The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey Daron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden.

Joe, we need to talk about a trend I see in around Major League Baseball and I can't believe this is happening here, the stealing of signs off the bases without repercussions.

To me, that the culture of stealing signs has totally changed.

I mean, you remember, and it wasn't even that long ago where if you were relaying signs off the basis, somebody on your team was going to wear it on the hip or maybe worse.

And now we saw this in the Yankees Blue Jays series.

We saw it earlier with the Yankees and the Seattle Mariners, where it just seems to be a case of now, if a team is doing that and blatantly by the way, the way the Yankees are doing another basis, the.

Team in this case, Toronto says, that's on us.

We have to be better.

Give you your take real quick here to begin on how you see this culture changing in terms of stealing signs from basis.

Well, we've stripped away a lot of the aggress in this in our game, just through rules and regulations and right down to bat flips and celebrations where it's an accepted part of the baseball culture.

Now for us, you're right back in the day man, if you thought somebody was stealing signs, which I agree with what they're saying that we have to do a better job of concealing our signs.

Absolutely we do.

However, part of it.

Is if I'm going to make you think about a little bit, you're probably going to not try to do that.

So there's two ways of looking at I still think there should be some retaliation in some regard.

I'm not saying hit anybody in the head.

That's not my point, but you have to be able.

You have to make the other side think twice and not make it so easy on them.

To do it.

However, I do agree with that.

I used to get upset because we're doing a horrible job of concealing our signs, and that really comes down to a lot of pictures I've run around second base are very basic.

They don't like to have.

To think to the point where the catcher does different multiple signs in order to make it more difficult, and some guys will just refer to the first sign, second sign, whatever sign only because it's easier for them to do that, and then of course it becomes easier to steal signs.

Also, location, if you could just transmit location to the hitter, that in and of itself is an advantage, just because right handed pitcher throwing to a right handed hitter.

If I know the ball is going to be away, at least I can look away, and that's definitely an advantage, or look in looking away.

It could be fastball or breaking ball, slider.

If it's the locations in it could be fastball.

It could be a change the way the game is evolved.

But at least I know which side of the play to mentally protect.

So I agree you need to do a better job.

I also believe that we're just becoming way too polite in the game.

I'm not into politeness, you know.

I'm not of that ilk that people think you should shake hands after a game like the Stanley Cup.

Maybe after the seventh game of the World Series, possibly, but I'm I'm just not built that way, and I can't get over it.

I can't permit myself to view the world that way that it's so easy to lose and I have to immediately demonstratively concede to my opponent.

So batflips all this other crap, not being retaliatory anymore, fraternization, all that stuff.

I saw Lindor and I think it was Marte at second base the other day after a close call.

They're just waiting, They're waiting for the returns, and they're just standing there like two buddies that grew up in the same high school.

It's gotten to the point where that part of it does bother me a little bit.

Maybe that's old school in me, but I still believe in it.

Yeah, listen, nobody wants to see guys, as you mentioned, you know, throwing the ball up and in throwing the ball now ninety five plus miles an hour being routine.

I never liked the idea that because you did something that was against the unwritten rules, you're gonna be in a harms way, literally a harms a way.

Obviously there's a way to do it.

We saw Justin Verlander hit Mason Wynn the other day exactly the way you're supposed to do it, hit.

Him right in the wallet.

But that being said, we need to talk about, you know, how it's being done, because the PitchCom device has been great for the game, and it really if you remember before it, there was so much Shenanigan's going on from the bases in terms of picking up signs, and the PitchCom device, the wireless communication between the catcher and the pitcher.

Has really cut down on that.

But what's happening now is the Yankees are getting signed from the bases.

By the way, in this case it was Max Scherzer.

Earlier it was Andre's Munoz the Mariners closer.

You know, Scherzer is coming to the set position with his hands away from his body and high so that Cody Bellinger on first base can actually see his grip into his glove.

He begins to raise his arms to Aaron Judge at second base, and now he raises his arms to Ben Rice in the batter's box.

So Ben Rice now knows whether it's a fastball or it's an off speed pitch.

And he actually beat the Blue Jays in a key game in the Al East by getting tipped off when the off speed pitch was coming.

And Ben Rice absolutely crushes fastballs.

He doesn't hit much off anything.

Else.

But he absolutely crushes fastballs.

And he wound up getting to a full count, getting a fastball and hit a three run homer, all because he knew what pitch was coming.

Because Scherzer was not I call it ball security like the NFL, Joe was not protecting the way he was coming.

Set.

Now, the issue here with me, Joe, is the way the Yankees are doing it.

And Cody Bellinger talked after the game about this.

Yes, we have the signs and we don't care whether you know it or not.

There used to be discretion when it came to signaling them.

You know, a guy would lean one way or another.

He would tap the top of his helmet, some subtle sign.

The Yankees are out there and landing airplanes on the tarmac.

They don't care.

And you know, even John Schneider, the Toronto Blue Jay manager, was like, hey, that's on us now.

I did speak with another manager, Joe, and maybe you're along this line as well, who told me, listen, everybody does it.

We do it, but we think it's disrespectful to do it so blatantly.

You know, they're more subtle about the way they relay it when they do have the signs from somebody.

Should that make a difference, Joe, if you're getting the signs, should you be essentially rubbing it in the face as the other team or should you be more discreet about it?

I like what Bellacher did.

Actually, that's almost like the Jack Ryan approach.

Yeah, we did it, we got it, and now it's your turn to do something about it back at us whatever.

So again this I think this is a weird philosophical argument that could be bounced back and forth all day long.

There's no one right answer, and there's no wrong answer right here.

Yeah, if you're tipping like the I actually wrote grip down before he got into that, because the guys at second base can see.

The hand in the glove.

And furthermore, there are thieves on the bench that really can pick up things in advance, just by the way you come set.

I've talked about this before the Great West Westerroom.

I used to sit with Wes at games at Arizona State.

West used to call pitches for Willie Mays and William mcubvey from the first base coaching box, and Wes would sit there and call Kendall Carter's pitches right before he.

Threw the ball.

So that to me is fair game, I believe.

And so what kind of what bellingers say is fair game?

If and if ciarsar is that obvious, that's fair game.

That's that is not cheating in any way, shape or form.

That is good baseball as far as I'm concerned, And I kind of agree there that retaliation is not necessary right there.

We have to do a better job of protecting our pitches.

When does the retaliation become an issue?

Again, I'm not saying actually like hit somebody, but you got to make somebody uncomfortable.

You got to change it up, maybe signe wise, so that this typical tipping thing that you're gonna do, you zig when they think you're gonna zag.

I mean, in other words, if they think it's a fastball based on what you've been doing, so you tip intentionally and then throw the opposite pitch to really confuse because I'll tell you what, when you get it wrong once, just one time, if the runner at second base gets it wrong one time, the hitter loses a lot of confidence there because it gets really uncomfortable when you're sitting something soft save for instance, and all of a sudden the guy buzzes you.

Bad feeling, really bad feeling.

So there's way I used to combat that within the structure of the game where it does not call for violence in a sense.

But again, if you're messing it up, if you're tipping, if you're doing things, that is fair game.

Just like I used to be really good.

I talked about this in stealing signs from third base coaches.

I would study them things that Preston Gomez had taught me, and I had a really good run in the late nineties when pitch out was more popular because of the hit and run, etc.

So that was always fair game.

That's not cheating to me, that's like good baseball sense.

So there's a fine line here between when you really need to do something about it and as opposed to, yeah, I gotta do something about I got to be better at what we're doing and not being so concerned about what they're doing.

Yeah, it was only about I want to say now, three years ago, there was a pitching coach that showed me screenshots of what his club was doing, and this was on his own pitcher, where you could tell that the position of his hand placement on a breaking ball in the fastball was slightly different.

Now they have algorithms programs to go through all the videos on pictures, and every club has videos, not just what you're watching at home, but cameras trained on every picture to try to pick up tells and they can tell by it essentially through AI where something is different consistently, and so every team is doing this.

If you do have a tail, people are going to know.

You have to obviously self scout to make sure you're not giving anything away.

So it's got next level in terms of technology.

And I think pictures, well, I know pictures have to spend so much time on it, but I'm going to give you an example, Joe, of how difficult it can be in the heat of competition.

Nabille Chris Mott is a picture for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Tory Leavello, the manager realized he was tipping his pitches.

Now, you may have seen something like this in the past, Joe, where he comes set with the hand in the glove at the belt and he's essentially an off.

Speed pitcher, a lot of change ups, a lot of breaking ball.

But what he was regripping to throw a change up or break the glove would fan a little more because he's getting his fingers around the baseball when he was throwing his fastball, where the fingers are not so much around the baseball, the glove was not fanning.

And there were times in the course of a game after they alerted him to this where Tori from the dugout would actually yell at him and say, stop it.

You're doing it again.

Because your body wants to do it.

It wants to do naturally right.

He'd a competition, maybe you're not paying attention to it, and every once in a while, Tory we'd have to remind him.

But that's how they fixed him.

And every team had this.

So this is going on and you can't get away with it the way you did in the past because every team has essentially an army of analysts who are looking at these things.

It's part of what the game is today, and I think that's why the culture has changed.

Though.

As you mentioned, there used to be certain guys like a West westroom who has almost a gift to figure out these tells, and now you have an army of analysts breaking pictures down.

So everybody's doing it and there's a lot of focus and attention and time paid to it, no.

Doubt all true.

The thing I still like, I'm surprised that maybe more haven't done.

It is like a Ryan Dempster.

Remember Demper would just constantly move his glove he.

Was making a martini.

Joe, Yeah, exactly, shaken nuts, stirred or stirred, not shake no shaken nuts dirt.

Yes, I don't understand why maybe that might not become more popular.

The problem with that is just the you suggest that being comfortable or uncomfortable doing those kinds of things from the picture's perspective.

So that would be something you would have to teacher, really want to get into in the minor league situation, just to make it more complicated in a sense, just the way you start, as opposed to just this pure clean delivery, because there was even to the point back I remember specifically a very popular thing when the guys used to do a more full wind up, when their hand would swing down by the side of their body.

Out of the wind up, you would see only fingers on a fastball in the hand came back and you would see a lot of white on a breaking ball, And that was a really easy surefire away of really determining what was with pitch was coming at you.

So there's all the little nuance involved.

But I liked the idea of a little bit more movement with your glove as you start this whole thing, and then out of the with the runner on second base, if you truly believe that's going on to set it up in advance, that you're gonna call one thing and do something completely different just to get this hitter off of it.

Because again I'm telling you one time and the hitter, the hitter will definitely retreat at that point.

Yeah, it's surprising to me that Max Scherzer is still coming to the set position with his hands so high and away from his body.

If you watch most pitchers today, their glove is tight on the belly, I mean really close to the body.

A lot of guys actually have it turned more towards the side so it's even away from the hitter, so you don't see any regripping.

You don't see the shape of the glove.

To me, pitching has changed a lot in that way, Joe.

You don't see guys coming set with their hands higher away from their body, and Max Scherzer did that.

And listen, when you're playing the Yankees.

These days, as Cody Bellinger let us know, they're not bashful about it, and they're as good as anybody when it comes to breaking down.

And not necessarily the players.

I'm talking about the front office.

You know they have Maven's there who can figure these things out.

You have to know when you're playing New York ball, security is a top priority.

They can get inside your head.

No doubt.

I mean.

And that's like I said, that's all good.

I have no issue with that, and you're right about the to me, that's where analytics is.

Okay.

Actually, I don't think that's cheating.

What I wanted to do, I guess it was illegal.

But what I wanted to do way back when in the nineties was as I was the first base coach with the Angels, I wanted a camera behind first base, at least at home, so I could study the opposition pitchers moves to try to give a better key to the runner in order to like just especially against the lefty, to get a better jump and even steal against left tended pictures were.

Know when to come back.

So I always thought that would have been a good.

Idea, and I was told I couldn't do that although we had like Little Diego had little cameras on both sides for hitters that I had him kind of read direct towards the picture when we got to that particular point, I can't.

I'd like to say that it was more helpful.

It really wasn't.

But I think based on today's abilities, I would even be surprised that that's not being done at some point.

But all this stuff, all the chech man, I'm telling you, it does.

It turns it down into a still picture that you can be studied.

And then you just played over and over again for the guys before the game, and all of a sudden you got a definitive key when you know the other team signs of what they're doing.

Man, it's a tremendous advantage, just as you would think it is.

Yeah, I mean it works for the Yankees.

I mean the fact that they do it so blatantly.

It actually is an effective way because it has to be done quickly.

Remember they're talking about a run around first relaying to second, run around second relaying to the batter, and in some cases it was the first pace coach relaying to the runner on second base.

So you can see it's right before the shurezer begins to take the body the glove and begin the delivery, that the batter is getting the message from second.

That's enough time, right, Joe.

If you're a batter and you realize you're getting.

Tipped off that the change up is coming, even if.

It's right before the pitch, you could do so you're gonna sit back.

Yeah, I'll tell you what we And again on the basis to give an example, we had a triangulation going on with the Angels.

Ron Redicky, great third base coach, outstanding and he learned it from Joey mal Patano, and we had Primo Alfredo Griffin at first and I was in the dugout.

What we tried to do is get the.

Bench coaches signs to the catcher, because it was everything was control throwover or no throw over, and maybe a pitch out signed too.

So what we'd be able to do once we figure them out, we would be able to.

If I got it, you give it to Rags and Rags that's Ronnie Renicke.

He'd look in to he'd look at the runner at first base in the moment Rags the pitcher comes set.

If Rags would lean towards his left like towards second base.

The runner knew that the pitcher was not coming over, so the runner had this free reign of going to second base if he did not lean, maybe Ronnie wasn't sure.

Heads up, the ball is coming over to you.

A tremendous advantage, so sometimes Primo Alfredo Griffin would grab it.

He was also good at grips and he could see the catcher sign sometimes all this stuff.

So we had this triangulation work.

And if you remember in the early two thousands, we did a great job against the Yankees.

We had the bench coach signs coming in on the throwovers, and they had two different catches, Pisado and Flaherty, and we knew each had I think it was first sign or second sign based on who the catcher was, and we had that all figured out.

So in that like you're talking about, that nanosecond, that brief moment, we could get that sign, get it to Rags.

Rags in a moment would see what was going on and he would lean or not lean.

And we had a tremendous advantage.

And that was all done by the factor because the other team did not conceal their signs.

Well enough, great stuff.

I love hearing those stories, Joe.

What I want to hear from you next is the teams that played for the National League Pennant last year.

The Dodgers and the New York Mets are both scuffling.

Are they in trouble?

We'll examine that right after this on the Book of Joe.

Welcome back to the Book of Joe, and we need to talk about the New York Mets.

Joe, they are in a fourteen and twenty four free fall since the end of July.

They've actually outscored their opponents by somehow, losing twenty four of those thirty eight games two eighteen to two eight.

They've outscored opponents.

Now, there was a couple of blowout wins they had in there, but they're losing close games.

They've lost eleven of the last fifteen games decided by two runs.

Monday night, they go to Philadelphia.

They lose again by one run, one to nothing.

Tell me about what you see of this team, Joe.

It should be a much better team offensively.

We know about some of the issues they've had in the pitching department, but they're in a bit of.

A free fall.

Here and they don't seem to be able to stop it.

Yeah, it's kind of like your record tells you who you are.

Kind of a thing that Bill Parcells.

Listen on the field, they got some nice things going on, there's no question.

I mean Alonso, thank god they signed him, right, I mean, had they not signed him, that had been an entirely different look for them for this season.

What I see a lot of times from my perspective, a lot of breakdowns in the bullpen.

Hensley comes over from the Cardinals that miss and this guy's got great stuff.

He doesn't have good stuff, he's got great stuff.

So maybe he's the tipper of the month.

I don't know, because guys are all over his stuff and I've seen him in person.

This is really high end fuel that's getting turned around quite regularly.

You'll let me stop you there, Yeah, roughly, because that's a great point.

I'm watching him against Philadelphia Monday night.

You saw him pitching.

He threw fifteen pitches, fourteen of them were breaking balls.

This is a guy who throws one hundred miles an hour, averages about fifty percent of his pitches being foreseen fastballs.

He threw one foreseen fastball out of fifteen pitches.

There's no reason to that.

I mean, he's facing Batory, he's facing Kepler, he's facing real Muto.

You know, this wasn't Schwerbery, it wasn't Harper.

I mean, for a guy like that to run away from his fastball, he's had a tremendous amount of trouble trying to get into a routine now that he's not the ninth inning.

Pitch the ninth inning, you know, clean one inning every single time.

Just does not do a good job when dropped into a game before the ninth inning.

This is a big.

Problem for the New York Mets.

Why would he throwing so many breaking balls?

Joe two, I think I got two points.

I would think of Number one would be that he's not proud of his fastball.

That's the that's the phrase we use, even though it registers and triple digits.

He's not proud of his fastball.

The confidence has gone, it's gotten turned around a little bit.

And it could be that other part would be the way the other team, the Mets breakdown the other team's hitters and we throw this guy.

Just feed this guy breaking balls, his feeding breaking balls.

He can't hit a breaking ball that kind of a thing.

So or it just might be a combination of both.

That he's not proud of his fastball right now, plus this particular group of hitters you're talking about, because real Mudo has been hot too.

Man, he's had a nice second half.

They that just might have been strategy.

He's also he's got a really good breaking ball too.

So I just think from what I've seen, Like I said, I've seen that one hundred one on one been turned around like a god dang it.

It's just like the evolution of the hitter.

The fact that back in the day, like ninety three ninety four was considered gas and I know there's different ways of measuring it based on different guns and whatever.

But all of a sudden and this guy's getting turned around.

So I think he's his confidence has been nicked up a little bit there, and thus he's taken a different avenue.

So the truth probably lies somewhere in the combination of all those different reasons.

But that's a big part of the problem.

He's lost some pretty big moments for them.

And then the thing that people don't talk about enough for me is that the momentum lost when you lose games like that, and how it compounds, and how it's difficult to turn it around the next day and come back and get back on a street.

You have this ability to kind of get hot and stay hot, and you put yourself in a good position all night long, and all of a sudden puff there it goes away, and then it happens again a day or two later.

That's kind of devastating stuff.

So that's the ancillary component to all this, and nobody ever talks about.

And I was really big on it, and that's why man I always played every game to win every night, because momentum gain or momentum loss matters.

It's something that cannot be measured.

It's a field thing.

You walk in the clubhousekies the conversation comes more easily with one another.

There's more trepidation, you could tell, the derbusness and voices or confidence and voices.

These are the kind of These are the unmeasurables that happen both ways, the confident way and the non confident way.

So that's part of it.

Because on the field of the atos is getting hot.

God, when this guy is playing right or swinging the bat well interesting baty all you know had a decent year for them.

I've seen Nimmeldud good things, and there's a lot of good going on there.

But I think for me, the primary problem has been the breakdown in the bullpen, not holding leads or games that prevent them from gaining the momentum that they so desperately need.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that the idea that of momentum gained and loss because baseball is not at the sketch you know, you don't shake it and get a complete new start the next day.

I can feel it as I go around and see teams and talk to managers and players and coaches.

You know when a team is in a good place and it is built non confidence or lack thereof if you don't have it.

And that's my question for you, Joe, is when you deal with someone like Hellsley are the Yankees and Aaron Boone went through this with Devin Williams.

Dave Roberts is going through this with Tanner Scott.

You've got guys who've got great stuff right and a great track record, and you keep throwing them out there in high leverage situations because you are confident that that's the pitcher that they are.

But to me watching some of these guys, especially Hellsley, at some point, you've got to say it's different.

Right now, we've got to back them up, get them out of high leverage things.

Work on something, whether it's pitch selection or mechanics, whatever it might be, to try to get him right instead of just putting these guys in the same high leverage spots because they've done it in the past.

Sometimes you got to get off a guy, even if it's temporarily.

I would go to the pitching coach and I would say, we got to get him in, get him out, get him in, get him out.

That was my way of rebuilding confidence a little bit easier.

I think back in the day when it was not a three batter minimum.

The three batter minimum kind of makes that more difficult.

So in today's game, I would look for a two out situation and bring somebody in with two outs so that he can get an smatch up.

Get him in, get him out, get that last out, walk off the field.

I don't have to put him back out there the next inning.

I called him, get him in and get him out, And that's exactly what I would say to my pitching coach, and for me, there was a like I said, an easier matchup.

Now, of course if he does get the first guy out when he comes in, and I'd prefer to be like with nobody on if possible, or maybe just one guy on.

But that was my method of rebuilding confidence with a relief pitcher that was struggling a good guy or any guy, but especially a good guy.

So I'd like to get him and get him out.

And that's what I would suggest, because if you keep putting himTo the leverage moments in it, man, you could just see it in the face.

Devin Williams have been watching it all year and I think he's full and everybody.

Once in a while he has somewhat of a clean inning, but it's not really clean.

I don't like his armstroke.

I don't know this is analytically.

I'd love to see the breakdown of his release point compared to now and in the past, and like the arm speed at the point of release.

Things like that are the things that to me, it's like a non committed golf swinger.

Just everything's being guided or pushed or aimed.

That's what I see with guys that are off that are good, but are not good at the very moment.

So I would suggest get him in, get him out.

Look for those moments.

I know you well, we might be wasting him with just one out in the seventh, and you know you're not.

You're trying to build this confidence up so that the next couple times out the guy.

It's really cool when you get the last out of an inning and you walk into the dugout and you sit back down.

You know your day's over.

That deep breath shows up, and then you go inside, ice down whatever you need to do, and then your confidence going to the next day is much greater.

By the way, great call on Devin Williams checking the numbers here.

His arm angle has dropped for a fifth consecutive year.

He's gone from a thirty one degree angle to a twenty one degree angle.

I mean, I know understand he's a side spin guy, he wants to work around the baseball, but that tells you he's getting even lower on that baseball.

Good point there with your own eyes.

I love that, Joe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One other point of the Mets, because it turns out their deadline work really not that good.

Hell's the big pickup of the bullpen has been a zero and Cedric Mullins a big pickup for centerfield man.

He's been bad for the New York Mets.

His lash line one seventy four, two eighty four, two seventy two.

Slug to meet Joe.

He's a non player right now.

The defense is not good.

He can run it down, but he doesn't really throw well.

And against Philadelphia Monday night, Mets are down one nothing.

Fifth inning, leadoff runner gets on base, Brett Baty, Mallins tries to bunt.

Now, I don't know whether that was from the bunt from the venture or not, but this is Mullins batting against Aaron Nolan the fifth inning of a one nothing game.

That's I don't understand.

The top of the lineup is coming around, but that should not be a bunt situation.

In the fifth inning, first pitch pops up with fastball, so there's an out.

Lindor on the second pitch he sees flies out and then Brett Baty gets picked off first base.

So in a matter of three pitches, hitting over.

But what do you see with Cedric Mullins and and the idea that you're get a butt in the fifth inning in Philadelphia Mullins hitting against the right handed pitcher.

First of all, I like him, I've always liked him, and I agree.

I've been watching the whole thing and it's been very difficult.

And they're just like you said, their acquisitions, really I thought, really good acquisitions are not playing up.

To their capabilities right now.

Want to get here's another thing you talked about the picture that's struggling guys like hitting that struggling like that.

And I know he's a veteran, but I had this little thing I used to do with guys.

Also, First at bat, you take a strike, Second at bat, you take a pitch.

Third at bat, you're on your own unless in those first two at batches are runner in scoring quisition than Rock and roll.

The point was a lot of times I just don't think you're seeing the ball well and you're a little bit too antsy, a little bit like maybe overly aggressive.

I did it with Dallas mcsperrison.

I wasn't even the hitting coach at the time, but Dallas was a really good prospect coming up with the Angels and really didn't have a definitive planet home plate.

The interference would be and I didn't.

I hate to tell guys what to do, but I just a strong suggestion.

You're first at bat, get up there.

Just take a strike.

So you're gonna get up there.

You know, you don't, don't concede anything, go through your normal routine.

You look like you're going to swing and then don't.

And if it's a strike, okay, you're ready to rock and roll.

It's ball one.

I've taken the I'm taking the next pitch until I get a strike.

And this kind of like settles you down a little bit.

The biggest thing is that probably the ball looks like ap to him right now, or even a pink punk ball whatever.

It's just that small and it's that quick.

You got to slow it down.

You got to focus on seeing the ball first, and you got to think small and not big.

So I would do anything I possibly could to get him in that mindset.

And that's it.

I mean, he's good, he's good.

I mean if he gets again.

We talked about confidence a moment ago.

If he gets his confidence all of a sudden, he's gonna be a big contributor to what they're doing.

But sometimes you got to create a plan.

How do I slow this down?

How do I get the ball?

To see the ball big?

Again?

I used to y'all see it big, because I'll tell you what.

When that ball gets small, man, it is on you in a blink of an eye, not even the blink of an eye, and it's just in the catcher's mid and you feel absolutely helpless.

Well, the New York Mets are, they're in trouble.

I still like their chances obviously to be a get into the postseason, but they're at a point now where Codai Sanga, who should be their ace in the minor leagues, They've got a six man rotation with three rookies in there.

Three rookies in your rotation in September, trying to hang on vicarious situation for me.

We'll see how that plays out.

As far as the La Dodgers go, Joe.

In the last one hundred games, they're fifty one to forty nine.

They've not played really good baseball for a long time.

And to me, the biggest culprit is their bullpen.

If you look at the twelve teams in playoff position today, the Dodgers have the worst bullpen.

You break it down any way, you want slugging decisions because they have a lot of games decided the bullpen.

They're losing a lot of these games.

Listen, they got Alex Vesia back.

He's been a big key for them with that crazy spin for seing fastball that he has, and Dave Roberts goes to him a lot.

But tell me what you see the Dodgers where you think their bullpen is an issue that will carry over into the postseason.

What happened the other night I was happening to I mean, I'm watching the I guess I was watching the news, and all of a sudden, that little thing comes up, no hitter.

So I turned on the Dodger game, and you have a Moto is just shoving, I mean absolutely in command with the reels, and I'm watching he gets too quick outs in the night that oh my god.

And then he did I don't know why, but he throws a breaking ball middle and I don't think he tried to throw it there, and all of a sudden home run, which his name the kid Holiday, the Holiday app it's the homer to write barely gets over it's a homer.

Here comes training and everybody's having a love fest on the mound, which I don't like.

And then and all of a sudden, here we go with basic, basic base hit.

Game over.

But I'll defend a training and he did have that one dude struck out.

I can't remember who the hitter was, Umpart, absolutely blue or cult strike three pitch.

However, that happens, and you got to move on from there.

But the fact that they lost that game was like, that really was telling.

I thought, So, you know, they're coming off like this glamorous season, the Hollywood season.

They won, they won, they won, and you know, that's the first real world series victory.

The one the trunk haaty year not so much.

And so I don't know, I think there's a little bit of that still going on.

There's a little bit of I don't want to say, resting on your laurels, but there's a safe there's kind of satiated in a sense, and they haven't really pushed to the level that they have in the pastor we're lying on a lot of young players too.

Man, there's a lot of no namers out there that are cutting their teeths.

So from the Dodger's perspective as an organization, it would consider that okay, like the fact that we're just okay right now, but we're relying on a lot of young players that are really starting to possibly turn the corner an end are our future.

So there's some things to like there too, in spite of their record, But overall, they are who they are, like the fifty one to forty nine, that's who they are right now, and we'll see.

It's got to that point if they got to switch, if they got the Jimmy Edmunds switch, they need to turn it on right now because you just can't wait till the playoffs and all of a sudden, I think you're gonna turn.

I think they need to turn up the dial right now.

They've got to get really focused and almost among each other talking about listen, let's we got to finish this strong and get ready for the playoffs, because if they go into the rest of September in the very mediocre away which they have, I don't think it's going to happen for them.

It's a great point, Joe, because I think that's what they're doing.

I think they're relying on the fact that they are battle to they know how to respond in big moments.

Back against the wall.

Their talent is going to show.

And I'm not saying they're not trying, but I think the sense of urgency they have not played with that this year.

I will tell you I saw the Yankees go through this in two thousand.

I mean, they were terrible in September, and every time they got into a big spot in the postseason, they would find a way to win a game.

It can happen.

I know people don't want to hear that that you can't turn it on and off like a switch, but it can happen.

When you talk about teams, especially teams like those Yankees were in two thousand and this Dodger team that has so much experience, it had been in so many different situations and predicaments that they can basically will their way and especially talent, their way out of it.

I just think the thing to watch with the Dodgers now, they're not as good of a defensive team as they've been in the past.

That is clear to me, and the bullpen is an issue.

I don't think Dave Roberts right now has a clear path to an endgame here where he wants to go, and he's got the arms to do it.

But again, a guy like Tanner Scott scares me right now.

He's another two pitch guy.

If you can't command both pitches and people narrow it down.

Especially his fastball has become much more hittable this year.

Stuff looks good, track record looks great, but the way he's pitching right now would scare me a little bit.

Absolutely.

And as a manager, when you're in this position, you like absolutes.

You have your your your formulaic way of winning a baseball game.

Guys that you could count on your even orhead guys are even or ahead guys, and you're not ambivalent with that.

They're not ambivalent.

They're they're going to show up every night or almost every night.

It's like a ninety five or ninety seven percent of the time you know.

What to expect.

But when you don't, Wow, that's very unsettling from a manager's perspective.

Of course, from the team and organizational perspective, it's even more insettling.

But being the person having to make these choices when you don't know what to expect, Wow, is that difficult.

It is so difficult, And even with some tried and true kind of dudes, it's it makes you.

It makes your job like extraordinarily difficult.

And again with the three batter minimum, it's becomes compounded when you can't match up again, like just even if it any begins and the right he gets the first dot.

Here comes a lefty and the lefties Tanner Scott and they're not going to pinch it.

I want to bring Tanner Scott in to face this one lefty and he gets him out.

Here comes a righty afterwards, boom boom.

I get these guys in and out of games, and I'm able to build up their confidence again slowly.

It just takes these little micro moments to.

Put us in the right frame of mind, where it takes the little micro moments to put us in a bad frame of mind, and it just it becomes really a contagion that doesn't want.

To go away.

So that's the one part.

About the bullpen manipulation that I would miss when I got guys that are really not being themselves.

The three batter minimum puts me at a disadvantage of trying to get them well by really slotting them on a one or maybe two guys that I feel really good about them with because guess of that third guy and it might be a bad matchup, and you know it.

You know what going into it.

Man, you look, you got you always right now you're working little pods.

You don't just work.

You don't put like one name after a hitter's name.

Now you got to work in pods of three.

Every time you set up your bullpen before the game, it's always it's a threesome.

So these are the kind of things that I think a manager would be missing right now.

I think as.

The inability the rules get in the way right now of trying to fix somebody a little bit.

Quicker Pennant raise baseball always exciting, so much urgency.

He can't rely on the old adage that it's a long season, it's a marathon.

It's it's urgent time.

It's fun to watch.

I guess, un listen, you're a Mets fan these days, and it might be a little difficult to watch.

But I've a quick break.

We'll get to this.

A bit of sad news.

We lost one of the great big baseball lives who I think has been underappreciated across his career at baseball.

We'll talk about that next.

On the Book of Joe.

Welcome Back, to the book of Joe Joe Madden.

I'm not sure if you ever came across your travels Davy Johnson, manager famously of the world champion New York Mets of nineteen eighty six, but a long distinguished playing and managing career.

But he seems like you're kind of guy.

Yeah, I came across Dave.

You actually got in a pretty good argument with him.

I'm not surprised.

Yeah.

It was in Washington.

We're playing the Nationals, still with the Rays, and Joel Prault was pitching for US, who had pitched for Washington the year before, and Davy called him out on pine tar and so the Empires go out there, and of course it was true, and so Joel not only gets kicked out of the game, everything's confiscated, and then he gets suspended.

For eight games after that.

But as this is happening, as the Empires are out there, I kind of took a walk towards their dugout during the game, and I'm kind of screaming in their dugout because my problem with the whole thing was the fact that Joe had just pitched the other year before, so of course they had all this insight intel they had, so don't act like you're doing something spectacular.

It's almost like the time Frank Robinson called Brendan Donnelly on it in Anaheim.

I got kind of upset about that too.

I wasn't the manager though, so that's the one that was my one run in with him.

Afterwards, I said some things, probably would like to retract it, and he came back.

He called me a weird woos.

A weird wos was.

What appeared in the paper the next day, which I absolutely loved anyway.

And Marcel Lashman worked with him with the USA teams, and Marshall loved him, and I know the guys that played for him loved him also.

I just didn't get to.

Know him well, but I know would have been my kind of manager.

What he did with the was eighty five mets it.

It was kind of like a computerized version of a manager back then.

He was, you know, like the earl weaver of the platooning kind of a thing.

Gene Mack with all of his intellect, and Davy Johnson I think stood out a little bit and in regards to how he did things and the positive nature of the way he did do things.

I just didn't know him.

I didn't get to know him well, but I did have that one run in with him.

So yeah, it's and I'm reading the comments from the former Met players.

They love this guy.

They absolutely love this guy.

And that screams at me too.

So I had one difficult moment with him, but I laughed about it, and I'm sure he did too.

It is a tough loss.

He's he eighty two years old.

Yeah, he's one of only three people and the others are Joe Tory and Dusty Baker who had more than one hundred home runs in the big leagues and then was three hundred games over five hundred as a manager in the big leagues.

Now, he is the eighth highest winning percentage of all managers who managed at least two thousand games in the big leagues.

You know, everybody in the top ten is in the Hall of Fame except Davy Johnson.

He just won.

He was the first, besides winning the World Series and still the last Mets manager to win the World Series, the first manager to bring the Washington Nationals to the postseason, and that was the year with Stephen Strasburg shutdown, so he didn't have his ace and the loss of the Cardinals in the DS.

He's the lost Baltimore Orioles.

Manager to take his team and win games in the ALCS.

He's the last Cincinnati Reds manager to win around in the postseason.

Everywhere he went won.

And especially Joe, that New York Mets team, I was there, full of just characters, personality, and that was Davy.

They took on his swagger.

Now, there are a bunch of confident guys, and they would have had swagger anyway, but Davy allowed them to play that way, to be that way, to live hard off the field.

Day didn't care as long as you showed up on time.

And with that Mets team, that was a problem sometimes.

Don't get me wrong.

It sounds like a simple rule, but it was tough for them to make to get to the ballpark on time and to play hard.

They had no problem doing that.

Joe, that was one of, if not the best rally teams I've ever seen.

There was no quit in that team.

And it wasn't just you know, Game six of the World Series against Boston, they played that way.

I called it.

There are a bunch of middle aged marauders.

The Mets would come into town, they wanted to drink your beer and kick your butt.

They get out of town and go on to the next conquest.

They had this way of playing that reflected Davy's confidence.

I have not been around too many guys, Joe who wore their confidence as openly as Davy Johnson.

You know, I was a young reporter back then covering the Mets, and that Bob Klappish was another young beat reporter, and Davy used to always tell us because we loved asking him questions, not just to learn about the game, but we wanted to know what he was thinking.

As you mentioned, he was a mathematics major in college, one of the first managers to use a computer.

Didn't rely on it to make decisions, but used it to inform decisions.

Davy would say to us so many times.

If he said it once, he must have said it a hundred times.

You guys, you know just enough about baseball to be dangerous.

But he would welcome our questions after the game.

He had the thickest skin I've ever seen.

When the Mets fired him in nineteen ninety, essentially told me, you know what, if the Mets are dumb enough to fire me, then I was working for the wrong team anyway, just tremendously confident in what he knew and what he did.

Yeah, that all suns.

I mean the word that jumps is charismatic.

I mean that's that whole team and him and Davy himself.

Now, after hearing all this, I wish I'd spoke to him more often.

I didn't do that enough.

But that's all really desirable traits did not get in the way of the greatness of the Mets.

I mean, I know there's a lot of guys managers of that era that would have tried to compromise that natural creativity of those players and try to rein them in, create more discipline here, or whatever you want to call it.

I wanted my discipline.

I always wanted my discipline as a manager on the field, meaning that we played the game a certain way.

We played it hard, Like you suggested, Guys knew where to throw the baseball when it was hit to them.

You ran hard to first base, pitchers worked on your defense.

You know how to hold the runner on first base.

If you got a bunch, you knew where to throw it and how to throw it.

Those are the kind of things that's where you want your discipline and not to the point you want.

You know, you don't have to go to the police station at night, but you definitely want this state out of their way and not tell them how to dress, how to act, and permit them to be adults, which they are.

They probably all had kids and they were after all, they were of drinking age and able to serve in the armed forces.

So that's where I've always had issues.

And good for him, Good for him.

I love hearing all of this, and that makes being called a word whisp by him even more spectacular.

Well, he had a Boston Frank Cash and the general manager who was very old school, and it rubbed him the wrong way that he thought this Mets team was a little too loose.

You know.

They traded Kevin Mitchell because they thought he was a bad influence on Dwight Gooden.

Davey didn't care.

Davy was a guy who played Kevin Mitchell at shortstop when he had a fly ball pitcher like Sid Fernandez on the mound.

Davy ran a game where he brought in Jesse Roscoe and Roger McDowell, alternating between the outfield and the pitcher's mound.

He was short of players because some guys got ejected during a fight, and that happened a lot in Mets games.

He wasn't afraid to make moves.

He moved Cal Ripken off a shortstop to third base to play Manny Alexander.

This is what Davey did.

But Frank Cash and thought he was little too lax.

And he reminds me of you, Joe, this way and your famous line like never get in the way of greatness.

And he didn't want to put governors on these guys who played fast and loose.

That was Davey Johnson.

And when they fired him, Frank Cash made Bud Harrelson the manager and essentially told them you need rules, and they started instituting rules.

They had no card playing in the clubhouse, they had no golf on the road.

They established a curfew.

When was the last time you had heard curfew in Major League Baseball?

None of it worked, and David Johnson said, listen, Frank, one of these rules.

We didn't need them.

And of course it didn't work when they went the other way.

But David Johnson was the right manager for the right players because exactly what you said, Joe all along, don't get in the way of greatness.

Yeah, if you're.

Winning, it's not being too loose, it's being like a free spirited having a blast family.

All those different words are utilized.

It's like, are the rules and regulations of the past?

Is that the comp to present day analytical situation where things are wanting to be controlled so much.

Maybe that's why I recognized where I think analytics has gone too far because I was never really into a whole bunch of rules and regulations.

I called them policies.

I had my meetings with my players, and I would never use the word rules in rags.

I did early on in my career.

Then I got over it, and then we started as great policies.

And when you have policy, it's a little bit more open minded.

It's something that's not as rigid.

It's something that I think is malleable and not so straightforward and harsh.

So I get all that, and I agree with Davy's methods, and like I said, I wish I'd gotten to know him better based on this conversation.

Right now, just to wrap things up on Davey Johnson, you know what a life you know, one two world series as a player, one as a manager.

He had the last hit off Sandy Kofax.

He hit behind Hank aaron En, Sadahara.

Oh.

He managed Rusty Stobb.

Who was born in nineteen forty four, and Bryce Harper who was born in nineteen ninety two.

You know, this guy basically did it all in the game except get into the Hall of Fame.

And one thing I have to point out Joe is that when he was the Mets TRIPAA manager, when he was promoted, he paid his dues in the minor leagues right, and so he had some of these guys in the team in the minor leagues.

He was the one who told Frank Cash in nineteen eighty four that Dwight Gooden, who was nineteen years old, was so good they had to carry about the opening day roster.

Imagine that now, a team carrying a nineteen year old pitcher on the opening day roster.

But Davey understood, this guy's the best picture I've had.

And you look at Gooden, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera, Randy Myers, Sid Fernandez, and then David Cohene after that, all these pitchers, young pitchers who Davy Johnson had in a short two three year window.

They all pitched twelve to sixteen years in the major leagues.

He was a master at handling young pitchers, and I can hear him to this day talking about when Darling and Gooden and Fernandez were in a game.

This is when people paid attention to wins and losses.

He never wanted them to be in a situation where they could lose a game where they were pitching well.

So, in other words, a three run lead, leadoff guy gets on base, that's probably the opportunity to get the picture out of the game.

He never wanted his pitcher to walk off the field with a bad feeling with a loss next to their name.

It mattered back then, and I think to some degree it still matters.

Joe, But the way he handled young pitching, and especially and Melstottlemeyer was his pitching coach all those years, did a fabulous job.

Proof is in the pudding.

When you have guys lasting twelve to sixteen years after starting as a young pitchers.

The nineteen year old good And today would have that, what five innings at the most seventy five pitches.

Maybe he's not pitching third time around a line, oh every six or seventh day.

That's like interference with greatness right there?

Now, listen, I'm happy you've brought this subject up because I have a greater appreciation for Davy.

Now that's all I mean.

Like you said, I mean, you're saying things that kind of remind me of like a lot of things that I had done, because I would pay attention with the three run lead for ast guy gets on, you know, get get the dude out of there.

If I failed to do.

That in situations, I'd get upset with myself because I was I asleep at the switch?

Did I miss something right here?

All that little nuance that you're talking about there that he did is very relevant.

And you do build up cachet with your group.

And it's not like you're painting to the by any means.

These guys have already pitched really well.

They've had a great night.

Let him go home having a great night and not leaving the ballpark with a less dand feeling after they were so spectacular.

So little moments like that, if you're really paying attention and understand human nature, know your guys, et cetera, you could make these kind of moves that are kind of subtle that nobody really truly ever talks about.

But you know, make a difference obviously for the team and then individually because long term you're gonna get some really good work out of these guys because they know they us the manager taking.

Care of them.

Well, one thing I appreciate Joe is he always spoke his mind.

You know, it's something we've lost in the game today, not just as you mentioned the characters in the game, but for managers who are willing to go out there almost on an island and just tell you this truth.

And that was Davey Johnson, real quick, famous story.

He actually double switched Daryl Strawberry out of that Game six of the World Series, so his best lugger is tied the ninth inning and to move the pitcher spot, he took Strawberry out of the game.

And after the game, one of the classic World Series games in baseball history, the met's coming from behind, Buckner makes the error.

Clubhouse is going nuts after the game, and Darryl Strawberry ripped his manager.

That's a terrible mistake, taking me out of the.

Game, And of course Davy being Davy, goes right back after him and essentially says, you know what, After a few years, maybe Darryl can be managerial material, But right now he's thinking about himself and I'm thinking about what I need to do two or three innings ahead.

That stuff doesn't happen anymore.

No, it can't happen anymore.

I mean, oh my god, the whole team would rally against the manager.

If you said that.

Then the player that said that would have what twenty five allies, and probably one of the trainers, the massage guy, the pilates dude, all would be on the side of the players.

So no, you can't.

You can't speak so openly and freely anymore.

We talk about it, the truth tellers, and I know truth comes in different shapes and sizes.

It could be disguised, is biased it sometimes, But I love the truth tellers, man.

And that we were surrounded by them.

And I've in our book, the Book of Joe We you know, I talk about Bobbaloo.

Bob clear my god, man, if you want your hair party, you don't even need a comb.

Just have a controversial conversation with Bobba Looo and your hair would come back part it.

God, I love that stuff, and that's what's missing everybody always having to parse the truth and really stay away from trying to hurt somebody's.

Feelings even though they need to be told.

Last point on that is like, but it read a great line, which I've always tried to consider honesty without compassion equals cruelty.

So you got to know the guys that you could like shoot between the eyeballs and they'll be able to they'll take it, and there's others that if you do, they're just gonna crumble.

So you have to like be honest, but maybe not as severely honest.

With certain people.

And I think there's too much of that going on today.

Well, speaking of great lines, Joe, it's time for you to give us some truth telling here to take us home on this edition of the Book of Joe.

What do you have for us?

You're gonna have to follow along.

I mean, I was looking for motivation today and it was Leonardo da Vinci and I read this line from him, and I thought it was fabulous and it pertains to baseball.

I'm going to rearrange a few of the words.

So this quote comes from Leonardo da Vinci, who I think was born in like fourteen fifty two and passed in the early and mid fifteen hundreds.

But Leonardo said baseball fans to According to baseball fans, baseball is poetry that is seen rather than felt, And to baseball players, poetry is baseball that is felt rather than seen.

That comes from the great Leonardo back in the day, one of the earliest baseball fans.

But again talking about the game itself and the fact that of baseball, to me is an art form.

But if you're sitting in the stands, if you're a fan, you see it, but you don't necessarily feel it as much the game itself.

But as a player, poetry is baseball, and it's all about feel as far as I'm concerned, rather than just.

Looking at it.

And that's where I think sometimes the way it's explained today, the way it's manipulated or taught today, you have to understand it.

This game is about feel, and it's about taking lobs of information and simplifying it, doing simple better to the most minute detail, maybe one nugget, one thought to hold on to two nuggets, very difficult to do.

When you're at the point of doing something highly complicated, you need to make it look simple.

Feel is the primary component, and feel is the gift of experience.

So I read that quote, da Vinci's being so prescient that he thought this up in the fourteen to fifteen hundreds and describing the game of baseball.

I mean, that's one thing I love about this podcast.

I learned something new every time.

I had no idea that Leo is such a baseball fan.

Big baseball fan, you got baseball started born in fourteen fifty two, died fifteen something.

I can remember the last part of it.

But yeah, I've always been a fan, and now.

I'm even a bigger fan of mister da Vinci.

Great job.

We'll see you next time, Joe.

All right, brother, be well, thank you.

The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.