiest to charge on anything. 542 00:39:18,214 --> 00:39:19,214 Don't need an app. 543 00:39:19,214 --> 00:39:20,754 Don't need a subscription. 544 00:39:20,854 --> 00:39:25,214 They're charging prices and their availability is available on every mapping platform. 545 00:39:25,214 --> 00:39:26,674 Not just if you have their app, right. 546 00:39:26,674 --> 00:39:28,114 It's available anywhere. 547 00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:32,343 And it just maximizes for visibility and clarity versus anything else. 548 00:39:33,002 --> 00:39:37,615 Yeah, I think that talks about like really two things that we discuss a lot here. 549 00:39:37,615 --> 00:39:48,040 One is, I mean, whether we're talking about the electric vehicle space or not, the old kind of entrepreneurial innovation thought is for something to be, for a new technology to 550 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,601 take off, it doesn't have to be just as good. 551 00:39:49,601 --> 00:39:51,202 It has to be better. 552 00:39:51,262 --> 00:39:54,324 And right now gas isn't great, but I can just tap my card. 553 00:39:54,324 --> 00:39:55,044 It works. 554 00:39:55,044 --> 00:39:57,005 And I go on with my life. 555 00:39:57,265 --> 00:40:02,304 And between the apps, I kind of get, I can get an argument for an app or something or the membership. 556 00:40:02,304 --> 00:40:09,776 If it saves me money, cause that is actually something you have with gas, but that's where you really do need to see like the supercharging or the plug and charge experience, which 557 00:40:09,776 --> 00:40:11,587 is put it in, walk away. 558 00:40:11,587 --> 00:40:11,837 Sure. 559 00:40:11,837 --> 00:40:14,227 You have to set up a card once, but I'll give it that. 560 00:40:14,227 --> 00:40:17,768 And even then I've had an experience where I plug it in. 561 00:40:18,148 --> 00:40:23,720 It charged me and then it let it send me a notification saying like, Hey, your card is expired. 562 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:25,200 We need a new card, which is totally fine. 563 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:31,446 But the, I kind of think for the experience to be good for a consumer, you kind of have to give the tie to the consumer. 564 00:40:31,446 --> 00:40:41,270 So if there's a failure on that card running or something, no matter whose fault it is, just let them get charged because, uh, recently, um, and this is a network I have, it's 565 00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:42,361 more on the West coast. 566 00:40:42,361 --> 00:40:44,402 I cannot stand in general. 567 00:40:44,402 --> 00:40:46,302 And also they just have terrible hardware. 568 00:40:46,302 --> 00:40:51,395 Uh, recently I tested along the Oregon coast because it wasn't like I needed a charge. 569 00:40:51,395 --> 00:40:54,606 just would have been convenient because we were going into a place anyway. 570 00:40:54,806 --> 00:40:59,352 And even though it was only 50 kilowatt, all of them always have a card reader. 571 00:40:59,352 --> 00:41:02,152 None of the card readers ever work when I try and use them. 572 00:41:02,152 --> 00:41:04,292 And so they always force you to use the app. 573 00:41:04,292 --> 00:41:06,752 And so was like, okay, I'll do that then. 574 00:41:07,092 --> 00:41:12,612 And unfortunately on my iPhone, I've got some setting where if I don't use an app for a long time, it just deletes the app. 575 00:41:12,612 --> 00:41:14,692 So I go to pull it up. 576 00:41:14,692 --> 00:41:15,112 Yeah. 577 00:41:15,112 --> 00:41:19,252 And because of where I was, there was no AT &T cell coverage. 578 00:41:19,252 --> 00:41:23,212 So I couldn't even download the app to do this. 579 00:41:23,212 --> 00:41:28,072 I like, at this point, I'm just going above and beyond any other person would have just been pissed off and walked away. 580 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:34,842 And it just highlights exactly what you're talking about about just like this terrible experience where at the very least just make the tap and pay function work. 581 00:41:34,842 --> 00:41:36,744 It's got to be at least as good as a gas station. 582 00:41:36,744 --> 00:41:39,977 And we're really getting to that point where, yeah, you can just plug it in and walk away. 583 00:41:39,977 --> 00:41:45,852 That then unlocks a better experience that people will be more comfortable with and want to implement. 584 00:41:45,852 --> 00:41:47,716 Um, so sorry. 585 00:41:47,716 --> 00:41:49,303 Yeah, that's a rant on my side. 586 00:41:49,303 --> 00:41:51,713 no, I mean, it just, I mean, the fact is that you make it easier. 587 00:41:51,713 --> 00:41:53,014 It encourages better adoption. 588 00:41:53,014 --> 00:41:53,384 Okay. 589 00:41:53,384 --> 00:42:02,586 Like if you know that I, if you know that all, you know, whatever this network has, you know, tap and play, you know, Apple pay and you can just do that and it works. 590 00:42:02,586 --> 00:42:07,768 And it's like, yeah, I'd rather just deal with that than have to deal with a card reader and all that nonsense of downloading an app. 591 00:42:07,768 --> 00:42:10,638 I think a really good example of this is, uh know, analogy. 592 00:42:10,638 --> 00:42:14,709 Have you ever written the, the New York city subway system? 593 00:42:15,730 --> 00:42:16,160 Yeah. 594 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:16,620 Okay. 595 00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:20,601 So, you know, they have this Apple pay Google pay thing now, right? 596 00:42:20,601 --> 00:42:23,454 You can just put your phone down, whatever card you got. 597 00:42:23,454 --> 00:42:24,673 There's no app, right? 598 00:42:24,673 --> 00:42:25,275 There's no app. 599 00:42:25,275 --> 00:42:29,497 You just put your phone on the reader and they've, it just charges you and you go on. 600 00:42:29,497 --> 00:42:36,121 And they even do this thing where like, after you get to, I think it's beyond 12 rides or something, every ride from there on out in a week is free. 601 00:42:36,121 --> 00:42:37,731 So first 12 rides cost you money. 602 00:42:37,731 --> 00:42:39,816 And then after that, it's free for any subsequent ride. 603 00:42:39,816 --> 00:42:44,005 So you're like incentivized to use it more and more after 12, but you don't have to handle it in the app. 604 00:42:44,005 --> 00:42:44,865 There's no app. 605 00:42:44,865 --> 00:42:46,410 It just automatically does that. 606 00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:47,620 stuff in the background for you. 607 00:42:47,620 --> 00:42:49,041 And so you don't have to think about anything. 608 00:42:49,041 --> 00:42:51,670 just kind of, and just the adoption is just crazy, right? 609 00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:55,453 Like even people who coming in from out of town, the fact that they don't have to download an app. 610 00:42:55,453 --> 00:42:56,783 Yeah, they just, it's already there. 611 00:42:56,783 --> 00:42:58,173 Just tap your phone. 612 00:42:58,173 --> 00:43:00,864 And if I use it more than 12 times, it's automatically getting me a discount. 613 00:43:00,864 --> 00:43:02,584 So I might as well try and use it as much as I can. 614 00:43:02,584 --> 00:43:03,605 It increases that adoption. 615 00:43:03,605 --> 00:43:07,753 So I would love to see strategies from networks like that, where it's just literally there's nothing. 616 00:43:07,753 --> 00:43:09,637 You just tap your phone, it works. 617 00:43:09,637 --> 00:43:13,928 And then yeah, you'll get like, there's a, there's no membership you have to sign up for to get a discount. 618 00:43:13,928 --> 00:43:15,374 But if you use this, 619 00:43:15,374 --> 00:43:21,986 our network more than whatever 20 times a month, yeah, we'll automatically start giving you discounts and promotions. 620 00:43:21,986 --> 00:43:30,242 I was in the UK a couple of years ago, the underground had just implemented it and it's a slightly different, but more or less, yeah, you just tap it and it works. 621 00:43:30,242 --> 00:43:31,884 You don't even have to think about it. 622 00:43:31,884 --> 00:43:36,767 And I was just thinking like, as much as I love the New York Metro and it's I'm so happy they've adopted it. 623 00:43:36,767 --> 00:43:44,152 It's such a pain in the butt when you're like in a rush or you're running behind for a meeting and then you go to put your Metro card and then you're like, crap, I'm out. 624 00:43:44,152 --> 00:43:45,033 have to go reload it. 625 00:43:45,033 --> 00:43:46,914 You get in line or the thing's busted. 626 00:43:46,914 --> 00:43:49,536 And so just go into that like level of just. 627 00:43:49,886 --> 00:43:53,257 Making the experience so much more convenient and just working for the users. 628 00:43:53,257 --> 00:43:54,018 So great to see. 629 00:43:54,018 --> 00:44:00,620 Um, I mean, obviously Ron, I think we could keep talking for quite a while, but I realized we're running up on time for you. 630 00:44:00,620 --> 00:44:08,903 Uh, for those listening, are there any other things you'd like to share or just what's the best way for people to, uh, also engage with you and find out about any upcoming things 631 00:44:08,903 --> 00:44:10,674 that stable auto is working on. 632 00:44:10,828 --> 00:44:11,629 Yeah, absolutely. 633 00:44:11,629 --> 00:44:14,901 mean, the best way is to find me on LinkedIn, Rohan Puri. 634 00:44:14,901 --> 00:44:23,527 uh We post regularly like two, three times a week of data and insights about how to make a more profitable charging network. 635 00:44:23,527 --> 00:44:24,418 It's totally free. 636 00:44:24,418 --> 00:44:27,670 You can also check out our website, www.stable.auto. 637 00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:31,442 We actually publish utilization rates of chargers in the United States publicly. 638 00:44:31,442 --> 00:44:38,417 So you can actually access that information for free and get an idea for what usage rates look like in different states and locations today. 639 00:44:38,417 --> 00:44:39,438 uh 640 00:44:39,438 --> 00:44:43,540 You know, our mission, like I said before, is to make EV charging a profitable business. 641 00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:46,981 know, 80 % of that problem is good locations and good prices. 642 00:44:46,981 --> 00:44:55,195 So if, if, if there's anything we can do to help, you know, listeners who are deploying chargers, operating chargers, or even acquiring chargers, we're seeing a lot of that 643 00:44:55,195 --> 00:45:04,639 activity of acquiring assets in the ground, uh, from private sector, you know, please let us know where we've been doing this sort of diligence now for at least five years of, of 644 00:45:04,639 --> 00:45:07,436 work in diligence and charging locations. 645 00:45:07,436 --> 00:45:10,085 and helping just make the money move in this space. 646 00:45:10,085 --> 00:45:13,586 And it needs to, especially with this regulatory market. 647 00:45:14,264 --> 00:45:16,484 Well, Rohan, thank you so much for coming on today. 648 00:45:16,484 --> 00:45:17,664 This is a great conversation. 649 00:45:17,664 --> 00:45:19,064 We'll have to have you on again soon. 650 00:45:19,064 --> 00:45:28,344 And I think just so many of the themes you hit on today were really things that are just so important to the space right now around, especially making it just easier for people to 651 00:45:28,344 --> 00:45:33,224 charge and having that better experience, but then also just kind of opening it up. 652 00:45:33,224 --> 00:45:36,204 And I think just for anyone listening, you are so right. 653 00:45:36,204 --> 00:45:37,044 Like think about it. 654 00:45:37,044 --> 00:45:40,664 If people open up there, just make it easier to charge. 655 00:45:40,664 --> 00:45:42,380 We're at such an early point. 656 00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:49,827 that you could become if you're in a different CPO, you could become the next Tesla supercharger, next really BP or Shell gas station. 657 00:45:49,827 --> 00:45:52,189 If everyone knows, okay, I don't really care about the price. 658 00:45:52,189 --> 00:45:53,090 I just know it works. 659 00:45:53,090 --> 00:45:54,812 They can get in, get out faster. 660 00:45:54,812 --> 00:45:56,293 Those start using your service. 661 00:45:56,293 --> 00:46:00,136 So with that, thanks so much for on and we'll have you on soon. 662 00:46:00,248 --> 00:46:02,310 Thanks so much Chase, appreciate it. 663 00:46:02,636 --> 00:46:03,437 Bye. 664 00:46:09,108 --> 00:46:14,348 Thanks for tuning into this episode of Grid Connections and huge thanks again to Rohan Puri for joining us. 665 00:46:14,348 --> 00:46:19,908 From shedding light on the critical shift from getting chargers in the ground to actually making them profitable. 666 00:46:19,908 --> 00:46:28,908 If you're in the business of deploying or managing EV infrastructure, there's never been a more important time to rethink site selection, dynamic pricing, and the user experience. 667 00:46:29,028 --> 00:46:34,928 If you enjoyed today's conversation, please share this episode with a colleague or friend who cares about the future of EV charging too. 668 00:46:34,928 --> 00:46:38,386 And don't forget to leave us a quick review on your favorite podcast app. 669 00:46:38,386 --> 00:46:40,957 It helps others discover the show too. 670 00:46:41,079 --> 00:46:42,850 Also stay ahead of the curve. 671 00:46:42,850 --> 00:46:48,807 Sign up for our newsletter using the link in the show notes to get the latest EV trends, insights, and updates from Great Connections. 672 00:46:48,807 --> 00:46:51,889 You can find that at greatconnections.fm slash newsletter. 673 00:46:51,889 --> 00:47:00,612 And if your team needs expert support navigating EV strategy, incentives, or infrastructure planning, head over to greatconnections.co to learn more about how Great 674 00:47:00,612 --> 00:47:04,328 Connections Consulting can help you with your next project. 675 00:47:04,328 --> 00:47:07,991 Until next time, this is the Great Connections Podcast signing off.