1 00:00:05,125 --> 00:00:12,252 Good morning Grid Connections listeners and welcome back to Grid Connections, the podcast where clean energy, electric vehicles, and the power grid converge. 2 00:00:12,252 --> 00:00:15,413 and as always brought to you by Grid Connections Consulting. 3 00:00:15,413 --> 00:00:23,695 In this episode, we sit down with Dawn Neville, the manager of electric transportation at PSEMG to explore how one of the largest utilities in the US is scaling electric vehicle 4 00:00:23,695 --> 00:00:27,336 infrastructure and accelerating the shift to cleaner transportation. 5 00:00:27,336 --> 00:00:36,639 From utility managed charging programs to equitable access for multi-unit dwellings and underserved communities, Dawn shares how PSEMG is approaching grid upgrades, customer 6 00:00:36,639 --> 00:00:40,070 engagement, and statewide collaboration in New Jersey. 7 00:00:40,126 --> 00:00:48,972 Whether you're in policy, infrastructure, or just curious about major utilities and what they're planning for millions of electric vehicles, this episode offers actual insights 8 00:00:48,972 --> 00:00:49,874 and inspiration. 9 00:00:49,874 --> 00:00:54,294 If you enjoyed this episode, share it with one friend or colleague who's passionate about clean transportation. 10 00:00:54,294 --> 00:00:57,654 And don't forget to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 11 00:00:57,714 --> 00:00:59,734 Plus, subscribe to our newsletter for more insights. 12 00:00:59,734 --> 00:01:01,714 Just follow the link in today's show notes. 13 00:01:01,714 --> 00:01:03,750 And with that, enjoy. 14 00:01:08,875 --> 00:01:10,463 Thank you very much for having me, Chase. 15 00:01:10,463 --> 00:01:12,680 I'm very excited about this opportunity. 16 00:01:13,466 --> 00:01:24,227 So Dawn, for those listening who may not be familiar with your utility, can you share a little bit about PSEmG and then also then kind of share about what your team specifically 17 00:01:24,227 --> 00:01:25,920 is doing at the utility? 18 00:01:26,367 --> 00:01:27,008 Absolutely. 19 00:01:27,008 --> 00:01:31,151 PSE &G is New Jersey's largest electric and gas distribution company. 20 00:01:31,151 --> 00:01:34,565 We're the only one that distributes both electric and gas. 21 00:01:34,565 --> 00:01:40,150 We have 2.4 million electric customers and 1.9 million gas customers. 22 00:01:40,150 --> 00:01:43,703 And we serve a territory that basically runs the New Jersey Turnpike. 23 00:01:43,703 --> 00:01:51,640 I like to say it's the beauty-polar sash from the left shoulder of Fort Lee down to the right hip of Trenton, Camden, and Burlington County. 24 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,221 um 25 00:01:55,089 --> 00:01:58,842 I myself am the manager of electric transportation at PSE &G. 26 00:01:58,842 --> 00:02:06,637 I run our customer facing programs where we help customers with the cost of installing infrastructure to charge electric vehicles. 27 00:02:06,637 --> 00:02:12,041 I'm also the company's subject matter expert with respect to electric vehicle technology. 28 00:02:13,392 --> 00:02:18,946 So I guess coming from the utility perspective, we've done a lot of mix things. 29 00:02:18,946 --> 00:02:26,743 It seems like a lot of it was just kind of that barrier to learn about electrification, learn how electric vehicles can become a net positive. 30 00:02:26,743 --> 00:02:37,031 But can you share maybe uh what you've learned being kind of introduced to electrification from the utility side and some of the things that you're excited about and kind of how 31 00:02:37,031 --> 00:02:43,176 that works with maybe the education you have to do possibly internally and even externally? 32 00:02:43,915 --> 00:02:49,977 Yeah, well to start with on that question, Chase, five years ago, five and a half years ago, I was asked to take this role. 33 00:02:49,977 --> 00:02:52,327 At that time, I could barely spell EV. 34 00:02:52,327 --> 00:02:59,369 ah Didn't really know anything about the technology, but I'm one of those people that loves to learn new things and loves change. 35 00:02:59,369 --> 00:03:02,070 Both of those are a little rare, especially the love change. 36 00:03:02,070 --> 00:03:12,153 uh But it's been a great chance for me to absolutely learn something new, starting from learning which hood ornaments were on which makes the manufacturers of cars. 37 00:03:12,153 --> 00:03:13,697 uh 38 00:03:13,697 --> 00:03:17,479 then learning levels of charging and learning just the basics. 39 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:29,696 From there, as we started to uh install chargers more frequently in our territory, teaching our utility what's different about electric charging versus just giving anybody 40 00:03:29,696 --> 00:03:42,957 else power and putting in processes for a brand new program in a utility that does 120 years worth of bringing power and has policies and procedures and 41 00:03:42,957 --> 00:03:47,237 processes that are hundreds of years old on purpose. 42 00:03:48,397 --> 00:04:00,917 So educating internally has been part of this role and it has been required to, you know, I'd like to say I had to build a startup company inside a 120 year old utility. 43 00:04:02,914 --> 00:04:04,285 I mean, I'm sure. 44 00:04:04,285 --> 00:04:15,415 I feel like in my own experience with talking about electrification, electric vehicles, there's usually some sort of moment where it really clicks for people. 45 00:04:15,616 --> 00:04:27,566 Have there been kind of a couple of things that especially you find that click for uh the utility and the people you work with internally, especially about why electrification, not 46 00:04:27,566 --> 00:04:29,796 necessarily that it's a positive thing. 47 00:04:29,796 --> 00:04:33,322 But it is kind part of that evolution of the utility industry. 48 00:04:33,803 --> 00:04:42,449 Yeah, I mean, on the personal side of people, you know, getting into an electric vehicle, whether it's their personal vehicle or it's one of our fleet vehicles, you know, used as 49 00:04:42,449 --> 00:04:44,340 part of the utilities day job. 50 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:53,306 um I think the misconceptions, they're getting better, but everybody initially has that fear of running out of fuel, running out of gas, running out of electric. 51 00:04:53,306 --> 00:05:01,462 And the first misconception, of course, is thinking you have to fuel your vehicle like you do your internal combustion engine or ice, you know, car. 52 00:05:01,462 --> 00:05:02,893 So 53 00:05:04,161 --> 00:05:11,084 just getting over the hurdle of our fleet staff understanding that they could do their job in an electric vehicle. 54 00:05:11,144 --> 00:05:12,925 We have had some great pilots. 55 00:05:12,925 --> 00:05:18,807 We've found some great ambassadors internally of professionals that were interested in going. 56 00:05:18,807 --> 00:05:26,131 Those innovative people, those people that like change, and they've been the ones to run our pilot program and get the data that we need. 57 00:05:26,131 --> 00:05:32,235 we have found some hiccups, things like the weather impact on the battery in the range of that vehicle. 58 00:05:32,235 --> 00:05:33,786 So we're working through all of those. 59 00:05:33,786 --> 00:05:37,978 Leadership is very focused on, you know, they're interested in this. 60 00:05:37,978 --> 00:05:46,173 They want to do it for both not only the climate change mitigation factor, but also the lower operating costs factor. 61 00:05:46,173 --> 00:05:50,746 But they need to make sure that we can deliver safe and reliable service. 62 00:05:50,746 --> 00:05:52,597 That's our primary business, right? 63 00:05:52,597 --> 00:05:55,078 We are in the business of keeping you in power. 64 00:05:55,139 --> 00:05:59,829 So um everybody is very concerned and 65 00:05:59,829 --> 00:06:04,669 I need to show them all of the data that proves that we can do our day job. 66 00:06:06,096 --> 00:06:12,116 So I guess, is that the concern with, I mean, we talked a lot of different charging. 67 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:22,175 To me it sounds like it is actually the concern, not necessarily from like the commercial side, all these like fast chargers going in, but it is actually the scale for residential 68 00:06:22,175 --> 00:06:24,656 and all these people adding this to their home. 69 00:06:24,656 --> 00:06:25,316 Is that correct? 70 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:30,916 Or is it a bit of both for trying to figure out, making sure that that reliability is there in place? 71 00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:32,129 It's absolutely both. 72 00:06:32,129 --> 00:06:33,650 I head of a two headed monster. 73 00:06:33,650 --> 00:06:39,852 I have a lot of little load and a small amount of huge load, right? 74 00:06:39,852 --> 00:06:43,333 So there are two different factors to be dealt with. 75 00:06:43,333 --> 00:06:50,374 We've done something at PSE &G that is super innovative, done by very few, if any other utilities. 76 00:06:50,375 --> 00:06:58,957 Most residential people can put in a charger without notifying their utility company, even though there's probably a rule that they're supposed to. 77 00:06:58,957 --> 00:07:04,497 But if they have ample panel space, their electrician will come in and put it in for them. 78 00:07:04,497 --> 00:07:16,137 So we have what we believe, what I've nicknamed ghost chargers, we believe we have 50 to 80,000 ghost chargers in our territory just based on vehicle registration data. 79 00:07:16,137 --> 00:07:18,777 So we're in the process of trying to find those. 80 00:07:18,777 --> 00:07:26,893 But the program that we have, which helps you pay for that electrician's installation costs, 20,000 customers have 81 00:07:26,893 --> 00:07:34,497 come in to get our make ready incentive for residential charger, every single one of those has been put through an engineering evaluation. 82 00:07:34,497 --> 00:07:35,678 That's very rare. 83 00:07:35,678 --> 00:07:43,943 But we put them through an engineering evaluation to ensure that we don't have a brownout problem on a week like this week has been. 84 00:07:44,123 --> 00:07:47,945 That we will have adequate service in the heat of the summer. 85 00:07:47,945 --> 00:07:54,721 And so um we've been investing in our last mile upgrades in order to handle that load. 86 00:07:54,721 --> 00:08:03,292 Now those 20,000 residential chargers represent an additional 200 megawatts um of load request on our territory. 87 00:08:03,292 --> 00:08:11,591 And again, most other utilities, they're not, you know, they're looking at it, but they're not as actively putting it through engineering eval as we are. 88 00:08:12,984 --> 00:08:14,805 That's an interesting call out. 89 00:08:14,805 --> 00:08:18,146 Can you kind of share why it was the addition of engineering? 90 00:08:18,146 --> 00:08:19,957 that partially due to safety? 91 00:08:19,957 --> 00:08:27,490 Is it also just to kind of help give PSCMG like the visibility of how many chargers are going in and how, or like to what scale? 92 00:08:27,490 --> 00:08:28,871 It's just kind of an interesting thing. 93 00:08:28,871 --> 00:08:35,133 I'm actually dealing with that at my own house, uh having to upgrade our panel for completely different reasons. 94 00:08:35,133 --> 00:08:38,094 But of course, part of that is going to be adding a charger as well. 95 00:08:38,355 --> 00:08:42,128 So I'm just kind of curious as to what, if you can share maybe a little of what 96 00:08:42,128 --> 00:08:44,906 played into that decision and kind of the logic in that. 97 00:08:45,259 --> 00:08:47,730 Yeah, it's a combination of reasons. 98 00:08:47,730 --> 00:08:51,272 um First and foremost, we're regulated by the Board of Public Utilities. 99 00:08:51,272 --> 00:08:53,254 That's New Jersey's utility commission. 100 00:08:53,254 --> 00:09:02,219 The Board of Public Utilities um set forth where we had a make ready program that we can offer to help customers with costs on both sides of the meter. 101 00:09:02,219 --> 00:09:11,194 So the utility side make ready, poles, wires, transformers, customer side make ready, which could be switch gear, conduits, trenching, parking rehab, right? 102 00:09:11,194 --> 00:09:13,725 All of that up to the charger stub. 103 00:09:13,949 --> 00:09:23,392 So because we were given that, we had some funding we could put towards that last mile upgrades with respect to additional EV load. 104 00:09:23,393 --> 00:09:33,957 Moreover, uh the tried and true engineers whose job it is for reliability were very concerned about all of this load getting added um and not done in the appropriate 105 00:09:33,957 --> 00:09:35,517 engineering fashion. 106 00:09:35,693 --> 00:09:44,879 um Meanwhile, we had a new vice president of customer experience who came in and helped us create what we call an Express Connect process. 107 00:09:44,879 --> 00:09:49,102 So this engineering evaluation is done in an average of five days or less. 108 00:09:49,102 --> 00:10:00,620 Now, the entire process takes two to three months, but the engineering about came down from a 27 day thing to a five day thing, because we predominantly do a desktop eval now 109 00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:05,815 and only go out to the site if it's absolutely unclear um in the desktop eval. 110 00:10:05,815 --> 00:10:16,254 So with that combination of things and bottom line, public service, electric and gas very much values the reliability that they provide. 111 00:10:16,254 --> 00:10:25,323 We have won the reliability award for the Mid-Atlantic Large Utilities 22 years, maybe 23 years in a row, I believe. 112 00:10:25,323 --> 00:10:29,807 It's very valuable to us to know that we give reliable service. 113 00:10:29,807 --> 00:10:32,939 as I was trying to build this startup to put in... 114 00:10:32,971 --> 00:10:37,206 you know it's going to be forty thousand residential charges before we're done uh... 115 00:10:37,206 --> 00:10:46,917 there was a lot of concern about the grade and the reliability so this was the compromise in the i'm really honestly the process was that you know stellarly put together was a 116 00:10:46,917 --> 00:10:50,891 brainstorm that brought together all different groups to come up with this 117 00:10:52,270 --> 00:10:53,761 Yeah, no, I think that's great. 118 00:10:53,761 --> 00:11:02,535 It's great to hear kind of that ongoing kind of finding ways to improve upon to really kind of make it to speed up the process and make it just even a better experience for 119 00:11:02,535 --> 00:11:03,646 those who apply. 120 00:11:03,646 --> 00:11:16,202 Can you share what um the actual incentive is for PSEMG uh users to kind of go through that process to get an incentive for putting an EV charger in? 121 00:11:16,333 --> 00:11:22,113 Yes, so we have three programs in our Clean Energy Future Electric Vehicle Program. 122 00:11:22,113 --> 00:11:23,193 We have three programs. 123 00:11:23,193 --> 00:11:33,533 For the residential program, we can offer you up to $1,500 rebate for the cost of the electrician to install a Level 2 charger. 124 00:11:33,533 --> 00:11:42,445 Now you're responsible for deciding if you want a NEMA 1450 outlet, you know, the 220 volt outlet in your house like your dryer gets connected to. 125 00:11:42,445 --> 00:11:46,285 or if you want it wall installed, direct wired inside your house, outside. 126 00:11:46,285 --> 00:11:48,285 You make all of those decisions. 127 00:11:48,285 --> 00:11:57,505 You hire your electrician and then you pay your electrician's invoice and we then can rebate you up to $1,500 for that cost. 128 00:11:57,685 --> 00:11:59,865 addition, yeah, right. 129 00:11:59,865 --> 00:12:01,825 Direct, direct rebate. 130 00:12:01,825 --> 00:12:12,151 In addition, if there is a service upgrade needed, if you need a larger service wire or a pole transformer, et cetera, et cetera, we can fund up to $5,000 of that. 131 00:12:12,151 --> 00:12:12,621 cost. 132 00:12:12,621 --> 00:12:15,702 um That's only needed. 133 00:12:15,783 --> 00:12:19,604 We thought 10 % is averaging really 12 % of the cases, right? 134 00:12:19,604 --> 00:12:25,887 But for the most part, our customers don't end up paying a penny um if that upgrade is needed. 135 00:12:25,887 --> 00:12:30,468 oh I think I have 12 cases out of 20,000 that that was not true. 136 00:12:30,468 --> 00:12:36,171 um So it's really lucrative helping you put a level two charger in your home. 137 00:12:36,171 --> 00:12:38,992 We also have mixed use commercial program. 138 00:12:38,992 --> 00:12:40,563 We call it MXU, right? 139 00:12:40,563 --> 00:12:41,911 Mixed use commercial. 140 00:12:41,911 --> 00:12:47,986 That's geared towards multi-unit dwellings, uh commercial entities, and government entities. 141 00:12:47,986 --> 00:12:50,409 And that is to help put level two chargers in. 142 00:12:50,409 --> 00:12:54,901 They can get a combination of rebates that adds up to $40,000. 143 00:12:54,901 --> 00:13:05,462 um $30,000 is on the customer side, installing, trenching the wires, the conduit, all of that, parking repair, permits, things like that. 144 00:13:05,462 --> 00:13:08,384 And then $10,000 is on the utility side for the make ready. 145 00:13:08,384 --> 00:13:09,549 um 146 00:13:09,549 --> 00:13:16,969 We also have a DC direct current fast charging program and those sites can get up to $150,000 rebate. 147 00:13:16,969 --> 00:13:17,949 And we're pretty excited. 148 00:13:17,949 --> 00:13:26,049 We have helped install over 500 DC fast chargers in our territory since this program started in January of 2021. 149 00:13:26,609 --> 00:13:31,989 We're almost at almost a 5,000 mixed use commercial chargers. 150 00:13:31,989 --> 00:13:36,489 And like I said, over 21,000 residential chargers. 151 00:13:37,966 --> 00:13:38,717 That's great. 152 00:13:38,717 --> 00:13:40,137 I'm kind of curious. 153 00:13:40,978 --> 00:13:46,422 That's awesome to hear for people who are part of the service territory. 154 00:13:46,422 --> 00:13:55,128 And so I guess to kind of bring it maybe internally, uh obviously, the incentives aren't there for doing the installation, but it's really interesting. 155 00:13:55,128 --> 00:13:57,450 You had mentioned a lot of your fleet has gone electric. 156 00:13:57,450 --> 00:14:06,148 Is there any of that you can kind of share of the internal and kind of whether that be kind of cost and other benefits that have been for PSE and G. 157 00:14:06,148 --> 00:14:08,629 by switching more of their vehicles to electric. 158 00:14:09,185 --> 00:14:16,030 You know, um we're committed to helping the state with its clean energy goals and we wanted to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. 159 00:14:16,030 --> 00:14:28,799 So we made a commitment publicly through EI Edison, you know, Electric Institute, which we're a member of that we would convert all of our passenger vehicles, 60 % of our medium 160 00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:33,523 and 90 % of our heavy duty vehicles by 2030. 161 00:14:33,523 --> 00:14:38,187 But with the heavy duty, the commitment was to anti-idle work systems, not the drive train. 162 00:14:38,187 --> 00:14:39,978 So just so you're aware of the distinction. 163 00:14:39,978 --> 00:14:51,138 uh But as part of that, we have been, you know, we want to do it in a very cost prudent matter because let's face it, our costs are borne by your electric rates, right? 164 00:14:51,138 --> 00:14:53,270 So we always look at cost prudency. 165 00:14:53,270 --> 00:14:57,863 So we basically predominantly are doing life cycle changes of our vehicles. 166 00:14:57,863 --> 00:15:05,359 So if it's time to replace X percent of our vehicles this year, we're looking to do that in electric fashion. 167 00:15:05,359 --> 00:15:07,457 The passenger vehicles have been great. 168 00:15:07,457 --> 00:15:11,360 that hasn't been any trouble, they're available, they meet our needs. 169 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,273 We are doing okay with some vans, we're doing okay with some box trucks. 170 00:15:16,273 --> 00:15:20,746 There really is not yet those heavy duty vehicles that are available. 171 00:15:20,746 --> 00:15:28,771 So like I said, those are going more towards anti-idle work systems so that the vehicle can operate without idling. 172 00:15:28,771 --> 00:15:30,932 But we've gotten some great data. 173 00:15:30,932 --> 00:15:41,712 that makes a lot of sense because that, I mean, there's a huge benefit to just, I don't think maybe people listening appreciate how often those kind of vehicles are right. 174 00:15:42,112 --> 00:15:52,072 And the effect that those have, and you're right, unfortunately there isn't a whole lot of options in the heavy duty side, or at least just yet, but I'm sorry, it sounds like you're 175 00:15:52,072 --> 00:15:53,412 gonna say a little bit more. 176 00:15:54,381 --> 00:16:04,949 oh I apologize, it's been great because we did ask for volunteers, so these people that have been driving these vehicles are EV enthusiasts or EV nerds as you like to call them. 177 00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:15,647 um They've been great, they've been real ambassadors and given us real world data because if they are having an issue, it's because they are having an issue and then we can address 178 00:16:15,647 --> 00:16:16,667 it and deal with 179 00:16:17,776 --> 00:16:19,216 No, that's great. 180 00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:24,816 I guess one of the things that we're kind of curious about is, I think you alluded to a little bit earlier. 181 00:16:24,816 --> 00:16:33,816 Obviously I kind of want to talk more about some of the maybe future forward looking things like V2G and some of these other technologies. 182 00:16:34,056 --> 00:16:39,996 But right now, one of the things is kind of like time of use. 183 00:16:39,996 --> 00:16:43,982 And I believe that PSE &G does have a program for that. 184 00:16:43,982 --> 00:16:53,317 I think you alluded to a little bit, but can you share a bit more about that and if there's any kind of data that your team is seeing about the positive impacts that that 185 00:16:53,317 --> 00:16:56,672 combined with electrification are having for your service territory? 186 00:16:56,991 --> 00:17:06,587 Yeah, so right now that board approved program has an off peak charging credit for residential customers and a demand charge rebate for the DCFC sites. 187 00:17:06,587 --> 00:17:18,154 So for the DCFC sites, it's been great because when a site first builds and maybe it's not as known and popular and doesn't have a high utilization, it's paying an effective rate 188 00:17:18,154 --> 00:17:20,606 that's a little bit higher because of those demand charges. 189 00:17:20,606 --> 00:17:22,529 So we were able to offer 190 00:17:22,529 --> 00:17:26,501 the customers a 75 % rebate on their demand charges for two years. 191 00:17:26,501 --> 00:17:33,875 And then a 50 % rebate has been ongoing since year three of our program and will continue as long as our program continues. 192 00:17:34,115 --> 00:17:41,119 So that has helped put those 500 DCFC chargers in because those companies are a for-profit business. 193 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,701 have to, they can't operate at a loss for long, right? 194 00:17:44,701 --> 00:17:51,665 So it's been able to bridge the gap of getting in a new site and letting it get known and popular and used, right? 195 00:17:51,665 --> 00:17:52,469 So. 196 00:17:52,469 --> 00:18:02,472 It helped break that Catch-22, it's like a vicious Catch-22 where you don't want to build a charger if there aren't cars, people aren't buying cars if there aren't chargers, right? 197 00:18:02,472 --> 00:18:04,392 So that's been very helpful. 198 00:18:04,473 --> 00:18:08,974 For the residential program, I have a very complicated off-peak charging credit. 199 00:18:08,974 --> 00:18:10,454 I wish it was simpler. 200 00:18:10,454 --> 00:18:15,316 It's not because it's meant to uh follow time of use rate practices, right? 201 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:17,737 So we emulate that off-line. 202 00:18:17,737 --> 00:18:19,021 um 203 00:18:19,021 --> 00:18:25,641 but customers can get up to 10 and a half cents off per kilowatt hour if they charge completely off peak. 204 00:18:25,721 --> 00:18:30,741 It's in essence, their off peak charging minus their on peak charging times a rebate. 205 00:18:30,741 --> 00:18:34,981 It's not exactly how it works, but we're trying to say, really go off peak. 206 00:18:34,981 --> 00:18:37,741 100 % off peak gets you the most rebate. 207 00:18:37,841 --> 00:18:45,181 We went from 80 % off peak charging to 91 % off peak charging when we started this off peak program. 208 00:18:45,181 --> 00:18:46,765 So it's clearly... 209 00:18:46,765 --> 00:18:48,785 induce the right charging behavior. 210 00:18:48,785 --> 00:18:50,465 we're very excited about it. 211 00:18:50,645 --> 00:19:00,725 This program will be sunsetting because with all of this information that we've gotten since 2021, we designed a new time of use with a three period rate that we're working to 212 00:19:00,725 --> 00:19:03,405 get rolled out starting in September. 213 00:19:03,405 --> 00:19:12,445 But that is designed to also promote off-peak, not only off-peak charging, but off-peak use of any other equipment like your dryer or your dishwasher or whatnot. 214 00:19:12,445 --> 00:19:15,231 And you can save a significant amount of money in that. 215 00:19:15,231 --> 00:19:18,789 is because of the data we got through the off-peak charging credit. 216 00:19:20,304 --> 00:19:21,544 That's great to hear. 217 00:19:21,544 --> 00:19:26,824 I guess you've kind of mentioned DCFC and you mentioned the residential. 218 00:19:26,824 --> 00:19:32,104 Are there any additional things, I guess, for like the commercial side or kind of look? 219 00:19:32,104 --> 00:19:34,564 mean, obviously, traditionally, they have much more of the radio. 220 00:19:34,564 --> 00:19:38,964 They're used to the kind of time of use and demand charges and that. 221 00:19:38,964 --> 00:19:44,456 But I'm just curious if there's any other things on that side around electrification you're able to share that make we haven't covered yet. 222 00:19:44,575 --> 00:19:55,243 Yeah, so, you know, when I started negotiating this uh program again, I was so new to EV and the two parts that I think are missing and I wish I could go back and have a way back 223 00:19:55,243 --> 00:19:57,335 time machine and do over again. 224 00:19:57,335 --> 00:20:00,247 One of them is rate relief for commercial customers, right? 225 00:20:00,247 --> 00:20:04,000 Level two commercial customers that didn't end up in this program. 226 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,923 The other one is a workplace charging program. 227 00:20:06,923 --> 00:20:10,535 Didn't end up in my program and the other utilities in the state have that. 228 00:20:10,603 --> 00:20:21,100 But with respect to the commercial customers, if they're level two chargers, which is what our program is providing, typically they're on, it's our GLP tariff, General Lighting and 229 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,421 Power Tariff. 230 00:20:22,421 --> 00:20:28,766 So it doesn't have a strong component that swings on peak off peak. 231 00:20:28,766 --> 00:20:37,452 So the impact isn't as strong as it is for those DCFC customers that are on our larger tariffs, higher rated tariffs. 232 00:20:37,452 --> 00:20:39,349 um 233 00:20:39,349 --> 00:20:44,854 We're in the process of trying to negotiate the next program and those two items that are missing are on my to-do list. 234 00:20:44,854 --> 00:20:47,199 So we'll give it a try. 235 00:20:47,792 --> 00:20:49,252 Yeah, I totally understand. 236 00:20:49,252 --> 00:20:50,472 I appreciate the transparency. 237 00:20:50,472 --> 00:20:54,872 guess, you know, we do have some people that listen that are in the utility space. 238 00:20:55,432 --> 00:21:07,012 Are you able to kind of just share what given kind of that hindsight 2020, you share what you would ideally like a commercial program to look like from the perspective of the 239 00:21:07,012 --> 00:21:13,128 utility or just maybe go a little bit more in depth of like, what that ideally would look like. 240 00:21:13,803 --> 00:21:23,989 Yes, so there are some requirements that the Board of Public Utilities, know, when we negotiated our filing, we go through that and the rate payer advocate who's very acutely 241 00:21:23,989 --> 00:21:29,522 aware of any increase in the electric rates and what impact that will have on the rate payers. 242 00:21:29,522 --> 00:21:35,885 So it's always a balance of what you can do, how big you can do it, how do you keep the cost prudent. 243 00:21:35,885 --> 00:21:42,325 ah For me, our DCFC requirements are that they be available 24-7. 244 00:21:42,325 --> 00:21:49,549 And I have some territories that aren't really, it's not really wise to open up 24 seven. 245 00:21:49,549 --> 00:21:54,482 They're subject to vandalism and, maybe, you crime and things like that. 246 00:21:54,482 --> 00:22:05,137 And so I like some relief on a case by case basis, even if possible on that requirement, um, because that does impact customers, you know, might have a circle K in a zip code in a 247 00:22:05,137 --> 00:22:12,353 neighborhood that shouldn't be open 24 seven, you know, um, as an example, and they can't participate in this program. 248 00:22:12,353 --> 00:22:13,974 because that's a requirement. 249 00:22:13,974 --> 00:22:25,303 Another requirement is that the commercial customers, unless they're a government entity or multi-unit dwelling, so any regular commercial dentist office, as an example, has to 250 00:22:25,303 --> 00:22:35,290 make that available to the public 24-7 as well, and that's not always feasible or, you know, it's a little bit limiting. 251 00:22:35,290 --> 00:22:39,273 So I'd like the ability to have some relief on those two criteria. 252 00:22:40,248 --> 00:22:41,719 That's actually really interesting. 253 00:22:41,719 --> 00:22:50,432 I can definitely, that's an odd balance because I can definitely say from my own personal experience, I definitely charged up places where I was like, why is this open? 254 00:22:50,432 --> 00:22:53,674 And at least some of that was maybe I was on a road trip and it was kind of late at night anyway. 255 00:22:53,674 --> 00:22:58,732 Um, but it is that that's an interesting way. 256 00:22:58,732 --> 00:23:02,437 Cause once people know that there is one, they kind of expect it to be there. 257 00:23:02,437 --> 00:23:09,390 I guess, is there anything you've kind of thought about as far as like how you message that or how that would be? 258 00:23:09,390 --> 00:23:17,476 From kind of the side of the driver, I mean, I don't know, maybe you just reflect that it is more like business hours, but if someone kind of rolls up at like 10 or 1 p.m. 259 00:23:17,476 --> 00:23:19,969 because they're used to charging there and then they're kind of surprised. 260 00:23:19,969 --> 00:23:24,482 And admittedly, this is kind of like a one off use case, but just just kind of curious. 261 00:23:24,653 --> 00:23:28,775 Yeah, I think the apps that are out there right now are very, very robust. 262 00:23:28,775 --> 00:23:33,490 um You know, I don't want to give a plug, but I'm going to say plug shares my favorite app, right? 263 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:37,663 So personally, um and it tells you if it's open or not. 264 00:23:37,663 --> 00:23:41,736 tells you if there's, you know, there's eight ones, but only two are available. 265 00:23:41,736 --> 00:23:44,278 Like you, so you know that you're going to pull up and share the power. 266 00:23:44,278 --> 00:23:49,112 Once you're an electric vehicle driver, if you're an EV nerd, you know all this stuff, right? 267 00:23:49,112 --> 00:23:50,633 I think that 268 00:23:50,635 --> 00:23:56,465 that case that you just said, if it's a place you're used to going to, well, if you're used to going to, you know, it closes at 10. 269 00:23:56,465 --> 00:24:01,084 ah It's kind of like your gas station or your liquor store, you know, when they open and close, right? 270 00:24:01,084 --> 00:24:05,107 So uh you'll factor that into your use pattern. 271 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,360 I, uh, I agree with it. 272 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:18,180 I will just give a little bit of pushback and this, is nothing like I totally well intentioned and just inventing personal experience I've had recently where, um, I agree 273 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:21,080 with you plug share and a couple of the new apps are really great. 274 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:30,440 I've just seen anecdotally recently a lot of like first time and like, once again, it's, think one of things I have to kind of remind and talk to a lot of the people that even 275 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,240 listen to this, the EV nerds where it's like, well, there's a lot of people who are new to this. 276 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,364 They're kind of coming in. 277 00:24:35,364 --> 00:24:36,955 And they have kind of run into these issues. 278 00:24:36,955 --> 00:24:43,330 mean, I was at a supercharger a couple of weeks ago and this guy in a Rivian was really nice, but he just couldn't figure out why it was working. 279 00:24:43,330 --> 00:24:47,553 And I kind of had it, I was like, well, this is an older one and technically only works with Tesla's. 280 00:24:47,553 --> 00:24:49,034 It actually doesn't work with Rivians. 281 00:24:49,034 --> 00:24:50,806 He was nice about it, but he had no idea. 282 00:24:50,806 --> 00:25:01,033 And so it's just like these kind of weird, and obviously this is a growing pain thing and there may not be a perfect uh solution for all of these, but it is just one of those 283 00:25:01,033 --> 00:25:02,224 things where. 284 00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:09,129 The 24-7 requirement is like, it's a hard one to figure out because I think it's such a good intention thing. 285 00:25:09,129 --> 00:25:17,220 But you're totally right that there's also these experiences that just are subpar as to describe it. 286 00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:20,504 Yeah, this is probably a place that just shouldn't be open all those times. 287 00:25:20,673 --> 00:25:21,854 I have two thoughts on that. 288 00:25:21,854 --> 00:25:24,525 One is the rest stops on your highways. 289 00:25:24,525 --> 00:25:26,967 They've got security lighting, all of that. 290 00:25:26,967 --> 00:25:31,070 So they are 24-7, so you can always go there even if you need to charge at 2 in the morning. 291 00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:33,301 And they're meant for driving through the state, right? 292 00:25:33,301 --> 00:25:35,102 Long-term driving anyway. 293 00:25:35,142 --> 00:25:38,924 The other one is anything new has its hiccups, right? 294 00:25:38,924 --> 00:25:40,105 Getting something new. 295 00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:46,251 My analogy for going into an EV, even though I was an adult, is when I learned to drive. 296 00:25:46,251 --> 00:25:57,337 Because before I got my permit at 16, I didn't think anything about my parents gas tank gauge or whether there was windshield wiper fluid in the bottle or whether I had a snow 297 00:25:57,337 --> 00:25:59,318 scraper in the car when I needed it. 298 00:25:59,318 --> 00:26:00,501 I didn't think of that. 299 00:26:00,501 --> 00:26:01,329 And I was 16. 300 00:26:01,329 --> 00:26:04,471 I should have maybe been thinking of that, but I wasn't. 301 00:26:04,471 --> 00:26:07,592 Once you start driving, these are all things you learn. 302 00:26:07,753 --> 00:26:11,835 Sometimes the hard way you might run out of gas, you might not have a scraper. 303 00:26:11,835 --> 00:26:15,477 And I feel like transitioning to an EV is somewhat like that. 304 00:26:15,477 --> 00:26:23,509 So, um but most for the most part after two or three months, people are in love with their EV and they understand where and how to charge it. 305 00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:28,287 you know, I think there's that's just a growing pain sort of to go that way. 306 00:26:28,784 --> 00:26:30,364 No, for sure. 307 00:26:30,724 --> 00:26:33,604 And I can appreciate the candor just being open about it. 308 00:26:33,604 --> 00:26:40,524 It's just, I think inherently you can only solve for so many problems and there is kind of a net benefit of just getting the stuff in the ground a lot of the time. 309 00:26:41,224 --> 00:26:49,604 One other thing I want to ask you about is kind of how you kind of mentioned there's now a new phase of this that you're kind of working through to get into it. 310 00:26:49,604 --> 00:26:51,280 I know, I believe, 311 00:26:51,280 --> 00:27:01,560 It was this existing phase where you kind of had the goal to energize over, believe, 45,000 EV charters and kind of like adding roughly like 700 each month was kind of the 312 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:02,280 goal. 313 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:10,480 Can you just explain maybe some of the challenges your team faced in scaling up the infrastructure and maybe how they're being addressed if we haven't covered that yet? 314 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:19,160 And then if there's anything like, once again, count the examples of hindsight 2020 that just looking at it like, okay, this is just one of those things that we kind of need to 315 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,888 tweak for this reason to. 316 00:27:20,888 --> 00:27:23,883 Make sure just moving forward, even works even better. 317 00:27:24,215 --> 00:27:27,888 Sure, mean, who knew I would be registering 700 customers a day? 318 00:27:27,888 --> 00:27:35,465 I, in hindsight, didn't sit down and do the math and say 40,000 divided by how many years divided by 12 years, months in a year. 319 00:27:35,465 --> 00:27:36,544 I didn't realize that. 320 00:27:36,544 --> 00:27:42,358 you know, getting that pipeline, doing the marketing and education and outreach to get that pipeline. 321 00:27:42,358 --> 00:27:50,855 Again, like based on the registered data, we have so many customers that maybe aren't aware and just aren't coming and getting that 1500, but they're definitely going to, you 322 00:27:50,855 --> 00:27:51,975 know, electric. 323 00:27:52,345 --> 00:27:56,849 So that has been, had to learn about marketing and customer education that I didn't know. 324 00:27:56,849 --> 00:27:59,932 um Dealing with the data. 325 00:27:59,932 --> 00:28:03,636 So our board order requires that the customer submit their charging data. 326 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:09,981 um And along the way, we started to work with vehicle telematics companies so that we could get more than just charger data. 327 00:28:09,981 --> 00:28:18,541 We could get Teslas to join because the Tesla, until gen three, the Tesla charger wasn't a smart charger, which was a requirement for our program. 328 00:28:18,541 --> 00:28:31,381 um So now we are collecting vehicle telematics and we have a lot of Tesla customers taking advantage of that off-peak Because when we started, you the data was, you can't even use 329 00:28:31,381 --> 00:28:36,696 AMI data, even though we didn't have AMI when I first started this program, but we were going to be putting it in. 330 00:28:36,696 --> 00:28:42,240 But it's behind the whole house, so you can't distinguish whether you're using your dryer, you know, whatever. 331 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,133 It's a muddied piece of data and I understood that. 332 00:28:45,133 --> 00:28:45,853 I'm an engineer. 333 00:28:45,853 --> 00:28:47,425 I came in and I said, that makes sense. 334 00:28:47,425 --> 00:28:48,247 I get that. 335 00:28:48,247 --> 00:28:52,220 So let's start getting the charging data and then let's start getting the vehicle telematics data. 336 00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:59,107 Well, it's so nascent that its data quality is worse than if I had taken the muddied AMI data. 337 00:28:59,107 --> 00:29:00,127 I didn't know that going in. 338 00:29:00,127 --> 00:29:03,150 That's a hard lesson learned after the fact. 339 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:15,961 So we have done an awful lot of effort, work, IT infrastructure building, license fees, and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears for my poor team because the data quality is... 340 00:29:16,447 --> 00:29:17,697 It's just not there yet. 341 00:29:17,697 --> 00:29:24,529 And if we talk with the EVSE companies or even the vehicle telematics companies, it's not their primary concern. 342 00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:28,320 So why do you need that high level quality data? 343 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,841 We need that meter revenue quality. 344 00:29:30,841 --> 00:29:40,364 Like, unfortunately, that's a requirement for us, which is why that off-peak credit was offline um and why anything that isn't offline, you know, any time of use rate is going to 345 00:29:40,364 --> 00:29:41,504 have to be whole house. 346 00:29:41,504 --> 00:29:41,864 Right. 347 00:29:41,864 --> 00:29:45,069 So, um so those are things that 348 00:29:45,069 --> 00:29:54,889 As I'm negotiating the next program, we're trying to say, listen, let's go ahead and use the AMI data instead of getting all of this other data that costs so much, is so difficult 349 00:29:54,889 --> 00:29:57,749 to get, and isn't any more accurate. 350 00:29:58,249 --> 00:30:01,889 So whether or not I'm successful with that, I don't know. 351 00:30:03,024 --> 00:30:04,104 And now that's interesting. 352 00:30:04,104 --> 00:30:04,684 I'm kind curious. 353 00:30:04,684 --> 00:30:09,964 This might be a little different wheelhouse to what you work in your realm. 354 00:30:09,964 --> 00:30:14,184 But I'm kind of curious if PSE and GE is kind of like looking at the smart panel space. 355 00:30:14,184 --> 00:30:19,243 Obviously, that's kind of a larger view of all the energy usage in a home. 356 00:30:19,243 --> 00:30:26,064 But it seems kind of correlated that can kind of help with kind of filling in those gaps and help maybe answer some of those questions for you today. 357 00:30:26,451 --> 00:30:27,202 Absolutely. 358 00:30:27,202 --> 00:30:41,173 So I work in the Clean Energy Solutions Group and we have three programs, this little tiny EV program, a very nice Clean Energy jobs program, and then any humongous, very robust 359 00:30:41,394 --> 00:30:43,516 energy efficiency program. 360 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:48,119 So I joke, I'm the little tiny redheaded stepchild sometimes. 361 00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:50,702 ah So that's energy efficiency. 362 00:30:50,702 --> 00:30:55,179 offer dozens of products to customers, whether residential or commercial. 363 00:30:55,179 --> 00:30:58,331 We have smart thermostats. 364 00:30:58,331 --> 00:31:11,560 We are offering now, starting just this month, a demand response uh program where if you're willing to work with your smart thermostat on a week like this, you can get uh some 365 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,661 incentives for that. 366 00:31:12,661 --> 00:31:16,924 um You can get your home weatherization assessment for free. 367 00:31:16,924 --> 00:31:24,949 You can then get information on what it would cost to do whatever they recommend and how you can pay that on your bill over time. 368 00:31:24,949 --> 00:31:25,820 all sorts of things. 369 00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:32,279 There's uh comfort partners, which we help low income families, you know, make sure their homes are more comfortable. 370 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:35,623 um Our goal, we have a vision at public service. 371 00:31:35,623 --> 00:31:43,443 Our vision is where customers use less energy and that it's delivered uh safe, reliable and clean. 372 00:31:44,954 --> 00:31:45,654 Yeah, that's great. 373 00:31:45,654 --> 00:31:49,006 And I think that makes a lot of sense because that seems to be kind of a universal thing. 374 00:31:49,006 --> 00:31:56,661 think that the law utilities, the electric vehicle components, probably the newest thing, but it does kind of fit into all these existing programs, especially around energy 375 00:31:56,661 --> 00:31:57,891 efficiency. 376 00:31:58,011 --> 00:32:11,029 I guess kind of talking about that topic, are there ways looking at to kind of look at beyond just a single home, but leveraging and this I think kind of gets into our vehicle 377 00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:12,219 to grid kind of conversation. 378 00:32:12,219 --> 00:32:13,680 But how do. 379 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,780 more efficiently operate the grid as a whole. 380 00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:27,400 And then by seeing kind of what EV charging patterns are in usage, and then maybe what the next future step is, is like how realistic or how soon it is to kind of get that vehicle 381 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,480 to load component involved in all of this. 382 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:37,980 Cause it still seems very early days for that part of it, but it seems like as kind of the larger part of the total grid view, there's a lot of opportunities, especially kind of 383 00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:42,240 going to like wave timeout around the brownouts or any like just being more proactive. 384 00:32:42,244 --> 00:32:45,332 with just all these vehicles coming onto the grid. 385 00:32:45,985 --> 00:32:53,470 Yeah, one of the biggest things about vehicle charging is it really is for the most part something that you can manage around time. 386 00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:57,732 Maybe not if you have a really large duty cycle and your bus is running 24-7. 387 00:32:57,732 --> 00:33:08,268 But for the most part, there is the capability of doing managed charging and peak shaving is a benefit not only to the individual customer because their rates were lower and 388 00:33:08,268 --> 00:33:12,919 they're paying less for an entire year following that, but it's a benefit 389 00:33:12,919 --> 00:33:20,415 to downward pressure for all customers and it's a benefit to us that we don't need to build to that really high peak. 390 00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:22,417 You know, we can build to a more reasonable peak. 391 00:33:22,417 --> 00:33:25,209 So peak shaving happens in so many ways. 392 00:33:25,209 --> 00:33:27,001 One of course is the software. 393 00:33:27,001 --> 00:33:38,330 You know, any sort of fleet needs to have that right software, not needs, they should want the software to manage their charging again because it saves them money in the long run um 394 00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:40,792 and it lowers what we have to do to build the grid. 395 00:33:40,792 --> 00:33:42,213 um 396 00:33:42,463 --> 00:33:44,104 So that's just the software. 397 00:33:44,104 --> 00:33:54,990 Then of course, know, energy storage is a huge capability of peak shaving, whether you have solar on your facility and whether you use that bi-directional battery, if it's 398 00:33:54,990 --> 00:34:01,724 bi-directional, it's either to vehicle the building for now or just um peak shaving. 399 00:34:01,724 --> 00:34:03,605 Ultimately vehicle the grid would be great. 400 00:34:03,605 --> 00:34:06,116 We're still in a regulatory hold pattern on that. 401 00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:11,753 However, we are partnering with the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. 402 00:34:11,753 --> 00:34:22,337 on some grant projects that are called Eco Hub sites and there five school districts that are going to put in storage, solar and vehicle charging. 403 00:34:22,337 --> 00:34:25,999 um we're going to sort of pilot a vehicle to grid. 404 00:34:25,999 --> 00:34:36,063 It's not actually a vehicle to grid, but we're going to pilot it to get the data so that we can get some information that can help us move forward and help the BPU move forward, 405 00:34:36,063 --> 00:34:40,353 give them the information they need to approve that going forward. 406 00:34:40,353 --> 00:34:47,115 We're also in our medium heavy duty filing, we submitted in February and we're currently in discovery on. 407 00:34:47,115 --> 00:34:51,777 We proposed uh technical trials to include storage and a vehicle. 408 00:34:51,777 --> 00:34:54,538 We said vehicle to anything V to X. 409 00:34:54,558 --> 00:34:59,750 We will probably, it's not heavily funded, so we probably do vehicle to building. 410 00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:03,091 But never say never, I don't know for sure yet. 411 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:13,163 Well, and I think that's a great call out that does kind of highlight in a lot of ways how this is still early days for this program because we can't even always agree on what the 412 00:35:13,163 --> 00:35:19,364 correct term is for the use case, whether it's vehicle to grid, vehicle to load, vehicle to X, vehicle to building. 413 00:35:19,364 --> 00:35:26,236 uh But I think there's clearly a good insight and where there's kind of a good place to get to. 414 00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:31,148 I'm curious around the actual product bit and availability. 415 00:35:31,148 --> 00:35:32,130 um 416 00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:42,685 I think a lot of, especially on kind of like utility and also like city to county size, there have been a lot of like electric uh bus, especially like electric school bus and 417 00:35:42,685 --> 00:35:45,966 grid backup because you can use them in the summer or to browse. 418 00:35:45,966 --> 00:35:51,849 Like that use case makes a lot of sense to me, but that is kind of like one specific use case. 419 00:35:51,849 --> 00:36:00,412 I'm kind of curious if there's any examples that your team's thinking about or interested in that either seems 420 00:36:00,622 --> 00:36:01,813 I guess there's a lot of questions. 421 00:36:01,813 --> 00:36:07,578 First, um what are you finding issues with actually finding the right products? 422 00:36:07,578 --> 00:36:17,205 Like there are only a few electric vehicles, even in the light duty space that actually offers vehicle to create technology and then you have to have the right charger with it. 423 00:36:17,205 --> 00:36:25,092 So I'm just kind of curious like how that impacts what your team actually wants to do with these pilots and then what that kind of future state looks like or what you want to work 424 00:36:25,092 --> 00:36:26,052 towards. 425 00:36:26,271 --> 00:36:35,525 Yeah, so because the state, the BPU has oh mandated a public-private partnership in electrification, we stop at the charger stub. 426 00:36:35,525 --> 00:36:39,247 So we're not involved in any chargers and any vehicles. 427 00:36:39,247 --> 00:36:43,008 However, my entire team are the innovative type of people. 428 00:36:43,008 --> 00:36:45,259 That's why they came to work on something innovative. 429 00:36:45,259 --> 00:36:54,013 So we try to stay as abreast as possible because we can help inform customers, plus we learn more and it's just all good. 430 00:36:54,381 --> 00:37:04,648 um So, I'm familiar with what there is and isn't out there and I um think, I hate to say it's a couple years out anyway until it's normal. 431 00:37:04,648 --> 00:37:16,036 So, I think what's out there is perfect for baby steps and pilot studies and technical trials and you know, the more we can get those funded, the better because they cost money 432 00:37:16,036 --> 00:37:21,489 but right now there is some limitations to some of the grant funding that used to be available, right? 433 00:37:21,489 --> 00:37:24,107 So, um we're all navigating that. 434 00:37:24,107 --> 00:37:25,073 as well. 435 00:37:27,024 --> 00:37:38,541 Do you find also from a, I feel like also a big part of the vehicle to grid conversation is obviously it make a vehicle to grid, especially, but if you're doing like vehicle to 436 00:37:38,541 --> 00:37:43,284 building, it's a pretty clear, like, okay, here's the battery and these cars and it's going into this building. 437 00:37:43,284 --> 00:37:52,380 Once you start getting to the grid or a larger entity, it can, seems like there's such a large ineffective data component needed. 438 00:37:52,528 --> 00:37:55,011 Do you feel like that that's still a big part of it? 439 00:37:55,011 --> 00:37:58,575 Is that kind of why you guys are starting with the building in this example first? 440 00:37:58,575 --> 00:38:07,616 And I guess I'm kind of curious as someone who's like actually doing some of this, what are the things you would like to see either from a data provider or really the market as 441 00:38:07,616 --> 00:38:13,112 far as the products needed to fill kind of these gaps to make it more feasible for more projects? 442 00:38:13,517 --> 00:38:17,317 Yeah, think, you know, ours is a regulatory holdup, right? 443 00:38:17,317 --> 00:38:22,217 We have for 2022 isn't coming out for up for forever. 444 00:38:22,417 --> 00:38:28,257 And and so that that just limits what we can and can't do regardless. 445 00:38:28,637 --> 00:38:38,637 But I would love to see, you know, listen, I would personally love to put on my own home some solar and a wall battery and a bidirectional charger. 446 00:38:38,637 --> 00:38:41,207 And so if I think just personally. 447 00:38:41,207 --> 00:38:47,939 And then if I say to myself, you tell one friend and they tell two friends and so on and so on, right? 448 00:38:49,399 --> 00:38:52,400 I think it would be ideal for all of us. 449 00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:57,522 you know, I don't want to get political, but weather events are what they are. 450 00:38:57,522 --> 00:39:05,104 you know, um I think any kind of resiliency we can have at every individual's level is, I think that's great. 451 00:39:05,104 --> 00:39:10,157 And I think it also helps long-term with the grid stability and long-term with grid development. 452 00:39:10,157 --> 00:39:21,631 um We have these data centers that want a lot of power and so anything we can do to keep everybody's grid the size it needs to be, that would be great I think. 453 00:39:23,012 --> 00:39:31,857 I guess that lends to kind of like, are there any things your team's kind of doing around micro grids or kind of trying to help with that resiliency? 454 00:39:32,452 --> 00:39:42,804 I realized that also kind of plays in the vehicle, the great vehicle picks kind of component of it, but I'm curious ah if that's kind of come up in conversations of how your 455 00:39:42,804 --> 00:39:49,592 team is looking to kind of leverage that and do more with ah trying to increase that reliability or. 456 00:39:49,592 --> 00:39:54,939 If it's not microgrids, maybe what are some of the technologies that your team is really focused on? 457 00:39:55,361 --> 00:40:00,588 Or is finding along this kind of path to electrification to help with reliability? 458 00:40:01,409 --> 00:40:11,932 Yeah, so we've had a couple of projects, a couple of different clients that have done microgrid work and we are excited and supportive and working with innovative internal 459 00:40:11,932 --> 00:40:13,792 contacts to make those happen. 460 00:40:13,792 --> 00:40:18,053 Like I said, these five eco hubs, they'll be basically microgrids. 461 00:40:18,334 --> 00:40:24,235 So we're in the process literally of just the first site visits for those. 462 00:40:24,475 --> 00:40:31,085 And um we have collaborated with, we have one school system, inner city school system that 463 00:40:31,085 --> 00:40:36,647 um Their school is also the cooling center and the warming center during storms. 464 00:40:36,647 --> 00:40:39,439 So they put in the bi-directional technology. 465 00:40:39,439 --> 00:40:41,049 We haven't had to use it yet. 466 00:40:41,049 --> 00:40:48,653 um So I don't have any data on that, but we're happy to collaborate with customers that do that. 467 00:40:48,653 --> 00:40:52,254 I think what's happening right now is it's cost prohibitive in a lot of ways. 468 00:40:52,254 --> 00:40:54,615 um It's an initial investment. 469 00:40:54,615 --> 00:40:58,303 Now, to begin with, the vehicles are still more costly, right? 470 00:40:58,303 --> 00:41:05,339 especially if you're talking about buses and trucks, um then the chargers that are bidirectional are more costly. 471 00:41:05,339 --> 00:41:12,424 And then you might need panel changes and system changes in your switching station and things like that. 472 00:41:12,424 --> 00:41:15,267 to get into it is more costly. 473 00:41:15,267 --> 00:41:22,292 right now I'm thinking that unless there are more grants coming, they're going to be fewer. 474 00:41:22,292 --> 00:41:23,529 m 475 00:41:23,529 --> 00:41:24,930 and limited right now. 476 00:41:24,930 --> 00:41:29,575 But anything that anybody wants to do innovative, we're happy to participate with. 477 00:41:29,575 --> 00:41:31,657 First off, we're always going to give someone power. 478 00:41:31,657 --> 00:41:34,259 If someone asks for the power, we're going to give it to them. 479 00:41:34,259 --> 00:41:36,241 That's our mandate, right? 480 00:41:36,402 --> 00:41:44,729 But if they're doing something innovative, then we want to also work together with them, learn while they learn, and help us go forward with future programs. 481 00:41:45,330 --> 00:41:48,893 I know I didn't really answer you, but that's kind of... 482 00:41:50,085 --> 00:42:00,797 I realized it's kind of a big question as it is, but I guess it kind of is kind of talking about the longer term projects. 483 00:42:00,797 --> 00:42:04,404 mean, we are kind of dealing with the early days of the vehicle to grid. 484 00:42:04,404 --> 00:42:13,229 We're kind of going through like, I don't know if you want to call it phase two or phase three of EVs on the grid and kind of moving from more of a reactive to now more and more 485 00:42:13,229 --> 00:42:15,800 proactive with that kind of integration. 486 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:25,957 ah I'd be curious to just kind learn more about your long-term, your team's long-term plans for integrating EVs into the grid and just maybe how you envision the role of 487 00:42:25,957 --> 00:42:33,122 utilities evolving as more and more transportation electrifies, whether it be V2G or not, obviously. 488 00:42:33,547 --> 00:42:44,896 Yes, so the big thing is with now looking to incentivize people to do medium heavy duty vehicles, trucks, buses and fleets, this is a higher load, right? 489 00:42:44,896 --> 00:42:52,853 So we're going from, uh maybe it was an 18 kilowatt charger, used to be a seven, then it was an 11, now it's like an 18 kilowatt charger. 490 00:42:52,853 --> 00:43:02,829 We're going to one, two, three megawatts, maybe even more, that the collective charging power load is for these truck centers or for fleet locations. 491 00:43:02,829 --> 00:43:06,109 That is a distinctly different team, right? 492 00:43:06,109 --> 00:43:09,049 So our distribution engineers are over here. 493 00:43:09,049 --> 00:43:17,229 Now we're looking at asset strategy team and a much higher load level at a much longer term evaluation for that. 494 00:43:17,229 --> 00:43:18,549 I'm not going to get that in five days. 495 00:43:18,549 --> 00:43:19,889 I'm going to tell you that right now. 496 00:43:19,889 --> 00:43:21,769 It's not going to happen, right? 497 00:43:21,769 --> 00:43:26,229 It's more like that many months probably, to be fair and honest. 498 00:43:26,229 --> 00:43:29,709 So there's that going on with the high power needs. 499 00:43:30,209 --> 00:43:32,489 There is also 500 00:43:32,619 --> 00:43:38,731 you know we want to do this program we really are excited about it but um... 501 00:43:40,192 --> 00:43:50,186 again i've got to get through the systems where a lot of times the customers aren't even and they don't own the property at the prospecting so to do an engineering evaluation on a 502 00:43:50,186 --> 00:43:53,618 property you don't know those are those are things that are held up uh... 503 00:43:53,618 --> 00:44:01,131 but our future plans are that you know we are norc airport port norc port elizabeth 504 00:44:01,131 --> 00:44:02,111 the term pike, right? 505 00:44:02,111 --> 00:44:08,563 We are really anxious and excited to help customers convert those trucks to zero emission. 506 00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:13,584 To be honest, we're fuel agnostic, but I work in the electric company, so I'm helping with the electrification, right? 507 00:44:13,584 --> 00:44:17,626 em But um it's really important. 508 00:44:17,626 --> 00:44:22,827 know, the emissions really do impact students' health on electric, you know, on school buses. 509 00:44:22,827 --> 00:44:30,419 um We have lot of particulate matter and high, you know, asthma and poor air quality rates in those, you know, right in that 510 00:44:30,773 --> 00:44:33,254 Newark, Kearney, Elizabeth area. 511 00:44:33,254 --> 00:44:38,007 And I think it's 8,000 trucks a day go in and out of Port Norwick and Port Elizabeth. 512 00:44:38,007 --> 00:44:41,239 So um we're committed to helping. 513 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,300 We really want to do what we can to help our customers electrify. 514 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:49,043 That barrier of that initial cost to get into it is huge. 515 00:44:49,043 --> 00:44:51,344 So we'd like to help with that. 516 00:44:51,344 --> 00:44:57,438 We're negotiating right now, as I said, with the BPU and with the rate payer advocate to try and bring a program. 517 00:44:57,438 --> 00:44:59,979 Now, that program is very small. 518 00:44:59,979 --> 00:45:05,393 because there is such a cost concern right now and affordability is of such high focus. 519 00:45:05,674 --> 00:45:08,937 So it's a small program, but it's a toe in the water. 520 00:45:08,937 --> 00:45:11,449 It's uh step in the right direction. 521 00:45:11,449 --> 00:45:15,382 It's gonna get us information to inform what we should do going forward. 522 00:45:15,382 --> 00:45:23,409 So it's an iterative step and I'm just happy to be able to take, I'm looking forward to being able to take that first step. 523 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:25,760 No, that's great. 524 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:33,820 I think actually there's a couple of things you mentioned into that that I don't think get enough attention or discussion around electrification. 525 00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:37,340 Because I mean, say what you will think what you will about global warming, climate change. 526 00:45:37,340 --> 00:45:38,280 There's good data for that. 527 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:45,560 But I understand it can be really hard to kind of get bought into something that's so large. 528 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:53,776 But what you talked about right there with not only electric school buses for children, I'd to be pretty clear in that those kinds of emissions can have. 529 00:45:53,776 --> 00:46:02,436 I think the big thing that just doesn't get enough attention is the fact that brake dust is so incredibly toxic and bad. 530 00:46:02,436 --> 00:46:10,456 And you can really easily tie that to areas of where it can be like people live near highways, like asthma rates and all these other things can be pretty highly and pretty 531 00:46:10,456 --> 00:46:12,696 easily tied to certain things like that. 532 00:46:12,696 --> 00:46:18,156 And that's where like lot of education, you get root-grain breaking, you don't have that, or pretty drastically reduce it. 533 00:46:18,156 --> 00:46:20,756 I think a really great kind of call out. 534 00:46:20,756 --> 00:46:22,896 And I think that the things that 535 00:46:22,896 --> 00:46:30,056 have been missing from a lot of these conversations, especially when you're talking about like a utility, not in your case, but like a lot of these conversations where they lead 536 00:46:30,056 --> 00:46:40,576 with like a climate change conversation, which sure, but I don't think it's people buying in, but if you can say, hey, there's a bunch of them going from like, in like your time 537 00:46:40,576 --> 00:46:50,256 about the Porsche authority or the, you talk to a pretty clear local impact to people and the buy-in, I feel like if there's a 180 and people are like, oh, okay, that makes a lot 538 00:46:50,256 --> 00:46:50,536 of sense. 539 00:46:50,536 --> 00:46:52,156 We should do that. 540 00:46:53,323 --> 00:46:58,936 On top of that is the noise pollution. 541 00:46:58,936 --> 00:47:05,440 You don't even realize that highway noise, if we cut that in half, wow. 542 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:12,584 I can remember back to 9-11, and I live in area, I hear planes all the time, don't notice them. 543 00:47:12,584 --> 00:47:17,006 What we noticed after 9-11 was the absence of the airplane noise. 544 00:47:17,006 --> 00:47:19,328 It was remarkable to notice it. 545 00:47:19,328 --> 00:47:21,653 So I'd love to do that with the traffic. 546 00:47:21,653 --> 00:47:26,875 Imagine if the turnpike didn't sound like the current sounds that you hear on the turnpike. 547 00:47:27,768 --> 00:47:30,730 No, I am about 10,000 % with you on that one. 548 00:47:30,730 --> 00:47:39,638 ah Fortunately, it's only a few times a day, but where we live, there are very loud logging trucks when they come down the road. 549 00:47:39,818 --> 00:47:41,460 And I've got problems logging. 550 00:47:41,460 --> 00:47:42,808 It's something that has to happen. 551 00:47:42,808 --> 00:47:45,463 And it provides a lot of good resources. 552 00:47:45,463 --> 00:47:53,970 But if we could get the logging trucks electric, all the better, just because of how damn loud those things are going through here. 553 00:47:54,111 --> 00:47:56,058 once again, it's pretty clear. 554 00:47:56,058 --> 00:48:01,750 I'll be at my yard and you can hear it, not only hear it, but you can smell like the actual particulate come out of it. 555 00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:09,732 So it's these kind of kind of local and clear pilot cases and kind of impacts that can, you can tie it to something and scale it to a much larger resource. 556 00:48:09,732 --> 00:48:17,575 But kind of given that we're talking about kind of these local aspects for each of our areas and communities and how electrification plays into that. 557 00:48:17,575 --> 00:48:22,384 Are there any things that you can share for those who might be listening, who are parts of utilities? 558 00:48:22,384 --> 00:48:30,759 uh Any feedback or advice you have of how to make implementing, whether it be electrification or just pilots in general, or trying to get buy-in to make these kinds of 559 00:48:30,759 --> 00:48:36,112 changes that would help those listening to be more effective in their own roles. 560 00:48:36,363 --> 00:48:45,737 Yeah, I, I, when I speak in public about connecting to the utility for electrification projects, I have a little sound bite that says, please contact your utility early and 561 00:48:45,737 --> 00:48:46,197 often. 562 00:48:46,197 --> 00:48:49,969 Um, a lot of times people don't think about it until too late. 563 00:48:49,969 --> 00:49:01,313 Um, but the problem is I've changed that sound bite a little bit contact us early and often, but find the team, find the electric vehicle team or the utility of the future team 564 00:49:01,313 --> 00:49:03,044 or the grid modernization team. 565 00:49:03,044 --> 00:49:06,345 I'm not sure what they call it, but they call it something like that. 566 00:49:06,379 --> 00:49:12,864 because if you just contact your utility and say, I'm thinking of putting in truck chargers two years from now, they're going to say, come back later. 567 00:49:12,864 --> 00:49:17,138 But no, need, utilities need to be at the table earlier. 568 00:49:17,138 --> 00:49:23,293 So another thing that's in that medium heavy duty program that we've proposed is technical and planning services. 569 00:49:23,293 --> 00:49:26,926 So we want to be our customers trusted utility advisor. 570 00:49:26,926 --> 00:49:28,667 We want to be their partner. 571 00:49:28,667 --> 00:49:36,113 um So we can help if we get this program approved, we can help with their electrification journey from the beginning. 572 00:49:36,205 --> 00:49:39,778 um One of the things, don't over-size your chargers. 573 00:49:39,778 --> 00:49:44,781 Dawn't think you need one fast charger for every truck, unless you really do. 574 00:49:44,781 --> 00:49:45,952 Look at your duty cycle. 575 00:49:45,952 --> 00:49:48,144 Look at whether you can share dual-port chargers. 576 00:49:48,144 --> 00:49:49,715 Look at level 2s and up. 577 00:49:49,715 --> 00:49:51,036 You're to pay a lower rate. 578 00:49:51,036 --> 00:49:53,798 You're going to pay a lower installation cost, all of that. 579 00:49:53,798 --> 00:49:58,021 um And it's better for the grid in the long run. 580 00:49:58,021 --> 00:50:04,549 um So to be able to offer those upfront planning services, which is way... 581 00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:06,971 upstream of what the utility normally provides. 582 00:50:06,971 --> 00:50:14,296 um I think those are vital and exciting and would help not only the customers but the utilities with the planning. 583 00:50:14,296 --> 00:50:26,749 So my advice to utilities is to try and find a way to provide that upfront, provide that earlier service, whatever that team may be, um rather than show me the load letter. 584 00:50:26,749 --> 00:50:32,225 I used to say if I had a nickel for every time internally I heard, me the load letter, which is 585 00:50:32,225 --> 00:50:40,551 your new business application or your service upload application, everybody calls it something different, it's effectively known as the load letter. 586 00:50:40,551 --> 00:50:45,675 um There's a lot of planning for electrification of a fleet before then. 587 00:50:45,675 --> 00:50:47,366 Do you want to do 10 % now? 588 00:50:47,366 --> 00:50:49,658 Do you want to do life cycle replacement? 589 00:50:49,658 --> 00:50:53,061 Do you want to build for now or build for future? 590 00:50:53,061 --> 00:50:56,543 You know, it's cheaper to build once rather than three times. 591 00:50:56,543 --> 00:50:59,029 However, it's such 592 00:50:59,029 --> 00:51:01,350 and impact on your rates. 593 00:51:01,350 --> 00:51:04,772 you got to sit down and think that all through and design all that. 594 00:51:04,772 --> 00:51:17,087 And if you're really just in the business of moving people in a bus or transporting goods in a fleet of trucks, you know, that's a completely new um analysis that you need. 595 00:51:18,672 --> 00:51:21,352 I don't I really appreciate you sharing all of those tips. 596 00:51:21,352 --> 00:51:23,172 Those are really impactful and really great. 597 00:51:23,172 --> 00:51:26,012 And I realized we're kind of coming up on the end of our time here. 598 00:51:26,072 --> 00:51:33,532 I think what brothers I was so excited to have you on is just like what you've been able to do so far and some of these projects that you've already done out. 599 00:51:33,532 --> 00:51:37,232 got this next phase of like launching new versions of these programs. 600 00:51:37,232 --> 00:51:46,352 But one of the things you had mentioned recently before we went live was the recent Edison truck and kind of just being like to that heavy duty kind of like ribbon cutting and some 601 00:51:46,352 --> 00:51:47,002 of that stuff. 602 00:51:47,002 --> 00:51:48,692 Can you share like some of these? 603 00:51:48,692 --> 00:51:50,233 I think it's always helpful. 604 00:51:50,233 --> 00:51:56,194 It's always easy to kind of like think about what's happened and where you're going, but like share this and like some of these other wins. 605 00:51:56,194 --> 00:52:03,499 it kind of helps give maybe some wind in the sails to others who are listening to show that these things are kind of having big impacts in there. 606 00:52:03,499 --> 00:52:06,840 Could they have big impacts in their own service community like they are for yours? 607 00:52:07,115 --> 00:52:08,325 Yeah, we're really excited. 608 00:52:08,325 --> 00:52:15,288 um EV NSC is a company in Kearney, New Jersey that just had a ribbon cutting ceremony yesterday for a truck charging hub. 609 00:52:15,288 --> 00:52:16,629 We are the power in it. 610 00:52:16,629 --> 00:52:18,830 know, they did most of it. 611 00:52:18,830 --> 00:52:21,291 just we put the E in EV, right? 612 00:52:21,291 --> 00:52:27,203 But we were excited to be a partner with them and for them to even give us the credit of a quote in their press release. 613 00:52:27,203 --> 00:52:31,735 And we were there at the ribbon cutting, celebrating this really great location. 614 00:52:31,735 --> 00:52:33,075 It's so near the port. 615 00:52:33,075 --> 00:52:36,137 um And, you know, trucks can come in and charge. 616 00:52:36,137 --> 00:52:37,217 We have 617 00:52:37,217 --> 00:52:44,243 The Port Authority put in a large truck charging hub, which we were supposed to have a ribbon cutting, but it got postponed due to the weather. 618 00:52:44,243 --> 00:52:46,065 So we will have one coming up. 619 00:52:46,065 --> 00:52:50,469 But that's another great facility right on the port where trucks can charge. 620 00:52:50,469 --> 00:52:58,716 We have another client that is putting in a huge truck, trucking as a service facility in Newark. 621 00:52:58,716 --> 00:53:00,007 And we're working on that now. 622 00:53:00,007 --> 00:53:02,699 It's early on and they've made a public announcement. 623 00:53:02,699 --> 00:53:04,341 So that's fine. 624 00:53:04,341 --> 00:53:05,005 But 625 00:53:05,005 --> 00:53:07,446 um We're just excited for these hubs. 626 00:53:07,446 --> 00:53:17,609 One of the other big things is the DEP, New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection, got a huge grant, $350 million grant, to put truck charging hubs. 627 00:53:17,909 --> 00:53:20,030 It's not just New Jersey, right? 628 00:53:20,030 --> 00:53:22,450 New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland. 629 00:53:22,450 --> 00:53:30,653 And last October, was Halloween, we had a ribbon cutting um at the um truck stop on the Turnpike. 630 00:53:30,653 --> 00:53:31,553 had one... 631 00:53:31,553 --> 00:53:36,236 the week before Vince Lombardi and then that one was at the Thomas Edison truck stop. 632 00:53:36,236 --> 00:53:46,703 um that's exciting because that's a collaboration between the DEP, the BPU, the utilities, we're the utility involved on the Turnpike for the most part and then Atlantic City 633 00:53:46,703 --> 00:53:47,964 Electric down in the south. 634 00:53:47,964 --> 00:53:55,129 um And I just think that's an amazing effort where, you know, we're collaborating where 635 00:53:55,129 --> 00:53:58,241 maybe historically these were more antagonistic relationships. 636 00:53:58,241 --> 00:54:06,607 Instead we're at the table together, monthly coordination meetings, and everybody's putting together the energy to create and get these truck stops. 637 00:54:06,607 --> 00:54:13,651 So, very excited about these couple that we've just cut the ribbon on and more are coming. 638 00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:15,370 No, that's great. 639 00:54:15,370 --> 00:54:20,313 And I think, that's such a great place to probably end it for today with those accomplishments. 640 00:54:20,313 --> 00:54:27,757 We'll have to have you and the CNG team on again soon to kind of share the updates and further see how the things you're working on evolve. 641 00:54:27,757 --> 00:54:30,038 But thank you so much for coming on today, Dom. 642 00:54:30,369 --> 00:54:33,139 Well, thank you for having me and I welcome the chance to come back. 643 00:54:38,264 --> 00:54:41,105 Thanks for tuning into this episode of Grid connections. 644 00:54:41,226 --> 00:54:49,560 We hope Dawn Neville's insights into PSE and G's EV program gave you a deeper look at how utilities are stepping up to support the clean transportation transition from 645 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,232 infrastructure planning to equity focused deployment. 646 00:54:52,232 --> 00:54:57,615 you found this episode valuable, please share with someone who cares about the future mobility and energy as well. 647 00:54:57,615 --> 00:55:01,157 Your support helps us reach more listeners and grow the conversation. 648 00:55:01,157 --> 00:55:04,961 Plus don't forget to leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. 649 00:55:04,961 --> 00:55:06,200 It really makes a difference. 650 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:14,326 And be sure to sign up for our newsletter using the link in the show notes to stay plugged in with the latest trends, expert interviews and clean energy news until next week. 651 00:55:14,326 --> 00:55:17,138 This is the great connections podcast signing off.